Barbell Shrugged - 77- The Deadlift Episode: How To Avoid Back Injury and Increase Your Strength for CrossFit

Episode Date: August 21, 2013

On this episode of the Barbell Shrugged podcast we break down the Deadlift.  We talk about all the different variations, how to use them to increase strength, how to avoid injuring your back, and more!

This week on Barbell Shrugged, we talk everything deadlifts. Everything you want to know about deadlifts. We talk about it today. Listen now. Hey, this is Rich Froning. You're listening to Barbell Shrugged. For the video version, go to barbellshrugged.com. Welcome to Barbell Shrugged.

I'm Mike Bledsoe here with Doug Larson and Christopher Moore. Today we're going to be talking about deadlifts. We were sitting around and thinking, what should we talk about next? And we were like, man, we had a shit ton to say about squats. Yeah, and that was a good episode. And we had a really great time doing that. And so we figured we'll talk about deadlifts there's a virtual cornucopia of just a treasure trove of things you can talk about with the deadlift and at first i was thinking man how are we going to fill up at least 40 minutes of show

talking about deadlifts but then i thought about the squats i thought the same thing there and then we talked for an hour and a half filled up then Doug filled up like five iPad pages worth of notes. Which is like. Everything resolved itself. Which is like one page in real life. But whatever. I don't know. I don't know what to say about that, man.

So real quick, make sure you guys get over to barbellshark.com. Sign up for the newsletter. We got a lot of new stuff going on. And if you want to be informed about what's happening next and when new episodes post, make sure to head on over there. Put your email in. What do they get, Doug, if they put their email address in on barbellstroke.com a sweet video of you with rich froning the top eight snatch mistakes number eight snatch mistake is a special top secret it's a secret you have to put your email in to find out what number eight is it's pretty funny so if you haven't seen it, check it out. The thing is, there used to be seven snatch mistakes, but now there's eight.

So, I mean, you obviously don't know. Is eight a secret massage tip between you and Rich? People can see if they share the extra special emails. I didn't touch it, man. It's just a buzz. Buzz is back. It's the opposite of a buzz kill it's a bad thing

a buzz kill is a bad thing stop you're good you're good it's gone I'm just gone good job Doug good job dude

that didn't work I have no idea if that was me but I'm taking credit yeah we'll give you the credit that's okay also we have a the six month muscle gain program

starting up in uh like a week about two weeks the registration will open and then it'll open about about five six weeks from right now something like that it begins very beginning of october but we let people register the month before uh make sure to go and sign up for that because uh it it's sold out the last couple times so we'll see what happens this time. Go to muscle.barbellshrug.com if you want to see more information about that program. The registration will open up

and then your life will open up to a whole new set of strength possibilities. Doug, why would we want a deadlift? Basic things for a deadlift all right so uh basic uh basic things for a deadlifts my opinion deadlifts and as a side note uh pull-ups are my two favorite things to judge if you've gotten overall stronger it has a great yes no quality about it if you picked it up off the ground and you got it locked out you did it there wasn't like oh you didn't hit depth or

or you bounced the weight or anything like that so uh deadlift is probably my favorite thing for assessing overall total body strength from pushing on the ground all the way out to your hands but there's still plenty of people who will bitch and moan about the way you deadlift i saw a video i saw this video this was true again we talked about as we were doing our pre-gaming over coffee and bullshit. I saw a YouTube video of one of the giant strongmen. I think his guy used to be the, he's like six foot eight. Brian Shaw. Brian Shaw.

Six foot eight, like 450 pounds. This is the biggest human being I think that is alive now. And strongest out. But there's a video of him doing like like a 985 deadlift right single no i i didn't think anybody would ever argue that that's strong and here is a fucking guy who posted on the youtube page sorry for my heart piece ladies and gentlemen don't don't bang me on the comments for that i'm doing heart piece this morning but somebody says oh yeah pretty strong i bro. But he's wearing straps. It doesn't count.

Go, wow, man. The guy deadlifted 985 pounds, which is sort of a rare instance. Well, if we all put straps on, we could deadlift that. Oh, yeah. But as soon as you start arguing with trolls on the internet, just keep that in mind. That's somebody out there will call a thousand pound deadlift not strong. You cannot win. The force is too strong with these ones. These are not the droids you're looking for avoid at all costs trouble no if you're a small guy like a double body weight

deadlift isn't that crazy but it's not like that for bigger guys that strength curve isn't isn't linear like it tapers off the bigger you are you can do a triple body weight clean if you weigh 110 pounds but you can't do a triple body weight clean if you're 350 so let me assure so let me just take a pause and say the deadlift like doug is saying is probably like the definitive test of strength can you pick up that heaviest weight or can you not it's like wrestling it's like throwing something heavy for distance it's a fundamental test of your awesomeness as a strong person the degree to which you are awesome and yes if you wear straps do it that's fine if that makes you feel

good it's still a really good thing to do i think you kind of make the point is uh you're using this as a measure to see if you got stronger so you're this may not be like the number one test of strength across the spectrum of all fitness you know what i mean like well i did lift more than you so i'm stronger than you it's a thing about like am i stronger than i was before it's a good point so because i honestly don't think i mean the deadlift can't be just the only thing we're looking at for overall strength that's not the end all be all but but it's the one that i like to use just because i'm better at deadlift because he's better at it but you know it's you can find other things that are good tests of strength but nothing you could argue being just better than yeah the problem with some say uh

why i do agree with you is like something like a squat you know because one guy might be squatting deeper than another and you know just because i. High bar versus low bar stance, shoes, belts, wraps. It's more complicated. With the deadlift, you reach down, you pick up the barbell, you stand up. Yeah, you did it or you didn't do it. And then when you set the world record in your local globo gym, then all the hot chicks come to you and want to hang out with you. And then you drive away in your car that is now a Porsche.

