Barbell Shrugged - How a recovering perfectionist can find health and balance (and still be fit af) with Jill Coleman — Muscle Maven Radio Episode #18

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome, everyone, to Muscle Maven Radio. I'm your host, Ashley Van Houten, and my guest today is Jill Coleman, who you are probably already familiar with. I'm a big fan of Jill because in a world of fitness influencers and coaches and trainers and sort of online fitness people, she is doing her best to be an authentic, honest voice by sharing her very personal struggles as well as her successes. And to me, I appreciate that she is just human, right? Like she wants to be cute and fit and healthy and happy and have a good time just like the rest of us. But she's also willing to share the darkness that she's been through and the

Starting point is 00:00:56 struggles that she's had to go through to get to where she is today. So I appreciate that because I think it does take a lot of courage to do that. And Jill's had a long and successful background in fitness competitions, fitness modeling. She's been featured in magazines from women's health to shape and self and so on. And she started her own coaching brand, which you can learn more about at jillfit.com. But her real story is about her experiences, which are very common, I think, and probably some of you listeners can relate to this about cycling through crazy diets and exercise and shame and self-loathing that is so common to people in the fitness industry, people who are into competitive bodybuilding or fitness, and even people who aren't right.

Starting point is 00:01:42 Like even people who are just into health and wellness and really aim for perfection. They want to look perfect. They want to never mess up. They want to never take a day off. And we spend all this time on social media looking at other people who seem like they're perfect. And it can really start a very dysfunctional cycle. And she has struggled with that herself. And she shares her story about getting out of that cycle while still being a part of the fitness and health industry, which while it is full of smart people and inspiration and resources, it is also very image obsessed and often fake. And we need to know how to navigate that. So she talks about that. She talks about challenges in her personal life, her marriage and relationships, how her approach to work has changed,

Starting point is 00:02:31 and a ton more. And I can relate to certain parts of her story for sure. And I think most of us can relate to how hard it is to find balance, even understanding what that word means. If you're a type A person, if you're an ambitious person, someone who wants to accomplish a lot and constantly better themselves, and that's okay, that's great. But it can seem kind of like a defeating thing to place an emphasis on finding balance or not trying to be perfect all the time. It can seem like it's really hard to find a middle ground between challenging yourself, constantly aiming for bigger and better things, but not letting it get to a point where

Starting point is 00:03:11 it's hurting you more than helping you. And it's really hard to see that distinction when you're in the middle of it, when you're training for something really intensely, or when you're burning the candle at both ends to succeed at something, it's really hard to determine the difference between dysfunction or something that's problematic and just working really hard, right? It's a really fine line to walk, which is why I think so many of us struggle with it. And so anyway, Jill offers her experiences, her life lessons, in the hope that we can hear some of it ourselves and maybe apply some of it to our own experiences and, um, and learn a little something. So I do hope that you find it helpful. Um, and I thank Jill again for taking the time to chat with me, but before I let Jill school us all on how to be awesome, I have to tell you, I have a new show sponsor for muscle Maven radio, and I could not

Starting point is 00:04:01 be more excited because they are one of my favorite companies on the planet. I really mean this. I have known the founders of beekeepers naturals for years now. I've been a fan of theirs since they came into existence and I couldn't be happier that they're partnering with muscle Maven radio. So if you're not familiar with beekeepers naturals, they're a wellness company. They make honey, honey based products, healing products like healing products like antibacterial throat spray and nootropics and all kinds of other products that help us stay healthy naturally. And they also have a strong emphasis on supporting sustainable honey harvesting, saving the bees, supporting local hives. It's a really, really big part of what they do. So if you want to learn more about that, you can go to beekeepersnaturals.com and find out how they're doing that. I have a few

