Bankless - The Future of Rollups is Based | Mteam

Episode Date: November 20, 2024

Mteam explores why the future of Ethereum Rollups is inevitably based. Many people said this was the most impressive technical talk at the Bankless Summit. I don’t know what you were doing when you were 17 but I was certainly not doing anything like this. ------ 📣SPOTIFY PREMIUM RSS FEED | USE CODE: SPOTIFY24  https://bankless.cc/spotify-premium  ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🐙KRAKEN | MOST-TRUSTED CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://k.xyz/bankless-pod-q2    ⁠ 🦄UNISWAP | BROWSER EXTENSION https://bankless.cc/uniswap  🪄 MAGIC EDEN | HOME OF WEB3 https://bankless.cc/MagicEden  🛞MANTLE | MODULAR LAYER 2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle    🤖 dYdX | UNLIMITED LAUNCHING SOON https://bankless.cc/dYdXUnlimited   🗣️TOKU | CRYPTO EMPLOYMENT  https://bankless.cc/toku   ------ ✨ Mint the episode on Zora ✨ https://zora.co/collect/zora:0x0c294913a7596b427add7dcbd6d7bbfc7338d53f/98?referrer=0x077Fe9e96Aa9b20Bd36F1C6290f54F8717C5674E  ------ TIMESTAMPS 0:00 Intro 4:12 History of Value Accrual 6:43 So What? 11:57 Ethereum Stats 16:51 Sustainable Value Accrual 18:26 Based Rollup Future 22:57 Questions ------ RESOURCES Mteam https://x.com/mteamisloading   Presentation Slides https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XjpJSYqWu3SO0CydTfiIYYHddpvFOSz0/edit#slide=id.p1   ------ Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures ⁠  

Welcome to the Bankless Summit, a series of talks from speakers all around the Ethereum ecosystem, which were all presented at a one-day event hosted the day after DevCon called The Bankless Summit. We're releasing some of these talks on the podcast throughout the week, and the rest will be available on the Bankless Premium Feed. You're about to hear from M-Team, or Matthew. M-Team is what he's known as on Twitter, who is the CEO and co-founder of Spire, a based roll-up framework. M-Team, for those who don't know, is 17 years old.

I actually had to write an excuse note that he could give to his school for him to miss class and go all the way from the United States to attend DevCon and to give this talk about how base roll-ups help eats value accrual and tap into Ethereum's network effects at the Bankless Summit. Many people said that this was the most impressive technical talk at the Bankless Summit. I don't know what you guys were doing when you were 17, but I wasn't doing anything like this. So let's go ahead and hear from MT right now, but first a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible.

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Instead of hopping between countless sites and handling multiple wallets, just use Magic Eden. Save time and get to the meme coining faster. Plus, the M.E. token is coming out this quarter from the M.E. Foundation. If you've used any of their protocols, like the NFT platform, you can claim some. So check out Magic Eden today and watch them become a super Dap and the home of Web3 in real time. You can get there at Magic Eden.io to get started. I am here today because I am an Ethereum bull and a base rollout bull, and I think that we can make these two things work together. So if you don't know what a base roll-up is, then raise your hand.

Okay, a couple of people. That's better than I thought. Raise the hand if you don't know what ETH is. Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay. By the end of this presentation, you're going to go home, fly home maybe, and you're going to buy more ETH because this story that I'm about to sell you is incredibly bullish. More bullish than deflationary money or yield-bearing money, all right? That's pretty boring. That's like trad-fi stuff. I actually don't care.

I am M-Team. I am Matthew. I am the co-founder of a company called Spire Labs. We build a framework that gives developers the ability to make their own based app chains a customizable and composable environment for their applications. If you want a base roll-up, then talk to me afterwards. All right. So to understand value accrual today and the future that I'm about to promise you, we're going to talk about value accrual so far.

So Ethereum has been around for about eight years, and we've had a few different ideas about what value accrual could be. The first one, I think it's really notable, is EIP-159, which is the idea of the burn. We have a multi-dimensional fee market made up of priority fees on top and the base fee down below. The base fee is set by the protocol and burned. The priority fee is returned to proposers to incentivize them to include transactions. Now, this has like a core thesis in its entire value-equal narrative, which is that the eth supply, as a number of eth goes down, then the unit value of each individual ether goes up, right?

