Barbell Shrugged - Episode 23 - Pose Running and CrossFit, Endurance, Carb Cycling, Race Day Nutrition

Episode Date: August 28, 2012

Pose Running and CrossFit, Endurance, Carb Cycling, Race Day Nutrition

Hey guys, this is CTP with Barbell Shrug. For the video version of all these podcasts, go to our website, fitter.tv. That's F-I-T-R dot TV. Check out the video version of all of them. They're a lot cooler. They're super juicy and tasty. Are we opening with a story about your pants? Can you see my nuts?

I can see your nuts. At least one of them. Can you see my nuts? Can you see my nuts? Can you see my nuts? Can we get a big zoom in, zoom out, zoom in, zoom out of Mike's nuts to open the show? Totally uncomfortable. Nice pants.

That reminds me of Incheepshin from South Park. See that episode? Incheepshin. Based on Incheepshin? Yeah. I don't know if I remember that one. That was really good. Did you watch the Tea Party one yet? Which one? The South Park. No, no, sorry, do, do. Based on Inception? Yeah. I don't know if I remember that one. That was really good. Did you watch the Tea Party one yet?

Which one? The South Park. No, no, sorry. The Family Guy. Family Guy. No, I didn't watch that. The Tea Party episode. No, I didn't watch that.

I think you would just eat that episode up. Probably. I don't know. We'll have to watch it and see. All right. We're here. This is Barbell Shrugged, Strength and Conditioning Podcast. I'm Mike Bledsoe here with the other host, Doug Larson.

You bet. Chris Moore. Yo. We have our guest, Von Rawls. Hi. Ultra marathoner. Sounds very fancy, doesn't it? It does.

It does sound fancy. Some people run marathons. I run ultra marathons. Which means? Just like a normal marathon, just so much harder. I don't even want to talk to you about just marathons. means like a normal marathon just so much harder i don't even want to talk to you about just marathons i also prefer endurance athlete endurance athlete okay uh but not like the lance armstrong kind

i'm clean man you're saying lance armstrong's not clean bro you're saying he's guilty is that what you're saying i'm saying i don't care oh okay the uh we've been i've been getting some interesting feedback um in regard to uh the podcast that we did with dr andy galpin i think that was number 19 uh the one i wasn't here for uh i've been getting some a lot of questions about references to the the leg power studies he's talking about and in regard to heart health. So if you want to see those references, go to fitter.tv, click on Barbell Shrug, click on that specific blog post, and in the comments, I posted the references.

So I've had a lot of people going, you know, that sounds really interesting, but where are the references? So they're posted down there for you to see. Lest you think we were just making shit up on this podcast. The answer is no, we have references for what we're talking about. I realize a lot of people are watching this on YouTube or listening to it on iTunes. So they may not be visiting the website and getting all the information. So go there to make sure you're getting all the information.

Make sure to check out the shop. See the seminars that are popping up. Chris Moore's Simple Strength. Quite a few people have bought those, and we've gotten some really positive feedback. We got one from the UK and one from New Zealand. So worldwide. Global.

Global harmonization better americans better start buying it up or those new zealanders will pass us up they're gonna be they'll be winning all the golds yeah all right so von um what's uh let's introduce you a little bit your story you did not start off training as an endurance athlete you started training just to be uh when you started hardcore i started as a fat guy yeah you're like you want to make like a lifestyle change yeah and then you came and visited us and then kind of tell people like about your journey a little bit uh yeah i started uh i was probably uh 200 pounds maybe a little more, really fat, and just got tired

of that whole situation, and luckily found the perfect gym. Sick and tired of being sick and tired. Yeah, exactly. And started training CrossFit Memphis in the old location. Then I lost all my weight, and I got down to like 170 pounds. Where did you start at? 200, 205, something like that. How long did that take?

Drop 35 pounds like that? Probably four or five months. Oh, really? I didn't realize it was that fast. It was fast. I've only been doing this for three years. Yeah. I've known you guys three years.

Okay. In October, actually. October the 16th was my first workout at CrossFit Memphis in 2009. Vaughn is a great example of a compliant client. So someone who comes in and says, what should I do? And I tell him what to do, and he does it. and he gets excellent results.

I find that most people who don't get the best results in the world, it's because they're not very compliant. They're not like checking in every week and going, what do I do next? The clients come back every week and go, what should I do next? I'm doing this. What should I do next? And I keep telling them, next up. And they just kill it.

So compliance might have something to do with it well i've i was in a unique situation in that i had never trained like to be a runner i never trained to be i didn't know anything about training really you know so so were you doing any training before you came to us not really i did the couch to 5K thing. So I was out walking and running. Like it's the whole, that whole thing is walk for 90 seconds, run for 60 or whatever. And so that I did. Is that a program? Yeah.

It's a pretty popular program. Oh, really? I never heard of that one. Couch to 5K. Yeah. Me neither. Most people that do 5Ks for the first time follow that program. Oh, wow.

It's like an easy thing that you can just do so so they'll they'll put you out there like three or four times a week walking with a mix of walking and running for like 30 minutes people can just google couch to 5k yeah you find that okay yeah and and it gets a little boring like i did it for like a month or two and got to my first 5k but but i i wasn't following the program anymore like i was out there walking one day i was like well i can probably run a little more than 60 seconds sure you know so but it got you off the couch yeah well it got me off the couch but uh i never broke like 30 minutes in a 5k in fact i the second i ran the gibson guitar 5k uh I guess, maybe 2007 or 2008.

