Barbell Shrugged - Fascia: The Mystery Tissue That Controls Mobility, Performance, and Longevity w/ Jill Miller  — Barbell Shrugged #359

Episode Date: November 28, 2018

Jill Miller, C-IAYT, ERYT is the co-founder of Tune Up Fitness Worldwide and creator of the self-care fitness formats Yoga Tune Up and The Roll Model Method. With more than 30 years of study in anatomy and movement, she is a pioneer in forging relevant links between the worlds of fitness, yoga, massage, athletics and pain management.   She is known as the Teacher’s Teacher and has trained thousands of movement educators, clinicians, and manual therapists to incorporate her paradigm shifting self-care fitness programming into athletic and medical facility programs internationally. In this episode, we talk about collagen vs. elastin, how the heel is connected to the back of your eye socket, mastering slide and glide of tissues, why your fascia tells the story of your life, and much more.   Enjoy! - Doug and Anders   P.S. Check out the last episode with Jill: Why You Need to Recover as Hard as You Train w/Jill Miller — Barbell Shrugged #251. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Show notes at: http://www.shruggedcollective.com/bbs_miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Please support our partners! @thrivemarket - www.thrivemarket.com/shrugged for a free 30 days trial and $60 in free groceries   ► Subscribe to Barbell Shrugged's Channel Here ► Subscribe to Shrugged Collective's Channel Here http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedSubscribe 📲 🎧 Listen to the audio version on the Apple Podcast App or Stitcher for Android Here- http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedApple http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedStitcher Shrugged Collective is a network of fitness, health and performance shows that help people achieve their physical and mental health goals.  Usually in the gym, but outside as well. In 2012 they posted their first Barbell Shrugged podcast and have been putting out weekly free videos and podcasts ever since. Along the way we've created successful online coaching programs including The Shrugged Strength Challenge, The Muscle Gain Challenge, FLIGHT, Barbell Shredded, and Barbell Bikini. We're also dedicated to helping affiliate gym owners grow their businesses and better serve their members by providing owners tools and resources like the Barbell Business Podcast. Find Shrugged Collective and their flagship show Barbell Shrugged here: SUBSCRIBE ON ITUNES ► http://bit.ly/ShruggedCollectiveiTunes WEBSITE ► https://www.ShruggedCollective.com INSTAGRAM ► https://instagram.com/shruggedcollective FACEBOOK ► https://facebook.com/barbellshruggedpodcast TWITTER ► http://twitter.com/barbellshrugged

Shrug family, for a long time I dated terrible girls. Don't be offended ladies, I was a douchey dude and the things douchey dudes are best at is attracting terrible girls. Terrible girls are frustrating, you date them three weeks, realize it's going nowhere, you stick it out for another five until you just can't take it anymore and finally break it off. You go through the breakup process. Everyone is hurt and the first thing you say is, why are all these girls so terrible?

This goes for you too ladies. How many times in your life have you said, I'm so sick of these douchey dudes, where are all the good guys? I said this enough to realize that terrible girls weren't the problem. The problem was, I was a douchey dude, and I was only capable of attracting terrible girls. I realized if I ever wanted to stop the terrible girl dating cycle, I was going to have to break up with being a douchey dude. So the last time I broke up with a terrible girl, instead of doing what I always did and finding the next terrible girl, I stopped dating altogether. I tried to develop traits that a respectable girl would want to date. Stability, maturity, a successful business, selflessness.

You know, the things that make you a marriable human. Six months later, I went on my first date with my wife. Breakups are hard. They suck. Nobody likes them. But in order to grow, we have to become comfortable leaving our current beliefs, friends, businesses, and self to grow into the person that we want to be. Want better relationships? Break up with being a douchey dude and a terrible girl.

Want to make more money? Break up with low-paying clients and overloading yourself with group classes. Want to be a better athlete? Break up with your training partners. Find a better crew. The only constant in my life over the last two years has been my wife. I've had to break up with best friends, multiple businesses, mentors, and my entire inner circle of friends is new. The beauty in breakups is creating resources, space, time, money, and energy that you can allocate to growing into your future self. Breaking up is not easy, but it's a skill that you must become comfortable with. To become the person, coach, and athlete you want to be in two years,

what people, actions, and beliefs will you have to break up with to get there? Our guest today is Jill Miller. When I started hosting Shrugged, she was at the very top of my list for people I wanted to interview. I've been a fan since learning about her work through MobilityWOD in 2011. For this interview, Jill got off an international flight from Germany at the FASHA Research Congress and sprinted over to tell us everything she learned. There is also a new voice, Dr. Jen Escare, co-hosting with us for the first time. Jen has been a guest on the show before, was one of my very first interviews, and one of my favorite

people to hang out with. Every time I'm around her, I always seem to be having a great day. Please get over to DougLarsonFitness.com. Doug has a deal going that ends at midnight tonight on his course, Movement Specific Mobility. You can use the coupon code MSM50 to save 50% on that course. Movement specific mobility. Coupon code MSM 50 to save 50% at DougLarsonFitness.com. If you love the show, please take a screenshot. Tag me at Anders Varner and at Shrug Collective. And say thank you, Jill Miller.

Doug Larson and I will be in New York this weekend for Strong New York with Jen Widerstrom and Kenny Santucci. So if you're in the New York area, please come by Solace New York and say hello. That's enough out of me. Hit me up on Instagram at Anders Varner. If you would like to connect, let's get into the show with Jill Miller.

Welcome to Barbell Shrugged. I'm Anders Varner hanging out with Doug Larson, Dr. Jen Esquer, and Jill Miller. Welcome to the show again. You know what's super cool about this? This is Dr. Jen Esquer. Can we call you Doc Jen Fett? That's fine. I feel like every time you want to, it's like Doc Der.

It has such a good ring to it. We asked you to come co-host with us because you're awesome. And then I was like, why don't you just find somebody that you want to hang out with so we can have a really cool conversation. She picked you. And I thought that was phenomenal because I want to hang out with you too. We're going to have a really cool conversation. The microphone is in my mouth, you guys.

You can pull it away just a little bit. It's like re-lipsticking my poor lips. Last night, Brett Contreras was on that microphone. I'm going to bring it a little closer. There you go. I love Brett. That's inspiring.

You like Brett Contreras a lot? I have his book. Which one? Strong Curves? Yes, Strong Curves. Victory Belt published so when I first signed my contract, they sent me a bunch of Victory Belt books and that was the one that was like, I want to read that one.

Yeah. And also because I've been doing some hip rehab and he's got he's the glute guy so he's got great stuff. He's got it all. Yeah. We were hanging out at the glute lab last night. We recorded there until like 10 last night. It was pretty crazy. Is it here now? It's got it all. Yeah. Yeah, we were hanging out at the Glute Lab last night. We recorded there until like 10 last night. It was pretty crazy. Is it here now?

It's in San Diego. San Diego. Pacific Beach. I thought it was in Arizona. It was until January this year. Now you should come hang out with us. I'm so confused. Okay, I got to get up to date.

I will. I was just in San Diego a week ago. Okay, now I'm in San Diego and Brett Contreras is in San Diego and we should all hang out. It was my dad's birthday, so I didn't tell anybody I was there. I'm not offended. Okay, now I'm in San Diego and Brett Contreras is in San Diego, and we should all hang out. It was my dad's birthday, so I didn't tell anybody I was there. I'm not offended. Okay. You just got off a plane from Berlin. True.

You were hanging out at the FASHA. I know. I can't believe you're even here. The FASHA conference. You didn't even go home. You came straight to podcasting. It's easier to get here than my home, so this was on the way. That's true.

This is from the airport, yeah. LAX. LAX. Wow. What were you doing in Berlin? LAX connective tissue in Los Angeles. Our airport is named after sad connective tissue. Yeah, I was at the Fascia. You would

relate it to that. You would. I've never done that before, actually. That's because I just came back from the Fascia Research Congress in Berlin. The fifth one. The fifth one? Yes. How many have you been to? No, the sixth one. The sixth one. I've been to three.

I missed the first two. Is this like an invite only? I didn't get the invite to the FASHA conference. Yeah, you do have to be kind of special, right? No, there's no invitation. You just, it's... Only seven people show up anyways. We're all special because we heard about it.

No, actually it was oversold. They had to get an overflow room. Nice. So that was amazing. Fash is catching on. Yeah. Well, the research just keeps increasing and increasing. Yeah.

And there have been like, actually even just last week, there was a CNN article on FASHA. Oh, wow. As in, you know, CNN. Is it Central News Network? I don't know. I always called it central news network i don't know i was called a constantly negative news okay so anyway i never even thought about what cnn stands for i know me neither constant negative news goes pretty well though yeah news in general the world is burning down on cnn any time i've ever seen it i only see in the airport but i walk by the screen and it's like the fucking world is ending when everything is bad. I'm like, I gotta get out of here.

The airport really is a great place to just see what's going on in the world. You see all the people and you're like, oh, this is where all the unhealthy people hang out. And then you see the news and you're like, we're all gonna die. I hang out in airports. I'm not unhealthy. You're the one.

You're the one that gets off the plane and doesn't go to the McDonald's. No. There's a Chipotle in the baltimore airport and right next to the chipotle is the mcdonald's the line at mcdonald's is five times as long as chipotle every time i'm there and i'm just like i want to take a picture and just be like why don't you want the chicken and fajitas over here? There's healthy-ish food this side. McDonald's owns Chipotle. Why did you know that?

This is a total record scratch. Everyone was like, not anymore. No, I know that they did, but I don't think they do anymore. Maybe. Okay. Let's just fact check that. No, no, no. Well, I know that they did. Check your facts.