As long as the market cap stays the same, that's true. That same idea is a part of EIP 4844 and blobs. The idea here is that Ethereum provides a valuable service, DA, blobs, to roll-ups who purchase these, and in that purchase, what they're exchanging is the burning of some eth. So that's the same thesis, right? As the number of eth goes down, then the price of eth goes up. That's about where we are today. All right.

Not a ton of work on specifically eth value accrual other than the kind of issuance and deflationary policy. There's some future things, though. There's MEV burn where we use an auction that's down here to give the Ethereum protocol the ability to know how much MEV is being extracted by the sequencer is in the system. and then forcing those actors to burn some of that value. Burning ETH makes ETH price go up, or so we think. There's one thing up here restaking that is not a ETH value accrual thesis,

but a ETH-Staker value accrual thesis, right? If you are a staker and are willing to take on slashing conditions and provide economic security, then you'll make more revenue, which you could return to people who stake their ETH with you. So this is one thing that might be, useful to just consider. The question about re-staking is, like, is economic security actually that valuable? Will ABSs really demand economic security? So far, it's been represented, like,

somewhat empirically that really not that much. And unfortunately, not enough for the kind of billions of dollars that I want to see floating across my tokens. So what? So what have we learned? M.E.V. Burn, and EIP-1559, are at odds with the roll-up-centric roadmap. The roll-up-centric roadmap will take activity and congestion and MEV activity and move it to layer twos, move it to roll-ups. This means this will no longer take place on layer one. So if you're bullish roll-ups, then unfortunately, you're bearish on the burn because the burn is dependent on layer one

activity and M-EV. Now, it's very possible that there will be some M-E-V and some congestion taking place on layer one, but unfortunately, that will not be nearly as much as what's taking place on roll-ups. Now, DA is a whole other thing, right? Blobs are specifically designed for the roll-up center code map, and they work really well, except that DA is not very sticky if you just have like a centralized sequencer roll-up. A centralized sequencer roll-up could choose to use Alt-D-A instead of Ethereum blobs.

Justin Drake was up here talking about that kind of Ethereum DA premium. That doesn't matter unless you have, you're using other kind of features of that DA. And we'll talk about those during this presentation, but the key one is synchronous composability and things like native roll-ups. So we looked at all these very cool things, and researchers, Justin Drake, of course, realize something important.

Ethereum is the best sequencer. And I'm going to make this case over the next few slides, but some of you might be asking, Ethereum is a sequencer, question mark. And the answer is yes. Ethereum has been a sequencer for the past eight years. Every consensus protocol that reaches consensus on inclusion

and ordering is doing sequencing. Ethereum is sequencing Ethereum main end. So, you know, you're like, of course, obviously, and have adjusted your question to Ethereum as a layer two sequencer. And I'm here to tell you that we have made the necessary research breakthroughs and the social

coordination breakthroughs to make it so that I can practically answer that question, yes. Ethereum is sequencing a layer two as we speak. Cool. So we decided to call this Ethereum sequencing. No, we didn't. That would have been a great name. We decided to call it resequencing, which would still be a great name, but no, we did not.

We had to name sequencing roll-ups and Ethereum, and so this guy up here decided on the name, based sequencing. Don't ask me why. But the meme is stuck. And the rest of this presentation is going to be specifically about base sequencing. Why it is valuable, and, you know, in turn, why it is extremely valuable and important for eth holders. To understand why Ethereum sequencing is valuable, we have to understand how Ethereum Sequences. This is obviously important. I'll make the case that it's not that important. Today, we use a

off-chain auction called Mev Boost that allows proposers that are granted sequencing rights by the Ethereum Protocol to auction these off to specialize builders that are the ones actually extracting MEV and doing the sequencing, right? In the future, it's very likely

that we'll change that because Mev Boost has a big problem, which is that it pretty directly incentivizes builder centralization. That's why you have two builders. There's things like Fossil, which is Fork Choice Enforced Inclusion lists, and Braid, which is Max Resnick's proposal to do multiple concurrent proposers. There's also a whole bunch of other designs floating around out there that do something along these lines. These are all kind of ways to change how Ethereum sequences. But I'm going to make the case that it's not actually that important how Ethereum sequences.