Starting point is 00:04:50 products of theirs that I am truly obsessed with and I'll get to it. But I think that one product that you guys, my listeners might be really interested in is their propolis throat spray. So they call it nature's antibiotic because B propolis, which is essentially just another B like a by-product, same as honey, just a product that they make as they go about their lives and building their homes. Uh, propolis contains more than 300 vitamins, minerals. It has antibacterial product properties that help you fight off colds and gross germs. It's literally just a spray of propolis you put in your mouth, kind of tastes like honey, and you can use it proactively. Like when you are starting to feel

Starting point is 00:05:29 a little itch in your throat, or maybe, you know, you're traveling a lot, you're working hard, you're not sleeping a lot, just kind of like as an extra precaution. And I'll tell you the first time I came across this product, they were exhibiting at a big health conference in Austin that I was going to, and a bunch of the speakers and big names that were there, they were exhibiting at a big health conference in Austin that I was going to. And a bunch of the speakers and big names that were there, they were complaining about losing their voices because they were talking so much and feeling run down from travel. And they're shaking a million people's hands and they're covered in germs and they feel gross. So beekeepers, they gave out their spray to these, these folks. And I remember them coming back like freaking out because their voice was

Starting point is 00:06:05 back. They felt better. Their throat wasn't sore. They were saying it was like a miracle. So I got a bunch of these sprays, took them home with me, sprayed it in my mouth a billion times on the plane to see if I could keep from getting sick because I literally always get sick and feel like garbage when I fly. And it worked guys. Like I, I gotta tell you, maybe there's a reason why this stuff has been used naturally forever, um, to keep people from getting sick and to ward off sore throats because it is legit and it's absolutely worth trying for the price. And you can, you can actually get a discount. If you head to beekeepers, naturals.com forward slash muscle Maven, and I'll put that in the show notes, or you can just use the code muscle Maven when you buy and you'll get a 15% discount. And they have a ton of other products,

Starting point is 00:06:49 which I will tell you about over the course of this sponsorship. But I just thought that would be a good starting point because it's so legit. The product's great. Um, and if you've tried it already, or if you're familiar with the company already, let me know, message me on Instagram. My, uh, handle is The Muscle Maven because I want to hear about people's experiences with these products. All right, that's enough ranting. I love beekeepers. I love those guys. They've always supported me and I want to do what I can for them too. So head to their website, learn more about them. And now let's go learn how to sort out our bullshit from Jill Coleman. Jill, welcome to the

Starting point is 00:07:27 podcast. Thank you for being here. Oh my gosh, thanks for having me. This is an honor. I'm so excited. It's been we've we've only met in person, which was now I guess a little more than a year ago, because I moderated a panel that you were on at Paleo FX. Yeah. And unfortunately, as I was saying offline, you're on the sunnier part of the country where I am on the currently cold and rainy part of the country. So we're going to have to do this over the computer, but it's better than nothing because I want to pick your brain on a bunch of things. So thank you for taking the time and letting me do that. Yeah, my pleasure. For sure. Anytime you're in LA, we need to do maybe a part two or go train at the Mac or do something

Starting point is 00:08:03 fun. I would love that. And I, there are so many reasons why I need to go over to LA and I just keep, I'm so lazy. It's something about that cross country, you know, like the whole New York to LA thing. I mean, I know a lot of people do it and then they do it a lot and I don't know how personally. Do you travel a lot? I do. Yeah. I mean, I'm traveling a little bit less recently, but yeah, I was on like, I was pretty much on the go for like three years straight, just doing a lot of conferences and teaching and just really kind of escaping my marriage and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Well, I guess there's definitely more to it. It wasn't all, I guess, just like positive,

Starting point is 00:08:38 like, yeah, I just love to travel. It was like, please get me out of here. And also I'm going to go do some work. Yeah. Do you, do you like that kind of like always on the go kind of moving around stuff? Like, would you be happier if you didn't travel all the time or do you like that? You know, I have such a regular, like, uh, consistent, like home life in terms of like, when I do things and how scheduled I am that I do get fancy. I like experiences. I like, you know, obviously, you know, I work full time online. So it's, it's to me more fun to be able to go and we do. So I have a podcast as well. It's called the best life podcast. My cohost is Danny J. And we do all of our interviews in person, which has made things really tough because sometimes people just aren't, you know, around or

