Barbell Shrugged - Don’t Blame It On Genetics: Dr. Anthony Jay Tells Us How To Work With, Instead of Against, Our Genes — Muscle Maven Radio Episode #28

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, everybody. Welcome to Muscle Maven Radio. I am your host, as always, Ashley, the Killer Van Houten. And I just made that up because it sounds cooler than my actual middle name. So there you go. But I hope you're having a fantastic summer. I hope you're feeling healthy and happy and just having a good time in general. And I'm excited to hear what you guys think about today's guest because he's super smart, very full of useful information. And one of my favorite things about Dr. Anthony Jay is that he has such an interesting job and an interesting background. And he does like crazy work. And he talks about it so casually, like the way other people will

Starting point is 00:00:42 talk about doing laundry on a Sunday. He has a day job at the Mayo Clinic, no big deal. He does DNA consulting on the side. It's his personal business. He wrote an incredible book called Estrogeneration that I highly recommend about all of the insidious chemicals and hormone disrupting things that we can find in our food, our water, our skincare, basically every area of our life that's messing with our health and giving people boobs who shouldn't have boobs and so on. And it also tells us how we can address these issues. That book is really, really good, really accessible. And it offers a lot of great information that anyone can read and understand.

Starting point is 00:01:27 But he, anyway, I'm going off track, but he has a background in creating and testing viruses for the government. Don't get too scared about that. He explains the details in our chat. He literally used to cut open brains to learn about brain injuries and brain function. Brain cutting, guys. He's just like, yeah, I used to cut open brains. No big deal. I mean, anyway, you can tell why I like him. But today, we're actually mostly talking about his job interpreting our DNA. So our genetic information that we can get easily using saliva from companies like 23andMe and other companies like that. And I know some of you are kind of wary of products or programs like that, thinking that

Starting point is 00:02:09 maybe some foreign governments stealing your spit to clone you or something. Dr. J has a rational response to that. But I'm just saying, like, are you guys all that great? Like, is someone really going to try and clone you? Is that the foreign government's top priority? I mean, I did 23andMe. I'm not concerned that there's any copies of me wandering around. And I mean, I did it. I thought it was pretty mildly entertaining. I didn't really care about most of the information it gave me. Like, you know, I log into my 23andMe website and it's telling me like, you may be average height and don't tolerate caffeine very well. I'm like, yeah, 23andMe, I get it. I knew that already. But it turns out that the information that they gather, this genetic data, there's a lot more valuable information. You just need to know how to interpret it. You need someone smart like

Starting point is 00:02:58 Dr. J to interpret it for you. And for liability reasons, I guess these big companies aren't giving you all of this information. They're just kind of telling you like how you taste cilantro and stuff like that. But Dr. J can look at it, study it for genetic abnormalities or challenges or differences, and give you valuable information that can inform your lifestyle choices, your diet, your exercise, and help you make intelligent decisions that are going to make you healthier and happier ultimately. So it's really interesting stuff. I really, really hope you enjoy it. Before we get into it, got to shout out my sponsors as per the use. These guys are taking care of me. Beekeepers Naturals. Can't forget them. They're delicious, raw enzymatic honey products. If you guys haven't

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Starting point is 00:04:37 at checkout and get a discount and do that because it's great and they're great. And we still have ButcherBox taking care of your protein needs, get all your grass-fed, free-range, high-quality, sustainable meat, fish, pork, beef, all the good stuff. Super high quality, less expensive than if you're going straight to the source or I should say to the grocery store because they're going to take a cut. And you can customize the boxes, you can get whatever you want. And they have a really great deal for you. They're offering two pounds of ground beef, AKA one muscle Maven size serving, uh, two pounds of ground beef, two packs of bacon, plus 20% off your order. If you go to butcherbox.com forward slash Maven and use the code maven at checkout. So taking care of you guys, it's what I do. And that's all for me. Now, I hope you enjoy my interview with Dr. Anthony J.

Starting point is 00:05:36 All right, Dr. J, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to chat with you again. It's been a little while. I managed to interview you once before a little while ago for a different show for Paleo Magazine. And now I get, every time I get a new podcast, it's just an excuse to go back and interview all the smart people that I've interviewed before and see what you're up to. So I'm excited. Yeah, same. Thanks. So how's your summer going? Oh, it's good.

Starting point is 00:06:04 It's funny because they just put, you know, when we were in Austin, we were in Austin, right? Yes. Paleo Fest. Yep. Keto Con, actually. Keto. Okay.

Starting point is 00:06:12 That's what it was. Yep. Also in Austin. They had those little battery powered scooters. Yes. They just put those in my town yesterday in Rochester, Minnesota. That's awesome. They're so much fun. I was honestly a little bit hesitant to get on one of those. And Ben, Ben Pekulski kind of convinced me. He was like, don't be a wuss. Like, this is

Starting point is 00:06:37 not a big deal. Because it's one of those things you see other people, like tourists doing it with ease. And so you're like, this probably isn't a death trap and then you get on it you're like oh it's kind of a death trap like you can go really fast on those things people are just like zipping around town going over bridges like blind turns like but there's so much fun though it's hard you have to kind of get used to it and it's funny because i took i spent like it's only it's cheap you know you go for a long time so i literally spent six bucks yesterday just driving all my kids around taking turns and up and down the sidewalks it's cheap, you know, you go for a long time. So I literally spent six bucks yesterday just driving all my kids around and taking turns and up and down the sidewalks. It was fun. Yeah. It's pretty awesome. So can your kids use those on their own?

Starting point is 00:07:13 No, no. Okay. Cause they're pretty young. Yeah. They're young. The oldest is eight. Okay. But how, didn't I see a picture of an, is your oldest Lydia? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Haven't I seen a picture of her on Instagram? Like bull riding a small animal? That's one of the things I wanted to talk to you about. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. We did this thing last year. It's called mutton busting.

Starting point is 00:07:37 Okay. Where they ride a sheep. But it's like prepping them for bull riding, kind of, right? Yeah, yeah. I have a lot of friends that bull ride. I grew up in this culture out here in Minnesota, out in the country. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. It's funny because last year, so I have four kids. Two, four, six, eight are the ages. Last year, my six-year-old, who was, of course, five years old last year,

Starting point is 00:08:02 she was the only one who did this mutton busting where you ride the sheep and it took a ton of guts i mean it was really intense for her and you know there's other kids that do it there's probably about 15 other kids that get in the line and they do it and it's between it's like halftime at the bull riding i read the rodeo so they see these giant cows just kicking people off and chasing people and swinging around in circles. You know how it is, bull riding. It's intense. When you're sitting there in the front row, it's even crazier. Then she has to get down and go out on that same arena in front of all those people.

Starting point is 00:08:37 They put her on a sheep and then she rides around. That is crazy badass and also terrifying. How did your kids get into this is it just like you were going to the events and they're like i'd like to try yeah pretty much i don't even know but yeah i mean they just offer it for the kids and you know we managed to sign them up early enough so that she got she got in on it and your wife is is like, yeah, go ahead. Just, I mean, she, she doesn't mind. So it's good for character building, I guess, even though it's hard to watch for the parents of the kids.

Starting point is 00:09:16 Yeah, I can imagine. That's crazy. I mean, I think it's, I don't know. I mean, it's, it's badass. I'll say that because yeah, I've watched a little bit. I'm trying to think of a documentary I watched recently that was about bull riding and it is one of those things you see over and over again with like elite sports like you know when you're watching football and the same thing you're like these guys are really messing themselves up like badly but it's for this like

Starting point is 00:09:38 passion and love for a sport that they it's like it's almost like the risk that they're taking bull riding is not as bad as the quality of life they would have if they didn't do the sport that they it's like it's almost like the risk that they're taking bull riding is not as bad as the quality of life they would have if they didn't do the sport that they loved you know what i mean which but then of course it gets more complicated because they've got people in their lives who love them and are like you are probably gonna get trampled one of these days like you're gonna get brain damage you're gonna die and they're like well i gotta I got to do it. It's an intense sport. People are a whole different level of crazy, I think. I've thought about doing it myself.