Ethereum has a few good properties. One of those is liveliness and reliability. This is a graph of Ethereum's liveliness over the past eight years. You'll notice there is no point where Ethereum had an outage. I tried to find a graph like online for this, but I decided to make my own because I couldn't. Yeah, another thing, Ethereum has 12-second block times. That's an important part of its sequencing. It also has other properties that I'm happy to talk about like an efficient builder market.

But by far the best property is what Ethereum sequences, not how Ethereum sequences. The answer to that question, of course, is Ethereum. Ethereum layer one and then plus little text is base roll-ups. The reason Ethereum layer one is such a big font is because Ethereum Layer 1 is massive and has a lot of network effects. Network effects are really important to sequencing. And I'll explain that in a second. But first, just kind of loosely defined network effects. Network effects are anything that make one network more valuable than another network and scale with kind of the growth and usage of that network.

They are good things, always good things. So network effects are something that are really difficult to fake. We can go to another Alt Layer 1 ecosystem, and they might sell us on the idea of network effects, but they would be unfortunately lying. Ethereum over the past eight years, and as the first Turing complete blockchain, has offered us the ability to amass a gigantic network effect. Solana has 15% of the TVL. Monet has like 0% of the users.

Solent has Mert and Kyle. I don't think that's it by it. It's up to you. And these people change the perception of Ethereum's network effect on crypto, Twitter, to something very different than it actually is. So I'm going to show you some numbers on the next few slides and prove a few things to you. This is stable coins. Stable coins are a part of network effect because they enable decentralized finance and open finance if you're using centralized stable coins.

Ethereum has more than half of all issued stable coins. Sala has only 2.15%. Massive win for Ethereum. But don't clap yet, because we have TVL. 55% Ethereum with that big blue one is Ethereum. Slana is over here at 7.34%. 15% of the TVL of Ethereum. There are some other smaller chains.

Let me just kind of reiterate this. 55% of all value locked across every blockchain is on Ethereum Layer 1. That's not Ethereum Layer 1 and Layer 2's. Ethereum Layer 1. Now, TVL metrics, activity metrics, volume metrics can all kind of be faked, right? It's possible to gain these metrics. Something that is much harder to fake is the kind of thing that the electric capital developer reports will tell you about, which is developers. 16.7,000 newcomers wrote code in Ethereum, 2.7 times more than the next largest ecosystem. These are 2023 numbers. I'm eagerly waiting for 2024 numbers.

You'll see over here we have Polygon is the second largest ecosystem. Slana is the third largest independent ecosystem. There are more developers that work on chains that are not on this list than developers that started writing code and Solana in 2023. There's also quite a bit of contract innovation in Ethereum. This is one of my favorite charts for just EVM code,

but 71% of contract logic originates on Ethereum. Now, this doesn't apply to, like SVM code, so it's not a fair comparison at all. But it's an interesting number. Ethereum layer one is still the home for a lot of contract innovation, and that has remained true for quite a while. It's also quite a bit of app dispersion. Contract logic originates on layer one and then moves to layer two. So it's kind of the vibe working from this. Obviously, B&B are Polygon are two of the biggest receivers of contract logic after it originates on Ethereum. One interesting thing is that Arpdrum is like the largest one of our

roll-ups that actually creates apps. It's not base, which surprised me, at least in 2023. The other thing about Ethereum is a massive researcher and developer community. I chose these researchers because I really like them. We also have the entire Ethersearch community of which I've contributed to. Many people in this room have contributed to. It's amazing. We have these institutions, these organizations that work hard to make Ethereum better and

easier to develop on. This QR code will take you to the Protocol Guild website where you can see a list of more than 150 contributors to Ethereum. Now, this is from Stark's DevCon keynote, and the amazing thing about Ethereum is not only this research jobs, but often like practical developer things. People who have tried to build an SVM will tell you that it actually sucks. Building on EVM is way, way nicer.