Starting point is 00:09:20 people you really want to talk to, like can't make it. So we, but we really love the dynamic of in-person interviews. And so being in LA, like there's always people here. She lives in Las Vegas. So there's always like conferences and things going on there. So, um, yeah, I do get antsy if I'm not like having experience. Plus I'm really close to my family and my family lives all over the place. So on the weekend I was in Austin for a week and I love Austin. I think like, well, the last time I was there was when I met you at paleo effects, but, um, my brother and his girlfriend lived there and I was speaking at a conference there. So I was like, cool, I'll just come and stay for the whole week and get to spend family time with them too. So yeah, I definitely crave if I, if I'm home for

Starting point is 00:09:56 like more than a month, I gotta go. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I can relate to that, but I'm also one of those people, like I love to travel, but then like inevitably, at some point during the travel, I'm like, why? Why am I doing this all the time? But I guess, you know, the more you do it, the better you get at it. And I kind of feel like maybe this is just sort of my personality, but I kind of feel like with work, or fitness or whatever kind of challenge you have going on in your life, if you aren't at least semi regularly asking, like, what have I gotten myself into? Like, maybe you're not having enough adventure. Like, I don't know, it's just kind of been my sort of personal experience. Like, if I'm not kind of questioning it, I'm like, maybe I'm not doing

Starting point is 00:10:33 much. Yeah, I mean, there is and there's partly and I hate to like, say this, but it is like, partially about, you know, if you do have an online personal brand, like I have, which is, you know, people hire me, they don't necessarily like, you know, I don't have better information than anyone else. It's just more like they connect me on a personal level. You know, I do need to be on some level living a lifestyle. A lot of my clients want to live, they do want to travel, they do want to be able to work from their laptop. And I don't glamorize it. Like I'm not like on the beaches of, you know, Hawaii, like showing my laptop lifestyle. But you know, I like connecting with people in person. I think that we're seeing a lot. I do a lot of online business coaching for fitness pros.

Starting point is 00:11:08 And so now I think is a return to a lot of live events. I think people are really craving FaceTime. I think people, it's a 1% or action. Like not a lot of people actually go to live events like paleo FX or something like that, because it's a lot of money and it's a lot of invested and you've got to take time away from your family and you know get care for the kids and you know if you're a personal trainer you lose that on money if you're not there claiming your client so um i do think that we are now really experiencing people wanting to connect face to face and in real life and so i i'm liking that like kind of return to less online or at least in addition to online in-person FaceTime. Yes, I completely agree with you.

Starting point is 00:11:49 I 100% what you're saying. I have kind of taken that to heart with the work that I'm doing too. And I can mention this because it's a little bit of talking about myself, but it's very applicable to what we're talking about is I felt the same way being like a podcast host, being a health and fitness writer and just an enthusiast and being very involved in this world that so many of us, we do have a strong desire, obviously, to connect. We spend a lot of time on social media and we're following all the smart people and we're listening to what they're saying. And we're listening and sharing like a million podcasts a day. And we're reading all these books, but we

Starting point is 00:12:23 aren't necessarily meeting in person to have conversations and learn from people in real time. And, and like you said, things like paleo effects are things that are going on in different parts of the world, it's such a, there's such a high barrier to entry, because people have to take time off work, and they have to spend hundreds of dollars and go to these things. And also, as you know, there, there's a strong need for events and expos, and there's lots that can be learned and gained from those things. But in some cases, it's an element of like a bit of quantity over quality, right? Like people go and like there's a million people and they don't really get a chance

Starting point is 00:12:54 to have that kind of real connection that they want to because it's overwhelming and there's so much going on. And I've kind of taken that to heart by creating, I have this like sort of little networking education series that I've developed over the last year. I've had one event in New York and I'm having one in Toronto here in a couple of weeks called Human Potential Party. And it's just literally like 50 to 60 people getting together. There's a speaker or a panel of speakers.

