Barbell Shrugged - Barbell Shrugged - Learning to Appreciate Your Body w/ Jen Esquer - 310

Episode Date: April 11, 2018

Jen Esquer, DPT, PT, has been on a ruthless ongoing journey to learn about the body and movement since she was a child. She was a professional gymnast until age 16, studied yoga and pilates, studied physiotherapy, and is continuously exploring and learning more . is creator of and The Optimal Body Preventing Pain & Injury Optimizing Lives. Dr. Jen is also the creator of The Mobility Method, which is designed to give the everyday person the opportunity to take themselves through a basic screening process and self-diagnose limitations. In addition, there are various modules to help individuals address their own personal needs, whether it be their neck, back, shoulders, etc. In this episode, we learn why the neutral spine doesn’t exist in the real world, why foam rolling gets misunderstood, how much of training has become robotic, why you need to have more appreciation for your body, and much more. Enjoy! - Mike, Doug and Anders ----------------------------------------------- ► Subscribe to Barbell Shrugged's Channel Here http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedSubscribe 📲 🎧 Listen to the audio version on the Apple Podcast App or Stitcher for Android Here- http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedApple http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedStitcher Barbell Shrugged helps people get better.  Usually in the gym, but outside as well. In 2012 they posted their first podcast and have been putting out weekly free videos and podcasts ever since. Along the way we've created successful online coaching programs including The Shrugged Strength Challenge, The Muscle Gain Challenge, FLIGHT, Barbell Shredded, and Barbell Bikini. We're also dedicated to helping affiliate gym owners grow their businesses and better serve their members by providing owners tools and resources like the Barbell Business Podcast. Find Barbell Shrugged here: Website: http://www.BarbellShrugged.com Facebook: http://facebook.com/barbellshruggedpodcast Twitter: http://twitter.com/barbellshrugged Instagram: http://instagram.com/barbellshruggedpodcast

And yet, when it was measured that when someone squats in neutral spine or deadlifts in neutral spine, your body is going to flex to at least 23 degrees. So that means any time that we're adding load or we're thinking that we're in perfect neutral spine, it's not true. And you're eventually probably maybe you can cause a disc herniation. We ready to rock? Rock it. Welcome to Barbell Shrugged, your source for strength and conditioning inside the Shrugged Collective. I'm Anders Varner. That's Doug Larson.

You bet. That's Kenny Kane. What's going on? We are in Santa Monica at Oak Park. Oak Park. Oak Park. This is Kenny's gym. Yep, yep. Former's Doug Larson. You bet. That's Kenny Kane. What's going on? We are in Santa Monica at Oak Park. Oak Park. Oak Park. This is Kenny's gym. Yep, yep.

Formerly CrossFit LA. Yep, yep. Yep, yep. We just had an epic handstand battle to start this thing off. Our guest today comes from a very serious gymnastics background, turned physical therapist, and now we've entered into the next stage of life here. Treating the world, basically.

Teaching mobility and solving all of life's problems by empowering people. Dr. Jen Escare. Oh, very nice. Got it. Because she cares. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you guys for having me.

I'm excited. Yeah, you bet. My favorite thing to do anytime we have a doctor on here, we're going myth busting. We've got to talk about some things. You've been lighting it up on your Instagram, the blog. I'm excited to get into understanding some of these neutral spine myths that are going around the world these days. That was what I wanted to learn about.

You stole my thing. Maybe we talked about it too much before the show. We did. We almost went too far and just had the whole conversation about it before the show started. We had to cut ourselves off. So I'm also very interested to get your thoughts on neutral spine. Is it real?

Is it not real? Like why do we use that term? Is it total bullshit or not? We'll dig into it. Kenny? The biggest thing I want to talk about, Jen, is your transition from physical therapist to where you are now and what sort of drove that passion.

So I'm sure we're going to have plenty of time landscape to cover that. Oh, for sure. I'm excited about that. Before we get rolling here, we have to thank our sponsors. Thrive Market. Love this place. We went in and interviewed Gennar, the CEO, a couple weeks ago. Make sure you get in and check that episode out. I loved going into that place. We went in and interviewed Gennar, the CEO, a couple weeks ago. Make sure you get in and check that episode out.

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I don't like it by itself. Yeah. I got to say, but I love the green in my smoothie. Okay. I put it in my Vitamix as well. My wife's like, what's a good taste? She's all about it. What do you put in my smoothie okay i put it in my vitamin mix as well my wife's like what's the what's the good taste she's all about it what do you what do you put in your smoothie oh i put frozen bananas gotta have those i need a little sugar yeah uh almond butter organifi protein uh and then like i think we use maca maybe cacao a little bit because I'm obsessed with chocolate.

Yeah. And then some almond milk and ice. Okay. Beautiful. Super basic. Mine's similar to that. I put a bunch of spinach, baby spinach, and then almond milk, frozen blueberries, sometimes a banana, depending on what the rest of my day looked like and how hard I trained that day.

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And yeah, Organifi.com backslash, not backslash shrugged, Organifi.com shrugged is your coupon code. You ready to do this? Ready. Tell us about this gymnastics career that led you into physical therapy. How far back do we need to go

to find the athletic Dr. Jen?en oh man i started at like five not with gymnastics though we were required to be in a sport actually all growing up uh which i'm super grateful for because it taught me just a lot of we were meaning your parents were like yes we were going to require you yeah as a child yeah to do sports and so i tried soccer. I hated it. I was five and played on a co-ed team and was not about to play with boys. So I literally sat on the sidelines and I cried every day. And then I tried softball and I was awful, but that was actually really fun. So I actually liked that one, but I was awful. And then finally I got into gymnastics, fell in love with it was again, awful. I was at YMCA, so they didn't even have a competitive program. Um, but I fell in love with it and I like started