And it's because of these tools that are primarily open source, except for each scan, of course, and are really, really useful for developers. That is network effect for the EVM, but applies to Ethereum layer one as well. Now, Ethereum is also home to the second largest cryptocurrency. It's natively issued on Ethereum. It is the ledger of last resort. As you heard today, ETH is permissionless money. Ethereum has no VC unlocks, unlike other cryptos. Has a reasonable issuance policy, as we just heard, and that issuance policy might be

getting even better in the future. And of course, has a top-tier ticker. Ethereum is also global. So there are researchers and core developers. is distributed around the world. This is not true for other layer ones who are building products, not protocols. It is translated into tens of world languages, which doesn't sound that important for us English speakers, but it really is for bringing on new developers and new researchers. There's also a global community event, as evidenced by this. I live in the United States, and I'm in Asia, which is amazing. And, you know, one other kind of anecdote here is I was at an event, DevConSide event called EIP Fund, where I met Chinese native speaking researchers

who translate Ethereum research into Chinese for the Chinese native speaking research and developer community. One interesting thing that they told me that shocked me was that these Chinese speaking researchers and developers are about six months behind the chain tip, like the research chain tip. So, you know, they're still learning about things that we publish research for six months ago. The reason for that is because translation is slow and information dispersion is slow and there's a massive communication overhead. I think that's a problem, something we can improve in Ethereum. But I can imagine that for a layer one, like, Solana, they're not only six months behind, they're like forever behind because there is no communication there.

Let's continue. So this is a lot about network effects. How does this explain to value accrual? So value is great. I love value accrual, but I really like sustainable value of cruel, because sustainable value is even better for my bags. The frame shift that I want you guys to take here is think not what you should do for your layer one, but what your layer one can do for you. Stop saying layer two's should accrue value to ETH. Layer 2s shouldn't do anything. This is a permissionless network.

What we can do is provide a valuable service. Heath can generate value for layer twos and exchange receive fees. So why sequencing? Why sequencing? What do I think sequencing is that valuable service? there's a few numbers that are publicly available. More than $1 billion of Layer 1 MEV has been extracted since the merge. This is a conservative estimate.

I believe that the number is probably much closer to $2 billion. Centralized sequencers who do a lot of sequencing in Ethereum today, more than layer one, are absolutely rolling in cash. Coinbase makes more money than Ethereum. Quant funds pay millions of dollars for lower latency in TradFi. If you believe that finance and price discovery will start taking place on Ethereum and its layer then you have to at least expect that such things will begin to happen on Ethereum as well. Sequencing value itself also scales with scale.

So as Ethereum layer one scales up and it gets better and is able to facilitate more financial activity and just more activity in general, then the sequencing value will also scale. There's a network effect there as well. So this is where base roll-ups kind of enter the equation. I just have a few images to provide a definition if you want a real definition. I give a defecone talk on this. Base roll-ups do execution externally to Ethereum and use Ethereum for security and sequencing. This is opposed to a centralized sequencer roll-up that does execution externally,

just like a base roll-up, but also does sequencing externally, but then uses Ethereum for security and, of course, other things. So here's what I think these properties end up looking like. Here's how we like kind of fit these digsaw puzzle pieces together. We have based app chains or at least base roll-ups, maybe a special purpose, all using products, surfaces on the layer one. Sequencing, obviously, oracles like chain link and asset issuance like USDC and native eth and LSDs.

This is opposed to what we have today and probably will have for the next year or so, which is a bunch of layer twos that have their own. sequencing, have their own oracles, and have their own asset issuance, which is like pretty much the very definition of fragmentation, because they all have their own liquidity, too. Well, we can change that. So I wanted to call this slide endgame, but someone told me that's probably not a good idea. I don't really think there are endgames in crypto, only very long midgames. So I'm going to talk about today how we do this. So I just want to reiterate this. Exporting Ethereum sequencing, the product that we just talked about, it is incredibly valuable,

is called base sequencing. Based roll-ups are roll-ups that use base sequencing, as opposed to centralized sequencing or another form of decentralized sequencing. So there are a few teams working on base roll-ups. Tyco wrote some code that was forked by Nethermind to make Surge and forked by Puffer Finance to make Unify. There's a team, Gwyneth, who's kind of a part of Tyco as well, under that umbrella, but they have their own code.

