Barbell Shrugged - 102- Are Steroids Paleo? PEDs and CrossFit w/Michelle Kinney and Mike McGoldrick

Episode Date: February 5, 2014

w/Michelle Kinney and Mike McGoldrick

This week on Barbell Shrugged, we hang out with Michelle Kenney and Mike McGoldrick, CrossFit Games athletes. We talk about eating paleo, should you do it or not, and steroids, should you do it or not? Hey, this is Rich Froning. You're listening to Barbell Shrugged. For the video version, go to barbellshrugged.com. Why are you calling him that?

That's what he eats. It's breakfast. Welcome to Barbell Shrugged. Mike Bledsoe here with Doug Larson, Chris Moore. And we also have Mike McGoldrick and Michelle Kenny. We aren't worthy. Both CrossFit Games competitors that happen to live here in town. And they're just going to join us for the conversation today.

We're going to try to keep it casual, laid back, coffee driven. You know how it goes. You ever been certain that your genetics were the worst in any pool? I feel like I have the worst genetics in this room. I don't know. We're fighting from the bottom, I think. Make sure to go to barbellshrug.com, sign up for the newsletter, and we can notify you of any time we put up new technique wads or barbell shrugged episodes,

or if we'll ever do barbell, what's it called? The daily BS again. We kind of got rid of that for a while. Yeah, we'll see. Maybe that'll come back. The quarterly BS. The gentleman's BS. You ran out of BS.

You cleared it all up. Trust me, we'll never run out of BS. That's for sure. The BS digest, once a quarter. One of the things we want to talk about today was how fit is fit enough? You two are probably the last two people on earth we should ask about the average person. That's generous. I think we want to talk about the average person.

If I have a regular 9-to-5 job, if I were a regular 9-to-5 job, how much time should I really focus on this? What's that work-life balance maybe? Yeah, I mean, it's such a broad answer. You're asking a guy with the worst work-life balance in the history of the world. Well, your job is not to be fit, though. The individual, how much they actually feel like

they need to be training. Yeah, how is he going to know? Beats me, man. That's what I what i was this was all suggested by ctp this is all we should talk about my balance changes every like two months because each week i get more training and more how high is your volume right now uh six days on six how many how many times a day you training twice twice a day six days a week yeah what about you michelle five days a week three of those days or twice are you worried that maybe you're not doing as much as mcgoldrick and you might fall behind um i have that doubt sometimes but i keep uh i gotta keep up with him um no i i've been seeing my numbers progress very nicely. So I think I'm doing what I need to be doing.

Deadlifts, man. That's my gig though. That was a good looking stroke. I must say. Is he hitting on you? Oh man. The way she pulls heavy loads,

bro. It really does it. I don't know. I do this little shake before the deadlift. I didn't realize. And people were commenting, commenting on it. Deadliftshake.com?

No, it's a little shimmy or something. A little shimmy? I didn't even realize it. What's the difference between a shake and a shimmy? A shimmy is sexier, for sure. All right. A shake is erratic. And if it's sexier, that was it.

The shake, I think, is a bigger thing and slower, whereas the shimmy is quicker and smaller. All right. Kind of like the difference between a thruster and a jerk. It sounds like a Southern blues jerk. Is there anybody? Welcome back to the Daily VS. Do you have anybody currently, Michelle, do you have anybody currently scribbled on your wall?

What is X doing right now? No, no way. No, that's so boring. It is boring. You're not chasing anybody? What's that? You're not chasing anybody specifically? Just those top three spots are regionals, so I don't know who that's going to be. Who're not chasing anybody? What's that? You're not chasing anybody specifically? Just those top three spots are regionals.

So I don't know who that's going to be. Who was it last year? You and who other? Jennifer Smith and Lindy Wall. But Julie Foucher is back in the mix. That's right. Heather Welsh on the previous episode. That's right.

She's back in the mix. It's a hit school. That's a rough competition. There's a few up and comers that it's not going to be easy. Always. Yeah. Michelle, you know what I would do for you? I'd answer that question like, what am I chasing? I'm not chasing anything.

I'm just running from the ghost of what I could become. What the fuck are you talking about? What is the ghost of what I could become doing? I think I saw a stat today. It came out. There's like 70,000 people signed up already. And that was more than 2011 competitors. How many were there last year?

Like 200,000? No, sorry, 2012. 120, 120,000. So there's already more people signed up than people that competed two years ago. Damn. And it's still a month away. Yeah. And it was still, yeah, you know, a lot of people will sign up.

Like last minute. I think you can sign up even once the open starts. You can sign up like the day before the first workouts do or something. Yeah. So you'll see a lot more people. We talk about this with a lot of games competitors. We talk about nutrition. And a lot of times people just go, eh, they get the shoulder shrug and be like,

oh, I eat pizza and ice cream and whatever I want, Fruity Pebbles. But I think a lot of people are interested. I think a lot of people get caught up in the whole paleo thing. And there's neither one of you guys probably a hardcore paleo. Correct. Correct. Yeah. Hardcore.

Hardcore. Who's that mean? Well, you know, a lot of people, they go paleo, they get super low carb, and they can't understand, like, when they start training five days a week, hard CrossFit, why they may not be getting results after a little bit of time. And you go, hey, add some carbs. When you say it to people, they go, you're right, coach. I don't feel good. But you know what I am?

I am fucking hardcore. You have nothing else to say to them right then. No sweet potatoes can be pushed through. That's when I just walk away. Flick a cigarette calmly into the chest. Michelle, how much are you eating? And how much of that's like paleo-ish? And are you eating bread?

I really hate to assign percentages, but I don't know. You want to walk us through a typical day then? A typical day? Sure. People love this kind of shit. All right. So yesterday, for instance, I had a perfect food bar and coffee for breakfast pre-workout

and then after workout I had protein shake and some carbs like baby food. What are these times, by the way? What time is breakfast in the post-workout? I trained at eight,

so I ate at seven pretty much right before I trained. And then post-workout was about 10 or so. And then- and then baby food as in like just like mashed sweet potatoes

yeah yeah pureed sweet potatoes and like an apple mix or something yeah just to get some carbs and then lunch was

a sandwich with double turkey and avocado and chips double turkey double turkey double turkey I need my protein

on a sandwich is that from Subway were you eating fresh? No, it was from Bogey's Deli. It's the best sandwich. It's the second best sandwich in the world. What's the first best sandwich in the world? It's in Kauai at some restaurant.

