Barbell Shrugged - Feed Me Fuel Me  — The Space Between w/ Dr. Cara Miller  — 102

Episode Date: August 30, 2018

Dr. Cara Miller, MDiv, PhD is a developmental psychologist and performance coach. This week we dive deep into the psychology of the space between where you are, and where you actually want to be. Dr. Miller goes for it in this episode, taking Mycal Anders through an exercise that exposes a very deep subconscious negative feedback loop that has been inhibiting his ability to grow for quite some time.   Dr. Miller specializes in adaptive leadership and is an organizational designer for complexity, growth and performance. She has been quite influential in the world of organizational leadership. She spends the majority of her time helping the leaders of small start ups and multi-million dollar enterprises alike identify the holes in their systems, cultural inefficiencies, and mechanisms that can be put in place to create not only a culture of growth, but empowerment from the top down. For someone who has worked with and around the brightest minds in academia as a professor at the University of San Diego and Harvard, she has a such a polished delivery of very complex ideas and methods, that they are easily understood and applied by her clients.   For her to work her magic and really assist those in her audience in getting out of there own way to attain what they truly want, she simply requires two things: their willingness, and their permission. So as you sit down with us this week, allow Dr. Miller to stretch you by exposing the negative feedback loop you have running in your head, which in turn filters through to the actions and habits you present on a daily basis, and be willing to take an introspective look into yourself so that change can indeed occur.   Thank you for being open and willing to join us on our journey, this one is indeed at game changer!   - Jeff and Mycal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Show notes: http://www.shruggedcollective.com/fmfm_miller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ► Subscribe to Shrugged Collective's Channel Here http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedSubscribe 📲 🎧 Listen to the audio version on the Apple Podcast App or Stitcher for Android Here- http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedApple http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedStitcher Shrugged Collective is a network of fitness, health and performance shows that help people achieve their physical and mental health goals.  Usually in the gym, but outside as well. In 2012 they posted their first Barbell Shrugged podcast and have been putting out weekly free videos and podcasts ever since. Along the way we've created successful online coaching programs including The Shrugged Strength Challenge, The Muscle Gain Challenge, FLIGHT, Barbell Shredded, and Barbell Bikini. We're also dedicated to helping affiliate gym owners grow their businesses and better serve their members by providing owners tools and resources like the Barbell Business Podcast. Find Shrugged Collective and their flagship show Barbell Shrugged here: SUBSCRIBE ON ITUNES ► http://bit.ly/ShruggedCollectiveiTunes WEBSITE ► https://www.ShruggedCollective.com INSTAGRAM ► https://instagram.com/shruggedcollective FACEBOOK ► https://facebook.com/barbellshruggedpodcast TWITTER ► http://twitter.com/barbellshrugged

This is episode number 102 of the Feed Me, Fuel Me podcast with our special guest, Dr. Cara Miller. Welcome to the Feed Me, Fuel Me podcast. My name is Jeff Thornton, alongside my co-host, Michael Anders. Each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message related to our three pillars of success. Manifestation, business, fitness, and nutrition. Our intent is to enrich, educate, and empower our audience to take action, control, and accountability for their decisions. Thank you for allowing us to join you on your journey. Now let's get started. Hey, what's going on crew? Welcome to another episode of the Feed Me, Feel Me podcast. Darius and Jeff coming at you from the CrossFit Games.

We have the honor of having Dr. Cara Miller, Logan's developmental coach. We met her at the Hold the Standards Summit. And I'll let you dive into your journey in academia and everything and how you got to this point with Logan here in a second. But the reason that you're sitting here with us today, you went through an exercise during the summit with Logan that I've not experienced in any seminar that I've been in at any point to date. And the vulnerability that you were able to draw out of him or allow him to exhibit was extremely powerful to me. And in that exchange, as I was explaining to you a couple of days ago, there's

an empathy about you as you were having that exchange with Logan. And it was interesting to witness you feeling what he felt in that moment and to witness that, the physical manifestation of that was something that just really drew me into the experience. And as I kind of teed up for you the other day, I don't know if that's natural for you, if that's something that you've become aware of and you actively practice or like where that sits with you. And I kind of want to draw that out as we go on with this conversation. But for everybody who doesn't know who you are and what you do, we just went through the stereo, the perception versus the reality of

what you do as a developmental coach. Walk us through your, your, your journey to this point. Thank you for having me. I think that's what you're supposed to say, right? Thanks you guys. It's really good to be here. I mean, if you were waiting in the audience, these guys are going to come get me so yeah we got the formalities yeah i'll say what's on script because the rest of the time i'm off script um no but i am i'm pleased because i think this is the place where i want to live i want to live in this like other quality other texture of experience other other state, you know, non-ordinary state of relationships and of learning and of, you know, thinking and being. And so, so

you want to know sort of how I've come up? Yeah. Is that right? How'd you get here? Okay. So let me think for a second how I want to frame this. I mean, my education is usually the first thing that people experience about me. And that's okay, because I am a learner and I love that role. So my learning began early. My most significant learning experience was a world view class, if you can believe that, in my high school. We basically got the first chance ever in my adolescent life to ever realize that I had a thing that I saw the world through. And that other people have a thing that I saw the world through and that other people have a thing that they saw the world through and they were not the same thing, even if they seemed like they were the same thing, the same affiliation or had the same title. So that was a big revelation for me

to realize that the way that I saw the world was mine and that I had the opportunity to deconstruct it to you know take a look at it and that sometimes like it had me and other times like I was able to have it and so that was a significant learning experience for me. When I went to college, I had some, I went to UC Santa Barbara. And like, you know, all the jokes aside, like my academic experience there was really significant. And the reason it was is because it was such a big school. There's like so many things going on that I started relationships with a few professors. And I started to realize how much of a like golden

opportunity that is, how much they're available. Actually, my number one piece of advice for students going into college or going to universities is seek out relationships with your professors. They're passionate about learning. They're passionate about students. Some are, some are assholes. You'll see them. You'll know them when you see them, not them. Um, but find those people because they're going to be a significant part of shaping you as a learner, which is going to serve you your whole life. If you can stay curious, if you can trust yourself to know and discern and create for yourself the way that you see the world. And so a few of those people were significant for me. And they made me appreciate myself as a

learner and also trusted me to interpret information for myself. And so that was an exciting experience for me. I knew I wanted to do more of that. I also had a significant spiritual journey growing up. My family was always in church, and my mom is a pastor. She's been a pastor for 20 years. perception of like gender and authority as well as my you know understanding of like what it is to walk a spiritual way so you know what through growing up years and then also in college I was you know seeking and pursuing a spiritual life and and it was it was at the end of college that i realized that like you could go somewhere where there was academics going on and also this like spiritual journey where you

could ask like really big ontological questions of like so what does it all mean like we got all this learning like and then what does that mean and then then we give this whole bunch more learning and challenge it and bat it around and then how does it come to ground? And that calls into question all kinds of very interesting pursuits of sustainability and the environment and how we take care of the gifts of creation that we've been given

or that we're participating in every minute. And what it brought me to was the decision to go to seminary at Princeton. And that was like a huge reach for me as a learner. I was not like a perfect student. And I came from a university that was kind of, you know, non-Ivy League. And so that was a really big reach for me. But I figured out a way to, like, get in there and also start to create some relationships

with professors there who could help me hold these two things together. And that would determine a lot of the shape of who I've become as a professional and how I survive, like, in the type of roles that I end up taking on. So it started to build the idea that spirituality is a practice and that it's something that I can do with my body and with my imagination and with my creativity and my art and also with my academics so that my academics could serve my spiritual search for meaning and that that spiritual search for meaning would filter

and make more meaningful my academic pursuits. So seminary, knowing I wanted to do more academics, I did a PhD and that PhD sort of like was the door opener for a lot of things for me you know don't call me if you have a heart attack but like being

