Barbell Shrugged - Episode 4 - Brian and Leslie Schilling

Episode Date: March 22, 2012

The Barbell Shrugged crew nerds out about olympic weightlifting with Dr. Brian Schilling and explores the what’s and why’s to interval training. Later in the show Brian’s wife Leslie, a registered dietitian discusses eating disorders and the current state of nutrition research.

Hey guys, this is CTP and you're listening to Barbell Shrugged. For the video version of this podcast, check out Fitter.TV. word but he went for like a person at 200 or whatever like a way to four or like five times some back weight or body weight squat but he takes a bar out of the rack they move it all the way down to the bottom safety hook position he comes out he picks it up he's like 180 pounds he's squat like 550 pounds but he goes i looked at it i don't know if he even totaled because he would go down as as low as biomechanically possible flesh fully engaged on flesh right right and didn't look like he was that parallel again it's just like when i thought i mean he's obviously strong but i felt like this just seems i don't want to say you can't do this, but this just doesn't seem fair.

It seems weird to call it an ex-bodyweight squat when you have these extreme leverages. It's incredible. He's built like a full-grown baby. Super long torso and no long bone development whatsoever. Yeah, there's been a bunch of powders who were little people. And it's really impressive, but they they do benches they do squats and pulls it's just like talk about Sulaiman who having good leverages this guy moves the bar in a deadlift like I'm not I'm not sure that Sulaiman wouldn't have qualified to be a little person because I

mean you look at some of his proportions I mean when he's standing up his arms go down to his belt you know he stands up with it he's from the floor is a rack pull, right? That's why it's really slow and difficult. It's right from the knee. He's at the worst position in the world to pick it up. I want to say below five feet is what qualifies now for scholarships for little people.

If he was 4'11". You're not going to find many guys that weigh 56 kilos that aren't pretty short. Sure. I think Mulu's 4'11", too, isn't he? Yeah, probably. Yeah, yeah.

All right. Well, I guess we should actually start the show. Yeah, we should. Right, yeah. You mean this is not on tape? That was a prologue. All right. Well, Blitz was out of town.

He went to Jamaica and a bunch of other places. All over. He's on a cruise. He should be here. So, he's out of town this week. So, I'm hosting the show. I'm Doug Larson. We've got Chris Moore.

James Chaney's filling in. And Brian Schilling is our special guest today. Doctor. Special. Brian Schilling. Very special. PhD. That's right.

That's right. Therefore, anything he says, you should probably think about leaving it. Chisel it in stone. Yeah. That's right. If you ain't calling yourself doctor, you better listen up. All right. stone yeah that's right so if you ain't calling yourself doctor you better listen up all right well brian uh being uh exercise science research has a lot of experience in that world as does chris so one of the things i want to talk about tonight is kind of where where to actually use

exercise science research and where it really just does not matter at all and where you should take a much more anecdotal approach and kind of where to, to look at research and kind of take it with a grain of salt, you know, note it, but it doesn't really matter so much and kind of just stick to your, stick to your program and not get like taken off base by some new study that you saw, you know, in the paper or where have you, or in our case on PubMed. So on that note, like with your training, do you really, do you really make changes

to your training these days based off research you see, or are you pretty kind of set in your ways? Uh, I, I think that if you're a decent enough consumer of research, you can tweak your, your training plan based on the research that you find, but you have to be able to tell whether or not it's good research. And that's, that's the, that's basically the epidemic have to be able to tell whether or not it's good research. And that's basically the epidemic we have is that people think, oh, it's in research, it must be good.

Well, that's not necessarily true. That's across the board, too. It goes for every kind of research. Any kind of research, that's right. So, I mean, the mass media is terrible at interpreting the research. Most researchers can't even interpret their own research. And most researchers, I won't say most, but many researchers aren't even smart enough to design a decent study, but they can still manage to get it published somewhere anyway.

So the question is, yes, but it happens less and less frequency because the quality of the research that's out there is not as good as it could be. Do you have any examples of that? Without naming names. For instance, high-intensity endurance exercise is a big topic now, and work-to-rest ratios and stuff like that. And there's some pretty strong evidence for work-to-rest ratios that might be best for fat loss.

There's this guy named Christmas with two S's at the end. He basically was looking at different work-to-rest ratios, and obviously it's just like any other training study. You have a lot of acute training variables. You can't manipulate seven different things and say this is the optimal program but he he was looking at work to rest ratios of about one to one and a half and he figured out that at about 15 seconds is where you run out of myoglobin and so that he was figuring that basically a work to rest ratio of 15 23 might be most metabolically um advantageous as far as fat loss goes.

Now, of course, that doesn't mean that every time you do high-intensity endurance exercise, you only do 15-23, but you might want to have your program at least stress that work-to-rest ratio and those periods at least some part of the time. So for our viewers who don't have any exercise science background at all, that might have sounded like way, way over the top. I heard something called mild globin. It sounds important. Ratios for a type of exercise that they have no idea what it is.

What is high intensity endurance exercise? High intensity endurance exercise would be repeated bouts of exercise that's super maximal, so basically above your VO2 max or above your maximum aerobic threshold. Which is what? Kind of, can you define that in any more simpler terms? Do you know what that means? Well, VO2 max, can you just say that whole thing again?

I think the second time around, it'll make more sense. You're working at above what your maximal aerobic work rate is. So we typically measure it with something like some sort of graded test where you start at a low intensity, you ratchet up the intensity. Eventually, you get to a point where we can see that you are no longer using aerobic pathways. You are not using pathways that use oxygen to supply ATP for your body. And you're using some other method, whether it be the ATP that's stored in your muscle or glycolysis or something like that. That's because you've surpassed your oxygen. Yeah. You can't keep up the rate of work because the aerobic pathway is not fast enough to keep up that rate.

So any exercise that's over that, typically it's done for shorter periods and some sort of work to rest ratio, which is very popular. I mean, it's kind of ingrained in the CrossFit type mentality. Tabata is a really popular 20 on 10 off. Yeah. Tabata is one of them, which is grossly misinterpreted, which is actually a great example of why people can't interpret research very well but uh so so anything that's done it that that's super maximal intensity and then some sort of work to rest ratios well with the christmas article what he's really saying is that when you when you start doing any type of exercise you always pull in atp uh first from your local stores of atp but you're you're never let's back

up on that again too. So ATP is just what you use for energy, right? I'm not very good at this again. ATP is the fuel for life. It's this, the, it's the, it's the metabolic energy that we use to, to supply for muscle contractions in this case. So, uh, in, in that case, when you're, you're never using a hundred percent of one, a hundred percent of other, it's always kind of this great continuum of, are you, you're working a little bit more aerobic, a little less aerobic. What he's saying is that you keep aerobic, but you're using the portion of your aerobic metabolism that is locally stored oxygen.

Most people have heard of what hemoglobin is. Well, hemoglobin is what stores oxygen in the blood. Well, myoglobin is what stores oxygen within the muscle. So what Christmas was saying is like, well, in 15 seconds, you use up your myoglobin. If you rest for about 23 seconds, you can actually replete or you restore a lot of that myoglobin, and then you do it again. So you can actually keep yourself from going as far into glycolysis, which might actually help you utilize more fat for fuel. And I guess it would be a… Did you catch all that, James?

Makes sense. Sure. fat for fuel and i guess it'd be a catch all that james makes sense sure and of course if you can say it convincingly it gets deeper you go into into other pathways i guess the hard is to recover rep to rep i guess your your your your power per sprint or whatever you're doing will probably go down and i guess your session a session recovery might take a hit too, especially if you're on a low-carbohydrate diet or something. That's true. The idea behind training as optimally as you can versus what probably a lot of crossfitters are guilty of

is training as maximally as you can all the time on every fucking thing you choose to do. Well, of course. I mean, that's why we do it. You can say that on the radio? Yeah. Okay. This is not MCC regulated.

Well, good. What did he say? You say whatever you want what did you say what did you say fuck oh he he said no he said the c word and i think brian was wanting to make sure that no i was going with the f word crossfit yeah i was like what fuck oh crossfit no i shouldn't say crossfit no but yeah you see I think the thing that perplexes me about CrossFit I love the variation

and I certainly love the fact that people who would otherwise never even see somebody do a snatch or clean jerk are now learning these lifts

they're learning about powerlifting they're learning how to lift an atlas stone so they're getting that vital exposure and learning how to lift things with good efficiency and good technique and get exposed to all these cool things.

But then again, they do push everything to extremes a lot of the time. If you didn't rip your fucking hands open and you're not bleeding, you're not rolling on the floor gasping after every session. You didn't get the training. If some is good, more is better. Yeah, it reminds me of the attitude in football practice a long time ago like if after every football session you weren't

rolling on the ground gasping after your wind sprints then we're not going to win the game we're not in shape just a completely uh skewed flawed attitude well i think also people come who've come from very sedentary lifestyles even people who work out when they finally experience this very high intensityintensity workout, I mean, it's something completely new. I think you get a little addicted to it. Oh, yeah. It's like anything else.