Starting point is 00:10:11 I've never actually done it. I've gotten on cows before, but not in the bull riding arena. But I don't think I'd let my kids straight up ride a bull like that. But the sheep is pretty fun. That's different. You know, and like the previous year, my daughter, she grabbed real tight around the neck of the sheep and she hung on way too long and got trampled. She kind of fell off the front end of the sheep. So then the sheep kind of ran over her. So she,

Starting point is 00:10:36 of course, lost it. She was out crying and then she ran in the opposite direction where she was supposed to go. So she was like lost in the arena, know oh no and so and then what was funny about it is she was so proud that she did she's like crying and all this and i thought that's the end of this and and then that's like all she talked about the next year was like how she's gonna do it again and like all her siblings were super jealous you know i mean like you said it's said, it is character building. Like that is an experience that not a lot of modern kids get to have, right? I mean, that's like a whole different level of sort of like the stakes and the reality of what you're doing. I mean, it's just, you know, we put our kids in gymnastics or soccer or whatever, but this is like a whole different kind of physical uh ordeal so you can't control what's gonna happen yeah that's amazing it's stressful right like you

Starting point is 00:11:33 watch these kids especially the little ones they they go on they put them in the sheep they open the gate and then the sheep runs out and the kids come back crying it's like kid after kid comes back in tears you know probably every other one of them. Yeah. And you know, they're okay. Like they get, they get a little bumped and bruised and whatever, but it's, it's hard to watch. And then, you know, your kids are going to do it. So what I tell them to do is hold onto the fur, like grab the fur. Don't, don't grab them around the neck because if you grab them around the neck, then you tend to fall forward off of them we are learning valuable lessons today already in this podcast don't grab a sheep by the neck okay grab

Starting point is 00:12:12 it by the fur yeah and then if you fall off you kind of slide off the back end usually and it's no big deal and that's what my kids did not cry this year and they were perfectly fine and they can't wait for next year again so it's's funny. So forward trajectory, no crying this year, next year, they're going to keep crushing it. Did you get any like bad reaction to posting that picture on Instagram? I think one person, it was maybe on Facebook. I can't remember, but no, not really. I mean, you know, it's not, it's not, the sheep don't really care.

Starting point is 00:12:44 The sheep just kind of run around. They don't, I mean, you know, it's not, it's not, the sheep don't really care. The sheep just kind of run around. They don't, the cows, you know, I can understand it's a little different because they're actually putting something on them to instigate them. The sheep, they're perfectly fine. They're not, they're not harming the sheep in any way. Sheep are just running out there. And yeah, I mean, I was going to say, Lydia, she actually got second place. She had first place the whole time. And that was, you know, it's neither here nor there. But because last year, they didn't give anything for first place. But this year, they actually timed the kids. And she was holding first place until the very last kid and that last kid, you know, took over and they give her a really nice belt buckle, like a really fancy, legit belt buckle that said mutton busting on it this huge goal next year is to win the belt buckle that's amazing i mean i'm a big fan of

Starting point is 00:13:33 sort of i don't even want to say like not underground because it's not but like more niche kind of sports like i my very first interview um for shrugged was with a friend of mine who happens to be the best arm wrestler in the world. His name's Devin Larratt. And he's a fascinating character study because he, I mean, he just has a crazy story, but somebody who's just so hyper-focused on a sport that like most of the world doesn't even know about, but it has like a very vibrant subculture of people who are like obsessed with it. But anyway, I guess moral of the story is

Starting point is 00:14:06 if you want to ride a sheep, go to Minnesota. Got it. Okay. All right. So another before we actually get into like, even more substantial questions, although this was I don't know, pretty substantial. Another thing that I saw on your Instagram that I wanted to talk to you about, because it relates more directly to me, is something that you posted about dark chocolate lowering depression for up to 24 hours, which to me, all I saw was just like a bright neon light saying like, you should have chocolate every day. So I'd love for you to justify that for me. Oh, yeah. Good call. Good question. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people, I do DNA consulting. And it's not, you know, sometimes I do it for pro athletes. Sometimes I do it for, you know, special forces. I was just giving a talk for the special forces this past

Starting point is 00:14:58 week. All kinds of different people, but a lot of lay people too, just people that want to improve their health. And it's surprising how many of them have issues with their oxytocin receptor. There's a gene, you know, you can, you can pick it up with 23andMe. It's not that expensive to do, you know, the test, but, and for those people, you know, they need more oxytocin just to be, just to deal with stress in particular, you know,. If you've got the bad version of that gene, you just don't deal with stress as well as you should. And of course, there's a lot of ways to increase oxytocin, but it's hard to do it right before you go into a stressful meeting or something like that, like these situations. I mean, for example, warm showers increase oxytocin, but you

Starting point is 00:15:43 can't take a warm shower while you're at work. Yeah, but don't hugs do it too. But then I guess you could run into problems at work if you're just like asking your co-workers to hug you all the time. Right. Or just sneaking up behind them. Yeah, right. Probably wouldn't go over too well. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:15:59 So dark chocolate is usually what I tell people when they have that gene issue. I mean, I know people, I'm trying to think there's a guy, he was on Joe Rogan, but there's other people too that actually, I know people that inject oxytocin or they use this, they use like one of these nasal oxytocin. I was going to ask you about this. Yeah. Yeah. I actually have an oxytocin spray because my doctor was basically like, Hey, just give

Starting point is 00:16:23 it a shot. Like, I don't know, maybe it'll be good. And I don't notice any difference at all. And I don't know if I'm doing it enough or if I'm not using it at the right time or whatever, but do you have any like sort of feedback or, or hear anything about the efficacy of the spray? Because maybe it's just one of those things where maybe I don't have the, the faulty, yeah, maybe I don't have it. And so it's not doing much for me. But yeah, have you heard that it's pretty effective for people? No, not broadly.

Starting point is 00:16:53 It's just in those specific situations where you've got that gene issue, I think. Right. I mean, maybe you could just keep going up in the dose and eventually you'd find something. But, you know, I i mean if you're if you don't have the gene issue i don't think you need to increase the levels like some people you know they deal with they have problems with stress and it relates to other gene issues or other pathways or other mechanisms right like dopamine or something like that adenosine but yeah if you have that specific oxytocin one it can be a real life changer and of course like

Starting point is 00:17:26 i say chocolate is the easiest first first responder why the hell are you going to get a prescription for a nasal spray when you can eat chocolate so what is it in the chocolate specifically that's working with these receptors i'm not sure actually that's a good question i'm sure it's it's like if i had to guess i'm not sure but if i had to guess it would probably be theopromine yeah you know the molecule of the gods it's translated but but literally i don't i've never actually looked that far into it yeah i mean do you need to when someone just says eat chocolate it's good for you it's like done i don't need the evidence well it's that and the fact that because i do so many, I look at so many different

Starting point is 00:18:05 genes. I mean, we have 25,000 genes. And I'm, you know, I'm looking at, I wasn't literally thousands of those for specific issues. Like another example, I just gave this weekend at the, you know, at this military for the military was people have this gene issue with converting beta carotene to retinol. So like some people, well, a lot of people talk about, you know, they say eat carrots because it's good for your eyes, right? But carrots have beta carotene, and that's where it got the name, you know, because it's orange color, it makes carrots orange. It actually makes your skin orange if you overdose it.

Starting point is 00:18:45 And the problem is your body doesn't use carotene. You know, you don't have carotene in your eyes. You have retinol, which of course was named for your retina. And you have to convert beta carotene to retinol before it does anything in your body. And some people literally, they'll have a plus minus gene, meaning one bad copy of a gene and one good copy where they have a 30% reduced conversion of beta carotene to retinol. And if you have two bad copies of that gene, you have a 70% reduced conversion, like a plus plus, you know, because we have two copies of DNA in every cell in our body. So if you've got the 70% reduced conversion of beta carotene to retinol, which by the way, I have, and that's really common. It's not like it's a super rare genetic issue. Well, then you can eat all kinds of carrots and your eyes just aren't going to benefit.

Starting point is 00:19:33 And your skin might even turn orange because you're just not converting it. It's just sitting in your body. So that's where people really need to have liver, for example. And their ancestors probably had liver. You know, that's where we got that gene. They didn't have access to piles of carrots, of course. They had liver. And you can get a little bit from meat and a little bit from other animal products, but almost exclusively, it's really high in liver.