Starting point is 00:13:17 There's some free healthy food. And it's literally just like health nerds. You want to get together and actually talk in real life instead of over the internet? Let's do this. And yeah, it's like, it's cheap. It's easy. It's in the city that you're living in already. And it's just, you know, and I'm an introvert too. So I have to make myself do this, but I always feel better when I do. So it's like that little bit of extra effort and you get so much out of it. Yeah. I think that we're craving that to be honest. Like I think, you know, any way that you can, and we do like, if I'm, if I'm traveling for a conference, like we'll just

Starting point is 00:13:44 do a meetup, like a free meetup at like a local or people come to LA and they're like, Hey, I'd love to take you out for coffee. I can't always do that kind of stuff, but I will always be like, Hey, I'm going to be working out at Gold's Jam, like come and let's work out together. And to me, I love that kind of connection. And I don't think as someone who does own an online business is important that I do have that extra connection or go the, yeah, I'm an introvert too. And I, for the most part, I'm pretty much a hermit, but I do enjoy being social. I do like an adult beverage. I do like talking, you know,

Starting point is 00:14:13 and I like having deeper conversations. And I think a lot of my clients don't always get that in the area that they're living in because they just are trying to do online entrepreneurial stuff and the people around them don't really understand what they're doing. They're not making money yet. And so for them, I've really facilitated this the last three years by putting together a mastermind. And like we're now seeing like masterminds and mentorships, like kind of popping up and gaining more popularity, these for pay masterminds, but even just doing free ones. I have like a group of entrepreneur friends or females that live in LA that we just get together like once a month and it's just, we talk shop and

Starting point is 00:14:43 whatever happens, happens. Yeah. That's so great. There's just, there's just like more kind of idea sharing and like things that are going to come up when you're in person. There's something that no, no amount of like social media or digital technology is going to replace what can happen when you actually get people together. And as you said, maybe with an adult beverage or two to kind of grease the wheels a little bit. I guess so. I don't know. Yeah, that's cool. So do you, I know that you coach sort of in a lot of cases, you coach coaches and you coach people who are trying to develop their own fitness and coaching business. But do you also still, do you coach people who are just trying to be sort of healthier and fitter for

Starting point is 00:15:23 themselves that are not actually trying to sort of make a business or a life out of it? At this point, I'm not doing any of that. That's how I started. So Jill can start in 2010. And I was doing just all one-off meal plans. So people would come to me. They wanted a lot of times to get up on stage. I was training a lot of figure competitors, bikini competitors at that time.

Starting point is 00:15:41 I was because I had just come off like maybe six or seven years of doing that. And so I was doing a lot of like meal plans and food lists and stuff like that. And I had this moment in maybe like 18 months into it and Jill fit did really well early on. And, um, but 18 months in, I was like, you know what, these people are becoming more neurotic. And I felt as though I was contributing to like the obsessive, like kind of neuroses of that can be in nutrition, like high level nutrition, advanced extreme nutrition. And so I had this moment where I was like, my clients can't even go to the grocery store without texting me 10 times, like that's a problem. And so at that point, we kind of started changing what we were teaching. And we developed a common like a

Starting point is 00:16:17 curriculum around moderation 365, and kind of learning how to eat healthy forever, and not be in these extremes and not do this kind of yo-yo dieting that I had been previously doing. And at that point, I want Jill Fit had grown the platform and grown. And I really wanted to figure out a way to create a course that a lot of people could consume at a lower ticket price point. Cause at that point we were charging like two 50, $300 a month. And so we went into more course based stuff. So still, I would say a third of my income and revenue at Jill Fit is still through direct to consumer fitness and nutrition programs. People who just want workouts, they want, you know, a lot of my clients are, I would say like 35 to 55. A lot of them are moms,

Starting point is 00:16:56 super busy schedules, professionals, like, but want to have something that's effective. And so I do a lot of fitness programs for them. And then they have a nutrition course. That's not about like how to get lean or anything like that. It's actually a nutrition psychology course. And that's a DIY as well. So I do anything, anytime I'm doing like FaceTime with a client, it's mostly business at this point. Okay, got it. All right.

