Bankless - TribeDAO - The Biggest Protocol Merge Ever

Episode Date: January 5, 2022

In the latter half of 2021, Jai Bhavnani of Rari Capital and Joey Santoro of FEI Protocol went to each other's governance forums and proposed the FEI RARI token merge: the biggest protocol merger that we've ever seen in the space. The concept garnered high engagement and a ton of community response, and the formal votes received overwhelming support on both sides. This unprecedented merge is a historical moment for DAOs. The verticalization of DeFi is happening with new 'mafias' emerging in several corners of DeFi. Uniting capital efficiency, values, and communities, we are right alongside Jai with his excitement to see how this all plays out. With new conversations of anti-trust and competition, it's clear that the DAO space is continuing to mature. Integrated DeFi stacks are increasingly exciting, and in this episode, we dive into the details with two pioneers of interDAO relationships. ------ 📣 ONJUNO | Crypto from your Checking Account! https://bankless.cc/OnJuno  ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/  🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/  ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: ⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum  🍵 MATCHA | SMART ORDER ROUTING https://bankless.cc/Matcha  🚀 SLINGSHOT | LAYER 2 SOCIAL TRADING https://bankless.cc/Slingshot  🏦 GEMINI | TURN FIAT INTO CRYPTO https://bankless.cc/Gemini  🦁 BRAVE | THE BROWSER NATIVE WALLET https://bankless.cc/Brave  🦄 UNISWAP | DECENTRALIZED FUNDING https://bankless.cc/UniGrants  ------ Topics Covered: 0:00 Intro 5:50 The TribeDAO Merger 10:48 Rari Capital & FEI 13:37 FEI & Rari Capital 17:14 Liquidity Engines 24:36 Turbo Verticalization 29:12 Aligning Incentives 32:08 The God Theory of DAOs 35:19 RGT & Operations 40:53 The Broader DAO Space 46:36 Anti-Trust in Crypto 52:36 TribeDAO Roadmap 56:42 Closing & Disclaimers ------ Resources: Jai on Twitter:  https://twitter.com/jai_bhavnani?s=20  Joey on Twitter: https://twitter.com/joey__santoro?s=20  FEI: https://twitter.com/feiprotocol?s=20  Rari: https://twitter.com/RariCapital?s=20  Jai's Forum Post: https://tribe.fei.money/t/fip-51-fei-rari-token-merge/3642  Joey's Forum Post: https://forums.rari.capital/d/177-feirari-token-merge  Swap RGT for TRIBE: https://feirari-swap-interface.vercel.app/  ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures 

We are in a very positive sum game, and I'm not going to discount that. But at the end of the day, it is also a very competitive industry. And I'm excited to see how each of the players evolved to try and win. Welcome Bankless Nation to the State of the Nation. This is the episode where we talk about what's happening. We relate it to the big picture items. And, of course, we draw some action items and insights about whatever is going on in the new cycle in crypto this week. This comes out every single Tuesday.

We usually live stream this on the YouTube. and it also goes out on the bankless podcast every single Wednesday morning. And this week we are talking about the first major protocol merger. Can protocols merge? Apparently they can in Defi. How does a Dow to Dow merge even work? What's actually happening here between Faye and Rari? Where are the synergies?

What are the alignments behind this merger? And is this the first of many merges to come? All questions that we ask Joey and Jay of Tribe and Rari Capital. But first, before we get to that conversation, some announcements, you might have noticed that Ryan is not here at the moment. Ryan, the AI robot, is down due to a massive snowstorm that hit the state of Virginia. He is currently in his car at a gas station Wi-Fi trying to talk to me, and I told him, no, Ryan, you cannot come on the podcast without pristine internet quality.

So he is sadly not able to make it this week. And in addition to that, we also had Vitalik Buteran on the podcast one more time. that podcast came out on Monday. We talked about the future of the Ethereum roadmap. What is left? Vitalik thinks that we are perhaps 50% of the way done once we get the merge with the Ethereum roadmap, but there's so much left in the Ethereum roadmap to unpack.

Lots of metaphors and in cool analogies to kind of understand what's left in the Ethereum roadmap. But we also talked about what Vitalik thinks about the rise of the alternative layer ones. In the first half of 2021, Ethereum really stole the show. But in the second half, the rise of the Ethereum, of the Heath killers, the alternative layer ones, really kind of dominated the narrative. What does Vitalik think about that? He also wrote this article called Endgame, which illustrates

what Vitalik thinks is the logical conclusion of every single smart contract platform that exists, every single blockchain. They all are going to converge upon the same outcome. So what does that mean for Ethereum, the one that has sacrificed scalability versus others that have sacrificed decentralization? How do all of these things converge? Really interesting conversation. We also had Cooper Turley on Layer Zero. I interviewed Cooper in person in Puerto Rico. I had a fantastic conversation there that is coming out on, that came out on the podcast this morning, Tuesday morning.

So definitely tune in to both of those podcasts. The GMI Index, another index out of bankless Dow and the Index Co-op, is live. Wednesday, Wednesday is going live. The GMI Index is a index full of a defy tokens that aren't in the DPI. And so definitely worth checking out. I'm really excited to get that launched out the door. We'll have a link in the show notes to check out what is in the GMI Index. And lastly, our friends at On Juno wants to tell you about this sponsored message.