Everything opens up to you because the world loves good deadlifters. The universe loves that shit. Oh man. Another, another point. Uh, it's a raw strength thing. It's not super technical. Uh, so it's not, it's not compared to snatching. It's not really that technical. It's easier to learn. So if you're brand new, then it's an easier movement to to pick up it doesn't take you three years to perfect your deadlift in most cases unless you have some severe mobility issues coming in if you're the guy who's like what do you mean they're different aren't all these pools the same then you shouldn't be listening to this show if maybe you should be listening to this show

because we're gonna talk about how they're different well maybe okay that's the point stay tuned i know plenty of people who are like why is the deadlift different than the snatch we're about to tell you all the differences but chris is gonna say if you don't know you shouldn't be here go away yeah what are you talking about yeah uh the other reason that we're talking about deadlifts is that it's probably the most fundamental movement pattern that there that there is just in your regular everyday life like everyone picks up stuff off the ground if you're going to school you look at oh my backpack's on the ground you go over there and you pick it up and it's good to have a fundamental knowledge about how to pick things up just in the regular everyday world. That's a very good point. Common sense

tip number 500. Yeah. Sometimes in life you got to pick things up off the things. I've said that on the show many times. We're not teaching people how to lift weights. We're teaching people how to move and weights are just a very convenient thing to uh to teach people with and that's why getting better deadlifts makes you better at picking up your school books being a human being then you can they become smarter and you form your own entrepreneurial venture when you graduate and become rich and a millionaire and because then now you actually get all the chicks in the mansions because you don't have that left that's true third idealism he's putting this is what chris believes now before he believed that deadlifting would get him chicks,

but now he thinks money will. You opened up my consciousness. Well, I was listening to Barbell Business, so. Yeah, well, that'll happen. I've been enjoying those episodes lately. Yeah, so like when I teach fundamentals, one of the things I really make a good point to say is this is not something you only use in the gym.

When you go home, practice deadlifting, whether it's a pencil, golf ball, baby, whatever. Use this form whenever you do anything because those guys that hurt their back picking up golf balls, it's because they're doing it wrong. They reach over. They're slouched all over. If you go down and you you pick up a golf ball like you deadlift the potential for injury pretty much goes away and that's kind of what I try to when when I'm teaching somebody new

that's kind of where we go it's not an unsafe movement I've had like my mom for example growing up you know I'm a high school kid I'm 17 years old I go oh I deadlifted 400 pounds today my mom's's like, oh my God. Like when she, when I was first getting into this, you know, you're going to blow your back. My little boy picking up 400 pounds. I've always been very fortunate that I had really good mobility. I did gymnastics when I was really young and I've had good flexibility my whole life. So I never had mobility issues. I was always able to, as a person with good deadlifting leverage, get into a good position. So I've been very fortunate to have pretty good deadlift technique pretty much since day one which is awesome so and also having a good strength coach since day one as well i was always

in an environment where i wasn't like met conning with deadlifts on my first day where i was like super fatigued and my back was like bowing like a scared cat like somebody's like you know what we did yesterday 800 rounds of deadlifts what should we do today one arm deadlift that's right which is like that but i kind of make that joke but see i had the opposite experience as doug where i my foundation was self-taught through high school and then getting involved with a strength and conditioning crew when i played college football they didn't know what the fuck they were doing so i ended up blowing out like two lumbar discs because we would do things like,

what did we do on Monday? We pulled a heavy rack pull. What should we do today? Probably try to beat that rack pull PR. So dude, I mean honestly, so with rounded back and people who thought deadlifting was just try harder, just like their squats and everything else. You want to get better, just, oh I see you're rounding.

Let's keep the weight on your back and let's have you try not to round that was the approach to teaching all this shit don't round that but that that ruined my football career forever that destroyed my back it took me 10 years to build it back i think i think we're gonna get into that uh especially after what's going on here dog tail between my legs dog's gonna unplug things you should probably get the dog out of this podcast studio just to uh just to close that loop a little bit not to talk about how i had great deadlifting technique and i just like to talk about myself the reason i brought that up was that uh you know growing up i would have good technique and and i would be doing it in a safe manner but but still my mom not knowing anything about weightlifting you say well like you're

gonna screw your back up if you keep doing that. And I would say, I don't know. It's not a fundamentally unsafe thing to do. If I walk over to my backpack, as an example, and I pick it up, do you think that's unsafe? And she's like, well, no. I'm like, well, that's not that different. It's the exact same thing. The only reason that picking my backpack is safe is because I'm strong enough to do it correctly. Well, if I'm strong enough to do 400 pounds correctly, then it's still safe.

As long as my technique doesn't change and I don't get out of position and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The movement pattern isn't the thing that's unsafe. It's safe if you can do it correctly and you're strong enough to do it correctly with hundreds of pounds, then it's okay. Is that when your mom was like, what in the hell have I give birth to? This little smart creature is already functioning at this level tell me that's a pretty wise thought to have when you're in fucking high school

yeah again i was very lucky to have a confident strength coach growing up a lot of people didn't you know 15 20 years ago uh yeah that makes sense i guess yeah you know i'm still trying to teach my mom how to turn on a fucking dvd player so what kind of different deadlifts do we have? I mean, there's a, there's about a million different ways that we can practice picking things up off the ground. There's a, there's a lot of variety and depending on your, your body type and your mobility, like there's some that might not be very good for you to do or very safe for you to do.

And there's some that are still a good option. So everyone knows classic, regular, regular deadlifting. I'll say where your feet are basically hip width apart and your hands are hanging basically straight down from your shoulders and you're pulling on a regular bar at regular bumper plate height it's a regular deadlift then you got sumos and snatch grip deadlifts in and olympic like clean snatch deadlifts you got hex bar deadlifts and deficit deadlifts and rack pulls like chris was saying there's a ton of different types of deadlifts and again like i said was saying, there's a ton of different types

of deadlifts. And again, like I said, the one that you choose that works out best for you, you know, that'll depend on a variety of factors, how, how much training experience you have, whether you're a beginner or an advanced lifter, how tall you are, even what your overall leverages are and how long your, your femurs are. Yeah. You don't have to get stuck in this world of only one single type of deadlift. I was teaching fundamentals the other day and a guy came in and he's an older guy. He was probably, I'll be generous and say he was 60, maybe 55 or 60 years old and he had very poor mobility

and everyone comes through and does a practice deadlift with 95 pounds and they all look good enough to get by for the the moment just to say yeah you know you're probably a little bit round there we'd want to make this change and that change but then one guy comes in and he looks significantly worse than the rest of the group so for that guy having very poor mobility and after talking to him he already has a back injury you know he probably isn't going to pull deadlifts from the floor with a regular bar for that guy we're probably going to have him do maybe some type of a hex bar deadlift or a sumo deadlift something that's a little more conservative and a little bit easier to get into a good position you know it's easier to get into position because you don't need quite as much range of

motion with those other movements and then we'll probably have to elevate the bar a little bit so he can start not at mid shin but more like maybe above the knee like he's doing a rack pull because that's that's the position that he can get a neutral spine with he can't get a neutral spine any lower than that yeah i'd say it reminds me of i posted a video on the barbell shrugged wall of me doing a speed pull which is just just a fancy way of saying i use a little less weight and i pulled it as fast as i could you know getting a good training effect without beating my backup and i did it standing on three or four rubber mats so my feet are elevated higher than they normally would be.