I do know that they did buy a large chunk of Chipotle. But I don't know if it's... If they still own that chunk? Sam, check that out. I'm just joking. This is what people want to know. They really want to know. What is going on in the world of fascia?

If you just flew all the way to Berlin to talk about fascia, what's going on? To learn all the things. So the Fascia Research Congress includes what I call the the titans of fascia research uh robert schleich thomas finley i'm going to say names that are probably not relevant to maybe all the listeners here but um but then really for us as movers it's about figuring out well then what are the best applications of integrating the fascia research into how we're training? And so that goes into periodization. That goes into the types of movement we're doing.

That goes into, well, what types of movement can we use to decrease inflammation in our tissues or to increase it, you know, to create the good stuff or the bad stuff? There's so many different things to think about. And the movement of fluids, I mean, they're talking about microscopic stuff for the most part. And a lot of the science I can't process because I wasn't a cell biologist, although that was my original interest in high school. I thought I wanted to be a microbiologist. But when I open an organic chemistry book you just shut down that's not stimulating anymore yes would rather dance there a practical version of this exactly yeah right so but there were people that you might like if you guys are familiar with Gil Headley like he has a famous video called the fuzz

speech which is probably been the most watched comp like it's a just a seven minute video you should type it into youtube i mean he's gone way beyond that but i mean he's way beyond that he's one of my dear friends and his images of fashion are actually in my book but um you know gil is one of these people that is really good at translating this for common folk to understand. That's why I mentioned the fuzz speech. If you have no understanding of what fascia is, that's actually a good thing to just look up. And then people like Thomas Myers. Thomas Myers, the creator of anatomy trains.

So he's created a fascial model, which are trains of the linkages of myofascial structures. And he's got 14 different trains, 12 of which have been verified in different studies. And so he was there. And who else was there? My friend, Sue Hitzman, she created the melt method. She was there.

I had a friend named Beau Forbes, who's in the yoga, well, not kind of the peripheral yoga space. And she does stuff with social justice and movement and fascia. I mean, so there's there's all of these different people who are and there were you know athletic trainer sue falzoni was there let me just name drop for the next 10 minutes i'm just trying to recall everybody

people i need to go research now uh yeah well sue's book bridging the gap is amazing from rehab to performance uh god who else will well so but anyway so there's there's the researchers who are like you know in the lab with these electron trifocal cool laser microscopes things that you'll never well you might get near because you've been privileged to go into lots of labs right you were a kinesiology person i don't know that person but but i i have a i'm familiar with fascia and specifically thomas myers is probably the most commonly mentioned or cited person in the world of strength conditioning but the whole concept of anatomy trains or myofascial meridians i think is really really interesting yeah um in fact on that note like we've mentioned fascia and we mentioned those things that i've mentioned and still most people in our audience probably don't even know

like the basic basic basics of this whole world. What is fashion? Before we get to the congressional level, what's the more digestible level? Yeah, just the basics here. Should we rotate you around? Fashion 101. You've got sun in the face over here.

Sun's going down. Beautiful sunset at Deuce Gym tonight. Jill Miller's in the house. I'm actually fine being blasted with the sun because I had no vitamin D for four days straight. I was in airports and a hotel. So this is nice. There you go. Yeah, I need it on my skin.

So at a... Okay, your fascia develops embryonically when you're 50 cells old in something called the mesoderm. Cool. That might be too sciencey. But when we're talking about it in a performance understanding, you have different layers of fascia, although that's controversial now to say that we have layers of fascia. But you can easily touch the most superficial part, and that's your fat. Your superficial fascia is what's on the

surface. It's right underneath the skin. It's pinned to the skin. In fact, your skin is connected to the superficial fascia via more fascia. So your fascia is your seam system. It interconnects everything. It goes from skin down to bone. It is the soft tissue scaffolding that gives your muscles their shape. It also gives your muscles their ability to glide within themselves, within a muscle, and also in and amongst other muscles. So if you didn't have fascia, you wouldn't have form or shape. You wouldn't be alive. I had never really considered before. Every time you look at an AMI textbook, you see like it starts with the skeleton.

And there's no soft tissue or bones. I'm sorry. There's no muscles and everything. It's just a bunch of bones. And so I never really had considered before digging into Thomas Meyer's works that my bones aren't like the structure themselves. The bones are basically like floating in your soft tissues. Correct. That was like opposite of kind of how I ever viewed it before, where I feel like

the bones were the structure and then the soft tissues were tacked to the bones. And now I feel like the soft tissues are the structures and the bones are just floating within the soft tissues. Yes. Well, everything is pressurizing everything, but the bones could be looked at as, they are a connective tissue. They just have an abundance of calcium in them, right? To give them a firmer structure, but your bones are soft. I mean, I could bend my bones right now. I'm grabbing my forearm and squeezing my ulna and radius and action. You can actually, and I'm not just moving the bones of the joint. I'm actually, they're very water fillic, right? They're filled with

a lot of fluid. So, you know, bones are not a bone. Your bones are not a stone. I actually have one on my desk because I had part of my hip removed a year ago. And that's a, that's pretty hard now that bone, but your bones are, are soft. They're a connective tissue. So your fascial tissues are, yeah, you could say this, they're this internal bubble organization. Like you're a bubble, like everything in your cell. Like have you ever blown, have you ever blown milk? Yeah. Right. And you see how the bubbles stick to each other. Right. That's kind of a little bit how we are on a biological sense. Is total body shrink wrap a good analogy in this case?

Total body shrink wrap. Oh, oh, oh. Well, yeah, but it's not just compressive. It's also pushing out, right? So there's the tensegrity model is, well, okay, I'm jumping way ahead. Let me just explain fascia on a simple level. Got it. Take a seat, bud. Take a seat. So I did a podcast-y Instagram live thing with Jen a couple months ago. And I described fascia as a strat or like a lasagna. So talking about the superficial fascia, that's the fatty layer. So your fatty layer is adipose cells surrounded by or held together by fibers. And the fibers are collagen, elastin, fibrillin. And those fibers are created by cells called fibroblasts. So fibroblasts are the cells of your fascia

that basically upkeep how the fibers of collagen should be behaving. You know, it's like little rats making a nest. That's what the fibroblasts are. And they're responding to the chemical environment, the nutritional environment of your body. They're responding to pressures. They're responding to the fluids.

They're responding also to the different levels of the pH balance. So after the superficial fascia, you have a zone of slide, right? If you grab, you pinch your stomach, you can actually move it to the right, to the left. You can move it up or down, but then it stops, right? I mean, it goes a certain degree because you have a layer of what's called, it could be called loose fascia or perifascial membrane or a fascial interface. See, this is, we have a nomenclature issue in the fascia world. So this is our zone of slide. And then underneath that is the deep fascia.

So the deep fascia looks like duct tape and it's surrounding your your muscles then you separate muscles there's more of that loose slidey fascia and we're built like this all over our body and so your deep fascia doesn't have the fat cells unless you've been injured and fat cells will will perforate and you'll draw in inappropriate fluids and you'll distort the the nervous system of the fascia also you start having pain yeah so there is that helpful did i give you that was very ever skinned a deer like gone to the butcher or even just like cut into a steak like you should at some level be able to see um components of fascia as connective tissue within the meat is that correct oh absolutely anytime you eat and beef beef is a great any red meat's a great example because you can really see

the white yeah it's a white shiny yeah yeah right or the so the silver skin right um but then if you have a a a bisection of the of the meat you can also see how the the fascicles the so the fascia is surrounding your fascia is surrounding every muscle cell you have every muscle cell surrounded by a little you know fascial envelope but then groups of muscle cells are surrounded by an additional uh layer of fascia called paramecium so you have endomesium then you have the bundles the paramecium then you have the epomesium then you have the deep fascia then of course you have loose fascia helping with all those layers i'm now so now i'm going from the smaller to the bigger then you have your deep fascia your then you have your loose fascial zone um and then you

have your superficial fascia on the surface so i have a question um regarding collagen and elastin to the best of my knowledge as you get older you tend to you tend to lose elastin and have more collagen build up over time elastin like in your faster sponge fibers you have more elastin less collagen slow twitch much fibers have more collagen less elastin and as you age you. Elastin, like in your faster sponge fibers, you have more elastin, less collagen. Slow-twist sponge fibers have more collagen, less elastin. And as you age, you lose elastin, which is kind of like the springy, less stiff of the two. And you get more collagen, which is a little more stiff and a little, I don't want to call it slower. It's a bad term, but it's like you lose the like the whippy athletic of the two. And then you get the like kind of the more stagnant stale of the two to like make it super super simple is that is that true how does that work so my understanding

is that you don't lose as much of the fascia as we think you're losing more of the muscle right so you have the the sarcomere wasting and you're left with the skeleton of the connective tissue but if the skeleton of the connective tissue isn't getting to kind of hold or surround the muscles, you lose some of the elasticity. I don't fully understand the sum total of your fascia doesn't change that much over your life cycle. But your elastin doesn't have, your collagen actually has more, has the rebound ability. Elastin is like, so collagen, collagen is the thing that really has the elastic spring-like thing. Elastin can stretch and stretch and stretch, but it doesn't give us a lot of rebound compared to the collagen.

So I don't know enough about any more. I think there's some debate about that because that's what I used to think also. But it turns out you're left with your fascial skeleton, but you have the sarcomere wasting. And you're not breaking down that what should happen, I mean, what you would think would happen is that you also would lose the equivalent amount of fascia, but it turns out you don't. But you're stiffer because you don't have as much fluid. Yeah.