Starting point is 00:20:01 I mean, that's the only real high source. So for those people, right, obviously I tell them high in liver. I mean, that's the only real high source. So, so for those people, right, obviously I tell them to eat liver and there's so many other situations that are like that. And there are genetics that, you know, it's hard for me to keep track of exactly the proofs for every single situation like that, but it's, but it makes a big difference if you just understand, okay, you have this gene issue, take liver, unless you have some really high iron issues, in which case then you take retinol as a pure supplement, you know? Do many people have issues with high iron? I would think that most people, and especially women, would go, would be the other side.

Starting point is 00:20:37 No, I mean, Mercola is my favorite on this, Dr. Joseph Mercola, because he's big on optimization. Most doctors in America, they're just want you in the quote unquote normal range. And just like vitamin D and testosterone and all these things, normal is pretty pathetic in America because most Americans are pretty unhealthy. And iron, a lot of people, like you said, women, not so much because of the cycles. Of course, postmenopausal women, it's a different story, but a lot of people, like you said, women, not so much because of the cycles. Of course, postmenopausal women, it's a different story, but a lot of people, especially men, have too high iron, but it's still within, quote-unquote, the normal range. So nobody tells them it's actually too high. You know, they're not optimal. They're risking their arteries and, you know, especially if you

Starting point is 00:21:22 look at the genetics and you look at that hemochromatosis gene there's a couple of genes related to hemochromatosis meaning really high iron in your blood and then people start getting over the recommended range which is really high you know and that's a big problem and it does depend on how much you're exercising and things like that how many red blood cells you're making and turning over how else do you address high iron? Like I thought, and maybe this is fake, but I thought that sometimes if you like, um, if you give blood that that can help. Yeah, for sure. Okay. That's by far the best way to do it. Okay. And, and everyone, you know, I,

Starting point is 00:21:57 I do consulting for so many people every single day I do DNA consulting. And, um, so I work at the Mayo Clinic as like a normal day job. And then I go home and do consulting. So I get up pretty early to get to work. And then I get off early enough to do DNA consults. And it's amazing how many people are afraid of needles, and they just refuse to give blood. Even though it's the right thing to do in terms of their health, they just won't do it. And that can be a little trickier um if you've got those genes you got high iron i mean the the risks relating to your arteries and things are really high so there's some supplements that will decrease iron care quercetin is one um q-e-u-e-r-c

Starting point is 00:22:39 however you spell the rest of it c-e-t-i--N, I think. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, but yeah, I mean, it's best if you can donate blood, if you're really high, it's almost impossible to really get it down without real strategic, uh, you know, lifestyle changes, but most people aren't even checking their levels in their blood for starters. So that's, but again, it just goes back to the, the importance of knowing your DNA, because if you have these hemochromatosis genes, then you do have pretty high likelihood to have iron and then it's worth keeping track of. Otherwise, you know, if you don't even have the genes, it's usually not even an issue. It's not not that important. What are some of the symptoms of like a concerningly high iron?

Starting point is 00:23:23 Like what would what would be something that maybe somebody would recognize in themselves and then think to go get tested? No, I mean, there aren't any when you have, you know, again, there's like a normal range. I think it goes up to like 200. And this, we're talking about ferritin, meaning like the iron that's, or transferritin, like the iron that's transported in your blood, not just free iron, just sitting around.

Starting point is 00:23:46 And when you start getting a, you know, up above, I think it's above 80, like the optimal range is between 60 and 80. And again, that, that won't, if you get 90 on your blood test or a hundred, most of the time, they're not going to flag that and say, Hey, your iron is too high because the normal range goes from like, I don't know, maybe 40 to 200, if I remember. But it totally depends on the company that's doing it, because some companies that high end of the range is 100. So it's like super variable, just like testosterone, right? Like the total testosterone. Sometimes you go in there and you get a 250 and they're like, oh, you're normal.

Starting point is 00:24:20 And then you go in there and you get a 300 and they're like, oh, you're low. You know, it just depends on the company that's testing you because i think 300 is really low but some companies consider 250 like that you know the still within the range which is crazy yeah so these these normal ranges vary based on the company that you're testing your blood from and and again like really really high iron mean, that's pretty rare, but when you get above the normal range is really common. Okay. Talk to me a little bit about your DNA consulting business, like how it works and how people kind of like connect with you and what the process is. Yeah. I mean, I have a website called AJ Consulting Company. So it's a terrible website

Starting point is 00:25:08 name, but I literally came up with it when I was doing contracting for the government. I used to design viruses for the government. That sounds like a story all on its own, what we should hear about. Well, yeah. I mean, so I would make DNA, right? I would design DNA and put it in human cells in dishes. And then the human cells would actually pick up the DNA and make a virus for me. And then you actually put it in. Sounds like a scary movie. Like it sounds like the beginning of a zombie movie here. Should we be more concerned about this stuff that you're doing for the government? Well, no, because I'm not doing that anymore.

Starting point is 00:25:45 But basically, it was for lab research, right? I mean, you could use it in humans and it could be really scary, but I was just using it for mice. So we were trying to cure Alzheimer's by injecting virus into mouse brains and, you know, specific targeted virus. We call them neutered virus because you take out all the bad DNA and you just you design the virus in such a way that it just injects a certain gene or it fixes a gene or it does something positive. Um, so yeah, like basically that's how I set up the AJ consulting company. That's why I needed a

Starting point is 00:26:15 company in order to get these, these projects underway. Um, so I just came up with a name on the spot and it's kind of stuck ever since AJ Consulting Company. So my website has this terrible name. People go there and they just click on the link and sign up and then I send them a scheduler and off we go. But they first need the 23andMe or the Ancestry raw data, you know, they need those tests done first.

Starting point is 00:26:43 Is there any issue? Let me just stop you there before we go any further. I did 23andMe a long time ago, and I've found it to be not necessarily a revelation, but kind of interesting and whatever. But I wasn't looking at it to address specific health issues or anything like that. It was more just like a general interest thing, and it was generally interesting, but that's about it. But some people are worried about like where this information's going and like, I don't know, data mining, like whatever, everyone gets very worked up about any kind of personal information that's anywhere in the world. So is there any like merit to that? Is there any reason that people should be like concerned about doing 23andMe in your opinion? I mean, not right now, you know, it's people have, you know,

Starting point is 00:27:28 I've, I've talked to people like, what are the best arguments for, you know, like, like for protecting that particular form of data, you know, like what can people possibly do with this? That's worst case scenario. Yeah. And I mean, it kind of comes down to like insurance companies might be able to use it, but there's literally laws. Like one of them is called gina act g-i-n-a the gina act um there's laws to protect from that but of course the laws can change you know and then it could be a problem but still like really the worst case scenarios aren't really that bad but i

Starting point is 00:27:57 even with all of that being said i still recommend people use an alias if they're worried about it just just call yourself superman yeah just make up a fake name and the company doesn't care you know and just uncheck all the shared permission boxes and all that and just you can still do your get your dna sequenced and have the raw data file on your computer it's just under the name of superman or batman or whatever yeah i mean that's a good idea. I never had an issue with it because I'm like, what? Who's going to take the information that's telling me that I probably have straight hair and I don't metabolize coffee that well? If you want that information that badly, go for it. I don't really care. But I get that some people are a little bit

Starting point is 00:28:40 more sensitive to these things. And when people now are saying oh china's has hacked in and taken all the data and they're finding new drugs from it and it's like maybe they are like if they are what's what's so bad about that i mean to be honest like is that really that bad of a problem you know does that threaten you or does that threaten our country in any way like you you do kind of have to have these huge data sets in order but what's funny about it like well you have to have these huge data sets in order to to actually you know find patterns and interesting things but what i was gonna say it's funny because the u.s government already has like you know loads of this data you can access for free

Starting point is 00:29:23 from clinical trials for people that have agreed to share their data so it's not like you need to hack into 23andme and like pull you know like you know like secretly secretly come in the back door and take this stuff because it's out there in the public domain for free for people that have you know willingly accepted these risks and of course those aren, the names aren't associated with anything, right? But again, if you're worried about the name, just use an alias. So it's, I don't think it's that, you know, that much of a concern from that perspective. And what's funny, those DNA reports they send you, like you mentioned, where they tell you your hair is