Is it spam? It's not spam. Spam and eggs and shit? No, it's amazing. I don't even know what it was. Spam and eggs and sushi. It was so crazy. I can't even fucking remember what it was, man.

It's a combination. It was just a dopamine rush, right? You put your mouth on it. Yeah, pretty much. So I had that for lunch. And then you ate gluten at lunch. Yeah. Unbelievable.

Man, that's great bread. It's awesome. I eat two sandwiches a week. That's my thing. Oh, cool. And it keeps mass on. Are you worried about getting fat? The inner girl in me sometimes, like I got on the scale.

I was 145 this weekend. I was like, I love, listen, I love women. God knows I love all you women but you're crazy as shit when it comes to body weight you gotta just lay that on the table yeah Michelle King's going oh I'm getting fat I can I can see and label every muscle you got just by looking at you you're not fat and you're never gonna be fat probably and I know that and that's in the whole time like since um since ended, I was trying to put masks on. And now that's fucking happening.

I'm like, oh. But I know I'm getting strong as fuck. But this is going on. I know. I tell her to shut up. But let that be reassurance to ladies. Like one of the fittest people alive is standing next to me going, I feel self-conscious about my weight. Like it's not just you who are the self-conscious one.

This is something you're all sharing apparently. It's weird. It was kind of like the holy crap but my strength numbers are going up and that's why. Some days gravity is higher.

I feel like it. Check the weather. That's why you have a barometer in your garage. So you had lunch. You had turkey sandwich at lunch. What about the rest of the day

for dinner I had chicken and mixed vegetables and some guacamole and more chips so it was a chip day I don't really eat that many chips crunchy texture

that's what everybody says and then they start writing it down like fuck I'm eating chips every day twice a day every day for the last 10 years of my fucking life

that's what most people no but I do have two beers at dinner too. And that is normal. So two things, carbs post-workout with a protein shake is what I heard. And then also you're eating to keep mass on.

And like, that's a hard thing to do. It seemed to be, and now it seems to be pretty smooth. I eat grains like rice and bread and fun stuff like that. So yeah, to put mass on, you just kind of add it in. Those things that probably are typical no-nos,

especially if you're trying to follow like a paleo diet. Right. And I don't think this is the way to eat for somebody just after general fitness. So I know we started the show off like that, like just your typical people. But like I'm purpose, like we said, we were training a lot and I'm trying to get stronger, trying to put mass on. These are my goals and this is why I'm eating the way that I am. Um, if I was just training, you know, five hours a week, I would definitely be cleaner with my diet. Yeah. And I

wanted to bring that up just because I get a lot of questions from guys, especially who are like, Hey, I want to get bigger and stronger. Yeah. And then, and then you start giving them advice, like, you know, maybe you should throw some rice into your diet or throw in some more potatoes or you know they're like you mean white potatoes i'm like yeah just any any potatoes you want why do they have to be sweet potatoes so then like you know so i get these questions and and they're like well that's not paleo i'm like it doesn't have to be like you're trying to get bigger and stronger. The people that should be eating paleo are people who are, like, sick and dying. Like, if you're pre-diabetic, you should probably eat paleo, and you should probably try to, you know, get that off.

But, like, if you're, you know, 30 years old and weigh 145 pounds and you want to get bigger and stronger, you should probably pick up the rice bowl. I think so. Yeah. Plus, rice is delicious. It is so. I'm no expert though. It is delicious. The best pre-workout meal you could ever have the night of, sushi, plenty of rice,

lots of soy, good bloat, two pints of beer per Michelle's suggestion. The next morning you will fucking squat a peel, I guarantee it. That's the first time I've ever heard anyone go, good bloat. Most people don't refer to bloat as a good thing. I can't wait to be bloated. Anybody who's felt the go, good bloat. Most people don't refer to bloat as a good thing. Can't wait to be bloated.

Anybody who's felt the good type of bloat and has felt strong as shit the night after or the day after. I'm pretty sure that's what happened on Monday. I'm giving you top secret tips here from the powerlifting world. This is the shit you need to pay attention to. Blow is important for a big squat. No doubt about that.

Not blow, not cocaine, blow. Although that probably would be good. Wow, I'm really ready, man. I'm'm ready i'm fucking ready good bloat i did uh i i drank a gallon of milk a gallon of raw goat milk blow tea every day for 11 days so i did a gallon a day for 11 days straight that's as long as i could hang in there uh and the only reason i didn't hang in longer is because I actually had to get some work done because my life turned into training and consuming milk and food and just like being miserable. But it worked.

11 pounds in 11 days. I did gain one pound every day for 11 days. And my squat went up. That's extreme. Half of it was just inflamed tissue. How was your digestive tract? How was your stomach? Yeah.

Oh, I mean, I don't know. Were you bloated? Oh, I just went to sleep and my wife was trying to have sex with me. She'd be like, hey baby. I'm like,

get the fuck out of here. She's like, I hate it when he gains weight. He never wants to have sex. You're so dedicated to training. I'm in your digestive tract. Hashtag hardcore. I would get that bloat going on,

but my squat went up like 30 pounds in two weeks. I hope it did. Everything else went downhill. At the sacrifice of my love life, my squat went up 30 pounds. Mike, you should know better than anybody that would benefit a bloat. You used to be a bloated dude. I was. With your hockey playing ass. Yeah.

That was all the beer I drank in college. Yeah, but you were strong probably. Beer bloat. Puffy. Speaking of bloating, there's another disgusting story along the lines I drank in college. Yeah, but you were strong probably. Beer bloat. Puffy. Speaking of bloating, there's another disgusting story along the lines of his sex life. I'm listening. Last Saturday, all I wanted was just pizza and ice cream

and I've been waiting all week for it. I don't eat super strict all week long, but I wanted to have a blowout on Saturday. You eat bread, but it's gluten-free bread. So you kind of like, you go high carb, but you try to keep it pretty clean. Oh yeah, super high carb, but yeah, as clean as I can keep it. Just, it varies. But Saturday night I ate three pints of coconut milk ice cream.

Oh shit, man. Ow. Have you ever not slept because you have gas so bad? No. Like, it kept me up all night. It totally backfired. No sugar, alcohol, man.