From a practical standpoint, is there a way to modify your fascia in any particular way to have enhanced performance benefits or any health benefits? Like, why learn about fascia? Is there anything you can do to make it better or worse? Yeah. You have a lot of, your fascia provides some passive health for you. So if you're always using your muscles to be upright, your muscles are going to fatigue considerably. Let's look at, let's think about the Tex-Neck phenomenon, which is like a legitimate diagnosis now, isn't it? Right. So that forward head on neck position. And in my family, I'm also I feel like my family has a forward head on neck family. So I grew up with being around people with forward head on neck.

So it's like we're readers and we're always reading. And I'm always fighting against my own structure here. But you think about the the the forward head on neck. So if our heads are hanging over at all times, then our upper traps have to lengthen to accommodate that, and then they're going to contract to try to pull your head back, right? And then you start getting these bands of trigger points. You have this irritable stuff.

But actually, you have a lot get this nuchal ligament and you have some really robust connective tissue there and that connective tissue is there so that it can hold you up and you don't have to use your neck muscles but if your head is forward then your connective tissue and your muscles are gonna be working overtime to try to pull you up. But you have this automatic elevation device. You have this automatic brace, let's say, from the fascial tissues. You're inefficient if you're burning calories while you're just, while your head is on top of your rib cage. You shouldn't have to be burning calories to be able to look at the horizon for, you know, for dinner. But because we're looking here,

we're burning a lot of calories in our traps, right? Our heads are for it. But you think about also walking. I'm talking so much, Jen. You haven't, you're not a... No, this is... So one of the studies, oh, Dan Lieberman was there.

So he was presenting the study, the story of the human body. You guys familiar with Dr. Dan Lieberman? I'm not. Who's that? I think it was on the New York Times list. I think it was a bestseller. So he is a...

What was the book called again? The Story of the Human Body. Okay. So he is a... He's an anthropologist and he's a paleontologist and he goes into different cultures and he studies primal movement.

He studies people who are not living mismatched diseases, right? Where we walk on roads and we walk in shoes. So he's studying a lot of primal humans. And he did a study on plantar fascia and the IT band. And there was some really, he was talking about that, how the IT band really is a passive structure to, to help you in gait and to also help you with running. If you were wasting energy to run, to get your food, you would die before you got your food. So we're very efficient that way. And the only way you can be efficient is it's not that it's not your muscles

contracting to their max, their maximum every time you step or whenever you're running, but you have these passive structures, the amount of, of length and shortening within the connective tissue that can help you do that, or it can foster that for you. That makes sense. So go ahead. I was gonna say like, you just, you just mentioned plantar fascia. Like my, the old way that I used to think about that 10 or 15 years ago was like, you have fascia on the bottom of your foot and it's kind of siloed to the bottom of your foot. It's just the fascia on the bottom of your foot. But then you're talking about Thomas Myers and I want to say it's a superficial back

line where like you have, you have fascia that runs from the bottom of your foot, your plantar fascia, but it goes up your calf, up your hamstring, up through back, crosses over, goes up your neck over one side of your head and connects like on your eyebrow. Right. It's like, that's one piece of fascia. Right. And I had not thought about the body in that context before learning about that from him i'd always just silo like each body part is its own separate unit not a part of a greater system um well everything's connected so but the bottom line is you want to make your muscles strong

in all the ways like that was the conclusion of every single one of the plenary speakers was exercise. Like no matter what they were talking about regarding fascia or fluids, they were like, yeah, strength train. But, but also, you know, work on elegant movements and work on graceful movements and do slow movements, do fast movements, move in ways that just are novel and different.

Yeah. Is there a shape to the fascia? Like if it's going all the way from the bottom of her foot, wrapping around her head, is there like a spiral shape that's the strongest to help kind of with the elasticity and speed power, kind of these flowy movements that you're talking about? Absolutely. So collagen is a triple helix molecule. It's kinky.

It's coiled. And so Your excitement for talking about this right now makes me so happy. It's unbelievable. People are just listening to this. They don't see this dancing flowing thing you have going on

right now. It's so good. Okay. So, like, I like in private company, I will say, oh, you know, fascia, it's like pubic hair. You know, it's really curly. Or, you know, a spiral binding. The old spring analogy. Like, when you pull in a spring it should it should recoil it should return to form yeah um so that's the that's the organization of

collagen there you have it pubic hair and collagen beautiful dig it uh we're all family here no one's gonna hear that no one at all it's like a family road trip phil biller said i just got off a plane from berlin did I mention that? That's perfect. So he's jet lagged. What is some of the structural properties, though, that they're talking about? I mean, what are we allowed to say? Because remember you were saying

like, well, it's not... Is it glide or is it slide? Is it... Well, it's... So... Can we talk about hyaluronan? Totally. Yes. Go there. Can we talk about hyaluronan? Totally. Yes. Go there. Can we talk about it?

So when we're talking about the fascia right now, we're really talking kind of about the fibrousness of it. But it's the fluid reservoir of your body. It's like 80% of your fluids reside in your fascial tissues. Like when people say oh you're you know you're 78% water yeah well yeah you're all that water is bound up in your fascial tissues and you know and your blood but your blood is actually considered a connective tissue in and of itself so one of the the beautiful things about your fascia is it moves. And it moves in and amongst itself at these sliding zones.

And the thing that enables it to move are a few different types of fluid or chemistry of the fluid. But the big one is hyaluronan. So hyaluronan is highly viscous. You know, it's oily and it you have it in different concentrations around your body that now we know because carla stecco who is a orthopedic surgeon and a fascia researcher in padua italy like in one of the oldest universities on the planet. She did, she's got a beautiful book also called Atlas. I think it's called the Human Fascial Anatomy Atlas. I have it at home.

It's like the pages of, if you like to look at dissection, it's impeccable. It's a great book. But she came in with an amazing presentation that was about hyaluronan and where you find the majority of it in your body. So I'm going to ask you guys, where do you think you have the most slickity parts inside

your body? Interiorly, what are the slickest areas of your body? Right at the joints. Right. So you're going to find that in articular cartilage. Now, if we go to the fascia itself, where do you think which parts of your body are going to have the most hyaluronon in the, in the fascial sense? And I'll, I'll, I'll name some fascial sections for you to debate. She took over. I know.

She's a pro. Would it be, For being quizzed. I know. Would it be the rectus sheath, right? So the rectus sheath is a fascial aponeurosis, right? The rectus sheath is the intersection of all of your abs, right? And this sort of, if you look on it on the anatomy poster, it's white. Okay, so the rectus sheath, or is it the fascia lata,

which is the lateral thigh, or is it the retinacula? Retinacula are the fascial, basically, handcuffs and wrist cuffs that we have. Where do you think you're going to find the most hyaluronon? I'm going to go with the legs. With the fascia lata? Yeah, abs. I'll go with the wrists and the ankles.

You have to go with the hands now. God, I hope I'm right. God, I hope I'm right. It's for my. God, I hope I'm right. The ankle retinacula. She knew it. She knew it the whole time. Come on.

No, she didn't. That's why she's a doctor. But I knew she'd get it because you've seen her ankle mobility pieces on Instagram. Yep. Yeah, and Optimal Body. This woman, you're like a foot fetishist without being a foot fetishist. You know what I'm saying? People really like it, I've got to say.

Do they? People like looking at the toes and how they move. When you get your foot and ankle doing what it's supposed to do, the rest of your body biomechanically can have such a better opportunity to come online. I broke my big toe and it caused so many problems in my movement that like it just literally set off a tic-tac-toe board of problems from the day that I broke it. Not a domino board, a tic-tac-toe board? Well, it literally was like back, back, back, back, back. Like it just went from the big toe to the knee to the hip to the shoulder. And it just like everything across, like cross-sectionally, just the whole thing.

How did you recover it? He just walks around barefoot now. Yeah, I basically taped it together thinking, I'm a man. I can handle this. Not realizing how many problems. Yeah. Because it just hardened up and now I can barely like, it doesn't bend well. So now when I run, I don't have, like, the fluid thing.

So I end up running on this side and that ankle always gets weird. It's just something I have to monitor. I stretch my big toe all the time now when I, like, sit on my knees. But are you doing manual work on it? Yeah. It's odd. My wife is constantly, like, stop massaging your feet. It's not normal.

Don't do it in public. And I'm like, but it feels amazing. It's a really good thing to do. Like I show up to yoga class early and just like mash my feet out. Yeah. Well, you have the yoga tune-up balls now. There's a move I teach called toe on the go, which is a great big toe. I'll show it to you later.

But also you want to traction it and you want to pivot it and you want to try to really listen to the phalangeal joints there and the metatarsophalangeal joints, traction and approximation traction. So after I started to realize how many problems the big toe was, like when it didn't heal properly because I didn't do it right and I went to go see Dr. Teresa. She started doing all of that stuff. And I was like, oh, that joint's like all the other joints.

I want to kind of like use the same manipulations and stuff. And it started to get better and I could start to put the pieces. And now it's like complete. But I shouldn't say I will always. Learn how you speak to yourself. I feel like I very – if i go run i'm going to wake up with some heel problem and it's from like bad running form because that toe just doesn't flow well yeah it's um the big toe is a bit mucho mucho important yeah i had no idea

so why do you say that he's got to do manual work on top of the stretch? Because it will stimulate fascia sites to produce hyaluronan to help you with glide in there. Yeah. So fascia sites are the cells that produce hyaluronan. So that was one of the ways that she found which parts of the body had the most hyaluronan is she was looking for the cells that produce hyaluronan. So in your fascia, you have fibroblasts, which remodel the fibers, but you have these things called fasciocytes, which make sure that the chemical environment of the fluids are correct. And so the retinaculum

of your ankle is the one that has the most fasciocytes and it's got the most grease. And it has so many different ways that it moves. And think of all the forces that has the most fascia sites and it's got the most grease and has so many different ways that it moves and think of all the forces that are going from your body weight down through the ankle and then the ground reaction force going up through your foot it's pretty cool i was excited i'm so excited by that data like i just want to like just have a day just to celebrate my ankles how much of a problem is it that we spend so much time in shoes like i i walk around barefoot all the time even when we're in gross parking lots and it's disgusting.

