Barbell Shrugged - Attitude Is Everything: Learning From Pro Bodybuilder and Marathon Runner Kristin Rowell — Muscle Maven Radio Episode #27

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey everybody, welcome back to Muscle Maven Radio on the Shrug Collective Network. I'm your host, Ashley Van Houten, aka, of course, the Muscle Maven. Who else would it be? Very excited about my guest and my conversation today. As always, it is the second time since I launched Muscle Maven Radio that I get to basically just have a girl bro chat about muscles and bodybuilding and training. I did this once before with a friend of mine named Coco, and we talked about bodybuilding and drugs and girl stuff and what happens when a picture of you looking really buff goes crazy viral on social media

Starting point is 00:00:39 in a good and bad way. That episode was pretty epic, episode four. So you can go back and listen to that one if you want. But my guest today, her name is Kristen Rowell. She just launched her own company and brand around coaching and public speaking. But she was a lawyer before that for, I think, some 20 years. She crushed a very high stakes job while also running marathons quite quickly, I might add, much more quickly than I ever ran any. And then she decided after the age of 40 to add in bodybuilding, which she also excelled in and then became a pro. And she was basically doing all of this at the same time. So she is incredibly intelligent and driven and fun to talk to. And I had a fantastic time picking

Starting point is 00:01:21 her brain, trying to figure out how she has the energy and the drive and the desire to do all of these things. But we talk about the downside actually sometimes of being so driven when you don't know how to create balance or put enough emphasis on recovery or just know when to slow down and pick your battles because that's the downside to being that hard charging, right? So we talk about that. We talk about the myth that you can't train for endurance and strength sports at the same time. We talk about drug use with female bodybuilders. That's always a fun one. We talk about the difference between having drive and having compulsions towards certain goals and how sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. And we also, of course, talk about things like the way she eats and trains and meditates and

Starting point is 00:02:03 just looks at life. And she's just such a positive, helpful, thoughtful person. I think everyone will gain a lot of insight from this chat. You know by now I love talking about meathead stuff and working out and bodybuilding and eating and muscles and learning with other women who are as into it as I am. So I really hope you enjoy the episode. And if you do, please share it on social media. And by that, I mean, Instagram spread the love tag shrug collective tag me at the muscle Maven and tag Kristen at M N golden girl. So that we're all aware of how much you loved the chat. Ask us questions. If you want, ask her a question, ask me a question. Tell me what you want to hear in an upcoming episode. Say hi, whatever. I welcome all of that. And before I get into it, shout out to my two lovely sponsors, ButcherBox and Beekeepers Naturals. They're just keeping me afloat,

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Starting point is 00:04:57 and use the code muscle maven at checkout. Get yourself a discount. Get yourself some of this awesome stuff. I love those guys so much. Thank you for supporting me. And now on to the interview with the amazing, energetically efficient Kristen Rowell. All right, Kristen, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. Me too. I am so pumped always to chat with fellow lady bodybuilders. It just like makes the meathead and me very excited. So I'm really, I'm really excited to spend an hour just kind of like, uh, grilling you with lots of bodybuilding questions. I hope you're ready for it. Yes, I'm ready. And I love it. Same. It's so funny because I feel like there are so many,

Starting point is 00:05:40 um, podcasts where I hear men talk about bodybuilding all the time. So it's really fun to be able to share this with a female and I'm like pumped about that. That's it. That's like, that's literally the reason why I exist on the internet is to have kind of like meathead conversations, but it doesn't even have to be specifically about women. It's just women are included, you know, and it's not, this isn't like a malicious thing, but this is something that I hear often, like, you know, women who are listening to podcasts and fitness podcasts, and they're interested in this stuff. And they're like, I listen to these podcasts, and they're great. But it's like, I never hear a woman talk, I never hear like a woman ask the questions. They're never like talking about studies that

Starting point is 00:06:21 maybe involve women. And as we know, probably with bodybuilding more than almost any other sport, gender makes a difference because how our bodies react to, like, say, contest prep, for example, is very different between a man and a woman, right? So, like, there needs to be some more ladies on the internet talking about this stuff. Yeah, I totally agree. And it's so interesting that you say that because the difference between men and women when it comes to prep, I wanted to believe so strongly that there wasn't any and that I could prep just like any other guy could prep. And I realize now that all of the hormonal stuff that I've gotten my arms around and that I now understand is my superpower. So I'm actually grateful for it, even though it was sort of tough to navigate in the beginning. And I thought, well, why is the cutting throwing my hormones askew? And why do I need to carb cycle? But all of it I have learned through the process of getting ready for a bunch of different shows and then ultimately becoming pro. It's a blessing to be able to have the advantage, I'd say, of being a bodybuilder and being a woman.

Starting point is 00:07:29 Yeah, I like it. I like that approach because I have felt like you many times too, where I'm like, why does it always have to be so much more complicated for us? Like even, you know, I interview people on the podcast that are like functional medicine doctors and hormone experts. And I'm like, why is it, and this is just the petty in me, but I can't help it. I'm like, why is it that estrogen makes you bloated and emotional and sad and testosterone makes you buff and like horny? It doesn't seem fair, right? But as we know, they're all important and we all have all of them and they're all very crucial to our health. So, but it just, sometimes I'm like, why, why us? Yeah. And you know, the thing that I've been doing now, I'm in the nutritional therapy practitioner program to the Nutritional Therapy Association, which is a fantastic program. So I'm learning about

Starting point is 00:08:09 all this hormone regulation and it really is fascinating all the different rabbit holes that you can go down in terms of even how our stress hormones affect all that stuff too. So it's really been an interesting journey and I understand a lot more about my body than I used to. Cool. Yeah. I used to. Cool. Yeah, I want to get into all of that. But first, I guess maybe we should back it up and tell listeners not only who you are, but how we came to be having this conversation. So I met you about a month ago maybe now in Austin because we were both there for KetoCon, the KetoCon event, and you were speaking. And I had my friend,

Starting point is 00:08:51 Ben Pakulski, no big deal. Everybody knows who Big B-Pack is. He was at the event as well. And he was like, you should definitely meet Kristen. You guys would get along. You should definitely do that. And we sat and listened to your panel that you were on. And I was like, okay, she's got a story that needs to be on this podcast. So let's do this. And here we are. So I'd love if you could just kind of introduce yourselves a little bit to our listeners and kind of just tell your story. I'll interrupt, hopefully not too much, but I'll kind of go in with the questions as per the intro. So you tell us a little bit about yourself first. Perfect. I'd be happy to. Okay. So again, my name is Kristen Rowell, and I, up until approximately two months ago, had been a trial lawyer for 17 years, which means I was in court often and practicing in the area of business litigation. So I essentially was helping people resolve business disputes through the judicial system. On the side, throughout my entire law practice, I was really into fitness in a variety of ways. Largely, for the most of my practice was through marathon running. So I've been a big marathon runner. I ran my first marathon, my first semester of law school as a way to relieve stress because I figured that

Starting point is 00:10:06 otherwise it would completely, law school would suck my life. So I thought I would do one and then I would check it off the bucket list. And 24 marathons later, I still love it. I have had the itch for it each year. There've been a couple of years where I haven't done some, some years I've done four marathons, but I've just really enjoyed it. You're a little type A, aren't you, Kristen? Just a little, just a little. And so it's so funny you say that because you know how sometimes type A people sort of ignore the signs from the universe telling us to slow down once in a while. My biggest sign came in December of 2013. I was on a trip for work in sexy Williston, North Dakota. You might've heard of it, height of the Bakken and the oil boom area. So I did a lot of real