I would get brandy up all night, too. Oh, poor brandy. It was like a lot of artificial sweeteners and shit. My stomach was so wrecked. Like, the next morning, I was like, like, usually you fart,

you laugh. It's funny. By the end of it, I was like, usually you're a guy you fart you laugh it's funny by the end of it I was like I don't want to fart anymore I'm so tired of it you got tired of farting that's amazing

that's what I'm saying it was that bad after all that Thai food we ate yeah we went and I had I bought a lot of ice cream Thai food

and three pints I ate all three pints Watching classic Oh my god That's That's just too much ice cream I don't even know I don't know under what conditions

I could do that And some cookies were in there too That's impressive I was like scooping it with cookies That's insane I was tired I need Two pints is a lot

I need some calories Two pints is too much It killed me Never again I'm with you on the coke There's no like good What was it Doug No good substitute for Like ice cream Ice cream Like no matter what There's like get killed me never again i'm with you on the coke there's no like good what was it just no

good uh substitute for like ice cream ice cream like no matter what there's like regular ice cream makes me stuffy but then like i get coconut ice cream and i can't stop farting doesn't matter what kind of too much of anything like three pints of anything is gonna wreck you you do that every week you blow it out on a saturday night not that bad no No. But yeah, I mean, anytime I really feel like I need to like reset, you know, like I just like, oh man,

I took a lot from Asprey's talk last weekend and it was brilliant when he talks, you know, he wasn't in line with a lot of the training stuff, more about health and longevity,

which was great. But what I did take away from which are two totally different. Yeah, absolutely. Training, you guys would be a competitor and training to be, you know, for health and longevity.

Completely different. But what I did take away from him was like, you got to listen to your body and like the signs of like, look, man, sometimes you just need like the pizza and some ice cream. Like if it doesn't taste good, stop eating it. You know, but you're like, oh, but it's got no, you know, it's, it's paleo and it's good for me. But if you're not enjoying eating it, the neurological response,

you're not getting what you need out of it. When you're training yourself. Because you're miserable chewing that food. You're practicing the art of being happy. Even if it's kind of bad for you, but if it tastes good and it's making you happy, it's probably way more beneficial. Would that be why I eat popcorn every other night? If you like it and it makes you happy, sure, man.

You get little spot-welded popcorn things on the back of your your teeth i fucking hate that like they get stuck to all the molars huh michelle do you do that not your rabidness i don't know i never feel the need to because i don't really eat that clean throughout the week i mean like i don't feel like i'm restricting myself in any way but i'll have that pizza craving and then go have pizza but then i feel like that's still not what's your favorite pizza you'll see the normal amount though yeah yeah i won't correct anyway but I'll have that pizza craving and then go have pizza but then I feel like that's still not what's your favorite pizza place even normal amount though yeah yeah I feel so bad when I just go to town on something so even after like a competition where I'm like oh I'm gonna just crush a whole pizza and then pitcher a beer I usually like halfway it and I'm like I'm done

I'm fat I'm done yeah I agree I try to be the same way. Like even for competitions, like I don't want to feel like I cut out all this food and got so ready for the comp that by the end of it, you're like, Oh, I'm just gonna eat whatever I want. Like I want to be done with the competition and just be normal again. Like I don't like that feeling. Be normal again.

Of building, building up and cutting out all the food and caloric depths, all that stuff. It doesn't work for me very well. For a short time. I just sort of feel like being like all of you people, you know, just normal for just a little while. What short time, I just sort of feel like being like all of you people, you know, just normal

for just a little while. What supplements do you guys take? You don't have to like go by name brand. Michelle can, but McGoldrick can't, but Michelle can.

Cover that up. He doesn't know what he's doing. He has no idea. I'm outnumbered right now. Do you take like creatine and beta alanine and whey protein? Kind of like, what are your favorite supplements? What do you think are the most useful, Michelle?

Well, I take force pre-workout usually. So that's got the creatine and beta alanine in it. A little caffeine. A little caffeine. But I have like- Like a little dash of protein to settle the blood. So, and that's with coffee so

oh shit that'd be so great whoa I was like whoa you mix it I might I might get to that point

and then I take more muscle Progenix more muscle after workout and then do pure pharma's fish oil

magnesium and vitamin D and that's pretty much what I stick to what's the stupidest supplement you've ever taken you're like what the fuck do pure pharmas, fish oil, magnesium, and vitamin D. That's pretty much what I stick to. What's the stupidest supplement you've ever taken? You're like, what the fuck is this shit? D-aspartic acid. We hope, like, I'm waiting for my balls to get bigger.

I'm waiting for my balls to get bigger. Blood's over. She's like, this stuff will make you horny. Sounds cool. Did you end up disappointed, man? You end up like, oh, I'm not horny. It didn't do anything to me. You didn't take it long enough and you didn't double the dosage like I did.

You didn't like sprinkle it in your eyeballs. Rub it on your gums. It never did anything for me. What are you taking, Michael? I take, pre-workout, I take amino acids. That sounds fancy. Nothing fancy, by the way. Just basic stuff. Fancy acids. Just flavored BCAAs? Yeah, I take amino acids. Sounds fancy. Nothing fancy, by the way. Basic stuff.

Fancy acids. Just flavored BCAAs? Yeah, flavored BCAAs. Got a little bit of sugar in it. You can't, if you take unflavored BCAAs. They're awful. Oh, yeah. You gotta do pills.

I feel like you're eating like melted plastic. Yeah, you gotta do pills. They taste really bad. But the ones I take. If you eat crack rocks, that's what it would taste like. The ones I taste are delicious. No, I really do like them. No, for real. I'm not. It no I really do like them they're for real

it's gonna be blurred but they're really good yeah and then we're just fucking yeah we can say whatever I want right it's a joke everybody we're making jokes

we're all copacetic chill out chill out people we can't hear post workout yeah just whey protein and dextrose

sugar and then creatine beta alanine and some L-glutamine and then Workout, yeah, just whey protein and dextrose sugar. And then creatine, beta-alanine, and some L-glutamine. And then nighttime, fish oil, L-glutamine before bed, and ibuprofen as much as I need it. Oh, man. How much of each one of those things are you taking? Before bed.