Dr. Miller like gets you a thing in our society and so having that thing has like walked me into some really cool places where I could have an influence. I could give an offering, bring a different type of gift to a setting

where it wouldn't usually get brought. Along the way, I've had some incredible students. So students that would start to seek me out in the way that I sought my professors out. And Logan would sort of top that list of a student who was so hungry to learn to pursue the meaningful life that was rigorous, and it's intellectual, and it's meaningful,

and it's on the ground, and it's based in relationships that last over time um and so my relationship with him as a learner first and now like as a like co-learner um has walked me into some interesting places that like we might not have expected me to be and uh the hold the standard summit is one of those places where we're in a crossFit gym, and I'm sitting on a CrossFit box, and I'm being me, and I'm offering my gifts, and we're translating together the ways that we enhance or illuminate the learning that each of us have,

the expertise that each of us have, and how we not only meet each other in really meaningful ways in order to bring out that, like, offering or really, like, be our fullest selves, but that we start to turn around, turn outward and start to offer that experience to other people, invite other people to that experience. And so, you know, as we get into it, you know, one of my questions would be, from what you were observing, what was the experience that you were having? You're seeing Logan have an experience and you're seeing me in practice. And you recognize there's some space between us where something's going on. And it's very organic organic it's very raw it's like it's not a

it's not a framework only something else is going on there sure and um and so i'm very interested in that experience because i think it is a part of sort of like what i've come up to do is to curate more and more opportunities to you, have people experience that because it's been the most meaningful thing in my life. Um, and also to really learn about what's happening and how do we curate places where that occurs? Because God knows we need like more meaningful relationships with like our environment and like our society and like together. So, um, if this, if this is an offering towards that, then that's what I'm about. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Um, do you want me to answer that question? Yes. Do you want to? No, absolutely. No, for sure. It was a teaser, like a little bit of a teaser you're like and i felt something next

we can't ask the listeners if they want to hear but i think they want to hear so i'm going i'm going to blow it out of the water because i don't know how to adequately explain the construct of the exercise so yeah we'll break the fourth wall and you jump in where I fuck it up. Okay. Awesome. Great. So, uh, could you just do this in real time? You want to do this in real time? Yeah. Okay, cool. So, uh, as the exercise goes, what we want to get out of it is we want to identify the, the limiting belief, the, the, the monologue that we have with ourselves about why we can't elevate past level three to get to level four. You can't achieve the thing you want to achieve because you.

Correct. Because you believe something that's actually not true. Sure. Yes. So as we go through this exercise, you start with the thing that you cannot do, right? The hurdle that you just can't get over. We identify that thing, right? As we go through this exercise,

in that first step, I identified that I cannot grow. I choose not to grow because I feel so fucking guilty about the growth, right? So that's where we start. And then we'll start step two. So what's step two? Well, I think I edited your step one, which was like, you know what you can't do, right? But what is it that you want to do? Ah, yes. I want to grow. Yes. Sands the guilt. Yes.

There we go. And I think there was a piece of it that was, I want to grow and not leave others behind. Yes. Yes. Your memory is so important. You deal with so many people. This is great. Because that's actually like, that's the juice of the thing. Right. Right. And like with your background, like leaving people behind is like a thing, right? Like you don't do that. So you could understand why like, there's like a huge like consequence to that of you going out and getting the thing or going out and achieving the thing and getting the victory and leaving people behind right right like you have an inherent judgment about that that's probably more than institutional okay like right you're probably representing more than your institution right that you've represented before and so yeah the second step is like so what is it that you do you know to

in order to like achieve but also not exclude others you know achieve it only like you know okay i'm that small victor like what is it that you do to minimize right the the perception that you're victorious and you love having brought people with you right or that now you're a distance I wrote a bunch of garbage down, but now Articulate it You know that the things that I do to negate what I want or impede it You know, I waste a lot of time and I delegate incorrectly and with which that affords me the opportunity to tolerate a lot of things that I do that stunt the growth so that in my mind, the narrative goes in doing so I'm allowing people the opportunity to catch

up. Right. So that we can continue this thing together. Yeah. So one of the questions, you know, that immediately comes to mind is like, are people, you know, saying to you, wait, wait, comes to mind is like, are people, you know, saying to you, wait, wait, don't grow, keep, let us keep up. Like, are they doing that? Or are they saying, dude, go grow, go do the thing. Like you have potential, you know, like we want to see you achieve, bring it back here. Like take a, you know, like like are they doing that or are they like don't go yeah do it no i i definitely hear more of the latter than i've ever heard the former um

and the matter of fact the last uh when i sat down and i had that that objective heart to heart with my staff and it was like if there's anything that i can fix in the here and now to adjust the course of this organization in a positive direction what would it be and uh the the answer i found very ironic was you go to all this shit you meet all these cool people. We'd like to know when you go. Right? And what are you preventing from happening? What are you protecting for by not doing that? I didn't realize that it was one of those things that I didn't even want. This shit's not a want. I didn't realize I wasn't doing.

Because it's of such genuine interest to me, I just do. There's no exclusion or failure to invite in my mind. It's as I paint my picture, it's like this is, there is nobody above me. So these are the things that I have to do to continue my growth. It's like this is, there is nobody above me, right? So these are the things that I have to do to continue my growth. At no point that I take into consideration that they might be interested in that same process. So it's more. Well, and so two things exist, which are like opposing each other, which is crazy.

But like we've all got this, right? Like next podcast is me doing mine. Okay. And then, like, Jeff, we do yours, you know? Like, we're going to do yours, whatever. And the two things that are opposed are what you really want is to not selfishly grow, but to grow in a way that brings others along and like doesn't create distance between your learning and the people that you care about or that you feel responsible to lead or who you want to influence and that what you actually are

doing is like being awfully selfish by just being like I'll just go do my thing I don't want to bother you guys you know like this is or like this is my thing to do right and my thing and so you know i'm exaggerating it but like this is pretty typical like this is the pattern and the problem right which is the the very thing that we really want to be like our pursuit of it like is the thing we don't want to be like, it's such a bummer. Right. So, um, so like the, what's the worry, you know, if you actually go get the thing and bring others along. Right. Right. That's the place where I, I was saying before, you know, like it started to get kind of yucky.

You don't want to stand up and be like, if I go to a seminar and i bring other people like we all might shine or we like i won't get to bring something back or i won't feel like the victory was mine or like you know there's like there's usually some sort of kind of story in there that's driving things right did you find a story like that? Oh yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Well, I'm not going to fill it in anymore. So, I mean the, the, the narrative as it goes in my mind is, um, uh, is, is the, the relinquishing of control, right? So if I give all of that, that power to my coaches and my organization to do what they need to do for it to thrive it will

It will no longer be mine, right? I will As a byproduct of this giving I will be forgotten as I pursue this other thing and having you know in the context of the building of CrossFit PHX, like that was such, such a monumental accomplishment in my life to, I don't know if it's a subconscious recognition thing, but like, fuck, I put so much work into that and to not be attached to it anymore. The fear of not being attached to it, uh, is devastating to me. Yeah.

Right. Even though it's thriving and yes, you know, I'm the founder of it and blah, blah, blah. Like all those things are still true. Yes. But in the day to day, you know, not being there, you know, not having, not being required to be there and it's still doing its thing, you know like as awesome as that is and as much as all of us entrepreneurs talk about autopilot and residual income i want to build it to sell it and all those things right what's the reality it's fucking terrifying yeah right and uh to the extent that when I take on something that could truly be fruitful,

right, there is proof of concept there, writing a book or whatever, either it doesn't get done or it gets done extremely half-ass. Like the book I have out there right now, quite honestly, I think is a piece of shit and I can't wait to rewrite it. Um, but it's because I didn't want to leave the thing to do the thing. Yes. You know? So that's where that narrative goes. Yes. Yeah.

And like that yucky narrative, like, I mean, can you find the place where like that's pretty yucky? You don't want to stand up and be like, I'd like to say how I've gotten here. I can't believe I just fucking to say how I've gotten here. I can't believe I just fucking said that. I know. Thank you. I feel real shitty right now. So this podcast not getting published?

I know this is happening. Let's get some cheese curds. We're good, right? Sorry. No, no, no. We're here now. I need you to pull me out of this hole. We're going to finish this exercise.