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such a thing without my partner, Ryan. I'm sure he will be back soon as soon as he gets power back into the state of Virginia. But until then, we are going to get into the conversation between the first and most significant doubt-to-doubt-doubt merger ever between Tribe and the Faye Protocol and Rari Capital. We've had Jay from Rari on the show before, but Joey is new. So let's go ahead and get right into that conversation with Joey and Jay about the first ever significant Dow to Dow merger. Right after we talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. Arbitrum is an Ethereum scaling solution that's going to completely change how we use defy and NFTs. Over 250 projects have already deployed on Arbitrum and Arbitrum's DeFi and

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Thank you, Uniswap, for sponsor. sponsoring Bankless. All right, Bankless Nation, I am here with Jay from Rari and Joey from Tribe. Guys, some really interesting news has come about lately, and we are definitely going to unpack it here on today's state of the nation. So just for a little bit of context, in November, Jay of Rari went to the tribe forums, and Joey of Tribe went to the Rari forums. And you each proposed to each other's communities about the benefits of a potential merger

between these two DOWs, between these two protocols. And this was debated on for a little bit over a month. And then just the last week of December, this was put to a token vote for each of the community. And it passed, this merger proposal passed overwhelmingly, 93 to 1% margin among the Rari Dow. And then 90 to zero among the Faye tribe protocol. And so now, according to this merge proposal, these organizations are now going to merge. guys, tell us how does this feel to, I'm pretty sure this is one of the most unprecedented things I've seen in a while. How does it feel to be in this moment in crypto history right now? Jay, let's start with you.

Yeah, it feels really exciting. Honestly, like, this came together pretty fast, right? But I think that like it just feels so right. I don't know any other way to describe it. And I'm super excited. Like, I think from the first time that I, that me and Joey started talking, right? It's just like you can feel the energy, right? You can feel the energy between the teams. You can see the energy on Twitter. And now you're going to see the energy and the products that we're going to build together. And like, it's just absolutely exciting to me.

And I'm excited for everything that we're going to build together. Joey, what about you? How does it feel to be at this point in history? Dude, Jay just did the thing where he said the same thing I was going to say. He said it just feels right. I mean, it does. So, I mean, we can talk a little bit more about like the history of the merge, but the TLDR and how I'm feeling is just incredible.

Like the energy is through the roof. It makes so much sense. Like we're always trying to skate to where the puck is going in DFI. I think that was a big idea with Faye v1. That was the big idea with Fuse that J had, permissionless lending, fully decentralized protocol, owned liquidity for a stable coin. And now where we're going is like,

we're going to make the best product suite for Dow's and for Web 3. And we're going to use Fuse and VALTS and Faye and like the teams are so aligned and the market timing is perfect. Like couldn't be better and I'm super hyped to jam with you all on it, you know, over the next hour still. Totally. Yeah.

So we're definitely going to unpack what the merger actually looks like, why the merger makes sense. But I'm a big fan of being able to name things. So we have Rari and we have tribe. What are we calling this new thing? What's the new name for the thing that comes out on the end of this merge? Yeah. So it's the tribe Dow.

that's like like up until now we've been kind of Faye Protocol and Rari has been Rari Capital and those maintain so like tribe now is like more than just Rari and more than just Faye. It's like all of the products that we build, the branding that goes under the tribe Dau. And like Faye Protocol is one part of it. I'm sort of like leading Faye Labs, big part of Fay Protocol. Rari's still like, you know, being led a lot by the Infra team and J but we're together under the tribe now. Okay, so just to make sure that listeners are up to speed with us, I wanted each of you to explain what your respective protocols are all about and then also explain the synergies that are involved with this merger.

So, Jay, let's start with you. What is Rari capital? What does Rari do? And then why, what about Faye, what does Faye have that Rari really wants? And why does integrating Rari and Faye just make sense? Yeah. So to start off with what exactly is Rari, right? Rari's a lot of things. Let me start with that, right? But our main product today is Fuse, right? And Fuse is surrounding this idea of let's enable any asset in the entire world to become lendable or borrowable. So anything that's on the blockchain, anything that we can get an Oracle feed for, anything that's on chain link, right? You should be able to take out leverage. You should be able to bar against it. You should be able to do whatever you want with it. Really turning every. every asset into a productive asset. And alongside this, we have a yield aggregator, which can direct liquidity into all of these different pools of lending and borrowing that we offer. And we have a couple other smaller projects like Nova, which is basically this like L1 to L2 transaction layer. But at its core, these are all products that feed the main fuse product. And the cool thing about the FAA integration is We spoke to Joey before Fay V1 was even was even live, right? And we conceptualized this world at which Faye could be borrowed directly using,

but directly using the Rari Fused protocol, right? And that evolved into Faye becoming the first protocol owned pool, right? It was actually the Faye governance who governed their own lending and borrowing pool. I was like the first time in history that that was possible by an external token holder group. And then that suddenly, like that relationship only continued to grow with time, right? Faye, again, was the first ones to decrease their fee within Fuse. They were the first ones to initiate token incentives. They were the first of many within the Rari Capital ecosystem, which is why I was so excited

about the Faye team. And again, the big piece and the big, the big drawing thing for Faye inside of the Rari ecosystem is this idea of liquidity, right? It's they've developed a very, very strong liquidity engine, right? Yeah, it has a stable coin component to it. But at the end of the day, what Faye really is is a liquidity engine, right? And what is Fuse is a way to get liquidity on any asset. So these two things were basically a match made in heaven for us, right?

So when talking to the team and talking to everybody about what is the future of Fuse, it obviously needs liquidity in the stack. And that's why I was really excited about the conversations with Joey, excited about all of our collaborations is because that was the last key piece in really owning lending and borrowing. And now that's what we're going to do. Joey, let's turn to you and take this from the tribe side of things. What is tribe and what does try need that Rari has? Yeah.