Starting point is 00:10:54 estate litigation. So in any event, it was like 25 below there. It was December. And I fell in front of the airport in Williston, slipped on ice and broke my right leg in 10 places. So I had been a weightlifter and a marathon runner for basically my whole adult life. And I remember thinking at the time, how in the world could someone in my level of fitness that's this strong, break her legs so hard. And two benefits came out of it for me. One was I started to spend a lot of time researching nutrient density, supplementation, things that I was doing, good inputs I was putting in my body that maybe my body really hadn't been digesting well because I just wasn't feeding my body in the right way. And then two, because I couldn't run for several months, but I was right back in

Starting point is 00:11:42 the gym weightlifting because heaven forbid I would miss a week of a workout. I got even more muscular and that's kind of what led to my bodybuilding career. So it was within just a few years of that injury that I started training and cutting and going the bodybuilding route on top of the marathoning. And so I believe that that accident and the universe trying to slow me down sort of happened so that I'd figure out this bodybuilding thing too. So I did my first bodybuilding show in April of 2017. It was a show in Minneapolis through NPC. I did an NPC show and I did really well at that show. And I keep laughing and saying, well, guys, it's just because I was novice and old. So I got three or four first place trophies in different classes, a second place and a fourth place overall. And I thought, well, I could be really good at this. So then I did a couple more

Starting point is 00:12:35 shows the following year, another one in the MPC, missed my pro card by a fraction. So then I signed up and did a natural show about a month later and got my pro card in the natural division. So I'm an IPE pro in figure through the international pro elite. Okay. All right. So I already have tons of questions. I don't even know where to start, but first, I guess one of the ones that I think is really interesting is you run a lot of marathons and you're into lifting weights and bodybuilding. And that's a very unique combination. And I, on a much lesser scale, have also done both of those things, but not at the same time. And the marathon thing was totally like a check the box kind of

Starting point is 00:13:18 situation for me. And I did it twice. And I think it's kind of like when women describe having a kid where they forget the pain, so they do it again. And that's why I did a second marathon. And then the second marathon, I was like, you know what, I'm actually done. I've done this. It's fine. But the combination of endurance running and weightlifting to many people seems completely sort of, they seem like completely discreet kind of sports and even sports that would, the training for one would really negatively affect the other. So can you talk a little bit about how you are able to kind of train and compete in both? I can, and I get asked this question a lot, Ashley. So it's a really good one because I don't know where, I really don't know where this whole thing started, but it is very much widely believed

Starting point is 00:14:05 that you sort of have to pick one master and that you can't be really strong and be into lifting weights and also be really good at endurance running. And for me, I've just found that to not be true. So I don't know if people don't try to do both because they hear that you can't. And so they just don't try it. But for me, the weightlifting has actually always made my running better. So one of the things I hear from people every time they hear I've done 24 marathons is, you know, people say, Oh, Scott, how are your knees? How are your joints? How is everything? And I said, great, actually. And it's because I do lift weights. So I have very strong muscles that protect my knees. And I think it's always made me faster and more efficient. In fact, on the weekend runs where you

Starting point is 00:14:54 know, you get up and you do your 20 miles three weeks before the marathon, I immediately go in for a very hard strength training session after that, because it actually helps you recover from the run. So where I weightlift is, and this is probably the other thing about it to answer your question more directly. I think it's a lot behind the intention of your exercise. So when I don't, I don't strength train lift weights to get buff by doing it seven days a week. I intend to get as strong as possible to create as much lean muscle mass on my body as possible in the least amount of time. So because I had been a trial lawyer for 17 years, kind of circling back to what I was doing for living, I had to get really efficient about my time. That was a very busy practice. And I didn't

Starting point is 00:15:45 have time once I graduated law school to be at the gym lifting seven days a week. So when I lift, I lift a complete body workout, a strength training workout to total failure in 30 minutes. And most people don't believe me when I tell them that, but it's true. And so I, when I go to the gym and I see people lifting weights, I frankly see people wasting a lot of time. And it's something that I feel like we all want more of. Everyone's trying to figure out how they can do more with less. So I tell everyone, look, when you're doing a bicep curl and you get to the point that you can't lift it anymore, guess what? You actually can lower it. So either have someone spotting you or helping you to be able to do the lifting of the weight and then count down for 10 because

Starting point is 00:16:33 our lowering, and I always get them messed up. Actually, you may know concentric versus eccentric. One is up and one is down. But on the lowering, we're all stronger. So you get done with your bicep curls. You can still do some negatives. And then on top of that, get down on the lowering, we're all stronger. So you get done with your bicep curls. You can still do some negatives. And then on top of that, get down on the ground and then do negative only pushups until you are absolutely unable to hold your body up any longer and you fall on the floor. Yeah. So I do a lot of pre-exhaust stuff and things that really destroy me, but because I'm only doing that twice per week, I have other days then that I can recover and other days that I can run,

Starting point is 00:17:08 which I think is also what allows me to be able to do both, if that makes sense. It does make sense. I wonder, and this is just kind of speaking out loud here, because I do, and I totally get what you're saying about having a basis of strength and that muscle to support you making running easier, totally. And I also feel like it's one of those things where to a certain extent, in a healthy way, the lighter you are too, right? Because I'll do, I'll go for jogs and hikes and stuff like that during prep. And like when I hit sort of a, when I take that 10 sort of extra pounds off, I'm like, oh, this feels a lot better. Like it makes a big difference. Weighted workouts. But I wonder speaking to your very efficient and very intense workouts, which I appreciate and I like that. And I like that more people are talking about how you can do more with less and how you do not need to be in the gym for two hours, seven days a week to build muscle.

Starting point is 00:17:55 In fact, that could be hindering you. workout that you're doing is something that not everyone can do in that you need either a certain amount of like, um, uh, training age or muscle maturity to achieve that. Because if you're say a more of a novice lifter, right. And you, it takes a while, it takes like years in the gym, really sometimes for people to know what that intensity and what that to failure thing means and what it feels like, right? And if you're talking about somebody who maybe does not have a background in weightlifting or hasn't been crushing bicep curls since they were 15 like we have, it's hard for them to do that. It's hard for them to understand it. And then it's also, I would imagine, much harder for them to recover even. So do you have

Starting point is 00:18:45 any recommendations for how somebody who is more of a novice, like bodybuilder or weightlifter, who wants to be more efficient and wants to focus more on intensity and proper movement and all of that stuff, but maybe doesn't, again, just doesn't kind of have the maturity in the gym to really be able to walk that line? How do people approach it? Yeah, absolutely. So like you and I have talked about before, we've been lifting since we were young. So I started going to the gym in high school or middle school, rather. I was 14 years old just because I was curious about it. And then I noticed just physically I was able to gain muscle pretty quickly. And like anyone, you know, all of us like to do what we are good at. So I found that I got good at it. So I really enjoyed

Starting point is 00:19:29 it. So I feel pretty strongly, especially if you're going to be doing heavy, heavy lifting, that it's really important to have someone training you. And I say that because I can hear a little bit of my background, by the way, Ash. Okay. I'll mute myself. Thank you. So I say that because when you really are learning and you also want to push yourself, I have trainers train me and I really know what I'm doing in the gym, but I always have a trainer who's training me. And I do that because they are able to push me. And I also go to people who are educated about strength training and about what muscles can go in what order to get the maximum benefit of your workout. So let me also address it this way. So if your goal, if your intention is to build muscle, become stronger, feel more comfortable in the gym, and really start to navigate this world so that you can do that more quickly, and it doesn't take you five years to figure out what you're doing, for example, I think there's no better way to do that than to hire a trainer. Now, I will say that I also know, depending on what gym you go to and what region you live in, I know that some

Starting point is 00:20:51 places have a lot more options for trainers available than others. So what I recommend people do is find someone who will really listen to them and say, look, I'm really interested in being pushed. I want to be here for a short amount of time and I want to get maximum benefit from my workout. So I really want you to push me to the point that I'm experiencing what I understand scientifically is called momentary muscle failure. So there are a number of books out there that speak to this concept and we can talk about a few of those. I can give your listeners some recommendations when it comes to that, especially for specifically the female body. There are some really interesting ones. But I really think focusing on what is my intention when I'm going to the gym and how can I fulfill that intention the most quickly. And I