And I was destroyed at the end of it. At the end of it, there's this hill that comes up from Riverside. And it's that nasty hill, Bill Street. You know what I'm talking about? It goes under the bridge. Yeah. So at the end of that race, I was just completely toast. Yeah.

It was awful. And that probably finished like 30 minutes. I bet at the end of that race, you would, you would never thought a couple of years later, you'd be running races over 10 times as long. No, absolutely not.

Well, what's the longest race you ran now? 50 mile, 50 mile. How many kilometers is that compared to a 5k? How many kilometers? Uh, 50 K six,

70, 70 something. So you're looking at, you know, 14, 15 times as long as your, as your 5k. How many kilometers? 50K, 670. 70-something. So you're looking at 14, 15 times as long as your 5K? Yeah. That's pretty incredible. 5K is three miles. Okay. 20 times.

5K is 3.1. I'm not good at math. We need a little 17 times as long. 10 is 30 miles. Okay. 10 times a 5K. It doesn't times 5 it doesn't matter it is a long way Doug 50 miles is a long way

we did one marathon one time and that just destroyed me I can't imagine running almost twice as long that took away all my will to do that ever again yeah so actually no I didn't even really want to run i mean i was running to to try to lose weight and and it just wasn't working and so that's when i got when i

got frustrated and came here or to crossfit memphis faction uh and started training uh rob rob connor kind of pushed me into running and i was like, I think I might go do a 10K. And he was like, no, you're going to go do a 50K. I was like, what? You're crazy. Who is this guy? I like it. Rob's raising expectations. And then he's like, yeah.

And then after that, you'll go run a 50 mile race on the beach. Rob is also the coach that I left for a weekend. And I come back and everyone was like, we ran 10K and then we did other stuff for the WOD. I'm like, what? I haven't heard that. People still talk about it. It was like two years ago. Yeah.

So anyway, after, I guess it was probably three months or so, I ran my first half marathon, my first 10K, then half marathon and uh then moved then moved up to the marathon we did saint jude we were on my first marathon which was awesome i finished that in 350 yeah which is which is pretty good that's a great time for the first time that's very i mean most people don't break four hours yeah we know and how'd you feel at the end of that marathon compared to the end of the 5k you were talking about earlier well i was i was pretty pretty wasted were you wrecked yeah yeah but but that's that's what does that mean for you like when i said after the marathon i felt wrecked like my feet feel like they like beat with a hammer like that's what i thought people feel

all kinds of different no it wasn't that bad i I mean, I was in the gym the next day. Oh, yeah. So I was in the gym. You probably don't remember, but you made me come to the gym. You were like, oh, open gym on Sunday. Come. Well, I had you do some recovery stuff. It wasn't hardcore training.

No, no, right. We worked through full range of motion. I mean, you just did 26 miles of really small range of motion over and over again. Let's get your hips and everything moving again. Nothing hard. Nothing. No, no,

no, no. We, I was in there. We did the hit the foam roller mobility work. We did some kettlebell swings and that was it. Okay. Yeah.

Right. So were you sore at all? Or were you, I was a little sore. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but as the more races I've done,

like for instance, uh, the second 50 miler i did this past april i felt great yeah when i was done i felt great and last year or the first one the first one the first one i did you're probably right uh i was i was a wreck at the end of it i was emotionally wrecked yeah physically wrecked yeah i was coming across the finish line like almost crying i was like i can't believe i just did this and i didn't think i was gonna make it yeah you know i didn't think i was gonna finish that race which race is this the first 50 mile race okay you thought you're gonna die no i didn't think i don't think i'm gonna make it i didn't think i was gonna die but i didn't

think i was gonna finish the race i mean or if you don't make certain'm going to make it. I didn't think I was going to die, but I didn't think I was going to finish the race. If you don't make certain checkpoints by a certain time, they tell you you can't go on anymore. If you don't finish in 13 hours at this particular race, watch it all. I felt that way running 400 meter spreads before. I'm not going to make it. Send word

to my family. Anyway, if you don't finish in 13 hours at this particular race you don't get the medal you know you don't you didn't really finish so it was important to get under that that mark for me anyway and at the end of it i wasn't the last person to finish the race but i was pretty close to the end and like there's like random people but at this time walking through the park on the trail like a husband and wife and their two kids. And I like come up behind him and I'm like,

you're kind of in my way. Could you move so I can finish this race? But it was that. So I was, I was, you know, call this recreation. Right.

And so fast forward a year later and at the same point I was strong i was strong i felt good you know uh finished the race really really strong and ready you know coming to the finish line my son was there he was running with me it's like i'll beat you so it was awesome like i felt great i felt strong and it's like somebody give me a beer you know i feel good and i couldn't wait to get back to the gym. So I'm not saying I didn't feel it. I mean, I felt bad, but I didn't feel near as bad as I did the year before. That's good. And it was an hour faster.

An hour faster? Yeah. Wow. Very nice. But you felt like you could have gone harder. You felt really good. So you probably could have gone a little bit faster. Yeah, I probably should have gone harder.