It's like a drug. Well, the endorphins released from that type of exercise in particular could probably lead to that. Yeah. Because you're generating all that, there I go again, endorphins. You generate all that lactic acid, the acid that you feel that burning. You generate certain chemicals in your brain. Yum yum molecules in your brain yeah one day we're going to see we're going to see we're going to see crossfit interventions where people people have to go to rehab because they're addicted yeah maybe it is effective you burn a hell of a lot of

calories and you will adapt but your your long-term ability to stay with that kind of activity and not burn yourself out. You know, and that's actually really frustrating because I've only been doing it two and a half years, and I've already got not serious shoulder issues, but I can't do a pull-up without grimacing in pain. How many pull-ups a week do you do? Well, it depends. I mean, a couple weeks ago we had a lot. It was just 100 pull-ups, you know, straight.

How long do you think it would take you to recover from 100 pull-ups? Longer than you gave yourself. Probably. It's not necessarily muscle recovery you have to worry about. Especially doing kipping pull-ups. That's fucking super hard on your joints. Even if you're not sore anymore,

it doesn't mean you need to go do more kipping pull-ups. That's something that needs to be moderated a lot more than it currently is in a lot of people's training programs let's see i don't do kip and pull-ups anymore at all either sure zero brian could probably attest to it but i started lifting pretty much for i guess for football i mean like sixth seventh grade get into football go through high school you're lifting hard you're trying your best not doing anything wisely but you're you're benching a lot. You're doing some sort of squatting exercise.

You're doing cleans. Big quotation marks around the word cleans. You get into college. You're doing it. After college, I started powerlifting. After football, Brian started doing a little bit of weightlifting. You have a really good, let's see, five, six, seven-year run or whatever. Then, man, like right now, if I could do a bench press session,

I could come back the next day or the day after and bench heavy again if it weren't for the fact that my bicep tendons are red and inflamed and won't let me even lift my arms. All the muscles are fully recovered. But I get bicep tendons you wouldn't believe. Or I get one bone in my wrist will flare up and won't let me hold a barbell. Or I can't hold a squat bar. Which is why I guess you don't see too many guys above 35 in the Olympics, you know, for Olympic weightlifting.

That actually seems to be the age where actually people peak is in the early 30s because it takes 20 years of training to get there. And you can only start when you're 10, so you to be 30 by time you get there now the the ages have come down but you know i remember having this conversation with one of my old mentors that if you look at the average age of the medal winners and lifting in atlanta i think it's 32 but then again you got to remember these guys started when they're 12 and 20 years but but how many are there over 40 yeah yeah, it's very, very, very few. I think that you're probably getting to the point where there's no going back either do it when you're in your early 30s or you're done.

I think there's a lot of really great lifters in their 40s and 50s. The guys are going to outlive me any day of the week. Yeah. Certainly. They're not on the international stage. Well, in powerlifting maybe. I don't know of any weightlifting, but on the other hand maybe in weightlifting by the time they get to be that they're just burned out. That's 30 years of training. They're just like forget international stage. Well, in powerlifting, maybe. I don't know of any weightlifting. But on the other hand, maybe in weightlifting, by the time they get to be that, they're just burned out.

That's 30 years of training. They're just like, forget it. I'm done. Or the politics of their country and team. Oh, yeah. They're on the platform. Yeah, absolutely. I remember the old conspiracy theory from Alexia.

Alexia, who passed away this year. God rest her soul. Vasily. Did I say his first name? Vasily. I didn't know he died. Yeah. It wasn't that long it was

his last olympics like 84 no no it was it was 80 if well if he was really well they didn't go in 80 and wasn't he going 84 he might have lifted an 80 if then wasn't he actually poisoned right before he walked out he used to say he used to say that uh my coach comes to me with vial. That's what he said. He says, take vial. I take, and then I immediately realize I am poisoned. He told that story, and he goes out, and he has a shitty meet, but I wonder how much of it is like, look, we have younger people who need to take the stage, and whether you can do good or not, we don't want you there.

He also was rather outspoken about his political ideas, which is not a good thing to do. He did so many things that pissed off the Russian government. One thing he did was they figured they were going to give X number of rubles for every time you broke the world record. So he would just keep breaking the world record by little, little bits and bits

and kept collecting money. Finally, they figured out, hey, wait a minute, we can't pay this guy anymore. We've got to do something else. So there's a guy who could have been really good, probably strong as an ox

until he was 50. Who knows? That was all before the weight class changes, right? Yeah, that was... The weight class changes went through for the 2000 Olympics. That was the addition of the women. They've changed the weight classes several times over the years, but the big change was when they added women.

They didn't want to add that many athletes, so they took the number of men's classes back. From 10 to 8. Today's records are above, in a lot of cases, the old records? It depends on which weight class you're talking about. None of the absolute super records have been broken that I know of. Not since 88, right?

Yeah, because I think it's 220 and 266, I think, are the absolute records. What's it right now? It's like 263 for clean kilos? Yeah, somewhere right around there, yeah. No one has still done officially 600 in a meet, right? Even though there's been tons of guys who could. Didn't Ronnie Miller clean it and not jerk it or something like that? I don't know.

It was obvious that he could have done it. He just didn't for whatever reason. Politics or whatever still. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, I was just trying to think i mean in that golden era era of the 80s up to 88 whatever the 88 was the one to watch i mean if you look at the the records for the supers from 88 it's like uh krastev snatches a world record taranenko cleaning jerks world record and then uh who was it kurlovich beat them both in the total you know it was insane this perfect

storm of talent politics supporting the training and driving the athletic achievement and drug use and yeah just everything coming together it was a perfect storm like you know kurlovich and those guys i mean to see them lift like i don't know how you do that just looks like a computer animation like the incredible hulk is lifting barbells. But to that end, even Vasili, I think no one really even knows just how strong they go. He never tested himself, at least not in front of the lifters.

But these guys, him and guys like Serge Redding, were cleaning metal plates with shitty quality bars and then pressing them. 500 pounds. Mm-hmm. Well, you know, I asked Stone one time, I said,

because I don't think, I don't think Alexei would ever snatch more than like 185. Maybe he didn't feel like he had to. Exactly. I said,

why did he do it? He never had to. He knew he was going to kill everybody in the clean and jerk so he just didn't have to so he didn't do it. Well, his best clean and jerk was what,

like at least 550 right more I think he did at least 250 it was a lot yeah a whole lot doing it in that time

I mean jeez but that lost art of those famous YouTube videos seeing those guys doing the clean and presses that Olympic style press

it's not a strip press but to put the only guy I can think of who can put who can do that today is the strong man from Latvia.

Oh, that narrows it down. He's a strong Eastern European. You know the guy? Are they all from Latvia? Name escapes me, but I've seen him do a continental clean with a 500-pound axle, pop it, and then lay it back and press it straight with no leg drive. What year did they get rid of the press?

72, I think. It was either the last year or the first Olympics without the press. I can't remember. It was right around there. I wonder if people were upset with that when it went away. It was a huge politics. It was too hard to judge.

When you do the clean and press, you're supposed to start motionless. And what guys ended up doing, they were actually kind of doing this kind of wobble thing, and then they started pushing away. And they were actually doing like a standing jerk type of bench press. Have you seen on startingstrength.com, Roberto posted a pretty detailed, or somebody who wrote it for him, posted a pretty detailed review of the Olympic press. Kind of concrete to be brought back.

But if you look at the mechanics of it, it's funky as hell. If you try to repeat it, you can't. It takes probably as much practice as the other lifts take. Absolutely. There's a lot of skill in it. The biggest feature is bowing your abs forward. They create literally like a bow. That tension, the popping hips back,

and getting your head out of the way to kick the weight up. And then dropping back for that brief moment where you need to maximize your leverage and then getting back forward. It's a very complicated back and forth movement, but the Wilds guys put 500 pounds overhead without jerking it. It's crazy. Yeah. No thanks.

I know another big component of that in that article was the, I mean, the Americans always thought they were being judged too harshly, especially at European meets when they were doing the press. Like, you're letting this asshole use his legs and I'm pressing strict, you're giving me red lights. That was a big common occurrence. You know, the Russians getting away with big-time presses.

So right now, pal, there's bitching at meets about, I squat deeper than that guy, you give me reds. That kind of stuff, I guess, never... It's never going to go away. People are always going to fuss and bitch and whine. So actually, with regard to the different countries and their programming, I know everyone talks about the Bulgarian method versus the Chinese and whatnot. Do you have any kind of insight into really what those training methods are like?

