Barbell Shrugged - Body of Knowledge  —  Chapter 3  — Powerful Prevention w/ Jack Osbourne

Episode Date: April 27, 2018

In Chapter 3, Jack Osbourne discusses becoming a happy, healthy person. He grew up in a world of abundance as a reality tv star and the son of Ozzy Osbourne. Since then, he has sustained major personal growth. Kenny, Andy and Jack discuss autoimmune diseases, changing behavioral patterns and using physical training to fight the neurological effects of aging. Enjoy! -Kenny and Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Show notes: http://www.shruggedcollective.com/bok_chapter3 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------Please support our partners! Thrive Market is a proud supporter of us here at Barbell Shrugged.  We very much appreciate all they do with us and we’d love for you to support them in return!  Thrive Market has a special offer for you. You get $60 of FREE Organic Groceries + Free Shipping and a 30 day trial, click the link below: https://thrivemarket.com/body How it works:  Users will get $20 off their first 3 orders of $49 or more + free shipping.  No code is necessary because the discount will be applied at checkout. Many of you will be going to the store this week anyway, so why not give Thrive Market a try! ► Subscribe to Shrugged Collective's Channel Here http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedSubscribe 📲 🎧 Listen to the audio version on the Apple Podcast App or Stitcher for Android Here- http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedApple http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedStitcher Shrugged Collective is a network of fitness, health and performance shows that help people achieve their physical and mental health goals.  Usually in the gym, but outside as well. In 2012 they posted their first Barbell Shrugged podcast and have been putting out weekly free videos and podcasts ever since. Along the way we've created successful online coaching programs including The Shrugged Strength Challenge, The Muscle Gain Challenge, FLIGHT, Barbell Shredded, and Barbell Bikini. We're also dedicated to helping affiliate gym owners grow their businesses and better serve their members by providing owners tools and resources like the Barbell Business Podcast. Find Shrugged Collective and their flagship show Barbell Shrugged here: SUBSCRIBE ON ITUNES ► http://bit.ly/ShruggedCollectiveiTunes WEBSITE ► https://www.ShruggedCollective.com INSTAGRAM ► https://instagram.com/shruggedcollective FACEBOOK ► https://facebook.com/barbellshruggedp... TWITTER ► http://twitter.com/barbellshrugged

Um, can we start again? Yeah? Where's the future of this understanding going? Don't know. Why? Anyways. We are not a singular thing. We are built to change. At the most advanced levels of everything it comes down to fundamental basics these are general health practices that every human should be striving for

it's candy madness scream if you like candy i don't know where that came from. I wasn't listening. I was just thinking about that. You've got two? I do. How old are they? I have a nearly five-year-old and a nearly two-year-old. Who's like 14 in some ways. In some ways, yeah.

Daddy. Yeah, I won't actually go into too much detail. I was going to say, but she takes turds like a 40-year-old man. What did she call it the other day? She used your language, man. She goes, Daddy, I took a man dump. Because I'm always like, that's a man dump. That did not come out of a four-year-old.

Well, if you're just tuning in, that is the voice of Jack Osborne. And he was speaking of his lovely four-year-old daughter who can produce great content. Healthy content. You are listening to The Body of Knowledge with Andy Galpin. My name is Kenny Kane, and this week our guest is Jack Osborne. Jack, there's a million things to talk about today, but I think one of the things that surprise is our co-host is that you can actually arrest people yeah I need be I can a right well it went on duty I can arrest people so what does that mean so I am a reserve police

officer and so I act and function as a normal police officer when on duty so do you ever get the urge just run around and arrest all of your friends and and co-workers no because here's the thing about it like arrest sucks paperwork yeah no but let's be honest like when someone is getting arrested it's never because of something good happening yeah so it's kind of like like oh like really like and you i wanted like the real like that and there are arrests that like stick with me that i'm like i really wish i didn't have to do that this one arrest was this guy who was probably in his late 60s and he his wife had gone out drinking and he had to go pick her up, but he'd been at home drinking. Oh.

And he really didn't want to go get her, and she was basically like, you need to come get me. And we pulled him over, and it was like his fourth DUI. And he was going away for a long time. Yeah. And he was just so, because he wasn't even that drunk. And we were just like... And with DUIs, you have to lock them up. Because what happens if we took him home and he went out drinking and then killed someone?

It's like we're then responsible for some really bad things happening. Have you ever arrested somebody and then they're looking at you going, I know you. Yeah, it does happen, but usually after the fact. It's like when you come, because once again, like when police turn up,

people are kind of elevated. They're really like hysteric or there's drama and everyone. So they're not really focusing on people's faces or names. They're focusing on the kind of bigger picture. It's kind of like tunnel – people get tunnel vision. So it's usually when we're about to leave or we're getting someone out of the car at the police station or the jail when they know like, oh, there's somebody in there.

So it's – What made you want to do that? So I did this very badly executed but fun to make TV show called Armed and Famous. And we went to a police academy and we became cops, a bunch of other celebrities. And it was an incredible show to be a part of, but just brutally executed as far as the way it was aired. But I just maintained it for the last 10 years. So now I'm actually switching departments to one in California. Are any of the other celebrities that you did that show with currently still practicing? Yes, actually.

And you call that practicing? No. What do you call it? You would still say active. Active, okay. Yeah, yeah. Eric Estrada. And that was the problem.