Starting point is 00:21:44 really think it's working with a trainer or at least someone who's also interested in it, who can help spot you. Okay, I like that. That makes sense. All right, I'd like to go back to the epic broken leg, and some of the things that you discovered about yourself, both sort of health and nutrition wise, but I would imagine also mentally, because for somebody who is doing the kind of high intensity work and exercise that you were doing to have a really epic injury that would definitely kind of stop you in your tracks for a while. How did that affect you mentally? How did you approach your recovery? Talk about that a bit. Sure. So I was, after this accident happened and I woke up in the hospital and the drugs were off,

Starting point is 00:22:28 I was pretty terrified about what this was going to do to my mental health. I have been lucky that I haven't experienced any mental health issues in my past. And I also knew that, but I've worked out my whole life. So I thought, what's going to happen to me now that I'm not getting that daily serotonin release, now that I'm not out sweating all the time, how is this going to affect me? And so I spent a couple of days thinking about how I could put together a plan for myself so that I could recover from this injury faster and better than ever. I really wanted to use this experience to learn about my body and to figure out how to become even healthier than I had been before. So one of the things that I got real

Starting point is 00:23:11 honest with myself real quick was, look, your lower right leg is broken. Your left leg isn't broken. Your arms aren't broken. Your back isn't broken. You have abs. And I ended up with crutches going back to the gym about a week and a half after I had surgery and having my trainers take me through a workout that lifted every other part of my body instead of my right leg. One of the things that I knew based on my research was our limbs have muscle memory in between them. So if you break your right arm and you continue to lift weights for your left arm, your right arm will actually atrophy less than if you had not continued to lift weights. So I would, I knew that. Yes. Which is really interesting because our limb, our human body is so amazing, but our limbs have memory between them.

Starting point is 00:24:02 So it is. And I, you know, I'm not going to lie. I, we did kind of laugh and call it my chicken calf on my right side, since it atrophied pretty bad, just because I did not put any weight on my right leg whatsoever for two months. But the doctors told me after I had my surgery that I wouldn't put any weight on my right leg for three months. And so I thought, forget that I'm going to go way faster. And so I was, did aggressive physical therapy and I lifted hard and I was able to walk on it in two months. And so I thought, forget that I'm going to go way faster. And so I did aggressive physical therapy and I lifted hard and I was able to walk on it in two months. And they said they'd never seen anything like it. So I, I did that for two reasons. One was because I was doing the research and I understood how the body mechanics work. And two, I believe that when things happen to us,

Starting point is 00:24:43 we have, everyone has two choices. You can choose to let them take you down or you can use them as an opportunity for growth and to get better. And I chose the latter. It was really important to me to continue to have the serotonin release, the adrenaline response, have all of my hormones working naturally in my body so that I could get through this injury and still be in a good mood and be happy. And so that's what I did.

Starting point is 00:25:06 And it helped me recover more quickly than if I hadn't been doing the working out. You know, a lot of people I hear say to me, oh, I remember when I used to work out and then, you know, I fell and I broke my ankle or I got this tear and whatever. And I'm not dismissing anyone's experiences. There are legitimate injuries that do set people back at times, but it's really what you do with that setback. I mean, you can choose to use it as an excuse. And let's be honest, that's what some people do. They use it as an excuse. I've had

Starting point is 00:25:35 injuries before that I've used as an excuse. I'm the first to admit it. And you can also make a different choice next time through an injury or some sort of illness or something that you're experiencing and use it as an opportunity for growth instead of to allow it to keep you down. That's so important. Everyone needs to hear it because it's easy for us to say these things when we're not in the middle of it. You know what I mean? Like everybody can say, of course, of course. Like when something bad happens, it's inevitable. Bad things are going to happen.

Starting point is 00:26:04 Here are the choices. You wallow in it and let it affect you and bring you down or you empower yourself and make better choices and use it as a learning experience. But it's a whole different thing entirely when someone is stuck in their bed for a month because they've got a broken leg or whatever. So it's something that you have to internalize that it becomes a natural reaction when the shitty stuff does inevitably happen because it does, right? It's like, you just have to, yeah, it does. I want to talk though about, Oh, sorry. It does. And Oh no, I was just going to say it does. And what I always try to remind people of, cause I feel like this is so important and this has helped me throughout my whole life. The momentum of energy that you get from actually exerting energy and just getting

Starting point is 00:26:51 out of the bed and doing something, the positive forward momentum that it gives you from everything from being in a good mood to being proud of yourself to becoming more fit so you have more energy to meeting more people who are going to to becoming more fit so you have more energy, to meeting more people who are going to hold you more accountable because you're out there in the world exercising or whatever it is you're doing. I can't say enough good things about it in terms of if you can just force yourself to do that one workout or that second workout, it will be momentum that will get you going more. Yes, it's so true. So I want to switch and talk a little bit about mental health and sort of mindset as it relates to bodybuilding, because this conversation

Starting point is 00:27:32 is very fresh, because I just had this conversation with Ben, who is arguably, I mean, he's one of the best bodybuilders in the world. And he's certainly one of the most successful bodybuilders that I get to say that I'm friends with. And we've had this discussion about the fact that this sport, it's certainly, I think anyone can admit that bodybuilding, competitive bodybuilding can attract people who have dysfunctional attitudes towards eating and body image, right? I mean, that's pretty easy to get your head around. Like it's a very extreme kind of preparation for, especially for the quote unquote, like average person looking at how people prep for competitions. And at the end of the day, the competition part itself is, is it's people judging the way you look, right? So it can certainly self-select for people who

Starting point is 00:28:21 are looking for external validation for people who want to make an excuse for their dysfunctional eating or attitudes towards food and all of these things. That's not to say that everyone who's a bodybuilder has self-esteem issues or dysfunctional attitude towards food. But it does seem like it attracts that kind of mentality a little bit more maybe than other sports necessarily. And I think two of the things that's that stick out as you were speaking, um, about your approach to bodybuilding, which seems so sort of just positive and, um, something that people would want to look up to instead of thinking like, this is creepy and scary. And it's things that, that I find modeled in my own experience too, two things. One, we started exercising and lifting weights from a young age. So we had that sort of base of kind

Starting point is 00:29:13 of confidence and body awareness, and also just straight up endorphins, right? From working out that as everyone knows is one of the best sort of depression killers in the world is exercise and movement and strength, right? And muscle building and things like that. So there's that sort of background. And then also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you kind of got into bodybuilding, maybe a little bit later, right? Like I did my first competition, I think I was 29 years old when I did my first competition. And there is a maturity that takes place between, say, the people who compete for the first time when they're 17 or 18 years old, and somebody who's closing in on 30, who's like, I kind of know what I'm

Starting point is 00:29:56 about at this point. My self-esteem is kind of set at this point. I'm not really doing this because I give a shit about what other people think. And again, that's not to say that if you're over 20, you're going to have great self-esteem, or if you're under, you don't. But I think that some of the things I'm hearing is a certain level of self-awareness and self-love that is built in before you start competing. And some of that is built on a basis of competence around the physical body and movement and exercise, right? Absolutely. I could not agree more.