That's called a deficit deadlift because you're pulling from a deficit. Very good exercise. Somebody posted on there, kind of joking, but he said, yeah, this is great. I might try this. I did hear one time Eric Creasy call this the stupidest exercise ever. Yeah, he just wrote an article about that not too long ago. And I think the point I want to make is, obviously I like Eric, Eric's a smart guy, but my point is that I think everybody should really stop thinking in terms of what is the best version of exercise to do because that just all depends on you and where you're at.

All these are just tools that can be amazingly effective for you. If you can't grab a bar at regular bar height mid-shin without rounding over, then for you, the regular deadlift becomes a silly thing to do because you're going to maybe hurt yourself. No one would call deadlift silly, but doing that now for you could be...

The better option is a hex bar, and you could walk down. The same thing goes for if you've got an altered... Your experience with altered physiology, altered mechanics mechanics for eric it might be stupid for me i get really strong and fast when i try this kind of exercise a lot of this thing is stupid and not stupid i mean eric doesn't train guys to get bigger deadlifts right he doesn't train power lifters he trains primarily baseball players and the same thing when you got uh some of these other coaches, what's his face, does mostly hockey players. And so he's like Mr. Single Leg, right?

So these guys may badmouth squatting or back squats or deadlifts or something like this, but these are guys that they are not in the business of training powerlifters or even a lot of times not even general population. Yeah, Mike Boyle deadlifted badmouth deadlifts quite a bit. of training powerlifters or even, a lot of times, not even general population. Yeah, Mike Boyle deadlift, badmouthing, badmouthing, deadlifts quite a bit, but Eric Cressy

loves deadlifting. He talks about deadlifting all the time. He's a really good deadlifter too. He really is. He's a really good deadlifter.

He deadlifted like 630 or something at least. Yeah, 650. He's chasing 700. I don't know if he's gotten it yet at like 180 pounds.

Yeah, and his body weight, he can't be more like six feet tall, right? I mean, that's a good lift. Yeah, I want to say he's relatively short. I've never met him, but I don't think he's over six foot. Yeah, and his body weight, he can't be more than six feet tall, right? I mean, that's a good lift. Yeah, I want to say he's relatively short.

I've never met him, but I don't think he's over six foot. Yeah, so sometimes these guys, their sole focus is on improving these guys in this one sport. And yeah, maybe taking a baseball player and having them do a bunch of overhead presses isn't good. But it doesn't mean it's not good for everybody. So yeah, you can use these really fancy kinds of deadlifts to super target certain aspects you're not good at whether you're a beginner who can't get down or advanced powerlifter who needs to target a certain part of the lift but i would argue hey do a deficit if you have the range of motion everything's good because you can use less weight and get a good training effect if i'm a baseball player why not

do that why not deadlift less and train harder? There's always ways to look at this. It's not like you can just easily say, that's stupid. Well, if it makes sense, if you can come up with a good reason why somebody needs a longer range of motion. Like for me, I got short arms. I struggle to get in a position at the beginning of a deadlift. If I can make myself get good at a little bit of a harder position, it's easier to get in a good deadlift position when I lower my feedback down. It's like the opposite of a rack pull. If it's super easy

to get in a position for a rack pull because the bar is high, you don't have to bend over as much, and a deadlift is a little harder still, then a deficit's even harder still. And then you can do things like a snatch grip deficit deadlift, which I do occasionally,

which makes things super duper, stupendously hard. And when you're a fat guy with a big belly, it's almost impossible if you work and get good at it, then a regular deadlift when you're a fat guy with a big belly it's almost impossible if you work and get good at it then a regular deadlift you have good form all of a sudden it's mad it's magic yeah it's magic how that works with your leverages you're you're stronger at the bottom is that correct and you have trouble locking out yeah usually whenever i

like the most i ever deadlifted and i'm actually pretty proud of what i could do based on the fact i have a really long back that's injury prone for all those bad decisions I made years ago. Short stubby arms, short stubby legs. Oh, stubby is relative. Not designed to deadlift. I should have been a weightlifter, not a powerlifter, but that's not how my karma worked out, man. So, yeah.

So, for me, I always would pull really quick and explosively off the bottom, and then locking out with this long back would be a real chore. It would be really hard. So I always got better, faster off the bottom by doing these deficit lifts so I could get the bar moving faster, had a better chance of completing the lift. It always helped me a lot. Try to outrun the part of the lift that you're not quite as strong at. Yeah, we'll probably get into it a little later,

but I'll say how I balance that lift with other kinds of deadlifts to give me my best personal chance of being a good deadlift that might help people think about how they could use some tools in their training. I'm sure we'll talk about application later. I don't want to. Look at me being all focused. Yeah, he's like. Let me tease the audience. I'm setting that up.

I'm not going to go do it now. I'm going to be focused. This is the new enlightened Chris. CTP. Nod the camera to give me acknowledgement for being a smarter man. Oh, he didn't do it. Oh, damn. I won't let the trolls get me this week.

No, sir. Okay, so you mentioned it. The whole point of a troll is that no matter what you do, they're coming after you. Let them come for something new. So you mentioned the deficit deadlift. We talked a little bit about Eric Cressy mentioning that in a recent article

that he wrote I would imagine I haven't read that article but I'm going to project a little bit since I've read a bunch of his stuff in the past that he's not against

deficit deadlift at all and Doug loves Eric Cressy I do he pretty much Eric Cressy if you're listening I've read your stuff for a long time

and I think sweaty bro fest everything you do is great I remember back in the day Doug's like like, Eric this, Eric that. I'm like, just shut up about Eric Cressy already. Eric and Doug sitting in the tree. Again, Eric coaches mostly baseball players.

I was a coach for the Colorado Rockies Class A advanced team in 2006. I followed a lot of his baseball stuff and then I've been reading his stuff ever since. So Eric's a smart guy. I enjoy reading his stuff. But for the most part, I'm going to assume that he's not bad-mouthing the movement. He's kind of saying what you're saying. It's not a bad movement, but most people, especially new people, probably aren't doing it as well as they should, and it's not the variation for them.