to succeed. And so from there they were like, okay, let's put you into more of a program that would probably take you somewhere. And so I started doing that, tried dance a little bit. Honestly, the girls were a little bit mean. So I didn't continue with that. Um, and gymnastics was just where it stuck. And then from there I quit when I was 16, I, or retired. I like to say retired. That is the retirement age for a gymnast. I feel like it is. You either continue on or you're done. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's, it's a lot. And I knew I didn't want to do it in college. It was like, I was starting to do it because my coaches wanted me to, and my parents wanted me to, but it didn't feel like it was for me anymore. So I just came to a point where I was like, you know what, this

isn't for me. I, I know that I want to do other things. I want to experience life. I never went to a football game. You know, there was just other things in life that I, I just wanted to do other things. I want to experience life. I never went to a football game. You know, there's just other things in life that I just wanted to do. And I didn't want to continue that into college. So I quit. And from there, I started coaching. And I just fell in love with the body. There's someone who came in and she was teaching a Pilates boot camp at the gym and let coaches come for free.

And so I was like the one coach who came all the time. And she had built up no clientele. So it was like one-on-one with me, which was amazing. Because her thing was like, okay, I need to make her break. So we'd be like in a plane cold. And she's like touching every single part of my body to like, no, engage this and pull this and do this. And that really like opened my mindset, though, a lot in like what true like engagement is. Cause I would go into like a yoga class or a Pilates class and be like, this is easy.

And then after working with her, she gave me like such a better appreciation of what really engaging in the body and activating muscles and paying attention really meant and felt like. And so I would go into a yoga class after that and have just a whole new appreciation. Like, oh my God, that was so hard because now I'm actually doing work, not just going through the motions. And from her, I like, I've seriously learned a lot, started coaching or teaching Pilates then took that into undergrad and continued on into grad school as well, I wanted more so that's why I went into physical therapy because it wasn't like it was like cool to be able to tape an ankle

and do all these things in gymnastics and then modify movement and and help people like kind of find that within Pilates but it was still like I was always asking questions and I still am for today but it was always like but why am I taping an ankle and why am I modifying movement and why am I doing all these things so the more that I continue to ask why it just made sense that physical therapy was going to be the path for me I loved watching a therapist like watch movement of someone and be like what are they looking at and what are they examining so for me it was always seeking why and I still am like you never stop learning. And I think that's the coolest part about what being in like the movement world is and really being able to explore and dive in and continue to learn from everyone.

So did you go the more traditional route for a while? Were you actually like working in a physical therapy clinic and treating, treating patients and all that? And then are you still doing any of that these days? I'm treating about once a week, but not in a traditional clinic anymore. So the unfortunate thing is most PTs come out of school and they're like, I still don't know how to treat a client and have no confidence. Strength coaches do the same thing, by the way.

You go through undergrad and get a degree in kinesiology, graduate degree even. A lot of people come out and they know about exercise science and kinesiology and physiology and all that. You don't know how to play it. No idea how to work out. Exactly. Exactly and that's what i say it's like even physical therapy it's like it gave me a great like background as to how not to kill someone or what to look for but in terms of actually helping someone i don't think that it really gives you anything you have to continue and learn so much more. And so from there, I did want to go into a traditional like clinic and make sure I had a mentor that I could learn from. And so I went into a clinic. Luckily, this one had where you

had an evaluation for an hour and you saw two clients every other hour for follow-ups, which was really good for traditional clinics because it's usually like four patients an hour, just back to back. So it was a little bit better, but still mentorship kind of went to a ceiling because he, I started realizing how he would treat just like the same exercises for every single client and did ultrasound and laser and all these other things that just like kind of kept people in there, but wasn't really creating change. He would have rotator cuff people come back from like second surgery on the

other arm. And I'm like, how are you continuing to come back to the same PT who didn't help you the first time? I don't get it. So for me, it was like, I probably don't realize the guy didn't,

wasn't doing a good job because he makes this i mean if you could be super personable and likable as a therapist that says a lot about you sure that goes for almost any service business you don't have to be good at you don't what you're doing necessarily it's good to be but the clients often have no idea no idea and so they just think like oh i tore my rotator cuff again that happens and it's like well did you ever really get better though yeah and in my opinion no and and i think he had a lot of knowledge and i continued to learn from him and i think he was great but at the same token it was like he didn't want to apply it anymore it was kind of like just i'm going through the motions and I'm just doing and I'll answer your questions and help you out.

But I don't really care to continue to try my best with clients. And that kind of made me sad. Yeah. And the more that people started to reach out to me, people were coming in and paying cash to see me in the clinic. And I was just like kind of came to a point where I was like, OK, taking a leap. I don't know what's going to happen. And I'm just going to quit and see what happens. And from there I had. When was that, Jen?

That was a year ago. Wow. Okay. I thought you were talking about like five or ten years ago, like a long time ago. Oh, no. So I only graduated in 2015 and that's why I also had like imposter syndrome like I'm coming in putting all these things online where I have so many mentors in this space and I feel like I don't know anything yet and I'm such a young person um but I continue but it only

helped me to be able to form better relationships with my mentors and be able to get answers that I was looking for and be able to reach answers that I was looking for and be able to reach out and ask questions and learn. So I actually learned a lot more. The more I started to put myself out there, the more other people started to reach out and the more I started to learn. And so it didn't push me away from I quit my job and, um, it was funny. I like, I decided like in one night because I had a photo shoot and, and I emailed my bosses that day and I was like, if opportunities like this come up again, I don't want to have to say no. So I told them, I was like, I'm coming in on Monday. We need to have a meeting. One of them texted back and was like, don't leave us.

They knew it was coming. They knew right away. I told them, I have a week because I have a lot to figure out since now I'm going to go off and do my own thing. I'm sorry I can't give you guys two weeks. I love you and I appreciate you, but this is where I got to go. They were okay with it.