Yeah. And what's going to pull you out of this exercise is your dissatisfaction with your internal chatter. Yeah. So athletes are really good about talking about internal chatter, right? Whether it's a batter's box or it's a boxing ring or it's a cross country run, whatever the thing is, yoga, you know, all of it addresses this reality that we have this running transcript going inside of our minds. And until somebody really steps in there to try to say, hold on, let me just roll that back and read it back to you. Let me just read back to you what you just told yourself. You told yourself that this thing is true. And now you're making

decisions off of this truth. Like when I show it to you, like, is that true? Right? No, like, it's not true. Right. And I think that thing that's not true is that like if you lead if you you know accomplish something if you get bigger yeah if you take up more space if you create independence where there may be like close dependence if you create those things that you will be forgotten or that you are forgettable. Sure. Nobody wants to be forgettable. Right.

But like for whatever reason for you, like that's the thing that feels the scariest. So figuring out like I don't want to live my life like on, you know, protecting myself from being forgotten, right? Yeah. Like because guess what? You're going to do that and you you're gonna spend all your energy on that instead of doing things that are memorable like doing things that are worth being remembered for right so how do you cut the tank on i don't want to be forgotten i don't want to be forgotten i don't want to be forgotten i got to keep this all this shit all these plates and spinning and whatever and turn around and be like i'm going to figure out how to create something memorable

that's the like turn and dissatisfaction and internal chatter all that kind of stuff is what drives that thing the other thing that makes that possible is the thing you were talking to me about earlier, I think, was my like ticket to this conversation, which was this quality of like a companion or a coach or whatever. Sometimes that's an overused term, especially in your industry. Right. Sure. But it's basically somebody to say full stop. What's the container you need to unpack this stuff that's not true anymore like what's the grief that we need to acknowledge or what's the potential that we need to give you

a taste of so that you're willing to make the turn or make the change and i'm right here. I'm going to stay right here. Um, we sometimes talk about it as a mirror, you know, like I'm going to stay here with the mirror and it's an uncomfortable, you know, situation to look at yourself and to look at what you believe and be unsatisfied, be really dissatisfied with it. Sure. Not to judge it because it built who you are. It got you here. Right. But like it's too small to get you somewhere memorable. Sure.

So how do you give yourself some more space, grow into it so that you can actually claim your spot, claim your gift, claim your offering, not in gift, claim your offering, not in an egotistical way. Like, I know I'm here. I know I've got something to be, you know, but where like, it really is like, it's like life force that springs from you. Like I'm in pursuit of the thing I was brought here, brought up to be, and I'm not afraid to be that. And I don't need to have that be better than anybody else's probably not going to look like anybody else's um that takes real courage and

you know I I do that like I am doing that I am finding the courage to say what I do doesn't look like what other people do and this is what I was given breath to do. And this should influence my parenting. And this should influence my friendships. So it's not just in my coaching and I have this sort of false self where I show up this way. But it's like, no, this comes up through me and out of me. And it creates a quality of something that enables the person to halt the internal chatter, pay attention to their body, because all kinds of stuff happens in your body. You know, like, I mean, this would be interesting to hear you guys talk about, too. It's like, what was your, like, visceral or physical experience of this kind of work and

because you're really focused on movement right right right um and so what's the embodied piece of this because it's very intellectual yeah sometimes it's really emotional um but there's a physical aspect to it too and so you know like your physical like take a look at how he's sitting right now like what do you notice closed off for sure like he just like went like like the fence pulled in totally like and that's like something so worth paying attention to it's like we're somewhere where like that is you know a real like you're showing yourself something it's like worth paying attention like what's my body doing right now um now do i pay attention to it honor it address it just put it in the thing and like mix it in you know it's like it's not there's not a judgment of it it's useful

to me like my body's telling me something my brain's telling me something like sometimes my like my eyes get wet and that tells me something and you know like i think that's where like you called it empathy i think and if that's what it is then it's a very rich piece of like being a human and um and i do want to represent that in the world sure yeah i'd say you're really good at it so you're you're living it yeah score that's okay i have other trigger points i'm in the airplane and somebody's like shoving their bag into the overhead bin and we're all like it won't it i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this thing and you're like i'm gonna go

non-empathy like no thing they're not like wow you over, you're like a Jedi. That's awesome. Thanks for that. You know, I don't want to diverge from that conversation that you both are having with that experience. You know, but one question I do have, and we picked it up with Logan when he was talking about the independent study that he did with you. And he mentioned that, you know, they created this beautiful learning center at this, at San Diego. And he didn't have the opportunity to partake in the classes that you were offering because he had such a heavy schedule with his baseball and it was interfering. And he mentioned it to, you know, the powers to be that, can you guys work around my schedule? Do, you know, make it fit for me. And then he ended up going to you and your office and you just said, simply give me your information and I'll let you know, and I'll contact you. And he said,

he didn't know what went on in that time period, but he expressed that you did, you jumped through hoops for him. And I sort of want to know what exactly that you do and where did that come from for, you know, where you're sitting to have that level of compassion for somebody and to sort of put your neck out there on the line to make this available to a to a man like that and change his life essentially and just call to question the powers to be and say like if we're going to create something that's here to help people why are you taking away from them so i want to hear your side on like exactly what you went through in that process of when he came to you and everything you had to do on the back end to make that happen. This is a good question. I mean, it takes me to like an issue that people

don't often talk about, but it's so present for all of us and that is power and that my personal belief about power is you know the ability to make something happen or like to influence an outcome and that that should be used like really well and that that should be really like very well checked um and that that should be very well checked and that that's an honor to have power. In that situation, I recognized that when he comes in my office, I knew that I had power that he did not have. And his passion was coming up against his low power right and I was suspicious also that there was being there was power being exerted against him because of his stereotype because he showed up as a student athlete and so

you know there was a bit of like an injustice there. And so part of my values would be to figure out like, what do I have to influence this situation? Not to fix it, not to solve it, not to be heroic or whatever. But that like my power should be in service of something exactly like this. Because my power is not given to me or earned or however it is, you know, however I end up with it. What is it good for? What's it on behalf of? What is it for the sake of? And at that point in my professional journey or in my career, I was really feeling the oppression of learners, of people who are pursuing sort of higher consciousness or breaking boundaries or trying to understand the system and their place in it. And so, you know, I felt like my students were oppressed.

And so I was really ready to advocate for them and to use my power on their behalf. Now, it wasn't just power on behalf of like any athlete right and it wasn't because logan was like an awesome baseball player right like i didn't know that all i knew is he was a student athlete and so you know his desire or his pursuit for learning triggered in me, like I only figured out later as I started to unpack it, my own feelings of wanting to liberate myself from the oppression of having been a learner coming up in that type of a system that said, you know, you can only do this, you can only think that, right? There are limits to what you can challenge or not, how much power you are permitted to have, and that I, you know, internalized a lot of that.

And so it was my desire that my students get liberated from that oppression. And that translated into student athletes, too, that they were specifically oppressed, you know, in that system, in that power dynamic. And so I would say it was gratifying to me to know that I knew what my power was on behalf of at that moment it was on behalf of students because they were you know like my people and um and I invited them to study with me and I invited them to write with me and I invited like my dissertation started out as like an economic theory rational choice thing and it became through my teaching experiences and

experiences like this how meaningful that was to me to give my influence and like watch it do something real um you know my dissertation became how to create a community that everyone's bought in and everyone has a say and um and so so i think there was there's something about that about using power well that inspired me about that opportunity felt like it was being given to me like here's your opportunity to use your power on behalf of someone who doesn't have the power to move. And I was gonna get, just to be totally frank, I was gonna get nothing for it. My colleagues were like, why would you do that? I didn't get paid to do that.

