Barbell Shrugged - Build Muscle Faster with High Velocity Eccentrics w/ Alex Koch, Anders Varner, Doug Larson, and Coach Travis Mash Barbell Shrugged #598

Episode Date: July 28, 2021

Alexander J. Koch, Ph.D., CSCS joined Lenoir-Rhyne University in Fall 2011. He is the program coordinator for Exercise Science. Dr. Koch earned his BS (1995) and MS (1997) from Appalachian State University. in 2000, he also earned his Ph.D. from the University of Kansas. His research interests include strength training, exercise and immune function, and sports nutrition.   Dr. Koch is a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist through the National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA) and a National Weightlifting coach through USA Weightlifting. Outside of academia, Dr. Koch is heavily involved with the sport of weightlifting, coaching and instructing as a member of USA Weightlifting’s coaching education program.   In this Episode of Barbell Shrugged:   Benefits of high velocity eccentrics  Why eccentrics are so important for strength Eccentrics and building muscle Increasing speed and power through eccentrics Why eccentrics are neglected in training   Anders Varner on Instagram   Doug Larson on Instagram   Coach Travis Mash on Instagram   ————————————————   Diesel Dad Mentorship Application: https://bit.ly/DDMentorshipApp   Diesel Dad Training Programs: http://barbellshrugged.com/dieseldad   Training Programs to Build Muscle: https://bit.ly/34zcGVw   Nutrition Programs to Lose Fat and Build Muscle: https://bit.ly/3eiW8FF   Nutrition and Training Bundles to Save 67%: https://bit.ly/2yaxQxa   Please Support Our Sponsors   Organifi - Save 20% using code: “Shrugged” at organifi.com/shrugged   BiOptimizers Probitotics - Save 10% at bioptimizers.com/shrugged   Garage Gym Equipment and Accessories: https://prxperformance.com/discount/BBS5OFF Save 5% using the coupon code “BBS5OFF”

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Friends, let's get into the show. Welcome to Barbell Shrug. I'm Andrew Barger. Glad to be here. Doug Larson, Coach Travis Vash, Dr. Alex Cook from Lenore Ryan University. Teo Barbell Shrugger. We'll be talking about high-velocity eccentrics. But before we get into that, you are the brain behind two of the biggest

influencers in all of social media. This is like, you have to, you should almost be leaving exercise science and entering into the world of how to present ideas on social media. Dr. Aaron Horschig is an ex-student of yours and a current student of yours, not soon to be, Dr. Travis Mass, Dr. Aaron Horschig is an ex-student of yours and a current student of yours, not soon to be Dr. Travis Mash, Dr. Coach Travis Mash. Definitely not soon to be, but like someday. He goes by so quick. But the lineage of your brain has reached, I mean, talking millions and millions of humans now. I know. It's pretty amazing.

And, too, it's funny because, you know, both, you know, Travis and Aaron are so good at social media and I suck at it. I just, you know, it's not my thing. It's because you don't do it. Exactly.

And I don't want to. You know what? You should, you should call up Aaron every time. Just be like, that's plagiarizing, dude.

You took that right out of my book. That's mine. I would take it plenty. Aaron is an empty vessel, essentially, and I just poured everything into him. And I was like, you know, I just forged plenty. Aaron was an empty vessel, essentially, and I just poured everything into him. And I was like, you know, I just forged him.

Yeah, Aaron's so cool how Aaron has, you know, because I knew him when he was like 18 and, you know, seeing him grow up and, you know, get all mature. And, you know, he's grown up a bunch. He's done. He's so successful. He puts out so much content and it's so good. Yeah. Really kind of cool to see. I think the people give him a hard time.

How famous he is and how worldwide he is because I actually collaborate and correspond a lot with a group of researchers in Brazil, which I did sort of fall into that in a funny way, but we write a lot of papers. How did you fall into that? Yeah, I want to hear about this. How I fell into that is I did a student's like projects um with actually

jerry may you um yeah and david may you who's now david may you md phd very very smart guy um but while he was an undergraduate student he did a student research project with me and i mean as you could probably imagine a very smart kid he he's not a kid anymore i guess he's like 35 you know he was very smart man like when he was 20 um anymore. I guess he's like 35. You know, he was very smart. And like when he was 20. It was very good. We got it published. So as an undergraduate student, he actually had a research article published where he was in general strength and conditioning research, which is kind of a big worldwide. Most kids don't have that when they're undergrads. But because of his work, folks in Brazil were following up,

like doing a study similar to that. So they actually reached out to me to collaborate. And that actually started a whole relationship with Marco Machado, who I got to talk to our seminar class. Remember, this awesome guy, and he is so prolific and Marco and Rafael Pereira and several other Brazilian researchers I've worked with, but they follow SWAT University on Instagram. So it's big in South America too, which is really cool. Do you ever go down there? I want to go down there. I was actually trying to set up a study abroad, but then, you know, COVID and, you know, two worst countries in the world in terms of COVID response are the United States and Brazil. You were smashed down there. I did a seminar down there and I had a translator with me and we had

a packed, the place was packed and I have never been around a group of people that were just so fired up to learn. It was like something about sports in that country. I feel like just fanatical. And as soon as I started coaching CrossFit to them or like explain going on that they were doing on a regular basis and how to like make it better and like actually organize their thoughts a little bit. It was one of the coolest three day like experiences ever. They were just fanatical about everything. I'm envious i would love to go down there uh it looks beautiful in pictures and everybody who i've met from brazil is like the nicest person they're all incredibly you know and you said like the the energy the

enthusiasm i mean marco who i is the one i collaborate with the most he is a machine he just you know pranks out so much research uh you know i don't know how he does it but and the fact that you know i mean he's what i practice portuguese every day but uh you know you really my portuguese is not good my portuguese was learning how to do the salsa dancing on the sunday night after that's what i've been learning after the seminar phenomenal is it is it's also we don also presenting. We don't need words. We don't need words here. Let's just do this. This is better.

Dr. Cook, so wasn't that in the seminar class, wasn't the hypertrophy study that you presented, wasn't it done with those guys? It was, yeah. It was done with a whole group of them. So, again, you know, because, I mean, you know, Lenore Ryan, I love it, but it's, you know, we're a small college. We're, we're, you know, a teaching college and our research.

