Bankless - The End Of Centralized Exchanges | Kain Warwick's Infinex

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

Joining us today is Kain Warwick. Not to fight, but to talk about his exciting new project called Infinex.  Infinex aims to replace crypto's centralized exchange experience and bring it all onchian. It's ambitious, but if it works, could change the way we think about DeFi and navigate across chains forever.  ------ 📣SPOTIFY PREMIUM RSS FEED | USE CODE: SPOTIFY24  https://bankless.cc/spotify-premium  ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🐙KRAKEN | MOST-TRUSTED CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://k.xyz/bankless-pod-q2    ⁠ 🦄UNISWAP | BROWSER EXTENSION https://bankless.cc/uniswap  ⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM ⁠https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum 🛞MANTLE | MODULAR LAYER 2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle    🗣️TOKU | CRYPTO EMPLOYMENT  https://bankless.cc/toku   ------ ✨ Mint the episode on Zora ✨https://zora.co/collect/zora:0x0c294913a7596b427add7dcbd6d7bbfc7338d53f/78 ------ TIMESTAMPS 00:00:00 Intro 00:04:29 Infinex 00:12:44 The Infinex Tech Stack 00:20:45 Optimizing Across Protocols 00:27:00 The Centralization Tradeoff 00:29:04 Key Tech Unlocks 00:34:48 Managing Protocol Risk 00:42:33 Transaction Experience & Security 00:50:40 Patron Sale 00:56:55 Future Growth Plans 01:00:29 Fight Commentary ------ RESOURCES Kain Warwick - https://x.com/kaiynne  Infinex - https://x.com/infinex_app  ------ Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures⁠

I think there's a large cohort of OG-Eath people that have never done a salonate transaction. Their first Solana transaction will be on Infinex. I guarantee you, like, for the majority of like OG-Eath people, their first time that they use Salana will be on Infinite X-Ex without even realizing it. Welcome to Banklist, where we explore the frontier of D-5 platforms eating C-5 banks. Today on the show, we have Kane Warwick hot on the heels of the $65 million patron sale from his brand-new platform, Infinex. Kaine thinks that DFI is already better than centralized crypto platforms like Binance, except the only issue is that all the quality DFI apps are fragmented across the crypto universe, different apps on different chains, all creating and providing a ton of world-class products,

but with dog shit U.S. for users. According to Kane, we are no longer in the era of educating users into self-custodial private keys, or learning DFI interfaces one by one, or chain-swapping our assets to get there. According to Kane in 2024, we have the technology to create one seamless interface, abstracting all the chains, and integrating together all of the Defy apps. The thesis is simple. Take all the best of what Defy has to offer and package it up into a single interface, abstract everything in the background using intents, solvers, and chain abstraction tools like gelato and near.

And with this, you can even use Likecoin or XRP, which to this day have large masses of users who keep their funds on Binance because that's what they do and integrate those assets into Infinex as well. If Infinex works, I expected to unlock crypto for the next wave of users because we already know that cuddling users into self-custody and private keys is an exhausted opportunity. What we need is the next wave of technology to onboard the next billion users, and Kane thinks that he's cracked the code with the technology that we have in 2024. As a disclaimer, both Bankless Ventures and myself are Infinex patrons. We're excited about what Kane is building and how aligned it is with bank.

Thank you for those eager to see me and Kane Warwick go head-to-head in karate combat on October 11th, we of course chat about that too at the very end of the podcast. So let's go ahead and get right into the episode with Kane Warwick from Infinex. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. If you want a crypto trading experience backed by world-class security and award-winning support teams, then head over to Cracken, one of the longest-standing and most secure crypto platforms in the world. Cracken is on a journey to build a more accessible, inclusive, and fair financial system, making it simple and secure for everyone, everywhere to trade crypto.

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Cartezzi's grant application page to apply today. And if you're not a developer, those with staked CTSI can take part in the governance process and vote on whether or not a proposal should be funded. Make sure your vote ready by staking your CTSI before the vote's open. Bankless Nation, I'm here with Kane Warwick, father of modern yield farming, benevolent ex-dictator of synthetics, owner of mansions, and now founder of Infinex. Kane, welcome back to Bankless. Yeah, thanks for having me. Infinex is the tip of the chain, the tip of the Kane-Worwick chain and most recent thing that you have committed your life to. Talk about that a little bit.

Like, what's the thesis behind it? What is it? Why does the world need it? Yeah, the thesis is on chain finance, which I think is something that has been around for a while, this idea that we want to bring everyone on chain. I don't think that we were quite ready to do it. I don't think we had all of the tech in place to be able to do it, even though we thought we did. One of the interesting things about this new journey stepping back from building protocols

and building something that's more like a user interface has been realizing all of the weird coping strategies as a defy founder that I think I needed to live by. So there's a bunch of stuff that has kind of popped out for me that I'm like, oh, wow. we actually were a bit further away from this than I thought. What is on-chain Binance? How would you define that? This is the interesting thing, right? Like, if you talk to a lot of Defi people, I think they would say, oh, no, we've already got that.