So there's kind of two questions, right? Because we have two tokens. So what is tribe and what is today? And I think that, well, we can start with Faye because really tribe is the governance token for Faye protocol at the foremost. Like that's what it was when we launched. When I said tribe, I mean holistically the whole entire thing. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And so like the tribe Dow has been governing Faye protocol, which we consider to be like among the most defy native and forward looking stable coin projects that like we're trying to like I said skate to where the puck is going.

So Faye is a stable coin. It's a USD stable coin. It's backed by this really powerful idea of protocol on liquidity. So instead of having like an over collateralized model like Maker Dow, which is pretty governance heavy and subject to, you know, some inefficiency is, I mean, the maker's incredible projects. The difference with Faye is that all the assets are owned by the Dow. They're managed by the Dow. The fees are earned by the Dow. The trading and like portfolio allocation. That's all done by the Dow. And then, um, So it makes Faye an extremely decentralized asset. We're like primarily backed by ETH and decentralized stable coins. So if USDC or USDT was a completely nuke or the regulatory environment was extremely unfavorable, FAY would still be strong. It would be one of the strongest stable coins out there. That's a core to our value proposition. But more than that, what tribe is, is tribe is the asset that controls the FAY parameters

and it controls the FAY protocol on liquidity, the PCV, protocol. all controlled value. And this is a super powerful idea. And it's what Jay mentioned about us being a liquidity engine. We discovered very quickly that our product market fit is actually not just being a stable coin, that it's being a partner to DOS and a partner to platforms. We provide liquidity and we bootstrap markets all over the place and we get compensated in tokens. We get compensated in yield for doing that. And that's how we generate revenue to continue to adequately back Faye in addition to making it an attractive opportunity for tribe holders to be incentive aligned with this ecosystem. So you can think about it as like a two-sided market where we're trying

to create a stable coin and bootstrap demand and utility for the stable coin at the same time as partnering with Dow's and earning yield for token holders. So it's a really nice synergy. And what Rari has that we need is Rari is a perfect product for us because now we can bootstrap all of these long tail fuse pools and we've earned a ton of revenue like millions of dollars from these other DAOs for borrowing Faye and just generating interest. And we're putting some of our other assets into Fuse now. We're actually moving all of our liquidity mining rewards over to Fuse because what that allows users to do is it allows them to lever up on their yield farming positions, which generates more demand for FAY, more TVL for views, more fees for the tribe DAO. So it's a super reflexive loop.

We're going to go all in on the future product suite Ferrari. You know, they're building vaults. We're going to put a ton of capital into vaults. They're building. We're building our first joint product together, which is going to be called Turbo. And we're really excited to talk about that. So that's really where we're going is like building these products for Dow's,

putting the liquidity engine to use and making Defi like the next level, you know, Defi 2.0 or whatever you want to call it. Like we want to be at the forefront of that. Before we go further, I really want to unpack this whole liquidity engine thing because that's something I still haven't yet wrapped my head around. So you're saying that one of the products of Tribe is the Faye Stablecoin, but that's not the prime product. It's a very significant one. But there's this other thing that you're saying is like a liquidity engine where you have the stable coin and it can provide liquidity.

And that's different from something like Maker Dow, which really just has died. That's their one product. their one job is to put induce demand for the die stable coin you're saying um tribe has this alternative side of it it's additional side to not only just a decentralized stable coin but also a liquidity engine what can you just really unpack that what that means for for listeners that really don't uh they are hearing this for the first time yeah so i recently had like a cool like paradigm idea around this so if you think about what's important in web two it's compute and storage you need You need to have like services that can answer your requests and, you know, make your app run and you need to store data.

So if you analogize that to defy in Web3, you need two things. Compute. You need products like fuse, but you need liquidity instead of storage. So liquidity, you can think liquidity as value storage instead of data storage. And that's what's so important about defy. And so what Faye has is we have both sides of the market. We have value in the form of hard assets like ETH, and we have value in the form of synthetic stable coins with Faye. So if you need a stable coin, we have a stable coin for you.

If you need ETH, we have ETH for you. We can put it in your protocol. We can make both sides of a market. And that's a huge, huge advantage because products need to dilute themselves to hell with liquidity mining just to get enough to bootstrap a market. And even then, they're probably still going to lose. But with Faye, you could have $100 million dollars that's diamond hands, making a market for you that doesn't cost you anything or it costs you something much less. And we're actually starting to get token allocations from projects who realize how powerful

this is. Like Volt Protocol, they're going to integrate with us very heavily. They're making a rye fork that's kind of like halfway between Rye and MIM and it's going to use, use very heavily. We're really excited about that project. And we think that that's just the beginning. So we're building a lot of products to like make these services more available to more DOWs. And that's what Turbo is. We'd love to talk about that whenever it makes sense, but that's kind of the TLDR. Does that kind of answer your question? All right.

So the overlap that I'm seeing here is that both protocols seem to be targeting the long tail of assets, where Fay is a stable coin that can put liquidity across defy on wherever it is needed. And then Rari Capital and its fuse pools also can provide borrowing and lending for, again, the long tail of assets. And so what I'm seeing here is Rari is adopting Faye. as this like official currency of the Rari ecosystem. And so where both protocols are targeting the long tail, this seems to work out well for each other

because Rari Capital needs to bootstrap liquidity in some of its fuse pools. And Faye just is better and better and better, the more and more liquid it is. Jay, do you like that description of Rari adopting Faye as its own native internal currency? So a couple of things there. I'd say first of all, like this idea of the long tail is definitely just the go-to-market