Like, let me talk you to the cast of the show. Let me break this down to you. Myself, Eric Estrada, Trish Stratus of WWE fame, who was awesome,

Wee Man, and LaToya Jackson. So it just ended up being like it was screwed from the gate, but I was like, my whole thing was like, so I get to be a real cop? They're like, yeah. And I was like, and I get to carry a gun? And they're like, yeah. And I'm a real cop, right? They're like, yeah.

I was like, I'll do it. So you're what, mid-20s? was 21 20 oh 21 fantastic let's take a 21 year old child celebrity and let's make him a functioning police officer i took it very i mean they asked me to stay like when the show was over they're like hey we'll you know we'll give you a position like full-time on the department come and stay because i i took it seriously. Do you feel like that helped you mature at all or was that pretty? A hundred percent. Really? Yeah.

Because it's such a responsibility and you kind of, if you don't respect that responsibility, you can get shot. You know, yeah, it's fun to ride around in police cars and, you know, do all crazy cop stuff. But at the end of the day, I believe in service and I believe in community service. And I think if people want to have a say in society, they should participate in society. And so for me, I'm like, well, it's, you know,

it's service to the community. So, Jack, you and I met five years ago was it five? yeah nearly five nearly it'll be five in the summer five years ago at the games

five years at the games Kelly Starrett had introduced us and you were doing some work with Reebok at the time we then I was a sponsored Reebok athlete no big deal were you really?

technically I was sponsored by Reebok because I went to England to help launch the CrossFit Reebok initiative. That's right. Okay. And that's how we got connected. Yeah. So within all that, our connection came as a potential coach trainer for you. And it took us basically three years to kind of circle back both because

we knocked up women in the meantime yep and started having babies and then we finally and i lived completely opposite side of the city and so we finally connected about two years ago and there was a lot of things that we had to sort of identify that were significant in your health history. The most obvious one that some people might be aware of is MS. Yep. So just for people who know what that is, I'd love to hear your description of it. And then Andy, try to back that up if we're missing anything from the physiological standpoint. Okay. All right. Here's my layman's terms of what MS is. It's an autoimmune disease where your body attacks your nervous system, and there's a fatty layer that surrounds your nerve endings called myelin,

and the attack will strip away the myelin, thus exposing the nerve and then causing inflammation, and then eventually over time that nerve will erode down. Think of it like an electrical wire has a rubber coating. You strip that wire away, that wire, you strip that electrical coat, the plastic coating away, the rubber coating, that wire will not work as well. And if you keep stripping it away, that wire will break. So you find this out six years ago, five years? Five years ago. It'll be five years in May. And at that point, you've got to make some pretty critical life decisions. Yeah.

Ish? Yeah, totally. Well, I mean, you've got to make life decisions, but it's also strange because you're like, but I don't understand the decision. You don't get it because it's just so like at least for me anyway i was really um kind of taken about because i was like i don't understand how this is happening why what does this mean i don't understand i have to make decisions but i don't know what decisions to make they're telling me to do this and that but stuff it was just you know it's a strange position to be in at 20 was i 26 27 with a newborn baby. How did you find out?

I developed optic neuritis. So my optic nerve was attacked and went blind. About 90% of my eye went blind, my right eye. And I did what any 20-something-year-old does and has a problem with his eye. I'm going to the eye doctor. The eye doctor was like, you need to go get an MRI right now.

But then doing some kind of medical detective work, we determined that 18 months prior to that, both my legs went numb for like four months. And because you were 20, you did nothing. Yeah. Right. Yep. Listen, I went and had a couple acupuncture sessions. Oh, sure.

Okay. And, you know, and I just figured I pinched a nerve. Yeah. Yeah. That'll clear it up. Yeah. So, and then. Well, you did, kind of, technically.

Yeah. I mean, your nerves were just attacking themselves. So, your body was attacking your nerves, right? Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. How does that affect you movement-wise, lifestyle-wise, when you have the MS? What does that mean for you when you're doing your normal day activities?

Sure. So when, you know, I have relapsing-remitting MS, so I'll get a flare-up and then it'll go away. RR, right. So, obviously, optic neuritis, I went blind in my right eye. I mean, it doesn't get more obvious than that. Like, I could not see anything except about 10% of peripheral vision, which actually helped for driving because I could still see if i just kind of and police detective right no so a vision and then when my legs went numb i'd notice like motor skill stuff and and

when i was when i got diagnosed i had some um just fine motor skill issues my reflexes were delayed oh you want to know how that works by the way yeah do you know how it works kenny uh just fine motor skill issues. My reflexes were delayed. Oh, you want to know how that works, by the way? Yeah. Do you know how it works, Kenny? No. I use this one in class all the time. So there are things in turn inside of your muscle called muscle spindles.

So these are deep in the belly of all of your muscles, and they are sensory organs, right? And what they sense is stretch. And how they work is they send uh you have these giant motor units so this is one nerve that comes down and each nerve innervates hundreds or thousands of individual muscle fibers it's called the motor unit all right so when you turn that nerve on all the fibers in that motor unit are then activated so the way that it works is the motor unit the nerve turns on the muscle fibers

through what are called alpha motor neurons. That's the type of the motor neuron. But the sensory organs, they go back to your central nervous system via gamma motor neurons. So here's what happens. The doctor hits your patella right below your knee, right? That pushes that patella tendon back into your knee, which stretches your quadricep. That stretch is then picked up by those muscle spindles. They sense stretch and respond by causing contraction. Interesting. You ever wonder why doctors do that for normal physical? They're looking to see if your spinal cord and your nervous system are functioning correctly, and it's a very quick diagnostic. So, Jack, you had very little response on that test then? No, it was just delayed.

