Barbell Shrugged - 143- How to Maximize Sport and Life Performance with Freestyle Movement w/ Carl Paoli

Episode Date: September 24, 2014

This week on Barbell Shrugged we are excited to welcome Carl Paoli back to the show. In case you missed our chat from last year, make sure to go back and check out Episode 84 of the podcast.    Carl is always a pleasure to be around. He’s also an inspiring and well-grounded coach that is changing the way that we think about movement. He certainly changed the way I view gymnastics, elevating it from a Crossfit programming curiosity to a training element that I now consider essential to balanced, sustainable strength development.    I’ve spent the majority of the past year doing handstand holds as frequently as possible. I have to thank Carl for that amazing insight. But there’s also one other giant insight that comes to mind when I look back on our conversations - Above everything else, Carl excels at occupying the common ground. That starts with a few realizations.    First, the most important thing is to realize that no one has all of the answers, and no matter how confident a coach might be in their opinion, no one has a flawless approach. The very best accept that fact and use it as a fuel to drive their daily education and a continual refinement in their methods. To that point, Carl’s view serves as a balancing force.    Christopher Sommer’s view of the competitive fitness world is that there’s only one way to do Gymnastics properly…His way (check out Episode 114). That’s fine, because strong voices serve to push the discussion forward. But still, we need to be careful with balance here. To Carl’s point, not every elite method is suitable for all athletes, especially those just embarking on this journey.   The second realization has to do with how the coaching itself is dished out. There’s a bias right now in the fitness community towards programming. A ton of value is assigned to the way things are done, and that is very important. However, it’s not the only thing. Far from it. What matters just as much, if not more, is why things are done. Specifically, the very best coaches aren’t necessarily the savviest or most complicated. Rather, they are the ones that can get their clients to understand why it is they’re doing what they’re doing. With that, you can accomplish anything you want in the gym. There’s no need in feeling certain.    Carl, it’s always a pleasure, friend.   Cheers,  Chris Moore   For more   You can scoop up Carl’s excellent book, “Free+style”, on Amazon right now. Do it! It’s great.  Make sure to follow Carl on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.  Interested in improving your mobility? Check out Maximum Mobility.  Progression is the key to gymnastics development, but also strength. Check out the Underground Strength Progression Seminar to take your barbell training to the next level. 

This week on Barbell Shrugged, we interview Carl Powley, movement dude. Hey, this is Rich Froning. You're listening to Barbell Shrugged. For the video version, go to barbellshrugged.com. Don't be nervous. Welcome to Barbell Shrugged. I'm Mike Blitzer here with Doug Larson, Christopher Moore, CTP behind the camera, of course. We have our guest, Professor Carl Pauly. We're calling him that because we are at Princeton University, and this dude is professing some shit.

That's right. Professing, I like that. You know, I barely graduated college. We were saying it's a good way to start the show. But now you're speaking at an Ivy League school school so that's kind of cool i feel special very academic did you also have the thought like why am i being asked to come i could never have gotten into this i was actually you know kind of tricked into coming no i came because i wanted to come and especially because it was an endurance summit. And I'm definitely not an endurance athlete, but being able to speak to people that have nothing to do with gymnastics

or even strength and conditioning, I'm all about it. Well, it's funny because a lot of endurance athletes, they do get into strength and conditioning a little bit, but then the whole gymnastics thing, that's like a whole other step removed. Totally. Totally. So it's, you know, people associate me with gymnastics, but I'm definitely not a gymnast.

He's also a pretty face. I was thinking the same joke, dude. Oh, God. I'm always trying to be, you know, a little bit more thug. Can you say that? I'm always working off amazingly well. You are so thug. My street crag quotient, I'm always looking to amplify that. Alright, dude. First off, you're in the wrong city to be pulling off amazingly well. You are so thug. My street cred quotient, I'm always looking to amplify that.

All right, dude. First off, you're in the wrong city to be pulling off thug. I know. You need to come to Memphis. I'll put you in the right spot for a week. You may never come back, but we'll get the thug. I may get the cred. Somebody as cute as you walking through some neighborhood?

I'm sweating right now. I don't know why. I got so hot. Before we go any further, this is the longest little intro. Go to barbellstrug.com. We should start the show.

Sign up for the newsletter and we will inform you of all the cool stuff. You might have, if you were signed up for the newsletter, you would know we were at Princeton University

and we were going to speak and we were all invited. Me, Doug, Chris, Carll we got nate over here nate helming people um we i'm here because of nate actually yeah yeah and uh well yeah he's a he's an endurance genius from what i understand yep running philosopher is that what we're calling you now running philosopher yeah you can't ever shave that beard with that name, though. So you got to keep the beard. Keep that beard.

Yeah, but we were all invited, and I was like, Princeton University. It's the National Endurance Sports Summit. The organization is Elevate Endurance. Check out elevateendurance.org if you want to check out what these guys are doing. This is the first year they're putting it on. They asked us, and at first I was like, Princeton? That's weird that we got asked to go speak there. And then I saw the lineup of people talking,

and I was like, wow, this is a real honor. It's diverse. Not just be at the school talking, but then also with those people. So it's a really solid lineup. I'm pretty happy about it. I'm really excited. And I'm not in the endurance community either. were all saying the same thing clearly like how did i get invited and i saw carl i was like well he did gymnastics dude if carl got invited but it's like it's like the three of us and carl aren't endurance guys and everyone else that's the point they've like they've done 100 mile races and stuff and and stuff. I was telling Carmen, like last time we talked about it,

the magic happens when we all care about the same stuff, like the same kind of ideas, and we come from diverse backgrounds. We mix together in one room. That's when new insights happen. It happened with us last time. I think when you talk your perspective with the room full of endurance athletes, they're all going to see the same things from new perspectives. Everybody's going to improve.