A lot of people kind of claim it's one way or the other, but truth be told, I personally don't know that much about any one in particular. It's hard to say except that if you look at the Bulgarians, they had, I don't know how many lifters they had, but they had a country of 20,000 people or something like that. It's not a very big country. There's not many lifters and there's not many coaches. So if somebody tells you they've seen what they're doing,

most everybody's doing that. If you go to China and say the Chinese lifter does this, China's a little bit bigger than that. There's a lot of lifters in China. I don't think every lifter in China is doing the same thing. It's probably the same thing as the Soviets. The Soviets had 500,000 registered weightlifters in the 80s. Half a million weightlifters. Let that sink in for a minute. So I mean the fact that-

As a contrast, how many weightlifters are registered USAW now, you think? Maybe 4,000. And that includes probably all the people that CrossFit's rounded up. I don't know. It may be more than that. But when I was lifting, it lifting it was only like 3 500 what's that you always used to say about china if you're one a million one in a million in china there's a thousand like you yeah yeah there's a thousand running around so it's it's and to that point when you expose those guys to brutal training methodologies that the hunt there's gonna be maybe a hundred people who tolerate it well then 20 to 30 who tolerate it really well, then 10 of those guys are fighting for a spot on the Olympic team,

and two or three go, and then now you have a guy who's doing what you see on YouTube. Yeah, yeah. And then you have a guy at a CrossFit go, look what those Chinese guys do. I think I'll try to see what they're doing and incorporate that into my training. Foolishness. You'd hear all the time, well, the Bulgarians don't do pulls. Well, you know, Strassen has probably seen, you know, probably more

international weightlifting than anybody. He videotaped somebody, I guess in 96 in the training hall, a Bulgarian guy doing pulls. And he actually, Strassen made a comment, he's like, well, yeah, this is proof that Bulgarians do pulls, at least sometimes. It doesn't mean they do them all the time, it doesn't mean they do them as much as the

Russians did, but they do do them. And the interesting thing about it is when he did them, it looked exactly like he was going to clean it. It didn't look like some different lift that some people do they call a pull. It looked just like he was going to clean it, and that's the only pull that's any good. Trying to set a gym record for how much they can pull instead of working on their technique. Like a deadlift. I think I saw a discussion,

it may have been last year in a Weyland-Thread on PennLaceForum. Glenn chimed in. Somebody asked him, you know, you've been around a couple games now, you know, the Pan Ams, and you've talked with, he talked with some South American lifters and some of the Russian coaches, and he asked them all the same kind of questions about training what do you do and his take on it was it seemed that all the coaches seemed to be very confused as to why we were so focused on the the programs and what was different between them and you know all these details that's that's probably legitimate they

all train really really fucking hard they take it very seriously they're all doing heavy frequent lifts in the lifts and if one guy does pulls and one guy does uh full lifts and one guy does a little more back squats than the other one guy does rdls or something they all seem to be like well who what does that matter what's that matter at all who cares so for people that are the things that are that are more important than that because for the people that don't have as much of a physiology background as you might uh chris was talking about frequency and weight lifters tend to do you know a lot higher frequency for their lifts than powerlifters do for example so you might come in five days a week and do snatch clean jerk and front squat five days a

week where powerlifters are not going to squat bench and deadlift five days a week ever like why is that even possible yeah well the relative loading is less i mean the absolute load for powerlifting is greater in a lot of cases than it is for weightlifting so you can get away with doing that as a matter of fact if you look within weightlifters you can see that they'll snatch more frequently than they'll clean and jerk because clean and jerks just tend to beat you up a little bit more now obviously that would be it would be a mistake to say that everybody does that because some people they really need to work on the cleaner jerk they might clean the jerk more frequently i think that's where some of this problem comes from is you know we're going to these international meets and we're

seeing these guys two or three weeks before they lift and say well that's what they do all year round it's like now okay there's 52 weeks in a year pal and you just saw them for two to assume that they're doing all the same thing you they do these two weeks is a mistake. But it's all relative. So it's not only different between the snatch and the clean and jerk within lifters, but if you look at the different weight classes, you'll see that lighter lifters lift heavier relative weights more often than heavy guys because the absolute load is heavier for a heavy guy i mean i don't think you know i don't think uh uh you know kurlovich is clean and jerking 260 on a weekly basis but

you watch sula monoglu and you could see him now he's obviously a freak but he would do ridiculously heavy weights right before the meet i mean days out he's snatching world records days out so for for those people in the audience that don't know who sula monoglu is he's basically one of the greatest weightlifters of all time. Michael Jordan of all time. He's the greatest weightlifter. If you look at the numbers. What was that meet he did at the Olympics where every lift he took was a world record?

That was the 88 Olympics again. He basically sets a world record snatch on his second attempt, I think, and then a world record snatch on his third attempt. He comes out on his first clean and jerk. He makes a second clean and jerk. In the second clean and jerk, he sets a world record clean and jerk. He's got the world record snatch,

the world record total, and he won the meet. And he came out on his third clean and jerk and did it anyway. He didn't have to. The meet was over. He came out and did it and set another world record on the total, another world record on the clean and jerk. And no one's going to repeat that ever.

And that was his first Olympics also, wasn't it? No. Or was he there in 84? Olympics also, wasn't it? No. Or was he there in 84? No, well, he didn't go in 84 because he was in Bulgaria, so they didn't go. They boycotted in 84. But he actually finished. He didn't lift in the 80 Olympics, but he beat the Olympic champion,

I think, in 81. And had he gone in 84, he would have been Olympic champion. So he would have won 84. He won 88. He won 92. He won 96. And if he wouldn't have been stupid, he probably would have won in 2000, too, when he opened his snatches too high.

So he could have been a five-time Olympic champion. That's 20 years. So the crazy thing about that. 16 years. The crazy thing about that meet was that, like, I think about piloting. In piloting, you either showed up and you trained okay and you recovered and you had decent taper. You either show up and you can do it or you can't.

Like you had the deadlift in you or you didn't. It wasn't like, oh, my technique didn't allow me to lock out the 900-pound deadlift. I think about what Sulaimano did in the Olympic Games. To be that heavy relative to his body weight and to be within that tight, tight, super tight margin six times to perfectly execute those amount of world record lifts is is really astronomically crazy i mean to catch you know three super heavy snatches like that without much air at all and to stand with it and do the clean and jerks with that kind of precision just is this crazy mind-boggling he's in the range of two and a

half times body weight for a snatch. Triple body. Triple for the clean and jerk. I don't know about it. I'm trying to think of what he did. He probably was snatching somewhere around, I don't want to say, well, I mean, he opened in 2000 with 145, so he probably snatched somewhere around 160 sometime during his lifetime at somewhere right around 60 kilos.

And then he did 180 or over 180 at 180 at actually he might have done 188 if i think back right at like 60 or 62 over triple body i thought i saw a bit at one at one point where he did 190 something like that i don't know i saw him i saw him front squat like 210 that that's a really famous story about him he's at he's at the uh at the atlanta olympic games and they're he's a couple days out and he takes 210 out of the rack and he goes down with it and he gets stuck and he dumps it strips it down to 150 kilos power cleans it puts it back in the rack loads it up to 210 backs out again gets down gets about halfway up and gets stuck again and drops it strips it down to 150 power cleans, puts it in the rack,

takes his shirt off. He's got a singlet on. That was the problem right there. That's right. He puts his singlet straps up, and then he goes and wastes it on his third attempt. That's what I do in the gym. I just take the shirt off, and everything goes up. How many plies was that singlet?

Unbelievable. That's what a paddle thing is. Yeah, that's right. All right, guys, we've got to take a quick break and switch out some equipment. We'll come back and continue the conversation. That went quick. How long was that? I don't know.

That was awesome. Hey, guys, this is CTP. Hey, and this is James Chaney. And we've been trying to come up with this commercial here for five minutes, so we've been failing miserably. So what we're going to do is just try to explain what we're doing. So tell them, James. All right, so what we're doing is we're doing a documentary about Olympic weightlifting.

Okay, if you do CrossFit, you probably know what a clean and jerk or a snatch is. These are the guys in the Olympics that they throw an incredible amount of weight over their heads. In other countries, people know about them, but for some reason in the United States, no one really knows about the sport and about its top elite athletes. So we want to change that. We want to bring light to this really cool sport. I mean, there's really nothing cooler than throwing over 400 pounds over your head. I agree with that.

So we're going to go around. We're going to follow the top athletes. There's about three or four guys we're going to follow, and we're going to document how they train, how they live, how they eat. We want to find out what makes them tick. And then we're also going to travel down to the Pan Am Championships in May in Guatemala, and we're going to film that because that competition is going to decide who gets to go to the Olympics. There's actually only going to be one guy who's going to go to the Olympics this year

to represent the United States for weightlifting. One spot, baby. So if you want to help us, you can go – where are they going? We're going to check out our Kickstarter campaign. You can find a link on the blog at Fedor.tv. Check out the weightlifting documentary blog and then you'll see a link out our Kickstarter campaign. You can find a link on the blog at fitter.tv. Check out the weightlifting documentary blog, and then you'll see a link for the Kickstarter website. Yep, and James is doing a good job of keeping everybody posted

on kind of what we're doing there. So if you want to keep up with how the progress is going, check it out, fitter.tv. We're awesome commercial makers. Peace. Peace. Darling, I can't get enough of your love, baby. I hope we're not recording.