It was just delayed. Yeah, right. So. As these tests are going on, are you kind of putting some of the stuff together? Are you kind of like wondering? I had no idea. I had no idea what MS. I'd obviously heard of MS, but I had no idea what symptoms there were for MS.

If you actually look at the list of symptoms for MS, it's pretty broad. Very. I mean, it's anything and everything from taste issues to vision, touch, walking, leg drop, things like that. So it's really, it's a tough one to diagnose. That's why it's a tough disease to diagnose because it gets misdiagnosed a lot. Jack, there are other autoimmune diseases in addition to MS, yeah? Sure, yeah. I mean, there's, I mean, psoriasis, arthritis, all of which actually share very similar traits to MS. I mean, psoriasis is, you know, your skin becomes inflamed. And I mean, that's essentially

what happens to your myelin sheath with MS. Right. And they all, yeah, they all seem to have the same flare ups. Yeah. Right. Psoriasis is the same thing. And if you talk to anyone that has that or Crohn's disease or any of these other issues, they realize, or they eventually have to figure out what are the situations and scenarios that kick these things on. Yeah. Right. So, oh man, I got to realize I have to stay away from this food or this type of drinking. So that's when you have to gear your lifestyle around it to identify those triggers is what they'll call them and then get away from them. Yeah, for sure. And that's one thing that you've identified really well and have been cleaning up the last couple of years. My wife has dermatotoracic psoriasis. And the thing with her is that like she will do rigorous workout and, you know, she, her level of soreness is higher on average than other people's. And so it takes her longer to recover some with like her swedish track mates when she was running

internationally she'd be exposed exact same identical workout and then it would take her instead of like a teammate one to two days it would take her often three four days to recover from some efforts interesting you know um now some of the advancement in all of this has been stem cell research, in addition to behavioral things that change your exposures to inflammatory stress responses. There are also other very interesting scientific things going on that are external. So what's going on with the stem cell discoveries? I've got a pretty interesting thing that just came out a couple of days ago. But before we do that, I actually want to hear, Jack, you've experimented with these things before.

Sure, yeah. You know a little bit about it. What have you done? So very early on in my diagnosis, I did what everyone does. Like I said earlier, I went online, researched. Within the last 15 years, you know, stem cell has been kind of this interesting developing science in the medical field. And you often hear it on the news and, oh, stem cell this and that.

What is it? Can it work? Doesn't it work? You know, whatever. It was funny. The very first, I go to a MS know, this panel of, you know, many scientists and doctors, they, you know, they were saying at the time they hadn't seen really any benefit for stem cell with dealing with multiple sclerosis and the nervous system. And I was like, okay, fair enough. And then,

you know, I continue to do some research and to the point in which we were just talking about with the immune system, I kind of had this light bulb moment of, well, I have an autoimmune disease that's affecting my immune system. So, for me, I went, well, what about stem cells for my immune system? Right. And I looked into that and I went to Germany and I did a round of stem cells that were injected into my lymphatic system. And this goes back to what I said earlier about I came at my diagnosis from a complete global approach. Diet, exercise, prescribed treatment plan from a doctor and some alternative therapies i i very much you know am aware of where stem cells are with the fda and the way that they look at it and i and the approach i did take it was very much from like hey this is just an alternative kind of

approach and so you know i went through a full detoxification and crazy kind of thing in Germany. And I had the stem cells in my lymphatic system. Was going to a German lab fun? And did they speak the fun kind of German? It was incredibly – it was amazing because these clinics in germany the medical field there is run very differently than it is here you know they call it like wellness treatment and it's how the closest thing you compare it to would be going to like a wellness center in america where they'll like massage your feet and like you know put oils on you and you know there's someone with like a

bell but there in germany it's like no this is this is how we take care of ourselves because the the mindset over there is whole health yeah they don't they don't like to just uh treat symptoms they like to prevent and treat uh the source and so that's very much their the approach in germany which ultimately i'm very privileged and fortunate to have been able to experience it and And, you know, can I say that this was the one thing that's attributed to my success? I don't believe so. I believe that it was a piece of the puzzle for me. And so, you know, it's an ongoing, continual quest, personally. Tim Ferriss just did a quote for my upcoming book, and he said that, you know, a bad doctor will treat the symptom, and a good doctor will treat the cause.

But a great doctor will treat the body. Yeah. It's got to be the entire thing. Exactly. And that is totally my approach to dealing with autoimmune. Just posted this two days ago or something, quite timely on my Instagram feed. And it actually came up. We had this shoot with you planned way before, and I was just shocked. It just came out, hit the scientific world a couple of days ago.

There's a guy named Eric Olson, one of the most famous muscle physiology researchers, muscle guys of all time. And he just announced they have discovered a new type of stem cell. Now, they hadn't realized. We had known of several different types before, and this one is called TWIST2. It does the normal thing, goes from a stem cell to develops a myoblast that eventually differentiates into a muscle fiber.

What's interesting about it is it apparently is extremely abundant in the body, which is crazy to think that we're on the level of giving people stem cells, and then all of a sudden we realize there's a type of stem cell that we had never found before, and it's all over the place. And it apparently targets fast-twitch muscle fiber types specifically. Interesting. So when you get this thing around, its whole point is to help you grow new fast-twitch muscle fibers, which is actually the real problem with aging and some of these other pathologies is a loss of fast-twitch fiber types.

Are you familiar, Jack, in any of your stuff with the idea of fiber type grouping? Personally, as far as, yes, I am. Okay, so here's how it works. Do you remember earlier when I was telling you about the motor unit? Yeah. One neuron that activates 20 or 30 or hundreds of muscle fibers. Yeah. Well, the neuron determines the fiber type.