It's called Defi. It's over here, right? And, you know, okay, let's break that down, right? Defi over here is the AVE interface and the Drift interface and the Uniswap interface and all of these like interfaces that are individual features that Binance has, right? And for the average user, navigating a bunch of different interfaces, understanding how to connect to them, understanding that you bring your own wallet,

there's no global account or anything like that, is very difficult. Right. And that's why they stay on Binance. But even more importantly, even if you believed that this were true, that this, you know, fragmented ecosystem of individual feature based interfaces was better, we actually don't even have all the features. If you talk to a

finance user, and we've talked to a bunch of finance users, we've talked to people in a bunch of exchanges over the last 18 months, the average finance user, if we walked down on the street and said, hey, finance users, what do you want to do? We'll say, I want to deposit XRP. That's the first thing they want to do. We can't do that in DFI. There's no XRP. Not only is there no XRP, but we actually will then say, well, actually you're an idiot. So go somewhere else. Right. And this is the reality that like most of what centralized exchanges do, we talk a lot about trading volume and fees and all of, you know, those are the things that make money. But what they do, like one of their core value props is they store people's crypto. That's it. They store people's

crypto in a way where they're not going to lose it, right? So it's not self-custodial. It's, you know, a ton of counter-party risk, but it's what people like. It's what people will use. And so we can keep building hoping that people will want the things that we're building, or we can actually ask a genuine question, what do you want and then build that? And that's what Infinex is. Okay, so there's a large cohort of crypto people, the deep crypto people who are very like values driven, even if you're trading meme coins, like you probably still understand and appreciate the value of self-custody. And when this is something that we've been trying to espouse to the world, let's get the world, on chain, let's get everyone some private keys. And I think we've done a decent good job of populating

that corner of the internet with our kind of people. And then maybe what you're alluding to is like, well, that effort has actually kind of been exhausted. If you are a self-custody crypto person, there's not that many of those people, those types of people out there in the world that we haven't already found and put into our corner of the internet. And so I think maybe what you're alluding to is that Infinex is like the next step to getting the value of crypto ethos, like a bankless binance that can like reach out to the next further out concentric circle of crypto people. Exactly. Who are in crypto. These are crypto users. Like they're daily active Binance users. They're in crypto. There's as in crypto as I am. We just say they're doing it wrong, right?

And the funny thing is, right, we've been building for enthusiasts. And if this were any other industry, building for enthusiasts would have failed utterly years ago, right? But crypto being what it is and tokens being what they are, there's such a powerful coordination mechanism. There's such a powerful monetization mechanism and incentive structure that we got hooked on our own supply. We're like, we are just killing it here. Like, this is amazing, right? Everything that we're doing is working so well, but we were building for enthusiasts and we ran out of enthusiasts. And then when we ran out of enthusiasts, we buried our head in the sand and said, no, no, it's okay. We can make more enthusiasts, right?

And the answer is... We simply just have to teach them. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And like, you know, I've said this a couple times, but some of the things that I believed, right, I think maybe even in one of the conversations that we had, I was like, no, no, it's good that private keys are so hard to manage because it makes people appreciate how good they are. And it's like, no, like, that's not how we get an option.

Yes for some, no for most. Sure. And the sum is tapped out. We've tapped out those people, right? If you think about it like Linux, right? There was a period of time where Linux users, and I was one of them, had this view that like the year of the Linux desktop was like perpetually next year. Like next year, everyone's going to work out Linux, right? The irony of ironies is that Linux dominates the world, but it dominates it by being the infrastructure that people build things on top.

of, right? And, you know, all of the data centers in the world run on Linux. That's just what they run on. But we use Macs and we still use Windows machines, right? Like, you know, and I mean, even there's an argument, like, you know, obviously OSX, you know, has its Unix, you know, history, whatever. But like, for a user, for a genuine end user, you need to control the experience end to end. You know, this is like a very job zan thing. But like, if you want to build good software, you got to build the hardware, right? Like, you need to control the end-to-end experience, right? And we have a view at Infinex that if you want people to use crypto and be on-chain, that you need to build an end-to-end experience, right? And optimizing for censorship resistance

gives you a poor U.S that only certain people are going to be willing to deal with, right? And so we are not censorship-resistant, not today, right? But we are non-custodial. And that's the most important thing. We give people all of the things that are amazing about on-chain and we're non-custodial. But yes, someone could censor us, right? Someone could shut down the system. We're not nation-state resistant today, you know. But my view is if we build a thing that is valuable enough, like those are technical problems that can be solved. We can decentralize, you know, that infrastructure such that, you know, maybe you don't get the perfect N-to-N user experience, but you can get something approaching it and we can get better and better over time.

But you need to start with demand. If you have no demand for it and you haven't built an audience and built distribution, then building something that is maximally censorship resistant, again, we've been doing, like in DIPI, you know, synthetics was maximally censorship resistant. You can't shut it down, right? You can't even shut down the interfaces. We've got pinned interfaces on IPFS that let you do the things that will be there for the rest of time, right?

And so, you know, that is the fallback that we have. But we're trying to bring people on chain and you've got to meet them where they live. I want to kind of pop up in the hood and take a look at what Infinex actually looks like from like the tech stack. We're calling this on-chain Binance. Binance has like a front end, an interface. It's also got like engines and, you know, custodial systems. How is Infinex similar? What does it have that similar and what does it have this different?

So what Infinex does that is different to Binance is it doesn't commingle funds. So each user has their own account, right? which is a smart contract or a program or, you know, soon, right, we'll be using near chain signatures so that you will have a smart contract that will control a wallet address on the light coin network, for example, right? And so you'll be able to deposit native light coin into Infinex and control it through this non-custodial interface, right? You sign a message using a pass key, and it will translate that message sent to the like coin network. And I mean, it won't do anything because no one does anything with like coin but like it'll let you put your like coin there and it's a safer

place to put it right because if you're a like coin user that is what you use it that's what you use it for it's yeah like more so than even bitcoin like bitcoin like coin kind of pivoted away from just like a pet rock to like you know it does stuff again now right there's ruins and ordinals and l2s and all kinds of fun stuff that's emerged like coin doesn't have that like coin is like purely an asset that you hold right and same with xRP right but there are huge segments of the market and this is the really interesting thing, right? If you go down Coin Gecko, from top to bottom, go through the 30 assets, there's like 10 solidly that Defi doesn't really touch, right? Or doesn't touch well. You know, maybe you've got wrapped versions, synthetic versions, but like you can't really get them into

Defi on Solana or Ethereum or, you know, Cosmosa, like none of these ecosystems let you do that. And so Infinex gives you the ability to do that. It also gives you the ability to do that. It also gives you the ability to access the features that Binance offers as a full-stack application running on a database on chain. Okay. So an example of that is if you want to margin trade, right, right? So if you want a margin trade, you've got some eth and you want to use that as margin to borrow some stables in trade, we take you to Ave.