That's something I'm trying to learn. Learning the pace of a 50 miler, that's got to be pretty difficult to figure out you know um yeah i didn't go over this at the very beginning so i'll do it now uh obviously we're gonna be talking about endurance a bit since we have von as a guest but we're gonna be uh talking about endurance nutrition uh low carb for endurance athletes carb cycling and then we'll talk about uh training specifically for endurance uh and then how to train for like ultra marathons without getting injured i guess that's a common common thing is a lot of a lot of people are

training uh and just getting hurt during training so that's no good let's go ahead and roll right into endurance nutrition uh we have a pretty strong uho philosophy at Faction, and we promote it pretty heavily. We're not 100% paleo in that we still, our post-workout shakes, some of our supplementation is not paleo. So it's whey protein, Gatorade, things like that. So it's not that we just kind of think, oh, paleo is the end-all, be like that. So it's not that, it's not that we, we just kind of think, oh, paleo is the end all be all. But for the most part, it's, it's really good because it's promoting really, um, high quality meat, uh, high quality protein, high quality carbs and high quality fats. So, uh, it really has nothing to do with, you know, uh, it has everything to do with just finding

the best foods and nothing to do with if it fits into the paleo category or not. We're not following a cult mentality where we just shut up and do it because HQ. HQ says it's good. Well, actually, HQ doesn't. They promote the Zen, which nobody does. That's stupid shit. I'll tell you why it's stupid. If you're sitting around in your kitchen measuring out massive amounts of units like strawberries, oh, I need five blocks of strawberries.

Instead of just eating some strawberries, you're an asshole. Just eat some strawberries, okay? Is that not enough for you? I never counted calories or measured my food or anything like that. It should be it should be intuitive enough once you once you understand some basic philosophy like filling your plate from veggies and if there's a little corner packing the rest of that full of good meat and some fat then you're good to go yeah so way too much time thinking about this stuff and way too

little time just training yep i got a lot of people yeah a lot of people make that that's a common mistake is people over analyzing training and nutrition and not just doing it yeah go lift the weight stop thinking about why you're doing it like that's my job your job is lift weight um in regard to the the lower carb stuff you do paleo which is technically lower carb than what most westerners and what most endurance athletes do uh i i get a lot of uh pushback initially from a lot of endurance athletes come in the gym they're like where do you get the carbs from so uh you eat low carb pretty much all the time it's just meat and veggies eat some fruit, which is a little bit higher in carbohydrate. But then most of your nutrition for carbohydrate intake is happening during and after training.

That's right. So what do you do for that? Well, I do take goo during the race. Uh, I have a, what is that dude? It's,

it's calories really. I think is the, it's just like, it's like sugar syrup. Yeah. Those little packages of like condensed. It's like sugar syrup yeah those little packages of like condensed it's like pudding shoving your mouth yeah yeah it it sometimes it's nasty and that's during is right you're not doing goo when you go run for an hour no you're doing this is

race race race and if i'm training like for like if i run more than like 13, 15 miles. I'm trying not to make goo jokes right now. I'm trying not to make goo jokes. So probably if you're training for longer than two hours, that's when you start breaking into that type of stuff. Right. Yeah, you just, I guess you need it. I mean, I don't really know. So I know it might be important to point out that if you are a recreational runner

and you go out for a mile run on Sunday morning, you probably don't need to be eating goo. That's true, yeah. It's like what most people think of Gatorade as, I'm thirsty and I went for a walk, so I'll drink 82 ounces of Gatorade because that's what you do, right? Right. And that's not what you do.

Well, this is interesting because you're like, I guess, but every athlete's going to be different. There are some, you sent me an article, some athletes can eat almost no carbohydrate. Right. They're low carb for a 100-mile race and do really well. Oh, yeah. But most people would not.

So it's going to be different from person to person, and you're kind of probably still figuring out at what point you actually do need something like this. Right, so that's where I am now. So when I first started running, I never did any of that kind of stuff. I had my workout shake, first marathon. Halfway through, you were there to give me a workout shake, and that's what I needed. And I grabbed a goo from like an aid station or something just because somebody's standing there handing it out yeah

the shake i gave you is probably a four to one ratio of carbohydrate to whey protein and it was gatorade and whey protein right that's all it was right so it's probably somewhere around 80 grams of carbs and 20 grams of protein and that probably made you feel like a million bucks. Right. Halfway through. Really. I mean, you get to,

I get to that point where God, I feel like crap. I should eat something, you know? So now I know, now I know when, when that's going to be coming. Like,

so I know that like eight, nine miles, I should have eaten something. Be it a goo or a peanut butter and jelly sandwich or something. I should have eaten some food. Does that make sense? Yep. So now I know like my legs, my legs are about to start cramping.

I need to, I should have eaten a S cap or had some. What is that? S cap. It's like a sodium pill. Sodium pill? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay.

This is really interesting. I mean, this is something that you can only figure out through experience. I'm sure you've talked to other people and kind of find out when they do certain things. Right. And obviously you're going to respond. And do you find that you respond differently if the temperature is different? If it's dead heat in summer

is it different than like running in the winter I don't usually run in the summer this year I went on a run in June at Shelby Forest and it was horrible and I swore I'm never going to do this again based on my personal experience

and empirical analyses yes it sucks to run in summer i get bit by i get bit by a horsefly and my legs swelled up and it was awful man and i'm never i don't i'm not gonna do that again okay um what uh so what do you do for when you say you come in the gym and you do just crossfit or you're doing doing the program I gave you, you drink post-workout shake, what's that look like? Yeah, it's a scoop away. I guess it's probably 35 grams of protein and a very small amount of Gatorade.

Okay. I think, I don't know the exact grams, but. Like half a scoop? Like one to one. A third of a scoop? About one to one. A third of a scoop, maybe. And then during your run training, you do more Gatorade or about the same?