So, you know, that's always been the environment I've worked in. I have a lab, but you know, I don't do like, you know, muscle hypertrophy work. I don't do cell prep stuff. I don't do, you know, biopsy analysis. I did a little bit of that, like in grad school, but you know, I've never had the facilities to do any of that, you know, any molecular biology really. My lab has a sink. That's basically it, you know, don't even have a microscope. You know, I have like a metabolic card to have, you know, the in-body, you know, the force plates and all that.

I have an electrocardiogram, I have stuff like that, but don't have any of the stuff to do microscopic work. So my main thing now is, you know, I, I do review studies. I look at the research that other people have done. And like with the Brazilian folks, you know, I, my Portuguese isn't very good, but you know, I'm living the privilege of pretty much every scientific journal is in English. So I help them with the data. You know, I clean it up. Yeah.

I don't, I run some stats, you know, I have some ideas about how to do the research designs too and stuff like Oh, yeah. learning portuguese because i want to be able to talk to marco uh in his language and you know he's done so much to speak english i want to kind of meet him halfway um just an appreciation for that and i really want to visit there i'm hoping to be able to you know stay there for a bit it's so much easier to learn a foreign language when you're young like i know yeah drew is working with all of our children in you know mainly french and Spanish, but like Magnolia, the two-year-old is picking it up so quickly. Like, you know, yeah, I see. I'll, I'll leave and Magnolia will be au revoir. And I'm like, I don't know. Yeah. That's so cool. But yeah. And the other thing is like from a personal benefit, you know,

as in my middle years I know practicing a foreign language is kind of, it's one of those things that helps you know prevent against dementia so and then my mom had that um and she passed in her like early 70s basically she passed 74 so um you know i hope i hope i take after my dad he's still uh going strong at 83 but um so we'll see i hope you do too yeah thank you so big picture really all i know about you that is that you're a professor in exercise physiology exercise science one of travis's professors and he talks very highly about you but what's your sporting background and or your educational background how'd you get here oh yeah well uh see essentially uh very involved in the

sport of weightlifting uh you know and again uh i'm an old timer like travis you know an old timer you know not compared to some of the folks in the sport um but i got into weightlifting in the 90s and i got into weightlifting in the 90s i a graduate student in exercise science at appalachian state um there's so many people that have come out of there yeah and that's you know largely due to really mike stone, who now is at East Tennessee and, you know, very prolific and probably, you know,

like one of the biggest names in strength research in the world. You know, very, you're interesting and cool guy. Really enjoyed him as a professor. And through that, and again, in those days,

weightlifting, you know, I always say jokingly, you know, the ancient times BC before CrossFit, because no weightlifting, you know, weightlifting, I always say joke is the ancient times BC before CrossFit, because no weightlifting, you know, weightlifting, there were no bumper plates, no gyms have that sort of stuff. In North Carolina, I competed in 96. And my first weightlifting meet in the one and only meet that was held in the state that year, that was the Tar Heel Open in Oxford, North Carolina in 1996.

And I did that as a grad student. That was my first meet. I wanted to try it out because Stone was kind enough to coach me. And, again, this is back in the day. You know, I was coached as a graduate student, but I coached as good as Mike Stone for free because nobody could charge money. And I coached for free and waited for myself. I became a coach in 1996.

Same class, USAW – or actually USWF. It was Weightlifting Federation back then. That's right, Lynn Jones. Lynn Jones, 1996. And, you know, we became club coaches then. I coached people for free until basically like 2011. And, you know, I was a pretty good coach. I coached, you know, Travis was telling me, like sort of breaking down

like how much money Aaron must be making now with his Instagram. And I was thinking like, shit, man, I coached him for four years for free. It spread a little bit of that out. You know, I got students. One percent. I have a few clients now that I coach,

you know, and I've charged a little bit. And I basically kind of cover my student loan payment every month. And then in the year 2034, when that sucker's paid off, I have a little mad money. 2034. It gets closer every day. Yeah.

So you also coached a world team member. I did, yeah. So Zach Schlunder, two-time world team member, 2007, 2011. He got silver medal a couple of times at the national championships, won national collegiates, had a national collegiate record for a little while. And I think snatched in total, maybe clean and jerk too. Then, you know, but Zach, and he's coaches weightlifting to this day.

He's an awesome guy, but I got to coach him from his freshman year, um, at Truman state university, which is where I first taught. And that's where I taught Aaron Horshig too. Um, and also like another sort of famous alum, uh, in sport is Ambrose Serrano. Who's like the head strength of Giddesheen coach at the Lake Placid training center. Um, or the Olympic training center, Lake Placid. So he worked with athletes, but Amose and aaron were in the same class

they were actually uh you know close buds um did you have coached some really fun time because i was coaching a weightlifting club there the truman state iron dogs um you know again it's just something i did for love of the sport uh you know i had a like a we had a racquetball court that you know i asked could i build a platform in there so they said okay yeah you can because it wasn't used really it was like storage so i built two because they gave me permission for one and then it's like five um and then i had a really good team that grew a lot and a lot of that was thanks to zach because he's a very you know outgoing and friendly personality as a student he bought a lot of students in um to the club and he really was a as well as being a really proficient lifter um which

by like his senior year he meddled at the national championships which is super cool that was cool his junior year he qualified to that for the senior nationals he won the b session and his senior year he got on the medal standings like yeah casey bergner donnie shankle and zach schlunder yeah Yeah. That's the lineup. Why would somebody with your passion and desire to coach weightlifting go back into academia and teach energy systems? That sounds so boring. I think it's fascinating. Me too.

Easy, Anders. I mean, compared to being in the gym and lifting and being around all the people. Travis can probably answer that because that's where Travis wants to get there. And essentially, you know, the hours are better. Right. Seriously, coaching, I love it, but it's exhausting. You know, when I was in my 20s and 30s, you know you know I was very happy to do that now I sort of you know

I keep a handle on it just like you know I sort of keep my toe in it basically yeah athletes really enjoy it but you know the work that I used to do when I was younger in my 20s where you know I'd be a college professor but also like coaching probably 20-30 hours a week just live in the gym yeah a lot of hours um and you know the gym owner gym owner life means you never see your kids yeah and you don't get paid as well as you should and like i think with my my pay actually uh zero uh noticing zero actually it's worse than zero because i was watching uh you might have seen like the show doomsday preppers one time right um doomsday preppers is a hilarious show it's about you know people are yeah they're hoarding food and well yeah you know fortifying their house with like

landmines and stuff like that because they think which is coming they always like break it down like at the end like how much they've spent to do that and when i was watching the show and i was like oh you know crap that's like what i've spent on weightlifting twice to national meets hotels all that stuff yeah for money it's like yeah okay i'm paying oh yeah it is a money pit yeah i paid my you know about when i was at uh masterly performance like i actually and i still there's two of them i still pay like pay them exactly yeah so it's insane it's like yeah being a being plus being a professor like you get to dedicate your whole life to like learning how to improve like other coaches that's i think it's the bigger play is like you know you're in the university setting you're always reading the

latest research and then you get to like you know carl smith or arnold and be like look man have you heard about this new study maybe you only have to squat once a week as opposed to like three times you know what i'm just using it as an have to squat once a week as opposed to like three times, you know, but I'm just using it as an example, but that's where I want to be. I want to, we're like right now we're developing this, you know, with a lot of lighting, this, you know, this data database that we're like building and like, you know, that is something that I can like now pass on to every coach in America.