Yeah, for your workout shake and before bed. I do five grams of creatine, betaine beta alanine and l-glutamine in the post five each five each okay and then before bed i do five grams of l-glutamine as well again what about for for the protein and the dextrose uh it depends if it's if it's like a lot of lifting and a lot of crossfit workouts and stuff just a you know can't say strength session, can't say conditioning, but if it's like both, man, like a hundred grams of carbs, like a hundred grams of sugar. So like two, two scoops of that, two or three scoops of that dextrose and then a protein, probably like 60 grams. Yeah. But if it's like, you know,

you know, mainly a strength session, not moving a whole lot, just lifting some, uh, you know, more protein, less carbs. So between like 30% and 50% of your body weight in grams, if you're a 200 pound dude, 50%, a hundred grams, like you said. Yeah. So something in that range, we get questions all the time about stuff like that. Like how many grams per pound of body weight should I have of this certain thing in my, in my workout drink or grams of protein throughout the day? Yeah, that's really good to follow, but it depends on the session. But like every morning I get up and I have something aerobic,

like I just row a lot. I'm not going to take this much protein, as you just said, percentage-wise. I'm just going to do a bunch of sugar. Yeah, what I find is a lot of people, they think, oh, post-workout shake, mainly protein. And for most people, if you're a weightlifter, maybe a post-workout shake mainly protein and for most people if you're a weightlifter maybe a one-to-one ratio would be good you know 30 grams of protein 30 grams of sugar but you know most people that are doing crossfit who are training hard you know and i

and i suggest they take double you know a two-to-one ratio of carbs of protein and like yeah like minds are blown ratios or you change the ratios or anything? You just do recovery. I don't do the math, but I do do more carbs when it's more it's a longer session or more conditioning oriented. I do think it's good to do

the math in the beginning and maybe start with those ratios and then you'll get to know your body over time. You're going to have to adjust it for how you feel and how you're performing. There's no formula for you. There's a lot of times where those ratios, and then you'll get to know your body over time. You're going to have to adjust it for how you feel and how you're performing, right? It's just the formula. There's no formula for you. There's a lot of times where my training is not highly varied now.

Back when it was highly varied, it's almost like after. Code word for you, broken. Code for broken, that's for sure. Yeah, back when I was doing a lot of CrossFit, and some days were heavy days, and days and some days were high volume conditioning days, it was almost like how I felt. Like I'm looking at the dextrose. I'm like, today's a two scooper. Today's a one scooper. Not every aerobic session I do is the same.

Even if they're the same time duration each session, some mornings I just don't feel like I need a lot of sugar. Like I feel good and I'm like, I'm not going to put as much this time. Yeah. But that only comes after that comes after like years of measuring everything you measure everything for a while you figure out how it makes you feel

and then you can adjust from there and get more intuitive it's not even something you probably really even think about you just kind of go I don't think I should have as much it's a natural decision I think it comes

yeah builds more intuition over time that being said most people aren't going to need 100 grams of sugar post workout

you're doing at least a dozen sessions per week and they're not short sessions yeah and you're you're 200 ish pounds lean and you fucking jerk like 400 pounds yeah the the ones i'm talking about where i add like 100 plus grams i mean those are like three three and a half hour sessions where i'm it's a lot of work what yeah like i get you work out for three and a half hours in a day? Yeah. Bro. Bro. You think you're overtraining? Well, if he wasn't eating all that sugar and taking naps all day, he would be. I'm not overtraining.

I might be overtraining, but I'm definitely recovering, right? You do take naps throughout the day. You got a little cot set up in your office. In your house. He doesn't even leave his office to take a nap. He just like what's going on in the office i have a cop in my office it's an art i swear people think i'm full of shit george i can lay down and fall asleep in five minutes and wake up and be like what's next and everyone that says no i can't do that it makes me tired or i can't fall asleep that's something yeah like it doesn't happen

right away. You gotta learn how to do it. Because what's the first thing that happens when you lay down and you wanna go to sleep like right then? You sit there and you think, I'm not gonna fall asleep.

I'm not gonna fall asleep. You do. No, I fall asleep. It's about confidence. Yes. You'll be confident in your ability to nap. Nap confidence.

It's a subtle art. Let's take a break real quick. When we come back, we'll figure out what it is that Mike does right before bed to help him sleep so well. He's smiling. Could be anything. That was a good one. And we're back.

And we're back. Mick Goldrick and Michelle Kenny did not take off, so they're still here with Doug Larson, Chris Moore, and myself. We weren't bored. No. Only one of us was bored on the break. Doug bores easily. Doug listening to us ramble our mouths off

during the break. We did learn about webbed toes though. That was interesting. 1 in 2,500 people are born with webbed toes. But two of them are in this room. It's up to you to decide who. You'll have to figure it out whoever gets it right will get a free something virtual hug from christmas you should give something away free it's a great i give good virtual hugs man what two people in this room

have wet toes yeah barbell shruggy or something so speaking of supplements what, what steroid are you taking right now? What type of steroids are you on right now, both of you? No steroids. The steroid of life. Rose. I brought that up to athletes before. We started talking about steroids, not on the show, but that's what I'm waiting for him to do is like.

Give you the glass. Just like freak out on me. But that's been a new, that's been a hot topic lately, right? It has been. It has. I find myself, I was at a Wadapalooza and talking to a lot of people there. And then the very next weekend I was hanging out at the Fittest Games. And then it seemed like a lot of the coaches I was talking to and some of the athletes is just, it's becoming a much more common topic.

You know, we're talking, you know, someone always brings it up. Sometimes it's me. But, like, sometimes you hear, I mean, you're just starting to hear of some athletes that are using drugs. And then it starts you wondering how many people are on drugs. And then who has, like, a history of drugs, you know, you've got some of these guys that are just very, very, very, uh,

muscular, hugeified. Yeah. And even if they're not on now, did they have like a year, you know, years before where they were a lot? And is that,

what do you guys think about that? Man? I think the community right now is like always going to be blaming or, or have a shitload of speculation. It's like, uh, well, these guys are doing, you know, all this volume and incredible stuff like they've got to be using. All right. Well, then the drug tests come out.

Oh, well, you know, like some of them probably got caught. But, you know, like HQ is not letting people know about it. You know, it's like it's like one thing after another. That's what happens in baseball and shit. You know, same thing. I'm sick of all the speculation. There's all these people who like, well, I mean, I'm not going to name names. No fucking man up.

Name names. If it's, if you know, you know, all these people seem to have this insider information that I'm not telling anyone about. They're just trying to be right. Yeah. They're trying to be right. And it's not, that's, that's bugging me. And be the guy who exposed the hidden dangers.