Rise is also building a based roll-up, high-performing based roll-up. Spire is building. building based app chains, and Rogue is building a base roll-up in kind of the purest form. These three on the right are Rise, Spire, and Gwyneth, and the three that I believe are building next-generation based role-ups that have the potential to actually solve problems. So what do we get after all of this? What I like to call Harmony, which has this important, excuse me, this important property, which is composability, seamless user experience and developer experience.

You cannot get a seamless developer experience with asynchronous composability, only synchronous composability. Once we have this, we have a seamless user experience, seamless developer experience, yet we still have sovereignty. Applications still have the ability to choose things about their chain, right? They could choose to launch using a different DA provider. They could choose to change our service providers. They have the ability to do that.

They also have the ability to customize, right, and specialize. Throughout all of human history, we have learned that. specialization leads to efficiency. So David Hoffman said fragmentation is sovereignty. He would be correct if he just changed fragmentation to composability, which is what we're all trying to do with base ruleups. Now let's get a little bit more specific perhaps. App chains are dead, long-lived app chains.

I believe that app chains are the only way to replicate a monolithic user and developer experience while establishing infinite expressivity. App chains are the only way to get infinite expressivity because they give application in the developers to customize everything. right? This means things like your execution environment, your virtual machine, how you do gas fees, etc., etc. So what happens to monolithic chains? What happens to Solana? What happens to Monad? They die. And there's a simple reason for that. Monolithic chains can no longer be competitive on user experience, which will be better on layer 2's. DeBeller experience, which will be better in the

Ethereum-based role-up ecosystem or on scale. It will be a lot better on the. layer two ecosystem. Layer 2s have the superpower of parallel innovation where they can make progress using the unifying network effect of Ethereum while doing independent tracks of research. So we could go down 10 different research

kind of passed on a tech tree at one time, which is something a monolithic chain cannot do. I am M-Team. I make the best base roll-ups at Spire Labs. You can message me on Twitter. It's my Twitter handle. You can email me. Stay base.

Questions. Questions? Who's got a question? And we got a question about a base roll-up all the way down there. Oh, when min-net? When-net? Where would it be in fraud? We have, so at Spire, well, there's already base roll-ups live on Maynett.

Tyco is live on Mainnet. It has been for the past few months. There is a whole bunch of base-roll-up projects working towards Mainnet. I don't know about the status of many of them, and if I did, then I couldn't tell you. Spire is the one I know a lot about. We are live on TestNet with really excellent composability that is one way. So not full synchronous composability, but still very helpful, very valuable. And we are looking to get that in main nets next year.

What does a mainnet look like if you are also not a single chain? Your many, many app chains, right? So how does that change the idea of a mainnet? Right. So for Aspire, that means producing mainnet ready code that is used by applications to build app chains that are on Ethereum mainnet. And then our team is just going to be able to be able to use. like, can they just freely use that code?

Is it a code open source? Not yet, but it will be when it's on Maynay. Okay, okay, cool. So they don't have to come talk to you. They can just use your code. Well, I hope they do because we'll help them, but they don't have to. Cool. Questions.

Questions? How do we convince BASE to become BASC sequence? The BASE network. How do you convince apps? BASE. BASE. We don't need to. So BASE is a platform, a developer.

platform that offers its application developers services, right? Like low block times, low gas fees, etc. What base does not offer, and I do not believe will offer in the near future, is MEV that they give back to builders. They also don't give back congestion fees to builders. So if you build an app on base, you are sacrificing some important things to Coinbase, right? Quite a bit of revenue, in fact. And application developers really care about revenue. So our strategy is not, let's go talk to Jesse and convince them to make a base a base roll-up, let's go talk to Aerodrome, right, and convince Eradrom to be a base roll-up.