I like always having the recording on. If we're standing here, it should be on. You got to be able to catch all the golden moments. You have the outtakes. Always little golden moments. It's too easy to lose quality content. If it's not on. You on, James?

Yeah. Cool. Good to go. All right, we are back. I'm Doug Larson. This is Chris Moore. Hello. Brian Schilling and Leslie Schilling.

Hi. Yeah, tag team. Yeah. See if we can tear this marriage apart with different nutritional information. You want Leslie to do a brief intro for those who... Yes, absolutely. Leslie, tell us a little bit about yourself and your background. Okay. Well, I'm Leslie Schilling and I own a private practice and I'm a registered dietitian, master's level, was a competitive gymnast, so sport background, and I'm a certified

specialist in sports dietetics as well. Went to Appalachian State in North Carolina and lived in Memphis 10 years. And I've been doing private practice for more than five of those and really love working with people and helping them realize that it's all about eating real food. What else? And what? If you eat real food, you feel real good. Boom.

Trademark. Don't put that shit on your correspondence folks. And there's one more thing I'll add. Leslie was also a competitive weightlifter and she has never been beaten in weightlifting competition. This is true. How many meets have you done? Never been beaten. One.

But she has never been beaten. Undefeated. The only one in your weight class for two separate meets. I have a trophy, yes. That's right. But I think your knowledge is really cool because you have athletic background and you know the nutritional concerns of athletes

and what they need. And you also deal with people who have very profound conditions where you get to have a whole other array of knowledge. I think that's very cool. Why, thank you. Awesomely cool. Do you specialize in any particular populations or do you have like a niche that you really go after? I really work with eating disorders, specifically eating disorders and, and sport. I also do weight management, but we really

find that the three of those kind of all roll together. A lot of times you're working with an athlete, particularly a female athlete, you realize there's some disordered stuff going on there or some disordered thinking regarding their food beliefs or thoughts or how they're fueling themselves. But those are really the places where I feel like I'm really good at those areas. And, you know, if you've got somebody who's got renal disease or something like that, I will gladly refer because not all dietitians are created equal. Yeah. You were talking about that earlier. What, what do you really mean by that? By all dietitians are created equal. I remember you said earlier that you have to, you feel like you have to undo a lot of bad coaching from not necessarily other dietitians, but just, you know, from magazines and potentially other dietitians or sports nutritionists or personal trainers, or I'm sure people get their information from a million different sources. And that's a lot of

fixing and undoing on your part. Well, I like to, I like to give the example of, you know, if, if you have a heart problem, you're not going to go to a podiatrist well hopefully you wouldn't choose to go to a podiatrist i mean what's a podiatrist for the audience well uh a sort of a foot doctor so someone who actually uh works on your your feet which is which is great if you have a foot issue right but if something is wrong with your aorta you don't want to go to a podiatrist. And for a diet, I'm a dietitian who does a very specific type of nutrition. And, you know, I'm not your gal if you've got renal disease, you know, go to my friend Jill or go to my friend Meg, you know, and I think a lot of people lump dietitians into a category or nutritionists, which is one and the same in Tennessee, but not everywhere. You know, but we're not.

We think differently. We interpret research differently if we read it. You know, we don't all keep up. So not all dieticians are actively looking to the research to better themselves? I don't think so. And I think it's much like, it's like, you know, it's physicians too. It's healthcare in general. You want to go to someone who you feel like keeps up and not necessarily keeps up with what their little sect is feeding them,

but keeps up with a broad body of research, which is really hard to do. I mean, I'd like to read more than I do, but I'm very fortunate to be married to a geek who, you know, have research in my fingertips all the time. I don't think he's offended. I think he takes pride in it. No, no. That's one of the better things she calls me, actually. You did stand a little taller when she said that. Hey, I'm a geek.

Geek is such a positive word. If you called me that, I'd be super happy. But the thing is, you know, people come to me for specific issues. And I feel like if someone told me, if you're a jack of all trades, you're a master of none. And I think that's very true. And I think so many people try to do way too much. If you don't know how to help somebody figure out protein requirements, you're just going to stick to the point A RDA or whatever. Maybe you shouldn't be doing that. So maybe you should refer that to someone who can make appropriate recommendations for an athlete or someone who's actually maybe been an athlete and understands the pressures of that

because it's not about being healthy. It's about getting the 9.95. Excellent point. Performance and health, two different things, right? Exactly. In many cases, yes. Preach on, sister. So 0.8 grams per kilo is the RDA for protein.

Is that right? Yes. The maximum. So how did that value kind of come about? Do you have any background there or just values in general for RDAs? Like what does that even mean? What's an RDA, for example? Recommended daily allowance allowance which it meets the

the minimum need for 98 percent of the population so and the thing is we and I think as a as a population we have a one-size-fits-all approach that's absolutely not the case for you know if I've got a client who's got this issue we're leaving out one food altogether because her gut can't tolerate it you know you cannot take a one size grains grains are evil nothing but a paleo lifestyle ever we'll touch on that it depends on who you're working with and that's the thing is that you can't you know one one size doesn't fit all and you have to think about who you're working with and you have to think about is this a nutritional issue or is there a psychological component here, which most people totally forget. And I think women, being one, I can say this, but women a lot of times have a greater emotional connection with food specifically.

So it's a component that can't be dismissed. And it really is in a lot of instances. Being in the eating disorder world, not to totally stereotype eating disorders, but is that primarily women, or is that a misconception? Well, it is primarily women. It's not a misconception, but there is a greater incidence of men than we once thought. It's about 10% of people who seek treatment are men. I'd say that's true in my office, but I also think it's much greater, but because there's such a stigma related that there are a lot of men out there that have very disordered eating, if not clinical eating disorders that don't seek treatment because of the stigma. And men don't go to the doctor anyway.

Sure. I can see that. Oh, my left arm is totally numb. I just slept on it weird. But we also live, we also live in a culture that's very disordered period. So you could be practicing very unhealthy, say weight, weight management, you know, um, practices or whatever that you're doing and you feel, well, my friends are doing that. Or I heard this or the lady at whole Foods or Earth Fair or wherever you're going said this was a good idea. So, I mean, we have, we are actually promoting disordered eating in many environments and in a lot of sport environments, you know, aesthetic-based sports. If you're, say, a cheerleader and you're flying, the, you know, the old I was a long time

ago, the thought was you need to be really light to be a good flyer. You don't have to be really light. You just have to know how to hold your body. And, but, you know, it's like saying a coach can't, you know, someone who played football is going to make an awesome coach. It's not necessarily the case, right? We've talked about that. I can't even listen to a coach talk anymore. It just makes me want to go up. I can't even do it.

I actually wrote a post one time that says, just because you chew doesn't make you an expert. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. That's a very good point. Just because you eat food doesn't mean you know anything about it. Yeah. Or because you work at Whole Foods.

It's not exactly a real tight screening process to get a job there. I like Whole Foods. They have some quality stuff, but man. Whole paycheck. Yeah. You go into a restrat, you can figure it out and not blow everything. But man, there is some cookie shit in Whole Foods. Well, and I can tell you my favorite part of Whole Foods, I know the cheese monger.

So I'm spending more time with the cheese than I am the supplements. It's like, why does everybody smell like patchouli in here? Then you'll see a confused old lady or a hippie

trying to pick up two cans of organic X's and the other and trying to go, oh, can I do this? Well, which one should I get? And they clog up the whole fucking line.

The place is designed to deter flow in every conceivable way. Everywhere you go, it's like a bad dream. Hippies, hippies, old ladies, hippies, hippies, old ladies. You can't get in

and out of there in less than like 35 minutes. And then you have the people that are there. Even out of the people bagging your food. Like I was checking out and I got like

some Thai hot sauce. I can't remember. Sriracha? I don't remember. S-R-I-R-A-C-H-A. English, I don't know. But she goes, this Asian goes,

oh, I love this. I love that we carry this now, but too bad I switched to veganism. This has fish sauce and I can't have anything. Shut the fuck up. I suppose the one exception there was when I went to Whole Foods

during the Super Bowl and I was the only one there. when I went to Whole Foods during the Super Bowl, and I was the only one there. Really? And it was fantastic. Even hippies in America carry a bowl of football. I think I've never seen you say that in a whole store to myself. I tell you what, if you live in North Carolina, go shopping during the Daytona 500. You're going to be a soul.