Obviously, right? In the back end, you don't take them in the front end. In the front end, they just click a button and say, I want. access to margin. I want to, you know, I've got them ETH and I want to borrow, you know, a thousand USDC to trade MUDang. Cool. Okay, fine. We can do that, right? It doesn't matter that the ETH is on Arbitrum and is going to be borrowed via AVE on Arbitrum and the U.S.DC will then be bridged over to Salana or whatever. Like, none of that matters. Is Mundagan on Salana? I don't know, actually.

Let's act that it is. So, like, I've got Eth on Arbitrum. I put my ETH into Infinix. I borrow stables. I borrow stables on Arbitrum's version of Ave. And then Infinex will allow me to take those stables over to Solana and buy Moon Dang. And I don't know about any chain. You don't know about any chain. It's a completely abstracted way. I said this on Twitter the other day. I think that there's a large cohort of OG-Eath people that have never done a Salon transaction.

Their first Solana transaction will be on Infinex. I guarantee you, like, for the majority of like OG-Eath people, their first time that they use Salana will be on impedex without even realizing it. They'd be like, ah, we're vocation. Yeah, that's fine, because you can get the deniability. Yeah, like, it's not me, right? It's funny. It happened the other way around where, you know, we had this yield farming thing and one of the Solana

guys was like, wait a second, I don't want to be farming on base. And I'm like, yeah, you don't really get a choice, right? Like, you put your, like, it just does the thing where the thing happens, right? Same thing with Bull Run. We've got this mini, you know, trading game. It happens on Blast. It doesn't matter if you like Blast or not. That's where it happens, right?

I've played that game. I had no idea with it last. Like, it's on blast, right? So, you know, these things are happening on different chains. Chains that you may never have interacted with, right? And, you know, it's only going to expand. We're going to have another, you know, 10 chains next year, right? Or 15 chains. And so, you know, almost definitely balance the probabilities your first IVC transaction will be via Infinex.

Oh, interesting. Like, because other than to, like, farm some air drop, like, dimension or something, like, who has installed one of those weird wallet? Like, you just haven't, right? Like, you're like, I got metamorphics. It's bad enough, right? I don't need anything else. So all of this stuff happens in the background.

You get access to on-chain protocols on various networks. You get bridged across to wherever you need to be. And you get access to the features you want. And the features that people on Binance want, right? Because, again, we're not targeting enthusiasts. We're targeting the existing Binance user. They want storage. They want to store their assets, right, safely.

And for them, safe is not non-custodial. Safe is a vibe. Right. Safe is a feeling, right? They like CZ. He does weird... Funds are safeu. Yeah, literally. Like, he does weird stuff. He's super rich. He's probably not going to rug them. Like, who knows, right? But it's a vibe. They don't care about custody and non-custody, whatever. They just want a vibe that feels safe. So this is the reason why it's so important that we have a broad cohort of patrons, right, in the Imphidx ecosystem. Because how does someone who's on Binance get that vibe of safety? They get it from someone on Twitter. Right. Someone on Twitter is like, hey, I did a deep dive into the tech and it looks great and whatever. And they're like, I trust this guy. Yeah. He's a smart guy, right? Passing his test. Passes my test. Yeah, exactly. Like, Hasu's looked into it and, you know,

if he likes it, then I'm cool, right? Like, he's smarter than me. I don't know, right? So, like, sure, whatever. And so building up that vibe of safety that, like, this is a safe place for me to store my assets is really critical, right? That's like table stakes in my mind. And there's never been a defy platform that has been able to accept all of the top 100 assets natively, long custodially. It wasn't even possible until like this year, really, right? So there's a whole bunch of stuff that's come together, pass keys, turn key, near chain signatures, all of this stuff has come together that's allowed us to do it. And then you go, okay, what else, as a user, I've got some assets on this platform now. What do I want to do? I want to do spot

trading. I just want to swap, right? You know, I want to buy some Moodang or I want to buy some whiff or I want to buy Pepe or, you know, I want to buy some new meme coin or whatever. Or I want to buy Sky. Right. I heard that it's rebranding. It's cool. There's this rebalancing thing. Like, you know, let's buy some defy tokens, right? Whatever it is. It doesn't matter, right? So you've got some Bitcoin and you want to buy Sky. That's easy on Binance, right? Binance abstracts the chains away in an incredible fashion, right? So you can do that very easily on Binance. You can't do that very easily on defy. We're going to make it easy for people to do that. Yeah, sell 0.01 of a BTC and buy some depot tokens. Cool. So we do all of that. We add margin. We add some lending. We add some staking.

And the best thing is each of these marginal things that we add, each new feature that we add, not only are there like 10 amazing solutions that exist for it, right? You know, whether it's LRTs, LSTs, you know, all kinds of stuff. But it costs us nothing. Right. The integration. We're not building protocols. Protocol's already there, right?