Okay. So you have a slow-twitch neuron, think of it this way, and a fast-twitch neuron. And all the fibers in the slow-twitch motor unit are slow-twitch fibers. And all of the fibers in the fast-twitch motor unit are fast-twitch, right? Yeah. Well, what happens is there's a concept called the size principle by this awesome one of my favorite scientists of all time eldwood henneman and he basically said the ability of a neuron to discharge or the susceptibility of it to discharge is based on its size which is a fancy way of

saying if if jack you were a slow neuron and Kenny, you were a fast neuron, if I sent you both a text message, the susceptibility of you to fire, which in this case is to say, return a text message back to me, confirm we're there at 11. Jack, you would immediately back to me, right? And we all know those people who,

like when you text, somehow before the text even you hit send, they automatically have a reply back to you. Yeah. Like they're super fast, okay? It doesn't take much for you to discharge. Anything will get you to go. It usually takes me like

20 seconds to discharge. We've got two pieces of evidence of that. But candy takes you much more. So I'll probably have to text you three times or four times or I'll have to call you. It's going to have to be a higher amplitude for you to fire. And so the way that the nervous system works is you send a signal, say, from your brainstem, and it goes out to all of your neurons.

But some of them have a higher susceptibility or need more action to discharge. What happens is over time with MS or with normal people, this is a normal aging function, people stop using or stop doing these high force movements. Yeah. And the size principle tells us this is predicated not on effort or intent, but specifically on force production. If you don't do things occasionally that require high force production, Kenny stops being talked to yeah now imagine if we were sitting here and every time i just sent a text to you and i didn't include

kenny anymore after 10 or 15 years eventually kenny's gonna think we're not friends anymore yeah and he's just gonna go home yeah totally makes sense but in this case that means the nerve dies yeah so it's gone and you cannot regrow a nerve after it's died from something like this just going to go home. Yeah, totally. Makes sense. But in this case, that means the nerve dies. Yeah. So it's gone and you cannot regrow a nerve after it's died from something like this. Yeah. And so what happens though, is Kenny had five or 10 or 500 fibers that he used to control. Those fibers don't die, but Kenny dies. Those fibers are left around and Jack, you're greedy. And you go, you look over at Kenny's muscle fibers and you go, oh, you got, you got 10 or 15 fine looking fibers over there. I'm going to actually grow a new end of my nerve attached to those muscle fibers. So now it becomes a part of that movement. Now it is a part of your

entire motor unit. But the problem was Kenny, all of your fibers were fast twitch, right? How it used to work is I was fast and you were slow, and we had this mix of fast and slow all around. And so if you picture, say, your bicep, you want to have some of your fast and slow twitch fibers sporadically placed throughout the entire muscle. Yeah. This gives me control of movement, right?

Well, if I lose all of those nerves, and they're all now innervated by one single nerve, and they're all the same fiber type, we call this grouping, you have these huge chunks of muscle that are now all controlled by one neuron, and they're all the same fiber type. So when I go to do fine motor movements, or I go to do high force movements, I get really spastic, uncontrolled movement, or I simply lose force production because I have just now lost all these fast neurons. Interesting. So this is happening with normal aging. It's certainly happening with pathological diseases or other scenarios like that. But as we talked about in the muscle episode,

your ability to change your fiber type is very, very, very high. So you can do this with exercise. It happens very quickly in terms of just a matter of days or weeks. And the magnitude of change is extremely high. And so where it comes back to you, Jack, in particular, is this is something that you have an accelerated rate of this happening because you literally have a disorder where your body is attacking your own neurons. And the most logical strategic defense for that is to do the activities that target the neurons that you know in particular are at the highest risk.

So translation, Kenny, he needs to do something that requires high force. We've been doing that. Yeah. A lot of that. A lot of that. As Jack first came, he had been go rucking and that kind of thing so he had an ability to sort of sustain an effort not necessarily at high force production at all that was one of the things i could see very early is like his ability to

kind of generate high power or high power surges was just it wasn't really there if i told him to put on a backpack and just walk for 12 hours he wouldn't stop he just unless he overheated which could happen depending on the temperature with time and exposure to weight lifting and in particular like little phosphogenic spurts throughout the training and lots of glycolytic intervals and a lot of a lot of weight-bearing stuff his ability to handle a variety of tasks improved very quickly, actually. And we were talking before we got started,

some of the other stuff that you guys recently started doing, the agility training, the footwork trainings. If you look at strength or speed or power, these are heavily neurologically dependent. And so you might be thinking, like, I'm 30 years old. I'm not an athlete. You're not doing any football combine anytime soon. So why in the hell are you, who just wants to be healthy

and attack your MS, why are you doing all these agility drills? Because that's what's really going to tax and train your neurological system. Interesting. Okay. So there's no accident there, right? You might be thinking, like, ah, he's just doing this to have fun, right? Yeah. Well, that's part of it, but there's a real training there.

And if you're looking or if you're listening, you're going, well, I don't have MS. This is not a worry of mine. Well, I just told you a second ago, this is a normal function of aging. Yeah. And more importantly, we look at those footwork drills.