I did that once, too. Do you want to go back to Tabata, we can talk sure training it optimally and then maybe tag team with the other shooting and say how do you recover from those optimally with stuff you put in your mouth okay real food we'll tag tabata real quick so again for those people in the audience that don't know tabata uh you you few few people out there or are you missing out it's 20 seconds work 10 seconds rest um coined by um i believe it's a japanese researcher is that right and crossfit uses it for all kinds of things 20 seconds worth 10 seconds rest 20 seconds on i don't know my tabata that's that's usually it's eight rounds for a total of four minutes

and then crossfit uses it in a whole lot of light where they can use any movement for those 20 seconds they could do any number of different movements for you know you do four minutes work on the first one take a minute break you do four minutes work on something else maybe did kettlebell swings the first time burpees the second time you row the third time or what have you but that really wasn't the original intent and you might know a lot more about that than i did it wasn't really the intent i mean the the moral of the story is Tabata used speed skaters, and speed skating is a mixed sport. So it has some aerobic components, some anaerobic components,

and he was trying to figure out the way to maximize both of the anaerobic and the aerobic pathways with one certain type of workout, and he kind of came across this one. And it's not bad, except that if you look at the study, he used really really really good speed skaters and they were exercising at 170 percent of vo2 max you you could call petting your dog tabata it doesn't make it tabata okay unless you can pet your dog at 170 percent vo2 max which i don't think you can do nor can you swing a kettlebell or do pull-ups or any other bullshit

like that at 170 percent vo2 max basically they're working at 100 effort they're at 170 percent view to me yeah yeah yeah basically yeah basically right but it was on a cycle ergometer so there's no rest period there's no eccentric component there's no you know pause period between reps or anything like that like a burpee or anything else or rowing or whatever it is because you don't have a catch so it's very unique to that sport or that that activity and to those athletes you can't just call anything a tabata the other thing you always hear is oh yeah well you know tabatas are great for weight loss they may be great for weight loss but that was not a measured variable in that study so don't say well yeah you know tabatas are great for weight loss like they may be but that would be anecdotal

that would not be the same as the research information out there because he wasn't caring caring about weight loss or body composition he's caring about speed skating really fast and that's my bit on tabata and i kind of my my take when i hear people going well i read this research is good so i'm gonna do my kettlebell swings i'm gonna do 20 on 10 off x times i'm gonna count this count that i'm gonna you know you should do quit fucking thinking so much and grab a heavier fucking kettlebell yeah you'll get much much stronger and better instead of timing out everything on a prowler just add another play and push it as hard as you can just push it as hard as you can and as soon as you think you can do it again do it again

yes i'm much more inclined to think that way than then try to count everything out because in my own past whenever i try to think too much about really anything, but let's talk about, let's narrow it down to training. Right. I'll just talk about these mistakes. Anytime you try to get too fancy or try to arrange or manipulate too many variables.

Anytime you think you're keeping track of it all, you're really just losing focus of the fact that what matters most importantly and anything is how hard you are fucking working. So you're saying that legalism is a bad thing when you apply it to your training. I think in my experience, whatever that's worth, look around sarcastically. Because I'm right there with you, buddy. I just see so many people who are guys who train almost every day. They're guys who train four days a week and do a lot of assistance work. They're guys who train four days a week and do a lot of assistance work.

There are guys who train four days a week and do no assistance work. There are guys who are truck drivers or one of the most famous pilots around right now is like a professional bodyguard, Constantine. You've seen Constantine. Like Whitney Houston bodyguard? Like you pay him to protect you if shit gets really bad really quick. But I think he trains like one or two days a week, maybe most of the time one day a week, and just trains obscenely heavy deadlifts.

He presses, he squats, he goes home. There are guys who do all this different stuff, and there are some guys who think about everything to the T, and some guys never think about anything. And they all get really strong, and sometimes they all fail. But it seems less important what you do and more important that you are working really, really hard. And you're smart enough to take a break when you need to.

But I get more and more focused on simplicity the older I get. And consistency. I think that's what people forget. You can't do 100% forever. There's like some key pillars to focus on. More like I think in terms like general calibration tools if you follow a couple principles no matter what you need to focus on what you're trying to get better at you'll be really successful if you just keep some general things in mind general progression uh patience

honestly assessing where you are and where you'd like to go and being reasonable some basic things then if you just work really hard, you're probably going to get there as long as you set reasonable goals and you take your time and your effort is appropriate. And I think reasonable is a word that a lot of people really need. I'm sure in diet world it works. Oh, I'm really fat now. It took me 30 years to get there.

In a year, can I look like Kate Upton? Leslie, will you help me do that? I'll pay you whatever you want. Who's Kate Upton upton oh shut up i never look at any of that stuff chris come on i saw that us weekly in your bag there i know what you're looking at that's his book club yeah it works for training it works for nutrition uh anything I guess. Where are you now, honestly, really out of shape, really weak, really fat? And where could you be in a month and six months reasonably? If you just take your time and be patient.

Let the lifestyle set in. Then before you know it, you're actually way farther than you thought you could get. Yeah. And I think we have a society, again, of people who are very black and white thinkers. We're on it. We're off it. It's hard to tell someone, I don't want you going into the gym and killing yourself the first day and working out an hour and a half to two hours. You totally screwed that up there.

You get so sore you can't even bend your knees for two weeks. Yeah, and you can't go back in for two weeks. And the thing is, you have to go into something. It's like the America on the move thing. It's like 10,000 steps a day. Well, if you've got Joe couch potato and he does 500 steps a day, it is totally, you know, not realistic to say, okay, Joe couch potato tomorrow, you're going to do 10,000 steps. What we need to do with Joe couch potato is say, you know, why don't you just wear a

pedometer for four days? Let's see where you're at. And obviously, you know, we do weight training too, but as an example, you know, 10,000 steps a day was not appropriate for most of the sedentary people in America. So, you know, having that. Boy, we are fat and lazy in this country. But it's, it's that thinking of it's all or nothing. And so people need to be really realistic and saying, you know what, this week I'm going to add 10 minutes to this. Or I'm really going to figure out, you know, what is my one RM on my squat? You know, be reasonable so then you can progress consistently. And we're so all or nothing, 100% that we usually, um, we're on something or we're off something instead of living it.

So you feel like step one for everybody is just to establish a baseline. Absolutely. And be realistic, you know, and really honest. It's hard. It takes a lot of humility to say, wow, this is just how fat or weak or out of shape I actually am. Damn. Well, you know, I wouldn't, you know you know, living in the world that I live in,

doing what I do, I feel like a shame approach doesn't work. I love shame. I'm not even Catholic and I love shame. Well, I would have to say if shame works, nobody would be in an unfortunate situation with their body. If shame really works.

They're not doing it right. So that's my that's my two cents on that um you know i don't think shaming someone i think being realistic and you know and not letting somebody um you know not push themselves i still think you need to push yourself and be but it needs to be in a way that they feel like they're moving their body and mind into a positive place. Yeah, I agree. So I have a question. With regards to nutrition, since you guys both have very different backgrounds

and kind of deal with very different people since you're kind of more on the clinical or what do you say, eating disorder side of things, excuse me, and you've been more in the sporting world your whole life, how does your guys' approach to nutrition for yourselves differ like do you guys you guys eat pretty similar the majority of the time do you make your own separate dinners or i'm a fan of bacon this i know i tell you what we do do first of all we eat at home a lot and we cook a lot that's one of the reasons that we built the kitchen we did so that in there is is part of the thing that the general public doesn't get you can't eat it oh charlie's no matter what you think you're eating on the

menu that's not as bad as something else you can't eat that way and be healthy so it's cheap it's low quality doesn't taste as good as what you'd cook in your kitchen i mean but it'd be and then people you know you know they probably have the same thing then they make cooking out to be something bigger than it really is it doesn't really take much once you learn a few things around the house so the answer to that question is you know we we do a lot of the similar things i've learned more from leslie about what we do than she's learned from me for sure and especially when it comes to behaviors around food i mean i can talk about the chemistry of it because it's you know i'm a geek geek, as we already established. And I can talk about that, but the behaviors that are wrapped up in food and why people eat what they do, which is somewhat related to the chemicals as well.

But I've learned a ton about that from her. Well, yeah, and like the brownie example we were talking about earlier, you are not going to sell me a brownie in a package. Forget it. It's just not going to happen. Because the thing is, I mean, eat something high quality and delicious and enjoy every bite. Word. And so we eat, we try to eat real food.

And, you know, every once in a while you have to grab a bar or you have to, you know, you have to eat something. So, I mean, there is, there is, there's that. And, you know, we don't, we don't eat perfectly. And that is not something that I strive to do because it's very unrealistic. And I think it sets people up for, um, for, for problems to feel like, you know, you've got to hit this crazy bar. I think you have to have standards and things you want to achieve. And I, and I'm a, I'm a believer of 80 20, but we were talking tonight. It's not, Ooh, yeah. Okay. I've done 80%. Now I can go crazy. I mean, that's not what it is. It's, you know, I do that on my one cheat day a week though. God, I love it. Well, and I will say that's something that I feel like we need to get away from. If you say something that you're cheating, then you're on a diet.

If you are, if you're putting in, if you're putting in foods and somebody brought you something decadent that you know doesn't fit into what your typical lifestyle or your typical way of eating and you enjoy it and you move on, there's nothing wrong with that. And probably if you got emotional satisfaction out of that little cheat you did, and it lowered your stress that much,

it's kind of like in this book, The Evolution Prescription, this doctor says, you know, well, red wine may or may not be good for you for all these chemical reasons. Turns out maybe that's bullshit because that doctor got caught manipulating his data. Yeah, resveratrol. The real benefit could be that if you have a beer or a glass of wine, it drops your stress. And that has profound effects on your health. So maybe you eat a real brownie.