Exactly, and I think that's what i'm coming here to do it's not to get people to understand my techniques or approaches to training it's more just getting them to think about it slightly different and if i get these people thinking then i will have done my job and i think that's easy to do and i was telling nate i'm like it doesn't matter how much we mess up today if we just continue to deliver the message that we've been delivering because it's slightly a different audience, especially for me, then it will be a good day. Yeah. So do you consider yourself less of a gymnastics coach and more of a movement coach really? Or how do you think about yourself? The movement philosopher. Weren't you there for the last podcast?

The running philosopher. How many philosophers in a row? Let Carl make his own category. We did it last time. I know, we did. We did. I was kind of like the movement philosopher, I think. I'm definitely not

a gymnastics coach. Why not? Movement dude. Movement dude. I don't know. I don't know. People ask me all the time, like, what do you do?

I'm like, I don't really know, but I go and talk to people and inspire people. I don't know how People ask me all the time, like, what do you do? I'm like, I don't really know, but I go and talk to people, inspire people. I don't know how to respond to the same question either. I maximize human potential. I inspire where darkness reigns. I bring my light and help other people see what they may bring to the world. There you go, Nick James. He should have written the intro to your book.

I only got Kelly Starrett to write it. Well, you know who to get next time. Damn, Kelly. Huge mistake. I can say whatever bullshit you need to write, I'm your man. I can make up anything. I think I figured that one out now. But it comes from a good place, and that's what I appreciate.

It does, Carl. I feel it. It comes from a point of love. I feel like you look amazing though thank you you're trying to get my pants or what no uh oh by the way i got send my wife a nice picture later i told her i'll get some some nice flattering picture you would send her a little message you can do whatever you want oh cool the sexier the more encouraging the better but yeah i've been since we last met i've been i've been rocking the protocol that's amazing i'll tell you

two things that it might sound a little dramatic, but shit actually changed my physical existence. I've made two huge changes in my approach to training. One is I quit worrying about weight in the squat, especially the front squat, Doug. I was like, look at Doug's squat. This guy's beautiful in squats. I got to be less ugly when I front squat. So I took all the weight off. I said, I'm going to work on time instead of load. So I started sitting in the bottom and making posture the most important thing in the world. And then come to find out, I had like 150 pounds in my front squat like in a month. Oh, wow. Because mechanics just aligned.

All of a sudden, my spine's like, oh, yeah, it would be easier if we just like stayed stacked, right? I've learned to get my butt underneath my spine and I could squat the weight all of a sudden. And then it was the handstand holds. Wow. Wall walks and handstand holds changed. Like that changed posture from the top down and the front squat fixed everything else. That's crazy. Yeah, when we left, when we left, it wasn't like, oh, I did the handstand.

I'll never do it again. It was like two days later, there's videos out of his garage and him like shivering. At 285. I saw. I saw. I was very impressed. I was like, holy crap. He actually took it seriously.

But see, at the time I was about, at the time I was about 28 the time i was about 289 you changed his life carl what about this man thought he'd never get upside down and he's been upside down on and off for a year now on my we've never done a handstand but you did it so easily on my podcast like the two days before i was like yeah i'm coming to see carl you know maybe we'll have me do handstands fuck that shit it's so stupid i said it like that was my that was my loud mouth perspective bold you know brash perspective

just before meeting you that's crazy and then as soon as your hands left my waist I was like handstands are awesome once I touched you

once you touched me the Midas touch one is like yeah it was fun as hell it was a really cool experience I got a little bit of a humble pie but two

it was the biggest performance lesson I've learned and like shit man since I since I first went to Westside louis told me you gotta train optimally and get your ass in shape to paddle lift don't worry just about load it was like one of the most profound moments that since that thing happened that's crazy that's crazy because you know it's funny because i don't even know what i'm doing i'm just doing i'm just trying stuff and i feed off of

other people and you know you guys were joking let's get him upside down, this big guy, let's see what happens. And I did. But you did. And you did it very quickly. And I feel like we did it in a very progressive way. And who knows if it was the handstand or whatever it was, but it was through that process that somehow you were able to relate to something. You're like, oh shit, I'm'm missing something here why have i not been doing it if i actually can the beautiful thing was it has nothing i got we i think we jive on the fact that programming is awesome we love to talk about like science mechanics and progressions and theory and all that because it's so a beautiful thing to discuss when it comes of what actually makes hay in the world what moves the needle forward it's experiences where you connect and understand like

i could a million people could explain progressions and handstand holds i wouldn't give a shit maybe i'd try maybe it would help me i mean it wouldn't but it was a connection like here's why this is important here's how we can just walk through together with this thing it was the experience that made it profoundly beneficial who gives a shit what the content was it was a presentation you know i agree i agree that's a that's a big one and uh you know i can't focus for more than five minutes. So talking about programming, just the thought of that makes me tired. You know, and I teach a lot and I constantly teach different progressions for different movements, of course.

And I tell everyone is like, who cares about the steps? But it's the essence of what I'm teaching you in the steps that you should remember. And if you do that, because we're all the same, we're all human beings, you're probably going to end up with similar answers than I ended up with. And eventually that will fall into a program. So earlier you said you did, you don't know what you're doing. Is that one of those things where like, as you're, since you're an expert, the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know, is that one of those things? Is that kind of what you're getting at? You know, I'm pausing here because I do know what I know and I know what I don't know. What about the things you don't know? That's where I'm going at. So there's this side of me that's always wanting to step it up to the next level. What is the next level? I don't know, but I'm going to go with the flow and see

where that takes me. And in terms of coaching, it's like, I love coaching, but I don't necessarily care about coaching CrossFit or any kind of lifting or even gymnastics. I just care about talking to people, figuring out what is it they want to accomplish? How can we create a lifestyle that's going to be conducive for that? And that's where I don't have all the answers, but I have a pretty good understanding of how to prioritize certain things in your life that need to be there in order for you to get there. So if that's sleep, is that eating? Is that training a little bit? And then within your training, how do we prioritize that? And that's where maybe my specialty comes in, where I understand movement from this more natural side of things.