Let me qualify and say, I didn't read that article. I just read the comment. I did like most idiots on there. I just read the comments like, okay, well, if that's the case, then I don't agree or whatever, but it's fine. I read the abstract. Articles are hard to read. It's the same as reading the paper.

Hard to read, man. It's long. It takes a long time. Too long. Did not read. If I don't understand a part of it, I'll feel stupid. I got to think hard. I don't want to fucking think hard.

I'll just move on with my life. Do something else. So if we were to kind of rank the difficulty of deadlifts, if you're brand new and you want to start on an easier variation, and then as you become more advanced and start doing some of the harder variations, what variations are probably some of the easier ones you'd start with? And then which ones are some of the harder ones that you could get to more down the line? I guess the hex bar deadlift.

Is that the only way that bar is called? The hex bar? Hex bar or trap bar. Trap bar, hex bar, deadlift is probably, in my mind, has got to be the easiest deadlift. Is that the only way that bar is called? The hex bar or trap bar? Trap bar, hex bar deadlift is probably, in my mind, has got to be the easiest deadlift to do. Yeah, you need less range of motion of the hips. You can put some of the stress back towards your ankles. Treat it almost more like a squat than a deadlift. So the bar is a little higher.

Your feet are a little bit further. So the bar is kind of right in the middle of your body. Yeah, a lot of times. You have a favorable position to start with, easier position. The hex bar will have a piece of the bar that pops up two or three inches taller than what the weights are at. You have two options usually. It's kind of like an elevated handle. That's easily, I think, the simplest.

If you struggle with the deadliftlift that one will be your starting point Yeah, the hex ball and then and you can just do we don't worry about your shins at that point You don't have to worry about like whether you're going around your legs or not with it I'm a guy you know you'll feel it immediately if you're too far forward or too far back The way we'll just kind of roll around that you try to pick it up So it's a great way to teach you where to be And I guess the next easiest version I think would just be an elevated deadlift like a block pull or a rack pull where it's a little higher so you don't have to work so hard to get

in a position you just gotta have somebody watch you because it's easy to do too much weight i guess and stop making mistakes yeah that's certainly true that's the the balance for the rack pulls with new people is that if you start someone above the knee for example where the bar starting above the knee and not mid shin they can pull more weight but they're still new and so you don't want them to be pulling like a super max deadlift where they're pulling 130 percent of what they actually really could deadlift uh in a you know from the floor that was one of the main lessons i learned in power things everybody thinks that some people do this because they do believe in it but if you can really overload like i know guys who who are 800 pound deadlifters guys used to roll withlifters, guys they used to roll with.

That sounds cool, right? Guys they used to roll with back in the day. They would do like 800-pound deadlifts on the ground, but they could do rack pulls like 1,100 pounds. Yeah. And they would just overload their lifts so much, their spine would be so stressed by that. They just say, look, dude, if I can do that, I just don't fear an 800-pound deadlift attempt in the meet. I go, well, you're definitely right. But I think for most people,

it's an advanced lifter. For most people, you need to think about what position would you be in if you had pulled it off the ground and now found yourself in this rack pull position. So it's going to be shoulders maybe a little bit more of a bar. You're not going to be wedging yourself underneath

and trying to lift the most possible weight from the top of your thigh because that won't really help you because you won't be looking like that yeah and a regular deadlift or a regular clean pull or snatch pull that's something a lot of people don't understand that's the thing the same thing with like yeah the pulls off the blocks too is people make the mistake of setting up in a different position than what you're going to be in as if you had pulled it off the floor if your job is a common mistake If you want to be a strong man and you're going to compete in that movement, a partial deadlift for max weight, learn how to do the max weight. But if you're trying to become overall better at pulling,

then you've got to think, how can I use this to make me better, not test myself on this, not manipulate this to do the most weight because my ego needs to be satisfied. In the pulls, if you're trying to do the overload thing, you're trying to maximize and optimize your pull from the floor. And if you don't have the range of motion already set in for from the floor,

you probably have no business in the overload scenario. So, you know, range of motion first and then start playing around with maybe some of these overload principles. Sounds very wise to me, Mike. That's why I'm here. So you got hex bar deadlifts or trap bar deadlifts.

And then rack pulls would be probably number two. Or maybe we put them in the same category. I think they could be very hard. But in terms of technical need, they're pretty similar. I mean, you don't have to work so hard to be in good position. I'd probably put sumo deadlifts as the next variation in that progression. Where sumo deadlifts are easier to get into a good position compared to a regular from the floor you know traditional style deadlifts where your feet are on the inside your hands are on the outside a sumo deadlift if you've never done before your

feet are wide and your hands are inside your feet so your your your arms are hanging right between your knees basically so you have a wider stance deadlift i have a novel thought do you think that is it's a very comfortable position to be in for a lot of people i guess that's why you see a lot of people won't name names i'm not gonna name names on this show but a lot of people like to do cleans where they jump those fucking feet out just do my position to catch instead of just bending their knees to get down i wonder if there's any sort of tie into that i have no idea but there could be yeah i think there's more of a just a a motor it's a motor pad yeah i can't have to let the the thought finish itself in my mind first the neotropics have to do their work first yeah i think you know when people people aren't actually very comfortable at front squatting if they're having a hard time catching a clean you know

they're they actually probably don't aren't very good at getting under the bar. They're probably not finishing the pull. There's too many other variables there. We don't go down that rabbit hole. I started trying to go down that rabbit hole and I realized that we should fucking just get out of this. Let's get out of the rabbit hole and say we'll make this point. If we could make one point right now, I'd say That was your fault, by the way.

Don't you point fingers at me, jerk face. I'd say that the point I would make is that before you get too caught up on reaching for the load i'm like i need to be able to pull that trust me if you spend the time it takes to make sure your mechanics are what they should be not perfect but what they should be now maybe that's about a front squat and a clean and if you want a future in that exercise and you're starting now learn it the right way now don't start chasing load and make it impossible to learn the form later and you're starting now learn it the right way now don't start chasing

load and make it impossible to learn the form later because you're going to cement something in the place that can't be corrected and you're going to you're going to fuck yourself in the future take your time to learn it really like what i've spent the last year of my life doing that set me up for a new wave of prs now go back and make sure you your posture is as good as it can be by the way then start loading the bar. I just want to bring this up because it crossed my mind. All these people that talk about training their posterior chain and, you know, I need a low bar box squat. I don't even talk about that anymore.