A real brownie with big chunks of fucking caramel and chocolate in it. And it made you smile from ear to ear. And you relax on the couch. You forget about all your worries. That is worth the real brownie. Profound impact on your emotional well-being. And paying attention to the food that's the we're so programmed a lot of times to just okay this is my little portion of my rice and this is my little portion of my boiled chicken or whatever boring food you're deciding to eat

then you know how satisfying is that if you're sitting there and you're checking your emails at work and you're shoveling in whatever you've decided that's your lunch for that day, when you stop eating and you realize that you're, oh, your food is gone and I just did 14 emails and that's great. A lot of times we're still unsatisfied. So we're like, okay, I need to go to the vending machine or I need to do that. People do not pay attention to what they're eating. Therefore they need to eat more because they didn't experience the first time and we live in a society of food porn which is food tv now listen i like food tv and like like what brian said you know i like i like food tv it gives me some good ideas but i'm a dietician who deals with eating disorders and i am still triggered to go out and buy all this stuff and make what retro way or in a garden or whoever

just made um so it's it's very triggering and then it gives people this idea that um that's what eating or cooking really is and it's not you know the key to nutrition is there are two keys and it's not reading a food label or whatever. It's awareness. So know what you're doing and have a plan. I mean, it's that simple. And people fly by the seat of their pants and then they're going to end up in bigger pants. That's how it works. Don't go to the grocery store hungry. So, I mean, you know, it's, um, people just really need to pay attention and be realistic and try to define what real food is for them. It's not a processed fiber bar that people call health food.

So you said there's two things, awareness and have a plan. Awareness and planning. Awareness you kind of define loosely as know what you're doing, which is a big category. And that probably requires potentially years of study to really know what you're doing. Or a big a big category and that that probably requires potentially years of study to really know what you're doing or a couple weeks of writing it down and not being judged it's not not what are you actually what are you actually putting in your mouth that you don't realize it's not awareness of what it's awareness of how how you're eating are you eating in front of the tv are you you know you know like like I said, the stuff I've learned from Leslie.

You are born with cues that tell you when you're hungry, when you're full. So what do we do? We take the little spoon that turns colors when it's too hot, and we ram it down the kid's throat, and we keep pushing it. Eat it, eat it, eat it, eat it, eat it. And they turn their head away. That means they don't want to eat anymore. What do we do?

We keep trying to feed it to them, keep trying to feed it to them. So right from as soon as you switch to solid foods. If you don't finish this food, you are bad. Or you will not get a gold star. No. We unlearn people. So, you know, we unlearn those things. It's like, oh, geez, it took me 30 years to get fat. Yeah, it took you 30 years to get fat because your parents stuck that

fucking spoon in your face until you ate and ate and ate and ate and ate. And now you not only, you can't just say, okay, I'm going to eat paleo foods and I'm going to be all better. It's like, no, because you can still shove too much paleo food in your face because you don't have your hunger fullness. Don't eat the whole jar of almond butter because you're depressed. That's right. You'll get fat.

And the thing is, you might need that brownie. You might need to just eat a brownie and move on. Purge the emotions. A brownie. One brownie. A brownie. And that's the thing. A pan brownie.

You have to be able to allow yourself to eat something real. It reminds me of Brian's greatest story of the chick, the pizza eater. Remember who was on the Atkins dive? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was living at the Olympic Training Center. One of the interns. This was a long time ago. I was living in Chula Vista.

And this girl, she was really overweight. And she was really not in good shape for being you know 20 something whatever and she ate the toppings off an entire large papa john's pizza she's oh i can't eat the crust i'm on the edkins you ate the toppings off an entire large pizza for like a routine lunch like a routine lunch yeah they had to been 2 000 calories had to have been probably more i mean it's just cheese and pepperoni. I mean, it was good. Don't get me wrong.

It looked real good. But that's probably not going to get her where she needs to go. But back to awareness. Sure. People need to be just really candid with themselves about what they're doing. So, yeah. So, she ate the know top off of that because she is on a diet and diets seem really easy because their rules were usually really good rule followers for a while but when it comes to lifestyle choices

and paying attention to what's going on in your body that's a lot harder so awareness is something that can take somebody a year to be like oh wow honest ignorance they just don't know until somebody helps them through it and people don't the same person go oh i just can't i can't i've tried everything to lose weight i've tried everything to get in shape i just can't do it i've tried treadmills i've tried this diet and that diet but they're making those kind of mistakes well and the thing is i believe that you're born with everything you need i mean other than the grocery store i mean you're you're born with everything you need you're born with everything you need. I mean, other than the grocery store. I mean, you're born with everything you need.

You're born with self-regulation cues. Hello, your stomach growls. It means eat. Eat food. I mean, we practically have a gas light, but people don't pay attention to it because we're so busy controlling it or manipulating it in a way

because we've learned in our culture, if you're not on a diet or whatever, that you can't trust your body. Well, that's not true. It might take a while to get that back, but it's absolutely possible. People get lost in the unimportant details like, I must eat every three hours, this amount of this, that, and the other. Yeah.

When in reality, your physiology is not attuned to rigid, structured time eating. If you want to talk in paleological terms, sometimes you'd be really hungry, and it coincided with you having a lot of food. You'd eat all you could find. Sometimes you don't have a lot of food. You'd go without. Sometimes you would eat a handful of berries, this, that, and the other. So I guess being too strict in that legalistic mindset with training

and, in this case, diet is also very bad. And it sets people up for binging. I mean, the thing, you know, I think paleo is... Binging, let me be clear, binging is very fun. Yeah, what are your thoughts on paleo actually? A few things are so fun. You know, again, I don't take a legalistic approach to anything, but I think, first of all, I think a big problem with paleo

is that somebody put the last word on that as diet. You know, I think paleo is, you know, it's a lifestyle. It's a way of eating that I think is pretty, it's real food. Okay. Now, I think sometimes people get a little too legalistic with it, but I'm a firm believer if you're doing something and you call something a cheat, in your mind, you're really on a diet instead of

making a lifestyle change one thing amazes me is how anybody can be balls enough to write a book about it or call it a really a diet well I think that's about money that's about yeah yeah I know I I think it I just want to say okay tell me about payload okay eat. Okay, eat vegetables and meat and seeds and nuts and some fruit. That's not a fucking diet. There's not even like any, there's not really even huge limits on how much, whatever. Eat a lot of vegetation. Fill the rest of your stomach up with meat and some seeds and fat and stuff.

Eat a little bit of fruit. There you go. It's like a fucking two sentence diet i think you have to transition people because we're going from a culture of eat lettuce and you can eat 14 bags of it okay at a meal you could to to slow down and pay attention that's the thing that paleo is missing paleo is missing the innate and you would think innate would be something that they didn't miss but the innate ability to listen to your body and know that you've got these regulation cues that help guide you you're right like the every eat every three hour thing well you know what if you ate three hours ago and you had your bacon and your eggs and your fruit and whatever and your butter, whatever.

And then three hours later, okay, it's 10 o'clock now. I have to eat. Well, if you're not hungry, friends, you're overeating. So I don't think that's a good idea. So, I mean, you really have to be able to balance that with, you know, your own, use your own logic to make some of these decisions. With eating frequency and also, let me tickle Brian's fancy on this one. Do you think, like in terms of training, people get lost at details. Do you think the details of macronutrient intake really matter

in terms of maximizing athletic performance? Okay, I want to gain muscle. I'm going to count every gram of protein I consume like this was my religious calling. And if one day I get 50 grams too little, I go into deep depression. I got to eat. I got to make up for it.

I got to do this. I got to do that. Does it really matter how much day-to-day protein you eat? I think that's a fantastic question. Now, I don't have a research article to recite for you. I can't believe anything you're about to say. At the moment.

Well, I think you'll really appreciate this. And I'm not sure anyone can disprove what I'm going to say, but maybe they can. Your brain thinks in 24-hour segments. Your body doesn't. Okay? Your body doesn't. Okay? Your body, think about, go back in time, you know, and, you know, some days you had a lot to eat because, hey, we killed something juicy today. It was great.

You know? Or a soup bowl. Or you had a lot to eat. And then you didn't have a lot to eat for the next two days or three days or whatever it is. Our brain thinks or we manipulate and we think in 24-hour segments, today was a good day or today was a bad day. My spreadsheet was fantastic today with my food, which is a little much. But we think that way. Your body doesn't really operate that way.

I think it's important to get what you need on a day-to-day basis, but it's really the balance over time versus, you know, I got exactly what I needed. You hit the nail on the head in this 24-hour window. But I do think it's important to pay attention to that, but not, you know, totally beat yourself up if you happen to, you know, misstep a day or two. Mark Staley Apple had a good post. I never say his last name because I can't remember. Sisson?