Dan Lieberman would say you're doing the right thing. Yeah. You're reprimanding yourself. When I do it, like, I'll go on a walk, whatever it is, but I feel like my feet don't fit in shoes well anymore because the muscles, your feet grow. They get strong. And now I put shoes on and it just, I can tell that it's not right.

Yeah. Katie Bowman, she calls it a cast, right? Yeah. She walks barefoot. Katie's such a, man, she's so hardcore. What do her feet look like? She says walking barefoot on concrete is also a cast. That's true.

Yeah, because it's not. Where do I go? Yeah. What do you do? You're still only achieving a single position. Only walk on ground. Yeah, but you're not high everywhere else. But, yes, barefoot on concrete is better than shoes on concrete.

Yeah, if you have really strong feet. If you have weak feet, you could harm yourself. You could get a... Yeah, that's why nothing goes from zero to 100 either. Like all of a sudden people are going to start walking barefoot now. Oh, they told me to walk barefoot. The adaptability of our feet though is really crazy because when I...

Going through this whole process, like it was like a real learning thing. It was like, who knew my big toe would set off this thing that I had to go learn about. But the, not only is your foot getting a lot stronger, but the tissues change so quickly in your feet. To adapt to if you're walking on concrete. Like there's so many things that like I noticed when I had to take my shoes off to try to heal myself. And it was like the skin gets tougher, but it's also like. Temperature change.

Yeah. The way it perceives temperature change. What is that? It's, it's, you're reprimating yourself. I'm just making that word up. I'm a monkey. Yeah. I'm back.

I knew it felt so good yeah but we're so like doc you know lieberman he just is like we're so weird there's just a mismatch you know when we became homogenous like when we became homo um when we learned to stand up right to hunt uh we were more energy efficient than our prime the than the primates that we left behind because knuckle walking um is very energy expensive but then where where was it that we started wearing shoes like i don't know that part of the divergence of like where did that all happen and why the kind of shoes that i saw in the airport or just High heels are so strange to me. When I see people walking in, like, really high heels, like four inches,

and I'm like, what are you doing walking on stilts over there, you crazy human? What are you doing? It's so strange. That can't be healthy for people's feet. It's not. Yeah. Why do they do it? I don't know.

When did that start? Society, it looks good. It does look good, though. Cavs. Cav game. I mean? I don't know. When did that start? Society, it looks good. It does look good, though. Cavs, Cav game. I mean, I can't wear. I bought a very expensive pair of shoes for my wedding. My husband and I are both petite, so I don't wear heels. But I bought a pair of Prada flats for my wedding.

Yeah. So they're flat, right? There's zero drop Prada, but they taper the toes, right? So your toes end up forced into a capsule. And I get back pain. I never have back pain. Joe Miller does not have back pain. Let the world hear.

But when I wear those shoes, I start to get back pain. So I don't wear them a lot. My daughter wears them around the house. She wants them so badly because they're gold. Clearly the science is moving forward on this, but where do people go with it? How do they start to use this information? Like you can't see fascia, so it's weird, right? Like you can't see these lines that go through your body.

You can't see bones either. Yeah. You can't see blood unless you cut yourself. You don't hear people like, oh, I'm training bone tissue today. But they should be thinking about this stuff. So how do they start to implement? Well, you're different. That's why you're here and they're there.

That's why they're driving to work, listening to you. Because you're thinking about it. Yeah, jumping and bouncing is one of the best ways to help maintain your bones. Dr. Fit ran the workout today, and we jumped and bounced. We started with that. She was shaking it out. Sometimes when I do this, this is a daily thing in my life. No matter where I'm going, this is how I start working out,

just flicking all the tension out of my life. If you can't see that at home, just flick your hands as much as possible. So what he's doing is he's try and get loose but in your world Mr. Conor McGregor when he was training with Ido used to do the like monkey walk thing that's the same thing though you can do that

he got that from Ido and I got it from Conor, Ido and all the other smart people but I love that stuff just going into the ragdoll so what you're doing is you're using very little Connor, Ido, and all the other smart people. But I love that stuff. Yeah. Just going into the ragdoll. So what you're doing is you're using very little muscle action.

And you're letting the passive structures just have their way. I call this Grover arms. Like you don't know where the arm's going to go next. And you just use as little force as possible to do it. And it's fun. And all of a sudden you feel a different nerve sensation. You feel the warmth and you feel fluids in a way that you didn't before. Because if you're just sort of doing exercises that are sort of like inflating you like a hydraulic pump, like you're just bulging.

That's an important sense too. But you just want to have that. You want to do that if you want to do all the things if i am filled with stress and tension in my life how do i know that i have a fascial issue going on because it's all connected you can't not like there's i i can we went to a conference where you're looking at fascia and they're all they're talking about is fascia but it's it's it's the i guess if guess if you're Joe Schmo on the street, how do you make the brain-body connection to what this feels like

and what it is doing for you? Like when you're stretching or when you're walking, how do people physically connect to the ideas that we're talking about? It's like why are they connecting to their muscles? Like what's the bias of why, why are they, but why, but why,

but why is that? I'm not, look, I'm not like fascist. Like I'm, I'm everything is everything. Yeah. And what I really like to talk about is the diaphragm and breathing and,

you know, the vagus nerve. I just, like, if you can get me talking about that i'll talk about that all day but the the thing is is it's such new frontiers in science yeah even though it was described in gray's anatomy and it's been looked at by anatomists for for centuries um technology is changing and enabling us to see things differently.

And when we start to see things differently, we have to reevaluate what we knew before. And that takes getting reeducated. And that takes time. And it's work. It's work to get reeducated. My first model was chi. Like, I studied shiatsu when I was in college.

I started, I mean, there wasn't shiatsu when I was in college I started which I mean there wasn't shiatsu in college I just was bored I went to an open house at a shiatsu school and then I did start doing work-study while I was full-time in college and I started to learn the Chinese medical model or that was actually a Japanese medical model so the shiatsu was a Japanese form but they talked about meridians, right? Wait, where was I going? Uh-oh, the jet lag just hit.

Oh, no. Oh, shoot. But I had to reevaluate. So that model made me reevaluate everything I thought I knew about the body. Yeah. Right? Thomas Myers Anatomy Trains has made SNC and Pilates and maybe yoga if they're trying to, you know, that's a whole other story. What's the yoga world doing now? But

is they have to relook at their model and that's good. But it takes a lot of time to re-understand. The physical therapy world. I mean, you guys, you guys study fascial tissues in physical therapy school. Seriously, very minimal. And it's like it is not discussed like anything that you even talk about. And everything that I've done with clients, like a lot of how I actually help clients, how I actually treat, how I actually use manual tissue is nothing what I learned in school. I learned red flags. I learned how not to kill someone.

I learned diagnosis. I learned what to look for. Academics is always last. Yes. I learned where to refer back to an MD or how to look for referred pain from different, whether it be an organ or some internal reason that I'm not going to address. Or maybe scars. Because scars is a big topic.

And that's totally a fascial issue and a vascular issue and a nerve issue that's i mean it's everything any sort of a fascial issue yes it's all those things yes regarding athletics i feel i feel like i hear fascia discussed the most with with sports that are very explosive like regarding plyometrics and throwing a baseball things like that like stretch like i want it yeah pre-stretched like there's certainly a stretch shortening cycle muscle spindles and all that stuff that are tied into this but but as far as fascia goes like i think it's mark first agan talks about snap like if i if i put my hand flat on the table here and i pick up just my middle finger and i make it stretch it'll snap down really really fast like you get that stretch reflex that's not specifically muscle spindles

that are being stretched and then contracting extra hard and so for baseball players and people that have, like, they're trying to do something as fast as possible, throw a baseball 100 miles an hour, you're a football player and trying to sprint as fast as possible, like doing plyometrics I feel like is taking advantage of fascia. I don't know if you are training your fascia specifically, but that's a way to take advantage of it and use it in its most useful form, I'll say.

I mean, you can't not be training it. You're always like whatever you do, like sitting on your ass all day is training your fascia to do what? To be overstretched. Right. That's training your fascia. So like you aren't always influencing your fascia. Your fascia is always influencing you, even if you choose to think it's important or not. How long does it take for the fascia to like regenerate

um so six months is is six months to two years depending on where it is in your body cool six months to two years yeah like for a scar to totally like so i had my surgery a year ago and you know the wound wound healing is two weeks and then you're allowed to to start to we're supposed to activate right away but the full remodeling of the scar is about two years i mean the full like set yeah of the scar is about two years where so okay so where is the like in the depth of the fascia you mentioned it's like in this lasagna form is it the deeper you go the longer it takes is it like uh it just depends on how catastrophic the yeah what happens when you so you've got this thing going from the bottom of your foot all the way wrapping around in this whole system. What happens when you have some sort of trauma to this system?