Starting point is 00:17:15 So I'm going to start with a really big question here. And we can kind of like drill down as we go. But we've we had some of this conversation at the panel that we met, because we both have a background in competitive figure fitness, bodybuilding and stuff like that. So we were talking a little bit about that the dysfunctional aspect of that. And you just touched on how people can get really super neurotic about it. And not even people who are competing, just people in general who are trying to focus on their eating and trying to look better. And again, that kind of contributes to the social media aspect where everyone's looking at everybody else and thinks everyone

Starting point is 00:17:47 has a six pack. Why don't I like it's the whole thing. We know this is a big part of the fitness industry. How does someone like you and not even speaking to your clients, your fitness professional clients that you're working with, but someone like you, who is a face in this industry and whose job you're, you're trying to create a stress and shame free environment for people to be healthy and like enjoy their food and not be neurotic about it and love their bodies and be healthy. How can you kind of live this world and be enmeshed in it all day, every day, and yet somehow not let it be an obsession? Like how, how do you do it? Yeah. I mean, I really do believe that on some level, most of us need to go to extremes in order to find the middle. So the answer to that question is,

Starting point is 00:18:38 you know, 10 years ago, I wouldn't have been able to answer that question. I mean, I would have been like, I am in it. I'm caught up in it. So for example, like I had mentioned earlier, I go to Gold's gym in Venice, which is the mecca of bodybuilding. And for me, it's there, I can see people are getting up on stage like every week at that gym. They're just like extremely fit, extremely lean, extremely muscular. And now at this point, I can look at someone who's in that space, who's getting ready to get up on stage, or even someone who's doing extreme dieting, doesn't have to be for a competition. And really just appreciate the hard work that goes into it and look at that person and realize they have a beautiful physique and understand all the sacrifice that it takes to achieve that aesthetic. While at the same time, having the realization that I don't want that lifestyle.

Starting point is 00:19:22 And so I think that was a huge 180 from the fact that like, I remember just feeling so comparing myself. We talked about the comparison trap, like a lot at Jill Fit. And really, I remember when I wasn't in show shape, looking at other people who were getting in shape or people on the internet who were look super shredded and they were getting up on stage whenever.

Starting point is 00:19:40 And somehow that made me feel like I was fatter, even though I was like, you know what I mean? So it's like someone else, very like uh like a zero-sum game and now I can see that it's just a lifestyle that I don't want to choose for myself because I've already lived that and I know the kind of the kind of shame and guilt and um misery that I was feeling in those moments and of course there were bright spots right you get up on stage you feel like a million bucks you feel like you have your friends and your family and you did all this hard work to get there.

Starting point is 00:20:06 So there's something that is affirming about that, having that experience. But all in all, if I had to summarize, it's just like, I don't want to do that. So I realized that it's a lot of trade-offs. I don't get to do everything. And so for me, it comes down to what am I willing to sacrifice? What am I willing to give up in order to be excellent at the thing that I really care about? And I went through a decade of really caring mostly about my physique and having had that extreme experience. I think that was the only reason I've been able to come back to balance. When you asked me if I see people, you know, and be inundated with people, I mean, all the time, I'm doing a nutrition coaching program right now. And it's great for me because like I'd mentioned,

Starting point is 00:20:40 I don't really do that. And so I'm still, I'm getting insight into the things that people are still asking. And I get caught going, wow, we're still talking about this. Like, I forget that this is a thing still because I'm kind of past it myself. And so when I get really kind of in my mind, very small, fine dial moving questions that have no impact on anything, I'm like, oh yeah, I forgot that every decision feels like a really big decision. So for example, someone messaged me yesterday and said, hey Jill, how important is the post workout window? I find after my workouts, I'm just not hungry. So, but, and so for me and the way that I am right now, I would just go, well, then you should honor that, right? Like just don't force yourself to eat if you're not starving. But also if you do put it off for an hour or two after your workout, unless you're getting up on stage, really there's negligible impact on your physique, right? So I find that