So like, that's where I like. Really. Cause you know, I love the sport. To me, it's really sad what's happening at the Olympic level, but American athletes haven't been able to really compete internationally. People in the sport, even Americans in the

sport, are always putting our athletes down. I heard so many people online forums bas you know, just like bashing Shane Hammond back in the day and, you know, bashing Kendrick Ferris. And like, you know, those guys are amazing. They're amazing.

Against guys who were juiced and, you know. Right, all the juice. Drugs in a state-sponsored drug program. Yeah. You know, you wipe out the drugs and those guys would actually be winning. I guarantee you. I believe Kendrick Ferris' 2-11 clean and jerk would be a world record.

Look at Ilya. If they actually had real drug testing. Look how far Ilya has fallen now that he's under scrutiny. What killed me is, like, even before his fall, like when he did his tour of the U.S. and, like, teaching seminars in CrossFit when he was on the off cycle, he went from, you know, this jacked, like, 30 pounds. He looked like he weighed, like, 160, never touched a weight in his life.

You know, it looked like your paper boy, basically. He looked like somebody pulled a cork and he blew out like a balloon. I know. Yeah, exactly. That doesn't happen by, you know, like he didn't change his eating. And, you know, it doesn't happen. You lose 70 pounds of muscle like that. I think we're starting to see, like um on the international on the international level america now now that there's just a little bit

of testing now we're like one of the top three in the whole the whole world it's going to be you know us well obviously china's still number one i don't know what they're doing i just want to know china's had their their bands you've been breeding humans you don't have to worry about if you've been building humans in a test tube even better put all the strongest genes together it's better than the drugs you take after you've got a less optimal human you take north korea and then there's america now and so like yeah now we're seeing with a little bit of drug testing yeah we're either the best or one of the best you know teams the world. I have all the questions about hypertrophy. All right.

But I would love to know when someone walks into your class on day one and you start to talk about building muscle, where do you begin the conversation? In exercise, I'm talking about how muscle works and when it's made out and all that stuff. But when you're talking specifically about how you build muscle, how you get it bigger now, and actually this is kind of a cool thing because really, you know, the research on this was not evident when I was a college student, but essentially now we've discovered this enzyme called mTOR, the mechanistic

target of rapamycin, which you've probably probably heard of but that's really blown up you know just in the last 10-15 years we have the technology like the molecular biology is there to have identified that have identified this is really sort of the key trigger point and again you're going through I finished my PhD in 2000 there was no mention of that because it hadn't really been discovered yet so can you explain what mTOR actually is because we talk about it on the show and we've had plenty of people on but but we've never had someone actually lay out what it does. It's, you know, ATPase, which, you know, basically splits apart ATP so you have the energy to contract your muscle. But mTOR, what it really is very complex because it's part of a whole very intricate system where it regulates protein building in your muscle, protein synthesis. And it's sort of like the key hub, if you will.

So if you can increase mTOR's activity, you will build more protein in your muscle. And essentially that's the sort of key trigger that you switch on with training. It's responsive to mechanical tension that you place on muscles. So that's why it's mechanistic target. That actual mechanical tension translates into signaling to make the mTOR enzyme synthesize more proteins. And so you get, you know, more actins and myosins, which are built, you know the other like titan and stuff like that all the stuff that's actually making your muscle contract you build more of those units your muscles get bigger you get stronger um but that's the m4 essentially is this enzyme that is triggered by several things with exercise one of them is actually the exercise itself and the other thing is like nutritionally and hormonally there's some

things that you can like like testosterone, for instance, that basically how it builds bigger muscles is largely due to increasing mTOR stimulation. IGF-1, insulin-like growth factor 1, that acts on mTOR. B-minoacid leucine, that acts on mTOR. And mechanical tension. That's the only thing I can name. Oh, insulin, insulin, because insulin triggers insulin-like growth factor. So all those things kind of help switch on mTOR. And there's probably a lot more things, but it's a very hot area of research. Again, this is for, you know, people at the larger universities. Andy Galpin would be one, you know, really, you real muscle physiologists, you, you know, actually

look at the biopsy data, get single cell preps, analyze what's going on. And again, I'm at a small college where I don't have the opportunity to do that stuff. I read the work that those guys who actually get to do the wet work in the lab do. But that answers the question. Okay. Absolutely. When you when you lay that definition out, or when you're explaining that you talk about exercise, the exercise specific exercises, is there more, or are there more optimal exercises that are going to trigger these, these responses faster and more optimally? Yeah. And that's really what we're researching essentially. Um, you know, there's a lot of ways you can get hypertrophy. Um, but in terms of like optimal, um, you know, uh, kind of as I laid out

in the review article, I made Travis read and seminar, um, with my Brazilian friends and stuff. And, you know, there's a lot of, again, like Brad Schofield and stuff like that. They've done a lot of, you know, uh, work in the area, but, um, you know, essentially, you know, probably a stuff you kind of know what works, what makes you bigger? Well, you know, large muscle mass, multi-joint movements. That's really the main thing. So, you know, squat, bench, deadlift, power clean, those are going to help you build muscle more than like bicep curls, lateral raises, calf raises, things like that. You get essentially better whole body response,

maximum amount of force that's produced with those. There's actually a whole series of studies looking at isolation exercises like curls, like triceps extensions, and basically it concludes that there's not really any measurable benefit to them in terms of making you bigger or stronger, which is kind of funny when I think back to when I was a kid and how much, you know, time I spent doing curls and things like that. But, you know, if you want big arms, you know, bench presses, you know, pull-ups, those are going to really kind of bend over rows.