If I already's built the value. It's there. You're just packaging it and selling it to the customer. Exactly. So you mentioned like there's 10 different offerings, often of the same type in crypto. There's like five different ways, five different platforms to go margin long. How do you manage that hairiness in the back end, right? Like whether you want to deposit into AVE or compound or any other lending protocol might be determined

by the yields. Maybe Morpho is giving the better yields today. How do you like package up and make sure you're actually offering the best in that one moment that Defi is offering? How do you manage this complexity? Yeah, it's a very good question, both from like a user perspective and I think also like a philosophical perspective as well. What are we optimizing for? This is the other reason why it's so important. We have a broad range of patrons who are, you know, governing the system because we need as much input as possible into this process. We don't want to be necessarily, you know, kingmakers or picking winners. I think in the short term, Lindy is probably the biggest determinant for me, right? Like, if I were the benevolent dictator of Infinex and I could just make decisions and do whatever I wanted,

I would pick something like Ave for reasons, right? Because, you know, and probably I'd pick something like Ave on, you know, mainnet and arbitrum. Like the place where it has the most depth, the most assets, you know, to make it easy, right? Because there's an argument that if Binance builds a feature and it breaks in, you don't lose money by doing the thing, right? Like you kind of can't, you can lose money in Binance, but not that way, right? You're probably not going to lose money by clicking a button and Binance, you know, nukes the, you know, 8th or whatever, right? Like they do some weird thing where they pay too high gas fee or something like that. That's on them, right? So, this is different because it's non-custodial. And so Infinex is, you know,

not necessarily covering your losses. So we probably in the early phase need to optimize for safety over anything else, right? You know, building up a reputation for safety and also building up a reputation for letting the user opt in. You know, all of the things that you do as an Infinex user, you opt into. You upgrade your account. No one else can upgrade to your account. You have an account that is a, you know, perfect blank slate when you first get it set up. It doesn't connect to anything. The only way that you can lose that money is if that account itself is hacked, right? But it's not connected to AVE, it's not connected to Uniswob, it's not connected anywhere, right? And then you go, okay, I want to do Uniswap. Opt-in. I want to do Avey, opt-in. And you choose, right?

So if you want to enable Cream Finance 3, right? Like, I mean, you should know what you're doing, right, first of all. And there'll be some disclaimers around like, hey, just a heads up. You are going to lose all of your money here. This thing gets hacked every single time. time, right? You know, and so those are the types of things that we go to balance. Sure, sure. Is there a world where, like, maybe I'm like, there's like 18 different platforms in crypto and maybe I'm coming in with size. Maybe I'm like actually going to like kind of nuke the order books if you put me into one order book. So maybe is there a world where you actually kind of like spread my order across three different service providers, back end service providers? So here's maybe a similar answer, but for a different use case, right?

Which is, let's say you have size, right? Let's say you have $10 million and you are, borrowing stables against ETH. Right. Right. There's probably four or five different places where there's enough liquidity that you can do that, you know, comfortably. But the API fluctuates. Right.

Right. And maybe there's an opportunity to offload a mill or two of that to arbitrum because of reasons or optimism or base or blast or whatever. You probably can't take the whole 10 mil, but maybe you can offload 20% of it because there's enough of a delta in the interest rate that you're paying that it's worth it. Right. So that exists, right? You've got all those venues. You, as the user, can opt into which ones you're okay with, right? And you might say, listen, cream finance, no, thanks. I don't want that. I don't want cream finance on blast, right? But I'm happy to do Maker. I'm happy to do Sky, right? I'm happy to do Ave. I'm happy to do morpho. Any of those are fine. I'm happy to do liquidity, right? So I'm happy to do liquidity. I'm happy to do these things. These are all cool, right? And so you opt into that. And then the system, having got your opt-in can actually optimize for you within those constraints, right?

And you can set some kind of threshold where like if the APY delta increases by more than 10% then rebalance. And it can do it for you and you know, you just need to work out what the cost is in terms of moving the funds around. And you can kind of pre-authorize all of that stuff because it's in your account that you are the only one that can sign a transaction for it. And then you basically say within these constraints, these things can happen, right? It's like an intense-based system and it can rebalance for you. So you could imagine you've got a perps position open to answer your question directly and some new perps protocol pops up and you're like, well, if the funding rate is less than X, I'm willing to offload up to 10% of my thing or maybe there's a farming

opportunity or whatever it is, right? And so, you know, that system can monitor your positions and rebalance them for you in real time very easily. And the reason why we can do this and other platforms struggle to do it is because if you want to do all of that on chain, first of all, it's almost an intractable problem. It's not quite, but it's close to it. We don't have to do it all on chain because we know we've got your pass key. We know signatures. We know you can pre-authorize and opt into all these different things.

And so we can rebalance things for you in real time using our backend to construct a transaction with your pre-authorization to then send the transaction on chain. It's just a better system. Right. But it requires you have a platform, like a full stack application, that can be censored. Right. Yeah. That's the trade.

Right. And so, you know, what's the downside then, right? Okay. You opt into that. It's rebalancing. Everything's going great. And then the moon decides that they hate crypto, right? And they're going to come in and they're nuking all the AWS data centers that are doing

crypto stuff, right? And AWS goes, all right, we're shutting down any crypto things and, you know, lights go out, all of crypto's off, right? If that sort of thing happens, what can you do? The answer is you can still get out, right? You can go, there's an escape hatch that you can go directly on chain and you can hit a button and it doesn't require, I can get hit by a bus, it doesn't require anyone at Infinex managing this. You can just go directly on chain, pull your money out. What's the downside? You don't get your magical rebalancing. APY machine anymore. Right. Now, I'm of the view that, you know, similarly to Uber, right, demand is the best thing that you can possibly do in an adversarial regulatory environment.

Creating demand, demonstrating that there is retail demand for a thing and that there's utility for it is the best defense that you can muster for adversarial regulators. And my view is that we haven't done a great job of that. That's actually, we tried the education thing, and then we kind of had this epiphany, oh, no, they're trying to kill us, okay? And then we went from they're trying to kill us to what's next, right? More education doesn't work if someone's trying to kill you. Right, yeah. The answer is build an army, right? Become unkillable, right? And the only way we're going to become unkillable is if we have 10 million people that are doing on-chain transactions every day, and you go to try and censor that thing, and those 10 million people are going to have a

conversation with whoever's trying to censor it. Right. 10 million people who feel like you're attacking their home. Exactly. Yeah. Can we talk about some of the secret sauce, the technology that Infinex has in 2024 that really has unlocked some of the opportunities that Infinex is building? You mentioned Pasquise.