It's like, oh, what's the root of why we front squat the way we do? Why is the technique performed this way? Where does it come from? And knowing that allows me to see movement not just as one thing that's happening right now, but as this continuum and it's a constant progression so it's almost like um being able to see across this spectrum it's not just front squatting it's squatting mechanics oh where the squatting mechanics

come from maybe it's from when you first stood up as a kid let's go back to that and then maybe in there there are some answers that we can find that are going to allow me to develop. You're like the Freud of movement. There you go. That's a big one actually to step up to. So I see two patterns. I see coaches that as they get better, they get more set in their ways. And I see coaches that are the opposite, kind of maybe like Diane. Like Diane seems very open to many different perspectives. And she's like, there's no one way, depends on what works for you. And so some coaches, as they get better, they get less set in their ways and they become more open-minded and they realize that there's many different ways that, that you could

get to where you want to go. And that the way I do it might not necessarily be the best way for you. Like which, which path do you feel like you're taking right now? I'm definitely taking the, the path of not being set in my ways. And I think it's just because as a gymnast, I was always taught like, here's the technique. This is how you have to perform it. If you can't do this, you're out. Like you get a bad score. Uh-huh. Right. When in reality, yes, we're shooting for that, but I haven't reached that yet. So what should I be focusing on right now? What are other solutions? And, you know, going back to Diane Fu, for example, yes, she specializes in Olympic weightlifting. But if you look at her history as an Olympic weightlifter, it's towards the ability to move applied to weightlifting.

And she uses weightlifting as an excuse to talk about those things. And yeah, so that's where I live. I live in this broader spectrum and I don't like being a specialist. I'd rather be a generalist. But once you become a generalist, you considered a specialist so it's it's quite quite interesting actually everyone's minds are blown fantastic digest that you know you had um what's up with all the uh open-minded coaches coming from san francisco i don't know i think it's just like uh it's the culture it's the flowers in their hair man you know i know but everyone in the bay area is trying to change the world so i guess i'm one of them well i love it like i i just love contrast man i love like the the fact that this is so much

effective it's such a breath of fresh air is because things have been a little we know what we're talking about there are certain things you got to do to be, to maximize your endurance or to maximize your strength, which is over here. Never the twain shall meet. And if you want to be good at one or the other, stay over here, maybe dabble. But just in my experience,

that's something that's just fucking not true. And I get there by coming to a place where there's, I contrast what I thought was always like these tablets of stone rules and strength conditioning. I come to these types of settings and the contrast makes you see there's more to learn. Exactly. More to learn for sure. You know, it's interesting because a friend of mine used to say, everyone is right. Everyone is wrong. Meaning if you want to run better, go run. Like you have to run. If you want to lift more, lift. Like you have to lift. But then within that, you can't be stuck in this one path.

And you need to understand that even though we're speaking this language of, oh, front squatting, back squatting, overhead squatting, whatever it is, that technique, that language right there is, I don't know how to put it without offending anyone. Offend them. It's limited. It's a limited way of thinking. And even though we are speaking this language and saying, hey, you need to front squat, the way I talk to you about front squatting, Doug, is different than I would talk to you about it, or maybe to you about it. And going back to the handstand example, it's like, why would you originally care about a handstand? I didn't.

Yeah, that's the thing. But now, all of a sudden, you're like, wait a minute. Within this handstand, there was something I learned that is transferable and that matches my purpose. Now I actually care. I think the power of this is that CTP and I have been talking about it. He brought up it then and there. I think part of the reason why it makes this so magical now

is that we all did come from the other side where there was so much like these are the rules kid gymnastics coach or a weightlifter or a strength conditioning professional you're gonna do it this way because we have these studies that were done these last 10 years I'm not giving up this shit we've just now figured out you come out of that you go there's gotta be some better ways to do this right and you combine uh the essential elements you had to learn you muscled through and you had to see the gaps for yourself. Like we could do this better. And that's when you get to the magic point where you can now take that and

combine it with, uh, whatever you want to call that West coast hippie vibe that we all love and admire and you, and we try to cultivate amongst ourselves. Yes. Yes. Change the world combined with what you,

what the gaps you see allows you then to push the ball forward. I hope the next group learns from you and they go, Carl's great, but fuck that guy. When it comes to this thing, they're going to push the ball forward. The next group learns from you and they go, Carl's great, but fuck that guy when it comes to this thing. They're going to push your ball forward. Well, not to sell my book here, but my book is finally out. We talked about it last time. The first quote

that I wrote in the book is one of my quotes, which is, don't let other people's thinking limit yours. And it was right at the beginning of my book, which basically is saying don't read my book you're about to read 450 pages here material that i've thought about a lot and i really believe in but at the same time i don't want you limited by the points that i make right and that's a big deal you said something a few minutes ago which was you talk about like

you communicate with different athletes differently like you're trying to get them to do the same thing but you might have to you know uh say it differently to this guy than this girl or something like that and i see that happen a lot is uh coaches attacking each other they go i heard him say that to that person that's totally wrong i was like like yeah but it's not what he was saying is what he was trying to accomplish with that person there's a lot of things I say that are wrong but uh I know that I'm just trying to get a point across to somebody and I need them to make that change and sometimes you got to tell them it's 10 further than it really is because they can't feel what you want them to do and so and once they feel it, then it's there.