Jen, you said something at the top of the show that is kind of compelling to me as far as like what's happening in the movement space. And there's a lot of conversation now about awareness and mindfulness themes that are obviously ancient, but we're starting to get to this place where the RX or the prescription, whether it be for fitness adaptation or rehabilitation or prehab is starting to overlap with actually being mindful about what you're doing. Is that the, is that the thing that sort of drove you? Am I hearing you correctly? Is that, that's the thing that sort of drove you away from your, from your clinic? Yeah.

How are you teaching that, to your people like how do you engage mindfulness how do you how do you initiate the conversation of awareness because a lot of people want like the tactical okay what do i do okay and you can you can be online if you have a massive following you can be online going these are the positions yeah but that's very different than the mentor that made the most difference to you. The person that, no, no, this, this, this. How do you articulate that in mass? When I'm working one-on-one or when I'm working in a...

Both, let's say. Okay. So when I'm working one-on-one, it's really just about creating space. I always say that. So I'm like, I want to know them as a person from their background to what they're doing now and really every aspect of their life and whatever comes up. Like I have a lot of, I say a lot, you know, I have women that cry on my table all the time and that's not because I'm trying to be a psychologist or, or asking probing questions.

I'm really just creating space because so much pain especially is locked up from emotion. And finding that mindfulness is, I feel like just creating a space that makes them feel safe where they can then express whatever's coming up and allow themselves to feel their bodies again. Because being able to tap back into that and see where that is coming from is everything. Um, and so I really, that's, that's the main thing I do in person. And then online, I would say doing my challenges is the one thing that's helped the most because it's really about gratitude and, and mobility is like a little aspect of it. It's literally like two mobility exercises. And then mostly me just talking about, do you understand what you just did? Do you understand people can't do that?

Do you understand that you have this capable, able, moving body that is able to achieve these things? You know, you might say, oh, I can't touch my toes, but were you able to at one point? Could you get back to that point? You know, so getting people back into the appreciation of what their body does, what it is capable of doing, what other people have, and they still are able to like move and do all these things. So I talk about, you know, people with junior rheumatoid arthritis who still do yoga and, and run every day, and yet they can barely bend their arms to 90 degrees. And then I talk about, you know, cases with cerebral palsy, or if you have an amputee and you're still running marathons. So people who do and live within their full

capabilities and don't have any limitations or what we would put on them as limitations, you know, and then yet you're capable, able to like move into these other positions and you're not using it. So getting people back into that appreciation of what they can is really how I start to set the stage for mindfulness and just appreciation again. Yeah. Do you have any specific exercises for that or you're just, you're just letting them be aware that they should be thinking like that? Like how do you, how do you instill that in them? Really a lot of like talking it out and giving examples and giving stories, but the whole time we're also moving through different mobility things that just feel good within your body and always taking it back to the breath

and explaining that within it as well. Because when you can slow down and actually feel what the breath is doing and how to make it more efficient, you automatically, you know, start tapping back into your parasympathetic system, start decreasing stress levels, start decreasing pain. Like I've had a client on the table and I had her feel her breath. So meaning I go back to the super basics of hand on your chest, hand on your belly and breathing into the belly hand. Right. And I was literally just very gently rubbing on her, on her quad. I mean, not even doing much. And she's like, my back pain went away. I was like, yeah. And I guarantee it wasn't from me doing this,

you know? So getting her to be able to feel that in her own body again and release this tension release the stress get her back to this state of just calm and awareness is what really helps to get you to that next level yeah i really feel like the mental and behavioral health piece is like the next frontier and understanding wellness we spend a lot of time talking about strength and conditioning, and then it was like mobility. We have to mash the shit out of our quads, and people are grinding barbells into their knees, and like, are we really missing the picture here?

And all of a sudden now, people are starting to talk about mindfulness, breath work, and no one in academia is talking about this, really. They're usually last yeah but what happened in your life that what's up except for andy yeah he's all over he's he's different um but what where where did you find this stuff i mean i found it not because my life was going so awesome at the time and it was like what do i do what's the next step it's like oh let's learn how to breathe a little bit we We can create space. Like you're talking about, where did you find this? Really just listening to my mentors and being aware and opening up and seeing what's,

what they're talking about, why they're talking about it. Then I started taking courses on it. And then, you know, and again, going back to the why I'm always chasing the why, why is this happening? And then I would apply it. So even when I was working in the clinic and it was kind of rushed and it, the more that I was able to just connect with someone, the better that they're able to do. And how do you build that connections really creating space. So when I was able to then take that and use it for like an hour with a client one-on-one or an hour and a half or with an eval, I really, I really spend my time with someone. And, um, and it's funny too,

because I dove right in when I got out of the clinic, I automatically started having a lot of clients and it started easily flowing. But at the same time I was like, Oh, I didn't schedule myself a lunch because I'm spending so much time with these people. And it ended up being like, so energy sucking because it is, you're diving all the way in. Like when you're giving someone everything in terms of like, how can I actually help you get to the next level? You're like, it's so energy draining. So I had to like figure out how to scale back and figure out how to like take that and actually be able to give it to myself a little bit too. Yeah. Well, and when you're in that model where they're trying to crank as many people through in an hour or an eight hour day it could take you 30 minutes

just to break through someone's day on the crap they're bringing into the office i mean even as a trainer people bring so much junk into the gym with them and next thing you know they're they're way out of their element yeah um you're a therapist whether you know it or not yeah in any your pt your doctor your strength coach or whatever like if you're dealing with people one-on-one they're coming to you because they want to be a better person they want to get better at fitness or what have you you're still going to be treating them like a psychotherapist at some level because they're coming to you not to get in better shape or have more mobility they want to make their life better. Yeah, exactly. And they think you can help. There's something about that table where people just melt.