Starting point is 00:30:32 It's so funny because I was sort of joking when I would tell people, literally, you guys, I won all of these trophies because I'm novice and old. But I did my first bodybuilding competition after the age of 40. And some people think, well, why did you wait to get into it until that? I bet it was 10 years plus that people had asked me all the time, whether I compete, do you compete? And I thought, no, I don't do that. I used to judge it from afar. I thought it was weird. I said, why would people do that to their bodies? They stand up in the bikini. And then I said, okay, I need to get out of my own way. And I turned 40 and I thought,

Starting point is 00:31:10 why not try it? I just was really curious about the experience. And the delightful thing about it is I found the people that I met to be kind and caring and respectful and all of these amazing humans that I was almost embarrassed. I was judging from afar. I mean, I feel ashamed about that, but I have come full circle on that and very grateful that I've become a part of this world. But I agree with you, Ashley. I think, I feel like I come back to this word all the time, but it's because it's one of my favorite words in the English language, which is intention. So it's what is your intention behind doing something like this? For me, and I talk about this a lot, there is nothing greater in this life than identifying

Starting point is 00:31:56 a goal that you want to achieve, reverse engineering all the steps you need to take to get there, taking those steps and actually achieving your goal. I think that process is so incredible. And it might be because on the Enneagram, I'm a number three, which is a cheaper, I don't know. But I just feel like the satisfaction as humans that we can derive from showing up for ourselves through the process of something that we want to work towards. And sure, is there a component about it that's on stage and you're in a bikini and yeah, it feels good to look lean and have people give you compliments. Okay. That's the ego that gets fed to some degree. But for me, it was more about, wow, if I really eat this clean and nourish my body with this good food, and I don't allow myself

Starting point is 00:32:48 to go down the rabbit hole of crazy body dysmorphia, which I was lucky I never experienced, you can do this in a healthful way. And you can do this as a way of self love to your body, where you are putting in no processed food, healthy macronutrients, you can carb cycle appropriately, you're giving your body good proteins and fats. I mean, I did this a way that was very, very healthy in terms of what I was putting in my body. I would say the only time it gets a little questionable is like the day of when I was eating some, you know, York peppermint before it went on stage. It's like, but for the most part, Oh God, those are okay. Taxicab confession, which I was saying before I'm going to reveal something.

Starting point is 00:33:40 I, it used to be a Saturday night live skip back in the day that my parents would watch when I was a little girl so I always I love it I love taxicab confession and they would like oh it's my favorite so so I after my first show so I like you I'm obsessed with peanut butter cups but for me what really will do it is those white ones the white Reese's because they're extra sweet by the way white chocolate's extra sweet so I one of my friends got me a bag of those that have six servings. There are no wrappings on any of them. And I ate the whole bag in one sitting the next day for a week. I was like, you get to, yeah, yeah, you get to. And I, of course, corrected the next day. I just let myself do that for a day.

Starting point is 00:34:24 But going back to what you said, because I resonate corrected the next day. I just let myself do that for a day. But going back to what you said, because I resonate with this so deeply, I feel like we've had very similar positive experiences with bodybuilding, which I think are equally as important to get out there as the people who had negative experiences, because it shows that this is a complicated sport for a lot of people. But it's about, as you said, it's about intention. And it's also about in life, in fitness, in life in general but it's about, as you said, it's about intention. And it's also about in life, in fitness, in life in general, it's about goal setting, but it's also about setting intelligent goals for yourself. Many people doing a bodybuilding competition would not be an intelligent goal. And so we need to do the work, the mindfulness and the introspection to figure

Starting point is 00:35:01 out like what goals would work for me. Because there are many other projects you can undertake that will teach you about your body and get you looking good and give you a lot of satisfaction. And there's a lot of things you can do that don't involve contest prep and getting on a stage in a bikini. And that could be harmful for a lot of people, but it can also be a really interesting experiment for a lot of people. And I felt the same way as you. I sought out a coach who was healthy, who looks the way I wanted to look, who had the bedside manner that I was into and who I had a good kind of rapport with. And we did it in a very, very healthy and probably to normal people may seem extreme, to bodybuilders would be like very not extreme

Starting point is 00:35:46 in a way that was just very kind of slow and gradual and progressive and healthy. And I, one of the things that I've spoken about online when it comes to bodybuilding, because I get a lot of women asking me like, I'm on the fence. I kind of think I want to compete and I don't know. And what advice do you have? And one thing that I talk about when it comes to goal setting is that I think there is a difference between determining a goal and doing everything you can to achieve it and get that sense of accomplishment that you were speaking about. And then there's being obsessive about a goal. And I think that the way you can tell the difference, because sometimes from the outside, it's hard to tell the difference if you have a bunch of non-bodybuilder friends who are like, you're crazy, even if you don't feel that way. I think the difference is that setting a goal and working towards it makes you feel like you're accomplishing something. It's progressive. It makes you feel good and

Starting point is 00:36:40 energetic and excited. And being obsessive about something makes you anxious and makes you feel bad and makes you scared and worried and uncomfortable. And for people who maybe have more sort of obsessive attitudes towards physical goals, if you can't tell the difference between those two feelings or outlooks, maybe a bodybuilding competition isn't for you because it really could be damaging. And I think that one of the ways that I always, and I didn't pursue professional, I did quite well on the natural amateur circuit and kind of was like, I don't really want to take it any further. And I'm not sure if I'm done forever or not.

Starting point is 00:37:17 That remains to be seen. But one of the ways that I really feel like I did so well was because I had this attitude, and I think you've said this too, that this process is not about that two-hour period where you're super lean and you look good in a sparkly bikini. The process is learning about yourself and learning what you're capable of and being able to pick a goal and stick to it and seeing how your body responds to different things. And it's like the journey is the exciting part. And so when I competed, I had literally zero nerves. I was like, I did the thing. Like today's just a day where I'm going to wear a sparkly bikini and take some pictures. Like this whole thing has already happened and I feel good about it. And because I think I had that attitude

Starting point is 00:37:59 and I was relaxed and positive about it, I ended up doing better. Absolutely. I completely agree with everything you just shared and the learning about your body and the benefits of going through an experience where you get so in touch with your own self, I think is fascinating. I don't think enough people do that. Think about how often in this life, all of us walk around on autopilot, sort of unconscious or not in our conscious mind. And I started meditating a couple of years ago, which I love talking about. And I could go down and I could talk about that for hours on end if you let me. But that to me, the combination of the meditating and the

Starting point is 00:38:46 really being intentional about what I'm putting in my body and why, and learning through the experience of bodybuilding, it's all related. So I agree with you. You can do this a very healthy way if your intention is just that, to have this experiment with your body, to learn about it more if you know that you are the kind of person that is not going to get triggered by addiction or issues of anorexia or any other sort of body disorder, if those are things that you've either experienced in your past or you've been curious about, then bodybuilding probably isn't for you. But if you are someone who really is interested in goal setting and figuring out how you can achieve a better version of yourself for a whole host of reasons, I think it's a great thing to

Starting point is 00:39:31 Can you talk a little bit about post-show nutrition, workouts, sort of self-care, reverse dieting, if that's a thing that you do. I think that no one talks about this enough and you do get to see a lot on social media about people who are like, I freaked out after the competition. And I ate like, you know, I had my white chocolate peanut butter cups, and then it never stopped. And I woke up a week later. And like, here I am, you know, people kind of joke about that sort of post show binge. And that's kind of part of the culture. But there really isn't a lot of support or information about even whether you're going to compete again maybe in a few months or six months or you never compete again. But how to, in a healthy way, transition back into, I don't know, a slightly higher body fat, like something that's sustainable.

Starting point is 00:40:16 Just transition into going back into a more quote-unquote normal kind of schedule and eating pattern because you aren't cutting or prepping for a competition. I mean, I know a lot of coaches that that isn't even part of their plan. Like they literally, you pay them up until the day of the show and then it's like, see you later. Like good luck with whatever comes next. And what comes next is the rest of your life. It's very important. So can you talk a little bit about how you manage that? Yeah, I'd be happy to. So I did not for my first show have any sort of a reverse dieting plan. And because I have a healthy relationship with food, other than my white Reese's peanut butter cup binge, I was fine. And I say I was fine in terms of when, so here's where I think I'm unique

Starting point is 00:41:01 in the bodybuilding world also. And I don't know if this was your experience. I have the saying that I took from Will Smith, which is if you stay ready, you don't have to get ready. So when I cut for a show, I cut for four weeks and I mean cut by, I cut out processed foods and sugars. I cut out dairy, which I really don't have any of anyways. I cut out alcohol. I cut out just some of the unconscious eating that I allowed myself to do once in a while, whether it was having a dessert treat here and there. I just cut all that stuff out. So my stage weight and my regular everyday weight are actually not that different.