Starting point is 00:21:29 I'm working with clients who want to lose 30, 40, 50 pounds, and they're worried about how many grams of protein and how soon after my workout, I'm like, it just doesn't matter for you at this point. And so you have to be discerning. I have learned a level of discernment when it comes to nutrition decisions. And I don't know that I could have gotten that awareness and that discernment had I not felt at one point, like everything was super important, if that makes sense. Yeah, it does. But it kind of I try not to be like a cynical, pessimistic person, although it kind of sort of is a little bit my nature. But this is and there's no black and white. It's not like one rule applies to everybody. But it kind of seems like it's human nature that what you just described, it's like you almost have to like do it.

Starting point is 00:22:10 You have to go through it. You have to make a mistake instead of learning from someone else's. Like it sort of seems like that's the way it is. I was just interviewing a friend of mine the other day for another topic. And we were talking about like plant medicine. And he was saying that he was going through this like, this like a whole sort of diversion but it'll come back um where he's talking about this like weird frog venom cleanse where he's doing this weird stuff and it makes him like you super sick and then you purge and you feel this euphoria and you feel clean and

Starting point is 00:22:38 your mind feels free and he just he was like i was in a stressed out place and i didn't feel good and i really needed that and that's what i needed to go through. And I'm like, but why do we need to barf for three hours to feel good after? Like, why do we need to do that? And I agree. I completely relate to what you're saying because I feel the same way. Like, I felt like having been at different extremes in the health and diet kind of landscape, it helps me see some perspective. But do we just have to be like, look, you just kind of got to go through it yourself like there's no there's no you telling your story to other people that's gonna that's gonna convince them if they haven't gone through it themselves yeah I mean honestly I think

Starting point is 00:23:13 that I only really attract especially online I only really attract someone who traditionally has been in a place food obsession or exercise obsession like for example you know my mom has a totally normal relationship to food. Like she just literally eats when she's hungry. She stops when she's full and she doesn't understand why I, why there was ever a stress about it. And so that person would never be attracted to my message because my message is all about, okay, having a history of obsessive dieting and obsessive exercise. Like that person's going to go, okay, this doesn't apply to me. So I tend to attract people who are either, whether they're

Starting point is 00:23:48 competitors, former competitors, um, former yo-yo dieters. Those are the people that I attract the most. And for a lot of them, they still have a compulsion to want to quote, tighten up or want to be back on a program or want to try keto or try fasting or try these kinds of like things that we're seeing pop up these diets. Um, and my advice to them is always the same, go ahead and do it. I am a big fan of having the full experience and they'll say to me, well, Jill, I'm so worried because I know about your story after your, you know, how you rebounded. And I don't want to do that. And I was like, well, first of all, I had no awareness of that. When I did my first show, I remember feeling really, um, done wrong by the industry. Cause I did my first show, I remember feeling really done wrong by the

Starting point is 00:24:25 industry because I'm like, why isn't Oxygen Magazine talking about post-competition blues and rebounding? These things aren't out there. And I felt really alone. Of course, this is like 2006, 2007. So social media wasn't being used in the way that it's being used now to really elucidate all of these things. But back then I felt a lot of shame and guilt. And so my advice to this person who wants to diet, who wants to go on maybe something a little bit more extreme, I always say, do it, but have the awareness and I'll be here whenever you're ready to find a final solution. Like, cool, go do it. You'll learn about yourself. If nothing else, you'll learn about your psychology.