About the same. Okay. And to note, the majority of his run training is extremely short duration, like 200s and 400s. Yep. And one long run on the weekend where you might be actually taking goo in on top of workout shakes and stuff. If it's a long run.

If it's a long run. If it's like 15 or 20 miles which i don't get to do that very much but von always wants to run more than i want him to run yeah um so what's an example of the intervals you just talked about the 200s and 400s um i'll have them run say eight 200s uh with a one minute break in between each 200. Who's that? Oh, that's our time. And then 400s, he'll maybe run between four and eight 400s with a two- to three-minute break in between each one.

Right, but these are on the same day that I'm also training. Right. Training in the morning, and then I'll do these after or in the evening or something. So Vaughn's training program looks like he always has a strength component, some kind of speed component. And this is in the gym. Strength, speed, and then some kind of conditioning component. A lot of it's very CrossFit-ish. Not all of it.

And then later on that day, so he does that five days a week. And then on Tuesdays and Thursdays, he'll go in the afternoons and run some really fast sprints. And then one day on the weekend, he'll do a long run. And that could be anywhere between 5K and 20 miles. Okay. So for the day, like the five-day week program where he does the speed work strength work and all the other stuff you mentioned you want to give again an example of that sure um uh right now we're really focused on strength so he's doing more more squatting like

i'll have him squat before he does any kind of olympic lift and olympic lift would be kind of like the speed power type stuff so um he and he's getting a lot of speed work on the track also uh just to note that uh so he might be doing power cleans or snatches or something like that uh so he'll do a squat or press or something like that first then he'll do a uh he'll do a uh an olympic lift and we kind of been playing around i've been playing a little bit around with doing Olympic lifts, um, say every minute on the minute. So something kind of a density training type,

uh, approach, um, on, on, uh, the Olympic lifts. And then,

so like, like 70% for, for a double every minute on the minute, 10 minutes. So 70% would be like, you would do like a triple at 70% every minute on the minute for eight, eight to 10% would be like, you would do like a triple at 70% every minute on the minute for 8 to 10 minutes. Okay.

So stuff like that. So stuff that's, he's not going to reach like high peak power, but it's going to be close enough. So mostly working on, you know, speed and repetitive speed. So something that's going to be good for if he's running up a hill. So those squats and those Olympic lifts are going to help him to be faster at the end of the race, be faster up hills. He's noted many times that he'll hit a hill and everyone starts walking and he's like kind of trotting past them, which is nice. And I'll say, you should be squatting.

Yeah, I attribute that to his strength. That's definitely not an endurance issue. He has more capacity for putting out more power so um that probably has a little bit of nutrition as well um and then um yeah he does a little bit of conditioning and that's usually just to build up a lot of uh muscular endurance so that make him more durable so that's kind of how we approach training five days a week and then he only runs three days a week and two of those days that he's running it's only 200s and 400s he's really not he's running like one mile training on those two days so he's running

two miles of sprints a week and then he might only run a 5k that weekend so i mean compared to other ultra marathoners that's really low volume your total road work is is really really really incredibly small compared to just about anybody else who is training for any sort of race yeah and i noted last year uh at the end of the year like in december end of december all the all my running friends were posting on Facebook about, well, I got to 2013 miles this year or whatever. And so I thought, well, that's interesting. Maybe I should calculate how many miles I ran.

So I started thinking about it. And number one, I can remember every run that I did, right? The whole year. Anything that wasn't a sprint. You're talking about like... Anything that wasn't a sprint. Yeah. So I calculated up, the whole year. Anything that wasn't a sprint. You're talking about like... Anything that wasn't a sprint. Yeah. So I calculated up and

this includes a marathon, a 50K, and a 50 miler and I only ran like 250 miles. So you ran like 10% of what these other guys were running. Right. So that is pretty strong evidence that you don't have to put in

multiple thousands of miles a year in order to be able to do well at an ultra marathon type competition. You would think that you'd have to at least practice more to do that. And this is clearly a case where that's completely not necessary. Right. Is it 100% optimal? I don't know. considering your very well balanced set of adaptations, your, your ability to also, you know, deadlift a lot of weight where,

right. How many other people are running 2000 miles a year could, could deadlift even 300 pounds. I wonder if there's even any of them. Very few. I mean, I don't care about winning the race. Uh,

I don't really care that much about how fast it is or how fast i finish the race uh but i find that i am competitive in my age group like i'm not at the i'm not gonna win my age group but i have been in races where i'm not necessarily you're also running against people who are really good runners because these aren't like small scale races and they're not a ton of these competitions around the country i would guess so if you're a really talented runner it's like going to a national level weightlifting competition you're going to run into guys who are just really good runners so there's no shame in not winning of course but you can also not train like them and also give up the the skill to them and still do really well that's saying quite a lot about your

approach to training right i think that's really awesome and i'm not getting injured which is a big deal no that was one of the things that people it's almost like if you want to start to jump into but yeah it's almost like you went to usa nationals usa w nation, they told people, yeah, I trained for this by running. And I've lifted, oh, maybe 1,000 pounds this year total. And I placed five out of seven people or whatever. That'd be really amazing. That'd be shockingly amazing. It's kind of what you do when we're running.