Starting point is 00:41:44 The difference is how much lean mass do I put on in those last four weeks and how much body fat do I cut off in doing my prep diet. So I don't spend six months getting ready for a show and then six months having to reverse diet out of it. I actually get concerned that, and everyone can do it the way they want, but I get concerned that that sort of high and low and weight gain and weight loss may not be the healthiest for everyone. I personally would rather keep my weight pretty stable with a little variation, of course, in terms of getting ready for a show so that you do look your best on stage. But I feel pretty strongly that the roller coaster

Starting point is 00:42:26 dieting is not a healthy way to approach bodybuilding. And I think that's where some people get stuck. The other thing I'd say about it is, I really think it's important to have a lot of other interests. If this show and this competition becomes your life, you are going to get depressed when it's over. And for me, bodybuilding is just one facet of who I am. I have a lot of other stuff going on. I've got a booming career. I also like to run. I have friends and family I spend time with. I have a lot of other interests. I'm a geek about podcasts. I attend conferences all over the country because I'm interested in health. I'm in school. It's just one part of me. And so I think it's really important to not have the putting all your eggs in one basket mentality that could maybe get people to have an unhealthy relationship with that particular piece of who they are.

Starting point is 00:43:15 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And especially for the perspective too, for most of us who are doing this at an amateur level, even high level amateur, like I was competing on the national level in Canada and like in the biggest province in the country at one point, and like, it's still like, take it seriously. But again, have some perspective. Like, is this paying you necessarily? Is this your career? If you come fourth instead of second, like, are you going to die? Like have some perspective in terms of where this fits into the rest of your life, where this fits into your overall health, how much this particular moment or this three-month period where you're prepping is going to matter five years down the road. I think it's very easy to get really myopic about these things because again, yeah, like you said, if this is your world

Starting point is 00:43:59 or if any sport is your world, maybe it's endurance racing, maybe it's whatever else, when you get too involved in one thing, you start to think that that is the entire world. And then you're losing sight of the other things in your life that make your life whole, whether it's relationships, or your career, or other things that bring you pleasure, right? So I think having that, yeah, that very sort of well-rounded approach to it, I think is a really good idea. But I do kind of want to talk to you a little bit about like, you're, you're obviously a very ambitious and energetic human being, right? Like you're doing a lot of stuff. When you, and you, you said you literally just

Starting point is 00:44:37 basically retired from your career as a lawyer a couple of weeks ago and you've started a new business, right? So how is this transition working for you? Like, do you feel like, and not to say that this isn't going to be any busier or less busy than your other career. In fact, when you start your own company, it could be very well be busier. But do you feel like you are sort of chasing a little bit of that, like, dopamine rush? Like, could you take a month off and like chill at a cabin and read books? Or would you like lose your mind? Oh, it's such an interesting question, because I struggle with this all the time. I actually am from northern Minnesota, where I grew up on a lake. And so I did go there over

Starting point is 00:45:19 the 4th of July. And I had spoke when you and I met, it was that last weekend in June. So I spoke at KetoCon on June 30. And when I came when you and I met, it was that last weekend in June. So I had, I spoke at KetoCon on June 30th. And when I came back from Austin, Texas that night, my intention was, okay, you need to take a few days off because you've been working so hard to get ready for this and wrapping up your practice. And, and it's sometimes difficult for me to do, but again, coming back to what my intention is, I know that I am more recharged and happier and productive when I do give myself those days and that time for rest. So I did go home over the Fourth of July. I spent time with family for three days.

Starting point is 00:45:56 I really didn't look at my phone much at all. And my intention while I was home was to be as present as possible and be as present as possible with my family and my siblings and all the nieces and nephews that were home. And that was really fun for me. But a lot of people have said to me, okay, you wrapped up your law practice. Are you going to take a month off? I'm just not wired that way. I really like to be busy.

Starting point is 00:46:19 It's tough for me to even take a day off sometimes to just chill. And I've sort of accepted that about myself. I definitely notice when I let myself get run down, I start to get irritated with everyone because I feel like the demands of my time are too much. And when that happens, it's like, okay, you need to skip the gym today. You need to maybe sleep in. You need to maybe actually watch some documentary on Netflix and turn on your television for once this year like I need to do things like that to get me out

Starting point is 00:46:50 of work mode so that I can recharge and so that I don't become short with people because I'm the one who's allowing myself to get fried yeah and I think I think like downtime and self-care I know some people don't like that term but I think that stuff looks different to different people. Like some people do need and desire like their month off in the summer to recharge from their jobs and reconnect with their family. And then for some of us, it's a long weekend where we just, you know, go for hikes and maybe don't look at our phones as much. Like, I don't think that there's any shame in being somebody who wants to be moving and doing all the time.

Starting point is 00:47:26 I think, like you said, it's being able to sort of recognize what you do need and when, and make sure that you're doing that for yourself and for the people that are in your life. And you did mention too, that you're into meditation now, which is a personal struggle for me.

Starting point is 00:47:39 And again, Ben telling me like, start meditating, dude. I'm like, I don't want to. So tell me about your experience with it. Yeah, I'd be happy to. So I used to say, oh, yes, I'm going to start meditating. I'm going to start meditating. Okay, yeah, I'm going to meditate.

Starting point is 00:48:00 Oh, yeah, I'm going to meditate. And then I would download a meditation app. I would meditate for a couple days in a row. Then I'd forget about it. Then three weeks later, it's like, oh, shit, yes, I'm going to meditate. And then I would download a meditation app. I would meditate for a couple of days in a row. Then I'd forget about it. Then three weeks later, it's like, oh shit, yes, I got to meditate again. Then I would try to do it then. So finally someone said to me, and I heard this in a way that I had not heard it before. And I bet you're going to hear it when I say it. Meditation is like a muscle. If you don't use it, you lose it. And I thought, huh, well, I understand muscles and I would never

Starting point is 00:48:25 skip a month at the gym. And okay, that makes sense to me. So you're telling me if I do it regularly and I make it a practice, just like I do with working out, I will start to see benefits from it. And that was exactly how it was described to me. So I said, okay, fine. However, I want help getting started. So I hired a meditation coach to come to my office at the law firm. She came in and basically taught me how to meditate, which may sound silly because people think, okay, meditation, you just sit there and try not to think about anything. But there is such a significant benefit, I believe, to learning how to go through a guided meditation with someone who can help you really focus on getting in touch with your body in terms of opening up the chakras, connecting to your

Starting point is 00:49:13 higher power, really grounding down and picturing, like I can do it right now. I'm closing my eyes as I'm saying this to you, Ashley, just even standing here, picturing my root system going into the ground and growing down into the earth and picking up all the good nourishment of the earth and coming back up into my body. I mean, all of that is very real. It's energy that you envision with your mind that then creates your reality. So I don't know if you've heard anything about Dawson Church, Mind to Matter, or Joe Dispenza Becoming Supernatural. But there are a couple of really good reads that really speak to that whole principle of

Starting point is 00:49:51 your mind without question creates your reality. And so if you can focus on meditation and realize that it really is a superpower in terms of clearing your mind and allowing you to be guided by your intuition in most every decision in life. It really makes a significant difference, at least it has for me. Here's another way that someone described it that I also thought was a visual imagery that was helpful. Someone said, if you picture that your brain, your mind is like a glass jar that's half filled with sand and half water. So you shake up the jar and you see all the sand particles floating around in the water. And then you set the jar on the table. Over time, sometimes minutes, sometimes hours, eventually the sand will settle and the