Personally, I don't know, you know, if people are using or not. Like, I don't know. I see things that are done and I'm like, well, I mean, all the signs would point to it, but you got to remember this is a sport of finding

the fittest people in the world. We're not going to be normal looking people. We're all going to look jacked. We're all going to do incredible things. They found a system to narrow down

the fittest people in the world. They're not going to be average Joes. Taking the top 10 and saying, well, look at these top 10. They've got to be using. Take away those top 10. The next top 10 are going to be blamed.

I was waiting for you to rip your shirt off when you said being jacked. I didn't mean me personally. You're pretty jacked, bro. I'd give you that nod. You're a jacked dude. Thank you, Chris. Especially now you're doing

the most important bench press exercise. You added that to your regimen. Balance. Fill out a jacked dude. Thank you, Chris. Especially now you're doing the most important bench press exercise. You added that to your regimen. Balance. Fill out those shoulders you got. Thank you. How do you feel about it, Michelle? It gets irritating. Even on the women's side,

you've got these, I guess, it's more like masculine looking women. You either get pointed like, these, I guess it's more like masculine looking women and you either get pointed like, Oh, they're on something or they're a dude. And that's a little irritating, but, um, I do think it's offensive. Yeah, it's, it's pretty offensive, but at the same time, just like what you said, we're training, we're lifting really heavy weights and that's only increasing. We're only getting fitter. Um, I'm not naive enough to think that everybody's clean and I'm glad the standards are being changed and actually they're doing random tests although that's not a perfect system but you know

it's at least a step in the right direction but yeah for sure but in every sport every sport is there so to say CrossFit's clean of it is naive I I believe. I agree. But I don't want to say all the top 10 men are on something. It discredits their hard work, and that's a little irritating. I definitely agree with that. Because as sure as there's somebody who is probably getting through, there is a guy who's huge, and he's worked every day for the last 20 years of his life, and given everything he's got to it, and that's probably also a very important thing that people sort of cast out.

You can't be natural. Yeah. Well, if somebody can't do it themselves or isn't willing to put in the time and effort, I mean, you heard him talk about his training week and this is early in the season. I mean, he's putting in a ton of time that not many people can do and or are willing to do. And so that's why he's where he is right now. And it's not something synthetic and it's not cheating. But the naysayers that aren't willing to go there just assume that this is something that's impossible to achieve on your own. If you know a guy like Mike, you see that steroids are without a doubt like a important thing that can help some people break through from one level of not being right where they need to be to definitely being the higher. That's why people do them.

Sure. But it's stupid to think that's the only higher, that's why people do them. Sure. But it's stupid to think that's the only thing that is different about some people who are successful that is, that's the only thing that could be possibly

making them that different. No, a guy like Mike is the most, this is the most dedicated dude I've ever seen in my life. You could threaten him with death or in a wad and he'll just look at you coldly

right now like fucking Clint Eastwood. It's like, dang it. Not just me, there's hundreds of people doing it. I mean. There's a lot of people, like Rich does that.. Not just me. There's hundreds of people doing it. There's a lot of people. Like Rich does. All these guys, you meet them and you see other things.

Combined with incredible genetics. I'm with Michelle. I'm not naive to say there's people that aren't using in the sport. But yeah, you're in the sport of hard work and blessed genetics. You're going to see freak shows. They're not all going to be normal to fit in your scope of a normal person that doesn't look like they're using steroids. Yeah, I think some people use that as an excuse. They see, you know, they see people doing really great things and they're like, well, I could do that if I was using steroids. So, like, they kind of go, oh, it must be the drugs or something like that.

And, yeah, you know, the point I was just trying to make is like, there's, you know, there's for people to think there's no drugs in the sport. Yeah. That is very naive. And there, there's definitely some drug use. And until they're, they start like, I guess, randomly drug testing everybody, you know, and you have to like submit yourself, you know, kind of like with the Olympic with Olympic weightlifting with USAW, like for you to be

uh eligible to be a competitor for like world team or whatever you have to submit yourself to those tests ahead of time and so there's still you know crossfit's still just getting like what the top 10 or you didn't get the letter i didn't get the letter you know you're top eight yeah not beef cake now by the way now Now you will. She just experienced some tremendous mass gain. Yeah. Sandwiches. Sandwiches.

Codename, sandwiches. Sorry, I'm late. Vitamin S. But I remember like last year they were saying, hey, we're going to drug test at regionals.

We've got the problem solved. And then I was like, well, that just means that you can't use drugs three out of nine, you know, three out of 12 months of the year.

Yeah. The other nine months of the year, it's a free for all. So I do think it's naive for people to think that it's 100% clean as well. Crossroads really aren't that much more jacked

than athletes in other sports. It's just so much easier to see because crossroads love to train with their shirts on. Well, yeah, you've got like, I saw this article recently and a lot of it was a little

over my head with all the data and figures but it had like a picture of Jason Kalipa and it was like the Instagram photo that everyone's seen. They're huge.

They're out by the pool and I'm like, he looks jacked and I'm like, well, you know, we're not super tall. These guys aren't

all over 6'2". They're, you know, 5'8 to 5'10 I think is the average height. Let's not rule out the effect of the Instagram filter. The Instagram filter. I know not rule out the effect of the Instagram filter.

And Instagram filtering. There's a definition button on there. The picture of you and the girls walking. Oh, yeah. It makes you jacked. There's a jack button on there. I mean, I'm sure you saw that and you were like, is that me?

You were like, damn. There's a picture of me sprinting at the games. I do me. On the zigzag sprint. When I was thumbing through an article and saw the picture, I didn't even know it was me. Yeah. And I was like, that's me. Oh, dude realized like those are my son that's me I had no

idea like so basing it off aesthetics and how you look it's so stupid because now like everything is filtered it's just I got tired of that argument too like if you have a bunch of NFL players playing a game with no shirt on Jesus you'd be like holy shit these guys are legit are legit. Which they totally are. Sure, absolutely. They lost their areas in that sport too. That's the same in college now. It's the same in high school.

You go to like a Texas high school and just look at these kids who eat nothing but like fucking goldfish crackers in a day. They're just genetically not like you. They play football in Texas.

They're the filtered perfect percent. The good point about sport is like people will cast fingers at something like CrossFit like all these guys, these fucking jerks. Look at, they're cheating.