They're like, I'll tell you everything. Anything you want. I just met you, but I will tell you everything. It's true. I know. But that's what's sad about a lot of the typical clinics is that you don't get that time to connect. And that's why you see all these passive treatments. And people get better.

But because they're just backing off. I mean, we back off anything. We'll get better. We rest, we'll eventually recover. But is that helping? No, it's probably going to come back. You didn't really look at the person as a whole. And I think that's why a lot of like crappy, like exercises are just like, Oh, take this band and do this. And it's like, okay, did you even look, not only did you talk to someone, but did you look down to their feet and see how that affects up to their shoulder? You know, so it's like, did you look at a person as a whole? Because that's what it comes back to. Looking not only psychosocially, but then also just in your whole body.

I don't care if it's just your shoulder. Let's see how it affects the whole chain. And then we'll give exercises dependent on that. So, and I think you just don't have the time to do that in a regular clinic it requires a lot a lot of education to do that yeah physical therapists certainly have a high level of education at least academically and then you got to go get a bunch of experience on top of that of course but a lot of strength coaches especially if they're if they're new to fitness and they don't have that deep academic knowledge they don't really understand the body at like a functional anatomy level, it's hard for them to see how it's all linked together.

To have a systems approach requires an immense amount of knowledge. And it's just easier to give somebody banded external rotations when they say their shoulder hurts. Because it's like, oh, shoulder, shoulder. Okay, exercise for shoulder because you have shoulder pain, done. And there's something to some of that. But it actually is probably pretty far down the priority list of things you need to look at first. Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

On your Instagram account, I want to ask about this. You've been putting out a bunch of really cool educational videos that are, like, really simple and easy to understand. You know, what's the goal with that, and what are you looking to achieve with, like, kind of the online education stuff? Just getting people aware. I think building awareness is, like, the number one thing I can do, especially in that kind of space. It's one minute, it's quick. So let's, let's get you to think about something a little differently, or let's get you to just, to just see and feel your body. Try this movement, see how it feels. So just building awareness on that platform is the best thing that I can do. Because again, then, you know, people are going to be like, well, I have shoulder

pain. What do I do? Or I have rotator cuff and And I'm like, well, I don't know because I don't see you. You know? And I try to educate on that aspect as well. Like I even say in my programs, you know, it's like you can have the exact same diagnosis. But your treatment is going to be way different than someone else's. Like unless you stand exactly the same, you work exactly the same, you do activities exactly the same. Like it's just, you're not going to have the same treatment as someone else. It could be similar for sure. And it could have crossover in a lot of areas,

in a lot of ways, 100%. But at the same time, like your restrictions, your motor control, your whatever is coming at you in life can be way different that elicits different responses and is going to need different treatment. It depends on your background, Tim. It depends on your injury history. It depends on your mobility restrictions. Ideally, with the eval, you uncover the root cause of why they're in pain in the first place and why someone's in pain. Why my shoulder hurts and why your shoulder hurts could be completely different. Even if we both have a rotator cuff tear, we could have come, come about a rotator cuff tear for completely

different reasons. You got to go treat those reasons. And that's why the treatment is different in a lot of cases. For sure. And that's why it's hard to bring that to social media because they do just want to see, Oh, here's my pain. Here's the exercise, which doesn't work like that. So I do my best. But it's also like if I bring in like the breathing stuff, it's not sexy. So it doesn't do as well. And it's like it is like, you know, the cooler the exercise, the more attractive it's going to look and all this other stuff.

Next thing you know, you have one and a half hour long warm-ups where you have to lacrosse ball everything in your body. Next thing you know, you have one and a half hour long warmups where you have to lacrosse ball everything in your body. Sooner or later, you get there. Well, that's oftentimes too why a lot of like true experts hate like the clickbaity stuff where it's like the one best exercise for your shoulders ever, ever, ever. And they're just like, fuck. Like there is no one best exercise for your shoulders ever, ever, ever.

That's total bullshit. And that person's smashing. And the physical therapist or the doctor or the strength coach or whoever it is can tell just by reading the article that this person either is just doing a very good job of catering their message to people that are total beginners. Or they just aren't actually like a true expert themselves. Or they're just kind of a beginner expert and they still have 10 years to go before they really get it yeah and i think i think the the crap on the internet we're going to take a little break when we get back we're going to talk about some neutral spine stuff that we talked about earlier for sure she's been lighting it up on instagram on the blog we got to talk about neutral spine i think you put some stuff up about some olympic athletes and everything you've been seeing. So we'll get back from the break. We're going myth busting.

Let's do it. Dun, dun, dun. Dun, dun, dun. Thanks for watching the show. If you'd like to learn more about how to improve your snatch, clean, and jerk, we have a free 55-page e-book you can get at flightweightlifting.com. It has sample programming specifically for weightlifting, weightlifting how-to technique videos, and other tips on how to improve all of your lifts.

Go to flightweightlifting.com, and you can download that ebook for free download it now welcome back to barbell shrugged we are here with dr jen escare yes two for two crushed it we're gonna do a little myth busting but first i want to talk about some pilates i've been told like a trillion times by people that i really respect that i need to go be doing this pilates thing and you know what i do i don't listen to them i've never been why do i need to go do this and what what how does this stuff relate to people feeling better getting out of pain i know there's going to be some breathing in there some core activation tell me about it oh I mean, that's what really taught me what the core is, how to activate everything. There you go.

Hundreds. Pulsing. I'm doing the hundreds right now. I've even done the bar class. I've done the bar class. My wife got me into a bar class, and I haven't even done the Pilates. Once you've gone to a bar class, you've really just reached a new level. How was it, though?