Starting point is 00:29:59 straight. They're so useless. I mean, I a hundred percent agree. Um, like when I did it, I thought it was a complete joke. And then I started tinkering with the actual data because they'll send you the thousands of pages and, or the, you know, they send you the whole 600,000 snips that they do. Yeah. And then it's like super interesting and there's loads of information you can find, but because they're trying to play it safe and they're kind of pussyfooting around the FDA and they just tell you these really pathetic, like, you know, these things like your cilantro tastes like soap. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's telling me like, oh, you might be like a little bit short. I'm like, oh, really? Like I didn't know these things about myself, but I think there's also the element

Starting point is 00:30:41 that like the average person can't read or navigate through that stuff anyway. So and that's where you come in, right? Like is that basically what it is? Like you're taking this raw data that we're not even paying attention to because we're just reading the part that tells us that we probably like carrots or whatever. And then you're taking like the actual sort of like the back end, like raw information. And because you have the expertise, you can look at that and give us actual helpful information. A hundred percent. Yep. I have my own software I've written. In fact, I've gotten so many clients right now. I have a two month waiting list. So I'm actually looking

Starting point is 00:31:14 to hire coaches. I'm probably going to expand because I've written software in such a way that it flags all the genes that are important. i mean there's hundreds in each individual it's really really interesting and and then i'm writing paragraphs for my coaches to basically read basically say what i say like i say the same thing if i see the gene about beta carotene that i just talked about and you've got that problem gene i mean i kind of say i just tell you about it right and it's not you know it's not like some novel thing that i tell you about it. Right. And it's not, you know, it's not like some novel thing that I'm talking about. It's just like, well, you've got it. You want to just have retinol eat liver.

Starting point is 00:31:51 If you can't eat liver supplement retinol, you know what I mean? It's not rocket science, but so basically I, you know, I'm developing software right now to help coaches that I can train because it's expanding so fast. And I think the military might get involved here. And so, you know, it's, it's a really powerful tool. Once you've done it, you realize like, wow, I learned way more about myself than I thought. And it's optimization. It's not about like, oh, I'm going to get, I'm getting cancer. You know, it's more like, well, let's prevent cancer because here's the specific mechanism. In 23andMe, they've recognized now that I'm out there. And they're actually – they just – I think it's on the email they send you after you do your DNA, but it basically saying, like, avoid people like AJ Consulting Company.

Starting point is 00:32:46 You know, it doesn't specifically mention me, but they don't want other people talking about the DNA because they want to have, you know, a monopoly on the market of translating what the DNA means, even though they do such a poor job of it. Yeah, I was going to say that's, I mean, it seems like they should be just aware of their limitations and knowing that they're still providing a massive service because in order to get your expertise, we still generally need to go through somebody like 23andMe. So it's not like they're missing out on any business. You're just kind of taking it a step further. Yep, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I mean, they charge a hundred dollars to basically tell you cilantro tastes like soap. Exactly. It's such a waste of money. I mean, all you need to do is get the cheapest possible version, you know, like the Ancestry,

Starting point is 00:33:35 they call it Ancestry. Just do the Ancestry and that they provide you the raw data from the Ancestry. And that's all I need to work with. Yeah. So what kinds of, I hesitate to even ask about like the software that you've developed. Cause I feel like maybe, maybe my listeners are smarter than I am, but I feel like it would just be total kind of like Greek, how you would explain that anyway. But is that something that, that took like years? Is it

Starting point is 00:34:01 like a proprietary thing that you had to to or is it just like your own personal way of streamlining how you interpret the data like how does that even work it's a little both yeah i mean it's definitely proprietary because you know i completely made it from scratch and i'm not even a coder so i i don't know php or any of these computer languages so i actually hired people to do this um and just communicated exactly what i want and you know so basically just put the dna file in in my software and it spits out what i want and then i can manipulate what you know the readout i can basically manipulate the the script and what it says and so like, for example, you know, as we learn new information about genes, like, like the APOE4 gene, right? Like if you've got the bad version of this APOE4 gene, if you've got APOE3, you don't have any extra Alzheimer's risk. But if you've got the APOE4, you know, like a plus minus, you have a high increased risk for Alzheimer's, right? And if you've got the four, four, like plus plus, you have a 70% chance. Uh, yeah, 70% chance of Alzheimer's just super high.

Starting point is 00:35:13 Um, but a lot of new information is coming out, uh, indicating that DHA AKA fish oil, right. Um, is super protective against that, that problem gene. So, but you have to take a lot, you know, like the military, they were just talking about taking like seven grams a day. And, you know, and I think the upper limit is like 16 grams and then your blood starts getting really thin and it's kind of a problem, but you know, seven grams a day is super expensive. You know, most people that supplement fish oil, maybe take a gram a day, maybe 500 milligrams, like half of a gram. But if you've got that gene, it's probably worth spending some money, you know, and taking

Starting point is 00:35:57 four or five grams a day. Right. Um, but if you don't have that gene, I mean, save, save the $500 a year. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So just that 500 a year you know what i mean yeah yeah so just that one gene you know is is really indicative of you know but but the recent my whole point was that there's kind of new evidence so i kind of changed the script to update based on the new evidence that comes out does that make sense yeah that also sounds like it's sort of extremely painstaking and research heavy because every time anything, any new information comes, it's like you have to completely amend the whole system that you're working with really. Well, just individual genes, right?

Starting point is 00:36:38 But it's like constantly happening, right? Because isn't there constantly, yeah. I guess you never get to just like sit back and be like, and I press a button and all the good information comes because you're constantly kind of updating it right and at the end of the day you know I can't keep up with everything I gave a talk on cancer last year for a conference and the first thing I said is look I'm not a cancer expert you know that's like I'm giving a talk on metabolism and cancer but but I'm not a cancer. But what's funny, and I said this in my talk, my first slide, I don't think anybody's a cancer expert. Like if you're a breast, if your specialty is just breast cancer, there's 30 publications per day on breast cancer. You can't keep up. So until we have artificial intelligence, literally, you know, keep compiling all that information and kind of, you know, keeping tabs on all these new studies that are flying in. You can't keep up.

Starting point is 00:37:33 So the best you can do is just, you know, develop a strategy over time and then make minor tweaks as new information comes out, especially really groundbreaking new information. And there's a certain level of validation I'm looking for. So it's always a process, but for the most part, I've set the foundation up. So the upgrades are minor at this point. So you're looking at this raw data and you've got this program or this algorithm that can kind of like flag, as you were saying earlier, sort of like important things, whether they're like aberrations or issues or whatever. What are some of those like key sort of important flagged things that you would come up against that you would then sort of consult with and talk to clients about? Like, what are some of these key things that are coming up that people need to be aware of?

Starting point is 00:38:23 I know you mentioned the Alzheimer's one. Yeah. about like what are some of these key things that are coming up that people need to be aware of i know you mentioned the alzheimer's one yeah well you oftentimes if you do these like free dna software reports online they'll give you like 50 pages of risks it'll say like you have a 1.3 fold increased risk for this and 1.5 fold increased risk for that and it'll just go on and on and on like you've got a higher risk for breast cancer or this or that. The problem with that is these minor risks, when you repeat those studies, oftentimes they don't, most of the time they don't hold up. So like if you've got a 1.3 fold increased risk for breast cancer or something, then you repeat that study with a larger group of people, you no longer see that. And so the quote unquote finding kind of goes away, it dissolves. so you really need

Starting point is 00:39:06 like a higher increased risk in these studies these epidemiology studies these population-based studies where they're just looking at groups of people um and because epidemiology is kind of weak you know as we know from like the vegans and all this who just rely super heavily on epidemiology it's just a real weak form of science um and so you need like at least a two-fold increased risk you know um to really find substantial things or that's the first thing or you have to understand the mechanisms of how these things work like the biochemistry and so in many cases the studies haven't been done you know like but you can look at the gene and say okay here's the defect this is well established this happens this is the defect like the beta carotene is not converted to retinol yeah maybe there's no studies but if you know beta

Starting point is 00:39:58 carotene is not converted to retinol let's just assume that you need retinol you know what i mean that seems like a safe assumption it's not going to hurt you you know what i mean and so a lot of what i do is based on the biochemistry because i have a phd in biochemistry so i go through these genes and i say well this issue is you know leads to a lack of dopamine or it leads to a lack of oxytocin or it leads to a lack of whatever serotonin and you just go through and try and then you figure out what supplement aka maybe chocolate for oxytocin right what supplement increases that specific gene that you're defective on or you have less of you know what i mean i know it's getting a little technical but that's the approach right is to go through and kind of strategize about here's the defect, here's how we fix it.