Of course they are. They think they're fancy with the ESPN funds and this, that, and the other. Every sport from the history

of man to now has been corrupted by something to give somebody an edge. Like, people talk shit about baseball because,

oh, well, in the 90s, everybody got on steroids. And creatine. Don't forget creatine. Yeah, creatine.

Huge generalization. Doug, what was the, the Andrastean to die on was the best. The shit that never worked that Mark had. Mark McGuire was doing the home run records. So, what was the, the Andrews thing to die on was the best. Andrew. The shit that never worked that Mark had. Mark McGuire was doing

the home run records. So intense. But like people think all of a sudden steroids corrupted their sport and they forget. I learned this from Greg Proops actually.

He said, do you remember before steroids that every fucking baseball player from the history of time was on dope of any kind of Coke, amphetamines, anything to swing bat

fucking from the 60s on. Anything to swing back better or to be more on. People have been doing it. So it's not just now. It's been an eternal problem. We got a buzz? Yeah, I'm buzzing pretty bad. I'm not at all. It's just mine. I mean, you can keep going. It's fine.

We're all good. Yeah, man. Solid. He's like, no, it's still buzzing. On the flip side, people look at the physiques and go, they got to be on stuff. But if you look at some MMA fighters, and there's been guys that have been busted, and you look at them and you're like, they're on shit.

Like, no way. But what they're using it for, they're using it for recovery. They're not doing it to be a bodybuilder. They're not doing it to try to get as big as possible. So if people were to get popped, they might be surprised that some of the guys that were getting popped, their physique may not be. That's not exactly a telltale sign. That's why most baseball players take it.

Not because they want to get jacked and hit home runs, just because they have to play a game every day. If I were to use it, I would do it because I want to heal faster. every day. It's like 120 games. Because I want to heal faster. Right, right. Especially pitching, right, Doug? I mean, that's hugely hard to recover from, isn't it? Oh, no doubt. Yeah, the starters go every five days no matter what.

And so those guys, they don't have the option to rest a little bit extra. They're on that very set scheduled routine. So they actually use more steroids, people speculate, than the people that are trying to hit the home runs for example. The pitchers are probably the worst

but they are also half the league. And if you think my arm is hurting and it's also the thing that makes me a million dollars a year you're going to fucking take whatever you're going to take to make your arm just feel okay. You're not looking for a superhuman edge

because you already had superhuman abilities but you can throw a 100 mile an hour fastball. The drug won't like what the Barry Bonds just say you can't learn how to swing via drugs with a fucking 100-mile-an-hour baseball. You've got to be able to do that or you can't.

You've still got to hit the ball. That's right. I'd be willing to bet anyone who's been in the sport for a while and they start using drugs, it's probably not to win. It's just to keep competing. Just to stay in the game. Especially if someone's been competing for years and years and years. That's why stimulants and amphetamines are more prevalent

in baseball than steroids. Cause people are just tired. They're looking for something to keep them awake and keep them motivated. And then when that stopped, when that starts failing and it's not working as well as it used to, and they're not getting muscular or like physical recovery, they're just like getting that, that, that that pump from or not pump, but that stimulus from the amphetamines, which is going to get them excited. What? You look confused. No, you're good.

I'm hearing something funny. So a stimulant is going to raise your energy and raise your motivation as a byproduct there, but it's not actually going to give you muscular recovery. And so that's why they switch over to steroids because at some point they need to have actual physical recovery because they're just,

they're not able to keep up if they're playing a game every single day. They just burn out and that's the only way to keep up. Yeah. They lift weights, then they go to practice, then they do like batting practice

and shag flight balls, then they play a game. It's like all day long, every single day. They get a Monday off like every three weeks. I mean, I get fucking really tired of people just talking shit about these athletes all the time.

No one takes two seconds to go, let's, we've talked enough shit about the cheaters in our society. How about we understand why they're being driven to such extents? Like,

why is it they feel like they must take those things? Why? Because all the pressure in the world and all the eyes of the world are on them. They're trying to survive

the situation long enough to be able to walk away from it in one piece. You know, it's kind of a dick thing to always think it's just these damn dirty cheaters. Like Doug said, they're surviving the sport.

Lucas Parker, CrossFit Games athlete, for those who don't know who he is. He's the most manly looking CrossFit athlete. He's an awesome guy. He's so much fun to be around. He wrote a really cool Facebook article. I guess I'd say he put it on Facebook. It was pretty long. He talks about the use in the sport and like,

and obviously why he thought it was a bad idea. Now I know there's always a flip side to it. Like, look, once there's money involved, like all the funding games kind of go away. People don't really care anymore. They just want the money and they'll do whatever it takes. But his point was like, you know, we start using drugs so early in the sport now when we're still seeing gains without it. Um, we're going to start masking bad training programs we're not gonna learn anything yeah you know like it's

definitely true because you start taking drugs and and you're gonna see you're gonna see yeah everything works so like you don't know we're not learning anything when it comes to training programs i thought that was a really good point from him we actually start hurting people too because then what works for you this happens in other strength sports where you do something that works for you because of these conditions and then people look at you and see your success and want emulate, but they don't understand what else you're doing and you don't fucking tell them. That's what gets offensive to me. You do what you got to do, but we're not open and honest with people. You get in that problem.

This sport's incredible. Like, I mean, every year you see it happen every year at regionals. They announce the regional events and everybody's like throws a fit. They're like, this is way too much. I mean, I can't believe they're doing this. All these reps, all these pull-ups and what happens every year?

Everybody crushes it. Everybody steps their game up and adapts and the same with the games. The games get heavier and more each and every year and everyone crushes it. Yeah,

if you just told me like three or four years ago, hey, they're going to do 100 chest bar pull-ups for the ladies too. And it's not because everyone in the sports

on drugs. Yeah. And 300 other reps. There are a lot of in the sport is on drugs yeah and 300 other reps there are a lot of people that may be on drugs but I know for a fact that not everyone is yeah

yeah that's true yeah I mean yeah I know for a fact that there's people who are some a handful of the best in the world that aren't on drugs

and that doesn't mean that some people are but yeah yeah I mean it is possible you know you don't have to have drugs to get to that point

yeah I mean we're still that. You know, you don't have to have drugs to get to that point. Yeah. I mean, we're still... That's been proven. We're still adapting naturally and growing with the sport. It's pretty awesome. Okay, so who's on drugs? Your BCAs don't sound very natural. I'm on caffeine right now.