I'm like, look. It's too many words. We're going to list off like 10 exercises that are great for posterior chain. So don't worry about it. You don't have to. It's like primal. We just solved your problem with this episode. I promise.

Let me tell you this if you use if you use the words primal paleo posterior chain i don't know it's a lot of p sorry uh if you say things like schwag i hate you i hate you stop it it's just we don't need all these stupid words for these things we're saying chris says these things and then he uses the words himself or all the world doesn't all use him and then he claims that he loves me you know I love you despite your faults despite your faults cuz you have that great beard in your kind soul so I'll tolerate some buzzwords thing but we don't need these things I don't know if we should talk about that's right you might be getting

rid of his beard no we're not talking about these bees about the post a video about that is there so so should we say next up to that Doug I guess would be a regular devil that the sumo deadlifts as being the next hardest thing yeah I go along with that a regular death this is a pretty middle-of-the-road deadlift variation for people to do here's what gets fun where how do you get things hard what's your next hardest thing after just regular deadlift after regular deadlift either either I would probably go with a snatch grip before I'd go with a deficit pull and then snatch grip deficit pulls

would probably be the hardest variation and then I would say I'll make the inception loop one hole deeper I'd say my new favorite exercise is snatch grip sometimes deficit stiff legged deadlifts which I really enjoy but you gotta have some time

because you'll rip your hamstring that's a small percentage of the population and then i really was saying in the kitchen like so that remind people you've been what powerlifting for so i guess forever or white lifting yeah you gotta you have to be strong to where you know what you're doing so don't do this as a beginner but i i really like them uh famously i guess uh dimitri klokov has made them pretty well known because this dude this cat if you don't know who that is, just type in Klokov on YouTube and

spend your Sunday afternoon watching really awesome, fun Russian videos, like one where he's doing a 230 pound or 230 kilo power clean as some guy plays a, what's this instrument you do this? Accordion. Some guy's playing Russian music on an accordion.

It's great stuff. It's like polka and accordion. It's great stuff. But he does polka and weightlifting. He's got one video where he does like a 250 kilo snatch grip. So hands wide, stiff legs, so knees straight,

deadlift like five reps, like 550 pounds with that. He's not trained for health either. Keep that in mind. He's trained to be as strong as he can be,

which he's close to that. If you watch that video, he's round. His back is is round in the video and kind of like mike was just saying about about the conversation we're having in the kitchen it has been a little bit round yeah when you when you do a snatch grip deficit straight leg deadlift pull you've been pilot from 25 years you you know what kind of round is especially if it's round with your thoracic spine your upper back as opposed to your lower back and you know what a little bit round but safe is versus like disc-blowingly round and unsafe. So if you're brand new, if you've been lifting for less than five years, you probably shouldn't do any pulls where you're round upper or lower back at all. Just stick with basics.

You can still get plenty strong having a straight back doing regular deadlifts. You don't need to do all these weird, crazy variations that you see, you know, one of the best weightlifters cloak off in the world doing. So don't fall into the trap. Do the basics. We did a care, but this is the hardest version of this thing you can do. Yeah. Be cool. All right. We're going to take a break real quick.

When we come back, we're going to about uh exactly how you can improve your deadlift and then i actually want to touch on uh olympic lifts deadlifting in uh regard to weight lifting so we'll touch on that as well we'll touch it and the uh the technique you're about to watch is gonna be phenomenal i know that so much technique i mean of how to do things we have a technical all right welcome back to barbell shrug the deadlift edition that's not hardcore I mean I was thinking about thinking about TV and how all those news anchors you know they get real into it you just titillated me. Yeah. All right, first I want to throw something out there real quick for everybody.

We're talking about deadlifts in regard to getting better at deadlifting and CrossFit and stuff like that. But I want to talk a little bit about Olympic weightlifting. And if at any time you're wanting to get better at weightlifting, doing a lot of this, a lot of deadlift stuff we're talking about now may not be beneficial. I actually advise a lot of people who are CrossFitters who want to spend a period of time getting better at their weightlifting technique

to take a break from doing any deadlifting at all. You may do some clean variation of the deadlift or a snatch deadlift where you are practicing the bar path at a sub, what was the word I'm looking for? Sub-maximal. Sub-maximal.

There you go, coach. Yeah. So you're not going to be going really heavy. You're going to be going off a percentage. This is why a lot of times if you look at a weightlifting program and snatch pulls, snatch deadlifts, clean deadlifts, they're being prescribed at a percentage of your clean or your snatch uh because you want to be able to practice proper bar path and that's what it's all about so uh you're suggesting that

the deadlift is not the same as a cleaner snatch right that is correct okay a clean and we we have a technique what on this by the way i agree with you i know uh There's a technique what on this, and we talk about how a clean is not a deadlift where you jump at the end. All right. So I know a lot of people tend to teach it that way for some reason, but it's not the case. So if you ever want to actually get good at the Olympic lifts, you should probably take a break from deadlifting for a while and work on your weightlifting technique. And part of that is leaving out the traditional deadlift and maybe doing some snatch deadlift or clean deadlift work. Don't be the guy who goes, if I deadlift more, I'll clean more. Because that shit ain't true. I'll show you 8,100 million versions of somebody who tried to get better at deadlifting through powerlifting means,

and it didn't affect their clean. That'll be true if you're really bad at it so it all depends like it you talk a lot about low-hanging fruit chris really bad at what i do my fruit hangs low i cleaned what are you talking about anything well if you're if you're bad at dead lifting or if you're bad at cleans like if one of those go up the other one's gonna probably go up as well like like like say you're only dead lifting 300 pounds and you can clean say you know 200 or 150 pounds yes well if your deadlift goes up to 400 you probably can do a shitty power clean that that's a very short that's a very short window exactly that will happen so i wouldn't say it would never happen but if you're if you're looking uh you know raise

your potential for weight lifting down the road how about this coach don't assume it'll happen because it probably won't I go along with that for me actually if I increase my max strength if my back squat or my deadlift goes up my cleans and my snatches go up too my technique hasn't changed in almost a decade

so your technique is sound if I just get stronger it all goes up getting stronger in squats is a different thing if you're a fantastic weightlifter decade so say your technique is sound yeah i'm snatching if i just get stronger it all goes up that's different getting getting stronger in squats is is a different if you're a fantastic weightlifter and you get stronger your lifts will go up yeah if you're not a fantastic weightlifter and you get stronger your lifts will just still be that's interesting well i won't go too far in that but that's interesting thing is the squat is just fundamental inherent extending of your

body what you're going to do under all circumstances. The deadlift is mechanically not like a clean or a snatch. So getting really good at the squat is just a different thing. The squat is tied into everything. It's very zen. You cannot separate the squat from other things you want to get good at. Yeah, and that's why you can go

a period of time without deadlifting and probably squat and not hurt your fitness. If we're talking about limitations of these strength exercises, the deadlift is good in that you just pick the ball off the ground. And the squat is tough because, well, are you going to hit a certain depth? Where do you put the bar? What kind of bar do you use?