That's going to do more and more than, you know, your single arm bicep. That study only looked at single joint? Actually, it's more than one study. The author's name is Paolo Gentile, and he's done probably, honestly, around about a dozen studies in that area and essentially looks at the addition of the single joint exercise. He's looked at single joint exercises by themselves or single joint plus multi-joint

versus people who only did multi-joint. And that's really kind of, to me, the more interesting comparisons because that's a little more reasonable. Because there are studies that show, yeah, you can build muscle with single joint exercise. You can, but it's not going to be much. But the addition of single joint work

in addition to the multi-joint didn't produce any measurable benefits. Oh, that answers my question. Now, do I still do single joint stuff or like isolation exercises minimally personally that's mostly for like neural control stuff so i can be like you know uh blew out my left acl that's what excuse me left quad tendon uh left quad tendon i blew that out um 2019 i've come back from that but you know i still, you know, I do like step ups with the left leg, slowly eccentric with that, trying to build neural control. I do box squats too.

And that's going to be the more beneficial thing for making me stronger and build muscle back in the leg. But the neural control, injury prevention, I have my athletes do curl times, weightlifters, because we do so much extension, snatch and jerk. A lot of times if you don't build the biceps uh you get a little bit of elbow pain and because that's from that so you know but you know i'm talking like two sets of five curls it's not a huge time investment but it'll keep your elbows from hurting are they getting those results uh with the single joint isolation exercises just because there isn't enough of like a hormonal response probably there just isn't enough mechanical tension you know even so much hormonal response is probably just the amount of mechanical force.

Cause that's the other thing, like the hormonal response, like for individual exercise session, like how much you change the hormones in your bloodstream, that doesn't have an impact on muscle growth is kind of what's kind of going up very clearly. Yeah. So I'm actually super interested in this.

The, kind of point out very clearly yeah so i'm actually super interested in this the if i was to isolate a um if i was to isolate like a muscle group as large as your quads in which in order to actually even actually like do those exercise there has to be a lot of mechanical tension in mechanical tension and force produced because it's such a large muscle group. Are you saying that it's still just because it's an isolation single joint? What you're talking about is doing the leg extension.

You can do a decent amount of weight on that. It's going to be infinitely better than nothing, but if you compare what you can place on the force you can place on the leg extension versus what you do squatting, what you can place on the force you can place extension versus what you do squatting what you do deadlifting you do cleaning um it's kind of inconsequential uh you can use so much more mechanical force that's being translated to the muscle through those larger exercises where you move in a much heavier weight and probably

also uh we'll get into a little bit later but faster as well i think anecdotally all you have to do is just go to a world championships in weightlifting, and you'll see the biggest quads in the world versus like go to a bodybuilding, a drug-free bodybuilding show. If you go to that versus that, I mean, the quads are going to be comparable for sure. If not, weightlifters might arguably have the better one. Look at those old pictures of Piros or or look at luise zhang yeah their legs are huge like so how far away from say like the core five or six movements from rows squats deadlifts pull-ups bench press like how far away from those specific exercises do do we get away from actually seeing

some sort of return i like i i'm actually really surprised by like a leg extension returning very little uh of the benefit because i would i would in muscle groups that large like an rdl is not a deadlift yeah and it isolates your like the hip i wouldn't call that an isolation though i would ideally call it a hip hinge but i mean that's you're engaging large enough muscle mass it's as multi so it is to a degree yeah like gotcha right and that's you know and that's not like leg extensions are doing nothing for you it's just that if you did leg extensions and only leg extensions there's so many bodybuilders that need to listen to this right now. But, yeah, those guys are going to get the most benefit out of doing squatting,

out of deadlifting. And, you know, and that's, I don't think, any great surprise to, really, students of the game. You know, you look at who the best bodybuilders are. You know, Ronnie Coleman. He's strong as hell. He squats. He did all the other stuff too.

90% of what he got was the squats. What about if we were to do some sort of pre-exhaust where you're able to get total volume higher, even though the weight is going to be lower? Does that make a difference over just going and doing leg extensions if you were to go ahead like a set of questions like the pre-exhaust stuff uh you know in theory it seems like that could work uh but you know in practice is it absolutely necessary there's plenty of guys

who've gotten huge without um and i would argue you know i did pre-exhaustion myself back in my training so did i i experimented with with like two sort of the extremes. Because when I was in high school, I did like the Arnold Schwarzenegger plan. Because, you know, he was the guy. All the volume. Just crazy. I did the program in his Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding. So did I.

15, 10, 8, 6, 6. Sure. It would take three to four hours a day, six days a week. It was crazy. You know, that broke me down after about a year, year and a half. Get out that long. That's awesome.

Because I was 15. Seriously, I was 15 years old. The first time I maxed my bench press, 15, high school kid, freshman year, weighed 120 pounds, the same height I'm now. I'm 5'11", so I was a toothpick. Scanty. Bench press max was 85 pounds.

Awesome. But that was what I was – so I wasn't strong to be able to – In a way, do all the volume when you're that size. You just need training. Yeah, exactly. And I went from like 120 to 170 my sophomore year, so it worked for a little bit. But then I didn't see any improvement in strength,

and I started breaking down. So I went to menser uh did the heavy duty heavy intensity everything's pre-exhaust um but when i got strong on the isolation exercises i didn't see any strength improvement because like you know i i you know i could do like the stack about on the nautilus leg extension machine yeah and i was squatting afterwards like 135. Your legs are dead. Yeah. Yeah. And also when it comes to, I mean, now I'm getting back to how exciting energy systems

are. When you do that, see, you've already changed my mind. Now I love them. When you do that, you kind of, when you're doing the pre-exhaust stuff, you end up changing energy systems a lot due to the fact that just the sets are significantly longer. And you're trying to... A lot of phosphocreatine. So you have glycolysis for a little while, but glycolysis is going to last you about 30 seconds.