And then Coinbase will realize we've lost all of our users, we've lost all of our apps, and then I believe that they will eventually run the risk-reward analysis and become a base roll-up. That's a few years down the line. Question? That's what? One more. One more. Earlier today we heard Eric kind of asked the audience

the question about fragmentation in layer twos. Do you believe that base roll-ups will solve the fragmentation? And if so, how? Yeah, so using some technology that is called coordinated proving or aggregated proving, we can get synchronous composability between Ethereum Layer 1 and Base Reloops, which is like the perfect solution to fragmentation. There is no more fragmentation anymore. To get there, we need coordinated sequencing, which is base sequencing.

That's one of the requirements. And then we also need some cryptography. either fast T validity proofs that can be verified on chain or fast, we call real time sometimes ZK proofs that can be verified on layer one.

We use all of these to do what we call shared deposits, kind of like Polygon Ag layer, but not necessarily without branding. And then use those to essentially allow all roll-ups to compose with each other

without ever touching Ethereum or composed with Ethereum as well or and I guess and enjoy like composability perfectly, synchronously across all base roll-ups in Ethereum. No more question. One more question.

One last question. Then we're moving on to Matt. Yeah, just question. How do the MEV back the applications? Great question. So there's a few ways that we know of as researchers to understand how much MEP is being captured because it's like not obvious from just looking at the EVM. One of these is an auction and the other of these is like using like application specific

sequencing and like just kind of patching over that. that fact that we don't know. The way that Spire specifically does it, not all based roll-ups to do this, is we run a auction to distribute what we call tickets, which are similar to execution tickets on layer one, but apply to the proposal of a layer two block instead of a layer one block. You must burn a ticket to propose a layer two block unless some circumstances where no ticket holders are available in the look ahead, which is technical stuff. But basically, something similar to execution tickets. We distribute tickets using an auction, and then you need to burn one of those tickets to propose a block. So if you end up doing sequencing, you're giving

us money. I lied. One more question. One more question. Thanks for a great presentation. Just to extend on the question from Ken, how would you advise developers to pick a chain to build on today? How do you? On the fragmentation question, how would you advise a developer or a team to pick a chain to build on so they don't get paralyzed by trying to choose one. Yeah, great question. So today, developers are forced to choose between building on a layer one and building on layer twos.

In the future, that line will be blurred with base rollups, I believe. We're deploying on a based app chain. We'll give you your own sovereign environments while still being like on Ethereum by, for all intents and purposes. Today, I would recommend that you build on base or some other high performance layer two and be very ready for a migration to a base roll up once Spire goes to. a minute. Even more questions. I thought I said one more hand. One more hand. What kind of future will make it difficult for base low-up? The, I, like, firmly believe that there's a few,

sorry, I made a tweet like base roll-up fud or criticism tier list. The number one was kind of aligning some of the different base roll-up teams. If I had to, like, be totally honest, I think the greatest risk to the success of base roll-ups is not the success of anything to do with base roll-ups, to the success of Ethereum. Like, if you believe in Ethereum, you probably, by extension, believe in base roll-ups to some degree. I believe that if base roll-ups on Ethereum fail, it's 90% chance that it's because Ethereum Layer 1 has failed.

If you believe that all that network effect stuff that I showed will leave and go to other ecosystems, Monad, Slana, then that is, I think, the reason that base relaps could fail. New projects are coming online to the mantle layer 2 every single week. Why is this happening? Maybe it's because Mantle has been on the frontier of Layer 2 design architecture since it first started building Mantle DA, powered by technology from EigenDA. Maybe it's because users are coming onto the mantle layer 2 to capture some of the highest yields available in Defy and to automatically receive the points and tokens being accrued by the $3 billion dollar mantle treasury in the Mantle reward station. Maybe it's because the Mantle team is one of the most helpful teams to build with, giving you grants, liquidity support, and venture partners to help bootstrap your mantle application.

Maybe it's all of these reasons all put together. So if you're a dev and you want to build on one of the best foundations in crypto or you're a user looking to claim some ownership on Mantle's Defy app's Click the link in the show notes. So getting started with Mantle. Centralized finance held all the power. And now Defy gives it back to you. Enter the Unlimited era with DYDX Unlimited,

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