Starting point is 00:50:40 top part will become clear and it's just clear water and all the sand is at the bottom. That's really what meditation does for your brain. And that metaphor for me or that imagery rather was so powerful. I thought, okay, I want my mind to be that clear. And I thought in conjunction with the ketogenic diet and getting all the gunky carbs out of my brain, all of that has just done wonders for my efficiency, productivity, and mental clarity in ways that I'm very grateful for. So first of all, I just got to say, you mentioned you were standing. You're standing for this interview, right? Okay. So am I, of course, like virtual high five right now. I'm at my standup desk. I'm like, we are such overachievers here standing for our interview. I love that. And I also love the muscle analogy too, because of

Starting point is 00:51:24 course I'm going to listen to anything that has a muscle analogy. But I think also though, like what you said there and what you said in terms of downtime, it can appeal to these type A people who think resting is for the week, I'll sleep when I'm dead, I'll meditate when I'm old, like that kind of attitude. If you approach it like this is as crucial and active an activity as working out. Like recovery, when people can internalize that recovery, days off, whatever that means to them, is fully, if actually more important than the days you spend in the gym. Like when people can really get, like have a sort of actionable kind of feeling about it. Like this isn't a passive thing. This

Starting point is 00:52:05 isn't a lazy thing. This is actually a challenging and important part of your overall health. I think when people, some people need to kind of hear it that way rather than like, Hey guys, let's like Zen out. Cause they just have a hard time getting their head around that. I know I do. Um, but yeah. Yeah. I so relate to what you're saying. And here's another way to think about it. It actually makes you more successful. So like you, I used to say, I'll sleep when I'm dead. And it was a badge of honor and a superpower for me to only get five hours of sleep a night and do all these workouts and do it. And all of that. Fine. Did I have some success in it? Yes. I started meditating in 2017. I got my pro card as a bodybuilder in 2018. I became a top 50 female lawyer as recognized by the super lawyers organization in Minnesota in 2019, this year,

Starting point is 00:52:55 when I quit my practice. So for me, taking that time and carving out of my schedule to get out of my own way so that I could really get clear and calm and make even better decisions has allowed me to become more successful, not less. So that, if your listeners hear nothing else that I say, I want them to consider that because I'm sure you have a lot of overachievers who listen to this.

Starting point is 00:53:20 You and I both fit that category. And I am telling you, if you can devote just the 10 minutes a day to doing it morning or night, I don't care. It really will make you more successful if you do it as a practice. Are you still doing guided meditation or can you kind of sit down and do it on your own now? I do both. I can do it on my own I do uh call I use the calm app in the mornings because I just like that app and there's really good messaging that comes along with it so that's a guided meditation I just use it for 10 minutes and then a lot of times in the evening I will do it on my

Starting point is 00:53:57 own and just speak through I I take myself through a guided meditation so I'll give you an example I'd be sitting on the edge of my bed and saying, okay, as I begin this guided meditation tonight, I open up my crown chakra connecting to my higher source. I can feel the light coming down into my crown. Like I say those things out loud to myself. So now I'm guiding, but I'm guiding myself and I'm really speaking out loud just in the comfort of my own home. And then I also still continue to work with my meditation coach periodically because I get such a benefit from her energy. And I feel like when I, when I work with her directly, it just, I like to do things on, um, I used to laugh and say on steroids, but now that I'm, I can't say that. I mean, yeah,

Starting point is 00:54:44 I mean it metaphorically. I've never taken steroids, but I mean it'm careful, I can't say that. I mean, yeah, I mean it metaphorically. I've never taken steroids, but I mean it like, you know, everything on overdrive is sort of what I mean to say when I say it. So, um, I, it just accelerates things. I like to do things in an accelerated fashion because I'm efficient. Yeah, I get that. It's like, you're going to do it. Let's like do it. Right. You know, let Let's go all the way. Let's do it. Yes. All right. So since you mentioned steroids, because that's also another, that's an interesting conversation

Starting point is 00:55:11 to be made in especially the female bodybuilding world and another one of my, and people can agree with this or not, but one of the comments that I've made for my own personal two cents for especially, again, amateur bodybuilding, because that's all I can speak to, is I would not recommend any of those kind of PED-like hormone suppressing or growth hormone, anything like that for women. complicated machinery. And there are so many things that can be irreversibly damaged and people can have, I don't know, reproductive challenges and physical transformations that they're not really keen on and metabolic issues when they're kind of abusing some of these drugs that seem like they're so rife in this industry. Like one of the most crazy things that I found in the bodybuilding community is how openly people talk about it. I had so many, even friends in the world, in the community that were like, hey, whenever you're

Starting point is 00:56:13 ready, let me know. I'll get it for you. You would crush it. It would be amazing how much bigger and how much easier your prep would be. You would love it. It would be so good. I'm like, are you guys kidding me? I'm not even seeking out trying to get some drugs. People are basically throwing them at me in the locker room. And you wonder why these sort of beginner, yeah, it's crazy. And beginner bikini athletes, people who don't even necessarily need to be building a crazy amount of muscle. There were times when I, it's petty of me, but I felt like two things. First, I felt like this isn't fair, right? Because I'm competing in a natural category where I know for a fact how many of these

Starting point is 00:56:52 people are taking drugs or taking whether it's or like crazy diuretics or whatever it is that people take that basically, and they basically would tell me in my face, they're like, look, it just makes, I have to work half as hard as you. Like I can do my prep and half the time I can recover way faster. I don't have to work as hard. I don't have to do any cardio. Why not? Right.

Starting point is 00:57:10 And in my head, I'm like, man, like this is unfair that, but then on the flip side, I'd be smug about it. Cause I'm like, well, guess what? Guess who just won without any drugs. And I had to work way harder than you, but it worked out okay. And I didn't even have to take any drugs. And neither of those attitudes are great because they're both kind of petty and shitty and sort of making excuses. But it's incredible to me at the lower level, because we talk about, people talk

Starting point is 00:57:36 about performance enhancing drugs and all these things for elite athletes. And I'm not here to make any personal judgments on any human being, but you can sort of almost get your head around people making unhealthy choices when it's your career or when there's millions of dollars at stake and things like that. But when you're just kind of like a recreational athlete who just wants to do a show and prove that you can do it and And you're like drug to the gills. Like, it just kind of seems like, again, it's like a perspective thing. It's like, is it, is it really worth the risk of doing these things to your body? I mean, have you, have you had that kind of experience at all in your bodybuilding training? People who are just kind of like throwing the drugs around, like it's nothing. So it's so interesting, but I haven't. And I have heard that this happens in

Starting point is 00:58:27 our industry, but it never was presented to me. It never was offered to me. And I almost feel like it was a blessing in disguise that I missed getting my pro card at my second NPC show in 2018, because I don't know if since that was a non-natural division, if it would have been more likely that that would have been presented to me after the fact or not. I don't know if since that was a non-natural division, if it would have been more likely that that would have been presented to me after the fact or not. I don't know. I mean, I can't speak to any different division and who's using drugs and who's not. All I know is that in the division that I became professional in, I have to take a polygraph test three nights before the show. And then I also have to get drug tested after I win. You have to get pulled off stage and you do a urine analysis immediately to make sure that you're clean. So I liked knowing that I was

Starting point is 00:59:09 competing with clean competitors. But one of the messages that I would give, especially to women that are listening, you know, and men is you guys, you don't need it. You can get a really good, strong, muscular, lean, fit body without any of that stuff. You know, protein and amino acids and healthy fats and all the things that our bodies were, and sleep, all the stuff that our bodies were designed to consume. And the way that we were designed to behave is you have the ability to gain muscle

Starting point is 00:59:39 and have an amazingly healthy, fit, competitive body. Yes. Just with that alone. We're proof of it. We're living proof. What about other supplements though? And this isn't a prescription for other people because everybody needs their own and needs to be aware of what their own needs are. But do you have general supplements that you take for overall health? I do. I do. So one of the things that I've been experimenting with a little bit now is I'm doing some essential amino acids. I was just going to go grab my bottle while we were talking here.