What's some of the cool things that when people use Infinex that they'll be exposed to that really unlocks this experience? I mean, probably the biggest thing is it is a platform, right? It is not a normal defy application where you just have this narrow strip of utility, right? It is a platform where you can do all the things. That in and of itself is quite different, right, from most of what we've seen in Defi. We've seen aggregation platforms before where, you know, they try and aggregate a couple of different things, but this is like fully featured.

We're giving you all the stuff, right? So every single financial tool that Defi has to offer will be there. Is it in the platform? Exactly. And we'll be in the platform either directly or in an aggregated fashion, you know, where you're agnostic to what the best place to get you. yield on your eth is, right? It will find it for you. Now, you may have a preference to not go somewhere. You're like, I don't want to do this thing, but everything else on the list, I'm fine with just

no cream finance, right? Okay, cool. Opt out of that. Enable the other ones, and it will do the work for you, right? And so, you know, turning up to a platform and saying, oh, wow, I didn't realize I could do X, right? I've got this token, you know, whatever that token may be, I didn't know I could stake it. Who knew that Gito Saul existed, right? For a Binance user, they've got Saul on Binance and, like, you know, maybe they got an email six months ago offering to stake it for them, but they didn't see it or like, you know, they don't know what that means. They don't know what that means. It was weird. And like, so there's a discovery problem. Exactly. Yeah. So there's a thing where it's like, we're going to give you all of the things

that you want in a single platform, right? And the amazing thing for Defi, if you, you know, kind of take that to its logical conclusion is that a new DFI primitive doesn't need to build demand side, right, and build distribution for whatever it is doing, right? Especially things like a novel instrument. It's kind of insane that someone's like, oh, we've built this new VIX protocol. And then they're like, and we're standing up our own interface and hoping that people come and use it. Please come to, take your money out of this other interface and deposit it into our interface. Madness. It's utter madness. Only enthusiasts would do that. And even enthusiasts are over it. Right. Even enthusiasts are like, honestly, this is dumb, right?

And so if as an enthusiast, I turn up and there's a little banner that says, hey, there's a new Bitcoin Vix token. And I'm like, oh, cool. Okay. Like, and maybe it's only, you know, one in 50 people notice or care, right? But it's there. I don't need to stumble upon some new interface, right? So that's the primary thing is that we will be a distribution channel for all of the things in defy for all of the chains all the protocols will be there. The other thing is that if you have a platform like that that can communicate with you, and this is madness, honestly, but no one can communicate with defy people. The amount of time, like it happened to me literally two days ago, someone posted a message in a telegram group being like, hey, is Kane in this telegram group? Because I think I found a thing

on chain that he should look at, right? And like, it turned out to not be me, but it's like, the fact that it wasn't me was actually worse, because now we don't know who it was, right? It's some person with an E&S that did something four years ago or whatever, and the money is still sitting there and someone's like, hey, I stumbled across this thing, like, you've got money sitting there. That's crazy. No one knows how to get in touch with this person. Right, right? Like, if that were on Infinex, you'd be getting an email or a push notification or a banner when you logged in being like, hey, by the way, you left all your money in cream finance. You might want to take it out. Right. Right. So there's an element of discovery and having a platform that has the ability to communicate that is monitoring and knows what you do and can tell you, hey, there's a new air drop. Right. Like the fact that, you know, I mean, bankless does this, right? And I think it does a good job of notifying people of air drops. But like that should be a feature in a platform. It shouldn't be a standalone product. Right. And it kind of is with bankless, right?

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by like allowing, not necessarily like showing open the doors to like the deepest, most degenous corners of defy because most of those corners are bad UX. Like that's where you kind of lose the money or the products don't work or something, the experimental corners of defy. Yeah. Infinex is itself experimental in that no one has done this before,

but I don't think you guys are incorporating the experimental edges of defy. And we probably won't until, you know, something gets to a level of traction, right? Some sort of lindy. Yeah, but, you know, we also might, right? You know, there's a bunch of platforms right now that are trying to solve the misaligned incentives in pump. Right?

Some are built by great teams. Like, they're good teams with good incentives. There's very little reason to not enable something like that in my mind, right? Now, there's a question of, like, token curation and, you're solving that. But I think, you know, realistically, and this is the thing, right, if something launches that has solved some of the misalignment in Pump. Dot Fun, right? We can roll that out in a week. Right. Like, if we're really under pressure and we're like, okay, we need to enable this.

Our users are screaming for it. You can roll that out in a week. Binance can't build a meme coin launch. Like, they can't even build it anyway, but even if they really wanted to incorporating something on PumptoFund, it's just not viable for them, right? Right. Because Binance has to bootstrap its own product, his own internal self. They'd have to build some kind of centralized wrapper around it and, you know, it would be janky. And, you know, like even I look at Cracken, you know, I'm an OG Cracken customer. And I was following along with the trials and tribulations of the Cracken eith staking journey, right?

They must have spent ungodly amounts of money rolling that out, right? I don't know if they'll ever get R.I. on it, right? Like, especially at 4%. So, you know, Infinex can roll out 10 different versions of ETH staking for like 20 bucks. Right. Right. In 20 minutes. It's just so easy, right?

They can be tokenized. You can wrap your ETH. You can, you know, do it on multiple chains. You can, you know, have an aggregator. Like, there's so many things that we can do. And one thing that DFI does incredibly well is it makes the interfaces open and it makes, you know, the ability to compose it. Right. Incredibly easy, right?

And so this is kind of one of the ironies, I guess, of Infinex, right? Infinex itself is not composable. Right. It leverages the composability of the protocols to allow for rapid integrations and rapid rollout of features. Right. Infinex itself is a walled garden that leverages the open jungle of Defi. Yeah, exactly. And again, if you don't like that, that's okay, right?

But you've still got AVE. Right. You still go to the AVE interface or the Sky interface or whatever, right? Like, that's the fallback in my mind. And, you know, I think the funny thing is, there's a lot of enthusiasts that are like, no, no, I prefer this, right? It's cope. It's 100% cope, right?