Starting point is 00:40:47 And everything has a fix. You just have to figure out what the fix is. So a lot of what you're doing then is not just identifying possible issues. It's coming up with strategies and plans to address it, which I would imagine in a lot of cases requires a fairly deep understanding of like nutrition and lifestyle factors and things like that. Because a lot of, I mean, sometimes it's simply maybe supplementation. But I would imagine, especially with like the Alzheimer's instance or like some other things, a lot of it is like lifestyle factors that you need to change, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:41:22 In fact, I'm working on a book on Alzheimer's specifically. Of course, i'm working on a book on alzheimer's specifically of course i'm working on a bunch of books but one of them is alzheimer's because i did two years of research specifically in the alzheimer's field i used to go to like brain cuttings every thursday oh that's normal brain cuttings what does that even mean oh that's when you cut the skull open and you actually cut the brain and like look at it and see what it tells you. Oh yeah. Yeah. We used to do like all kinds of high profile boxers and pro athletes, like football players

Starting point is 00:41:53 and things. We were the ones that were making the New York times back when the CTI, the, you know, the head injury issues making the news. That was my lab in Boston, you know? Wow. Um, yeah. And, um, so I'm working on a book on Alzheimer's because right now we're just calling it Alzheimer's just like we used to just call cancer cancer. We used to just say, Oh, you've got cancer. That's too bad. You know? And

Starting point is 00:42:17 now we say, Oh, you've got breast cancer. You've got lung cancer. You've got pancreatic cancer, whatever we've got. Even if you've got lymphoma, you don't even just say lymphoma. You say you've got B-cell lymphoma or you've got non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, whatever. You get more and more specific because the treatments are more specific and that's better. We're not just throwing something really broad at you. We're throwing something real precise and there's less side effects that way. And the same with Alzheimerheimer's right like we're still just saying you have alzheimer's but some people have alzheimer's because they've got this dha gene issue i was talking about right and some people have alzheimer's because they don't metabolize sugar or carbs in their brain very well some people have alzheimer's because they don't clear heavy metals from their brain very well and they're

Starting point is 00:43:04 putting aluminum on their armpits every single day. You know what I mean? And on and on and on. There's literally about five or six different categories of Alzheimer's that are pretty clear in my mind right now. But if you go in and if you manage to find a doctor who sees this every day, they're still just calling everything Alzheimer's. So I want to kind of change that whole paradigm. to find a doctor who sees this every day, they're still just calling everything Alzheimer's. So I want to kind of change that whole paradigm. And it starts with DNA because you can identify these classes of people just based on their genetic issues. And that's why they have these increased risk. And some people have multiple. Some people have problems clearing heavy metals

Starting point is 00:43:42 and they have problems dealing with carbs in their brain. And, you know, it just all kind of adds up, but at least let's categorize these because we can, we have the technology to do it pretty cheaply. Is there any difference that you see when you're dealing with, when you're consulting, for example, like sort of a quote unquote average everyday person versus a professional athlete? Because is there any element of like epigenetics happening where maybe people are expressing things differently based on their lifestyle factors and you have to address things differently? Like, is it different depending on the client or is it just across the board? You're looking at these high level things and here's how you address it. Oh, for sure. It's a good point too.

Starting point is 00:44:26 And that's why I like to do the one-on-one consulting as opposed to just, you know, a lot of people ask me, well, why didn't you just develop software and just put it out there? You know? And the problem is men are different than women. You know, kids are different than adults. Your age matters. 80 year old. If you're a 50 year old, if you're a 30 year old, it matters what your goals are. You know, some people want to become professional bodybuilders.

Starting point is 00:44:47 And I have, you know, I have partnerships with people that train professional bodybuilders. So every single bodybuilder, they do their DNA first, you know. And so I see a lot of these guys that are like Mr. Olympic contenders and everything else. And pro athletes, I have, you know, different deals. And so it depends on your goal. You know what I mean? Like if your goal is just purely longevity and living a long time, that's totally different than a professional bodybuilder usually. So yeah, so I'm trying to optimize their strategies based on those things. And I break it into categories. I have the brain, you know, I'm looking at the brain, I'm looking at the diet, I'm looking at the training, the exercise relating genes, and then the final category is sleep. And I kind of throw detox in

Starting point is 00:45:35 there too. So maybe about five categories, depending on the person and their goals and all this and how much time we have but um yeah it definitely differs the emphasis differs i mean the genes if you've got a problem gene it's a problem gene you know here's how to fix it but the emphasis can definitely change based on the person and you mentioned epigenetics you know it's interesting because a lot of people downplay dna it's like well now that we understand what epigenetics are dna is not that important. And it's not really true. Like I wouldn't in my estrogen book, estrogeneration, you know, I specifically wrote about epigenetics, how important they are to understand and what that means. Like I'm the biggest world's biggest fan of epigenetics. In

Starting point is 00:46:19 fact, that's why I came to Mayo Clinic two years ago is to study epigenetics of stem cells. That's basically my full-time job. Because epigenetics are so darn important, but so is the DNA. You know, you can't, they kind of go hand in hand. You can't like take out one and then say this one is more important than the other one. Because if you've got a faulty gene, like you're not converting beta-carotene to retinol, it doesn't matter how much of that gene you're making. Like the epigenetics can change how much of the gene you make, you know, but if the gene is faulty, it's still going to be faulty. You know what I mean? You're making a car with no tires. You still, it doesn't matter if you make 50 of them, you're still not driving anywhere. Yeah. It's not like, it's like nature versus nurture. It's not an either or thing. You need

Starting point is 00:47:03 to, you need to think about both. And a lot of the pro athletes, just specific to those people, I mean, they really do have really good genetics. There's no question. But there's plenty of lay people that have genetics on par. So a lot of it is like what did you do with your – especially within the athletic realm, a lot of the athletic genes aren't that different. People think that these athletes just have crazy good genetics. A lot of their genetic advantage has to do with their diet. It doesn't have to do with their muscle fiber types or anything like that. Their muscles are pretty much the same as everybody else, but a lot of it has to do with how hard they worked and what they ate, which is a super big revelation because most people just assume they've got all these,

Starting point is 00:47:42 these muscle related genes that are giving them these advantages, and it's not true. A lot of them can deal with gluten really well. So they've just grown up being able to eat whatever they want and not have an issue with it. And that's really helped their performance in our crazy gluten-rich culture, our grain-rich culture, and a lot of things like that like dairy you know that it's more about what they've what their bodies can deal with in the diet that has allowed them to get away with doing stuff that most people can and then of course when you tell them like you know i have a dairy sensitivity or something like that they think it's kind of a joke because they don't experience that right you know doesn't mean it's not real, but they don't feel it. That's so interesting. I mean, I guess it's, it's good for like all of us sort of like,

Starting point is 00:48:27 you know, couch judges who are just like, oh, it's, you know, I could do that, but it's just their genetics. They just have these freakish genetics. And it's like, that's, I mean, you know, it matters, but it's not all of it. Right. It's like, it's what you do with the genetics you're given. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. It's a, it's it's a huge yeah and the epigenetics in terms of athleticism it's a huge advantage if you start at a young young age like i was just listening to joe rogan talk to andrew andy ruiz he was the heavyweight champion this last year for boxing yeah and he's from mexico and he's the first mexican to ever win the heavyweight title in boxing yeah and he made like headlines because he beat this dude who looked like this like

Starting point is 00:49:10 genetic perfect like ripped monster and he's kind of a little bit on the softer side and everyone kind of thought it was like just this amazing it's like amazing optics right because it's the guy that you wouldn't think would win yeah right. Right. Well, it's funny because this is such a common theme, but he started boxing when he was five years old. And he was competing in boxing when he was six. And that's super, super common with these high elite athletes, high performing elite athletes, because that's where you're changing your epigenetics you got to you really want to start young you know and then you've got a huge advantage like i my my dad taught me how to ice skate you know i grew up in minnesota and he taught me when i was two years old you know and i've done the same with my kids all of them we got them on ice at two