I pulsed the shit out of something. I don't know what I was doing, but I was pulsing in dance positions. My sister was like, pulse more. I don't pulse. Okay. What is the pulse? What's funny is that coming from our backgrounds, it's really hard to figure that out. My sister was was a pilates instructor and when we took the team to the

games in 2011 i i forced everybody to do pilates and they're like what's this thing and then like i just want to show you guys the lack of pelvic control that you've got and they're just like what how does it what how does that work and i squat 400 i. I know. And everybody did. I'm like, well, that's great. But can you do the 100? No. Well, see, that's what I love about it, though. It's like it's true control of like every position. And that's what I love. It's not just like this concept of neutral spine, of like holding the core in.

But it's actually like can you now slowly control in a circle with your pelvis rotated? And then can you open? Like it's all these different intricate movements that really. That was very elegant, by the way. If that's what Pilates looks like, I'm probably not going to do well. Check that on YouTube if you're on the podcast right now

if you're listening audio only doesn't tell a story but it does tell a story if you've ever seen like a homeless man tap dancing asking for money

that's what Anders looks like doing Pilates now give me a dollar so you mentioned Pilates helps you control every position but you're coming

out of an extensive gymnastics background. And one thing we were talking about during the break is like, I feel like one of the main reasons I like gymnastics is because if you go from gymnastics to Pilates, you go from gymnastics to yoga, you go from gymnastics to CrossFit or to almost anything where you're going to be moving your own body around, like gymnastics is like the place to start from. Like you have a great range of motion,

very strong through that entire range of motion, awesome awesome core stability great spatial acrobatic awareness and so for you like you like pilates now is that something where you feel like it gives you different benefits than gymnastics like why not just do more gymnastics or is it just something that's just kind of fun and so you enjoy doing it like what's what's the rationale there um well for me when i especially when i first got into it it was like oh this is gymnastics this is conditioning and it's funny now like when i talk to my friends about conditioning when my friend says oh we're going to do conditioning that means sprints and running i didn't know that but for me that meant no it's like pilates work where you're like working the core okay that's what conditioning meant in gymnastics so apparently

it's a different term now for me. Right. Like anyone that did a field sport, like football, basketball, soccer, like conditioning means you're going to run sprints. Yeah,

exactly. Yeah. Totally different in gymnastics. Um, but it does, it did remind me of all of that, like being able to control your own body and all these different positions that we would do. That was all like,

um, in, into more of like a flex rounded position as a gymnast is a lot that comes back to Pilates. And so it just, I was like, oh, I know this, I can do this. And I loved it. And I loved how it made you really work at it. And it was hard and it was tough and it was learning something new. Plus it didn't have any pounding on my joints or anything like that. So that was really like the key for me is that I could do something that related to gymnastics and felt good in my body and was all under control and stability and awareness. Yet I didn't have to go put my body in awkward, super awkward positions, potentially dangerous positions and put really heavy load on my joints through pounding and everything i feel like everyone inevitably comes to the same conclusion that they want to be super

conditioned in very good shape but along the way they want to treat their joints very very well the older you get the more important you think that is right kenny at 102 i agree um so you mentioned neutral spine and we're just gonna have to we're gonna have to roll into this because you put a post up. You've got all these Olympians on your Instagram feed doing ridiculous things. Speed skaters going 40 miles an hour sideways but going forward all at the same time. Neutral spine doesn't exist in the real world. No.

And I think, Doug, you were talking about how some gymnastics coaches say that never exists. There's just stability in spinal positions well yeah i think i think it comes out of the weightlifting powerlifting world where you're doing squats and for for that one heavy movement squats and deadlifts like you want to have a quote-unquote neutral spine the neutral spine that everyone's thinking about right now that's that's designed or we we say neutral spine under the assumption that you have a heavy load either hanging from your hands or on your back. And there are better and worse ways to lift a heavy weight that's on your back for sure. But especially if you're in the gymnastics world, there's no like one specific movement you're trying to get good at.

There's many, many, many, many, many movements you need to get good at. And in every single one of those movements, whether you're tucked all the way in a ball doing some type of a flip or you're like fully extended, like global extension, like you need to be strong and stable in all those positions. There's no one single right way, one single correct neutral spine. And that is like the end all be all of spinal positions. Right, exactly. And I totally 100% agree. I mean, neutral spine, when you're lifting heavy load or you're in CrossFit, Olympic lifting, anything like that, it comes back to using a more efficient place. I mean, that's why we call it neutral spine. And that's why we still teach, you know, that you're going to lift heavy weight from this place because it just helps to stabilize everything. And it creates

more efficiency in the movement. If you were like this, then you have to lift the load away from you. It breaks the efficiency. So really, we're getting down to what's going to be more efficient in your movement, especially when you're lifting heavy load overhead. So that's where neutral spine is great. But then it gets pushed into all these other things where it's like, now you have to live and be like this and only stay here and be a robot. Don't Eric not to Mr. Robot. Which is just not reality. And then there, there's a study also that shows if you bend, um, you, it takes 18 degrees of lumbar flexion

to eventually cause a disc herniation, which is like nothing like, like this, it's like nothing 18 degrees really. And yet when it was measured that when someone squats in neutral spine or deadlifts in neutral spine, your body is going to flex to at least 23 degrees. So that means anytime that we're adding load or we're thinking that we're in perfect neutral spine, it's not true. And you're eventually probably, maybe you can cause a disc herniation, but that's also life. Like we, we move and does it mean that it's bad? No, because there's plenty of people that are walking around with disc herniations. Nothing's wrong with them. So it always goes back to experiencing pain. You mean? Yeah. They're not experiencing pain and it's probably going to resolve itself

more often than not. Yeah. So I, I, I always say it's not something to be feared where pain is coming from. It could be exasperated. Yes. It could be exasperating more into that area and cause more sensitivity. So opening up the hips and, and making sure the upper back is, is mobilized and taking pressure off of that area for sure is helpful and going to be better for that area. But at the same time, it's not something that we can 100% get away from. Like it's going to happen. You're going to move your spine. So being able to then strengthen and all these different areas and stabilize in different areas with flexion with extension with different segmental rotations and segmental places where you bend and flex is going to be the