One of the major predictors of a fall and a break is foot speed. And the reason is because if you trip and you're going to fall and you need to catch yourself, what determines whether or not you catch yourself is the ability to move your foot out there and catch yourself. The speed in which your foot moves. And then you have to have the eccentric strength to once your foot gets in place to catch yourself in that right position. And so really what we're talking about here is these are general health practices that every human should be striving for, whether you have MS or not,

because we're all going to face this issue. The wonderful quote I love about this from the famous Bill Bowerman, if you have a body, you're an athlete. And so it's not about playing a sport better or crossfit better if you want but you can focus on that now 100 but really we're talking about these are normal healthy human practices or they should be yeah train like an athlete train like an athlete you know it's funny you uh bring this up this has been an ongoing conversation within the CrossFit community because there's 10 general skills of fitness. And on one side of it, if you were to make a teeter-totter, you'd have things that you can

improve just by basic exposure, and they're very measurable. So you got strength, cardio-respiratory endurance, stamina, and flexibility. Those are all things that you can sort of train. But the other thing that you have to put on the far side of that balance beam is coordination, accuracy, agility, and balance. And what Andy's saying, Jack, is what we've experienced in your training is we've integrated some of that stuff, sometimes in our warmups, whether it be some like move nap-based principles, agility ladders, some of those other things and then what we see is by getting those nerves to fire some of the other things that we're trying to

work on like in the endurance is going up that the strength is going up and in the middle the fulcrum that balances that whole thing is speed and power so speed and power both require neurological development which is one side of the teeter-totter and the other is that sort of training environment. And so without a balanced program that combines all of those elements, you can't improve the things that are very measurable, speed and power. That makes sense, right? So we've slowly with time integrated that with some intentionality, but it's also a critique of, I think that the broader fitness industry sometimes the functional intensity world crossfit

hit training all that kind of stuff looked it was going on in the strength and conditioning world and going okay a lot of the stuff is getting really cutesy yeah on all the balance stuff all the everything's proprioceptive and some stuff got kind of hokey at at some point people like nuanced their practices yeah on these strictly neurological things like if you can balance then you can throw a football 70 meters on the dime it's like well okay not necessarily right and so and then the other side of the market just kind of came in and said okay we're going to just kick people's asses and see how much strength they have, see what kind of stamina they have, and see if they can move through a full range of motion and then hit them hard and just create a value system based on that. And so we've got disparate ends of what people think is right.

As it turns out, you need a little bit of both to keep that whole thing balanced. I would love to hear, what was your training like when you first came back, and then what's it like now? You know, like Kenny touched on, I just have this natural ability to put a heavy backpack on and go for 12 miles or whatever if I need to. But it was that explosive strength I didn't really have. I didn't really have any lungs, really. I mean, they were there, just not as what they are now.

They just didn't function to move air in and out. Yeah, exactly. They were just like little wispy paper bags. I'd kind of just completely just let things go. You were on one end of the training spectrum. 100%. That was it. Yeah, except with that good foundation of the kind of endurance kind of activities.

So was it three days a week, one day a week? Was it squatting? Was it body weight? What was it? A little more detail. We had to start mostly body weight before weighting because the sort of core to extremity violations were happening. So a pelvis it was rotating all over the place once the knee flexion and hip flexion started so the first phase was

you know just develop some some ability to to handle higher velocity body weight movements and then start loading and then start decreasing the time domains so there are longer pieces at the beginning just to sort of develop a little bit of conditioning and enough sort of myelin mapping. I got to get this body moving and the motor patterns to sort of function correctly. Very basic movement patterns. And then we just started adding complexity and velocity

at kind of specific intervals. Like every month we try to advance things how hard were those first uh 10 15 20 workouts i mean it was hard but it wasn't it wasn't hard enough to make me go screw this i'm never coming back yeah he was put i mean he was yakking and coming back yeah yeah but it was like he's gotta he's gotta he's gonna grind mentality like he's he's okay to hurt like like a lot of people will suffer and they go fucking them out yeah they were they were something that was reasonable for you at the time yeah i mean it was i mean kenny is an amazing ability to program that is something that i you know i've never really encountered with personal

trainers like kenny he knows exactly the sweet spot as far as how to, you know, program a training session. And even just for the, you know, the gym in general, like, you know, it's funny. I have friends who, you know, dip their toes in CrossFit and they're like, oh, I just didn't like this. I didn't like that. I mean, I've always thought the programming here at CFLA has been outstanding and in very understanding of, you know, the patrons of the gym. It's really awesome. You know, I have friends who've got terrible experiences in gyms that are known for being fantastic gyms because they were coming in on the ground floor and they just didn't know how to properly scale for these beginners.

You know, this beginner friend of mine and he ended up getting really you know turned off and it's you know and i i have not seen anything close to that at this gym and it's awesome um even from you know when i first started coming to classes after you know doing one-on-ones for a while kind of that was more for confidence i was like i need confidence back up because I wasn't really. One of our big wins was when Jack transitioned into classes, and then we had like a gnarly glycolytic test. We brought in true form runners and thrusters.

Oh, wow. The best was the salt bike shuttle burpees. It was one of those things where I'm really keen. I know exactly what he can do on a rower. I know what he can do on a row. And all these other things, the weight. And then we got the assault bikes, and I put them on. And I looked over at the numbers.

I'm like, what the fuck is going on right now? And he's got this uncanny ability. He can go with big guys on the assault bike. I'm like, what's going on right now? And he just grinds, and his hair's going all over the place. I'm like what's going on right now and he just grinds and his hair's going all over the place i'm like okay uh so it's a little bit statistically it doesn't quite compare to some of the other things but he is a freak on the on the assault bike wow i'm impressed yeah it was my my very good friend but he's a retired special forces medic and you know i mean especially he was a 18 special forces guy i mean

like you know tip of the spear kind of guy and that's an understatement by the way he also he's a 600 pound deadlifter who can run a 5k in 18 minutes i mean there's no shortage of fitness for this guy but he's gonna kill me for saying this story but he'd never done a crossfit workout and i was like dude he was LA. He was staying with me. I was like, we're going to go. We're going to go work out with Kenny. You'll love Kenny or whatever. So we go and it was an assault bike workout and we're just flying.