Do you use wraps or a belt or not? So it's hard to make it a relative comparison. You got to do it the same way if you want to know if you are getting stronger. But the flip side is the inherent physiological stimulus of the squat makes you better is across the board. That's why everybody, football players,

weightlifters, powerlifters, should be doing this a lot of squatting. But yeah, the deadlift is a squarely different animal. Let's talk about something a little more tangible for a minute. That does my brain storm a moment.

Kind of philosophical there, like a bunch of nonsensical meaning to a lot of people. Kind of philosophical there, like a bunch of nonsensical meaningless to a lot of people. One more thing before we- I love being nonsensical. Before we get, one more thing before we get back on track, and that is,

with the weightlifting programming I do, our weightlifters, I won't say they never, ever, ever, but, you know, 99% of the time, they're not gonna pull a deadlift. They'll do a clean deadlift, snatch deadlift, you know, some variation of a snatch or clean.

Even if it is over 100%, we're working with percentages. Sometimes I say, hey, just go heavy. We're not working off percentages of your clean. I just want to make sure there's no technique breakdown. So I'm just going to say that, and now we can move on. Okay. It's a good point. It's a good point to make, Mike.

You didn't go off the tangent. Yeah. All right. So volume wise, how much volume should you be doing of a regular deadlift? And it's going to vary depending on your training age. So if you're a beginner versus an advanced athlete, like if you deadlift 350 versus you deadlift 750, like how much volume can you be doing on a deadlift? I'm going to, I'm going to pose that to you,

Mr. Moore. Well, I think the thing that separates a beginner from an advanced athlete in my mind always is that when you're beginning, you're so under your potential that you can't really make yourself to beat up. So if you deadlift 300 pounds, it's a great start.

You're not weak. You just, you just where you are. But if you could say if within you, there's a potential to deadlift 500're not weak. You're just where you are. But if you could say, if within you there's a potential to deadlift 500 and now you can only do 300, you can do more work now because you're not in a position where you can make yourself very tired.

You're not strong enough to hurt yourself yet. So I think you can do nice, progressive weekly doses of like three sets of five or five sets of five in the deadlift once a week, I think you'd be fine. But quickly, as you start getting to where your real potential is, as you get to 400, and as you get near five, the deadlift becomes a, I think, I always think of the deadlift like my checking account or like a credit card, where if I do it heavy, I got to pay back the recovery debt before I do it again.

And that means any form of it. Because if I deadlift now, like my best level is not astronomically good compared to the weightovers, but it's near my physiological peak. So I do it heavy for like one set of three heavy like once a month instead of doing it weekly. So I think if you've been crossfitting heavy and your deadlift is moving slow and steady, you're probably in the realm of one good set of five heavy in a deadlift maybe once a week might be all you could possibly need for a regular deadlift. That's sort of my highest level thought about what it is. So if you're brand new, once or twice a week is fine.

But if you are more advanced, maybe every two weeks, maybe every three weeks, you're going to have to do it much, much less. Very quickly, it could be like once a month, one heavy set of five could be all you really need for i think i think too they're like and this is just a theory of mine since i'm i don't really train power lifters i'm training weightlifters so i'm not exactly asking them to pull real heavy real frequently but well i'm thinking about just strength in general as well i'm not thinking about right so i that's why i'm saying this is more of a theory for me. I haven't seen this in practice a whole lot. But I've talked to some powerlifters who, you know, they're better deadlifters than they are squatters.

So they're built to deadlift, right? And it sounds like- Those are the same guys who are like, the meat doesn't start until the bar hits the floor. That's because you're good at deadlifting, asshole. If you had a long back, you would say, oh, the squat's where it's at. Right. That's exactly right. That's what everybody does.

But the guy that struggles with the deadlift, do you think that he can maybe almost deadlift like other people squat and the volume can change based on leverages? I think if you're naturally good at the deadlift, you can definitely get away with doing it more because you've probably got longer arms and your back is not as compromised. You don't get as beat up by it. You're just more suited to it. You can do it more often.

There's no way to know how often is too often for you but if you can do it weekly and you don't and you're making progress it's not it's not too often for you yeah as a general rule the movements that fit your body type in my opinion you can do more frequently without getting beat up yeah so for me it's like i could do heavy good mornings a lot like that doesn't hurt me at all i can do from i'll go ahead go into my main point about the deadlift. What I always think about the deadlift, because I'm a guy who can't do the deadlift often, not standard heavy for sets of five. Every time I've ever tried to do that over the course of a 20-year career, I guess since my football injury, 15 good years,

where the only thing that's ever worked for me is keeping balance in mind. So in my approach, I work off basically like a three to four week block. That's I'm thinking in terms of tiny little packages of like four weeks. And I'm always thinking about like this week I did a deficit deadlift. We talked about that earlier. It's a lift that makes it really hard at the bottom. I got to fight to arch. I got to fight to get in the position.

I'm using less weight, which is a good thing, but it makes me better at moving the ground bar off the ground to the middle. So the way I do balance is I wouldn't do that again next week, not even for speed. Cause it's, I fatigued myself.