Like where does it go? If these lines and all of a sudden we tear them and we've got some scar there, what does that do to the system? Something else picks up the slack. So that's our compensation behavior. Right, Jen? Which is why we look at the whole system as a whole which is why then we go back to well if you have a shoulder injury where is it really coming from i mean same thing you were just talking about your big toe was hurt and then it went up to your knee and your ankle and your shoulder yeah um we're gonna take go ahead i was gonna say one of the one of the guys who presented was a physical therapist, Paul Hodges.

Are you familiar with him? And he was talking about pain and fascia. And he was talking about inflammation and fascia and the biopsychosocial model. He was a huge crowd pleaser because he was bringing it down to, like, the cytokines and the fascia's behavior with that and the nerve endings in the fascia. It's like there's so much to look at here. I just heard of the biopsychosocial

model last night and now I've heard of it twice in two days. That was your first time? Well, I guess, yeah. Where have you been? I hang out in coffee shops. I knew all about it before that last night. They don't talk about it in San Diego? That was my first time hearing about it last night, too.

Thank you. Brett Contreras hooked us up. Brett Contreras is talking about it outside of our world. We went through like a whole hour plus of him just going into this model. Oh, good. Can you? Jen can. I'm going to hand it to Jen.

Oh, hand it to me. Let's go. I don't know about that. Show number two. Can you? Jen can. I'll hand it to Jen. Oh, hand it to me. Let's go. I don't know about that. Show number two today for you. No. I'd like to hear you explain it. Oh, that's so mean.

I know. It is so mean. Well, it's me. So pain is an output. When we feel pain, the thing that we're feeling, owie, may not actually be where the pain generation is pain can change depending on the environment that you're in so in terms of

the amount of stress that you're experiencing in your life or the people in your environment, your social your social environment stressors can make you have, feel more pain or less pain. So that's the psycho and social. I'm kind of combining those two, but there's a, but there, there could be a actual tissue injury or tissue damage. Sometimes you don't feel the pain from that tissue injury

or tissue damage because nociception is not necessary. Nociception is pain detection by your brain, but doesn't necessarily mean that you actually feel hurt. So the classic thing is that they can do images of spines and see people who have degenerations and disc bulges. But those aren't people that were having pain. So pain is processed in lots of different centers in your brain. Some of the ways we process pain affects our emotional centers or it affects our other autonomics. It affects our salivary glands or it affects our heart rate or affects our breathing. It affects our emotional triggers, things that set us off or make us unhappy. So can I hand it over to you now?

Do you want to springboard off of that? I mean, I feel like this was a lot of stuff that we were at a very basic level talking about on the podcast earlier. We don't know when yours is going to air next to Jim Miller's, but go find Dr. Infit's podcast about the same thing. No, go ahead. I mean, it just goes into a lot of the, like the psychosocial aspect of pain is what we talked about. Where's a lot of the research in pain coming from right now that's not fair i'm not a pain specialist no i know but no you don't have to be i mean this is if you listen to them like yeah i so working with teresa she works with all these adaptive people

and when i started learning about phantom limb syndrome i was mind blown and i was like whoa if i go down that rabbit hole like that's like another three years of life plus whatever they're learning at like that's like such a deep thing that you don't even have if you lose your hand you can literally look and be like my hand hurts really bad you don't have one your hand can't hurt like that phantom limb syndrome thing is mind-boggling to me and how people feel excruciating pain on a limb or a body part that doesn't even exist so are there other areas like that to me is got to be like level 10 of where we should be learning about pain but where are there other areas that they're kind of digging into on um i'm really i mean, I'm really intrigued with like visceral pain and interoception.

So interoception is the, your body's physiological sense of itself and the disrupt, this disruption of interoception or the exaggeration of interoception and how that relates to pain processing. So I just totally, how that relates to pain processing. So, um, I just totally, I mean, I just don't think that you can like separate them. I just like,

it's like everything that you were saying about, you know, the human body and it's all connected. It's the same thing with our minor emotions or social. It's like, it's hard to separate and it really is going to take digging for a specific person to really determine where that pain is coming from. And, um, a really good resource that people can easily look up because who doesn't watch Netflix?

One of the documentaries. Guilty. Ask the Doctors is one of the new. And there's an episode on pain. And they go into how this is like it can very much come from this model. That's a single documentary or that's a series? It's a series. And one of the episodes is on pain.

Yeah. So it kind of dives into this and it talks to some pain experts so that you can start to really understand. There are free nerve endings that terminate in your fascial tissues and there are also nociceptive nerve endings that terminate in your fascial tissues. And both of those can become sort of wide-ranging pain, sort of pain-sensing or feed pain information to your brain. But to sort of kind of take a turn to talk about why also people might want to know about fascia is because your proprioceptive nerve endings, that's where they're located is in fascial tissues all over your body.

Your mechanoreceptors in your joints, there's specific nerve endings that terminate in the fascial tissues along your spinal joints. They're called Pacini endings. There's Ruffini endings that are in the sliding zones. So why would we, why would we want to respect fascia? It's because it's a storehouse for our nervous system, you know, not just a pathway for our nerves to go through, but also nerve endings living in the fascia and, and deriving, deriving information from mobile, from mobility. That's, that's either happening or not happening in the connective tissues people may not even know what proprioception is like okay in your mind what is it i tend to think about is

just you understanding where you are in space yeah the body's positional sense of itself in stillness or in motion yeah and then there's uh then there's another subtler layer called interoception which i mentioned a moment which is your physiological sense of self so there's another subtler layer called interoception, which I mentioned a moment ago, which is your physiological sense of self. So there's a positional sense, which has to do with your muscles and bones and knowing where you are in space. And then there's like, oh, I feel my breath or I feel my pulse or I feel a sex drive or I feel hunger. Those are interoceptively driven things. And these are also nerve endings that terminate in fascia. Sorry.

No, you are. We're just getting started, I feel like. We're going to take a quick break because I want to talk about your surgery. Oh, sure. We're going to talk about the hip. That's the biopsychosocial model right there. There we go. Shrug family, hope you're enjoying the show.

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We'll see you in your inbox. Back to the show. But we got to talk about sex and fascia. Oh, even better. Is that planned? Yeah. We went male pelvic floor with Jen earlier. Now we're going fascia and sex. Well, it's not quite as exciting as that. It's actually hormone receptors in fascia.

So I think the ladies are going to probably connect to this, but you have estrogen receptors in your fascia, and you get looser right before, during ovulation. So your whole body gets, it's almost like being pregnant, but just for a very short period of time. And then during pregnancy, of course, you have an abundance of these estrogen receptors in your fascia that are extremely happy to be, you know, contacted. So Carla Steko found this also.

So we have. So there's certain times of the month that you should be having sex? No, I don't think this. Well, yeah. Doesn't it make sense, though, that you would have more flexibility when you are your most fertile. Yeah. Right. Because you can.

Be acrobatic. Your pelvis can be a little bit more receptive, right? Your internal membranes can be more receptive to the stretch things that are stretching you. The thing, thing that's stretching you. Yeah. So that was interesting. And after, and in, and in menopause, you actually lose those receptors in your fascia.

Interesting. Yeah. So that was cool. Nobody had looked at that before. Can you explain that to me a little more? So the fibroblast. Instead of just going over because we don't want to talk about the words, can we like. Yeah.

I just had a child. I need to know everything. Yeah. What happened? Basically. What happened? Basically. Twelve months ago, I was free. Your connective tissue is looser when you're ovulating.

Yeah. And then all women who've had children know that you get really loose throughout pregnancy, right? You get looser and looser because relaxin starts to dominate, but it's not just relaxin that's loosening you up. It's also these estrogen receptors on the, on the fibroblasts. And it's changing the, so the fibroblasts remodel the collagen during that time. So they start adding more of the really stretchy collagen, which is collagen 3. Now we're getting molecular. And, yeah, okay.

But the fibroblasts are... But if you know when you're ovulating, it's a better time of the month then to be able to play. Yeah, I don't know that it's like i don't know that yeah i think a p test is probably better than like oh i feel slightly more flexible today but i mean i mean that goes along with everyone who does study hormones and everything to know like there are better times totally not yeah sorry. We're very complicated over here. Was it different for you when you actually impregnated Marcy all three times? Great question.

Was it better for me? No, not better, but different Did you notice a difference Than like normal Tuesday afternoon Sex and Oh shit, we just Bing, baby But some people prefer more friction and others prefer less friction It's just very different

What's going on during the pregnancy? Because I could talk about that too She didn't talk about That Things happen that nine months as well that gets wild you need to talk about some stuff there's a lot of things that happen in that nine months that deserve to be uncovered i just don't know if like there's just too many there's so many hormones and so many things and so much a lot of of, you know, she wasn't studying relaxin,

but I'm sure she would have had, she would have seen that, you know, there's tons of, I, I'm just speculating, but I'm sure there are, there are receptors on your fibroblasts. I would speculate, I would hypothesize that you would have, um, relaxin receptors on your fibroblasts, which would help to, which would be remodeling the collagen and elastin ratios during that time. For people that, for people that they want, they, they're relatively stiff and they want to get more flexible, more mobile is regarding relaxin, which I know very little about, except for when it's referenced around, around pregnancy and giving birth. Is there any, has there been any research or any attempted supplements or anything like that for intentionally getting someone into a state where they can be more mobile?

Good question. Where they can get more out of their mobility training? I never, I don't study ingestive stuff. I just study, you know, mobilization, massage. I feel like that could go poorly as well because, yes, as well as like your collagen, but also like your ligaments and everything start to become problematic for most women, which is, you know, causing a lot of pain and issues. Or you take it too far, you end up being unstable. Yeah, exactly. You're just going to fall apart. I think there's probably many other tools which

you have yeah yeah to increase mobility yeah yeah i don't i i don't like magic pills i'm not a magic pill person is there something to uh taking collagen protein to make anything stronger better i don't know i know lots of people are taking it, and they feel it's working for them. So I don't have any ingestive opinions. I really don't. I stay away from that. I'll throw that to Jen. I mean, I'm not a dietician, not a nutritionist.