I think we should ban those. We should ban BCAs, creatine. I mean, I can see where people would get to that line. I mean, you'll do... It's always, it's in our nature to always want more, to always want more progress. We can never get enough. We want to be stronger. We want to be faster. So

like, sure, it makes perfect sense why anyone would want to use, but you know, just don't. Go on. On your slippery slope. I'm coming out. Sorry. Are you ever tempted? Are you ever tempted? Are you like, oh man, maybe I should. I mean, yeah, there's been thoughts where I've been like, oh man, what would be the

next level of my recovery? Like what would be the next step? I mean, I still go back and I'll like, I'll write diet logs down because I'm always trying to find extra edges to put on my training, just trying to help and grow. And yeah, I mean, of course it comes to my mind, But first of all, I wouldn't even know where to start. Like, do I go back to the guy in high school he's bought weed from? I don't know.

Hey, bro. I know you do drugs. I don't need any of that, but what else you got? A little advice. Don't go to that guy. I picture you just on your couch, conflicted with a little red version of yourself

with devil horns on one shoulder and a little angel Mike doesn't have a devil self he only has the angel self everybody's got devil self the devil inside

everything's working without so I'm perfectly content good for you still making progress but we're watching so why do you you say is it tempting of course it's tempting

I mean everyone considers like what would be the next level of recovering I'm not maybe I'm speaking for myself maybe you can chime in Michelle but I mean do you ever wonder like yeah what would be the next level of recovering. I'm not, maybe I'm speaking for myself. Maybe you can chime in Michelle, but I mean, do you ever wonder like, yeah, what would be the next level? I mean, I'm constantly wanting to improve. That's, that's the point of the sport. You always want to be better. You want more.

Yeah. I'm just constantly worried about it getting too rampant because it's not something that I see myself doing. And I don't want to ever have that feeling where I have to do this to stay in the game. So that's, that's kind of the more disturbing part of it because of just the longterm. I mean, I know competing at this level isn't the greatest thing for longevity. But adding to it,

adding to that would That's not any better. Oh, I mean, it would be. Adding to that would be really, like, I don't want to set myself up to be, like, thrashed the rest of my life. And so, and we don't know how long an athlete,

you know, kind of lives in the sport. It's still an experiment. I don't even know what the drugs would do, but I don't, I know I couldn't cope with the feeling of losing it.

Like, when I came off of all that stuff. I would spiral down hard. I think that's the truth, man. I would't cope with the feeling of losing it when I came off of all that stuff. I would spiral down hard. I think that's the truth, man. I would have to quit the sport because if I'm not competitive anymore, I don't want to do it. It's probably most bad things in life.

You get a taste for it and you go, well, this is really good, but you know what? I'm okay. It's the illusion. Then you try to stop, and that's when you realize the hook is in you. I don't see myself just being like, oh, yeah, I'll stop using

and I'll back off and I'll just play for a while. I'm just playing. No, it wouldn't happen. I'll play tomorrow. I feel like the more people that do it,

the more people that know other people are doing it, the more they're going to want to do it themselves. If you were fourth in your region one year and now you're not going to the games,

that'd be rough to swallow if you knew for a fact that those other three people were on the shit and you weren't and they beat you. The next year, it'd be like, like what do i what i do this year i know i can't compete with that right do i just stop or do i go the next step yeah i definitely sorry go ahead i was just gonna say that's the exact situation that i fear like i don't want to be in that position

where i know i mean how i don't know how i would know for a fact that people are on something but to feel like that was the case like i don't know what my decision know for a fact that people are on something, but to feel like that was the case, I don't know what my decision would be. It'd be really hard to hang up the nanos, but at the same time... Never hang up the nanos. At the same time, I'm training for games, and regionals is that stepping stone,

and if I don't go to games, I don't know how fired up I will be year after year not going to games. I just. Yeah, I really like what you said earlier. It's like you don't want to have to feel like you need to. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's that would be a I could see that as a huge fear.

It's like if you've been to the top. Yeah. And then for there to be a point where like oh if i want to stay going to games well now i have to do this thing i really don't want to do yeah i mean i really don't think anyone's going to know what they would do in that situation until it's actually there everyone that everyone that's outside judging like the people that that end up making that decision probably don't have the perspective that that person had in the moment in that situation yeah i feel like the best thing i can do now is just be, you know, an advocate for the most stringent testing policies, period. And, and that, uh,

the random drug tests, I mean, I guess there's still ways around that. I have no clue what they are, but at the same time, like, you know, random drug tests. Awesome. Yeah. That's what that's, that's what that article was saying. It was like, Oh yeah so what they're drug testing people year around you he said in it quote word for word he was like you you have to be an idiot to fail the drug test and i was like really i'd be like well people who know is he trying to get business i was scared i was scared taking the drug test i was scared taking the drug test at regionals and i'm 100 clean i was just nervous that something was gonna happen i was like i don't know maybe i had a cup of coffee is Is that bad?

Maybe I shouldn't say this, but all you have to do is get on the internet just for a little bit, jump on a couple forums, and there's all these protocols for working around that stuff. I mean,

it's not the topic of the podcast has changed. I don't recommend that, but at the same time, as somebody who's been into fitness and strength sports for years and years and years that's something that you know i'm just aware of it's not a new this guy this guy was this guy

knew the drugs really well like it was a pretty deep article there's some drugs that are in and out real quick and some drugs will hang out for a long time and if you time it the right time and some things that they don't even test so people who are going for fucking gold medals right now in the olympics certainly know I mean, just because the drug policy is there doesn't mean you're not going to struggle, struggle, struggle, struggle. It's going to be, but there has been that trade-off of somebody's always going to beat it, man, but you can't just do nothing. I mean, come on, let's be practical.

And if you spend enough money, you can get stuff that's non-detectable. Genetic engineering. You know, that's the new frontier. How about this, Mike? I've been talking about this in my fevered mind. There's quickly coming a day where Mike might be presented with another kind of option maybe it's in a couple years if you got the cash spare 100 grand to fill out yourself in a massive experiment like Dave Asbury style experiment but how about you could identify individual genes and it's up regulate or down

regulate depending on what you wanted your body to adapt to what capabilities you needed to have that is the new frontier that's gonna fucking happen if i give you that option what do you think can you dumb that down a little bit i can look at your genes but i know i could offer you the ability to recover 10 fast just by giving you a pill because i can upregulate the ability or body to recover yeah i mean it's not uh it's not it's get nervous. This is not fucking steroids. I'm saying I understand. It's such a gray area because it's like probably five years ago, wouldn't creatine a banned substance? I don't know.