Well, I don't know that I placed that high. Just as an example. I'll tell people about that. You ran a 50k and then you ran a 50 miler last year and you had what you had logged seven miles of running in between the two races and they were like two months apart right that was yeah tell that real quick so we uh kind of made a big deal about that james was with me on the race and so he was telling everybody that he encountered he was like hey you see that guy he ran he only ran seven miles between this is like february to april so the 50k was in february 50 mile in april and i did a seven mile run and you ran one time once i ran i ran you ran once in like two or three months i ran to prep for a 50 mile race once

and uh and i i had set out to do i had set out to do more uh but i was not feeling well i was i was at tour de wolf and like i got through seven miles and i just felt like crap and i said uh screw it i'm going home i don't feel like doing this. And I went home, and that was the only run I ended up doing. And so the race director at the end of the race. So it wasn't even a good one. It was a completely shitty training session. It was horrible. And the race director came over, and she was like,

I do not recommend anybody running only seven miles to do this. And I suggest before next year you add some mileage to your training shut up whatever show your face wait that was the one you made the little documentary off of yeah a little documentary preview right yeah i love that video dude if i'm if i'm ever just kind of like i don't know if like kind of down about about going out and training like i need to like put myself up a little bit i can watch that video and be like fuck it i'm gonna go train right now oh yeah i watch it like once a day do you all the 1500 views they're all me this is a cool video post some sort of link to that yeah well we could probably edit some of that in yeah all right uh

let's take a break real quick and we'll come back and we'll talk a little bit a little bit more about uh nutrition uh we'll talk about carb cycling specifically. And then I think we kind of already touched on training for an ultra without injury, but we can get a little more into that, I guess. All right. He posted, it was late the other night. Yeah. He posted on Twitter, like,

was I the only kid in like the early 90s that was wearing JNCOs? And I was like, oh yeah, I had a pair. It was all about some JNCOs back in the day. And he tweeted back, i was like oh yeah i had a pair it was all about some jinkos back in the day and he goes and he tweeted back he was like uh do you have any pictures and i was like no i burned those i had a pair but i burned those pictures they'll probably resurface if i run for for office ever run for office pictures of jinkos coming out he wore jinkos oh we can't vote for him yeah right everybody

vote for you they'll be like that's what i did he's just like me only the cool people he understands my needs all right we're back uh we're gonna talk a little bit about um actually i want i want doug to go into because he he has a really excellent explanation of the different types of carbohydrates and how they react in your body. You put me on the spot. I wasn't prepared for this. You perform best when I put you on the spot. That's what I heard. I think it's the other way around.

It's the other way around. You're supposed to put me on the spot. You don't like to rehearse things. I hate rehearsals. You get all flustered when you have to rehearse things. What are you going to say, Mike? I don't know. just turn the camera on all right so yeah i want to i want to talk about that before we get into carb cycling and i'll

kind of we've already talked about carbohydrates during races and stuff like that so i just kind of want it people kind of think about carbs and they hear carbs and think rice, bread, pasta. So I want you to talk a little bit about the type of carbs you might want to eat during, you know, pre, during and post-workout and training and stuff like that. Okay. If you're trying to stay paleo, you have your kind of well-sided uh clean types of carbohydrates your your sweet potatoes and your quinoa you know you're trying to avoid you know the either regular potatoes which really aren't too bad if you're just trying to get carbs or calories for your race but you're trying to avoid you know breads and pastas and and rices and things like that

but during the actual race or during your training program, it's hard to actually be eating things. So obviously you want some type of drink. And as far as the carbohydrates you put in your drink, you have a couple of options. The easiest option is probably just regular old Gatorade. And the breakdown of sugars in Gatorade, I'm not 100% sure exactly how it breaks down percentage-wise,

but it's got a little bit of glucose, a little bit of sucrose, which is a combination of glucose and fructose. Fructose, people talk about being not the best thing to get a huge volume of, so if you're trying to stay super paleo and avoid fructose, then maybe Gatorade isn't the best solution for you. Why would people want to avoid fructose? What's the danger of consuming too much fructose and maybe Gatorade isn't the best solution for you. Why would people want to avoid fructose? What's the danger of consuming too much fructose or too frequently? Well, there's a lot of disease talk there, but as far as performance goes, fructose doesn't

get stored as glycogen, as energy in your muscles the same way that glucose does. It'll go get stored in your liver first and then it'll have to get you know converted to glycogen in your liver and then it'll re-break back down into glucose but put back into circulation and then it could be stored in your muscles so it's kind of a roundabout process so if you can get glucose straight in your bloodstream and straighten your muscles you'll recover a little bit better and you'll have that that energy available a little bit sooner So if you can get more pure glucose during the race, I'm not sure what's in goo 100%. Do you know what's in goo as far as sugars go?

But if you get more either... I'm not even trying, dude. More pure glucose, it'll have a quicker reaction in your body. You can use that fuel sooner. So for that, you could just buy pure glucose and put it in your drink. It's not quite as sweet as fructose, so it probably won't be, you know, probably won't taste quite as good. Or you could get some type of starch, you know, waxy maize starch is just amylopectin, which is a very fast digesting type of starch. That's a good option too. Or you could get

maltodextrin, which is similar to starch, but the glucose molecules aren't bound together as tightly. And so right when it gets in your stomach, it kind of just breaks down right into pure glucose right away. So the glycine index of that is really, really high. But kind of in the end, all those things are pure glucose and they're all good options. So pure glucose, Waxymase starch, or maltodextrin are all easy options because they're all kind of the same thing. They're all kind of just glucose in the end. Is that kind of what you're looking for?