You don't prefer having 25 tabs open and going to whichever tab you need to go to and figuring out which network you connected to. And then Phantom is blocking Metamot. Like, no one prefers that. That's actually insane to say that someone prefers that. It's just what you're used to. It's what you're used to. And it's also how you made a lot of money. Right.

Right. And so, you know, we got rewarded. with a lot of money for doing things that were kind of insane and we're like, these must be good things. This is the right way to do it, right? And now I think there'll be a new way to do it. And so, you know, a lot of the people who, I mean, even to your point with yourself, right, like, you've collapsed your defy activities. I bet you would do more stuff if it wasn't such a nightmare to do it. It was just there and you're like, yeah, click one button. Okay, I'll check out this new thing. This looks cool. Like, it looks cool. I can see what it does. Okay. Like, click a button.

and put some meat in there. Let's see. You know, that discovery and curation side of things, I think it'll open up a longer tale of things that is just hard for, you know, a modern defy OG to maintain, you know. I probably would have bought Mood Dang a lot sooner had I not had to be concerned about like researching where the token is and how to get my ass. Now I kind of need to know. It's funny. I was so busy in Singapore. I looked it up. It came out on the 18th, which is, I guess, like, 11 days and no, almost two weeks ago, right? It was right in Singapore. Singapore was so insane. I saw it, and I saw the memes popping up, and I was like, I'm going to regret this, but like, I just had no time. I was like so focused. And then today

I was like, huh, okay, 250 mil market cap, yeah. I was sharing Mooding memes with a friend, a crypto friend five or six days ago. Yeah. And we just, neither of us thought like, hey, maybe maybe I should monetize the idea. There's a token out here somewhere. Didn't think about it. Look, I mean, who knows, there's probably 10 Mudang tokens, right? And like, same thing. You know, I bought, I remember when I was on my meme coin arc, I bought the Dgen on Solana. There was a DGEN token on Salana before the base DGN token.

And then when the base one came out, I faded it because I was like, I've already got that. Right, right, right. And then the DGN on Salana rugged and the base wrote. And I was like, yeah, like, this is a hard game. It's not as easy. It's not as easy as it was. Talk to me about the transaction experience. Because with Infinex, you're not logging in with your Metamask, you're not signing in with Rabi, you're not connecting your ledger.

But there are transactions happening. Talk to me about how that whole system works. So we use a system of relays and things like Gelato, various RPC providers, to land transactions, whether it's on Solano or one of the other EVM chains. And from a user perspective, you sign a message with your POSkey, which goes to Tern Key, which unlocks your private key, that only your PASC key can unlock. What's Apasky? What's Turnkey? What are these things? Sure. Sure. So Apasky is Web 2's response to all of the cool stuff that we built in Web 3, in my opinion, right? Like, obviously there's very smart people in Web 2. They've got huge problems in terms of authentication, right? Authentication has been a nightmare for decades now, right? And, you know, there are billions and billions of dollars at stake for these giant, you know, big tech companies to solve authentication. Like, how do I authenticate a user? The Fido Alliance has landed on POSCES as a solution, right? Like a technical standard. It's a technical standard, but it's a standard that they've all adopted. And like people are, look, it's not, this is actually really funny, right? So it's not for everyone, right? And in fact, for some people, it's really not for them. So we had that conversation with the Vitalik, right?

And I was like, Vitalik, I'm building a new thing. Please, will you try it, right? And, you know, true to his word, he did. Someone actually asked me on another podcast. Like, do you think that Vitalik will change his approach to Defi after all of you guys had that conversation with him and put some pressure to maybe be more supportive of Defi founders, right? Like both in private and publicly. And, you know, I said to a few people after that conversation, you know, I've spoken to Fatalik a few times. And my sense is that like once he's processed something, right, and it took like, you know, a few minutes of like thinking about it, right? But, you know, I could see the cogs turning, right? And once he's processed something and,

understood that, like, it is, you know, internally consistent and, like, makes logical sense from to do that. The piece fits. Yeah. Like, then he's like, click, okay, I missed that, right? And I was like, better late than never, right? So I was cautiously optimistic, right? But I was like, I really want to see some, you know, behavioral change, right? Like, it's easy to say, yeah, I'm going to do more stuff. But, you know, will you actually deliver on it? And he's a busy guy, right? Like, you know, it's not easy, right? He's out there advocating, you know, for a theorem to nation state leaders and stuff, right? Like, so, you know, it's not the easiest thing to do, but I think it's an important thing

to do, and I really was hopeful that he would. And so he was like, hey, I'm going to check out this Infinex thing. And the funny thing is that his setup is, as you can imagine, not super standard, right? He's not using an iPad. And POSKis just didn't work, right? And so there are edge cases in POSKEs, and he was kind of like, this POS-Kee thing is not, like, working for me, right? I would expect whatever, however, Paskey's work to be, if they're going to be incompatible with something, it's going to be incompatible with like the Fort Knox of crypto.

Yeah, exactly. It was kind of interesting, right? It's like if you're on that bleeding edge. And I was really skeptical of POSC keys at first, right? Like when our engineering team. Are PASC keys just like web two private keys? Yes. Their private keys. Virtual private keys in a password manager? Literally that's it. Or like in a secure enclavement on the device in the operating system as well. You know, so there's whether it's Android phones or iOS phones. It's been incorporated. Like, it's fully incorporated into the platforms. And so it's just a cryptographic key. Right. And so you have a cryptographic key that can sign a message, and we then take that

sign message that you must physically have on your device, right, in order for that to work. And you go and sign the message and send it to an MPC network, right? They can then unlock your actual Ethereum private key or Solana private key and then sign a message that can be broadcast to the chain. And the MPC network is the thing that can unlock that can access a private key without it being custodial. Correct, yeah. So the MPCN key. This is turn key, which is made by the X-Coyne-based custody team.