You're going to build up a lot of lactate. You're going to build up a lot of hydrogen ions. You're not going to be able to really push much so then when you go into your compound movement you know you do your squat after you do your leg extension you're kind of running on fumes yeah i would argue that your your quality sets are not is going to be as high so like i feel like pre-exhaustion would not be a good idea because instead of doing like you know five sets of five you can only do two to three sets of five and so of the quality it didn't work for me in terms of helping me get bigger and again that's just a personal anecdote it's not scientific at all and to my knowledge i

haven't really seen much in the way of research on pre-exhaust because uh you know i if it's out there i haven't looked for it for it. I kind of concluded in based on my own personal history that is not worth investigating. But maybe I could look up that up and, you know, get back to you. But I don't, you know, again, it depends who are you to accomplish if you're a strength athlete, you know, this pre exhaust matter to you, not at all. If you're a bodybuilder, it could, I guess one thing I learned from the, you know, duties pre-exhaust matter to you? Not at all. If you're a bodybuilder, it could. I guess one thing I learned from the, you know, duties thing is that you can get really strong on isolation exercises. And if you're a bodybuilder, might be meaningful to you if you're at a higher

level. But, you know, I never got to that level. I was a skinny dude trying to get big. So it would be more meaningful for me to get my squat from like 350 to 400 versus worrying about, you know, more definition in my quadriceps or something like that. Yeah. Are the goals? Nobody cares. Yeah. Are the goals of getting bigger and stronger actually the same? Kind of.

I mean, you know, for strength athletes, especially depends, are you weight class limited? You know, if you're weight class limited, you want to get as strong as you can for your size without adding a bunch of exercise. So that's what, you know, for us in coaching weightlifting, depending on who we're working with and where they're at, you know, beginners, I want to get them both big and strong and they'll sort of naturally settle out, I think, at their weight class. Because you can't, you know, get as strong as you can without adding muscle but right you're talking about somebody's been in the game for a while and after you know like a good five years of training and they're probably you know they've they probably found that sweets but depending how old they are you know if you're talking about yeah i'm talking about somebody in their mid-20s by your mid-20s

you probably you know your weight class um and you know that's where you really need to maximize strength without trying to gain a whole bunch of extra weight um whereas you know teenager hell yeah uh your weight class you know you you want to basically the next one what about sarcoplasmic versus like myofibular where the body um you know that was kind of a buzzword from like Mel Siff, Super Training. Yeah. I always used to joke that like I saw, you know, Mel Siff was a really, it's how they passed, but really entertaining speaker. But his book Super Training to me, I don't know if you guys have read it,

but if you can read that cover to cover, my hat's off to you. Because I could just, it's sort of like it's kind of jumps around a lot and says a lot of things but not really i know adherence train of thought i feel felt but i you know he was the first one i saw mentioned that you know sarcoplasmic hypertrophy being the idea that you make the cells bigger because you're filling them with fluid um it's not a functional increase in strength, growing more of the sarcomeres, the contractile proteins, but that in a, you know, that's theoretical, but in research, I've never seen like a demonstration of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy versus true hypertrophy occurring. Hypertrophy is pretty much hypertrophy where you see the difference in

strength expression is, is really through neural activation of the muscle. That's where strength athletes because they train a higher percentage of one rep max, they can activate those fast-switch fibers in a functional way. Whereas you can, like there's studies that show equal growth by training at 80% one rep max, so like decent, sort of what would be commonly accepted as a stimulus to get bigger and stronger versus 30% one rep max repping to failure and equal muscle growth in both. You know, the 30% of failure would suck in my opinion. That would be torture.

Talking about like repping out 35, you know, 40 reps until you fail each workout. But they got, you know, volunteers to do that for a while and they did equal muscle, but the 80% group was the only group who got, they got a lot stronger. Uh, the 30% people didn't makes perfect sense to me because they didn't learn how to activate their muscles for maximum force production. Yeah. But my question would be like the people that did 30%, like was it their fast switch fibers growing or was it like Dr. Stone?

The study he just did, I read that where he's you know he was talking about that going to failure is going to be more of a type one you know fiber type versus like you know the we're focused on volume 80 being particular uh percentage is more fast switch fiber yeah and this i would tend to agree with that um you know the one the type two the fast twitch are going to have the greater potential for growth uh you can beat them more easily with the the higher intensity movement meaning they're going to be active right away because you need them to move the weight with repping like a lightweight to failure in theory you'll get into those fast twitch fibers as the slow twitch fibers get fatigued a little bit but

it's not going to be an optimal stimulus and And my, you know, from what I've read, basically my, my learned opinion is that it's not going to be an effective way to activate them. You know, for size, for one thing, I would totally buy that too. But, you know, there are measurable increases in size and muscle with light weights to failure. But the main thing is, you know, for functional strength, you're not going to be able to activate those in any sort of reasonable time frame because you know right in life what do you do this you know like 40 reps to failure you know like yeah these conversations usually you know change a tire or lift up something big off sorry uh these conversations are usually focused

on building muscle mass and getting bigger and getting stronger. But if you're a person who's, who's already has a lot of muscle mass, you're already a high level athlete or whatever it is, and you suffer an injury, is this not very good news that you can train at a very low intensity for higher reps and maintain the muscle mass that you've worked so hard to build as you recover from your back injury or whatever happens to be? That's an excellent point. And that's, you. That's where the advantage of being able to do reps with light weights, basically to failure or approaching failure, which again would be personally really uncomfortable for me, but you could do that to spare muscle mass.

The other route I would suggest is blood flow restrictions. Yes. That's been shown with light weights, even not to failure, basically that gives you really strong muscles to activate the m4 system really well. You can see improvements in muscle growth with that with very light weights. Again, I've been that 30% zone, but not going to failure. Have you done any of that? you've read the other people's study. You think maybe I should start doing that because, you know, with my quad tendon, I still kind of suck a little bit. And, you know, that would probably be a good day to work around that. I know a little bit. It burns like crazy.