Mark's last name. I always just said Sisson. You got to make sure you put the dollar signs in the middle of two S's. Yeah. A lot of the things, I mean, I like a lot of the posts. One of the ones that was reasonable is that, you know, there was a TED Talk, made the rounds a couple months ago this this physician who got very very ill on a western diet got like multiple sclerosis or

something was in a wheelchair researched a paleo diet in her keywords here maximize the the amount it spread to the crossfit community but she started exploring from a nutritional perspective how to correct her condition omega-3s uh grass-fed meats wild-caught fish loads and loads and loads of vegetation she advocates like two full dinner plates each of uh green leafy vegetables sulfur containing cruciferous vegetables. Is that right? I'm trying to think back to nutrition class. Fucking broccoli, and everything looks like broccoli. And then a big couple plates full of bright, colorful veggies and fruits.

And she's like, every day, eat this, and your disease will go away. Wow, round of applause. Brilliant TED idea. And the Mark guy, on a not overly self-promotional blog post commented like yo that's that's i commend her for that but that's a hell of a thing to try to do every day and as soon as you start thinking about day-to-day must get this must get that how big are those plates is that a seven inch plate or a nine inch plate because there's a seven inch plate that ain't gonna be i looked at it i looked at it i go i i'm not gonna be able to eat that much fucking greens a day.

That's crazy. And I put a lot of greens. You'd be in the toilet half the time. I put greens, greens, greens in my shakes. I'm eating greens at breakfast. I'm eating greens at dinner. I'm not getting anywhere close. But he's like, you know, what matters most is this sort of, there's days of bounty. There's days where there's no bounty.

So one day I came across red cabbage. I ate and enjoyed what I found. The next day I find green leafy vegetables that I find a good deal at the grocery store on. Some sort of purple ass fruit. Oh, I'll get that. And stacking up the benefits of each thing over the course of a month gave you a pretty good wide array of nutrients. So it's very good. You made a good point there in that there's one of the strengths of the paleo is that people don't realize that the stuff that you call food is meant to trick your body to make you eat more. I mean, the stuff that's processed and put in boxes and bags is meant to make you eat more.

I mean, all you got to do is, I mean, as poorly written as the book is leslie knows the one i'm talking about right now where he talks to all the restaurant the restaurant people and how they manipulate fat salt and sugar to make you eat more it's it's not just that it's this this food is not good for you it's meant to make you not think about the hunger fullness cues that you were born with it's meant to fool those systems so by limiting food choices to more natural foods, you're going to at least move in the right direction in some things when it comes to the behavior. Now, you're eating your food in front of the TV. That's still not a good behavior. But you be more in tune to when you're feeling full and when you're not

if you're eating foods that are actually really food. I think that's something we have to remember, too. We talk about paleo and we're out hunting and gathering and all that. You can't eat all the foods that say she would eat all in one day if you go back in that time, because there are seasons for food. There are seasons. Now we can, we can have any food we want in any season. And that's wonderful. We don't live back then. We live right now. now and we have to we have to be realistic about that and realistic about you know you work at a desk you know you're not out chasing the deer all day long and then there's and then there's and then if the faults the faults are there's all

these little interesting i guess from evolutionary perspective all these little interesting case studies you can make like you need xyz wide array of vegetables every day okay well then there are inuits who for eons have eaten fucking blubber and seal blubber and have zero cancer heart disease risk have amazing overall cardio story fitness and wellness has been crazy awesome unique adaptations of cold and weather and performance that were very yeah but they all have brain damage from the ketones just picking no that's not true i had some guy telling me that though and he i said i said so really you're telling me that all the inuit had brain damage oh yeah they're cognitively disabled that's why they talk in that weird language it was that was a case of

selective referencing yeah oh yeah which is rampant in the world of research and again and then again we fall back to the theme of uh poor research interpretation yeah and again for the audience when you're not eating any carbohydrates which inuit people would not be doing they'd be not a all-fagging carbohydrate to be found i guess i guess pure fat pure protein whatever's in the flesh of that seal other than that none right so pure fat protein diets, no carbs to be found, and then your brain still has to run off something. For the most part, it runs off glucose. As a result of not having any carbohydrates, you produce ketones,

which kind of fuel your brain and a variety of other things. And they're a satiety signal, which means that if you go into ketosis, you tend to eat less that's your body basically figuring out like hey there's not a whole lot of food around right now i better tell myself that i don't need a whole lot of food otherwise i'm gonna go crazy because i'm gonna be hungry all the time and we do have those adaptations and i think i see that in the world of eating disorder when i've got somebody who's who's who's very calorically restricted and they come in and they say hey i'm I'm really not hungry. Well, their body is physiologically hungry, obviously.

They're emaciated, whatever. But how would it feel if you had hunger sensations or hunger pangs all day long? It's a survival mechanism. It's an adaptation. Now you can only survive so long, but it's true. I mean, your body has to adapt in that way so but they come back when you you learn how to eat again right they can't come back i do feel like one of the pros of the paleo the paleo diet is you can take someone who doesn't know anything about food and you can

explain if it wasn't around 10 000 years ago you shouldn't eat it and now they have this super easy way to judge if something is good for them. You can explain the research and processed food and all kinds of different concepts to them all day, but it just provides people with no knowledge base and an easy way to hash out yes or no, should I eat this or not. It's a lot easier to be happy when you went to work with a belly full of bacon and eggs. That's right.

Versus a bowl of granola. And espresso. Don't forget the espresso. Versus a cereal bar. I mean, oh, cereal bars. That was the death of me. I remember one time in my life. This is the biggest crime ever that we somehow convince ourselves that we shouldn't eat bacon in the morning.

Well, we're all about bacon. If you really think about it, I don't talk calories that much in my office except to kind of give people an idea if they think they need 1200 which is totally ridiculous like you know you probably need something like 45 big difference here so you know that's kind of how i use it more as an fyi but think about it two pieces of bacon it's less than 100 calories what are you what are you crying over it's it's ridiculous yeah you can't really you can't even really overeat on bacon if you overeat on bacon at one meal you probably won't eat the rest of the fucking day so you're good your overall calorie content's gonna be fine if you're practicing awareness if you're practicing awareness and you're like dude i'm i'm not hungry this is my normal lunch time um so so move on yeah

and and you know it's it's not um i mean having it's real food it's not a big deal i tell people look at the look at the ingredients on butter, okay? Cream, salt. I'm down with that. Look at the ingredients on Smart Balance or whatever. Love me some salt. I can't, I don't even know how to pronounce that. And this is my job.

It's like petroleum byproducts and shit in there, right? Well, and the thing is, I mean, think about before we had food labels, okay? Before we had food labels, we didn't have an overweight population. We didn't have a society that is rampant with disordered eating, whether anorexia or bulimia or binge eating or compulsive overeating or whatever it may be. We had people who ate when they were hungry. They stopped when they were full.

They worked outside. They got plenty of vitamin D, and we were a healthier population now i think if you can use we defeated the germans if you can if you can use a food label as knowledge okay if you can use a food label as knowledge that's great if you use it as a weapon it's not helpful so i mean going back to paleo and like yeah you know if you can't hunt it or kill it or whatever, if your great-grandmother didn't eat it, then maybe you shouldn't eat it that much. I mean, we don't want to be legalistic about it. But, you know, I think that's a pretty good guideline to help people figure out what real food is.

I mean, if you're going to eat a potato chip, don't eat a baked one. It's like a reconstituted mashed potato with all kind of extra it just is bad for you stuff and you know the ingredient on a plain potato chip is potato oil salt or better yet sounds better to me you get some high quality oil get you some potatoes cut them thin rinse the excess starch off you know fry them to a crisp put a little fresh salt on them and enjoy a real fucking potato chip. And I think that's wonderful for the person who that doesn't totally freak out. But remember,

you've got to graduate that person to the 10,000 steps. There are people who are ready for that, and there are people who aren't, and it's important to meet people where they are so that you can get them where they need to be. I just fussed at them for not being good enough. We're going to work on you and your shame stuff.

Yeah. You can't even cook homemade gourmet French fries. What are you worth? Nothing. Your ass looks like 150 pounds of chewed bubble gum. How tall are you? He's going to pay for that comment. You just pay.

Should we close the loop on, in the back of my mind, I want to close the loop on what Brian thinks is good instead of Tabata. What is the good approach to interval training? I have a curiosity in the back of my mind, and I'd like to hear Leslie say briefly, how would you recover optimally from that? What are some general things to keep in mind? All right. The optimal interval training workout. Let's say, sorry to interrupt you, but I want to maybe, let's say, I just want to get in a little better shape and lose a little bit of weight.

I want the high-level outcomes of this kind of conditioning. The main thing you have to do is you have to do something that's going to involve a lot of muscle mass. Doing curls and triceps kickbacks is not going to be your interval training. So something that involves a lot of muscle mass, gets you breathing hard, and has some variety in it. Because if you really want to get in shape, you're going to have to stick with it for a while. Consistency. And consistency actually is related to variety. You're going to have to put some variety in your training.