best for your body i in my opinion we were interviewing a guy at cal state fullerton a biomechanics professor and he was talking about they did a bunch of research on functional movement screens, and they showed that the people that had the greatest amount of movement variety, which means they compensate all kinds of different ways, like they weren't so robotic, which is the term that you just used that made me think about this, people that could accomplish the most different types of positions to achieve a task for the sports that were that required a lot of reaction agility like football as opposed to like 100 meter sprinting 100 sprinting is like you're doing the same thing over and over and over again so

for the football players if they had more movement variety on the tests they got they had they were less likely rather to be injured during the season oh yeah the people that were more robotic more robotic, they did fine as long as they were running a hundred meter sprints, you know, the same thing, totally controlled, predictable. They weren't going to like run and then have to like, you know,

see something out of the corner of their eye and change directions quickly. Like, you know, without, without knowing it was coming, that type of thing. So being able to achieve many positions and be stable in those positions, especially if in life,

it's not a 100-meter sprint. You don't know what's going to happen in your life. You walk down the street and all of a sudden you step off the curb and all of a sudden you see a car coming and you quickly step back. You're more likely to be healthy if you can achieve many positions and be stable in those many different positions. 100%. Yeah.

And that's what we should be training. That's what we should be teaching. Who was that professor, by the way? God, I can't remember his name. You weren't there. Yeah, I wasn't there. You weren't there either. I can look it up.

You say Fullerton. I just assumed it was Galpin. No, it was the guy that he works with all the time. I can't remember his name off the top of my head, though. Jen, one of the things that we try to do here is kind of create a conversation that's a little bit more simple because the people that come here are everyday people. And I think a lot of this conversation can get lost in semantics. I think in general, sometimes a neutral spine dialogue is about teaching people some level of neural

control. And at the same time, I, I sincerely agree. And so we, we try to simplify it and to go and look the way we look at the body, it moves in seven general ways. You're going to run, you're going to jump, you're going to squat, push and press, pull, flex, extend, twist, and rotate. And with each one of those seven sort of compartments, there's an awareness of connectedness. There's a mindfulness of where the movement should be coming from, how you should either be braced or loose and ready to be agile going into the next movement transformation. And that's like hefty dialogue, but, and like very difficult to communicate and express over the lifetime of a student or a client. But if we can just go simplify the language for the practitioner and just go, look, you, you sometimes run and in a running position, like I'm not too fine, fond of a completely neutral spine, for example, because

I find that having coached, you know, world-class runners, like a little bit of a posterior talent is just going to help with stride length, especially if assuming, you know, turnover. So that's a very simple example. Similarly, if you're going through some sort of jump, there can be, you can start with them in neutral spine and get like a really profound reaction from it. But you can also start from a flex spine and get a really profound reaction from it. Um, I mean, kind of go down the list, but as people come in, like what we try to do is just simplify it around those things. So then it's like, are you aware within these movements? And then they can be expressed in more complex ways. But if they have a root conversation, like I don't need to know the big words. I need to know

what are the, what are the, the, the, the qualitative experiences that I need to be looking for and feeling while doing it. And if we can get our people to experience that more and more, then we can see, you know, the, the sort of expressions that a high level coach is looking for. And, you know, with expert coaches, there's always this like frustration, like, I'm not moving. Like I want you to move. And then there's like this psycho-emotional piece that we're talking about, like, yeah. And they're humans. Did you take 30 minutes to connect with them? No, but we're stuck with an hour. So there's this dance between all of these things. So, yeah, that's how we've kind of really tried to organize the dialogue around here.

And it seems to be working because people can wrap their heads around these basics. Yeah, and I think that's great. And going back to the basics is always super important. Like biomechanics is huge. And teaching efficiency and movement and getting back to awareness and that neural control like you're talking about. And then you can expand off of that and continue to build the awareness, continue to build awareness. But I think what's most important too is creating the conversation that it's safe and it's okay.

You know, like not fearing because I've also heard of people like, oh, well I had back pain so I couldn't, you know, untie my shoes because my therapist said that I couldn't bend from my spine. That's a good way to live the rest of your life. Exactly. Or there was another one. Someone reached out to me and she said, well, I have scoliosis. So my chiropractor said that I should never load my spine. And I was like, okay, well, then you better be carried around in a stretcher.

Because standing up, you're going to load your spine. Picking up anything ever again, ever, is excess load to your spine. It's funny, right before you came, Doug and Anders were here, and we have got this 69-year-old that comes in. He's got spinal stenosis and a Baker cyst. And, like, two years ago when he came, he literally couldn't get up off the ground. Like that was part of our screen. Like, can you get up off the ground for 69th birthday? We had him doing 69 burpees, like, you know, a year and a half, a little long,

almost two years later, you know, and it's just, so there's a certain point where his doctor's like, Oh no, you know, like I'm real cautious about this thing. And then two years later, like just by doing these things, I mean, we, we, we have to have people expressing and getting into these, you know, challenging these fear-based things. Yeah, exactly. Fear-based mindset is like so scary for people. And it's like, and it's also like going to some of the doctors, chiropractors, whatever, and getting this whole like x-ray of your spine or in saying like, oh, well you have forward head posture and this is what happens. If you have forward head posture, it's going to continue. And then you're going to have disc and it's like, wow, we just built a whole fear mindset and they're fine. Maybe it's like their

hip and they're like, you're like, well, you have forward head. So now this is going to happen. And so it creates this like very just scared world scared being and that in term increases you know your stress levels your pain that you puts you into that sympathetic system and it automatically just decreases your efficiency for being able to help someone i think when cell phones were invented, we created the forward neck. Like, nobody ever looked forward before a cell phone. It's like, oh, no, I have to sit at this computer. Let's create this thing.