Yeah, exactly. And one of the reasons we suggest Gatorade a lot of times for post-workouts, it does have a combination of the types of sugars that they're going to break down at the speed that's most desired. People at Gatorade kind of figured it out, I think, is what we decided a long time ago. I think we looked it up a long time ago and was like, okay, Gatorade's good enough. Yeah, it's good enough and it's cheap and you can find it everywhere. If you want to get maltodextrin or Waxy Maize, you've got to seek it out a little more than just going to buy Gatorade, which you can buy anywhere.

And Gatorade tastes good and it's got electrolytes in it also. He was talking about... I used to get it from... Unlike the water from the toilet. anywhere and Gary tastes good and it's got electrolytes in it also and he was talking about I used to get unlike the water from the toilet I can't say the word electrolytes without thinking of bronze get maltodextrin from a beer brew your own beer supply website I forget the name of it you get a giant container of it for far less than if you tried to go to a sports supplement company obviously so maltodextrin and glucose is in roctane goo which is what i take okay that's really good then actually maltodextrin is kind of an interesting thing because because it's just glucose molecules hydrogen bonded together which is like a very weak bond like i said once you eat

it it just basically falls apart in your stomach uh they can market it as a as a complex carbohydrate and so you'll you'll look at like a lot of weight gainers it'll say like only five grams of sugar and then you look at the it's all sugar and you look at at the actual ingredients to say carbohydrates 106 per serving and then five grams of sugar and salt maltodextrin which is a super fast digesting technically complex carbohydrate which is kind of a garbage term anymore because nobody really cares if digesting technically complex carbohydrate, which is kind of a garbage term anymore because nobody really cares if it's a complex carbohydrate or sugar. They're all similar enough where they give you a similar,

especially insulin reaction in your body. So it's kind of a garbage term anymore, but it still markets very well. And so they can use maltodextrin, which is basically just pure sugar and market it as not sugar. It's funny you bring that up because i don't even think about like complex carbs versus simple carbs at all anymore like it's kind of like i just like pushed it to the back of my brain it's just carbs and so i'll be talking to people about about uh nutrition they'll go well i'm doing good because i'm eating

complex carbs and i go like i'm like what are complex like what foods fall in that category for me like I used to know and I used to care and like I just don't it just doesn't matter so much that I just

totally don't even think about it anymore so people start talking about like is it simple or complex carb and I go why like who cares it doesn't matter

yeah it's interesting so it reminds me of Suzanne Som summers yeah i'm gonna say this suzanne suzanne summers right from the threes company i remember she was on tv one time selling a nutritional book obviously ridiculous but she said that the that the key to my diet, this is Suzanne Somers speaking, the key to my diet is that you don't want to eat anything that turns to sugar in your body because sugar makes you fat.

I'm like, oh, you don't want to eat anything that turns to sugar in your body. That's a short list of things, I guess. I don't know. Good advice, I guess. What was she suggesting after that she's like eat you know eat potatoes and stuff

because they're blah blah blah it went on that line of thinking that's what I was thinking you were saying so for the record the complex carbohydrates

are just sugars all linked together and they get cleaved off the end one by one and then just turn back into I think her angle

is more like you don't want sugar in your body, period. And I started thinking, well, you have to have sugar in your body because you're going to die. Your brain's not going to work and all this kind of stuff. Interesting stuff, Suzanne. Maybe not. Technically, you can run on ketones so you don't

have to have sugar. You have essential fats and essential proteins and if you don't have those, then you'll die, but there's no essential carbohydrates. You can go go carb free forever and you'll be fine yeah might not feel great but you won't die um man i was gonna ask you something think hard well i have a question sure go on is there a difference between like i heard of a couple years ago during the faction games i saw a purple sweet potato for the first time. Yeah.

And somebody was saying, well, this is way better than eating a regular sweet potato or a potato. I mean, is there really... Like flavor? No, not flavor. I know they're delicious. They are good. As far as the carbohydrate content goes,

I really have no idea on the difference between purple and orange sweet potatoes. There probably is some difference. I mean, something's coloring the vegetable i guess so there's a difference there i think maybe the lack of beta care maybe doesn't have as much beta carotene maybe maybe they're concerned too much of that i don't know that's just a shot in the dark i mean you're right beta carotene is a pigment and it will turn things orange and something else is turning it purple so maybe it just has way more of something else turning it purple or or none of that and whatever else is making it orange so there's a difference there but it's probably more like a phytochemical type difference and not necessarily a carbohydrate difference i'm guessing i really don't know

uh oh yeah i was wanting to bring up uh you're talking about how a lot of complex carbs won't be classified as sugars on a food label as i i just wanted you to kind of like or kind of point it out that uh just because it doesn't say sugar on there doesn't mean that it's not going to turn into sugar like it's immediately like those carbohydrates might be listed as non-sugar carbohydrates but as soon as you ingest it it's sugar i think that's obvious for most people listening yeah i mean i really don't think about carbs being, again, like, you know, good carbs being complex or starchy and sugars being single molecules being any worse for you. Like, how I define good carbs versus bad carbs is I think of the carbohydrates kind of essentially being the same for the most part, which is kind of a generalization. It's not 100% true every time, but the carbohydrates are roughly the same.

And what makes it a good carb or a bad carb is what comes along with those carbohydrates. So if it's a very natural source, we're talking about the sweet potatoes there, there's other vitamins, minerals, um, you know, enzymes, anti-cancer, um, you know, uh, antiviral nutrients, like things that can help your immune system and ward off disease. There's all these other things that come along with it. When you get a processed carbohydrate, they get filtered out or changed or destroyed by heat treating and processing and milling and all these other things that happen to processed carbohydrates.