We're just really crushing it. And he's getting super competitive and he's getting fired up. And so is his wife. But this is after you kicked his ass off of some balance stuff. Yeah. Just some rotational balance with a med ball. And midway through the workout, he just runs upstairs and just – I think his body was just like, bah!

And he just evacuated every – he just could not hang. I was laughing my ass off. And then he comes down. He's like, I need to get an assault bike. He's like, it will not beat me. It always wins. It always me. It always wins. It always wins. It always wins.

So it's a combination of a balance-oriented workout with work capacity on the tail end of it. And so it was great to have this tip-of-the-spear human come in and sort of have Jack, who looks very average, kind of give it to him. And plus they're friends. So it's like one of those things like, Bert can kill people by winking.

Like legitimately. And, you know, Jack just kind of took it to him that day. It was kind of fun. Take that Bert, come back. Right. Should we take a little break? Yeah.

Recently, while I was in London, I came across a colleague, Michael Price, who owns Perpetua. And I want to take a moment to thank our now sponsor, Perpetua Fitness. Well, thanks for the warm welcome. It's a privilege to be on the show and to be a main sponsor for The Body of Knowledge. Michael, how long have you been open in London? We opened in 2011. As Perpetua? No, we originally opened as CrossFit South London,

but we wanted to offer more in terms of a hybrid facility and give it our own sort of flavor. And so we evolved and we felt like the brand needed to evolve at the same time. I've tried to create an experience that offers a huge amount of value. And value for me is a place where you come and you feel like you can grow, you know, mentally, physically, and spiritually. Michael, you've got two gyms, one in London, one in Dublin, and you've got some social media. Where are the gyms? Where can people find this awesome experience? And... Where are you? Where do I find you? you yeah it's a bit nosy isn't it it's time to shut this thing down lads i've got no more information for you

you know what i mean one of the interesting things uh about you jack we've talked about this through our sessions and through our friendship you have an interesting background, and I'm sure that most of our people listening are going to be aware that you're Ozzy Osbourne's son. Yes. You were a reality star growing up. So some of the things that you're going to get exposed to may be very normal for some kids, and then you might get a little extra gravy as it goes, just by the nature of that. But you've also managed to create this sort of lifestyle physically

where you're handling your MS very well, but then there's a behavioral shift that you've taken some pretty big responsibility for. For sure, yeah. I think that's one of the things that is really interesting specifically to you, but then broadly, because that's one of the things that we're looking to do with the show. Like it really is about starting to understand some of these things, but with your behavioral shifts over the last decade, can you talk a little bit about um getting sober yeah for sure so i uh i got sober uh april 21st 2003 at the ripe old age of 17 wow what yeah holy cow uh if you notice that's 421

i could not get sober on 420 i was like like, nope, we'll not give you one last 420. Fair enough. So, yeah, I mean, for me, at the time, I got sober for two reasons. One, to get my parents off my back. And two, because I really did think that I probably wasn't going to make it through the summer. Because the extent at because I was at the extent of which I was abusing drugs and alcohol um so I uh went into treatment and my whole plan was oh I'll dry out for like 60 days and then I'll just smoke pot and drink booze um

and I had a kind of a conscious shift um largely based on a bet from a counselor um she you know i kind of was doing the typical like teenager and rehab thing and i've got this all figured out but you guys don't understand and i know better and yeah um uh she basically looked at me and said listen if you stay sober for a year and you're still totally miserable, I will buy you however much alcohol drugs you want, but you have to do all the recommended work. And I was like, all right, you're on. Because I function really well with tasks, long-term goals. And it's actually a lot of why we train. I like to train for something. I don't like to train just to be like, I'm Beachbody guy. Because, well, I'm never going to be Beachbody guy. It's just not. I'm more baby fur seal guy.

So I took on the challenge, and it's funny. I'm going to jump around a bit, but I just, on Kenny's recommendation, I finished a book called Tribe by Sebastian Junger. Is it Junger? Junger. Junger. In it, he basically presents this theory that the reason why there's so much kind of mental health problems and, you know, a real rift in our kind of societal structure is because we've moved away from a tribal structure.

And he lays out all these benefits of a tribe. And in reading this, I totally had the realization that the reason why 12-step recovery had worked so well for me was because it was a tribe. I integrated myself with a group of guys who were similar age, similar situation, and we all followed the same rules. We all dove into recovery headfirst and it became our primary focus, much like a tribe works. And, you know, it's something that obviously

I'm not cured of, you know, addiction still rears itself in various ways in my life, whether it's kind of compulsive spending or, you know, things that I have to kind of put into check. But those two reasons initially why I got sober quickly transformed to being multiple reasons why I chose to stay sober. And one of them was I didn't really want to be like a lot of the people I had grown up with and around in the mean streets of Beverly Hills who I'd seen kind of, you know, full victim to abundance.

Yeah. There's a great deal of abundance and access in this town and it really can corrupt youth. Before we get too far off of it, can you talk about the challenge from the counselor? Because there's a thing that I've implemented in my life, which is a finite window of temptation. So if I really want something sweet, I'll feel it and I'll set a timer for make up a number 10 minutes. And I tell myself if in 10 minutes I feel the same, then I'm going to eat the ice cream.