phase of both fuse and Fay, I would say. We're still in the early stages, the first inning. I would say that once we've conquered that, right, there's no reason that we won't move upstream, right, into the more common assets that everybody has and into more different use cases for Fay, right? And then in terms of viewing Fay as the official currency of Rari Holistic, I would, I don't know how I feel about that completely, quite honestly, right? Like, we aren't treating Faye any different than any other stable coin at the protocol level,

right? And we have no intention of treating any other stable coin any differently. Like, I love Sam. I love the entire FRAX team. I love Dola. I love all of these other stable coins. What the collaboration with Faye is about is about building a layer on top of the protocol. And that's really where a lot of the cool stuff that, that us and the Faye team have, have talked about isn't necessarily at like cutting cutting like giving fea a competitive advantage and cutting out all other stable coins from the fuse platform it's about okay now that we're connected with fay what cool shit can we build on top of fuse together right and that's what that's what like

the cool part is it's not necessarily doing this like anti-competitive practice of cutting out these other stable coins because genuinely like i want there to be other stable coins oh like it definitely at least over the short to medium term because the competition will make us better, right, as a tribe. Yeah, I completely agree with Jay. We're very focused on making sure that the Fuse platform has the best possible user experience and having competition at the base layer is super important. And where the partnership really shines is that Faye is a completely willing and incentive aligned partner to all of the Rari products.

And like that's where it really shines is that like, we're there. we're going to go hard on fuse and we're super incentive line because it's the same token. It's the tribe Dow. But that doesn't mean we're going to outcompete or be anti-competitive with anybody else. In fact, yeah, I agree with everything Jay said. Like it's not an official currency, but rather like a default partner, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, that does make sense. One of the dynamics of stable coins and well, really all tokens, but specifically stable coins,

is if you have a stable coin, you have the ability to mint it. So tribe has the ability to mint Faye. and again within the bounds of responsibility to make Faye actually like peg to a dollar. Does this power to mint a stable coin in the collaboration with or we're now merger with Rari, how does the ability for Rari now to be able to freely mint Faye, does that impact or benefit the liquidity inside of Rari fuse pools or benefit Rari in any way? I think that like fundamentally, Faye has always been a very, very active player in seeding various different fuse pools, right?

I would say that like us hopping on board the tribe doesn't necessarily change that because they were already super active. Right now there's a proposal being put in place for like optimistic approvals, right, and creating a very, very strong procedure for what the seating of liquidity looks like, what the upper bound of liquidity looks like, and basically standardizing this process and creating a machine line out of it, which I'm pretty excited about. However, I don't think that necessarily what that looks like fundamentally changes. The one exception to that is the product changes that were the products and the protocols that were conceptualizing that will fundamentally change the way that that

Faye is seeded into various different fuse pools, not necessarily from the PCV itself, but rather from other DAWS. And that's what Joey was alluding to with the turbo product is an instrument to basically do exactly that. So what do you guys think are the most powerful synergies behind this merger? What synergies really gets you guys excited? Joey, I'll start with you. Yeah, I mean, Jay kind of teed me up really well. I'm going to, I'm going to shield turbo now. So this is something that we, this was kind of the premier product that we had in mind as our kind of first like joint venture where we were, we talked about this during all the community calls about the merge.

Like we have a huge list of things we want to do together, but this was such a no brainer to me. And so basically the idea behind Turbo is it's kind of an evolution of the MakerDAO model of a stable point. So in MakerDAO, the supplier and the borrower are the same person. Like if you want to generate dye, you have to put ether some other acid into a vault. And then an interest rate that's fixed by the Dow and you get die. And that's kind of the mechanism. So I had this idea, what if we split up the supplier and the borrower to two different entities, just like on compound. But instead of using a money market, you have a synthetic issuance.

like Fay. So it's kind of combining fuse plus MakerDAO and Fay is the backbone of this. And so this is our turbo product and it's extremely powerful because it's like it's a strict improvement on the preexisting model in almost every way. So here's the benefit for users of turbo. Our target market is douse as it is for like, you know, for fuse and for, you know, for Faye, we want DAOs to use turbo. And the way it looks like is, let's say the UNISwap Dow wants to create a liquid lending market for Uni. What they would do is they would collateralize a FAY loan through turbo and they would pay zero percent interest. But they have to put that FAY back into another fuse pool. So it's kind of a two step process. So the borrowing side, the generation side is done by the Dow and it doesn't cost them anything. then they put the Faye back into a fuse pool, and that fuse pool is now a market-determined interest rate that could have whatever assets they want. It could have UNI-Sox. It could have UNI-Sox. It could have UNI-CII. It could have other stable coins. But they're going to have this base layer of FAYA liquidity that was generated by the UNISWAP DAW for their users to go lever up on uni or get capital efficiency against UNISOCs or whatever. And there's also a revenue split. So the UNISW-DOW would actually earn part of that interest back to the Dow. And then the Tribe-Dau,