I can't really speak on that either. But what I can say, I'll play devil's advocate with that one because I have heard from, I heard it from a nurse practitioner. I heard it from a doctor who only does research. And I heard it from another dietician guy. And they all said collagen doesn't produce collagen. So it's like the same thing as like we were taking vitamin C, thinking that it was just going to like improve our calcium and all it did was give us calcium deposits.

So he was saying it actually is like if we're taking too much collagen, it's not being processed in the body the way that we think we are and it's actually messing up the liver. Oh, Jesus. Hold on. Don't mess with my liver, please. The reality is we just don't have enough research. 50% of the audience is freaking out right now.. Oh, Jesus. Hold on. Don't mess with my liver, please. The reality is we just don't have enough research. 50% of the audience is freaking out right now.

I know, exactly. Seven car wrecks. The thing is we don't have enough research on collagen yet. People are calling their wives. Don't take it. Don't take it. I would say, honestly, to be on the safe side, one scoop a day. I hear people are like, it's in my oatmeal.

It's in my protein shake. It's in my coffee. It's like four to five times a day. Don't snort the collagen. Yeah, come on. Let's ease up on it a bit. I would say just be nice to your fibroblasts. Make sure that you do, you know, I'm obviously a tool person.

Use the role model balls. Massage yourself. Train in a way that you get a good adaptation response. You know, get your fluids, make sure you've got drink, drink before, drink during, drink after so that you're getting fluids to, to just flow all over your body and to stimulate the fibroblast, the lymph. Water's a big piece of this, right? Like just staying hydrated, not letting your tissues just go to crap and yeah just drink the water probably does enough to kind of clear some things out and drink the water

sliding gliding to happen yeah but also touch i mean movement yeah because the the movement just stimulates the fibroblasts yeah and then they you know they go around and they clean up the junk. When you get a massage, what's happening at a fascial level? Is it breaking up? I feel like massage therapists, out of all the populations I've ever dealt with, talk about fascia the most. Well, you're probably moving fluids around. Yeah. You're moving fluids.

You're talking to the cells. Talking to the nervous system. Temporarily stretching the collagen and elastin. The long word. Reticulin. The other one. No. Reticulin. Yeah. And you're also influencing the ability for your muscles to function better.

So if I'm just, if I have, okay, so your, your, your fascial tissues and your muscle tissues, like all of your tissues, they have, they excrete, they poop, they pee in, in your own body and you have to be able to, um, get the poo and pee out. So if I have, I remember this analogy. Did I use it on your thing? Do you know who used it with me yesterday, though? I was having dinner with Tom Myers last night. 74 name drops. I counted. Just casually having dinner with Tom Myers.

I've been doing this poo-pee analogy for a really long time. And Tom, he started talking about cell pee. And I was like, oh, my God, Tom Myers is talking about cell pee. I must be on to something with my metaphor metaphor, but no, it's true. Especially cause Tom Myers told me it didn't mean last night. Um, so if, if you're, if you have poor circulation or if you don't move a lot, or if you have adhesions, you have internal scar tissue, or you just have, um, dehydration on the inside or whatever you've got that area doesn't move well the cells that are pooing or peeing is are going to irritate that

whole area and so I've got to get that to move around and massage is really wonderful for stirring the soup to get the poo and the pee into the the so that it gets flushed out, right? So that it goes into, in through your lymph system and then finally process through your blood out. If you have a trigger point, do you know how dry needling, like from like a mechanistic level, how that works? So Sue Falzon would be a much better person to explain that. Aline Langevin, she's, she was not at the Sebastian Research Congress. She's been at, I think, all the other ones. She is like, that's her thing.

But what they found is that when they insert the needle, that collagen will wrap around the needle. It'll like grab the needle. And then the needle also spins so you that but i don't i don't remember what the pain relief mechanism is within that i just remember this this thing about the college and grabbing onto the needle itself do you they as physical therapists i don't know if it's changed yet but as far as i know we're not allowed to do dry needling in california not in california but you might you might i should take a dry needling, but we didn't even go over. I mean, I went to school in California and everything.

We didn't even go over it. Sue can explain it. You guys got a podcast with Sue Falzone. She's amazing. Oh, she's so cool. She had this sweater. I thought she was like, she had this sweater with like this, like, that she had just gotten in Norway. Saw her when I landed. And I told her, I said, you look like Bjork. It was just like, it was so European. It was very cool. Let's talk about your surgery.

Okay. Oh, speaking of scars. Yeah. Good hip. Yeah. Pooing and peeing cells. Yeah. Cytokines. Irritated tissue.

Yeah. All of it. Yeah. When was it. Yeah. When was the surgery? I'll tell the short version. Why? Because I want to go home and see my kids. I just got off a plane.

So I didn't know I had advanced stage osteoarthritis. I had no idea that I was living with a disease that I thought I might have torn a little bit of labrum just because I knew the test for labral tear. And so I had, you know, very uncomfortable pinching if I was flexed and adducted, meaning if I would bring my knee to my chest and then move the thigh across, I'd have a kind of a little bit of a wimp. But I had infrequent spasms in my tensor fascia lata. That's a muscle on the lateral anterior thigh. On and off for about seven years. So I thought I could get rid of the pain in the TFL. Like I could do exercises that would get rid of the spasm.

But over the course of seven years, if it keeps coming back, there's probably something wrong in there. I didn't want to have imaging, though, because I was in my childbearing years. It was my fertile years. And I just wanted to have as many kids as I could in the time that I had. Because I am an older professional. I'm older than everybody here looking around. An older professional.

I'm an older professional. Compared to who? Compared to, you know. The four people around you. Go ahead. Compared to the four people around me? I'm, like, mature. A legend. Go ahead. I'm like mature. A legend.

That's right. Yeah, so about a year ago, August. So we're in November now. A year ago, August, I had imaging finally. And it was like bone on bone, osteophytes everywhere, Chondromalacia.ia i mean like just the works and so there was there was there's no there's no other conservative thing that could have been done like there was no injections at that point there's no um there's just nothing it was hip

replacement that's it and so um i was like oh he he walked in my surgeon doctor said he walked in his first words to me so when do you want to schedule like those were his first five words to me so when do you want to schedule seven words to me um and then we had a conversation after that but um i he was like oh i have an opening in two weeks that's how yeah this has to happen now yeah but i was like well oh, I have an opening in two weeks. That's how. Yeah, this has to happen now. Yeah, but I was like, well, no, I've got to do a photo shoot for my book, and I've got to go to teach in Germany, and I have this conference and this thing. So I just worked my ass off for that two and a half months, and then November 1st I had it taken out, and I got a great surgeon.

He did a great procedure. He's innovated. It's a very small scar. I walked out of the clinic six hours after I went in. It was outpatient. I mean, I walked out with a walker, but that was the last time I used the walker. When I got out of the car at my house, I used the cane or, you know, a crutch. And within three days, no more cane. Just, yeah. Yeah. Wow. Pretty amazing. Do you have any limitations? So this is a, I mean, surgeries have changed so much in the last few years.

So now the device I have is like dual mobility and there's no contraindication, no precautions for movement. So it's different. I mean, I have students that will come into my class and they'll have, you know, a different type of surgery from 10 years ago or 15 years ago, and they still can't cross the midline. Whereas the new surgeries now they can. So it's amazing. Thinking of what we were talking about earlier and understanding pain. Yeah.

But I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. That was like the frozen. How much pain are you in right now? One to ten? Six. I'm not in pain. I'm just cold.

The hardest part of healing, Anders, wasn't the tissue and it wasn't any of that the hardest part was in terms of the physical therapy is relearning to walk recognizing that i walked that i i had yoga and danced my way out of walking correctly i'm still learning how to walk walking should be something automatic walking should be something that's therapeutic for every human organism and the fact that my training took walking away from me and that i had still trying to figure out you know it's it's not easy to relearn to walk as a conscious person when you're learning to walk as a kid it's a completely automatic process so that's been very humbling and it's taken me into more of a psychological place like the physical stuff has been fun and interesting the psychological stuff has been the

hardest of the healing process for sure yeah what how do you I guess like what is that walk me through the psychology of the psychology side shit so it's just surgery trauma yeah surgery is trauma when you think about goddess I mean like getting bones. I mean, have you ever been put to sleep before? Oh God. Yeah. So I had some very serious surgical trauma. That freaks me out. Like I've seen people that get knocked out and they're just like dead on the gurney.

And I'm like, Whoa, that's what it looks like. Yeah. It freaks me out. Just thinking you would just put this little thing over your face and dunk. But I think like what's been interesting about it for me so i had a i had a very unfortunate late-term miscarriage in my first pregnancy so i lost a baby at 20 weeks and when you lose a baby at 20 weeks they have to put you under twice whoa you have to have two surgeries. And I think what happened is even though I was really happy about the hip replacement is it kicked off a PTSD experience. And I'm still I mean, I don't know when it will end, like the process of unraveling. What happens is then it just catapults you back into really early childhood stuff. So that's been, for me, the hardest part.