He's doing that. And he says like he's, he does it for cardio. Essentially the idea is that you can get oxidative adaptations in your muscle with low intensity cardio. It's such an intensity that's not going to interfere with your ability to recover from your strength workouts oh gosh about blood flow restriction i don't like you know i wouldn't have to mimic what i came with a aaron gets all that stuff for free you know i'm quoting university so many blood restriction cards yeah seriously i'm gonna send this to him

with an ace bandage which is not gonna going to probably work very well. Right. The main downside there with blood flow restriction training is there's kind of only like a limited amount of muscle groups that you can effectively hit. Yeah, definitely. You can probably do calves and quads and hamstrings, biceps, triceps. Yeah, I mean, it's not optimal. And actually, like, there was a pretty recent study by, I think, Rochelle out of Brazil. And he found that comparing blood flow restrictions to, like, sort of traditional heavyweight, traditional heavyweight actually did better in terms of a little bit better hypertrophy,

a lot better in terms of strength, which you'd expect. But, you know, like you're talking about injured people. The original blood flow katsu training out of Japan, it was for frail elderly folks. So getting beyond athletics, just not dying early, loss of muscle mass and frailty that comes from that is a really big sign that you're on your way out, essentially. So anything you can do to preserve muscle mass, even if you gain muscle mass in your older age,

that's hugely helpful. Beyond being able to bench a lot look good with your shirt off and you know living longer is kind of you know really key so that's the population for blood flow restriction for you know like a healthy intact strength athlete bodybuilder uh yeah i don't think that would be your go-to but you know it's an option for if you're injured, for sure. Well, and sticking on that topic of being injured or having joint pain, with blood flow restriction, oftentimes you can achieve that higher level of hypertrophy with potentially lighter weights also.

Definitely, yeah. And that's a very light weight. You're talking like 20% when rep max is effective. And I don't see any pressing, you know, if you want to go heavy, I would not do blood flow restriction at all. To me, that's – I don't see any pressing. If you want to go heavy, I would not do blood flow restriction at all. To me, I don't see any upside to that. It's already getting your leg, basically. The risk-benefit ratio falls out of order with the heavier weight

once you add blood flow restriction. Do you know the physiological mechanism there? Blood flow restriction? Yeah. Basically, it's triggering the mTOR pathway um the exact thing i can't recall off the top of my head and i don't even know if they know but you are seeing essentially hypertrophy triggered um with a much lower threshold of mechanical tension you're also like uh you're seeing greater mitochondrial biogenesis because you're wanting the partial pressure of uh oxygen in those muscles po2 there we go yeah man but uh

that's you know a huge advantage because with you know low intensity like cycling or something like that with blood flow restriction you can see improvement changes your muscle to make it better adapt to using oxygen but you would in a you, without blood flow restriction, you'd have to train at like, you know, like 100% of your VOT max to see that sort of change. So it's an advantage for doing an easier workload endurance exercise as well. You know, and that might be if you see the role of accessory movements? Because if they're not really neurological pathways, movement patterns, and injury prevention, but very little hypertrophy and strength. Yeah, exactly. So many people are not going to enjoy it.

If you're training around an injury, if you are coming back from an injury, you want to essentially get a better motion control and a little extra strengthening of the muscles around an injured joint, that's useful. And again, addressing muscle imbalance issues. Like, you know, I was talking about curls for weightlifters. You know, I think that's really helpful for them to prevent elbow pain.

It's not something that, you know, you're never judged on your biceps. Yeah. Well, if that's the case, then how often should we be squatting? I mean, Travis Mash wants me to squat every day, but. I think it's's more than that is this something actually where like as when you're younger you should be doing more compound movements then as you get more experience and you get a little more wear and tear a little more joint pain you know past injuries keep showing up your knee always hurts whatever it is like you progressively over time start doing slightly less compound movements and more and more single joint movements just from a injury potentially you know uh single joint

movements were needed um it's very like you know on my personal you know i've had a tough last few years 2018 tore my bicep 2019 tore my quad tendon so that's going hard yeah yeah you know the bicep tendon i was spotting a guy on squats he just dumped 300 on me yeah definite party foul but you know uh it is what it is but uh came back from that my plate lifting meet uh from my return from that was when i tore the quad tendon snatching so snatching of all things i know that kind of relates to what we were originally going to talk about which is high-speed eccentrics. Let's talk about that. Let me ask you, before you do that.

We teased the end of the show at the beginning. There's two questions. Like velocity, obviously, the velocity of the rep. What about also with that compensatory acceleration, Dr. Squat, you should talk about every rep. You should try to push it as fast as you can. And now that we're using, we use velocity more and more now, like, it is a different stimulus. Like when someone does 75% five by five versus 75% five by five,

as fast as they possibly can, it's a totally different stimulus. So like, at least anecdotally, but like, what is your thought on that? Well, there's totally different stimulus. So like, um, at least anecdotally, but like, what is your thought on that? Well, uh, so there's two questions there. So like we're talking about compensatory acceleration, we're really talking about strength, strength, and to maximize neural recruitment, trying to, there's actually some really cool studies. You know, it's all goes for velocity specificity, which is, you know,

that's harder to measure is how fast you're moving, especially, you know, back in the older days like yeah but they didn't have the technology but a lot of the stuff they did was isokinetic where they use machines that essentially govern your speed of movement um but you know like one of the the coolest studies it was and i can't remember the author's name but they found that intention to move fast even when the isokodetic machine is set so you can't move fast but you're trying to move fast right that's a kinetic machine that actually got you stronger at faster velocities as well as the slower velocities and in general like velocity specificity

is true where if you train at a given speed you only get stronger at that speed for concentric muscle actions which is you know traditional your muscle shortening your lifting weights that's true for strength you have to adhere to velocity specificity so like you know, traditional, your muscle shortening, your lifting weights. That's true for strength. You have to adhere to velocity specificity. So, like, you know, as a weightlifting coach, I think, you know, what you're doing with velocity-based training is really good because doing a slow brine squat where it takes you, like, three seconds to stand up is going to have probably very little transfer over to your ability to clean.

Right. Because clean is a rapid ballistic movement. You're bounding out of them if you do it well and that's really what's going to set you up where you know uh with most cases you're not going to you know do the slow grind and then have anything left to jerk with um definitely for strength definitely to recruit your nervous system to to operate strong in the speeds that you wish to compete at that's where velocity specificity comes in now for muscle size velocity specificity or velocity effects you know we're talking about

lengthening contraction so like lowering yourself from the squat lowering the bench press lowering your press any of those things where your muscle is lengthening under tension those in general place more strain on your muscles so they're actually more tension stimulus for hypertrophy and getting muscle size than concentric so um and that's what there's several studies that show quite comparison they do concentric only training versus eccentric only training um and they found that eccentric in most cases tend to give a little bit better benefits um like a really kind of a good one was a study where they look at cycling, which, you know, traditional cycling has, you know, pretty small eccentric component,

but you can actually set up a eccentric cycle. So essentially it goes in reverse. And what you're doing is you're like trying to resist it. So it's like muscle under tension. And that produced a lot of hypertrophy that produced hypertrophy, whereas traditional cycling didn't. Wow. Eccentrics are important for building muscle and again it's probably all due to mechanical tension that's based on the muscle. Kind of go away from scientific research to meathead literature. Meathead's good. T Nation, Testosterone Nation. I remember a few years back they had an article from the late Glenn Penley it's still up there actually the title was too big

but essentially it was Glenn talking about how with his weight lifters that he's coaching they're having trouble keeping them in their weight class because they were growing a lot of muscle even though they aren't specifically doing bodybuilding exercises he actually had a lot of respect for Glenn as a coach.