You're left with pure carbs in a lot of cases, like if you're looking at regular white sugar, but you don't have any nutrients at all to come along with it so that's what really makes a good carb or a bad carb for the most part in my opinion and granted there's still a difference between glucose and fructose and things like that but i think first and foremost you need to think about are you getting anything anything positive coming along with it because all those other micronutrients are actually what helps you in your body process those nutrients and store that in your muscles or somewhere where it's needed and not just being like, well, we don't have all the micronutrients

that process these additional calories, and so we'll just store them until we have those nutrients for later. And then you basically just put them into storage, which means you're storing those body fat. So going to a question that uh brad submitted to me uh he's talking about uh carb cycling works really well for him um and uh maybe maybe go into what carb cycling like a really quick explanation and talk about like um how all that applies to carb cycling how you would how you would carb cycle in a clean manner

yeah there's a lot of different theories on how you should carb cycle um how i tend to carb cycling and how you would, how you would carb cycle in a clean manner. Yeah, there's a lot of different theories on how you should carb cycle. Um, how I tend to carb cycle is, uh, you know, similar to what Vaughn was saying earlier about just having a workout drink. So I eat paleo pretty much all the time. And then the days where I, where I train, you know, I have a workout drink. So I had extra carbs that day cause I had carbohydrates in my workout drink. And if I trained twice that day, then I had two workout drinks that day. And so i had extra carbs that day because i had carbohydrates in my workout drink and if i trained twice that day then i had two workout drinks that day and so i had even extra carbs on that day so by having a workout drink you're kind of automatically carb cycling because you're getting more carbohydrates the more you train and if you don't train that day then you ate paleo all day so if you ate meat and vegetables all day and didn't have any any dense source of

carbohydrates and that was your low carb day so i think that's the easiest way to carb cycle kind of naturally without being like you know on monday i'm gonna have a high carb day and tuesday is gonna be a medium carb day and wednesday i'm having no carb day and thursday may have a medium carb day again you get caught in the trap of thinking too much about when you're going to manipulate what and you lose sight of the reason you were going to carb cycle to begin with right to support the low activity you were going to do that day so that's a probably a brilliant example of a more intuitive more effective way to approach a problem like that what's the most simple way you can think about it well i'll eat more carbs when i need them they're all the other theories are necessary yeah there's no reason to be on a high carb day on the day that you're primarily sedentary. And if you are, you're thinking about,

I'm going to manipulate things based on some hunch I have versus just following what you likely will need. The rationale is completely different and probably much more effective if you just do that simple path. You tend to tolerate carbohydrates a lot more effectively right after training. So if I, or actually as far as the studies go they'll look at two groups of people say there's 100 people in each group and they take one group and they they train and then they have a carb protein drink right after they train like zero minutes

post-workout and they take the other group they do the same training session and then they wait two hours and then they have the exact same the same workout drink or post-workout drink and then they have the exact same workout drink or post-workout drink. Then the rest of the day, they're on the same diet roughly. They're on isocaloric diets which means they're having the same number of calories throughout the day and the same number of calories post-workout but the only difference is that one group had a zero-minute post-workout and the other group had it two hours post-workout. The group that had a zero-minute post-workout tends to store more carbohydrates in their muscles muscles they'll take muscle biopsies and they'll measure the amount of muscle glycogen in the muscle they'll have more in the zero minutes post workout group more storage in the

muscle than the other group that waited two hours even on the same number of calories they're getting more faster more efficient recovery and kind of the assumption there as well if you're not if you're not taking those those calories and storing them where needed, which would be your muscle glycogen, then there's plenty of other places in your body that you use carbohydrates. All your cells can benefit from having at least a little bit. But the assumption there as well, if it didn't go to the muscle, then you're storing it as body fat for later.

So there's a nutrient partitioning benefit to having carbohydrates very close to your workout. And the rest of the day, you just don't tolerate them and use them as effectively. You're more likely to get fat if you're having your carbohydrates at other times of the day. Exactly what I wanted to hear. Awesome. I think everyone out there in iTunes land has been informed. I think it's great. Um, let's go ahead and wrap this up. Uh,

I want, uh, I want to let Vaughn have a, the last topic and just, uh, training for ultras. Uh, someone submitted a question about training for ultras without injury.

And I think we kind of covered that and how we program for you. Don't run. Um, but I want, I want you to tell us why you think that you stay injury free quite a bit compared to other runners ah well i think there's a couple of a couple of reasons number one because i don't run as much um and you know in particular the people that are asking this question on facebook i know they run too much right um they're trying to go to all the weekly group runs and and train

crossfit on the same day you know come in the next morning i just ran 15 miles last night well you should have stayed home you know i mean or stop running so they'll do 15 miles multiple days a week right right right and and and then wonder, well, why am I so drained? Why can't I train properly at the gym? And why does my knee hurt? Why does my ankle hurt? And then they end up out for three, four days because their leg, their knee's messed up or whatever it is, and they're just running too much,

in my opinion. And what was the second thing? There were two things I said. The second thing is technique, right? So we, we spent a lot of time on pose running in the very beginning when I first started training with you guys. And I think that helped me immensely because I'm not like the best pose runner during the race, you know, but I think that foundation has switched me from heel striking