No, we've always been able to move our head a little bit. We don't have to just, it's 2018, now I can move my neck forward. The other thing that we saw up on your blog was the foam rolling thing. Yeah. The number of people. Do you have any in here right now, Kenny? There might be people foam rolling.

Probably some people foam rolling in the back. What's going on there? Myth number two. I love foam rolling. Don't get me wrong. I mean, I do manual treatment. That means I'm going to be working on someone. So I still, you know, promote touch and the effect of being able to use a foam roller and what that can create in the body. But I think the conversation about what it really does is what needs to be expressed.

And that usually comes from people still saying it's breaking up scar tissue and yeah you know and that it still drives me bonkers and it's like impressive to me that that's still the mindset because it actually takes 200 tons to even deform fascia so unless we're going to be like a strong fiber it's pretty strong so unless we're going to be steamrolling these people, which, I mean, maybe you want to. They actually, it was like the Salzall with like a, or the Sander. That's the new one out. I said, like, do we really need a high-powered tool? Power tools.

The higher the power, the better it is. It's got to be good for us. And all those things are great. So like the vibrating foam rollers and all these things are not bad. And it's just tapping into the neurological system in a different way. So we have all these receptors that are underneath the skin and they respond to touch in different ways. So there's light touch, which means that you can affect someone just by like barely touching them. So you don't have to smash in.

There's also vibration. So there's different receptors that respond to vibration, which is why then you get onto a vibrating foam roll and you're like, oh my God, this feels amazing. It just released my whole quad, which is not true. And I think the new terminology should shift toward relaxing. We're actually relaxing a muscle. We're relaxing the nervous system. We're relaxing this. And that's a great thing to do. Touch is amazing. But do you need to dig into something? I don't think so. Relaxing is like the first level of like the breathing, the musculature. And people love to like, okay, like now I'm relaxed.

Like, probably not. Let's always just be good at level one. And then we can worry about the breathing and bracing and all that stuff. Like maybe when we get under load. But can we always just come back to level one, which is can we just relax a little bit more? Which a lot of people can't. I honestly have like clients and I just want to just put them in a big thing that just shakes their whole body. I'm just like let go.

Because a lot of times it's like I take an arm and I always try to test it. I'll just like drop a little bit. And if they stay right there, I'm like, you're not relaxing. You're totally crazy. I can see it in your arm. There's nothing I can do. Sorry, you're crazy. Where did that come from?

And I don't work with crazy people. I don't like your creed. Your arm stayed up. I got to go. Yeah, it's not going to work for me. But a lot of times, they're just not relaxing in their system. Okay. What is the benefit to relaxing a muscle, though?

Like you said it like it was so obviously a good thing. But for someone who has no idea why that's a good thing, you know, what's the benefit there? Because that's what's actually going to create mobility, flexibility, change in your range of motion, change in your joints, like really being able to affect motion and create new motion and get gain, you know, this mobility that everyone's talking about. We have to be able to relax in your system. And that's why a lot of people, they can stretch hamstrings for like ever. And they're like, nothing changes. And you're like, well, can you even breathe efficiently? Can you go into a state of total relaxation? Because a lot of times that's one of the number one things I'm working with clients is just like, can you let go within your body?

Because if you can't ever get to that parasympathetic system, we have a long road ahead. And I think a lot of people don't check that too, is that can they even just let go in their joints and allow me to move them passively? Because if they can't just let go and move passively, and now all of a sudden we're like doing all these correctives that are mostly stabilizing and adding this increased stabilization on top of someone who doesn't even have that relaxation component, you're not going to get much change. And they're probably going to have to come back to you and come back to you. And, you know, injuries are going to arise and things are going to happen. But if we can get into the state of allowing your body to understand what is truly passive,

what is truly active and getting that your body itself to create that own awareness without someone else doing it, that is the most powerful thing. Have you ever done a float tank? No, I actually haven't. So I just did it for the first time. I've heard about it forever. I hadn't done it until just recently. But that was one of the things I noticed about it that I didn't expect to the extent that I experienced that I was super, super, super relaxed. In a different way than just like laying in bed or just like meditating or trying to just be relaxed yeah like laying you know for if you don't know what it is it's

basically you're laying in a in a uh sensory deprivation yeah you're in a sensory deprivation tank you can't see anything can't hear anything um and you're in super salty body temperature ish water and because it's so salty you can float on top of the water you could fall asleep floating on top of the water and be just fine and because you're floating on top of the water you can just be super super super crazy relaxed you're just sitting there for an hour 90 minutes two hours or however long you choose to and the whole point is to be relaxed yeah and so that that was something i didn't expect that when i walked out of there i was like dude like i feel like like super loose and just like like you just and just like so chill.

Yeah, kind of like I just got a massage. Some joints were actually a little achy from maintaining a static position like that for the full hours, and they're about an hour. But I feel like someone that has issues with relaxing, if they tried something like that, it could be really beneficial for them. 100%. If they can tap into that, you can tap into that. Yeah. Some people can't. It's's hard the first time i did it it's hard to have the

perspective of not being able to do it if you can do it as well yeah the first time i did it i remember even though i was in the water and my neck was being supported by the floating the tension in my traps and my neck was just on fire for like half an hour and then all of a sudden my body was like you know what screw this we're not fighting it anymore and i finally felt it just like relax and i was like oh we got there good good for the next half hour just gonna hang out but it was it was crazy to see like how much you fight this with your shoulders and your ears all day long and you don't even realize that's going on right exactly um get into a float tank highly recommended oh no i know i i actually got uh one for lewis and i don't think he's going to use it,

so I'll probably use his. The best gift ever. Right? But I could just use it for myself. Right? I got you this thing that I can't wait to use. So good. So you have taken all of these ideas, this mobility piece,