The way that we benefit is obviously more utility for Faye plus more, yeah, plus revenue. Like we would be earning the same interest that MakerDAO uses, but there's this great incentive alignment, this great separation of concerns. I think it's going to be a huge product. It's really like liquidity acceleration is the way that Ben has been describing it. And a lot of the like, yeah, I think it's a really, really exciting, really exciting products. Jay, do you want to riff on that or add into a different? and synergy that really gets you excited about this merger? What's your favorite synergy that is coming

out of this? Yeah, I think like Joey covered Turbo really well. It's going to be like a no brainer for Dow's, right? Like, Dow's don't actively like manage their treasuries, nor should they, honestly, right? It's a very passively managed thing. Right. So what I imagine that we'll see is a lot of large Dow's coming in, depositing, because it's a no brainer. They earn interest. They get to provide their user's lower cost of borrowing, right? It's going to be really cool for Fuse in general and for phase adoption. The other key area that I'm most excited about is this idea of, of DFI verticalization, right? I've spoken a little bit about this on Twitter, but basically this idea of the growth of the defy mafias, right, where we're starting to see it in terms of the Danny's mafia in terms of

like MIM, right, Wonderland, et cetera, et cetera, right? You have a, all of these different mafias, and I'm excited to see them all come to light, right? You have the Olympus mafia. You're now building, we're now building the tribe mafia. And they are each experimenting with different pieces of incentive alignment, whether one token, revenue shares, treasury swaps, et cetera, et cetera. It'll be, it'll be really cool to see how this evolves over, over the coming months in the coming year and seeing what is required to build a mafia. Is it an AMM, is it a lend to borrow? Is it a stable coin? Is it all three? What else is necessary for the growth of them? And what's it going to take to win it? Right? Like obviously, we are in a very positive

some game and I'm not going to discount that. But at the end of the day, it is also a very competitive industry. And I'm excited to see how each of the players evolved to try and win. I want to unpack what's happening with the tokens, because in this merger, there's only the RGT token is being subsumed by the tribe token. But why do that strategy rather than a token swap where RGT tokens get put into the Faye treasury or the tribe treasury and then the tribe tokens get put into the Rari treasury? Instead of doing a token swap, why do a token merge? Isn't that just like way hairier and more complicated versus a token swap? What's the thought process behind that? Whoever wants to take that? Go for it. The easy.

answer is like these treasuries that we all wield are too big right it's like a treasury swap doesn't do anything beyond like a cool medium post that gets the community excited for about a week and like we've seen this time and time again that like the the benefits of like value extraction will far exceed the the size of any any decent treasury swap right and like this was about going all in with one another and that's what that's what we're here to do to add anything to that? Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of the benefits stem from what what Jay said, which is just deep like protocol level incentive alignment where we have the same token. There's no question. It's like, Faye and Rari. Like it's not like, oh, we did a treasury swap,

but we also did a treasury swap with compound. It's like, no, we're all in, you know. And the other part that I think is extremely underappreciated is the decentralization benefit. Like the tribe Dow will quickly become a hydra of like a bunch of, like, a bunch of different development teams that all have a ton of incentive alignment and all work towards the exact same token. And I think that that's an extremely powerful incentive alignment and regulatory like, you know, we want to create something that's truly decentralized and this is the way to do it. You get multiple teams with different products, all building under the same banner. And that's something that we care a lot about. Why is the RJT token getting turned into the tribe token and not the other

way around? How did that decision land? Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty practical answer. to that. Basically, there's a lot of time locks tribe all over the place versus Rari. It was almost completely liquid. So it's operationally easier. And Tribe was also just a more liquid asset and larger market gap. So it was kind of, I'm just like, okay, let's just use tribe. But that wasn't like a power move or anything. It was just kind of like how the cards fell. Logistically, it just made more sense. Yeah. Yeah. Jay, what about the Rari treasury? How big is the Rari treasury and what's happening to that? Yeah, it's just not being transitioned over, right? Like, how we're thinking about it is now Rari and Faye, we're all under this tribe banner, right? We're here to support each other no

matter what. So we inherit tribes treasury. We inherit everything of tribe, just as they inherit everything of ours besides the treasury, obviously, just because that doesn't get converted over. Of course, of course. And how was this, when you guys came to each other's communities and proposed a merger. What were you guys anticipating? Were you like, oh, like, I hope they like this. I have no clue. Or like, what was, what was the sentiment at the time of the proposal? I'll tell you when Jay, so I think a lot about Rari and I've thought a lot about Rari since we first heard of them. And so I'd actually thought of like potentially some kind of merger a long time ago. And when Jay, like actually reached out to me and said, hey, I think it would be sick if we considered like maybe

even merging projects. And it immediately felt right. Like when he said, it because I had already thought about it and like the timing was like not perfect, but it was like very clear that like where defy is going, we need some consolidation and some some true incentive alignment. So it was like a very radical idea. I knew it was going to make some waves. That made me excited. And I didn't know exactly what to expect. But I expect the same thing with most like high profile proposals that some people are going to be really stoked and some people are going to be really scared. And we got that. And I think that's totally normal. I actually have this funny theory. I was going to make a tweet thread on it. It's called the God

theory of Daos. So the idea is that if God ran your Tao, about a third of people would still be upset at all times. Because like, you know, like it's impossible. We have such diverse competing interests in the Tao that you can't make everyone happy. So you have to kind of try and just split the middle and do things that the majority is in favor of. And I think that's what we saw with the merger. The initial proposal was crazy. There was a lot of questions. We pivoted the proposal a lot to make it really optimal for the community. And then we took it to a token vote. And we saw that the stakeholders were really aligned. And that took work, but it was worth it. What were some of the big things that stuck out to the community initially? It's like,

hey, no, like perhaps this idea in general is good, but these specific things we want to change. Anything stuck out like that? Yeah. I mean, there was a lot of details. I think the communities obviously were like really emotional about the peg price, which makes sense. And some of the terms around like, you know, for tribe holders, we added a rage quit. Like I think that we tried to keep it simple.

There wasn't a ton of stuff. And so yeah, it was pretty much just like figure out where the majority of stakeholders would be comfortable and just like, you know, pivot accordingly. And I think we landed in a pretty good spot and everything went smoothly. I think over a third. of the RGT has transitioned at this point, which is pretty cool to see because we weren't sure

how much RGT was like frozen in random places. So yeah, it's honestly so cool. Like, it still hasn't fully hit with me. I don't know how Jay feels, but like it is crazy to merge two tokens at this scale, especially two projects that pretty much independently had product market fit. Like, it's normally one doubt that's in trouble like acquiring another one, but this was like two totally separate projects that were doing great. And I think this is a land. Mark Moment in Defi. I'm proud to be a part of it. So I've got some RGT tokens. What do I need to do?