into a more forefront landing to where I don't have those heel injuries. You know, I don't wake up in the morning and I can't walk because my heel hurts so bad and that kind of thing. Yeah, not even just your heel, but if you're heel striking, you're putting a lot more negative forces on your knee and your hip and your lower back and everything really. Right. So, yeah, don't run so much and look into pose running

because those two things are going to be huge for you. Something you brought up I thought was really interesting was it's like they're doing CrossFit, and then they're going off and doing someone else's running program. Right. What we offer is comprehensive programming. And if you do this with anybody, it's not just us. You take any two different training programs,

and you're just going to put them together arbitrarily, that's not smart. Right. Like, you just just i know people who like will will blend like crossfit football with crossfit endurance or something like i'm like no do one program that there's there is a rationale behind the the program comprehensively like you can't just take random things and throw it together i know it sounds sounds like i don't know i guess some people think that sounds good like let's just throw random programs together and see what happens well it's it's hard for it's hard for people that have been running for so long

they you just can't get it out of their brain that they don't need to run all that all those miles you know so it's really hard for them to come into an environment like we have and give up, give that up, you know, like just stop doing it. Just, just stop. Yeah. I remember talking to a, to a guy who had been, you know, a long time endurance athlete. He's probably in his late forties or maybe fifties now. And, and we were, we were suggesting to him that he, that he can cut his volume down. And he took it as, Hey, old man, that stuff doesn't work.

And he's like, no, I've seen it work for so many people for 20 or 30 years. You can't tell me it doesn't work. I've seen it work so many times. And after I kind of had that realization, he felt like I was telling him everything he knows is totally wrong. I came back and I said, we're not saying that what they do with super high volume training doesn't work at all because a lot of people have had success with it.

What we're saying is that you don't necessarily have to do that. And if you take this lower volume approach, you can still train to have that capacity. You can train to work on your speed, which is very important because usually running faster gives you a bigger range of motion and you're potentially training different fiber types in a lot of

cases. So the training of intervals affects your body in a lot different way than just training the same pace all the time and trying to run longer and longer and longer with it. And then in addition, what we're talking about today was having low volume training keeps you from being injury-free. We're saying you can train for that capacity without having as high of a risk potential. Then when you're 45, you don't have to have both knees replaced. You hear about those guys that ran a marathon every day for two years.

Then they got nasty problems when they're older. Especially for those of us that our sole goal in life isn't to win this one race I'm preparing for for two years from now. We're trying to race and have a good time with it and enjoy yourself along the way without only focusing on winning and then having a life afterward. I think the lower volume approach is a smarter way to go about it. Yeah, and I also get the benefit of being able to stay strong and get stronger, which is huge for me because I really have come to like that. So running all those miles. Well, the strength is awesome. Right. No doubt.

It's fun to be strong. Yeah. It is. For sure. All right, guys. I think that's about it. I didn't leave anything out. I'm going to plug my website.

No doubt. Liftheavyrunlong.com Liftheavyrunlong.com It should be Liftheavyrunlong sometimes, probably not very often, but sometimes.com If you want to see how Vaughn trains,

it's basically the program we were just talking about on the show. If you go to that website, you'll be able to see what he's doing. He doesn't just post his training. He also posts, you know, race reports and whatever. Yeah. What all do you post there? Uh, well, I've got, uh, an athlete's page, which I'm trying to put together of, you know,

uh, runners who can also, uh, who can finish a 50 mile race and deadlift 400 plus pounds. So that's just some goal that I came up with. Do you scale that for women? Do you have like a women's group that can deadlift 250 or something? I've been asked that question, but I haven't come across any women that want to be on the page. So if there's, if there is a woman out there that wants to be included on that page, we can definitely scale that. I'll probably get Mike to help me figure out the weights on that or something. Like what's the women's equivalent of a 400-pound deadlift? Usually, I mean, the standard like CrossFit deal is like 70%.

Okay. So anyway, yeah, come to that website and follow me on my journey to be the fastest and strongest distance runner in the world very good very cool got anything doug yeah uh definitely if you haven't been watching um all the you know technique wads from the very beginning before we started editing them into the show uh be sure to go to the TechniqueWOD tab at the top of Fitter.TV and start going through the backlogged older TechniqueWODs where we talk about weightlifting

and squatting and deadlifting and all the stuff that we haven't really talked about a whole lot on that page lately. That way you can be up to speed for all the episodes in the future. Yeah. Chris Moore blogging. be up to speed for all the episodes in the future like uh yeah chris more blog nice plug oh yeah the chris more blog where you can see all the nice info graphics right yeah the chris more blog.com a nice mix of things that i know and things that occur to me i put them up there you can read them

and consider them i i enjoy your blog i do too thank you thank you uh yeah and make sure to go to fitr.tv already kind of talked about that earlier in the show fitr.tv if you can't pronounce it fitter get it uh anyways make sure to check that out am i forgetting anything doug yeah if you're on fitter.tv be sure to sign up for the newsletters off the right side of the screen you know put your name and email in that way you'll stay up to date with all the uh all the new things that we're offering when we have new shows come out whether it's barbara shrugger technique water new products you know we we send out an email and let y'all know about that that way you can stay up to speed with everything that we're doing give us your feedback awesome that's something i forgot to put on the front of the show

give us your feedback ask us questions and we'll do put on the front of the show damn give us your feedback ask us questions and we'll do our best to make sure you are kept up to speed I really do think that makes the show better because the last few shows

we've gotten questions and I think that helped develop the show and it's something that people actually want to hear so what are you looking at get off the nuts

alright see y'all next time thanks guys bye bye nuts