But yeah, I mean, you see that with coaches all the time too. They're criticizing each other because something's not right that they're saying, but that's how they're communicating to that one person or one group of people. And I think that's very interesting because when I first found CrossFit, for example, I would steal every workout that I was given at San Francisco CrossFit. It was like 21, 15, 9 thruster pull up. I would do that with every one of my clients the next day. Every single one of them got the same thing.

And I would do that every day. And they actually started getting better. And they're like, Carl, you're a genius. And I'm like, yeah. Thank you. I am. I do feel good about what I'm teaching. Totally.

And what I realized is that I wasn't teaching 21, 59. I wasn't teaching squatting and pulling. I was teaching people the language of movement because I spoke to every single one of my clients different that day. You know, I taught the same thing, the same prescription, but the communication, the language that we use was very much individualized. And I think that's where this concept of the wall on the board is like, this is our roadmap. Now I'm going to tell you how to take that map and go to where I want you to go today. Exactly. Exactly. And through that, you just said something. I want to make them feel. Once you feel the change, then you're like, oh, I am the change. And now you start making decisions. And now I'm Gandhi. I am the change I want to see in this bitch. Exactly.

Not sure he used that exact terminology. I think you'll find if you go back and retranslate the original Indian, it does come out as I will be the change as a bitch I want to see. It's a subtle, it's a subtle as I will be the change as a bitch I want to see. It's a subtle adverb usage thing. Chris has this habit of putting words in people's mouths, even if they're not around. Carl, I'm going to put things in your

mouth. Word wise. It's a joke. Everybody calm down. We are at Princeton. Oh yeah, I was saying earlier, it's more than likely I We need to be there. Oh, yeah. I was saying earlier, it's more than likely I'm going to be one of those people you read about in the newspaper. They get banned from a university.

Oh, God. They let this guy speak one time, and then he said that thing. We're never coming back. We should call some records later. Let's go run around the quad. What are the words they use for where the kids hang out? The quad, maybe. That sounds cool.

Let's take a break real quick. When we come back, we can actually talk about your book a little bit. Let's do that. This is Andrea Ager, and you're listening to Barbell Shrugged. For the video version, go to barbellshrugged.com. Barbell Shrugged is brought to you by you. To learn more about how you can support the show, go to barbellshrugged.com and sign up for the newsletter.

Somebody add St. Carl's balls, please. I actually keep a giant zip tie in my bag at all times. Just for instances like this. Just in case there's a pair of nuts you need the zip tie. Is that what you just said? The community will not understand the context of this intro. And we're back. We're trying to get back.

Yeah, we got talking. And every time we go on a break, the conversations never stop and I feel bad. I'm like, no, no, no, we got to stop. We were talking about some things that,

because that's what happens. You get to the break and then you start talking about the stuff you're really passionate about and you were talking about coaches that are a little limited in their thinking

that this is the only way to do it because I've done this for 30 years. And it worked for me. Totally. You know, especially gymnastics coaches and athletes. And I think there are some very good ones out there that are just amazing and they've accomplished a lot.

But you've only accomplished a lot in one lane. Right. And it's not teaching other people that are not in that lane what you've accomplished, but what the universal benchmarks that you hit were in terms of what was your mindset, mental, in terms of physical performance, what was it you did that really changed the game? Was it these positions? Was it this time that you spent holding those positions? Was it the kids that you were working with? What were those things? What were the elements? That's the kind of stuff that needs

to be transferable and transferred into other disciplines for it to matter. And that's not happening. People are just like, hey, it's my way or the highway. And if you're not doing it this way, you should not be doing it. You're doing it wrong. I'm going to tell you under the bus. Yeah. Go for it. Yeah. You said you had some beef with some of the things that coach Sommer said when we had him on our podcast a while back, probably about six months ago. And, and, uh, he, uh, and admittedly we had a hard time like there was a lot of uh pressure i felt a lot of pressure personally to try and direct the conversation to make it applicable to make it matter and then also maybe defend crossford a little bit because he's so aggressive negatively aggressive towards that you're gonna fight to keep the balance i could

tell that he didn't really grasp what was going on outside of gymnastics and that's kind of what you're talking about yes i i feel like i unfortunately that podcast i had to turn it off like 15 minutes in because i was just like why someone that has so much experience uh feels the need to attack rather than to explain and to open people's minds and eyes to things that they've discovered. And someone like Coach Summer is amazing because I've followed that programming. I've done that programming. It took me a while to decipher it. Me too. Yeah, I've done it as well. Right. And it's amazing. And if you just watch what he has accomplished in terms of even just

youtube videos of the kids doing the work that they're doing that's amazing and in order to get there there needs to be some sort of artistry and mastery of a discipline it's everything we talked about before everything the programming is not and has to be filled in you know amazing amazing but as soon as you are attacking and judging and saying that something is wrong, I feel like there's something there that is slightly off. And I don't know if it's that maybe you don't see that there's physical transferability or that there's some sort of personal beef there that we're not aware of. Maybe a little both.

Maybe a little both. Who knows? Maybe it's mad beef. But all I'm saying is that when I see that, immediately I tend to remove myself because I'm like, I know that this is a red flag in my opinion as a coach once I see that that narrow mind come out and it's just hard because it frustrates me knowing that the tools that someone like coach summer has or anyone that's been in the gymnastics world for that long those tools are so powerful and when they're not actually transferred into other disciplines, I feel like they're underutilized.

And it's almost like a detriment to the sport that I love, gymnastics. Yeah. Which is what gave me the foundation to what I'm doing right now. Right. Should we put you on the other side of a table with a barbell shrugged microphone between you and have the epic first edition of the barbell shrugged face-off? I would love it. And you know what I think? Two sides of the coinbell shrugged face-off. I would love it. And you know what I think?