and we have this awesome thing called the mobility method tell us about it um so when i created it it was really to give people a place where they can see everything at once instead of just like scroll through my instagram and do your best to try to find something um and so it takes them through like a pretty basic screening process of just where either flexibility or joints are supposed to be, like what is called normal. And so they're able to self-evaluate themselves and say, oh, can I get my arm right there? Can I do this? And allow them some perspective just in terms of starting to understand and gain awareness of their own body. And then it's broken up into all these different modules. So it has just, you know, a neck module,

a shoulder module, back module. And the intention is that it's just a very teaching tool. That's all it is. It's, it's literally like, I'm going to show you exactly how you should do this exercise, how long you should hold it, how you should do this exercise, how long you should hold it, how you should breathe, how it should look. And then you get to implement into your life and you get to kind of go through and see what exercises are best for your body or what exercises are most restricted. So you get to explore your own body, which some people don't like, because they're like, well, tell me what to do day one. You know, most people want that, like that structured, okay, this is the first week you're going to do day one. You know, most people want that, like that structured,

okay, this is the first week you're going to do this exercise, this exercise. And, and I couldn't create something like that because I don't believe in it. I believe, like we talked about in the very beginning, our bodies are all unique. They're all different, same diagnosis, but you'll have, you know, a million different restrictions. So allowing someone to dive into that on their own and say, here's your toolbox for life that you can always refer back to is pretty awesome. And there's a private Facebook group

where I do Facebook Lives and stuff so I can actually connect with people and answer questions that are specific to the program. And the self-assessment tool actually helps to guide them in like, oh, if this is restricted, here are some suggested places you should start at. So it gives a lot. I mean, there's morning mobility suggestions. They're all suggestions because this isn't like, again, my whole point is like, take a couple of these. Maybe you do one in the morning. You do a couple before you're going to do a workout you do a

couple before night like you just start to implement it into your life wherever it feels right because our bodies are different and everyone is going to respond differently so that's the whole intention and it's like starting to teach people how to brush their teeth again you know you brush your teeth every day so that you can prevent cavities why aren't we moving into restrictions moving into our body in these better ways to prevent injury so that you can go kill your workout so that you can go squat lower and lift heavier and run more efficiently like it is designed so that you start to understand why this is important is there any particular person that you feel like will get the most

out of this program? Is it like targeted toward any specific type of person or demographic? I would say anyone who wants to move. Movers. Humans. You're going to start with humans. Typically humans. I mean, really it's for everyone. I'm trying to get, just build the awareness in general. So I even like I have therapists and trainers who have the program because it helps to implement them into their clientele. I have people who are in pain and it helps to get them out of pain where I've had stories where it's like, Oh, I went to my chiropractor for eight months, did the program for two weeks and I don't have pain. So that is super powerful and super amazing for me. And then it's really just people who aren't in pain but want to start exploring their body, don't want to have injury, want to, you know, progress and have longevity.

I've had power lifters who are like, I started lifting heavier after I did this program, which was amazing, you know, and, and getting that myth busted too, of like, you, you know, you don't have to be afraid to open up joints and stretch more and do all these other things. It's only going to help you with whatever sport you're trying to do. I forget sometimes that there's still people out there that think that stretching is going to actually be detrimental to the performance in their sport. They think it'll make you slower. It won't help your strength. We kind of forget that because we've been around this for so long. Gymnasts don't think that, of course, but some other strength sports,

old school people in those sports do think that. 100%. Just like baseball players used to think you shouldn't lift weights because it would make you muscle bound. You wouldn't be able to throw hard. It's kind of old school thinking, but there's still people out there that, that fall in line with that, that level of,

um, of knowledge these days. Yeah. Where can people find you? Uh, mostly Instagram. Right. If you are not already following her on Instagram,

where the hell have you been? Where have you been? Thank you. Gosh. What's your handle? Doc Jen fit. Where can I find the mobility method uh usually there but also my website docgenfit.com so i'm pretty you know across the board youtube doc gen fit facebook doc gen fit everywhere doc gen fit there it is

cheers yeah kenny where can people find you? At the gym. First time here. I don't know. I don't remember. At the gym coaching. Listen, periodically I will check my Instagram. Periodically means every, I don't know, two weeks. I always feel good when you hit a double tap on a post.

I'm like, Kenny saw me. Yeah. I have low exposure. He did it. I have low exposure to the socials. But I can low exposure. He did it. I have low exposure to the socials, but I can be found. And also we just started our, we're starting our O Park LA Instagram as well. So those are the two things that we're just, we're just starting right now.

One more thing about these challenges that you have going on. Where can people find these? I usually will post about them on my Instagram. So get people aware and into those because they're so much fun and honestly i i like to say it as like i yes i have a following and i can help and inspire but unless everyone else is kind of doing the same thing and empowering people to move and go into mobility and understand what it is like i can't do it alone so getting other people to post about it and bring awareness is huge pay movement forward yes what do we got uh you can follow me on instagram at douglas e

larson also douglarsonfitness.com for anything that i'm doing as far as like live events seminars and whatnot you can find it there and of course everything barbell shrug barbell collective related i'm all over that i love it i've been for a long time um thank you for coming to hang out today i'm actually in this fun world with you um i do the movement rehabilitation piece as my this is our fun job i guess teach people how to move better breathe better all the all the brain pieces that go along with it so you can find me at shrugged.thelowbackfix.com shrugged listeners save 20 bucks on your first program

come and hang out make sure you get over to iTunes subscribe, get to YouTube, subscribe to the channel give us a 5 star review leave something nice for us come on people you guys ready to go lift weights? I love it thanks Jen leave something nice for us. Come on, people. You guys ready to go lift weights?

Let's do it. Yeah. I love it. Thanks, Jen. Thanks, Jen. Yeah, thank you. Cheers. Thanks for making it all the way to the end of the show. If you liked the show, which I know you did,

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