So the going to sleep part has been, or the surgery part has triggered old things. It's triggered a massive change. Which is significantly more difficult than any of the physical pieces that you've gone through. Physical stuff is easy it's probably interesting to you yeah but dealing with all the emotional mental traumas yeah it's so much harder but i've learned a lot and like even just i even feel like meeting jen for me has been a part of it has been a part of that process because I've had to relearn so much and be willing to really be a student like and humble myself to try all the things that I wouldn't do before. My body was telling me like I would have never done plyometrics. I avoided plyometrics at all costs because I knew it could trigger my TFL, you know.

And I've just had so many amazing experiences in this past year. And it's been very growthful. What's the process of learning how to walk again? Like even from the physical side because that's a really – like connecting your brain to – because your brain kind of shuts that area off when it has that trauma. You have to force the pathway again to turn that into like a default pattern that you're able to do. Well, one has been studying the foot. Yeah. I'll give you a good one.

Back to your toe. Yeah. Which I was already into the foot. I met a guy. I've been intrigued by Gary Ward who who wrote what the foot yeah one of his teachers is a teacher what a teacher of ours her name is dr. Dom McCrory and I had had her present a few years ago in my hips immersion on some of his work so I got I tasted it a few years ago thought of his genius and then I met him in Australia

we were both presenting at file Xlex in April. And, you know, the presenters were kind of like, we're all at the same hotel. So, like, we're having breakfast, lunch, and dinner together. And I was getting to know him and had a chance to attend a couple of his sessions when I was down there. And then got his book. And we've been chatting, like, you know, over the last five months or eight months.

But that's been really helpful is his work, like making sure that I do some of his, I don't know what they're called, just some of his mobile mobilizations. Yeah. I mean, he's kind of, what I like about it is like, he doesn't look at the foot. He looks at it in the fluid motion too. And it's like, you know, we can be in, we're never in like full pronation. We're never in full supination. We kind of lie somewhere on the spectrum or normally not in like the middle at the perfect balance, unless we're a baby learning to walk again. And so learning how to adapt your body into pushing more into pronation and more into supination and getting it to feel

both sides of that so that your neurological system can kind of start to addressination and getting it to feel both sides of that so that your neurological system can kind of start to address itself and start to say, Oh, this is where midpoint is. Yeah. We're center. He calls it center. Yeah. Finding center. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to, I'm going to, uh, go up and spend three days with him when he's in Santa Cruz in March. Um, and then the other thing has been my, my own physical physical therapist so my physical therapist she's awesome she's a total like like i feel like she's like a white witch she's she's got magical powers and i just i found the right pt like that's key so key uh and she studied a lot with the institute of physical arts have you heard of them? Which I had never heard of because they only teach to PTs.

They're very, they're an enclave and like they only teach to PTs. And a lot of what they do is, is re-stimulate walking. And so combining his work with, because she doesn't know his work, it doesn't matter. I'm the integrator because you're the organism that has to self-heal. So you've got to take in all the inputs. So them, and then the third element that has been profound is PRI. So I started, I've been intrigued by them. What's that? That's actually like what I was about to ask about. Oh, my God.

I can't even, I'm just like, I could talk about FASTA all day. I could talk about PRI all day. So Pastoral Restoration Institute, so they have a model of, by Dr. Ron Hruska around the asymmetry of the respiratory diaphragm and what the asymmetries cause in the human body. And you either fit the model or you don't. And I went to a seminar of theirs.

We're down here in Redondo Beach. Eight weeks after my surgery, I went to a two-day, all-day seminar, and every single thing we did helped my hip. And I realized I had a big missing piece. Here I am teaching, you know, breath work for the past 20-something years, but I had been missing this one, this thing. I already knew that the diaphragm was asymmetrical, but there were, it was just so clear after taking that course. And I'm not going to, that's like, even just sharing all that is, you know, PRI people are like, look,

it's too complicated to explain in a podcast. It really is. It really is. And then other people think it's like hocus pocus. It's just like learning how to utilize it in the, I think to its maximum value. Yeah. And if it's, and if the stimulation, like if the stimulation, if you get a positive adaptation response, then you're going to be into it. Exactly. You know what I'm saying?

And I use it so much for all my, all my clients almost because they can automatically feel that response right away. Yeah. And again, like we were, I mean, we talked about this a little bit. What course did you take? Which one did you take? So I still get to take courses. So I've learned a lot from my friends who are like deep, deep, deep, deep in it.

Do you want to do Myokin with me? Let's do it. Okay. So I'm going to do it online. I've been saying I'm going to do it online for like the past. Should we take the microphone off and leave? Let's do it. What's the big picture concept behind their philosophy?

So I've taken two of their courses so far. So big picture concept is this, that you have the right diaphragm is higher. It's thicker. The left diaphragm is lower. It's flatter. Excuse me, is flatter and it's thinner. So they affect different poles. And so that asymmetry is actually changing the behavior of the ribs and spine and the spine and the pelvis and everything down below. So there's an entire, there's, there's chains in the body that they have

illuminated based on this asymmetry. Now, back to the fashion congress. So in one of my sessions, I sat next to some guy with a name. I'd never even seen those letters together. So I was like, where's he from? You know, it was like, what's he made it up? Yeah. Z-F. What is that?

Yeah, you don't know. I'm sorry. I can't actually tell you. Don't Google it. Yeah. Yeah, don I'm sorry. I can't actually tell you. Don't Google it. Yeah. Yeah, don't Google it. You can't find it anywhere. But I've got balls, so I was just like, oh, what's your name?

And he was like, blah, blah, blah. It was like I just never had heard. It was just so. Anyway, he. I said, well, what brings you here? He said, well, I'm a respiratory therapist. I live in Cyprus, but I used to live. and he named all these different universities in the U.S. that he worked at. He is a, not only is he a respiratory therapist, but he specializes, he's an anatomist.

He's anatomy, he's finishing his postdoc in anatomy, specifically respiratory anatomy. So I was like, I have a question for you. And he doesn't speak good English, though. And I started saying, now, you know the diaphragm, the different hemispheres are asymmetrical, right? And he was like, say slow it again. And then I said, can I have your email? And I will email you my question because I have so many questions. Because here is actually like a respiratory anatomist.

Yeah. First he was a respiratory therapist and now he's a, you know, going to be an anatomy professor and he's in Cyprus. So anyway, he's going to be my new best friend. Cause I'm going to ask him all the nerd questions. Get ready for the longest email ever.

Well, but he can Google, he can put in Google translate and then we can have a conversation. Cause we couldn't, we couldn't talk to each other. I don't know how he was even, maybe he was just like looking at the slides and being like, like, I don't know how he was even, maybe he was just looking at the slides and being like, hmm, I don't know how he was doing,

how he was understanding. But actually they had, in some audit, you know, this is too boring. I'm loving it. That dude walked away from that conversation and went over to his other buddies from Cyprus and was like that. I have no idea what she just asked me.

She was really excited though. She was very excited. Her arms were going everywhere. I'm happy that she's happy, but I have no idea what she said. me. She was really excited, though. She was very excited. Her arms were going everywhere. I'm happy that she's happy, but I have no idea what she said. As soon as the arms went crazy, I just played the I don't speak English card and walked away. Yeah. But we know we have a common interest, which is fascia. And so my next book is about the interfaces of the diaphragm and its impact on core tension

and on emotion and on resilience. So it's like, that's why it's taking me so long. How far along on that book are you? You know, I could be closer to done. Yeah, no. It's going to be a while. That's what I like to say about all my projects. I know.

I would be done if I was finished. I have a lot of chapters written but i've got to get all my citations in there i've got to do rewrites i've i've got to organize the photos it's oh it's a lot of work it's very time consuming i mean i don't want it to be the size of the role model and right now that's where it's heading. And I need to figure out how to just like take the ax and go. Yeah. There's so much information in the role model.

That book is fucking packed. And what I think is like, I mean, what we were talking about before the podcast is really how you've been able to study what you actually have created

and create studies out of it that actually proves it's well luckily i'm not the one creating a study so which is even more amazing i know it's it's people who so uh yeah we actually have data now uh dr robin capo bianco who is a neurophysiology just got got her PhD in neurophysiology. And her husband is Stephen Campobianco, who is the performance director of Rock Tape, or director of education at Rock Tape. And I've known them for years.

There's a picture of him in my book, because he did some ultrasound thing before rolling and after rolling. And he sent me this dynamic ultrasound. I was like, can I use that in my book? He goes i met him at the faster easter congress in 2012 but i actually met him a couple years prior to that at a yoga studio um but what did he show was was uh improving offloading so you know more movement so that what the one of the things that rolling does is it fluffs your tissue. So it allows for the motion between layers to be there. So you're not moving like a robot. You have differential movement, which is elegant and grace.

She's been taking notes the entire time. Have you seen her? Her eyes are like this. Every time you say something it's like i'm gonna write that one down um it's a good day to get flown out for your first shrug trip congratulations oh my god it's awesome i was loving the audience has no idea who's actually standing with us while we do this that's samantha she runs all of our social media she's a badass and we flew her in to come hang out with us this weekend.

Sam's killing it. Oh, cool. And we picked her up at 6 a.m. this morning. And she's a student at Northern Arizona. Oh, that's a time change. Not bad. That's not bad. Okay.

Yeah. Well, they don't have time change. It's really not bad. Yeah, exactly. It's really not bad. It's not fair. Is it a time change now? Oh, there you go.

So, yeah, this is her first drug trip. Hanging out at Deuce all day. And you're not cold. Oh, my God. I know. I'm freezing. So Robin did a study. I'll tell you the study.