Two sides of the coin. Sound there. Versus penalty. No, but the thing is- Two men enter, one man leave. It would end in a good way because we are speaking the same language. We're saying the same things. There's just something out there that is lawful.

And that's where the problem of media comes in. It's like right now, probably people are listening and they're thinking, Carl is a douchebag. Somebody is. And that's fine the problem of media comes in. It's like right now, probably people are listening and they're thinking, Carl is a douchebag. Somebody is. And that's fine. Somebody hates you. Yeah. And that's totally fine.

I get it. I hate myself sometimes too. It's an ice cream night. We go, I'm such a, everybody thinks I'm so cute, but on the inside, I'm just a fat little 15 year old girl who's shy. What I always say is like, I'm just trying to figure this thing out. You know, I didn't invent any of this thing. I just, I'm just talking about it and I'm trying to describe it to people. And I've had certain experiences in my life that I know have made me better.

And I'm trying to relate those experiences to other people. And that's what I do as a coach. That's what I do as an athlete for myself. And that's what I think everyone should be doing. And once you get stuck in one way, it's just, you're just limiting yourself and everyone around you. And I think that's a problem, especially if you are at a high level, like some of the coaches that are coming in

and some of the athletes that are coming in becoming coaches. It's funny, I've had some coaches that have been around a long time. And I come from more of the weightlifting background, obviously. And I see I've gotten, you know, people have contacted me like that. It's like 2012, 2013 this year. Oh, my God.

These CrossFitters. If I could teach them how to weightlift, they could get. I was like, like five years ago. You missed the boat. We've been teaching. We've had like olympic weightlifting coaches like there's nothing but weightlifting seminars going on 24 7 guys are snatching 300 pounds and then they're running 10 k's it's like i you could bring something to the table and you should i don't want to discourage it but i think that you're going to revolutionize it at this point.

Like the revolution already occurred. Right. People get it and people will come to your seminar, but that's what's going to happen. Yes. And you know, even to that point, barbell work in general is what CrossFit is actually anchoring themselves on. If you see the athletes, they're like, oh, when they go to the CrossFit games, all of a sudden they're like, when is CrossFit going to show up?

What do you mean by CrossFit? Oh, yeah, anything with a barbell and some wall balls. Right? We lucked out on that one. Because we're good with barbells. Totally. But I think the point here. If it was anchored in gymnastics, I'd be sitting on the sidelines watching. CrossFit is stupid.

I'm not doing that. But the question to ask is why barbell? Why the barbell? Why is the barbell the most effective way of developing strength, power, the physiological adaptations that you want? And how did it end up being that? I've got some answers for you.

Yeah, please. I know, but that's- Get ready for the bullshit. That's where I want to go. And that's where my conversation goes. Yeah. Yeah, I mean- The world is waiting for your answer. That's where I want to go. Yeah. And that's where my conversation goes. Yeah. Yeah, man. The world is waiting for your answer.

Where's your answer? Yeah, the barbell is extremely convenient for maximizing high force. You can load the body heavier with a barbell than probably anything else. And then you can also, because it's so flexible and spins and stuff, you can also move it really fast. This is an essential tool for developing strength for how long now? At least 200 years, maybe? It's easy to grab, and you can, you know,

what other object are you going to be able to load up to 500 pounds and pull off the ground? Right. Well, as Mark always said, Mark, it's the only thing you can lift a lot, but you can also incrementally load. That's the whole point. Incremental loading. I'm interested to hear the other side of that.

What's the opposite side? No, no, no. That's exactly what it is. And knowing that this is the most useful and effective tool to develop those things is very powerful. But knowing why and where it comes from is even more important. And who is actually manipulating the barbell and where that movement comes from is also important. And now it doesn't go just 200 years. Now we're talking back in the day when we were just picking stuff off the ground. And now that we've had to create these, you know, artificial rooms to

develop that, you call it gyms, right? No, yeah, no, it definitely, it definitely crossed my mind sometimes. I'm like really good at picking up a barbell. Pick up a log or a rock? Yeah. Might not be so good at that. And, you know, that's interesting, and that's something that I teach. I'm like, hey, here's your squatting mechanics. I ask people at my seminars. I'm like, hey, what does a perfect squat look like?

And everyone's like, okay, feet fly on the ground. Most people say way on their heels or whatever. They say toes slightly turned out, knees out, spine, you know, straight, whatever. If you don't do that, you'll get cancer. Exactly. And if I try to teach my dad how to squat, he's probably not going to look like that right away. When you were front squatting before, you probably didn't look like that. I squatted like a guy who was taught to push the hips back, back, back, back, back, get the bar low.

Use as much weight as you can because that's what strong people do. Fuck CrossFitters, all that stuff. Exactly. So taking that concept of not front squatting or back squatting with a barbell, but taking the concept of just squatting and breaking that down as something progressive is something that we do as coaches. And that's very clear. But on the other side of things,

there's our ability to build tools. And someone like Steve Jobs, especially coming from the Bay Area, there's an old interview with him where he was talking about Apple and his company. And one of the people in the audience asked him, so what kind of computers do you guys make? They're like, oh, wait a second. We don't make computers. Asshole. Exactly.

And he started talking about efficiency in terms of animals moving from point A to point B. And they did all this testing. And apparently the condor came out number one in efficiency. It was energy efficiency. Yeah. The human being came in like 36 or something. And then they tested again, but with the human being on a bicycle and he came out number one with a huge margin. And he said, one of the abilities that we have as human beings is to build tools to maximize our ability. And this is where I think the barbell is one of those tools is like, we've been able to build technology, a tool that allows us to maximize the way we naturally move. And I talk about this all the time.