I made it hard in that position. So I've got that debt in mind the next week I'll do speed pulls again, but I will do it the flip side. I'll work a rack position. I'll move the bar up to just under my knee, which for me is not really that strong either, but then I'll work that. And then on a lot wider scale, I'll pull back. I'll go, okay, the next time I do deficit deadlifts, I'll do them heavy. And then the next time I do rack pulls, I'll do them heavy. So I'm alternating between low and high and I'm alternating between heavy and light. So I don't overdo any one thing

over the course of that month. That's the kind of way I approach it, being a guy who's got a long back with a history of lower back trouble, that I know I can't deadlift a lot. So if I do those things for the deadlift, and I do a lot of squatting, I've got a very potent formula

for making sure I, my deadlift ability is where it needs to be. What do you think about people who are also throwing deadlifting in their Metcons? So they're doing a lot of Metconning, and they may have, say, their one-rep max on a deadlift may be 400 pounds, but now they're doing a conditioning session

where they're deadlifting 275 for a total of 40 reps. I think the biggest easy mistake to make for CrossFitters, especially when they start thinking about, I've got to get stronger, which they should be thinking about that. We all agree on that. But they tend to think, okay, what can I do for strength work? I'll do 5-3-1. I'll do this.

I'll do that. I'll do some west side stuff. All fine. But the real risk is that you have this plan for strength, and then whoever's doing your WIDE programming, your conditioning program, is not thinking about what you're doing plan for strength and then whoever's doing your WOD programming with your conditioning program is not thinking about what you're doing for your strength work.

So it might be those times somebody's like, here's your deadlift day. Oh, and here's, we're going to do a deadlift WOD where we do this slow, 315 for three sets of 10. That's obviously a bad combo

because this is too much of one thing in one WOD or the risk is you do today. Somebody goes, oh, we got a WOD on the board. It's sumo deadlift high pulls, or it's deficit deadlifts, or it's just regular deadlifts for three sets of ten, or five sets of whatever. AMRAP, whatever the fuck you want to dream up in your mind.

But then it's like, well, my strength work that's independent, programs later in the week a heavy deadlift. I think all those things are mistakes. If you do a WOD with a deadlift, then I think it needs to be next week at the earliest before you do any other kind of deadlift, period. Unless it's a light RDL

or it's a clean deadlift at a very light percentage. You got to remember that because you did a lot of weights in something does not mean that was quote unquote light. That's the biggest mistake people make. You did a huge amount of work in that. You can't do it heavy the same week. You're going to run into trouble really quick.

That would be my red flag I'm waving in front. Don't do that shit. One of the things I do is I stop for CrossFitters, and this may be, some coaches might think this is weird, but I stop programming RDLs and the weightlifting side of the CrossFit portion because when I watch people doing deadlifts in a Metcon,

it almost always turns into an RDL. Right? Seriously. So you don't need to train that anymore? I was like, I didn't do very many RDLs when I was weightlifting. I started CrossFitting, and I was doing a lot of deadlifts.

It's like, well, you're basically asking these people to do speed RDLs. It's a lazier position to be in, right? It's easier to... Well, I wouldn't say it's not better or more efficient or anything like that. It's a lazier position to be in, right? It's easier to... Well, I wouldn't say it's not better or more efficient or anything like that. It's just where people go. So it's like,

one day I was looking across the gym and I was like... You preserved those quads when you were starting to smoke. Everyone's doing speed RDLs. Wow, cool. If I don't need to program these extra... So they're supposed to be doing

good quality deadlifts, but they're into Metcon, they're trying to be doing good quality deadlifts but they're in a matcon they're trying to go fast and what they end up doing just to elaborate on what mike saying is they end up doing a romanian deadlift where you keep your knees basically more or less locked out and then you're just hinging in the hip bouncing the weight off the floor so i'm watching this and i could either a bad technique go and try and fix everybody in the world or b just go just know that it's going to be an RDL for most people and I'm not talking about in my gym like if I if I'm programming for someone who's not even in the facility so I don't have eyes on them all the time I don't I don't assume that they're doing RDLs all the time but I do keep that in mind that that's that could potentially

more than likely that's really happening yes that's something that kind of like, a light bulb that went off in my head at one point. Do a proper deadlift that you want to do a proper deadlift in your WOD. There's nothing wrong. Like they did in the CrossFit Games. They had that heavy deadlift WOD at the end that was pretty gnarly. And might I add, you're not going to, watching the CrossFit Games, these guys aren't doing the RDL.

No, they're doing good deadlifts. They're doing good deadlifts. Good heavy deadlifts. And you can do it. It's fine. Just balance it out. So don't try to then program strength deadlifts. They're doing good deadlifts. Good heavy deadlifts. And you can do it. It's fine. Just balance it out. So don't try to then program strength deadlifts in that week or even the week after that. Do that heavy thing on your wad once a month.

Give yourself some time to recover. You'll know. You might be able to tell the next time you do an Olympic pull. If you feel a little beat up and slow on your Olympic style pulls, then you know that your back paid a little price for that. You're going to feel not so fresh. When you do feel fresh on an Olympic style pull, then you go, maybe I can do a deadlift if that's important to me.

On the other side, you can do them all the time if you keep your deadlift style WOD like an assistance exercise. If you're doing things like RDLs, you can do that. It's fine. It's lighter weight. You won't get so tired. You can do kettlebell swings. There's other things that work better for WODs sometimes. That kind of shit. That's what kettlebells are for not for replacing barbells but for

supplementing everything else right i completely agree for general fitness clients if you're just a the average crossfitter you're not trying to go to regionals you're not trying to go to the games you probably don't need to deadlift in your met cons very often once in a while might be okay but for the most part do deadlifts in the strength session, do kettlebell swings and other more conservative things in your Metcon. You'll still get in shape. You'll still get stronger. You'll still make great changes in your body composition. You'll lose fat. You'll gain muscle.

The whole deal. But it's just not something that you need to do to make those changes. You don't need to deadlift in your Metcon. Non-overlapping magisteria for the Stephen Jay Gould fans, which I'm sure there'll be none listening to this. I'm not one of them.