I didn't get recognition to do that. Nobody knew that I was doing that. I got nothing to do for that, you know But in reality like I got everything I wanted right I got the opportunity to get really up close to a learner or someone who was gonna experience Liberation from oppression go learn and I got to be the companion So I think that was the beginning of me, you know, thinking to myself, like, this role is cool. And that like, I'm going to, you know, be up behind

them or right underneath them while they experience, you know, a bigger self. And, and that the relationship that we're curating in this thing, you know, that my vulnerable power, that's the kind of power I think I was using with him, my vulnerable power to say, yeah, like I'll enter into this with you because I see you in pursuit of something that I'm also in pursuit of. And there were people who removed my obstacles. And I want to be an obstacle remover too. I don't know if that's even a thing. Whatever. I want to remove obstacles. And the gift that I got back from it was a quality of relationship or a texture of relationship that felt very, very real.

And I've been in pursuit of that ever since. The fact that that exact relationship now has sustained over 10 years and changed over time is exponentially more meaningful because it's pushed my edges and it's pushed his edges. And so now my clients, I think, um, would all report some version of this, giving them the opportunity to create a place where they

can become a bigger version of themselves, where they can sort of take up power, take up, you know, their own ability to liberate themselves from some of the socialized oppression that we have to tune in to where they're at and that that's meaningful to them too. Starting to break it down into

what are the practices that support this? We've got a lot of psychological theories. We've got a lot of all that kind of stuff. know but it sits in journals right and it sits in classrooms that people are not privy to and so you know how do we step outside of that get onto the street and like live our lives you know because i have children and i have neighbors and so you know i don't only get to do this you know in some special office somewhere and then come out into the real world. This has to count in the real world if it's going to count for anything.

I sit with my clients all the time and say, what are we for the sake of? Things are going to get better for you, and this is going to push me as a practitioner, and we're learning more about what works and how this is and what the, you know, what this is. Who are we sharing this with? Who are we open to? Who can get in here if this is a good thing? Right.

And I don't totally know the answer to that question. Hold the standard summit is one way to expose that to others. Talking to you guys you know um but the mechanics of how i made that independent study happen that feels more like a bootstrap it do this thing over here like let's do you know jury rigged the thing or whatever and like come on you owe me a favor and like i think this is kind of interesting plus he agreed to bring me burritos like you know and like that that it was more like that behind the scenes but like i'm gonna i'm giving you the like more meaningful version that over time that's what's changed for me yeah and that i how i understand power i think power isn't something that gets talked about sure as freely

as that or vulnerably as that yeah but it's really meaningful if you can go there yeah well it's really interesting you know we were talking offline uh before we got on the mic about just the the institution of academia you know and especially in your field i feel like this has a lot of context in terms of increasing the consciousness of society, right? And, you know, for as much as the institution of school is so information-driven, they're not very excited about sharing the information, right? And that just kind of brings us full circle

to the conversation that we're having now in that we have this kind of brings us full circle to the conversation that we're having now in that we have this kind of dialogue in our circles all the fucking time right and then when that circle breaks now we have to we're under the gun to deem others who don't run in these circles as worthy of the introduction to this school of thought, this way of thinking, this circle of people, right? And we find it extremely unfair that access to this way of thinking, you know, this circle of people as exclusive as it is, that it has to be that way so just having somebody like yourself on this show engaging in this dialogue it you know uh acknowledging it for what it is

is extremely powerful and that you know you you are kind of breaking the system in your own way through your practice to take everything that you've attained through academia and increasing the consciousness of society through your clients in how you coach them. So that's amazing. Thank you. And I can, like, throw it back to you guys too and that is like you have the power to do something like that right like you can either have the privilege of running in the circles and meeting people like logan and talking with me or whatever um but like this is your power to give it that away you know or to give access So, you know, my yes to this podcast is like, you know, I didn't even get a burrito out of this thing, right?

That's coming after you. That's coming after you. Where are we going to get a burrito in Wisconsin? Hello? Is there anybody from San Diego over here and get us a burrito? I think they're about to open the bar. Yeah, well, that's fine.

I can get you a drink. Okay, yeah, that's good. Okay, I drink mezcal and bourbon. Not together, but yeah yeah that's my drink just in case anybody else wants a podcast there we go i work for burritos and bourbon we're gonna make you a shirt yeah go for it um no i mean i think you know you guys being able to ask yourselves like what are you on behalf of? What are you for the sake of? Is this part of that?

You know, giving access where people don't have access or creating access. Using, you know, we, you and I talked earlier about privilege. Yeah. And how do we acknowledge our privilege? Not to be ashamed of it or like, be like, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. You know, it's like, that's not not helpful it doesn't connect us more right we're looking for the things like to move the shit out of the way so that then we connect more and you know i some somebody asked me this the other night like i feel like you're looking at me in like a really weird way or something like that, you know? And I've said, like, you know what?

Your gaze actually is really powerful. Like, your ability to, like, hold someone in your gaze is very, very powerful. It impacts people. And your ability to stay in that gaze is a gift to people. It can also feel kind of, like, arresting or kind of like violent too so you have to be really careful that it's not like a weapon or it's not like i'm gonna put this on you and then i'm gonna you know break you down or whatever that's a really dangerous place to go

but um but that if you really offer that to someone it's a like a very physical way of starting to create this connection of saying like, you know, we need to figure out how to connect here in order to solve our problems, whether it's global problems or whether it's gym problems, right? Like we got gym problems and we don't know how to solve them. Maybe when Mike goes to Madison or whatever,

like he'll learn something that he's going to bring back and like, we're going to hack our problems, you know? But like, yeah. Okay, good. There's great stuff to learn.

You guys got seminars coming out your ears in this industry. Um, but if you can figure out the ways to solve your problems that draw you closer together or closer to purpose, then you're going somewhere. and that is worth being remembered for that's huge and as you've continued to evolve and grow personally and professionally you know where have where they're not even where. How have you continued to find mentorship, you know, at the level you are? Because, you know, speaking of Logan, it was just being able to,

and we use the word, to humble yourself to acknowledge that you don't have all the answers and how he reaches up to you to help discover and, you know, embrace his weaknesses, as we call it, and find his strengths. How do you continue to do that in your life? Well, Ed, it's one thing that you said okay um and not out of like false humility but that like you know like now he reaches like over to me which is cool okay yeah so there was a time when he would have reached up to me but that he's's done his own, you know, internal work that we all have to do about people who we respect or we admire. He's done the work of bringing me down

into ordinary life. And some of that has been my responsibility to change, you know, our dynamic to become, you know, become a real person and offer more and more of myself, which has required my own courage to reveal more and more of my own need to grow, to be growing and that I need others, you know, to show me a mirror and I need other people to speak into my life and to encourage me. And so this pursuit that you're talking about,

this is not like an easy Craigslist ad, like looking for developmental mentors. Could be virtual, could be in San Diego. It's not a thing um and i certainly have uh academic versions of this available to me um and only two maybe three people have been able to do both things been really rigorous academically where i can really respect what they're doing and it's it's really it pushes me to my edge my learning edge my complexity edge and they can show up in relationship to me that has this quality that we're talking about whether it's empathy or whether it's you know we talk about it

as like yearning for one another's development as much as we yearn for our own development. And those two people are Bill Torbert, who used to be a Boston College professor. I encountered him through some other fellowship academic stuff. And he's got great theories, got great work. He has a theory of leadership development, how leaders develop through different stages of awareness and how they hold their present moment awareness and also their big, like, over time perspective closer and closer and closer together. So they have more and more timely moves in their leadership, right? I wasn't sure how he would show up. The more that I got to like be exposed to him,

the more I realized he was showing up in integrity with the things that he was talking about, the theories that he was offering to explain the things he observed about leaders, about CEOs, you know, he did a lot of business study. The other person is, his name is Bob Keegan. And I worked for him at Harvard. I work with him now in some consulting capacity.