I'm like, it's a constant battle of how we move skill versus tech. And in gymnastics, every four years, new equipment comes out. It's a more elastic, a little bit narrower. It's bouncier. And all of a sudden you can fit in an extra little piece there. And I think that's where the spinning of the barbell. And you're about to go visit with Lico. That's what they are doing.

Don't tell people that's a secret. Yeah. No, I'm just kidding. And you know how picky you get when you get a barbell and you're like, oh, this barbell sucks. It doesn't spin. It just, you know. Oh, you know what? In regard to the barbell spinning, it's funny because, yeah, that happens.

I'm pretty spoiled. I had an Lico bar and a works on bar both for years now um and uh we travel a lot so we're on other barbells and every once in a while i'm like i'm walking around the room trying to find the best one i walked into a gym one day and they were all rusted like no turnover at all oh my god how am i gonna train i'm a weightlifter. I still trained. I, you know, I just couldn't go do as much weight. Right. Um, perfect example. I snatched and it was about 25% less because if I try to do any more,

I was probably going to hurt myself. But, uh, the, what was I going with that? I'm sure you had a point, Mike. Oh yeah.

Tommy Kona, Tommy Kona. Like, uh, I was really fortunate to have read his book early in my weightlifting career. And he talks about, he was in like the, what's it? The camps. He was Japanese.

He was in the camps when he was a kid. Like, you know, where they took all the Japanese folks in the United States and put them in these camps. And he was like practicing with broomsticks. He had barbells that were like completely rusted um he had the least uh likely likely to succeed conditions for being a weightlifter but he trained hard anyway uh you know i don't think he had like a non-rusted up barbell for years and years and years and this dude like wins by like seven no is that bodybuilding he did bodybuilding and weightlifting

he won both yeah yeah mr universe and the and Universe and the Olympics, I want to say. Something like that. Yeah, he was in the Olympics. He was a world champion weightlifter, world champion bodybuilder. Amazing. I was trying to think of the numbers. Like, he was like, he won championships in weightlifting across several weight classes. Like, three or four.

Like, not like two. Like, oh, I bounced between these two. It's like, he lost a lot of weight. He gained some weight. And then with bodybuilding. Yeah. He, he was just, it was incredible. Amazing. And this guy didn't have an Oliko barbell. And so like anytime I walk in a gym and I'm like, I have that, that story runs through my head and I go, don't be an asshole. Just sometimes it's good to like, I like training with different barbells i mean just having some that spin less than others is variety probably not enough variety for for

you know just gpp but uh i tried not to get too uh elite in my barbell selection he's right he's known for saying that you shouldn't use anything that will assist you in training you shouldn't you shouldn't hook grip you shouldn't use straps you shouldn't use knee wraps you shouldn't wear shoes like you shouldn't use a bar that's any good at all that way when you do go to compete or the weeks leading up to competitions because you got to get used to the to the gear and whatnot that way when you get there everything's that much easier because you haven't been using it as a crutch your whole training cycle leading up to your competition you need a mix i talked with lauren chu our buddy who's uh i haven't seen him in a long time.

He's a professor of biomechanics at the University of Alberta and like a perfect score on GRE math, brilliant engineering type who decided, no, I don't want to do physics.

I want to do mechanics and weightlifting. And I was powerlifting at the time. We were training together and powerlifting is so different than weightlifting because the last thing we want

is nice shit sometimes. Like most of my bars at home are rusty and intentionally don't spin and are intentionally not flexible at all you take a nice legal bar you squat you're gonna get a pop at the bottom you're gonna stand up it's gonna feel you know very it's gonna be actively lifting with you you can use that as a strategy to lift more if you do that with a powerlifting squat bar you'll

you'll go down and you're gonna stay there because it's not gonna rebound it's gonna bury you right and it's a good thing that I think we talked to Lauren too. He said one day, usually I go into the gym, one room that I meet, people will freak out over shit's different. Like this bar doesn't spin the way mine does. Oh, fuck, I'm not going to make my opener. He's like, I always find the shittiest bar in any gym and lift on it intentionally.

So it's always an upgrade. It makes me think the most important thing you can do. That was before CrossFit though. It was like the shittiest bar in a weightlifting gym. Right. No, but like we would go to a place where he would lift with like a just a power bar that wouldn't spin hardly at all and he would just like i need to be able to lift with anything and then if i can make it hard intentionally uh and make myself uncomfortable and also sometimes make it to where things are optimal like to create the contrast again then

that's how i'm going to be the best lifter possible i can't just always seek out the most efficient thing the optimal shoes the best bar the best spot to train because that's not what really strong people have ever done it's not fucking what any guy who's ever lifted a huge amount of weight they've always done it because they were super uncomfortable for a long time and things weren't optimal equipment selection is usually like the not one of the first things on someone's mind who's an elite level athlete oh yeah i was lifting at a at a elite in one of the illegal booths at a conference like 10 years ago and tommy kona was there just hanging out watching and i went over the lift and i just grabbed the bar with my hook grip and just pulled and and then started to walk away and he was like if you've ever met tommy kona he's older now because he won those competitions back like in

the 50s and so you know old, very polite Japanese man. And he kind of like kind of shuffles over there and he's like, he's like son or whatever he called me. He was like, come over here. And he shows me in very great detail how to hook grip. And he's like, he's like, you know, just grab the bar and pull on it. Like he went through like a five or 10 minute explanation of like, you wrap your thumb and then the first finger and then the second finger

and then the third finger and then you have your perfect grip. And then he showed me again and it was like you're you're saying like jiro dreams of sushi yeah sushi guy like like is like really like that's amazing into making like the best possible piece of sushi that there ever possibly could be and he'll never get there he's trying to achieve mastery i felt like that's how tommy kona was when he was showing me how to hook grip something so simple you think you just reach around the bar and grab it but he's like it was like that that level of perfection that you don't get from other people he's like you're hook gripping son but you're not hook gripping like you you hear jimmy but you're not fucking listening to jimmy he's playing guitar you know i'm saying