He produced a lot, but he actually used sort of incorrect terminology because he described weightlifting as concentric only, moving not at all. Not at all. Catching clean. And my quad tendon could tell you it is a heavy eccentric. The catch phase is brutal. It's fast, and that's where eccentric actions

or lengthening actions, you experience the most force on your muscle, even though you might not be aware of it is if the movement speed is faster, the force on your muscles is higher eccentrically opposite of the relationship when you're lifting weights, you know, concentrically with max effort, the lighter the implement is, the faster you can move it, the heavier the implement is, the slower it's going to move. With eccentrics, the faster the movement speed, the more force is going on your muscles and your tendons. But that higher force with a higher speed eccentrically is probably a greater benefit for hypertrophy. And that's actually what Glenn was talking about makes sense is that he, you know, weightlifters, like you're saying, you know, they build,

like you look at the legs of a weightlifter, your top lifters compared to your natural power lifters, weightlifters are probably going to come out on top of specific, you know, like also the glutes, weightlifters, weightlifting gives you the biggest, most muscular ass. That's the first thing my wife noticed about me. I noticed her smile. She noticed my butt. That's good.

Yeah. Hey, you know, it got me a great woman. But, you know. Birthing. You were doing that eccentric fasting to a queen that gives you a higher speed eccentric because you move into the deep squat and you're getting that hip flexion, deep hip flexion, stretching your glutes electrically at a fast speed that's going to give you the bigger stimulus for hypertrophy. Massive amounts of deceleration impact impulse like exactly and the forces that

you're placing on your muscle even though you really don't perceive it because like you know um kind of relating you know probably one of the biggest proponents for east training um is triphasic caldia you know everybody thinks that the first phase in that where you're doing slow eccentrics is like the eccentric part but actually the higher phase in that where you're doing slow eccentrics is like the eccentric part but actually the higher forces eccentrics you're going to experience when you get to phase 2 the concentric

hold the isometric and then phase 3 where you do the fast movement the faster speeds the higher the forces are even though you don't perceive them as high on your muscles and that type of high speed force is going to be the biggest potential stimulus for hypertrophy is there any benefit to doing the slow eccentrics like you know you

always hear bodybuilding coaches doing the tempo work you know seven second eccentrics i think there's a huge benefit to it too because the cool thing also is that um it's all about phasing you in to be able to handle high speed eccentrics without getting injured. I like the Caldeets approach. Triphasic phase one is the eccentric is to get you stronger eccentrically because eccentrics where you're lowering don't appear to be as velocity specific. Meaning if you train at a slow speed, eccentrically lengthening, that actually carries over to making you stronger at faster speeds when tasted eccentrically that's for eccentrics that's true for concentrics it's very you have to train at the speed at which you're

tested essentially otherwise you see much of a carry over but eccentrics you can train slow and still get stronger fast so it's a lower force in the muscles of progression so i like you know calvates progresses you to getting stronger, essentially, before you're really going to be challenged by it. Oh, yeah, that makes total sense. Mike Boyle, I like the way he does plyometric progression because he starts off, you jump onto boxes and step down, jumping on. It's a lower level of stress, eccentrically,

and then you're doing hops over hurdles, and that's a little extra stress, essentially. not to like phase three phase four of his progression that you're doing true pie metrics where you're doing the high speed eccentrics repeatedly right it's all about you know the advantages you're you're progressing and doing the easier stimulus first but it's so cool that we're friends again by the way it might boil i know you're sharing very professional in the debate. I thought you won. Thank you.

I like having my opinions challenged. Michael, he certainly produced a lot. He got mad at me for about a year. I was very professional. I just don't agree with him on one thing. I don't want everybody in my, you know, who I'm friends with to agree with me on everything.

That's kind of, you know, as long as you do it civilly, you certainly, you know, at least what I saw you all. So, yeah, I totally respect that. I paid him three times to seminars. So I like you if you did that. Yeah, I know. That's what I'm saying. When I'm filing emailed, I'm i'm like bro you can't block me

i have paid for three seminars i was like i wasn't mean to you but it was like one of my buddy you know coach waxman he got oh yeah he was pretty mean to him but yeah yeah anyway that's you know waxman's personality is like yeah he's new york you know pull any punches or you know he's not gonna worry about hurting anybody's feelings not at all so which is what it's funny you know like uh because you know he's funny you know like uh because you know he's done announcing now like a lot of the international meets and stuff and you know i like you know my wife saw him like he had she didn't know who he was and she saw him on tv and it's just oh my god he looks just like he sounds because he does he does when you hear his

voice you just the impression you get sort of like a big face guy and that's him who he is he moved right he shut his gym down and he's in vegas or something right no salt lake city he went to move to utah he's doing strength conditioning he's doing real well so he's yeah he hates california right now don't ask him his opinion about california um as we as we age and we're not able to move heavy weights as fast as we once were. And it seems, if we were to make like a broad statement that as we get older, we do less sprinting, less change of direction. In thinking about hypertrophy and kind of moving fast, like you're talking about, is that a really good way if we were to be interested in keeping the muscle mass that we have it and consistently, you know, in a

way getting stronger by adding a lot of sprinting and jumping into our training as as we age? I wouldn't recommend that because like, with age, I said, you know, high speed eccentrics, I want to say, you know, best way to put mechanical forces on your muscle. And then a very big caveat, I'm glad you said that, if you're young, if you're healthy, because the forces you're putting on there are massive. Well, you don't need – yeah, don't go straight into sprinting, but even if it's like rolling starts or one standing broad jump,

not linking them together or doing having you know like grandpa maybe you know hopping up onto a six inch box totally not no 80 year olds are listening to us right now yeah exactly but you know like that's what maybe one you know something that maybe you know like yeah so like mike boyle progression phase one yeah something as you can tolerate it. I'm thinking even for us, I mean, the thing that I – if I were to analyze my own training, what I do the least is jumping. Yeah.