So he's become an important person, because while he's sort of like the godfather of adult development, and his theory is fantastic, and it's the most rigorous one with the most data over time, it's longitudinal, it's all the things you want to hear, blah, blah, blah uh that doing life with him or doing work with him is super meaningful and so you know i have a a version of him that matches in a lot of ways the things that he has observed and turned into theory and said like look we're all constructing our reality here let's just agree on that and let's try to find each other you know knowing that right like i'm the narrator in my

story and like you're the narrator in your story and like you're the narrator in your story let's just try the impossible which is to like somehow start to try to compare stories and get on the same page it's virtually impossible. And what's required of my heart and what's required of my imagination and what's required of my intellect and my body in order to get somewhere with you. And so those two men have done that really well. And they are at least a generation or two older than me. So I've had some distance with that um i feel a little bit like rebellious against the old institution thing like they're both white dudes not by their choosing

um they're kind of older and they're ivy league and they've got all this stuff built into them so more and more i've drilled into like the desire to have really like mutual relationships with people who are more purely to me. Yeah. And it's way more challenging. Really? Yeah. Sure. So I have, you know, I have a map that's like a three-dimensional it's also like has a soundtrack going to it like of my life of these

relationships where i've tried on them like the mutuality and trying to come out with integrity not like honesty but i mean like integrated like say who i say i am who i want to be is actually who i am when i show up and the inconsistencies that i find when I try to do that, that other people mirror to me. It's way harder when it's like a peer of mine. And that's super challenging. So I would say now the mentors that I seek really are more like peers, people who can speak into my life in a different kind of way than a mentor would

yeah right um and we're we're sort of like more for each other right then like they're for me and they give me a lot of grace they really want me to learn and they think right but i'm like oh thank you thank you you know it's more like no no we're here to like deal with shit together we're here to do life together so like yeah you know know, Logan and I had a two hour one of these like this morning over the coffee. And it's like, you know, we're back and forth and back and forth. And like the resistance is helpful and the leverage is this and the tension and go back and rub. And so those are the things, those are the relationships that I seek now. And I alluded to a couple things that build those. One is my transparent pursuit

of being who I say I want to be. That my actions would match my aspirations. That is fucking hard. You laugh because you know. I know. Right? And the thing like... We just did the thing. thing like we just did the thing i know you just did the thing i know yeah and it's really tempting to get like sort of like a false self or like

feel like an imposter the act as if thing totally and knowing like i'm showing up as this thing and everybody wants me to be this thing and everyone's invested in me being this thing but like I'm the one that knows that like I'm not that thing and like how long is this going to go on and like when do I get relief from this rather than like really like doing the things to grow myself to be the thing that I need to be and figuring out how how do I become okay with the space that I take up with the things that I need like I need to be and figuring out how, how do I become okay with the space that I take up with the things that I need? Like I need to feel worthy and I need to feel loved. And these are really primary things. I need to feel encouraged and I need to feel purposeful and, you know, I'm afraid that I'm not interesting. And, you know, like I got stories running too, you know like i got stories running too you know and i um so that integrity piece or the being

integrated piece is really big and then the mutuality piece is really big too and that's sort of asking for that is big wow and correct me if i'm wrong and i could be off but to me i get your energy is that you're an extremely genuinely genuinely caring person, and you deal with a lot of people, and you might absorb their energy and their feelings and emotions. Is that a correct assumption? way we think there is to do this kind of work but it's a it it's sort of like a um it's too permeable like that's a unboundaried version of this um and it and it creates like a drain on the practitioner or something just like a coach right it's like um creating a boundary actually helps us keep the energy going and keep the tension there so it's like um like turgor pressure in a plant you know like you you feed a plant water whatever it's like all the cells fill up and they push against each other and

they look rather cramped and like boundary to stop and it's like be nice if they could all flow around you know inside the leaves or whatever but it's like, it'd be nice if they could all flow around, you know, inside the leaves or whatever. But it's like, no, that doesn't work. Actually. They have to like be uptight again, you know,

against each other. And, um, and so that like, that helps because if I, if I allow you to sort of just like mold into me, like I'm sunk, I am sunk.

I can't carry you and Tim and me. Right. So developing the self-discipline to boundary the work and to boundary the energy is really important. And this is where it starts to get into like this like kind of woo-woo thing. You know, like our energy, we have to bound it and like that kind of thing. But you're right. Like you can carry that. And coaches carry that too. And they burn out kind of thing. But, um, but you're right. Like you can carry that and coaches carry that too. And they burn out because of this.

You carry your people and they're going through shit. And now like, you've got to be going through the shit because they are in the thing. Like, I mean, what, so like, what's the part of your question that you,

yes, I have that. Okay. Yes. I don't want that. Like, I want to stay healthy i know that my staying healthy makes them better because if i'm too permeable they actually don't know like where they stand with me yeah and they don't they can't be sturdy because i'm not sturdy

right so i can't let that happen or else people feel unsafe or like they don't they're insecure they're not sure and almost paranoid you know right if a leader does that yeah and so i try to hold the boundaries steady you know i love that you added context to that because that the question i was going to ask is how do you clear yourself of that energy okay if that were to happen you know and just set yourself back to balance yeah and stable it out so you can you know be present the next conversation you have with them yes okay that's a great question um yeah okay so a couple ways number one it has happened to me yes totally like any coach i get the people and i'm all wrapped up in the thing and i'm super stressed and i'm like all about them and whatever um and so yes i've come to this what how do i do this and um i have a few

answers one a couple of the part of them are regional so like i get in the ocean that's one thing that i do and um i do that when I travel cuz I travel a lot and for work and wherever I go I try to like get into the water there I find that that lay don't come to Arizona often Body of water, nowhere. There goes that coaching opportunity. Get me a good pool, man. Yeah, I mean, I'm a San Diego kid, right? And I've lived all over the country, but I've come back to San Diego, and this is part of it. My office is, like, right by Seaside, which is, like, a great beach for, you know, I just walk out my door, I lock it up, like walk around the corner and go get in the ocean. Um, that helps me a ton. Um, and part of, part of what that's doing is giving

me a feeling of like, not like weightlessness, like not feeling the physical weight of like what's going on with a leader or what's going on with a system or an organization and so um you know my the physical lightning of my load is happening in water so a lot has been written about water you know like people follow my instagram see like i talk sometimes about that um that's a practice that i have and that my clients like really respond to. They're like, why go on the water? Like, I don't understand or whatever. I'm like, no, no, I'm serious. You go float. Now they have float tanks. Now people can like go do this in the dark, in the

womb and the thing, like the float or whatever. So it's like gotten really sophisticated. Yeah, no, I just have a stinky wetsuit in the back of my office. I put it on, I go around the corner, and I go in the ocean. I come back, slick back my hair into the faucet, and I get back on the phone, right, or Zoom or whatever. That's one thing. The other thing is that just like Logan has a coach, right, and people are sometimes surprised to hear that because they're like, dude, this guy's elite.

Like, he's a rock star. Like, he has a coach? Why? Like, he's killing it. Like, I'm not a rock star, and, like, why like he's killing it um like i'm not a rock star and like i don't have any of that those accolades but i know that i need a coach and i have several and they're shadowing me and so what that does is a couple different things one it keeps me in check and it keeps in check this thing you're talking about, which is the temptation to let somebody, like, stick on me. And hold the paradox that, like, if I don't let the person stick on me or if I don't totally take them in, that somehow I don't care about them or, like, it's not meaningful to me.

I actually am much better in service of them when I don't allow them to overtake me or get enmeshed with me. I'm much better service if I'm sturdy. And so I think my coaches help me check that. They help me check my energy, check my marriage, check my state um and check my sleep you know all the things that i do for my clients like i'm asking my clients how's your relationship going how's your sleep going you know what's going on and um so so yeah so the short answer to that is i love to get in the water i think it's really really good to physically get the weight off of me. And I have shadow coaches who coach me up and know how my development is going.

They know what's on my map, the truths that I use to make decisions that are not true and that I need to unpack. And then I also have relationships that are of a non-ordinary quality. And I would count my husband as one of those people. He's like an insane partner. Like best thing I ever did was choose him as a partner.