Basically, there's a merge website that you can find on our Twitter and on Rari.competal, I'm pretty sure. And it'll just basically walk you through how to convert your tokens over. And it's really simple. And you just press how many connect your metamask and you're converted over. So it's just a matter of sending my RGT tokens to a specific contract?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, basically gets burnt and you get tribe instead. And what's the, what's the, when I say I put in 10 RGT tokens, how many tribe tokens do I get in return? How does that work? I think the final peg price was 26.7 or something, something around there. And that's like hard coded in, right? So it's like no matter when you convert it, that, that's the price that you're guaranteed. And how is that price determined? That was what governance voted on.

So there were various different parties that came together to basically propose that price. And that's what governance approved on both ends. Cool. Fantastic. So relatively simple. One third of all RGT tokens are going to transition over and turn into tribe tokens. I mean, I'm assuming not all 100% will actually ultimately get turned over into tribe. What happens to those remainder RGT tokens?

Yeah. There's this, there's this funny thesis like flying around the RRRRRRR. community and I'm totally not endorsing it because I want everybody to convert their tokens into tribe because then they can participate in governance. But there's this there's a thesis running around that once the vast majority of the supply has been converted, that RGT will turn into a meme coin in like two years from now or three years from now. And everybody who's sitting on RGT will just be like super like I don't know, happy about it. So I think that's holding a large percentage of the supply. But the thing is that thesis doesn't work until the majority of the supply has moved over.

So I don't know what's going to happen. That's pretty funny. Well, I've definitely heard of weirder things happening in the land of crypto, but I do take the point that it has to be a smaller minority in order for that meme to work out. I'd imagine there's some other like messy parts about merging two Dow's, because this has never really been done before as far as I can tell, especially not at this scale, two different Dows, two different discords, two different teams of people. what's happening with the discord? Like is one discord being just like, you know, abandoned and telling, hey, everyone, we're like, we're meeting in this discord.

Like, what's going on with the discords? Yeah. So there's a lot of, there's like, like Rari and Faye are both pretty like broad products. And with like very distinct like governance. And so what we did is we kept the same on chain governance. Like there's a Rari Dow, there's a tribe Tao that are both, or there's a Faye Dow that are both powered by tribe. So there's two different, like, there's two different governor alphas. There's two different time locks. So it's all like just to minimize the overhead

of switching costs, like we just kept everything pretty much the same. And for the contributors, we actually took our Fay Labs internal comms and moved it all over to a tribe DAO server with the Rari infra team and all the Rari contributors and all the tribe community contributors. And that's been honestly awesome. Like it feels so much more like a DAO than it did before. And we're, this is something that we care a lot about philosophically and something that we've emphasized in our development. Like, we haven't been as aggressive as we could be, because we really focus on getting community buy-in. And governance is hard, but it's worth it. And I think that we're seeing the benefits of that as part of the merge. So I'm pretty pumped about it.

And what about like stuff like emails? Is there somebody doing like HR stuff for Google Suite? Like, how does it, how does this all work? Yeah. How I would think about it is like, operationally, these are two distinct entities within this larger spiritual being of the tribe, right? This thing that's a value aligning both parties. So when you look at it, right, Rari doesn't have HR, right? We function as a group of people just trying to build cool shit who are part of a Dow. And we all work for now, the tribe asset to incentive align us all towards this common vision, right?

So there is no merge of emails, right? It's still two independent teams. And I mean, there's a future where there's more than two independent teams, right? Maybe we'll scoop up some more. Maybe we'll build out some more, incubate some more, I don't know, right? And the tribe will only continue to grow and thrive. The Gemini Exchange has been my exchange of choice ever since I got into crypto. I used Gemini to both buy the dips and also manage my regular automatic monthly purchases of my preferred crypto asset.

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of seen this poke that it's head up, this concept of Dow of Dow models in different spots. And it seems like that's what Tribe is turning into. So now Tribe has the Fay side of things and then also how has the Rari side of things. And do you have any thoughts on the Tao of Dow models, both for specifically the Tribe Tao of Tao's, but also just for the broader concept of Tao's at large. is this a theme that we're going to see in 2022. Joey, I'll start with you on that one. Yeah, absolutely. I think consolidation, like I mentioned before,

it's like, where's D5 going? And what we realized is that treasury swaps aren't super effective at incentive alignment. Competition is fierce in D5. Like you can fork code, community. Like, your only moat is attention and capital and development talent. And like attention is hard to keep a hold. of that's like very fickle and capital is hard but luckily like the fadeau has a lot of PCV

and that's our huge advantage and what you need is you need like incentive aligned contributors who are really talented and hungry and i can't think of a better partner than the rari capital infrastructure team the most talented developers the most creative aggressive team and together like with turbo we're getting that out the door even faster than i thought we would and we have so many more products that we want to build to make it even easier for more Dauce to join our ecosystem. So, yeah, I think we're really trying to like skate to where the puck is going and allow for consolidation incentive alignment in DFI. And that's something I'm really bullish on.

Both of you guys have said that competition is so fierce in the world of DFI at the moment. And while we do definitely live inside a positive sum industry, that doesn't mean that competition still isn't here. Do you guys think that this is just the first of many? Do you think other DAOs are going to start to look at potential merger opportunities just as a competitive advantage? Jay, I'll start with you on that one. Yeah, I think it's inevitable, right?