Starting point is 00:24:59 And as long as you have that awareness, then like, cool, like go through the mess of it. I actually think that you should go through the mess of it. You can sit here and hear me talk about the perils of this and whatever, but until you experience it yourself, I don't think you're going to get the full experience. Yeah. Okay. So with your coaching right now, it seems like, and from following you on social media, like you do a lot of one-on-one like interactive, you're, you've, you're doing like face-to-face kind of stuff over, you know, like, uh, whatever on the computer and stuff like that. How much, like, what's your work day look like? Like how many clients can you manage? How many people are you working with at a time? How are you, how are you fitting all that in?

Starting point is 00:25:39 I mean, it is a lot to manage, but honestly, like if I'm honest, especially growing my business, I knew very clearly because I came from a crazy personal training background in terms of, I was working at the gym 70 to 80 hours a week at one point. Yeah. Like teaching adult fitness classes a week. I was personal training 12 people a day because I was in scarcity. And I think I was like, okay, if I don't go above and beyond and I'm not the cheapest trainer, then my clients will leave me. And so it was really in scarcity for a long time. And then I read The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss. And at the point that I read it, I wasn't able to hear

Starting point is 00:26:13 it because it was like, yeah, work a couple hours a day. And I was like, is this person crazy? None of these strategies could ever work for me. I don't understand how someone could just work a couple hours a day. And over time, it took me a couple of years, but I started making small tweaks to my schedule. I started doing group training instead of one-on-one training. I started doing 30-minute sessions instead of hour-long sessions. I started increasing my prices over time. I started asking my boss for afternoon off or something like that. And so I had to take a transient pay cut, but I started making decisions based on lifestyle and not on money. And that was a huge thing that I, that huge value system that I

Starting point is 00:26:50 carried into when I was building my online business at Jill that I always prioritized lifestyle and time over money. The money came eventually, but I was unwilling to run myself into the ground. I had just come out of that personal training, kind of like haze to like stuck my head up of that grind and been like, well, how did I get to this point? Like, why is this my life right now? And so when I transitioned into online, I had a very clear message that I would sacrifice money for lifestyle if I had to, um, money has come, but for me it was always just about, okay. So on average, I probably work, I would say maybe six hours a day. Um, and I only take in-person coaching clients on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. So we're doing FaceTime, we're doing phone calls, doing zoom calls, we're doing webinars, doing tutorials. I do a lot of

Starting point is 00:27:35 stuff on the internet, obviously. Um, but everything's on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. So those days are really long for me, but they are, um, they allow me to just be in one mode during those days. Cause you know, as a creator, content creator, some obviously you're doing a podcast, like you, it takes a lot of time and space and like energy to be creative. And so on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, I'm not creative. I'm just coaching, coaching, coaching. It's kind of like old school personal training, right? One after the other. Um, I'm doing a lot of market research. I'm listening to my clients. I'm getting insight into what's going well for them. I'm getting clinical experience,

Starting point is 00:28:03 but then on the other days of the week, that's when I'm creating, that's when I do podcast interviews. That's when I do a lot of my more like longer writing, email newsletters, um, social media posts. If I'm planning a launch or some sort of new program, I do that on those days. So I don't have to switch back into coaching mode. And so I do a lot of batching with my time. I'm very, very protective of my time and have those boundaries in place. But I would say on average things get done, but honestly, actually, like sometimes the shit just doesn't get done. I'm going to be honest. Like I left my dry cleaning at the dry cleaner for like two months. I was like, Oh yeah, I'm sure it's fine. Like I'm sure

Starting point is 00:28:37 it's fine. Like I'm not, I don't cook, I don't clean. So there's a lot of things that just don't go, you know, get someone to come clean the house, right? You know, figure out a way to have my food delivered, whatever that looks like. So I outsource a lot. I do a lot of workarounds and shit sometimes just literally doesn't get done. And it's a lot of trade-offs, right? It's kind of like, okay, what am I willing to sacrifice? And I've always been, rather than trying to bring up my weaknesses, I've always just played to my strengths. I mean, that sounds like the healthiest way to do it, right? Like you, you're prioritizing, you're, you're figuring out what's the most important, what can be outsourced or given up entirely, or just kind of put on the back burner