It got published in the European Journal of Sports Medicine, which is amazing. And she studied the Yokoatuna balls and the calf. And so her study was she was trying to look at what's the mechanism? Which of course we still don't know. But she got some other really cool findings that are worth talking about. So she had somebody do a calf stretch. 30 seconds, static calf stretch, 30 seconds again, 30 seconds again. Oh, first they measured people. First they measured the angle of their dorsiflexion and they measured torque, right, so the strength,

the force output of the calf. So the control person, 30 seconds stretch, 30 seconds stretch. The other group, 30 seconds stretch, 30 seconds of TENS unit. 30 seconds stretch, 30 seconds TENS unit. 30 seconds stretch, 30 seconds TENS unit. The third group, 30 seconds stretch, 30 seconds rolling on the gas dock, on the medial part. 30 seconds stretch, 30 seconds rolling on the posterior part. 30 seconds stretch, lateral part.

A TENS unit is kind of like a power dot for people that don't know. Explain what a TENS unit does. I actually don't know specifically what a TENS unit does. Like mechanistically, what's happening there? It gives you a little electric pulse and you get a muscle contraction kind of externally or artificially from it.

But as far as like what it's doing to the muscle in any more detail than that physiologically, I couldn't go more deep than that. That's perfect. Thank you for saying that. You're welcome. Okay, so it's activating it and it basically, it makes it compliant to the muscle in any more detail than that physiologically. I couldn't go more deep than that. That's perfect. Thank you for saying that. Okay. So it's activating it, and it basically makes it compliant

because it sort of overactivates it, and the muscle is like, it relaxes. Okay. So what they found was that, of course, all of them increased range of motion. Stretch increased range of motion. Stretch with TENS increased range of motion. Stretch with the Octanopods increased range of motion stretch with tens increased range of motion stretch with the yoga tuna balls increased range of motion um the uh i think the tens and the yoga tuna balls had the greatest

increase in range of motion stretch but it wasn't like you know not don't write home to mom about it the stretch people they all had a forced deficit with their calf contraction, which is what happens after static stretching is you lose your ability to fully contract the muscle. The tens unit people, they also lost, they didn't have a significant increase in torque. The people that roll with the yoga tuna balls overcame the forced deficit and they had better torque than any of the other groups. It's amazing. So, which means that to warm up, static stretching can be really dangerous. But the therapy balls were able to somehow play on the sensory system in such a way,

they don't, this is what we don't know know in such a way that it increased the motor output for the muscle. So we take this to mean that some people would say, oh, you shouldn't roll before. You should only roll after. But that's not true. The rolling helps to prepare the muscles or the myofascial tissues for performance. And I have some other anecdotal stories, lots of anecdotal stories of people using them mid-game or mid-performance to improve or win or overcome.

Oh my God, I'm getting really cold. I'm starting to shiver. But she did this in college-age students. So she replicated the study in middle-age students. Now there's not a lot of studies on middle-age just people because it's not easy to of studies on middle-aged people because it's not easy to do it at university.

It's convenient to use students. But it's significant because as we age, we start to lose our ankle range of motion. And slip and falls are the number one reason why people fracture hips. And hip fracture is the leading cause of death in the elderly. So even though this wasn't studied in the elderly, you could make a safe guess that if it's improving force output in college age and in middle age people that biology isn't that different

40 years after that so my teeth are chattering yeah we're gonna kick you out of here you have to go home to your family go my family just got off a plane came straight here and smashed for 90 straight minutes thank you oh that was awesome thank you um where can people find you for inviting me right um where can people find you how can they find this new book that you're gonna finish oh god i'll let you know that book is definitely not There's going to be something else out before that, which is a medical textbook I'm contributing to on self-myofascial release. There's a medical textbook. It's not going to be like

only people in medical school will get it, but a bunch of really cool fascia gods are writing it, and I got asked to do the chapter on self-myofascial release. So I'm going to have my hands full with that. Are we about to get a whole slew of information coming down the pipeline on fas myofascial release so i'm gonna have my hands full are we about to get a whole slew of information coming down the pipeline on fascia just like i feel like nutrition people

talked about like you're already getting it no are we already getting it yeah it's just it's going to be more and more but you know there's other things that are super interesting out there yeah you know i mean like i just feel like i'd like to just talk about the vagus nerve all day. So with nutrition, it was like, now everybody's just like so focused on gut health and your microbiome and now, yeah. And then all of a sudden, like, is, is fascia coming where the whole world is going to be talking about this very soon? Ah, the whole world. I hope it's going to become like a, a common theme. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think, I think. Like we've gotten past the muscles. We've gotten past the connective tissues.

And now all of a sudden we're getting into like some real. Well, yeah. Well, here's the deal. Y'all start talking about fascia. Y'all. This is how tired I am. My New Orleans accent is starting to come out. New Orleans.

We'll be talking about fluids. Gotcha. One of my friends, you know Perry Nicholson? Stop chasing pain guy? Yeah, stop chasing pain. He is on the lymph train. But that is, I think, going to be the next wave. Yeah, I think so too.

Because really, you don't have fascia without fluids and so we're talking about sort of the inert component of fascia which is the the the fibrous connective tissues but the fluids are really what is maintaining everything you are a stew and you know you don't get to have things you're floating in your stew so we have to make sure our stew is well managed. Where can people find you? You're so awesome. Okay, so that's my prediction for the future. We're predicting the future now.

Look out for the pee and poo comments, all the stew fluid stuff. You can find me at tuneupfitness.com is my website. And on Instagram, I am find me at tuneupfitness.com is my website killer. And on Instagram, I am at yoga tuneup. My brand page is at tuneup fitness on Instagram. So if you want to hear me being opinionated yoga tuneup, but if you want to get like, you know,

free stuff and contests, go to the tuneup belong to both or belong. What does that mean? Belong, follow personality at yoga tuneup. Exactly. There it is. Yeah. Cause that's, does that mean, belong? Follow. Personality at Yogatune Up. Exactly. There it is. Yeah, because I do a lot of kid stuff.

Like, I love showing the development of my little kids. Yeah. They're crazy. They learn in an interesting way. Are they amazing? Yeah. Yeah. It's not, yeah.

Oh, we don't need to. This whole thing, this kid thing is weird to me. I didn't even know you had a kid. You're so, like, secretive. It's good. Well. You're like a super like a celebrity you have people that follow you too that they don't know you so i just it's it's weird to me that my kids would be online i don't know it's everyone's choice you can do your whatever you do i just don't even know the people that follow me so i don't really i don't know just my wife and i talked about it we're

like yeah let's keep it off your page so if you want to go follow my wife oh well there it is now access to your kids yeah the private page that she doesn't accept anybody um i'll tell her to accept you you're cool um jenna scare yes where can people find you? DocJenFit. There it is. Instagram. All the things. 8.30 at night. Every night. Squatting. Trying to generate some heat with Jen.

Right. Generate some heat with Jen. You guys got to be here. She's so strong. Oh, my God, you guys. She is so strong. And now I'm just getting felt up. This is a great way to end the podcast.

Oh, I love it. You are so strong. I had no idea we were getting into this. It's beautiful. I'm so tired. I hope this keeps going as we end the show. Right? And that's a wrap, guys.

Keep this up at dinner. Doug Larson. Yeah, follow me on Instagram. Douglas E. Larson on Instagram. I also have my own site, Doug Larson Fitness. Check Larson. Yeah, follow me on Instagram. Douglas E. Larson on Instagram. I also have my own site, Doug Larson Fitness. Check that out. We do Barbell Strug every Wednesday and most Saturdays, and I have Technique WOD on YouTube on Sundays.

Technique WOD. That's right. Brought it back. Learn it. Yeah. StrugCollective.com, at Strug Collective. I'm Anders Varner, at Anders Varner. I don't have a website.

That's my own. So just go to Strug Collective, all the things. All the shows. Six days a week. Three, four YouTube shows going out a week. Wow. It's like eight to ten big productions a week going out. It's fun. You need an agent. I need a season out of you

on FASHA. Eight shows from Jill Miller every Friday on FASHA. What? Yes. I just pitched that to you right now. A season? Every Friday is a seasonal show, so we get to go super deep on just a single subject. Sure, sure, sure.

We'll be talking about this. Okay. It's just like, ugh, more to do. I still have to type up my notes from the FASHA. I'm going to listen to the show like five times. So I know what I just learned because I'm deliriously jet lagged. Jen lagged. Yeah, get into the Strut Collective.

We will see you guys. Hey, thank you so much. Jen, hey, good choice. Good job. Alternating squats. We'll see you guys on Wednesday. This is working for me. It was.

It is working, actually. That's a wrap, folks. Jill Miller, what a killer. That lady is so much fun. I had a blast talking to her. Love hanging out with Doc Jen Fit. Doug Larson and I kicking it in Venice

Beach at Deuce Gym. Just an awesome day. I want to thank our sponsors ThriveMarket.com forward slash shrug. Save 25% on your first order. Make sure you get over to doug larson fitness he's got a sale going on on movement specific mobility msm 50 save 50 that sale ends at midnight tonight so if you're listening past wednesday you're too late also get over follow

me at instagram on instagram at andrews varner shoot me a DM. Tell me how you feel about the show. Take a screenshot. Put it in your stories. Tag me. I'd love to hear who's loving the show, who is out there listening. I love meeting and talking to all of you people. You're the best. Thank you so much for tuning in. I appreciate the shit out of you.

I cannot believe the momentum, the vibe, all the good things that are going on with the show these days and every time I tune in to the iTunes rankings and I see us creeping up we're poking in the top 10 all the time now I've only been here since April as the host helping out at Shrug

since the beginning of the year in January so we're only 11 months into this party. And, man, I'm just super grateful for everybody that tunes in. So thank you so much. Tell your friends. This thing's just getting started. I will see you on Saturday.