Especially as we like the market volatility that we're headed into in the uncertainty of 2020 in the potential looming bear market, right? These are all good things to keep in mind as you have mergers and acquisitions. happening in the space, right? So I think we'll see both. I think we'll see Dow buyouts. We'll see Dow merges. We'll see Dow's collapse and hostile takeovers. These are all coming for defy. It's going to be super fun to watch because it gets kind of Game of Thronesy. But like I think that it's like inevitable for there to be massive consolidation because that's the only way that people can compete like effectively as well. Jay, do you have any advice for other Dow's who

are thinking about merging or just any lessons that you've learned over the last six weeks or so? and just this experience of merging two dows? Yeah, I would say A, it's a pain in the butt. I can imagine. Make sure to be properly excited about it and that you want to go 100% all in, right? And then the second thing that I'll say, and this is definitely the bigger and most important piece is if you're considering a merger and acquisition, offer or considering going to a governance proposal and pushing it

through, you should come to the tribe first, right? We're going to be the best, right? We're going to win, right? And if you want to be on the winning team, you should come join. us. Is this perhaps tribe's new competitive advantage is they have gotten more experience with merging Dow's than anyone else in this space and therefore perhaps it's easiest to just merge with the tribe? Yeah, I mean, like, that's a great use case, right? It's like you can go build your own project or you can come merge with us. We can cd you with $100 million in PCV. You suddenly

inherit all of our socials, like whatever you want to call it, social capital. You suddenly get access to our development teams. You get access to our auditor. There's soon going to be a case on why you wouldn't join the Faye team. And there's also this other side to it in terms of, let's say you're going to go and build like a fixed interest rate protocol, right? You can go and ship it on your own. And maybe, right, if you don't join the tribe, there's a future here where the tribe can just fork you and we can seat it with $100 million.

And who are people going to use, right? A protocol where you get cheaper rates and $100 million are already there or a protocol that one guy's just shipped himself, right? there's going to be this network effect in joining the tribe to the point where everybody's going to want to join the tribe. I think there's a conversation that we could have here about a historian of mergers and acquisitions in the traditional business, the Web 2 world, who maybe if they're savvy enough with Web 3 and crypto, they might be able to teach us some lessons here. Totally.

Joey, what are your biggest lessons that you've learned in this merger? Now that you're on the other side of this merger, do you have a, any advice for other DOWs or organizations that might be considering merging themselves? Yeah. So I would say I have like two different categories of advice. One is for actually proposing a something like a merge or something like very, very big for governance. I think trying to propose a framework for doing things about a very, a proposal that's going to take a lot of negotiating or a lot of like community buy-in discussion,

try to have like vote on some ground rules as soon as possible and then like move forward with a very clear plan. Like I think we did a really good job given how unprecedented the merge was, but we made so many mistakes. And there are mistakes that could be like easily avoided in hindsight. And I think that just comes with uncharted territory. So, reach out to us, we can advise you. But yeah, like vote on a framework, vote on like staging, talk like at a very high level, try to like iron out the big details before going lower level and have a process for filling in the details.

That's my advice on the Dow side. Then if you're a builder, I wanted to kind of riff on what you guys were talking about earlier. Sorry, I was grabbing a charger. So I was video off. but I think if you're a builder, I would say 75% of token projects I talk to don't need a token. And so my advice is don't build a token. Tokens are hard.

It's distracting. Like if you want to like, you know, hit the market and like have this crazy token and do yield farming, fine, launch a token. But if you're here to like build something cool, launching a token is a huge distraction. So try and actually just go all in with your favorite DAW, wink, wink, you know, Tribe Dow. But like try to get, like being a strong builder is so underrated. Like you can get a huge token allocation from these DAOs and just build your product. And then you get all the leverage and all the power of that Dow behind you. It's more decentralized.

You don't have to focus as much on like legal. You don't have to focus as much on raising money. You'll be taken care of. You'll be totally incubated. And I think it's such a no brain. for us and for like potential builders that like we really want to like talk to you and we don't encourage you not launch another stupin but to use tribe or or you know home or whatever your favorite big mega dow is like go do that and don't like don't launch your own to do one of the things

that's come to mind is that we've seen people like jeff bezos and mark Zuckerberg summoned to Congress because they have for antitrust conversations because Facebook just buys up all of its competition in order to just not have any competition. And then it just becomes the massive gargantuan that it is. Is it possible that this is the same like conclusion maybe in 5, 10, 15, 20 years from now? Like some Dow is just like the mega Dow and is kind of just like too big to fail? I really hope not, right? I think that is a poor outcome for what we are trying to build, right? First of all, I'll start by saying there are a lot of other competent teams in the space, right? And like, we want competition. We're going to be pushing for competition. Right. And like,

as we said, like, it's in our blood, right? Like, we're not going to limit fuse or do any anti-competitive things. However, we will be pushing for this style to become as big as it can be. and doing so in a way that is spiritually not similar to Facebook or Amazon, right? And I think that starts with things like decentralized governance, transparent decision making, right, keeping all token holders active in governance, making sure that they're pushing for a better protocol. These are all things that will ensure that we are actually delivering value to the world and to the token holders at the same time.

Yeah, I agree completely with Jay. I think consolidation is going to happen. And I genuinely believe in a world where things that are, defy DAOs are going to be bigger than would be legal for a centralized company. Like I think that tribe DAO is a potential to be bigger than Facebook. And like we're not going to be the biggest Dow, you know? Like there's going to be huge, huge DAOs. And like Ethereum itself is a Dow arguably.