Since I don't know what you're talking about, I'm going to assume there's not many. These two things are awesome on their own. You don't have to overlap and mix them. They can stand side by side and work great. It doesn't mean it's bad if you do. It's just, for some people. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should do it. there's some cases where it's okay in some cases where it probably should never be done but in general if you're competing and you have to do that in competition

you need to get used to it at some point you need to work on your touch and go deadlifts as an example but for the most part you're setting yourself up for the potential of an injury if you are brand new and you're trying to metcon with deadlifts it doesn't always happen but it happens all the time yeah last thing is what if you what if you can't hold on to the bar a lot of people have trouble holding on to to a heavy deadlift like what kind of options you have for for either changing the bar type or using straps or alternating your grip like what what do you usually do when you're doing heavy deads yeah i think if you don't want to i guess use straps all the time you're heavy down because you do need to train your hands at some point and you could also use i mean you can use you can do

deadlifts with a hook grip which hurts but i do that occasionally it hurt it helps the grip issue uh commonly what people will do is just turn one hand over one hand under which is a classic deadlift grip even sometimes with that approach your grip can fail i'd say probably for most crossfitters that fit that grip probably won't fail because you're not likely going to outpull your hand stay i think most fit uh strong crossfitters or people who are just emerging and getting better at it you're not deadlifting so much where your hand can't hold on to it i know a lot of powerlifters who can't hold on like it. I know a lot of powerlifters who can't hold on like 850 pound deadlifts

but that's another thing. And that's when you need to think about doing specific hand exercises that can help you keep your grip closed. I'd say for most people turning that one hand over I wouldn't anticipate many grip problems with the pull. Just one thing on that is make sure that you alternate a little bit. You don't want to develop some

asymmetries. That's why unless I'm going unless i'm going sometimes do it like this and then sometimes switch yeah and do it like that yeah like i uh you know left hand up right hand down and then go back you know and then and switch it up what i do is i switch it up a lot when i'm warming up and then when i'm in the heat of the moment i usually go with what's most comfortable for me which is like right hand over right right hand up, left hand under. After my decade of really intense powerlifting training, I couldn't. Like right now, I can't take my right arm, which is the hand I grab over with a regular grip on the deadlift. I can't turn that under and hold the deadlift.

So that's the kind of stuff you will get if you don't keep balance. What I usually do is on all my warmups, I just grab the bar. No hookup or anything. I just grab and hold. I can do that up to 400 or 500 pounds if I needed to. Once I get a little heavy, I use a hook grip because I only have a few sets to do that because my thumb's on a, especially with a really sharp, pointy,

jagged, knurled deadlift bar. A hook grip for one or two heavy sets would probably be all you can do before your thumb's turning a hamburger. And then what I do for the heaviest sets I just I have I've walked away

I'm like 450 that way I'm like nothing in my body hurts but my thumbs the last three sets I just turn my left hand under and I just do

the heaviest sets with the alternating grip that way I keep a nice bounce I work my grip a little bit I work my hook grip a little bit practice that and then without

destroying my fingers I just turn to regular grip. Right. Yeah. Most people probably don't need to do it. I remember trying that like one time and putting bands on a heavy deadlift. It was like 400 pounds plus some band tension. I did a hook grip.

Well, it hurts. And I was like, well, I'm never doing that again. It was a bad decision. That's why I pulled those speed pulls at Louie's place. Yeah. With a band. I had the hook grip in the last one with like 400 plus those double light bands, whatever you had. That was enough to work.

I'm done with that. Yeah. Yeah. But you probably don't need to worry about like captains of crush hand grip exercises for most crossfitters and most people who want to get better at deadlifts. It's probably not something you need to worry about right now. If you're Ed Cohen and you're pulling 950 pounds at 220 pounds body weight, your hands could be a limitation. That's sort of a rare scenario. Yeah.

I kind of advise the weightlifters if their hands are starting to get beat up too much. It's like, you know what? Just use straps when you do your pulls. Don't go the whole day using straps. Just throw them in on some pulls and stuff like that. That way, if you're pulling a bar from the floor 60 times today, if 20 of those times are with the straps because you're doing repetitive pulls for reps, then it's good there just to save your hands so you can train tomorrow.

That's a good point, man. Use these tools to help you train more often. It's not like you always deal with straps and you can't do it without it. It's a crutch for you. It makes you feel warm and cozy. You don't want to take them off because then it's hard to hold on the bar that's bad what's good is that i've snatched 18 times this week and if i grab the bar all these straps my hands are gonna rot off that's a good time to use straps it's common sense shit man there's no there's no theory involved like straps aren't good or bad it's like when's the appropriate time to use them yeah same with the belt same with knee wraps when's the appropriate

time to use this shit? If you're wondering which straps you should be using, I personally, if you're a weightlifter, the Iron Mine straps that are sewn together, they're nice. What's good about those is they're nice and thin. The weightlifting style. The loop style. Weightlifting style, right? Not the kind that slides up and down with a little strap.

Yeah, it doesn't slide through the other piece. But it's actually, the two ends are actually, they make, you can get them on Amazon. They're sewn together on amazon they're sewn together and they're really thin too so some of these straps are so thick that like you know it's just not going to work for weight lifting like the old bodybuilding style that basically like uh like 18 layers of denim sewn into each other like you could hold on to a fucking plane trying to take off with it if you could like i know some some guys like some iron mind makes something that like for a strongman

who's pulling like a tire pull like 1200 pounds it's made for that like just don't you don't have to worry about all that stuff you don't need

that crazy thing if it's got flames on it don't buy it I know I put a shoe some people put a shoe you can just use like old like belt

seat belts or anything that's strong you can just cut a piece and just wrap it around and just hold it like most wailers do. I use the kind of like the leather ones that that Italian company makes.

Who makes the handmade shoes, wailers and shoes? What's that company? Do you know? Somebody knows out there. Text one of us if you know. This is my strength coach from growing up. Mark, you're on the show. Say hi to everybody. Hi everybody. You're holding the earpiece.

Wrong way, Doug. Oh, wait. Is that right? Anyway. I'll call you later. Maybe he's your speaker. All right. Yeah, I think it's about time to wrap up the show.

Let's leave it open-ended. We actually do have to go. Yeah, we have to go. But everybody, if you have a question about that, send them in. Put them on the Facebook page. Tweet at us. We can have a little afterwards thing where we kind of check it out and throw some ideas back at you we probably didn't touch everything about that

loves this show and if you disagree with us just troll chris moore troll me go on here's what you'll do you'll go on youtube page go who is this guy with the batman shirt he won't shut up on his own show he keeps wanting to say his opinions look i'm sorry man but i'm just a human being here on this show to help you, brother. If you don't like one point I make, it's okay, man. Just ignore me and I'll say something good next time. Just work with me, homie. The world is beautiful.

Grass is green. The sun is shining. We all love each other here, man. Let's just lift weights and smile. In your friendly neighborhood, Barbel Buddha. All right, guys. See you next time. See you, guys.