Starting point is 01:00:14 So I've got essential amino acids that have a mix of, I should say they're essential and branch chain, but I'm experimenting with those before and after workouts, especially when I want to receive some of the benefits of fasting. So I'm fasting for several hours each day if I do intermittent fasting. But to ensure that I can, on a heavy lifting day, stay in an anabolic state. Even when I'm fasting, I will do a number of amino acids, like usually in the tablet form. I have a relationship with a supplement company now through my nutritional therapy practitioner school that I just really like. And I went into their facility and saw the pharmaceutical grade level of what they put into their products, which has impressed me.

Starting point is 01:01:02 So I take those. I take a B vitamin complex. I take fish oil every day. I take a vitamin D because of course I live in Minnesota. So even though it's sunny and summer here now, we are not at the greatest latitude for getting sun. What else do I take? I've experimented a little bit with berberine because berberine has some amazing benefits in terms of maintaining regular healthy blood glucose levels. And then I also have been supplementing with some digestive enzymes. I think that those are underrated in terms of how we all produce stomach acid and whether we produce enough of it when we eat our food.

Starting point is 01:01:39 But I am largely carnivore. I eat mostly meat and some veggies thrown in there on occasion. So yeah, a little bit of probiotic too, but those are primarily the supplements I take. And then because I do a lot of fasting, I put a lot of electrolytes in my water. So my first bottle of water every morning has either Himalayan or Celtic sea salt in it with some lemon. And I do that in the morning. And then I'm always taking zinc. And I mean, a lot of these things are probably things that

Starting point is 01:02:10 non bodybuilders or non marathon runners can be benefiting from too, because we all know that most human beings that don't get to live in California, we're all, we're all deficient in vitamin D, except for the summer months. Most women are probably deficient in magnesium and zinc, all of those things. It's so funny as you're talking, I'm like, are we becoming like bodybuilding BFFs? Because there's just so many similarities in these stories. You're saying that you're mostly carnivore. This is a conversation I want to touch on briefly right now because you were at KetoCon. So you're obviously interested and into keto. And so I'd love to hear a little bit about your diet approach because there's a lot. I mean, and I talk to for the podcast, I'm talking like almost ad nauseum about keto, carnivore, all of that stuff.

Starting point is 01:02:56 I come from like a paleo, a more paleo sort of like basically unprocessed food, whole foods approach. But like I consider myself like a lot of people say like, plant based paleo, because they eat like giant salads with like some protein sprinkled in and I'm like, meat based based paleo, because I eat like a hunk of meat. And like, if I have room, I'll put a vegetable in my mouth. And that's generally what works for me. And it's always like, even before I was in this industry, even before I cared about nutrition, like I was just, I was attracted to steaks and oysters and like meat nutrition, like I was just, I was attracted to

Starting point is 01:03:25 steaks and oysters and like meat and just like a lot of meat. So I feel very deeply that like, I've done a lot of work and a lot of experimenting. And that's something that my body really likes. But I also when I'm actually prepping for like a bodybuilding competition, I'm going to go probably higher carb and lower fat than I would quote unquote normally the rest of the year, because I do find that it helps me, um, shed fat. And one of the main reasons I find for that, I mean, I keep my protein pretty steady and pretty high year round. Cause I just like that. And I work out a lot, but I personally find, and this may be contrary to a lot of people, but I have a harder time, um, keeping my overall calories in check when I'm eating higher protein versus

Starting point is 01:04:07 higher carb. For example, I will not binge on roasted sweet potatoes, but I could binge on macadamia nuts or avocado or nut butter or something like that. Right. So I actually find that I go like a little bit more traditional when I'm trying to lean out versus like my average healthy, certainly healthy and active and fit kind of yearly lifestyle. It's a lot more like carnivore higher fat, but I kind of like ease it down a little bit when I'm doing bodybuilding. So what's your approach generally? Yep. So I've done it. I've prepped a couple different ways and the most successful for me, and if you measure success in terms of gaining muscle while losing body fat, which I refuse to listen to these people that say

Starting point is 01:04:51 you can't do them at the same time, I'm proof and do it all the time. When I get ready for a show, I gain muscle and lose fat. So what I do and what's been most successful for me is three days low carb, one day high carb, three days low carb, one day high carb. So I cycle every fourth day, I put in a higher carb day. And when I say high carb, I mean only 150 carbs. I have done it where I've done up to 300 carbs on my high carb day. And to be perfectly honest, because I practice ketogenic so often, I just don't really feel good on that high carb day. I do think it probably is great for muscle building for some people, but for me, I'm most comfortable at about 150 carbs on my high carb day. And then around, um, 90 to 85 to 95, I should say on my lower carb day. And that's full carbs, not net.

Starting point is 01:05:48 Net carbs would probably be a lot less because most of those carbs are coming from vegetables. So what the first woman I hired, and I used her again for another show to help me with my nutrition. Now, of course, I can do this stuff on my own. But to get me ready for my first show, she had me on, I think think the most fat I had on my lower carb days when it wasn't a refeed was probably like 75 grams. It was pretty low for me. Maybe it was even less than that. And so I told her when I got ready for my second show, I said, look, I've been doing this keto thing for a long time. I really want to try to get ready for the show on a less carbohydrate

Starting point is 01:06:26 thing. So what I realized now that she did for me, which she didn't really tell me, is she still gave me my 300 carbs a week. She just spread them out over two days because I was doing every fourth day. It was a high carb day instead of one day a week. Does that make sense? So I would do six days, low carb,, one day high carb with 300 carbs. And then on the second prep, which I actually lost more weight on and got leaner, I got down to like 13.5% was high carb twice a week with 150 carbs and then low carb the other days. But I agree with you. When I get ready for a show, I have to cut out all nuts altogether because I just I can't be trusted with the nut butters. I can't. No way. So I have to totally. So I cut that out. I have to limit.

Starting point is 01:07:17 I only can have a half an avocado a day like I really have to limit that kind of stuff. So the fat that I eat during show prep largely comes from the fat in the meat, my coconut oil or MCT oil in my coffee in the morning, and a little bit of avocado and then a little bit of cooking oils. That's it. That makes a lot of sense. Again, it sounds like a very reasonable approach for somebody who is either prepping or just trying to maintain or reach a desirable body fat. I think one of the things that women especially, but a lot of people do wrong, like one of the approaches that's problematic when they're trying to do keto is people kind of focus on like the fat part. So they're thinking about adding fat, adding fat, eating fat, eating fat, when you really you're supposed to be thinking more about getting rid of carbs. So it's not to say that they still have too many carbs, but maybe they're eating so much additional fat. You come to the sad realization that even if you're eating very healthy fat sources, if you're eating 7,000 calories of them a day, you're probably not going to lean out. Like I learned this personally the hard way. And I learned that, you know, there are certain things that hit my

Starting point is 01:08:27 satiety signals better than others. And, you know, I heard so many people talking about keto, like, oh, you know, when you get fat adapted, it's like, you just, you can't, you can hardly eat anything. It's like, you can't eat enough and you're going to lose weight because the food's so satisfying. And I'm like, um, hello, I'm like raising my hand over here. Like, nope, not my experience. But I did find though, like when I do, like I tend to use either keto or like more strict carnivore as more of like sort of resets for me. So like, again, I kind of approach it like paleo generally. And I eat, I don't even really track macros that much. I just try to keep my portions to like normal human woman size and like go with that. But when I try to do like sort

Starting point is 01:09:04 of resets, because maybe I just went on vacation or I feel like my portion sizes are creeping or I just kind of ate like crap, I find like a three day to even a week long like carnivore reset is extremely effective because nothing hits that satiety signal like straight up meat does. I can overeat, like we said. I can eat nut butter and macadamia nuts and coconut stuff, coconut power balls until I'm dead. But if I'm eating a steak or ground beef, my body's like, you've had enough and I'll stop. And then you're also still getting the protein that you need. And you've and I just feel like energy wise and digestion wise, it's, it's such an easier concept for me to get around maybe than than strict keto. But I know, I know, we're all different. But I just think that that's,