And I think Ethereum is going to be of comparable size to like the entire internet in terms of the value and network effects that accrue to it. So like these cryptographic organizations are going to be insanely massive. And I think to Jay's point about decentralized governance, like, that's the key. These are transparent immutable protocols. And that is what makes this worth it. Is that the benefits of scale don't get corrupted by power because the leadership has to be extremely focused on writing rules and writing code and being transparent to protect users and to like all the problems you get from antitrust, you won't have with these DAOs because of the cryptographic nature, but you will have all the benefits. And that's where I think the economies of scale really kick in

and it gets super epic. And I'm so excited to be a part of it with the Tribe Dow. And we're going to do whatever we can and listen to the community to make sure we're not breaking any laws. But, you know, I think it's a really exciting vision. So what are the goals for the tribe Dow moving forward. I think this merger still has to finish. I think more or less we're still in the relative beginning stages of this merge. What's left in this merge before it's completed? And then once that point happens, what are the goals for the tribe Dow after that? So short and medium term goals for tribe. Jay, I'll start with you. Yeah. So to me, the merge is basically done, right? There's some RGT that's left to like be migrated, a decent amount of RGT left to be migrated. But the teams are

basically operationalized within this tribe ecosystem, right? So what's next? There's, there's, there's a lot of different things that I'm thinking about, right? And that, that Joey definitely has many, many more that that I'm going to definitely forget to say, right? But it's all under this idea of, okay, what, what does it look like to be a, like a citizen of a financial free internet, right? And they're a financial free world, right? I think if there's a lot of different components to this, right? Stable coins, lending and borrowing are, things that we've shown that we can do well. And we're going to continue to double down on those efforts. Right. So what you're going to see is Favie 2 has like is an amazing, amazing thing.

Right. You're going to see the introduction of risk curves on the face side of things. And I'll let Joey talk more about that. And on the Rari side of things, you'll continue to see us double down on lend and borrow, right? Significantly. We're in the process of working on Fuse 2.0, which is going to have a ton of really, really cool improvement. Right. And basically continue to try and be the flagship spot for lending and borrowing, not just long-tail assets, but also normal assets, right? And we'll continue to do that. But then when you zoom out, outside of, outside of fuse, obviously we're going to push out the yield aggregator. We're going to have a formal roadmap also soon. But when you zoom out, you have Fay,

you have Rari. Right. And my, my grander roadmap for the tribe for 2022 will be A to establish an identity for itself, right? I feel like tribe is going to find itself in 2022 as really, the symbol for this financial freedom. And then B, what else can we do? Right? It's like we've developed our own little bubbles. As Joey said, these products vastly have product market fit. What does it look like for us to expand outside of the realms of modern day defy? And that's what I'm having a lot of fun brainstorming and ideating around is, okay, what does it look like to onboard the next 100 million people and get them using the face table coin every single day? Joey, in your mind, what are the short and medium term goals for tribe? Yeah. So,

I think Jay again hit it on the nose and that's one of the cool things that has emerged that were always so like the vision is so clear like it was such a like no-brainer we're going in the same direction let's just go together you go farther together and the merge is operationalized I think there's going to be some identity building so there's more of like a social component of the merge that's not totally complete but I think that it's pretty clear the roadmap is that cryptographic freedom, financial freedom, sovereignty, like bankless. These are things that we cared deeply about, you know? And I think that like Fuse and Faye are just the beginning.

Turbo, I think, is going to be a great product. And I have this grand vision of building the entire compute layer for DAOs, the liquidity layer for DAOs to be like a one-stop shop for all of your needs as a DAO. And like, you don't need to go anywhere else. You go to the Tribe Dow and you get your lending. you get your borrowing, you get your swapping liquidity. Eventually you'll have options, fixed income, set products. We want to verticalize the whole stack.

And whether we build those products in-house or merge with great teams or acquire early-stage builders, it doesn't matter, but we're going to do it. We're going to have the whole thing in-house and we're going to allocate all of our resources towards that. And I think that that's the way that we win. And I'm super, super excited about it. And I couldn't be more happy with the partners that we have. like we're working with the right people. We have the right backers. We have the right community.

So now it's just execution. Well, Joey, the number of times that you and Jay agreed with each other is very indicative of how these Dow's already make sense to merge into one. So best of luck. And thank you for pioneering out into this brand new area of crypto that we never really saw before, which is Dow to Dow merges. I expect to see many, many more in 2022 and each one having their own story. So guys, thank you for coming on the show and telling us your story about this one. Thank you for having us.

Yeah, we're really grateful. We'd love to work more with the bankless community. Like, I think there's a lot that we can do together. And yeah, we'll be at East Denver. We've got some great announcements coming. Like, Turbo is going to be a huge product. And we have a lot more that are going to be even bigger than that, that are going to be coming early this year.

So I'm just super stoked. And thanks again for the time. This was a really great, great chat. Fantastic. All right, action items, bankless nation. If you have RGT tokens, you need to get those and turn those into tribe tokens. So there will be a link in the show notes to take you to the spot to get that done. Also, I had a fun time reading both Joey and Jay's proposals to the respective communities about

why this merger should go in in the first place. So if you just want to give that a read, because it's pretty unprecedented, it's kind of a, industry first. So worth just understanding what's going on. And so those documents, those forum posts will be also available in the show notes as well. As always, guys, risk and disclaimers, ETH is risky, crypto is risky, defy is risky. You can lose what you put in, but we are headed west. We're on the frontier. We are glad you are with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot for tuning in. Hey, we hope you enjoyed the video. If you did, head over to Bankless HQ right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence.

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