Okay. So, you know, we're very happy with that as like the translation layer between PAS keys. And, you know, a lot of this stuff is going to converge over time. Pass-keys will be able to sign messages and you'll be able to store a private key inside of a pass-key. Like, there's some cool stuff that's coming, you know, probably going to take like 18 to 24 months. Yeah. But for now, we have this translation layer. And so you have a PASCII on your device that provided your device is secure.

And most likely it's secured via iCloud behind Face ID or whatever. You can unlock that device, sign a message. It sends it to the NBC network. It unlocks your private key. Private key signs another message, broadcast to the chain. And now you own Moudang. Congratulations. Billions of dollars of security research.

So I can securely and non-gustodial buy. Right. Yes. Exactly. A tiny hippo. So, but the cool thing about it is that you click one button, right? You see a thing. There's a banner that says, hey, mu dang.

And you're like, this. Fuck yes. Yes. Bang. You're like, all right. And it's like, I don't even care what assets of mine you're using, right? You're just like, YOLO, I want some of that, right? And so, you know, it will go and figure out the cheapest route for you and say, okay,

let's, you know, pull, you've got some, you've got $100 with a USDT on Tron. right and we pull it off and we send it over to wherever mu-dang lives and now you're sorted okay so in that example does the $100 of u s t on tron is that the actual funds that ultimately gets transported over to the right chain to actually buy the mudd-d-ing or is there an abstraction happening somewhere the answer is maybe one pocket in one pocket out yeah it's probably going to be an intense based system right so that hundred dollars with the uset will probably get sent to some kind of solver network In that case, I would say, yes, it is the $100. Yeah, like, and it gets sent there, and then they go and do some stuff off chain or buy it on finance or whatever.

And then, you know, your address on, let's say it's on Solana, right? I really should check out where it. It's funny. It's weird because I was literally, like, I looked up the market cap. I looked up all this stuff on Coin Gecko this morning, but I don't remember looking at which network it was on. But anyway, so, yeah, it will do that for you, basically. And so you have a thing that you want to do, right? And in Web 2 land, you know.

It sounds a lot. It's on Solana. It's on Falana. Yeah, I figured. Of course. But I think it was launched from not pumped up fun. I think it was launched from dumpy dot... I'm seeing it on Pump. Dunfun Fun.

Oh, okay. All right. Yeah, Pump up fun. I mean, well, is that the real Moudang? It's got the $250 million market account. I check that. Okay. Nice.

That's nice. I know how to not get rugged. So there's a thing that you want to do. There's a job that you want, which is owning Moudang. And the system. should be able to solve it for you, right? And because we are a rich, full-stack application, we can solve that for you in a multitude of different ways. Okay. Describe the patron sale. So this is something that just got finished. What was it?

What does it do? What's the mechanism? Describe that part of this journey. Yeah. So I think our view was that we wanted to have as many people be bought into this journey as possible, right? We wanted as wide a distribution, you know, this is an attention game, right? And in my experience, people pay more attention to things that they have some kind of token ownership of, right? Whatever it is. If you own the token, you're going to pay attention to it. And so we created this, you know, I guess like NFT, right, that you could own and show your patronage of this platform. Right.

And, you know, it was fairly successful, I would say. You know, we tried to balance a bunch of different factors. But we got, I want to say, maybe three. hundred to 500 of the, you know, prominent people in the crypto community as patrons, which was what we were hoping for. Because, you know, as I said at the beginning, those are the people that are going to be using Infinex and talking about the fact that they use it, it works, they've looked at the tech, you know, whether they're a security researcher or a defy integrator or a protocol builder or whatever it is, they're going to have some angle where they're like, I actually looked

into this and I like how they integrate Ave and Morpho, right? Or I actually looked into Pasquis, and I like how Poskees work. I was a posse-s skeptic and now I'm bullish on Paskees, right? So there's a bunch of different people with different perspectives, different audiences that I think it's critical that we have their attention to make sure as we're rolling stuff out and we're building the platform that people are paying attention, talking about it, advocating for it. And so that was the purpose of the patron sale and it went really well from that perspective. And in this patron sale, Infinex sold $65 million of these patron NFTs. What is Infinex going to do with that money? What is that going to?

Yeah. So to date, I'd been bootstrapping the project. Payne Warwick has been bootstrapping. Yes, literally for the last 18 months. And we have 60 people. So it's like not a small bootstrapping X. It's not like two guys in a garage, right? But it got to the point where, and this is, I think, part of, let's call it, the structural issue that we have in the market right now, where, you know, people are excited about. a project and they want to be involved and they can't, for whatever reason, get involved until much later in the cycle. And so I was like, look, I can keep bootstrapping this for a long time, right? You know, probably not forever, but like I could do it for another two years if I really wanted to, right, comfortably. And so this was not even really about raising the money. Like,

I could have kept paying people's salaries and we could have kept doing stuff. It was about the alignment because my very strong view is that in crypto, it's so adversarial that if people don't have alignment, if people don't feel, you know, and in this case, you are a patron of Infinex. Like, you're like, I believe in this thing and I bought the token to show that I care about this direction. I think this is the right direction, right? If you didn't have that, if there was no opportunity, in a normal industry that wasn't full of lunatics, people would just go about their days and they would be like, I have no way to have alignment with this thing, but it's fine and I'll let it live, In crypto, unfortunately, we have this environment where if a thing is doing well and I feel like

I've missed out on it, my response is to fud it. I hate that thing. I hate that thing. I want to kill it. And if you're, let's say, multi-coin, your response is, I'm going to finance a competitor to it. And so, you know, we really wanted to try and avoid that, right? We wanted people to feel like they had a chance to kind of get involved in the project as

early as possible. And, you know, again, from that perspective, it went really well. So originally we were not even going to include VCs. We're like, we actually don't want VC money. It's not about the money. I talked to a bunch of my friends who are VCs and they were like, this feels weird, right? Like, you know, why would you exclude VCs if the patron sale is designed to be like egalitarian and the same, you know, everyone pays the same price, all of that stuff? Like, all things being equal, like, we can help you, right? And I think that, you know, there's a range. of different VCs out there, right? There's some that are like absolutely mercenary and, you know, they are just extracting max value and, you know, the incentives are set up so that they can, right? So fine.