At one point. It was controversial. It was controversial a long time ago, but only amongst media journalists. What is considered a banned substance? I'm going to follow the rules, and I'm only going to do what's accessible to everyone else. As long as everyone else can do it, I'm going to do it too. I'm only going to do what's accessible to everyone else. As long as everyone else can do it,

I'm going to do it too. Yeah, I see it as a rules thing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if testosterone is legal, then everyone should just do it.

That is, that's so much of an emerging issue that I've heard conversations that there should be transhuman divisions of competitions where we know

you're not normal human anymore and you can compete there. That's the real thing. People can, I want that. Google that compete there. That's the real thing. I want that. I want to see anything goes division. Ultimately, where do you draw the line? At what point do you say,

take whatever you want over there. Take everything. It works for bodybuilding. They have the natural division and they have the freak show. No one questions the fact that this is so... Have you been to a natural show? No. It's like being to a strip club.

You get to smell the steak. I had a buddy of mine that did it and I went and watched him compete. There was like three people. He was natural. This is my judgment on it. I don't know the sport that well. He was apparently natural.

The other two dudes were there and I think they were fighting over the money basically these guys were huge in the same division as him but there was three people competing

I think there were less people in the crowd so I mean high school auditorium yeah like it was just well once you have like once you have a pro and natural division

no one wants to watch the natural division anymore if you do that the other one's dead was my point right if you have that the other one's dead was my point right if you have the big juiced up

whatever goes that's where all the money is going to go no one's going to watch the other one yeah you know but it's honest

Lucas also talked about in that article in that thing he wrote where can we find this article by the way it's on Facebook I'll see if I can like post a link somehow

on the Google I hadn't read this yet who wrote it what's it called Lucas Parker Lucas Parker wrote the rant about why we need to keep

the sport clean okay and then the other guy I don't remember his name exactly you guys have probably heard of him but it's an article

online that was posted I'll try and find it too okay sorry I don't I don't have my sources if you search CrossFit steroids you'll probably find it

near the top of the news feed Or whatever now Yeah But no Lucas was bringing up He's like That's how That's how a lot of the sports

Developed And I may be He may be wrong on this But like track and field You know like They did it as natural As they could for a while Everyone got kind of

Plateaued Then they started Adding drugs in And it got awesome You know And then now Everyone uses drugs So

Isn't that what Maybe Louis said this, I'm not sure, but someone was asking about putting powerlifting in the Olympics, but then it'd be like super heavily regulated

and there'd be more drug testing and then it'd be like, well, the best squat outside of the Olympics is fucking 1250. The best squat in the Olympics is 900. Yeah.

Nobody would care. I mean, look, when I was competing myself, I was so naive at the time, I thought I could keep up, but I would lift in a meet where a guy was squat 1150, 1180. That's how crazy it was getting. I would.

I was as fat as I could get, as bloated as I could get, as strong as I could get with without the use of drugs. And I got to 975 and I just couldn't go any further. I mean, it's like I was and I saw guys basically built the way I was built, but some was plus almost added to it. And it was two or 300 pounds, man. It's like, that's, that's what you can get. You can either try and keep up or you could just recreationally stay in it. I was in a car ride one time with a bunch of powders when they were talking about what they were taking.

Like, yeah, my fucking elbows are so beat up. This is a powders and boys. Goddamn, my goddamn elbows are so beat up, man. I feel like signing paper. Oh, you can up your deck, man. That was the whole fucking conversation. They go, what do you take, man? I go, nothing.

It was like I farted in church. No one said a fucking thing for a minute. I go, cool. They're like, yeah, me too. And one guy just peeks out from the back. He goes, why? That's all he said. I go, well, I kind of feel like, to your point,

I kind of feel like I want to know what works in training. And if I just took shit, I would have no idea. I'll just be doing crazy shit. Like you guys sort of do in your training, but you wouldn't know the difference. It's not like the people I'm around in the sport. Like nobody ever talks about it.

I don't know anyone personally who uses like, whereas you, you were just having an open casual conversation. Yeah. Cause it's not, it's not, it's not a sport is not there yet for us. But I mean that,

that's a sport where they're almost announcing, Hey, we don't test. Whereas in not there yet for us. But I mean, that's a sport where they're almost announcing, hey, we don't test. Whereas in CrossFit, they're at least making the attempt to. Like Empowered

Nothing, no one thinks that anyone's that. It might be different in parts of the nation. I don't know what the community's like, but it's just not like that around me.

The problem is, is CrossFit is so new. I mean, no one understands how this is going to shake out completely and no one can really control it. And I think at some point you got to say, it's okay.

If we keep our focus on what's good and just evolve as we know we should, it'll get to a good point. I mean, you can't just, you can't just rush through this and say, I'm gonna put down some drastic measures to stop it. It's not, it's not going to be that easy.

There's 300 grand in line. You're not going to stop it now. You gotta, you gotta slowly navigate this fucking thing. Yeah. It's unfolding. CTPU. I'm the most generic athlete on the planet.

We need to do a test. We need to do a test where I take steroids for X amount of time and show these people that I still probably won't beat half and half of people in the open. That sounds like a good experiment. Oh, yeah. Like, seriously, I'll do that experiment. The open starts in a month, so we got to start you light today. Oh, damn.

Well, we could do it. I could do the Open workouts later and just judge myself against the scores. I know a gym in town where you could probably get something. Not my gym. I think we're all forgetting the main point here, that they're illegal. So we're not doing it. Look, the government is just trying

to protect you from yourself. Okay? If you shut the fuck up and not do those things we're saying not do, it's against the law. Your 401k will be there. You'll be just fine.

There'll be no risk in your fucking boring life. Just sit there and shut the fuck up. All right. With that, I think we're going to wrap it up here.

Hope you enjoyed the discussion. Found it enlightening. Something. McGoldrick's tainting the desk. Steroids, look. Get that steroids out of here. Magic powder. Sir, why are you walking around with pills in your pocket?

At one point, this probably was steroids. Fish oil, vitamin D. Oh, that vitamin D, man. Those are hormones, man. Oh, man. All right. Yeah. Thanks for joining us.

Thanks for having us. This was a blast. Love having you all on. Love to do this again. Controversial. Again. Again. Always.

See you all next time. Peace.