He supports, you know, my gifts, my, you know, pursuits. He sees the struggle and doesn't tempt me to quit, you know, like, wow, this is so hard. Why are you doing it? Like nothing, none of that at all. So like, we're sitting here at the top of a hotel in Madison, Wisconsin, and like, he's in San Diego hanging out with my six and eight year old, you know, after camp. And know uh one of my girls one of my girls lost her tooth day before yesterday no kidding and like i usually write the tooth fairy notes like brother had to like get to the like handwriting of the tooth fairy to stay consistent with like the tooth fairy thing i'm sorry you write in cursive he writes in block fuck exactly i was like texting him i'm like

i know what you're saying right now you're like you just turn off the lights and everybody's in bed and there's a tooth under one of the pillows and you're like fuck that's a trip and so i fully picked the right partner because after we get off the phone, I'm going to show you the text, the picture I got of what he created. Slip under their pillow. And like it just it brought me like to tears, you the one with Logan and the one with several other folks around the world who call me out to a bigger version of me. spaces where I can grow up and, um, wake up and become something more, um, understand like why I've been given breath. You know, I said that earlier, but that's really like a breath prayer for me is like, you know, breathing in, like, what am I being given? Like, like breathing out what am i giving and um i know that like i'm i'm i've been given like everything i need to to give and um so i depend on that you know like i i just i believe in that

and i'm staking everything on that i'm taking my career i'm staking my livelihood, staking my relationships, all on that. And this sort of like one go-round here that I'm gonna extract all of the joy and meaning and quality that I can out of it. And I'm gonna make that as possible as many times as I can. So far, it's, like, serving me very well. Yeah. It also gives me a lot of opportunities for reframing, for disconfirming evidence, for failing, for heartbreak,

for, you know, being really up close and personal to a lot of suffering that is really quiet suffering. It's not noisy suffering. It's really quiet, dark suffering. The suffering thing. We've had many conversations about the hero's journey of this entrepreneurship thing, right? Yes. rose journey of this entrepreneurship thing. Right. And so much of what's out there in, uh, the recreational literature of personal growth and development is the celebration of the suffering,

right. And how much, you know, you appreciate what you have because of how much it sucked getting there and blah, blah, blah. And while I find that there's merit to that, for a lot of people that strive for better, I don't think there's an inherent value to that narrative. And what I find for a lot of people that, you know, look up to, to us, to you, to Logan, in these pursuits of something greater than themselves is they look for ways to sabotage their shit so that the story sounds better.

So the suffering never goes away. Yeah. I achieved this, but dude, I'm still suffering too. You know? Yeah. What is the thing about yeah yes that creates this makes it stick around it totally persists because there's enough shit out there now that you could completely bypass that if you really wanted to yes

yes you know okay a couple things I think this is really exciting like part of the conversation so I'm sorry that it took us a half hour to get to that question. You can edit out everything before now. Welcome! We're coming to you from the CrossFit Games in Madison, Wisconsin. This is Karen Miller. I'm here with Michael and Jeff.

You need your own podcast. No doubt. Not a risk. It was so on time. He caught me. He didn't have to buy me a drink and I got that. I came there. That's where you're at.

It's work. It was part of my plan. No, this is totally a thing. We get teased for saying that all the time. We're like, this is a thing. I'm counting. We've said it 57 times so far. Oh, shit. Okay. Ring a bell every time I say it. No. all the time but like this is a thing uh i'm counting we've said it 57 times so far oh shit

okay ring a bell every time i say it no um so there's one concept that i'll offer you and that will sound kind of academic and then the other one's not gonna at all so the first one that's helpful for me is this french word called jouissance and you can put it in the like notes or whatever because i don't want to try to spell it right now I'm gonna have to google it just to make sure I do it right but uh but it's the concept of uh like really enjoying something or like feeling the ecstasy of something and um and that psychologists recognize that there's a tendency to have this sort of sick form of jouissance about suffering. And that as long as we have this sick enjoyment of the suffering, like, my precious suffering, it makes it all worth it.

Or it makes me somehow, I'm one of you or something like that um that we never have to actually change break that like really claim our own enjoyment and our own like ecstasy and because those are dangerous states to be in and people who live in states of ecstasy and enjoyment and um like even their suffering like they can contain because of the joy or the celebration that they have in their life they're like fucking crazy artist people they're people like you know performance artists stuff right and you know we look at them and we're like wow they just have a whole nother thing going on or like you know I don't know we make we make judgments about people like that who live in

ecstatic circumstances or seek ecstasy through you know different methods and that basically holds us back it just it are clinging to the suffering holds us back and

it's not helpful it is kind of sick and um but it keeps our stories in place and it protects us from having to make our old story bad and uh judge our sort of old self so you know that the opportunity is you've grown into something, like you've achieved something or you've grown up in some regard. And and like you should feel bad about that a little bit. Like, don't be too, you know, don't enjoy that too much. I don't I mean, I'm not totally sure where that comes from, but it does protect from a full living into the new me. And I think it's because the old me is threatened. The old me feels small when I do that and feels judged.

And so we talk about it in developmental language as transcend and include, right? So that you're not just skipping into this new thing like I was that, but that is bad now and I'm a new better thing. It's like, yes, like I'm that old thing and I'm the new thing. So, you know, I'm still I'm still each of those things that got me there, you know, I'm still, I'm still each of those things that got me there, you know? And, um, and so, so there's, there's those two parts of that is the inability to say what I went through is, is good and it's okay, but also I can like be beyond that. Um, and that, um, you know, I'm not gonna lose credibility or I'm not gonna like come off the ground or something, you know, I'm not going to lose credibility or I'm not going to like come off the ground or something. You know, if I say like I'm growing and I'm getting bigger and I'm taking up more space, that that's okay to do.

There's definitely like a pressure to like be small in the world. And it shows up in like really weird ways like oops sorry oops excuse me sorry like people like on airplane i'm on airplane a lot you know or people in line like oh sorry i didn't i didn't mean to oops excuse me like it's like you know what you just are the shape that you are you know like you just gotta be in the space you know and like when people give presentations i'll sometimes coach them and it's like people are really reluctant to be in the space, you know? And like when people give presentations, I'll sometimes coach them. And it's like people are really reluctant to be big. Yeah.

And to take up their full space. And, you know, there's something scary about that, about saying like, I'm here and I'm here to say something. Also, I'm flawed and I'm afraid that all of you are going to figure that out or that somehow like I'm not what I say I am. And so I'm going to spend a lot of energy becoming small and making sure that I'm like super protected before I ever risk anything. That's old survival stuff. That's old evolution stuff when we actually did need that to survive. Like you needed to be small on the like terrain because you don't want a lion

to see you and mistake you for like a gazelle. Cause you can't run as fast as a gazelle and like you're sunk. So we don't need those survival techniques anymore. So we like make the psychological equivalent, like lions are hunting me and I can't be me. I'm in survival mode. So telling yourself like I'm already survival mode. So telling yourself, like, I'm already surviving here. My biological needs are met.

I am not in danger. What I'm really in danger from is my story limiting me. And what I really want to go get to make my life meaningful, I'm going to be the one that will prevent myself from getting it. That's not motivational talk. That's a psychological resistance to doing it because it requires something of you. It requires you to take up space. It requires you to say what you need.

It requires you to say, I want to be loved and I want to be meaningful and I want to have an impact and I want to be okay about that. We know that that's what humans want. We want to feel worthy and remembered. And how do we normalize that and figure out a way to get that with humility and to make that thing connect us to each other? Yeah. So, yeah, I think the suffering is like if it's useful to take you somewhere like that increases connection or to pull you out for a while.

I mean, you know, a part of my story is I'm a cancer survivor and I had to be in isolation because I was, you know, I had radiation and like a bunch of stuff well you know that was a place of suffering for me and i have had to figure out how to use that suffering and like learn from it and have it draw me towards people um rather than having it continue to exist in the same way i had to like figure out how to transform that thing and um not ignore it or get past it right like i have that right now right now i have the suffering of being isolated or being in the dark or you don't know if you're gonna you know how what who holds your life you know like i have that that's in me um so i don't need to get rid of that but like i have grown above that like not above it i've grown beyond that or like i've grown around that yeah is a better way to say it

yeah so i've grown around it and we each have like pieces of these things so your suffering is great it's like a very useful softener and toughener and like all those things um as long as we're willing to like grow around it not disown it or really celebrate it and let it become our banner of connection we just have so many other forms of connection yeah than suffering like now all of that to say i see suffering in the world and I see power used in ways that perpetuate suffering, and that's very real. And as far as it depends on me, with my power in the world, and the way that I parent my children, and in my neighborhood, and the place that I go and speak, and the role I have in my community, I stand against that. Like, I'm fighting suffering on that kind of a scale. But this kind of suffering that you're talking about

is of a totally different quality. It's like made up suffering or something. It's like, oh, it's my justification. Yes. OK, so I just talked for a long ass time. Like, what? You got me on a thing. I'm like, whoa.