Different modes, different intensities, different work-to-rest ratios. Add a frequency that is commensurate with your abilities. So if you start out really out of shape, maybe once or twice a week, and as you get better shape, you can probably do a little bit more often. And that's in a nutshell. Help, I'm in a nutshell. And then how would you eat to recover from that? Well, you've got to stay hydrated.

I think that's the number. People forget water is a nutrient. And if you're not staying properly hydrated, you can eat too much because you have mixed cues. So one, be very well hydrated. I drink coffee all day. Is that a problem?

Well, the antioxidants are great, but you should probably switch it up. I will chat. I'm digging here. I'm tickling. I'm tickling. Not probably switch it up. I'm digging here. I'm tickling. I'm tickling. Not tickling like that. I'm tickling in your brain because there's been recent research that didn't really matter.

You're talking from a diuretic standpoint. Coffee was not a big-time diuretic. Oh, I'm not worried about that from a diuretic standpoint. I'm exploring the details here. Okay, so if you drink coffee or tea whatever yay hooray they're both high in antioxidants so uh but throw in some water i can't focus on enough just how much coffee okay so throw in some bacon and yeah post-workout bacon that's all you need to know the thing is that put in the bottle probably probably um you know you a lot of people when

they're doing super high intensity exercise like that, lose hunger cues for a little while afterwards. So I think this is a place where preemptive planning really is important. So having kind of that post, am I rolling into a meal and is this meal appropriate? You know, from a storage standpoint, you gotta, you gotta think about that. It's a good place for, you know, higher protein. And, you know, if you're doing, you know, your sweet potato or your veggies or whatever, and your body will adapt. But I think it's important to have that planned because when you are, when you have the hunger cues that hit you later after, you know, the minimization of

hunger after that high-intensity exercise, you can totally set yourself up to overconsume. So the big thing there is planning and knowing what you do have available there. I'm feeling that right now. I'm starving. I didn't have anything after training. And I'm not. Listen, I drink a protein shake like the next person, and I think it's funny that we didn't have that a long time ago. But anyway, I like them. But I think it's something that if someone is doing a midday workout and they do need something recovery,

and they would typically have a snack at that time, to have something like that for recovery purposes and then move on to a meal. So to kind of sum that up and make it bare bones simple, you're saying that after you have some type of super high intensity workout you lose hunger cues you might not eat right away and then when you do eat you're super hungry and you could overeat or not make the best choices absolutely so to kind of moderate that having something prepared ahead of time might be the best kind of environmental thing to to not have you.

Or at least know what you're doing. Like, I know I can go home and I'm going to make this lettuce wrap with yummy chicken and nuts or whatever I'm going to do. So, I mean, half of the battle is thinking it through. And that's the thing people don't do is they totally screw up a workout because they have no idea how to feel afterwards. And it's really just thinking about what you're going to do. You know, I think, you know, having, you know,

a good source of protein there is always a plus, but making sure that you know what you're going to do, because if you get too hungry, I mean, you're calling dominoes. So this all comes back to being organized and having a plan. Awareness and planning. A general plan is one thing I think people get started getting caught up on is like what ratio of macronutrients to have which i include in the shake will create them will list that in the

other like just fucking eat some food remember you have to use nutrition information as knowledge and not a weapon because you can really shoot yourself in the foot when you you overthink it it's like it's going up on the platform and you're and you're doing getting ready for a cleaning jerk and you're overthinking and it's paralysis by analysis and you throw it over your head so don't don't throw your food over your head right actually we'll we'll touch on coffee real quick and then we'll wrap things up i know i know you're super coffee fiend you're a super coffee fiend let's say right now in that boat too yeah three super moment we have three yeah you could have a you could have a a little yeah i do if you're on breastfeed i guess it's tricky because

i guess jenny does we don't want to give max caffeine but we're gonna have a mess in our hands but i think we have three people here who are obsessed with coffee generally i know i am james at four five coffee i feel like if i couldn't have coffee, I wouldn't say I would. I'd kill myself. But I'd say, boy, life is just a lot, a lot big time sucky. I give up sweets forever. I give up a lot of things forever. Not coffee.

Maybe there's addiction, but maybe I don't care. I don't care. It's the most habitually used drug. God, it's a great drug. It makes you happy happy it primes your a productive day it's got a crap load of antioxidants

it tastes freaking amazing if you make it the right way there's some select ways which you should be making it 15 bars of pressure yeah for espresso

there's no freaking X in that word espresso espresso yeah I can't I can't rave about There's no friggin' X in that word. Espresso. Espresso. Yeah, I can't rave about it. That's the only thing I drink during workouts. For many, many years now, I make a big-ass coffee, I go to the gym, I drink it, and it fuels everything.

I love it. Well, and it's a lot cheaper than buying some of these stimulant supplements that have other things in them. I do like a Blue Monster monster a little bit of carbon there i like the the weird medicinal taste of it keep it pg i don't want to hear about your blue monster oh monster with a nickname uh yeah the coffee is so superior in every way well and if you think about i think that's probably is a better choice than a lot of other things people are choosing um but you have some people can't handle the gifx so again that would be lot of other things people are choosing but you have to some people can't handle the gi effect so again that would be one of those things like i'm going to have as much

coffee as chris does during a workout i don't get it it makes you go yeah and if like you're a professional athlete or something you're going to be doing that while you're in the middle there's a lot of soluble fiber and coffee is that what it was or is it something else it's the caffeine acting on the caffeine yeah the stimulant effect yeah i mean so there's there's a lot of soluble fiber in coffee. Is that what it was? Or is it something else? It's the caffeine acting on the gut. The caffeine acting. Yeah, the stimulant effect. The stimulant effect, yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of good things.

There's a lot of research that says there's a lot of antioxidants in coffee. You hear a lot about antioxidants. Matter of fact, the Daily Apple just had a post about that. I think it was Monday about drinking coffee and whether or not it's a diuretic. I read that right before I spent $200 on coconut-infused protein powder. Oh, right no i didn't so critical thinking that's right but uh yeah i mean in the one of the interesting things there's there's a few studies out there that can that compare coffee versus caffeine pills and the

coffee doesn't do as well as far as performance now the question is is can you possibly be exactly sure how much caffeine you're getting in the coffee? But it may be that the other ingredients in the coffee negate some of the performance-enhancing effects of the coffee. It doesn't make it taste any less good and make it any less good for you. But as far as from a strictly performance standpoint, coffee may not be as good as caffeine. It sure tastes better. We're referring to mostly endurance sports? Most of that research comes from endurance sports i mean that that research is 40 years old i mean

that's dave costell stuff and swimmers way way way way way back one of my old professors is going to be mad at me i said that because she actually did some of that but uh i mean that was a long time ago most of the newer stuff is there's more current research that's anaerobic in nature. And so I don't think anybody's ever looked at that comparison again. But, you know, there's also, you can't also forget the fact that if you're drinking hot coffee, you may actually warm your body up. You know, just like drinking cold things really cools your body down. To bring back Alexey, he used to drink a cup of coffee to quote, rouse the body before training. He also used to drink a lot of vodka and eat a lot of caviar

too, so I'm not sure where that fall fits in. And didn't Suleimanglu used to smoke in between Olympics? He was a chain smoker. Yeah, a lot of those Eastern Europeans are, especially the Turks, man. A cup of coffee and a cigarette between the snatch and clean and jerk workouts.

Is that good recovery? Those guys did good. Mental recovery. You're all about psychology. What if I steeped the tobacco in my coffee? There is a lot with the mental component there. I mean, I used to work with a basketball player. He would eat Reese's Pieces and a hot dog and drink a real Coke before every basketball game. He was with a basketball player. He would eat Reese's Pieces and a hot dog

and drink a real Coke before every basketball game. He was a pro basketball player. This is the NBA. Who are we talking about? I know who she's talking about. I'm a little story. And he would eat it. I mean, he would do it every game.

But the thing is, he was on fire. But there was something with the psychology component in his superstition, and that worked for him so not like I recommended I was like I just need to get hold of him we could see what he could really do that guy ain't playing no more we'll have to stay tuned next week to find out

who it is right teaser same bat time same bat channel alright we actually do need to wrap it up any closing thoughts closing thoughts appreciate you guys coming out Bat time, same bat channel. All right. We actually do need to wrap it up. Any closing thoughts? Closing thoughts. Appreciate you guys coming out.

No problem. Thanks for having us. You bet. We could have kept on going for a long time. Yeah. Doug Larson, Chris Moore. Hello. Dr. Brian Schilling.

Yeah. Everything he just said, you better go back and review it closely. I'm telling you. And Leslie Schilling of Schilling Nutrition. SchillingNutrition.com. Is that right? SchillingNutrition.com. That's right. All right. Thanks, guys. I'm telling you. And Leslie Schilling, Schilling Nutrition. SchillingNutrition.com, is that right? SchillingNutrition.com. That's right.

All right, thanks guys. Thank you. Later.