Starting point is 00:49:59 there's nothing like it like you know if i if i was to start skating when i was 16 you know there's almost no way you can catch up to in terms of the neurological you know just changes to the circuitry of how your muscles fire and when they fire and if you do it at a super young age you know that's such an yeah it's so true i think we talked about the last time we chatted that i you know i grew up in Canada, so I had the same experience, except I learned how to downhill ski, like as soon as I could walk, like my parents put me on skis and I went down the hill. And I think about it when, you know, my mom's from Bermuda. And I remember when I was in university and I had some friends who were, who came to Canada to go to school and

Starting point is 00:50:40 they were Bermudian. So they didn't experience snow and cold weather. And they like thought it would be fun to go to the ski, you know, ski hill and like learn how to ski one day. And I'm like, oh, you guys are in for such a rude awakening because learning this when you're an adult, yeah, your like brain is kind of set in certain ways and you haven't had this experience. It's so different. But I also love how this podcast is like, let's just, let's just put a disclaimer that we are not encouraging to put your six-year-old in competitive boxing matches or mutton riding i mean if you want to like i don't know maybe there's no there's no rules against it but we're not we seem very pro like putting very small children in um

Starting point is 00:51:16 potentially very dangerous sports like who how do you compete in boxing at six years old i mean is that happening in North America? But that's one of the reasons this guy is so exceptional. And I don't think, like, I definitely don't think, I mean, talking about brain injuries and things like that. Oh, my gosh. I mean, one of the reasons, what we found when we were doing that Alzheimer's research was that if you get these head injuries, it actually leads to. So, you know, Alzheimer's, it's two types of plaque in your brain you have amyloid it's called amyloid beta and then the other one is tau you have tau protein so you have two two different plaques you know two different types of plaque um in your brain um so people

Starting point is 00:51:58 know about plaque on their teeth you know they know about plaque in their arteries they know about plaque in the brain there's two different types amyloid and tau on your brain if you if you get these head injuries you don't get both of those types of plaque you but you do get one you get the amyloid plaque you get all kinds of amyloid build up so basically you have kind of a version of alzheimer's just from the head injuries so you definitely don't want that in a kid right i mean so yeah maybe there's there's an exceptional boxer but he if he's getting head injuries he's also setting himself up for a lifetime of you know sub-optimal brain performance um so the head is really important to not mess around with so it's more of an example

Starting point is 00:52:39 of you know like if you want to be a really incredible alex honnold type rock climber you know you got to start super young like every example of these just like world-class elite performers it's not usually like some huge genetic advantage in fact almost never except for these guys that are like seven foot tall or something and even those guys now i'm wondering if they're not on growth hormone or something and even then then, it's usually still a mix. If you look at Alex Honnold's a good example because they've done testing on his brain and his amygdala doesn't fire unless he's on the top of a mountain with no straps. And so he's got a kind of different brain.

Starting point is 00:53:18 And then you look at people like Michael Phelps, who I believe, I don't know his whole story, but I think he's probably been swimming for a pretty long time. But he also has definite physical and genetic advantages. So it's usually, it's like always a mix. It's never like, there's never a story where someone becomes elite or best in the world just because they're so genetically gifted that they sort of fall into it. Like it's always a combination of both. Yeah. When you're talking number one in the world but to just get to be on the major league baseball team or the nfl football team or whatever you don't have to be the number one in the absolute world of all time type thing right so yeah there's it's definitely a necessity to have weird

Starting point is 00:53:59 weirdly long arms to beat michael phelps the young. But, but yeah, I mean, it's funny because you don't have to do crazy mutton busting. Like I also have a slack line in my front yard. It's like a strap I hooked up between two trees, super tight with his ratchet. I do it and my kids do it all the time. So they're developing their balance, you know, so there's things you can do with your kids to to kind of promote balance and things that are just going to apply to every sport

Starting point is 00:54:31 yeah you know absolutely what are some that's that's sorry that's something i recommend for everybody what are some things that you are either seeing or paying attention to or looking for in the DNA, in the data for women versus men? Like, is there, is it different? Is there anything specific that you need to watch out for both sides? Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, of course there's bone density issues that women are more concerned about than men. You know, if you've got weak bones, there's a, there's about four or five genes relating to weak bones or strong bones. And if you're a man and you got weak bones, it's not that big of a deal. It might necessitate some extra vitamin D and extra calcium and things. Even though our culture

Starting point is 00:55:17 is kind of over calcified, we have too much calcium and not enough magnesium for the most part. But if you've got those weak bone genes, it's probably worth hitting up some calcium. But for women, it's a lot bigger concern because you can end up with osteoporosis. So you want to start the calcium until a lot younger age and be more religious about it because basically the concerns are bigger. The risks are higher.

Starting point is 00:55:43 Another example would be estrogen because there's so many different estrogen genes. And for men, you see a lot of those genes relating to prostate cancer. If you've got issues with your, like a lot of estrogen signaling with your alpha receptor, estrogen receptor alpha, as opposed to estrogen receptor beta, you know, it leads to a lot of prostate cancer in men. But if in women, there's no issue there. But in women, oftentimes you see the breast cancer risks if they've got too much estrogen. So it's like a different, a different set of genes, but, you know, totally different, totally different risks in men and women. And there's other things too, but those are like the real obvious examples that I'm just thinking of off the top of my head. And so once someone has a consultation with you and you go through whatever challenges or issues or things that they should be paying attention to, do you officially prescribe like, here is my recommendation for like the supplementation you should do and the lifestyle factors that you should address? And do you just kind of like send them off with this plan or how

Starting point is 00:56:49 does that work? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I don't call it a prescription because that's medical terminology and I certainly don't use drugs, although, you know, I encourage them to work with their doctor in certain situations where they might need a prescription for something, or they should check into it, you know, because you can find things that you know you might want to get your blood checked and look into a prescription but that's really really rare you know our ancestors didn't need to do that we shouldn't need to do that it's it's more about here's what your diet should be here's what your training might you probably are more optimal if you do a five by five routine

Starting point is 00:57:25 instead of a three by ten or whatever you know and so yeah i definitely give people suggestions and they're totally free to do it to totally ignore all of them or do some of them or cherry pick but but yeah i mean for me it's here's here's the information do it that what you will it's a knowledge is power thing you know like if don't know, you're not going to do anything, but once you know, you at least have the option to do those things. And that's what the option I'm giving people. Do you have many clients or people that you work with that come back to you, like maybe six months later and do like any, like any, yeah, testing or like retesting and benchmark testing like how does that does that often show like significant changes oh yeah for sure i get testimonials all the time and some people i ask

Starting point is 00:58:12 them because um some people pay for follow-ups and they want me to continue to work for them or work with them although that's not usually what i you know it's a pretty bad business model but i usually like to just tell people here's what what your DNA says. And again, you can do with it what you will, but I'm not a coach. You know, I'm not like every day I want to talk to you on the phone and when you're at the gym and go through your, yeah, that's a lot. Yeah. So my business isn't as sustainable in that regard because it's kind of a one-time client thing but it's okay because i have so many people that are interested in that information and they spread the word it's amazing how many people have their families do it and their extended families and their their coaches or whatever um so from the business perspective, it's perfectly fine, even though the model doesn't sound very sustainable.

Starting point is 00:59:15 No, but yeah, I mean, some people I ask them to do a follow up or I ask them, keep me posted on this specific gene. Like, for example, kratom. Yeah, kratom is. Yeah, it's basically a painkiller type of a tree it's a tree in indonesia but the leaf you can make a tea or you can take it as a supplement and it it acts on your opioid mu receptor mu like letter so there's different opioid receptors and one of them is called the opioid mu receptor and that one it's it's a good target compared to something like Vicodin, because if you use Kratom, it's a lot less addictive. Maybe not addictive at all. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:59:48 But certainly less addictive than a lot of the other opioids. And it still kills pain. So if you're struggling with daily pain, for a lot of people, it's worth trying. But there's a gene issue you can have with that opioid mu receptor. But there, of course, hasn't been studies, right? Because kratom isn't that accepted among scientists. People are looking for prescription drugs. They're not looking for natural supplements that are cheap.