Yeah. But I mean, whoa. Yeah. But I mean, the suffering that you're combating in the world versus the self-imposed, the chosen suffering that people place upon themselves, it, in my mind's eye, suffocates the growth that you're actually looking for, right? While you're seeking a better story, because maybe you come from privilege and the struggle wasn't as real, you know? I saw it in a lot of football teams I played for, in that you have the kid who's hungry, comes from nothing, and needs to go to the league to

get out of where he came from right and then you got the kid who's of who's cut from the the uh who's the the white kid from stanford who plays running back for carolina now mcafree right dad played in the pros mom was was a D1 athlete. Had everything. Oh, and I'm at Stanford. The path is driven. There are kids like that who come from legacy who sabotage that shit.

To what end? Because you're competing for the same position for this kid who's has more motivation just not that he has more it's just different you know are you saying that you don't want to go to the nfl because if you already identified that that's a totally different thing but it has that it's completely something that athletes definitely have like my experience in coaching elite athletes which i do that some of that um is their you know difficulty around identity and when their physical performance changes you know how that what happens to their identity in that and that their physical suffering to be the the athlete or the elite performer um like they have to come up with a substitute for

that thing um because that is the mantra of athletics is like you got to earn it like no pain no gain like push it to the max and all this stuff like um and so how do i do that you know in this other life um is a really like sort of unfair setup yeah and um and so yeah i think people people like you're describing um you know might also you know feel like hey you don't know what it took to get here. Now I've got to make something up. I think that's what you're going to do. You think I just got given this? No.

I really suffered. It's my ticket. But at the risk of sounding like a broken record, suffering is not a very valuable ticket. It's not the kind of connection, the kind of currency that that is. Like when I give you that and like what you give me back for that, like the exchange rate is just low. Right. Like it doesn't connect us. Like who do you feel like?

Yeah, we're really about the struggle, you know, like we're like so much intimacy in the struggle. It's like, it doesn't feel like that. It actually feels like it excuses you from doing something a real like connecting in a real way like who i want to be or who i need to be or

something you know yeah i think that that brings us back to the the exercise that we started with in that that yucky dialogue yeah that that narrative is constructed in such a way that nobody would hold you at fault for failing. Exactly. Yep. Right. Yes. Is that how it goes? Yes.

Okay. Nobody would blame you because so much is against you. Like, of course your story is of struggle and like everything's against you, you know? So it gives us the out. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And it excuses us from a life that is like where everything's waiting for us. Like all the connection is there. And oftentimes when people like come up against that experience or that realization, they like they cry.

And that I mean, you said that to me earlier, you know, like, I feel like I was about to cry and I'm like, who is this person? You know, like, and I'm about to cry and this is just an exercise and like, what's going on, you know? And I really think that like that, the physical act of like crying in that setting is like a relief. Oh, for sure. A total relief. Like, whoa, someone is going to let me lay this struggle down of managing who I am in the world and who I have to be, who I want to be, or against who I don't want to be, who I cannot be. They're actually going to let me discover what is me and what my offering is and what

the level of connection is that's possible um because there's so many layers of like connection possible like i think it's like our only hope of like figuring out how we solve like really gnarly problems that are like ingrained and just like imprinted now you know in all of our societies it's like how do we figure out how to like reconnect with one another that is not a silly like ideal type pursuit like that's a very real thing yeah if you can find the level of connection that's meaningful that's risky that moves the needle that gives you the opportunity to make the changes that you need to make for your community or enables you to get sturdy enough so that people can push against you and make the changes that they need to make right like that's a real thing that's an impact and we can like map that shit right um and you know so as a developmentalist i know like the waterline on what we're able to

think and do and how much complexity we can realize how much connectedness we can understand you know like as that waterline rises like all boats rise you know like the whole thing goes with that and so you know like pushing the tide is a worthwhile endeavor because everyone benefits from it yeah that's amazing at this point of where you stand in your life currently how would you define your life's purpose as you see it right now? I think my life's purpose is to be on purpose and that that covers all of the achievements or all the like pursuits, the small things. Um, um, and I think being on purpose for me is a really, um, it's a like state of being.

So I want to be as on purpose, more of the time, in real time as possible. So I pull up and out of that space, you know, with differing rhythms. And so I'm in pursuit of the processes and the practices and the disciplines, physical disciplines and mental disciplines, spiritual disciplines and disciplines of relationship that get me closer to that

so that I can say more and more, I am on purpose, I'm speaking on purpose, I'm parenting on purpose, that kind of thing. And as far as the expression of that in the world um it's to be a companion to people who are discovering how to do that um the way that i like market that is as being a coach it's been as being a professor it's been as being a consultant. It's been as being a consultant. These are words

that people understand. And those are the credentials that earn me the right to be heard. Once I show up and they trust my credentials and they see that I'm on purpose and that I'm trustworthy to be a companion for them to risk actually developing or going against the patterns that they see in the world. Um, then my distinction is that I get to be a lot of fun. So like this podcast and a lot of my podcasts end up taking me to a really serious place because we're talking about really meaningful things. Um, but I think my distinction is that I am really like fun and like a little bit offbeat and, um, that I am pretty casual and, um, yeah, that I have an ability to,

you know, you called it empathy, but I think it's an ability to connect with people. And, um, part of that is physical and part of that is spiritual that like i um i know the power of my gaze and i know the power of like physically like turning my heart towards you or towards you um and i know like you know this maybe this gets into some other podcasts but like i know the power of like my beauty and of my gender and um and of my privilege and um and of my like spiritual gifts and so um those aren't esoteric things to me those are like very real things that's how i touch the world and that's how like people touch me so um yeah so that's that's my expression of it in the world.

Love that. So before we let you get out of here today. No, I really do need a drink. Let you off the hook. Were you expecting to get this deep? Yes, I live here. Oh, beautiful. I mean, I was hoping that you would, right?

I told you that before here. Don't ask me the other question. Ask me the question, you know? Like, yeah. So I have two more the questions for you. Yeah, okay. But they're about you. They're not out here in the ether.

Okay. Answer them on any level, mental, physical, spiritual. Okay. Whatever touches you right now. Yes. The first of which, and I'll ask them in succession and then you can answer. Okay. The first of which, what do you do each and every day to feed yourself and allow you the energy to do what you do and

do it well and the follow-on to that is what do you do each and every day to fuel yourself and make sure that that momentum sustainable over long over the long term title of the podcast. We're going to bring it up. Nobody gets that. She killed it. It's right there. Right there.

Hiding in plain sight. I don't know how the elephant fits, but I'll figure it out. I'll explain it over beer. Right? Okay, yes. Okay, bourbon. Okay. So what I do every day to feed myself.