And then there are ones where, you know, they're neutral, right? And then there are ones where they're like genuinely value add. And the genuinely value add ones, I can see why they'd be like, this feels dumb. Like, don't exclude us. We want to help. We like this as well. We want to add value, but we need to be aligned. Yes. Yeah, we need alignment, right? And so again, I think that we were like, okay, you know what, fine.

Everyone gets to play. We're not going to pick, you know, you don't get to play, you do whatever. We'll let everyone play. You know, we'll let everyone become a patron. And again, I think one of the measurements of success for me was like, just distribution. Like how wide was the distribution?

You know, how many different facets of crypto, you know, and like the Solana ecosystem, the Ethereum ecosystem, you know, individual L2 ecosystems. Like we nailed all of that stuff and I think we've got a really good base of support and, you know, it's going to be hugely valuable next year. Three to 500 to 500 patrons is a pretty good base of support. But I think Infinex wants, you know, millions of users. In the future, is there other plans to like grow that base of support even wider? Like they're current interested, perhaps users of Infinex or people that might want to show their patronage. Is that opportunity available for them in the future? Yeah, I think, you know, again, it's an NFT, right? So the token will launch like sometime in October. I think there's like an agreement

that has to launch via governance within 30 days or whatever. So there'll be this NFT that's floating around, right? You know, it's not a token. It's not going to get listed on finance. You know, it's not going to be on exchanges. But, you know, presumably there will be people, you know, who have liquid patrons that will want to sell them or whatever. And like any NFT, it will just trade. It'll have a floor price and people will be able to do whatever they want. So, you know, I think there will be an opportunity, you know, on secondary marketplaces or whatever, whether it's open C or, you know, blur or whatever, for people to turn up and, you know, buy a patron if they want, right? But again, I think the important thing was that people felt like they had the ability to kind of access it

first, right? Like, if I've been paying attention to Infinex for the last nine months, right, it feels weird if a bunch of VCs are able to, like, get access to the project and I'm excluded and then, you know, I turn up nine months later. And it's like, oh, now, you know, these guys are just going to, you know, dump this token. Like the current meta of like, you know, three or four rounds, a pre-TG, the token list on finance, and then all the VCs are dumping on you. It's just not great. Right. Right. So what's next for the Infinex roadmap? Integrations. What's on the road? Okay. Just rolling out integrations as fast as we can. Integrations with defy apps across the team. Defy apps, you know, chain signatures with NIR,

you know, rolling out support for Lightcoin, Bitcoin, all of that stuff. Like, that's the key. And then what's kind of like the longer term time horizon? The trajectory is trying to become like feature complete with Binance. When do you think you could be done? Next year. I think like, yeah, next year, you know, Binance has a lot of weird and wonderful little features. I think that like the key five features we should be able to nail early next year. Once we've got that, then it's sort of picking and choosing which things make sense to kind of, you know, pull in, basically. And then the competition here, you're swinging for the 100%. You're going for Binance. You're not even going for Coinbase. You keep on using Binance.

We have to take down centralized exchanges. Centralized exchanges have to be a footnote in history. In 50 years' time, we'll look back and go, of course there were centralized exchanges, right? In the same way that there were like steam-powered railroads, right? Like, it was a technology that had to exist as a stepping stone to some new thing. And now we live in a world that is in a better state, right? But we couldn't have gotten there without. going through centralized exchanges. So they served a purpose. They had an ecological niche that was very important for a period of time, and now we need to kill them. Can if people are peaked by Infinex, they haven't opened it up yet. Where should they go? What should they do? How should they learn about

Infinx? Yeah, so Infinex.x.x.x. If you deposit $50, it's a $50 minimum deposit on any one of the sports chains. You can play Bull Run, which is this little trading card game. It's quite fun. It's in preseason at the moment. It's going to launch on Blast, I think, in about a week. Cool. Cool. Kaine, how much are you clocking in at? What are you waiting these days? I was 178 this morning. All right. All right. So, yeah, we're getting close. We're getting pretty close. Yeah. I got up to 174 and then I came back down to 172. But we still got another week. Yeah, I think we'll get there. I can get down to 175. I'll get there for sure.

Yeah, yeah. And if I need to, I'll just chug like two pounds of water. Yeah, I just won't drink for a day. So yeah, I think we'll get there. It's going to be fun. I've been training hard. Yeah. Have you had any combat, experience? I didn't ask you when we... I mean, I did taekwondo and karate growing up. But, you know, like, I was, until I was, like, 12 or something like that. And then I boxed a little bit in high school for, like, you know, not even... It was like an elective sport you could do. So, you know, and again, never, like, been in a match, right?

I've never been in a televised fight, I would say. No, no, I almost was there. And then I wrote a rib, of course. Yeah. Plimarket has a heavily favor towards game. Yeah, it must be like some kind of liberal... Is it a liberal bias? Is it a conservative bias? I thought it was a liberal bias. Yeah.

That's a hot take. I've always thought it's a conservative bias. Yeah, it must be conservative bias. Yeah, I don't know. It's not super liquid, though. It's only 10K on there. So, you know, you can... Yeah, anyone could move the market.

Anyone could move the market? Yeah, here's the shape up right here. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Kane, this has been great. Thanks for coming over to the bankless studio. And also, I think on behalf of the industry, thank you for trying to take down centralized exchanges.

Amazing. It's a very noble goal. Yeah. I hope you succeed. Yeah. I appreciate it. I'll see you in Utah. See you in Utah.