Starting point is 01:00:20 They want to patent things and make a lot of money. But I have a hunch that if you've got a problem with your opioid mu receptor, then kratom is not going to work as well for you. Right. But I don't know that for sure. I can just say, this is what it looks like to me, but let me know, like send me an email in a few months if you're going to try kratom and just tell me how it works or whatever. And I kind of learned things that way. And there's a lot of examples,

Starting point is 01:00:45 but the Kratom example is just one that comes to mind. So it's kind of an ongoing process of learning things that aren't even published just based on people's personal experience and looking at their genes. And that's a really powerful tool. I like, I love that. I think that's one of the reasons I do what I do because I'm learning every single day. What do you think about the telomere testing? Like, do you think that that's accurate? Or? Oh, yeah, I mean, it's as accurate as most lab tests. Could it be though, and I just I just want to interrupt because I did this once

Starting point is 01:01:16 and I got a really bad result. And my question is, could it be something where like, if I'm in the middle of training for an event or something and i'm i'm you know prepping for in a way that's not sustainable or that's going to be extra stressful on my body it's going to give me a different result than three months later when i'm not no longer training is hard and my like lifestyle is a lot more chill like is it going to tell me that my telomere age or whatever is like 15 years younger once I'm done my training. Like how does, how? Yeah. Okay. Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. It changes all the time. Right. And it changes fast and that's a good thing. You know, it's a good thing to be able to change your telomere length real quickly

Starting point is 01:01:54 and upgrade it. It doesn't mean the test is bad. It just means that your body is able to change the length of your telomeres pretty quickly. In fact, I literally have three of those telomeres tests here on my desk. I have to do them. I'm going to do all three at the same time. And the reason I haven't done it yet is I want to do a video. Well, I want to video the whole thing and just to show people like, look, I did these all in the same day, you know, and the results will be almost identical. But if I did them like one on one in August and then September and then October or something like that, then they would be real variable based on what I was doing in my, in the gym and then my stress levels and all of the different things, sleep. And from that

Starting point is 01:02:37 perspective, it's a good tool because you can track, you know, how well you're doing. If you're really consistent, like people like us, right? Like, especially you, because you're lifting and then you're, you're kind of going in these phases, right. Of like real extreme and then kind of more relaxed than real extreme. Well, it's harder to, to measure your telomeres and trust it because, you know, you're, it's going to change so very, it's going to change so widely, but for somebody who's like really got a routine you know they just go to work every day they come back they hang out with their kids whatever and they have this real specific routine well then it's useful because they can do their telomeres and then make a diet change and then check the telomeres another month later a couple months

Starting point is 01:03:21 later and see if that's in the right direction. But I think there's better ways to do it. You know, I, I like it from a scientific perspective of doing studies, and less for an individual, you know, perspective of self assessing and biohacking. You know, I like blood tests for that. What would you say? I know, this is very general, a general question. But what would you say are the biggest, either the biggest issues that you're seeing with your clients or the, or the most frequently given advice in terms of lifestyle factors for most of the people who are coming to you? Like, is it nobody's getting good enough sleep?

Starting point is 01:03:58 Is it that people are still eating too much processed food? Maybe people are eating too much protein, not enough protein. Like what are you seeing most commonly yeah um let me think well vitamin d is always low if you're not supplementing vitamin d they've done studies on tribes like hunter-gathering tribes and the average person is around 100, um, nanograms per mil or whatever the units are 100. And the average American is 30. And if you have some, if you have, and a lot of people have vitamin D genetic issues and theirs is even lower if they're not supplementing. I mean, it's pathetic, right? And if you go in and you get a 30 on your blood test, the doctors

Starting point is 01:04:42 will tell you you're normal. They say it's fine because so many people come in on those numbers. So it's like almost for sure everyone should supplement vitamin D irrespective of your genetic. The other big one is iodine, actually. A lot of people have genes relating to issues with iodine. Some people even have a joint, like issues or risks relating to osteoarthritis, you know, joint degradation where your joints kind of fall apart, your soft tissue kind of breaks down. And then you've got bones rubbing on bones. That's osteoarthritis. And it's related to an iodine dependent gene. It's called the iodinase.ase so and then of course the the thyroid right a lot of people like a huge

Starting point is 01:05:27 amount of people have some thyroid gene or other that's suboptimal and they need to supplement iodine that's one i think almost everybody should supplement iodine because we're not eating seafood the way our ancestors were at least according to the dna and the salt's just not cutting it you know iodized salt or sea salt or whatever with all the microplastics in it. So we should also be eating a lot more oysters, right? Dark chocolate and oysters basically. And liver. Oh yeah. Yeah. You can get it. I mean, that sounds like a pretty good diet to me. I like all of those things. I mean, it sounds, yeah, there's a lot worse diets out there. I mean, we just need to create a snappy name for it. Like the liver, oysters, and chocolate diet.

Starting point is 01:06:08 We've got to figure out a way to make that sound a little bit sexier. Well, and I've thought about this long and hard because I think kids probably have slightly different diets than adults should and than elderly people should. You know, the the igf1 levels are optimal at different ranges at different ages and there's all kinds of indicators that even your age will indicate a different diet for somebody slightly so there's no perfect diet for somebody especially when you factor in all their genes like that's why i'll never write like a diet book you know like the. J diet will never happen. Because if I did write a book, I'd basically say there is no diet that works for

Starting point is 01:06:50 everybody. Like you have to have variation, you know, like one diet, it's not going to work. You know, even even the carnivore diet, right, or something like that. It's not optimal for everybody or the vegan diet, right? Like these real extreme diets, you find people that say it's amazing for them and it's perfectly optimal for them and their situation. That doesn't mean it's optimal for everybody because I don't believe there is one diet. Well, in that case, I'll swoop in and take, we can call it the Ashley Van Houten, the muscle maven diet, and it will be chocolate and oysters and liver because yeah, that's not going to be ideal for everybody, but I think it probably would be a step up for most people. Yeah. I think that's pretty good,

Starting point is 01:07:27 but that makes me, um, actually that reminds me, I wanted to ask you at the beginning of our conversation about, cause you're saying, you know, people are kind of playing with this carnivore thing and it's something I'm seeing. And then I'm seeing a lot, like for some reason, like an alarming resurgence or just growth in people approaching the vegan diet again. I don't know if it's marketing or what's going on there. But what do you think about, like, what were your thoughts at KetoCon? What are your thoughts about that sort of like industry, the kind of growth of keto and carnivore in general?

Starting point is 01:07:56 Like what, because I, you know, I was happy to see you there. I hadn't actually met you in person until we met at KetoCon, but what were your thoughts? Like, what did, what were you hoping to get out of that show? Yeah. I mean, I, I love talking to these people on the sidelines and hearing the talks and all this. And, um, you know, I did a carnivore diet study, like a, a crowdsource study where I had people eat carnivore, um, and actually test their telomeres, right? Because there is evidence that if you eat a lot of processed meat, your telomeres shorten, like your lifespan effectively shortens, which is not good. But if you eat a lot of whole meats,

Starting point is 01:08:35 like steak and burgers and things, just the meat, not the bun, but eating whole meats actually lengthens your telomere. It, it, it ostensibly lengthens your lifespan. Um, so what I wanted to do is have these people that were going to do carnivore anyways, and actually have them test their telomeres before they did carnivore. And then after they did it for 90 days, um, and I actually had 10 people sign up. Like I had quite a few people, um, considering that they were basically independent, just helping me out. But every single one of them dropped out. I think going super strict carnivore is not sustainable for most people just in their normal routines and their –

Starting point is 01:09:16 Interesting. Just in terms of discipline and all this other stuff. I didn't – for the sake of that study, I refused to let people cheat, right? Like have an avocado or something like that. Like if you're going to do a hundred percent pure carnivore study, how long was it? How long was the study supposed to be for? And I was 90 days, which is a long time, but Sean Baker, basically I was going to just do it for 30 days, but Sean Baker's like, no, we got to do 90 or we're not going to have benefits yet. It takes

Starting point is 01:09:44 the full 90 days because he works with a lot of people that are doing the carnivore so i i changed it to 90 and then everybody really like and were people mostly saying like it's just because i just want to eat other food it's like a textural thing i'm getting bored like it wasn't necessarily a health reason it was just like i can't just eat only meat for 90 days it's too long no some like one of them sent me an email back and said like she's waking up in the middle of the night puking every night and was nauseous all day yeah and it's like you know you can kind of try and explain that based on you know like maybe you maybe had some diet habits that you're detoxing from or whatever, but still like you should. Do you know if for these individuals, like was the plan like strict carnivore, but like just red meat or could they eat any kind of meat? Like could they eat chicken and fish and seafood and things like that?