Yes? The more physical answer is I do think about what I feed myself. I do think about what I eat and what I drink. And sometimes people ask me about that because it's sort of like an easier technical thing to talk about, especially people in your industry. Like, so what are you like keto or what? You know? And, um, and so, yeah, like I drink bulletproof coffee and I actually really like believe in the neuroscience between, you know, behind the thing and that, whatever. Yes. So I'm paying attention to what I feed my body and how my brain works and how fast I am and those kinds of things. I'm not an elite performance athlete, but

I do try to pay attention to my body and that's a discipline. So I do things like scan my body in the morning and I scan it in the evening to figure out what's going on and where am I and what's wonky and what feels really good and what can I celebrate and all those things um spiritually I do something similar and in some traditions they call it the examine uh which is in the morning um I think about, you know, what times of the day I will feel near to like spirit or source. And they call that consolation. So where will I feel consoled by my closeness or nearness to my purpose or source or God, you know, to the spirit that really like breathes in me. And at the end of the day asking myself like where was i far from

that and they call that desolation where like it was pretty desolate like i was at a place of low fuel and feeding and um distance from spirit from source uh from the groundwater and um so the consolation desolation, like nearness or distance, farness, that's a spiritual discipline that I try to do as often as possible. As far as my intellectual pursuits, the way that I feed my intellect or my intelligence, my logic, is I am a voracious reader. I know old people who read, like, they're just different kinds of people and who read things that they don't already agree with. They're, like, a different sort of person, and I love them. So it's my aspiration to be an old person who reads things that they don't agree with. So I'm starting now. I read just basically everything. And I'm actually reading a book right now. Maybe

I'll show it to you because it's sort of like what I stand for and I'd never heard of it before. And I just was in Maine at this random old bookstore. What have you changed your mind about? It's a collection of people who have like, have super expertise in their thing. Uh, and somehow they figured out a way to change their mind about it. Something fundamental to who they are, to what they've built,

what they've achieved. Yeah. So it's basically like, how do you like break your frame or hack yourself? I want to do that all the time. So, um, I'm always reading. And in relationships,

I try to be as transparent about what I need or what I'm afraid of or what I feel like is at stake as possible. And I'm not very good at this. So I want to feel more nourishment from the relationships that I'm in. I'm really good at nourishing relationships, and I'm not very good at receiving nourishment or asking for nourishment the way that I need it or want it.

I have a really, really deep desire for that, for the intimacy of that. But like on my, you know, map of my improvement goal thing, I do a lot of things like to subvert this desire. So that's my thing on that. And then what do I do to fuel my, what was the second part? Sustainable energy.

Okay, sustainable energy. Ooh, that's, I protect my sleep. That's an important one. I've been through a season of parenting where, like, you can't do that. And I'm into a season of parenting now. You'll get there at some point. I promise. It's coming for you where you can't do that and I'm into a season of parenting now you'll get there at some point I promise it's coming for you where you can protect your sleep you know and um I do that for my children to protect their sleep I protect my sleep I know what it does for your brain and for

uh how much is going on in you in the night and so um that would be my more technical answer. But, yeah, to fuel, say it again. What do you do to fuel yourself to create this sustainable energy? Sustainable energy, okay, yes. Over the long term. I mean, this is an interesting question for me because I don't think I've thought of that as well as I have needed to. I mean, I haven't needed to until now-ish. So I turned 40 this year and it's given me this whole other understanding of, wow, I have to actually conserve some of this.

Because I can't just run it out. So that's true spiritually and physically. The boundaries thing that I talked towards you about is part of this. And also opening up those boundaries is another way so i talk a lot about how much energy can you like elicit from the people that you work with and how much energy are you gonna carry the whole thing and that's a really hard balance to strike but like people are available to energize you in a lot of different ways. So you saw me, you know, in a seminar setting. And, you know, I'm there, like, as the coach or as a subject matter expert.

And, you know, you and I got into it. Like, but there's other things going on there, right? And I'm like, yeah, you're right. There's a lot of other things going on there. Like, I'm sitting in there holding the room. I'm sitting in there holding the room. I'm sitting in there reading the dynamic. I'm sitting in there watching Logan and like pushing, pushing energy towards him or staying in his head or, you know, whatever. that's going on at once is a deep well of energy that most people are not using. Same is true for any physical coach, right? Like if you stand up there and you're like, this whole thing is on me, right?

Like you will burn out. So you got to figure out that like, you've got people here who are full of energy. How do you enlist them and enroll them and invite them to own this thing and this goes all the way back to that academic thing which is in my classroom you know like we're going to build the syllabus together because if we do that like you are way more likely to learn better author your way through it own the thing and so um you know if my children help cook the dinner like they just eat it. Like, it's so interesting because like they have an investment in it and they think it's

cool and they want to like do, you know, own it. Um, so that's true about sort of all work, whether it's in a CrossFit seminar like we had, or whether it's in a professional training setting or a coaching setting like i'm not doing something to you like we're doing this thing and so the energy is going to come both ways and i need you i need you to like fuel that um we'll go way different places if you're here with me and um so i i'm learning that like i need that as fuel and i can claim that and and some people don't want to do that some people really do need like i'm ready for answers i'm ready for direction and ready for prescription um that's everywhere you can get that on the internet there's lots of coaches that will give you that they'll just sit you down and they will just school you.

The technical. Totally. The technical. If you want to go into adaptation mode or if you want to understand how your brain really works, if you want to understand neuroplasticity and you want to understand how to build that shit, then we are going to have a conversation because I'm going to tell you what to eat in order to achieve that. I'm going to tell you how to think in order to achieve that. I'm going to tell you who you need to enlist and get around you in order to achieve that. I'm going to tell you how to think in order to achieve that. I'm going to tell you who you need to enlist and get around you in order to achieve that. I'm going to tell you about the darkness that's

going to come and the developmental depression that's going to come when you realize that that life is over and you experience small death. And you have to figure out how to grieve that and turn around and go again, die to live another day. It's not a Jean-Claude Van Damme thing, but that's a reality. And so that's where I'm working. And I think the more that I realize that I haven't been accessible to the world

and that it's sort of on me to figure out how to open up and like get out there um you know writing a book or creating a podcast i mean you just said that right here right um or you know writing some of the making things available making myself available this is part of it sure that that will be really great fuel for me. But I haven't yet known how to do that. Got it. And where can everybody in this community go follow you and support you, both personally and professionally? I'm on Instagram at developmentalcoach.

And I'm in the process of changing my website in order to reflect these changes in awareness and values around me. So I'm creating a website that removes obstacles and removes stereotypes, starts to break them down, and makes my perspective more accessible and makes me as a person more accessible. Um, because I think that's, that's what's being called forth from me. So I'm working hard on that.

Um, that website right now is inquiry p.com. My company is called inquiry partners. Um, I'm really focused on the inquiry pursuit. I'm curious. I'm questioning constantly and and I invite my clients and my friends and my students to that pursuit and that's where the partnership

comes from so I'm all about inquiry and I want to do that in partnership so brand people tell me I should call myself the brain hacker. Right. But now you know why I don't want that title. Yeah. The title I want is inquiry partner. Like we're in the pursuit here. Like inquiry is an ongoing thing. It's a, it's a practice.

It's a value. And that we're partners in the thing. Like we need each other in the thing. And that's how we're going to get the things we want, which is intimacy, meaning, connection, impact,

power. And that it's all like vulnerability, humility, all the things we want, which is intimacy, meaning, connection, impact, power, and that it's all like vulnerability, humility, all the things we say and we don't know what they feel like or they taste like. Yeah. That's the pursuit. So inquiry partners at inquiry, it's inquiryp.com and at developmental coach is the role that I associate myself with most. Cool.

Love it. Cool. Yep. Well, everybody out there in Feed Me, Fuel Me land, make sure you hop online and check out Inquiry Partners and at Developmental Coach. Follow everything that Coach Kara is up to. And we really appreciate you sharing your space with us and being so authentic in such impromptu fashion.

I know that you've got a lot going on. You got here for different reasons, but now you're here with us sharing. And it really means a lot. So thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And until next time, guys, feed me, fuel me.

And that'll do it for this episode with our special guest, Dr. Cara Miller. If you want to check out everything that Dr. Cara has going on, please go to the full show notes on shrugcollective.com. Also, be sure to connect with us on social media, including Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Feed Me, Fuel Me. We would love to hear from each and every one of you. If you found this episode inspiring in any way, please leave a rating and a comment in iTunes

so we can continue on this journey together. Also, be sure to share with your friends and family on social media, including Facebook, Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter, or any other social platforms that you use. We really appreciate you spending your time with us today and allowing us to join you on your journey. We would love to hear your feedback on this episode

as well as guests and topics for future episodes. To end this episode, we would love to leave you with a quote from Ernest Hemingway. Live the full life of the mind, exhilarated by new ideas, intoxicated by the romance of the unusual. Thank you again for joining us

and we'll catch you on the next episode. you