well that's what what this whole thing is about and if we can just put coaches and athletes in that place where it's a reality check and you're just like oh why do I like the barbell this way okay now we can keep moving forward why do I like to squat this way can I squat different can I change those things how do I change that without messing everything I know up and still staying on target and that's just hard but it it's helpful there's something that rings true in all the progressions. Like, if I may elegantly and timely switch focus to your book, but the point was raised, like one thing I love about your book, dude, is that I've seen people talk about progressions and I've seen

all kinds of ways you say, do this. Now we're going to do this. It's harder. Master that and then do that. It's always a kind of a, a kind of a a cold clicking like not very elegant approach when you look in your book one the design dude thank you fucking home run dude that's the first thing the design of your book is it feels like a textbook it's super heavy it's super like the quality is there but it reads like a graphic novel of explanation movement like there's a lot of pictures that you go from the very essential elements of what a toddler would do to what a highlifter squatter would do. And every kind of squat in between elegantly moves from from point A to point B.

And there's no like weird tannins. You're not shoving in a necessary thing. It is each thing builds elegantly. If this, then this. And if you can do that, then these things become an option. That was the intention. And first of all, the design, of course, we had input in it, but we had two amazing designers, Nick D'Amico and Ryan Smith, aka Smitty. They were just phenomenal on taking what I had in my brain and laying it down. And then my co-author, he's a genius. He's like PhD neuroscience engineer, startup dude, done a lot of stuff. Very smart guy. Helped me organize this in a way where the craziness in my head could actually be laid out nicely on paper. And so thank you, first of all. And second is like people that read the book are probably going to be like, wait a minute.

He didn't really tell me to do anything. He just explained what I'm asking myself as I'm doing it. And some people don't like that. People like recipes. Give me the recipe. Give me the secret sauce. Yeah, that works, folks. But the cool thing I think about the book

and what I'm hoping people get out of it is that when they go through it, they're like, oh, here are some recipes. And as I went through the recipes by the end of it, if I actually practice them, I will actually have learned not how to make that recipe, but how to cook.

And that's what we're trying to do as coaches. I can teach you some techniques. It's like you learn how to fish. You can then go out and hear somebody explain something, go based on understanding that I could then take that and move that forward. You can't do that if you're just copying shit. Exactly. I think, you know, people kind of talking about transfer abilities. You learn those, those things about the human body and how it's supposed to move and all that stuff. And now you can go to any sport and perform relatively well. You know, if you learn how the body's just supposed to move optimally,

like the first day I went out to throw a shot put or a disc, they were like, oh, that's pretty good. And I was like, well, I kind of understand like loading of the hips and releasing and all this. And they're like, oh, we just know how to do the techniques. That's cool. And it's like, well, not that I'm tuning my horn too loud because I go do yoga and I look like shit. We're not all perfect.

Just trying to be. That's right. That's right. Well, yeah, that's cool. I mean, that's what it's all about. Just really understanding why we do what we do and how we can do it. And understanding that, you know, techniques that are taught in yoga and gymnastics and weightlifting, powerlifting, whatever it is, are good techniques. But what are they a product of and how are they benefiting us?

And that's where the mastery really comes into play where you're like, okay, I have all these tools. How do I use them to communicate? And that's where they're like, oh, you know, shot put, for example. I've never done it, but most likely if they taught me, I would be decent after a little bit. Could I throw far? No, because I'm a little guy, not very strong, but I probably learned the movement pattern fairly quickly. You'll see what jives between that and gymnastics and weightlifting in terms of like how one uses their hand to move and implement for max distance efficiently. That shit doesn't change. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's what's so powerful about the type of coaches that the strength and conditioning world is really showcasing. And it's that

people that come with the expertise or discipline that's completely foreign to maybe our skill set, we're able to improve them and help them simply by speaking the language of movement. But it's not just the language of movement. It's understanding the progression of movement and what those principles are really. I find that like gymnasts tend to move really well compared to other athletes you know people who grew up in gymnastics just kind of they take on other sports really easily uh you know if i were to have a kid and i wanted them if i want to have them raise them an optimal movement all that kind of stuff would you suggest putting them in a traditional gymnastics program or like like if if you were to have like a from birth, what would be your suggestion for teaching them?

Send them to a gymnastics camp in China where they hang at their peril? Yes, exactly. That's all you should do. No, I think gymnastics is a great foundation for all sports. And I think, depending if you're a man or a woman, but men don't really mature until they're like 30. Still debatable. Still deb debatable I'm 32 me too and my wife would probably yeah get in an argument yeah um but for for girls I think you know when they hit 14 they have such a solid foundation if they've done it since they were five six uh and then after that it's like what do you want to do do you want to do track and what do you want to do? Do you want to do track and field?

Do you want to do some Olympic weightlifting? Do you want to play some sports? Let's do that. I think that is a great foundation, especially the way the female gymnastics is approached. Yeah, because female gymnastics is, that sports like completely different than male gymnastics. It is.

It's not completely different, but it is very different. Certainly higher profile. Yeah, exactly. If you think about the CrossFit Games, for example, you don't see a lot of male gymnasts going in there. Right. And the reason that I have kind of come to a conclusion is because men's gymnastics has six events.