Starting point is 01:09:53 it's cool to kind of experiment with all of these. And again, use them as tools, it doesn't have to be a lifestyle, you don't have to be like a crazy carnivore on Instagram that just eats four pounds of steak a day. And you don't have to be obsessive about your keto, but you can use these things as tools to help you achieve your goals, right? Yeah. I am literally just sitting here trying to figure out if we are fraternal twins separated at birth because you're the universe. It is crazy. Yes. I stopped at the meat store this morning on the way back from some meetings because I am literally doing a week long carnivore reset right now that I started this morning. So I was like, what should I get? So I bought grass fed ground beef, lamb, beef liver, pork belly,

Starting point is 01:10:40 and some turkey. And I'm like, well, that's what I'm eating all week. And I'm not going to do that forever. I'm not going to never have any other food again. But like you, if I notice that, okay, I've gotten a little lazy with some of the portions, or maybe I was having too much fun at different gatherings in the summer. This is a really good way to reset your metabolism, to reset your taste buds so that you're not reaching for like, in my case, it might be a quest bar after every meal, something where I get addicted to some of these other foods. I kind of want to come to Minnesota because your grocery list sounds pretty good. I just, it's so funny. I just had like a very interesting interaction at my local

Starting point is 01:11:19 butcher shop because I am very pro nose to tail eating, obviously, and also nose to tail carnivore because one of the only sort of, and this isn't even a criticism, it's just sort of a comment, and I made it to Sean Baker at KetoCon. And I was talking to like Chris Bell, who's big into the carnivore thing. And I was asking them, I'm like, I get that it's easy for your version of carnivore to like literally be just ground beef and steaks, but why not open it up a little bit, right? Like, look at all the animals there are out there for us to eat. Like you haven't even looked at seafood necessarily. Look at oysters, look at like shellfish. And you can have a very varied and kind of exciting and interesting and even texturally interesting diet if you're willing to maybe eat some liver or some heart or some, like I said, shellfish or whatever. And then

Starting point is 01:12:10 you're getting all of these different nutrients and vitamins and minerals and you're not getting maybe as bored. But anyway, so long story. Yeah, I went to my butcher shop and I was like, so like, do you guys have, you know, some like brain or do you have like just like the skin like the pork skin like I was asking for all the like weird stuff and they were like yeah you're gonna have to order like that special and you'd have to order like in bulk so I'm like so if I want to try like calf's brain or something because they you can make they're it's delicious it's like a pate they're like you're gonna have to order a lot of those. And I'm like, all right, this is, I'll, I'll get back to you because this is getting a little weird even for me. But like, I, I just think that it's, it's, you know, you want to make it easy.

Starting point is 01:12:52 You want to make it streamlined. It's great. But we're missing out on so much, um, interesting, fun, exciting things when we're like, all right, carnivores just steak. Cause it's not, you can do so much with it. Yeah, you totally can. And that's the thing I'm experimenting with all this stuff. Oh, I forgot. I almost forgot about my bone and ribeye. I got that too. So yeah. And I got a couple of Patagonia has come out with a couple of these like salmon packs to go so you can eat them cold or you can stick them in the microwave and heat them up in between things. So I got some of that and some salmon roe. Oh yeah, salmon roe, that's key. So fun.

Starting point is 01:13:29 Oh yeah. Yeah, that's good stuff. It is. It really is. The one thing I've been thinking, you know, I think that it's really important for people who decide to just eat a meat diet to really do their research so that they are making sure that they're understanding why organ meat is important and eating nose to tail is important because there are benefits that you get from all parts. Absolutely. All right, Kristen. Well, I don't want to keep you all day, although I definitely feel like we could talk all day. We're going to have to do this again, for sure. But tell us a little bit before I let you go, first of all, about your new company? Oh, certainly. So my new business is called Energetically Efficient. And my intention with the business is to be speaking, consulting and coaching in the health and wellness space. So

Starting point is 01:14:16 what does that mean? I spoke at KetoCon, I really want to be speaking on stage more to massive groups of people, helping educate them about nutrition and strength training, and basically optimizing how you can be the most superhuman person that you can be. And with the consulting, I'm doing some work. I'm targeting primarily in the beginning law firms and other lawyers, because that's what I did for so many years. And lawyers have some of the most unhealthy professionals around, and I really want to get them healthier. So that's one of the other groups that I'm targeting. And then I am doing some just more high touch, very personalized coaching for individuals and some couples who want to hire

Starting point is 01:15:02 me on a one-on-one basis to do anywhere between 60 days and six months of detailed nutrition and workout planning for them. So I'm developing some online stuff too, so that I can eventually reach more people in terms of online coursework, which will be really fun. So all of that is in process, but my website is energetically efficient. You can go to it and get on my wait list and I'll be announcing more information. I mean, talk about good branding because I've only met you once. We've only talked for a little bit over an hour. But if I could describe you in two words, it would be energetic and efficient.

Starting point is 01:15:35 So I think you're on point with that. Okay, so get this. That name came to me in meditation. This is my point. That's how it came to me in meditation. This is my point. That's how it came to me, Ashley. This is my point. The answers are all there for us. We just have to get out of our own way. That's a great place to end off. Are you competing again anytime soon? It is. So I'm not scheduled for any competitions. I'm trying to figure out whether I am going to do one this fall or if I'm going to wait until next spring. Certainly next spring, I'll be on the back of the

Starting point is 01:16:06 game. Awesome. Very exciting. I am going to be watching and listening and I can't wait for us to continue this conversation and just like bro out on all of the things that we love. I'm so glad that you took an hour to share and teach me and teach our listeners. It's been amazing. So thank you for your time. Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed our talk. All right, that's it. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed our girlmance.

Starting point is 01:16:36 It's not really a word for bromance when it's two girls, right? Like mutual affection and interest. It's not really girl crush per se. I don't think that's the right term, but okay, let's just say, I think she's awesome. I can't wait to follow her journey, get together, eat some meat, work out. I think it's the beginning of a beautiful friendship. Okay. Shout out again to my friends at ButcherBox and Beekeepers for keeping the show alive and running. I want to support them like they support me. And I want you guys to have access to awesome

Starting point is 01:17:02 companies doing great things. So make sure you check out the show notes. You can get all the discounts and information on the products and treats that they're giving you and go check them out and treat yourself. All right. Join me next week. I'm going to be chatting with Dr. Anthony Jay about his DNA consulting business where he takes now bear with me because it sounds scary. He takes our genetic information and tells us how to fix our problems. And there's more to it than that, obviously. And don't worry, he's not selling your information to the government for top secret weapons testing or anything, I'm pretty sure. He's just a smart guy who can take this information that we all hold inside ourselves that we don't know how to understand or go through necessarily. And he can inform you about unique

Starting point is 01:17:45 challenges or needs that you have so that you can optimize your health, your diet, your lifestyle, and your training. So if, for example, you try a diet or a workout that your friend is doing, and they love it, and you hate it, maybe there will be some insight as to why that is. Maybe there will be insight as to why you should train a certain way or why certain training doesn't work for you or why a certain diet that seems to be amazing for everybody isn't great for you. So I think it's really useful. And maybe in our chat, he'll tell me how genetically gifted and or damaged I am. We'll see. So either way, it'll be entertaining. Join me for that. Say hi, as always on Instagram. I'm there at the muscle maven ready to chat. And until next time, have a great week, everybody.

Barbell Shrugged - Attitude Is Everything: Learning From Pro Bodybuilder and Marathon Runner Kristin Rowell — Muscle Maven Radio Episode #27

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