But if in 10 minutes I'm okay, then I don't do it. And it's, it's cut the, the instance of doing the thing at least in half. And it sounds similar to the, okay, if in a year you feel totally miserable,

then, then by all means drink and do drugs. Yeah. And it, and it, at that point though, all that is, is condensing, uh, the concept of a day at a time

you know which is the one of the crucial you know the moment you walk into any 12-step recovery establishment whatever it's plastered everywhere because when you really properly digest that concept you go okay cool well day's 24 hours that's a long time for you know people going into recovery very early on who are used to consuming as many mind-altering substances they can get their hands on so then go all right just do 12 hours at a time yeah can't do that six hours can't do that three you know i've worked with people in in recovery who have literally an hour at a time. They were just like, I just need to get through this meeting.

I just need to get through dinner. I just need to get to bed because they're in such, you know, and they just set that short-term goal, you know, of like, hey, 10 minutes, 10 minutes and I'll see how I feel about the cupcake. Yeah. It's the same, you know.

So it could be also, I just got to work out today. Yeah. Just got to get a workout today. Exactly. Or I'm just going to not eat dessert tonight. That's all I'm doing. Tomorrow we'll figure it out again.

We'll start here. With Kenny and I, when we started working together, it was like I went, well, I'll just buy it. For me, I was like, okay, I can do one. But once again, I was like, let me buy the 20 package. Let me see how I can do it. Then I was like figuring, I was like, that's only a few weeks. Let's see what happens.

And it's kind of I very much subscribe to that short-term goal, but I need it to build towards a long-term goal. That's just the way I work. Can you talk a little bit about balancing long-term expectations with the short-term wins and losses? I think a lot of people who are starting, it's I'm going to get healthy now. And then any minor setback is devastating and they give up the whole thing. How did you figure out how to really enjoy those short-term wins and not let the losses completely derail you?

For sure. For me, it was always based on training for a goal so when i got in really good shape when i was like 19 i was training because i wanted to climb el cap in yosemite oh so i trained for like a year solid and it was like you know tons of climbing tons of running and you know i lost like 40 or 50 pounds climbed el cap it's great and then i started doing a ton of other extreme sports but i wasn't really training i was just doing and then getting diagnosed my what i had to train for was i'm gonna be 30 soon and i and i have this theory of kind of where you're at at 30 is kind of you know give or take 10 15 it's kind of where you're going to be until you die. At 30, the concrete solidifies.

And I was like, I need to call Kenny. I'm nearly 30 and I need to really lock this down. So I need these long-term goals to put the bricks in the wall for. So within that, do you consciously identify those bigger behavioral shifts? And are you aware of them? I'm aware of them because I've seen it. Like I didn't have that abundance necessarily growing up and I'm in a town that has it. And I coach a bunch of people, trained a bunch of people that have had that.

And again, I just, I don't see very often people that can apply that willingness to actually change the trajectory in a very significant, meaningful way. I think for me, the clear, simple thing is there are certain people I look at and go, I want what that guy has. You know, not necessarily based on possessions, but like, you know, mentally, spiritually, physically, you know, whatever an attribute of someone I but like you know mentally spiritually physically like you know whatever an attribute of someone i go you know what i dig that component how did he learn that how did he how did he obtain that what what's the and then i look at people who uh mid 30s you know children of whatever celebrity who are still getting you know fucked up and living off their parents and i'm like i don't want that that is that is nothing to there's no achievements there there's nothing to be proud of with that i like good healthy people so i've always been gravitated

towards people with um amazing attributes can you identify when those qualities and those psychological qualities start to drift in? And is there a conscious awareness of like, okay, that's that side of me that's in there that I've worked hard to sort of change, but can you see it like a cloud? Can you see it coming? And can you make an adjustment when you see it? I don't want to, you know, alienate listeners when I say this, but a huge part of that is this kind of, they talk about it a great deal

in recovery of the spiritual awakening. You know, and it very much kind of, you have, you know, there are these times where I was like, I feel different. I feel like, wait a second, like, you know, the veil's been pulled back

and I feel like I can see things more clearly now and I can understand things. I can understand the goals I want to set for myself now a little bit better. And, you know, whether that's just time off drugs and you're allowing your mind to clear. Right. But, you know, the best way to describe it would be some kind of mind, body, spirit awakening of like, this is what I want. There's a Sanskrit term called Kriya, which translated means spiritual surrender. One of the things that I love in the sort of business that we have is that there's something

about intensity or working out very hard that can get people to that space if you dose it intelligently and correctly on the back side of that is and and through that it's like a conduit to growth do you find that at any point not just in you know some of our training sessions but in you were just describing some of the business stuff do you find that in relational stuff at home? Absolutely. A hundred percent. You know, I, I don't think, I don't, it's funny. Like I don't, I don't think anything, I don't think I'm unique in any way because I, I like to, I'm inspired by so many people. And so how can you really be unique if you're inspired by people? You're essentially pulling bits of other people.

And so my relationship stuff at home is, you know, hugely based on experiences I did or didn't have growing up. You know, that's kind of how I choose to raise my kids. You know, both parents, you know, worked full time and they were gone a lot. And I was, you know, had, you know, raised a lot with nannies and this and that. Although there was amazing benefits of having parents that worked a lot and, you know, and we were, you know, never wanted for anything. And I got to travel the world numerous times before I even turned 20.