Starting point is 01:10:39 Okay. Yeah. Well, no, no, it was just red meat but so why did you go that route because this was i think i don't even know if i asked you this at keto com but i i definitely asked sean um dr baker i was like why like i guess maybe for ease of following rules people like the whole carnivore is just red meat thing because it's just easy to buy 10 pounds of steak a week and just go with that. But for me, because I've experimented with more carnivore resets. I haven't done it for 30 days or more at a time. I do it for a week after a vacation when I want to reset my satiety factor

Starting point is 01:11:17 and my glucose and all this kind of stuff. And I find it quite easy and quite pleasant and whatever, but I'm not doing it for a very long time. But I always, when I kind of go back to like a strict carnivore, if I just tried to do like a meat only diet, it's never just red meat. I'm always putting, yes, definitely nose to tail. Like I'll eat lots of chicken hearts and liver and tongue and heart and stuff like that because I enjoy that kind of stuff. But I'm also eating fish and seafood and chicken and pork and because it's better for, I mean, it's variety. It's like, it's more sustainable. It's more enjoyable. You're getting textural differences. Like, I don't know why more people aren't looking at the carnivore approach that way.

Starting point is 01:11:58 I think they are now. I think back when I did the study, it was just like, there's only a few people doing it and they were just eating steak every day and that's all they were eating. Which I was, I didn't restrict to just that, but I didn't want people eating chicken and birds, for example, because there is different. There's a lot of different aspects to that meat and it's going to change the study. Like the problem is if I had one person eating a lot of chicken every day and then the other person was eating steak every day they're going to have real different results and it's probably going to offset a lot of our findings so just from a purely like that would be a cool study if people just did carnivore with just birds or something like that you know but you know again it was just just purely for the data and from my perspective I didn't I don't think that's the optimal way to do it, where you just eat red meat and nose to tail from animals that have red meat.

Starting point is 01:12:49 I think the way you're approaching it is a lot healthier and a lot better, a lot more sustainable. But it was just, that was just, again, I didn't want to mess up the data and then have people coming back and saying, well, your data is useless because it's all over the place. All right. Well, I don't want to keep you too much longer. I could, but I know that you have a busy life. But I do want to kind of bring it back just really quickly to how we kind of came together in the first place, which was over your book, Astro Generation, which was really, I have it in front of me right now because it's a really, really interesting and useful and

Starting point is 01:13:22 helpful book. And it's written in a way that normal people can read it, which I appreciate. Because I get a lot of books sometimes for podcast research that I'm like, if I'm not a doctor, I can't get into this. And I think your book was really entertaining and accessible and cool. So I think that everyone should read this book. But it's also, it's pretty alarming too, right? Like it's talking about estrogenics and how they're making us all fat and sick and infertile and miserable and how just ubiquitous they are. Like they're in everything that we eat and put on our body and are exposed to every day,

Starting point is 01:13:54 which is scary. But also it's good because you have so much information on how to minimize it immediately. Like there are takeaways, how you can just right away start adjusting things in your household and in your diet and in the way you live your life that can immediately start cutting some of these problematic things in your life, which I think is great. But I guess one way to kind of bring this to the DNA consulting that you're doing, is there anything, is there a way that you're connecting this? Like, is there anything that you're doing, is there anything, is there a way that you're connecting this? Like, is there anything that you're seeing maybe in the data that you think is being affected

Starting point is 01:14:32 by the estrogenic situation? And like, are you combating that too? Like how does that come together? There's one, there's a couple of genes of course that are involved in estrogen processing there's a lot there's a few with testosterone and other things but there's one gene in particular it's called cyp1b1 and it's a liver enzyme and it's involved in breaking down xenoestrogens artificial estrogens and when men especially when men have bad versions of that gene, it's amazing how many, I mean, like a huge vast majority of them have gynecomastia, man boobs. And so for those people, I literally send them a free copy of my book when I do the DNA consults, because that's where you really need to understand and recognize, okay, here's these chemicals you've never avoided in your life. Now you need to start avoiding them super carefully. You have to get good personal care products, not just cheap ones.

Starting point is 01:15:33 You have to avoid sunscreen or get good sunscreens. You have to filter your drinking water. There are certain things. And I think everybody should do all of those things. But for the people that have that gene it's not even an option at least if they want to get rid of their gynecomastia right which most of them do yeah and some people are okay with it it's not ideal you know it's just and i guess it's one of those things like you were saying with like some athletes who just are sort

Starting point is 01:16:01 of a little bit genetically gifted in that like they can can eat McDonald's and still kind of perform pretty well. There are people who can use crappy estrogenic filled skincare products and like kind of be okay. And then there are some people who are super sensitive. And so this is, again, why the education part is key, because you'll know the things that you need to pay extra attention to. Because I think that's one of the things you mentioned this earlier. And I think it's something that is worth kind of thinking about as we close up here, because one of the downsides to having so much information is that it can be very overwhelming, right? Like people who are type A and interested and eager and want to learn and listen to all the podcasts. And you can sometimes finish like an interview like this and be like, oh my God, what do I do

Starting point is 01:16:41 now? Like there's so much, you know? And I think that one way to kind of bring it all back down and like, look at this objectively and clearly is, is to, there are steps and there are levels and there are things that are going to be more important to you than they are to me and vice versa. So it's not that tomorrow you have to do every single thing perfect and never touch a piece of plastic again and make sure you have the exact amount of iron and vitamin D and like all this stuff. It's like figuring out your body and what it's telling you and what it needs and to approach these things in a priority, you know, prioritize them, right? Like there are certain things that you're going to want to address before other things and focus on it that

Starting point is 01:17:20 way instead of becoming overwhelmed by the influx of information and things you need to do to have a perfect lifestyle. Yeah, there it is. Yeah. So eat more chocolate and filter your water and definitely reach out to Dr. J and get his book, Estrogeneration. I really highly recommend this book for anybody because again, it's full of information. It's also entertaining and it just gives you like real world stuff that you can do right away instead of just freaking out and thinking our world is just gross and full of plastic that's going to kill us.

Starting point is 01:17:52 It like gives you options, which I appreciate. So Dr. J, where can folks go if they want to like book a consultation with you, if they want to get your book, if they want to learn more? Okay. Yeah, it's ajconsultingcompany.com. That's pretty much it. And, or you can, you can type in ajcco.com. And what about social media? Are you, are you pretty, okay. Okay. Yeah. Instagram is my favorite. Instagram is where i spend actual time usually the other ones got it

Starting point is 01:18:26 okay cool well thank you very much for your time i'm gonna have to get you back again so we can maybe dive deeper into some of this brain cutting and virus creating that you that you've done because i feel like those would be very colorful podcasts all on their own all right thanks oh yeah yeah thanks for having me actually it's fun always and that's all folks all on their own. All right, thanks. Oh, yeah. Yeah, thanks for having me, Ashley. It's fun. Always. And that's all, folks.

Starting point is 01:18:50 Thank you, as always, for listening and learning with me. And I am definitely going to have Dr. J interpret and talk to me about my DNA. So please stay tuned for that because I'm mildly afraid for what he's going to find, but information is power, right? So I'll keep you posted on that. And if you enjoy the episode,

Starting point is 01:19:13 please, as always, share it with someone who could benefit, share it on social media, tag Shrugged Collective, tag me at The Muscle Maven so that we can tell that you liked it and see what you thought and hopefully start a real conversation. So that's it. Thanks again to my friends at ButcherBox and Beekeepers for keeping the show alive and running. I want to support them like they support me. And I want you guys to have awesome stuff from companies doing great things. So check out the show notes for all the links and all the discounts to both of these companies and all the great stuff that you can get. Go out and treat yourself. And that's all.

Starting point is 01:19:47 Have a great week, everybody.

Barbell Shrugged - Don’t Blame It On Genetics: Dr. Anthony Jay Tells Us How To Work With, Instead of Against, Our Genes — Muscle Maven Radio Episode #28

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