I probably get off to the track just because I enjoy sprinting. That's good. At least once a month. But it's still a giant weakness that I just don't move that fast anymore. I kind of train at the end of a long aerobic run or 5K, but that high speed stuff just doesn't happen that much anymore. We lose, you know, based on the last chapter that we just, you know, the Titan is a protein that is responsible for the elasticity in our muscles and we lose that i know i know i used to be really good at jumping like really good and that now i go to jump and it just feels like my my muscles are made out of cement so

yeah and so sadly i mean you know just that loss of elastin in your muscles and in your connective tissue is uh i don't think they've discovered an anti well i mean maybe you know to an extent you know that not you know high doses of hgh but oh all right that's not an endorsement that will make your connective tissue stronger but actually it still won't make it more pliable um yeah that's just unfortunately something that you know happens with aging and you do have to modify your training there's no trick to it so can you slow that down by continuing to do like you know athletic movements like never stop probably to the extent that you can but you know that's what you know like i will tell you like in my personal experience you know and again you know it happened when i was 45 but it shocked me because i would have told you the day before i had the accident that my left knee

was my good knee but that's the one that snapped, um, had no warning the way the weight I've hit. No, I, I, I never, you know, I was always lifting like a master going to be six for six open at a confident opener, take like small jumps, like two to three kilos, try to go six for six, have fun. You know, I'm not, you know, trying to break world records or anything like that. But, you know, it caught me totally unawares. Second attempt snatch, which should have been an easy make. Landed in perfect position. You know, had that happy, like, oh, you know, nailed it feeling. And then, pow.

Did you warm up? I'm getting kicked open. You know, that's what came out of my knee. But then I was on my back. But so, yeah, you know, obviously my connect out of my knee but um then i was on my back but um so yeah you know obviously i my connective tissue got stiffer and the way it happened it was happening moving pretty fast the high speed um i'd swatted a lot more than that cleaned a lot more than that uh smashed that same weight several times in training just happened to be my bad time so

to your point about the mike to your point about the mike boyle phase one stuff where you're jumping up onto a box as opposed to doing like depth jumps where you're jumping off of boxes and you have exactly you're by the time you hit the ground you're going much faster than than if you're basically potentially not not barely moving at all when you land on top of the box you might be like hitting the peak of your of your jump and then you're landing very softly right exactly so minimizing the eccentric force right so on that note as i've gotten older and i've started sprinting less and less i still sprint a little bit outside but it's mostly hill sprints or i or like especially during covid i run sprints on my stairs in my house it's like three steps per leg to the top

i run 100 full speed not you know unquote, not the failure, not too fatigued. I'm not tired, but it just keeps me doing something fast and explosive in a very safe way. Exactly. I think that's, you know, my personal thing is I do, I love indoor rowing because it doesn't hurt. I can get great cardio on it. So I do like Tabata sprints on that. You know, try to keep my stroke rate as high as possible, or stroke power as high as possible for like the 20-second rest, you know, 20-second work intervals, 10-second rest intervals. But it gets my cardio, gets my heart rate up to, you know,

like 180 or so, which is good for a guy my age. You know, over within four minutes that, you know, doesn't hurt anything. Right. I love the ERC for that. you know, doesn't hurt anything. Right. I love the ERG for that. I mean, I'm on that thing multiple times a week just for that specific reason. One run, four to five miles, beats up my knees, and I can sit on an ERG. I mean, I'm not running outside in the middle of the winter when it's raining and gross, and the ability to just kind of go on that thing and just practice breathing for 20, 30 minutes is, is an awesome tool.

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. All right. You shut me down, mash. No. Oh my God. Shut me down. I got to go in four minutes though. Oh, then we'll do it. There it is. Masters masters up against the clock right there. Usually I get a text message. That time he just wanted it done. I didn't mean to.

No, it's good. Where can people find you? We'll let Matt get to school. He's probably headed to your class right now. No, I'm headed to coach. I kept the exam open for you. Thank you. That's still good?

Yeah, still good. Cool. All right. But, yeah, I'm at Little Orion University. If you want to become a social media influencer, go take your class, right? If you want to reach millions and millions of people. Actually, Travis was big before he took my class. How about bigger now?

Is it weird when you look out into the crowd of your classroom and there's like a bunch of 19-year-olds trying to learn about how to go be a personal trainer and then Team USA coach Strong's Man of the World is sitting in your class? Do you get like an imposter syndrome even though you're the teacher? You're like, ah. I did have a little bit of that when I taught Travis's level two weightlifting coaching course. Yeah, he taught me my level two. When was that, like 2012, 2013?

Something like that. It was at St. Robbins. So I saw on my roster Travis Mash. And, you know, at this point, you know, blowing up, I was like, I was thinking, oh, Christ, this guy's going to become the biggest chip on his shoulder. Like, I know everything, you know, blah, blah, blah. He's become, you know, it was such a delight that travis is you know so the opposite of that he's always you know eager to learn and very collegial and i don't know why michael ever could have blocked you because you're such a sweet guy travis because of waxman yeah oh yeah that's waxman though that you're not you're not responsible

that's what i told him uh so you know which is a good thing probably. I'm sorry if people didn't know that because I feel like I cut you off. I got so excited to make fun of Travis sitting in class at college with all the 19-year-olds. Where can people find you? Lenore Ryan University, LR.edu. He's on social media. Dr. Lighting, hit me up. Dr. Lighting.

I have an Instagram, but I don't post anything my Instagram is for my athletes to send me their training videos for the most part you post some of those stuff Travis I gotta mention Dr. Lighting hit me up right away after we made fun of him for not being on social media at all he immediately started following me

as if he checked the box those two have so much to give that's that's lighting's way man lighting is hilarious because like lighting just yeah he's he's like the most productive guy i know he doesn't know how to like do something that's not like work oh yeah he is like always like when he goes home from work he like rebuilds a car engine that's how yeah to me it's like he's so smart. It's like sitting and watching TV. His brain thinks similar to mine. His biomechanics

are like, his physiology is killing me, but biomechanics is kind of mine. You're doing fine, Travis. You'll be fine. We'll find out tonight. Coach Travis Mash! I have faith in you. Thanks. Mashlead.com

You can go to Instagram Mashlead Performance Hey Mash Worst case You can go into his office The night before the final And ask for a D

And you know He'll say no He'll say no I wouldn't do that Doug Larson You bet On Instagram Douglas E. Larson

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