Seen things, done things, amazing things at a really young age. But there was still that lack of structure, which I don't care who you are. Kids thrive in structure to a degree. Now, too much structure probably becomes a little detrimental when they start getting stressed out and cortisol starts going through the roof. Right, right. But I'm very structured at home with my kids. And, you know, there's a routine and there's things like that. Certainly some things in your life were much easier because of your celebrity status.

For sure, yeah. But at the same time, that makes a lot of... Dinner reservations are awesome. Right? Opportunity, like all these things, right? For sure, yeah. But a ton of these things make it even more difficult. Yeah.

Now you've got the embarrassment factor, which is through the roof when you do something stupid or when you can't handle addiction or obesity. These things are now amplified so making those decisions to first get started are probably more difficult for you because everyone's looking and laughing and pointing for sure yeah at you and you mentioned a second ago the spiritual practice was helpful can you go into that a little bit more and is how is your exercise a part of that or is it not or is entirely do you have things outside

of that you don't have to give me details you know for me i i look at my exercises like a my daily meditation yeah you know whether it's surfing climbing going coming to the gym i find a great deal of kind of connection to like mind, body, spirit when I am doing something physically active. I don't know how to properly articulate it other than it just I feel fulfilled when I do it. Has it always been like that or is that recent? I think it's been a lot more recent that I've been using it as a tool for that. You know, I used to when when I would, when I was climbing a lot more, it was, oh, I just like climbing, you know, and I would, but it does

force you to be incredibly present. If there's ever a sport where you cannot let your mind drift, it's climbing. You have to be so focused and so in the moment and constantly aware of, did I put that piece of gear in right?'s above me what's below me where's where's the next hold what's you know you have to really you can never be more than two or three movements ahead of yourself so it's really awesome uh for that so listen we we covered a bunch of things today and everything from auto immunity uh ms uh getting over addiction, putting healthy habits into one's life. I think some of the big lessons, Andy, that you gave us too is largely about disuse or not using your body. I think fundamentally, if you had listened to episode one and then putting that together with

what you kind of described today, one of the things that we can walk away with is if we don't use it, we will lose it. And that's a fundamental principle that we've heard before, but now we can corroborate that with deep science. Yeah, and that Jack's not special in the sense that – I mean, you're special, Jack. My mom thinks so. But you're not in the sense that you're dealing with the same problems the rest of us are going to deal with if we fall into those same patterns. So we can't have this concept in our brain that, well, I don't have that disease. I don't have to worry about that. We all have this disease called aging.

Yeah. And we have to battle it now, in your case, by at 30 or at 70. Josh, you had a famous, an amazing quote we talked about the other day or something like, what's continually going through your head about why you're exercising? Do you remember that?

Oh, yeah. I'm working out so the 90-year-old me doesn't fall down. Right? Doesn't want to fall down. That's amazing. But to that,

there are clients at CFLA who have, I've seen over the last two years, I mean, they're in their 60s and 70s, had strokes, who are just older people, and they come in barely able to bend over and pick up a shoe to now doing wall balls and rowing and doing the most amazing stuff because they're putting their body to use. And you just have to get started. The details don't necessarily matter. It doesn't matter.

It's just start something, anything. But that is something that charges. I know you, Andy, and it certainly charges me when I'm looking at the health of our American population. I'm gravely concerned about our habitual practices that are leading us to greater pathologies. And one of the things that we learned today is, yes, he is well-resourced with the last name being Osborne, so he can fly to Germany and get stem cells and afford a trainer like me,

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But that isn't necessarily requisite to have all that. Squatting, throwing a tennis ball and kicking a soccer ball can be a great who have accomplished far greater things that i have you know in these two and a half years with far less resources like it is totally attainable you just have to go out and do it ultimately but to that point you know you know i know we're wrapping up but we were talking about this the other day you know especially now not to get totally into a weird landscape with the conversation but you know now there's so much we see on TV about, oh, this group is trying to kill us, and there's this you're going to die from, and terrorism, da-da-da-da-da.

I'm sorry, but 600,000 people in America will die of heart disease this year. 500,000 people will die of cancer this year. There are hundreds and thousands of people who will get diagnosed with an autoimmune disease this year. You know, there are hundreds and thousands of people who will get diagnosed with an autoimmune disease this year. The thing that I find so frustrating living in the time that we live in now, we have so many resources to combat the greatest threat to, you know, ourselves, but yet we're more concerned about, you know, some person in a distant land potentially, you know, doing bad things to a few of us it's like come on like we when will that awakening happening where we go wait a second like

the millions of people are going to die from stuff they can absolutely avoid with just 10 percent of effort you know it's funny i would have liked to have closed saying what you just said that is the charge of the show. And that is what we are after. Long-term, big picture stuff is conquering that sort of gigantic health crisis that you described. And we're on it. It's the context, right?

This is physicality, but wrapped in a much, much bigger context, like we talked about in the previous episode. Yeah. Right on. Well, thank you, Jack. Where can people find you on the Instagram, on websites, or any of the things that you'd like us to go find you on?

At Jack Osborne across the board, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, just at Jack Osborne. He's also got a fantastic and very fun TV show going on right now called Jack and Ozzy's World Detour. It is on – That's on the History Channel. And then I also have an MS awareness website called You Don't Know Jack About MS.

Oh, cool. And so there's a ton of stuff on there. It's kind of easy to digest info and tips and all sorts of information about living with multiple sclerosis. For Andy Galpin, I'm Kenny Kane, thanking Jacques Osborne for joining us on The Body of Knowledge. Talk to you next week. Mic drop.