Out of those six events, four of them are upper body dominant. Two of them are lower body dominant. For the girls, they have four events where three of them are lower body dominant, one upper body dominant. Then for the men, it's like, okay, 70% strength. Like you can power through a lot of this stuff. 30% skill in terms of your ability to move, even though that's changing a lot. Okay. And don't quote that but it's we're gonna quote you on this yeah exactly uh and then for the girls it's more 70 skill in terms of movement ability and then 30 strength like that raw strength there's like a high super high impulses and forces when they're vaulting and fucking landing like that's gotta be i don't know how did they do that shit carl how do you do that the mats are pretty pretty forgiving and you know you you okay you progressively load

up to it i mean if you were to do it at the age of 18 for the first time you'll snap your ankles but because you started when you were four well you progressively loaded up to it i feel like you were building to like this big awesome point and. And then we fucking switched. You did, but it's okay. I'm going to get to it right now. This is the show. The girls, what happens is that because they've created this ability to move this skill ability, that's well-rounded and that's what they focus on in order to perform at the highest level. They're able to take that movement ability, almost that blanket and capacity, a capacity that they develop and apply it into other things with more ease. And then strength is something that's a little more linear in terms of the way that you can progress it.

That physiologic adaptation, you kind of know how to do that. But movement is hard, especially when you come in late. So if you're 18, 19, haven't been moving much, learning at that age is actually harder but the girls come in and they have more the guys if you've seen them if you look at my legs my legs are very skinny i have sticks for legs so going in to something like crossfit which is very lower body dominant in terms of creating power uh we're behind you don't want to big build legs because where you're gonna get your jeans you can't get those skinny jeans you start squatting too much but they're elastic you know i bought some elastic jeans last year it lasted a month because you were too the gains came too quickly the the

right in the crotch area the the thighs the balls pretty much started a fire when i was walking crotchfire.com. It was from walking. It wasn't from anything else. All that redness down there wasn't because your thighs were rubbing together. There's something else going on. Carl's point about there's a window and once it closes, you can always be strong, you can improve, but

certain qualities aren't going to be developed. I think for me, in powerlifting, my strength was always the thing. It was never about movement quality, and it was never about the ability to rapidly, like mechanically in a sound way, reverse a load. It's like I never jump off a thing and land it with good mechanics because no one's paying attention to that.

Like a gymnast would jump and land perfectly, and also there's a huge impulse, a huge spike of force, and it can stay mechanically sound and reverse it into stand. How's a guy military press 300 pounds? He fucking shoves it up. How's a guy military press 300 pounds? He fucking shoves it up. How's a guy beautifully jerk 500? He dips and with perfect mechanics he can rapidly stop

the movement of the weight, make the bar wrap around him and he flicks it off of him and it goes on its own. That's something I can never do because I never worked that quality. That window closes and you can get better, but you're never going to be Ilya Nelya who just tosses 400 pounds over his head and catches it. The window closes, man. And you don't want to say that you're too late for the game. You're never completely too late. You're maybe not going to make it to Olympics, but that doesn't mean you can't constantly

improve on your ability to move. And that's another message that I want to send is that I want people to continue moving for as long as possible. I'm hoping that I'm going to live until I'm 110. I don't know if that will happen, but I want to live for a long time. And I'm sure you don't want to hear that. Hey, you know what? In two, three years, you're not going to be squatting. You're not going to be doing the stuff that you love right now. No, I've definitely shifted recently to, uh, training for health and movement versus like just trying to get, you know, pushing the performance, uh, as far as possible.

Exactly. I woke up, you know, several days, maybe a couple of years in a row. Oh, this hurts. So now I wake up pain free.

Totally. Cause, uh, the, the, the method of training is different. The mentality is different. But that's what allows progress to continue.

You can't just keep beating yourself up. Like now you can, you're in many ways, you're much better. I still hit PRs, but the focus is on the movement. Yeah, you can't just keep doing things the same old way. As you change and the world changes, you've got to switch your point of view, man. Yeah, eventually, you know, your movement will produce the numbers, but you can't be chasing the numbers, especially when you're over 30.

It's kind of the same way with everybody. They hit 30 for dudes. It's like hit 30. Now I got to like, now I got to do things properly. What's wrong with me? I actually have to try. It's like people when I was 25,

I was like, you know, you should probably try a different way. I was like, this fucking works. Shut up. It'll work today. Right.

And then, and then that shoulder is going to like really be fucked up. Yeah work today right and then that shoulder's gonna like really be fucked up mhm yeah alright ready to wrap this up I am thank you

promo where can we find you on the Instagram well Instagram of course Carl Powley that's the easy one Twitter the same thing freestylethebook.com

that's a big one we do recommend that book keep it on hand refer to it where would you prefer people buy that book from? You know, Amazon is so easy, but always supporting your local stores is a great thing to do.

It's at every Barnes & Noble in the country, which is great. But any independent store is awesome, especially if you go in there and they don't have it and you just place the order through them. They always appreciate that, and that's just a big one. So supporting that local store is something that I'm trying to do through them. They always appreciate that. And that's just a big one. So supporting that local, local store is definitely something that I'm trying to do a lot. And if you're a gym owner, can you buy a wholesale, like buy a hundred and sell it at your box? Definitely. And I, and I highly recommend it because it's, you know, one of those things that one, I put a lot of effort

into it, but I know that it's going to be beneficial for a lot of coaches and they will appreciate it. It's one of those things you can just pick up, look at. It's really quick. And for those that want to dig in a little deeper, there's a lot of nitty gritty and stuff. Maybe we can set up a deal where people can click on something and get a deal on a batch of books and easily order and we can get them involved. Anything for you guys. Let's do it. Thank you. Awesome. Thanks for joining us. Make sure you go to barbellshrug.com. So many barbells. That's what we do here to barbellshrug.com. This is Barbell Shrug. So many barbells. That's what we do here. Barbellshrug.com.

Sign up for the newsletter and we'll keep you up to date what's going on. Later. Thanks, Carl, man. Thank you. Thank you.