Starting point is 00:29:15 and focus on the things that matter. I mean, that sounds like the smartest way to do it. I have the same kind of approach in terms of day to day work. Like I like you, I do like the podcasting only like two days a week, because as you said, it takes a different kind of mindset and headspace to do that work versus like writing or whatever the other stuff that you're doing. And yeah, you don't want to be scattered, you want to have your head in the game with whatever it is you're happy you have to be doing on that day. So that makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah, we have those things that pop up too. I mean, yes, it's healthy for sure, but it's certainly, I'm very boundary heavy. And so I really only had people in my life who understand that. And so for me, I always feel like boundaries is the kindest thing that we can do, like stating boundaries and forcing boundaries,

Starting point is 00:29:57 but not everyone is like that. Especially if you're dealing with someone who is like a traditionally maybe a people pleaser or does more things out of obligation or guilt. Like even for me, like not cleaning my own house, I struggled with that at first. Cause I was like, I should be able to clean my own house. And like, that's something I should take pride in. And then I was like, why the fuck am I doing that? Like literally it's $50 to hire someone to do it. Can't I just make $50 on the internet and then get that off my plate? 100%. So it's not just about the time it takes to clean the house. It's the like all the mental energy around it of like, fuck, I got to clean the house tomorrow. Oh, like getting myself like pumped up to do it. So I just was like, you know, I'm not

Starting point is 00:30:32 doing that anymore. But there was a lot of like residual kind of like guilt and shame around I don't cook food like you. My mom's like, Jill, don't you want to like learn how to cook a couple really good dishes? So if you have company over and I'm like, no, I'll just cater it. I mean, but I think you have to let go of the traditional maybe gender roles or whatever that is to be like, I'm like kind of a boss babe or whatever you want to call it. And that's kind of the thing that I'm best at and everything else can get managed. Yeah. Like it's the, that concept of like having it all big air quotes over here that like nobody, and there's always that conversation for women it never seems to be a conversation for men but maybe and then it's like you know like type a people who

Starting point is 00:31:10 think even if they don't admit it outside internally they're thinking like yeah i should be able to kind of have it all because i'm like smart and i have a lot of energy and i'm ambitious and i want to do these things but i think maybe that's another thing that as you kind of said earlier it's like you almost have to go through the fire to get there. Like you try to have it all for a while and realize that like, what am I, why am I wasting my time on things I'm not passionate about when I can have somebody else clean the house and I can go do the things that matter to me. I think that's, again, it's like a wisdom thing almost. Like you just kind of have to go through it to get there. It's totally true. Especially what we were talking about earlier about having like the

Starting point is 00:31:42 perfect body or being in like that kind of show shape or that elite level shape. When I started Jill fit, I realized that I couldn't exercise and eating couldn't have been a, couldn't be a full-time job anymore. So that's a trade-off is going like, okay, I'm not going to be 12% body fat, but I also like want to build this thing over here. And it's like, I can do anything, but I can't do everything. And having that realization, I think there was a period of time where you want to be able to do it all and you keep forcing yourself to try to do it all. And then for me, it was just like Groundhog Day. Week after week, I was trying to do all these things and it kept not working.

Starting point is 00:32:16 The reality was it wasn't working as much as my intentions were great. And I really wanted it all to work. And I want to be lean. I want to do this. I want to do that. I kept being really, I've just noticed, you have to notice that you're being ineffective. And so I was like, cool, then something's got to go. How can I take all this exercise and this obsession over food and minimize it so that I can have an open up brain's power and open up time to build my business and

Starting point is 00:32:37 be successful and impact more lives. And so I think you have to have that awareness too of going like, cool, let me pick and choose my battles. And that's not always easy. Yeah. You talked about boundary setting and about the importance of sort of creating the lifestyle and the balance that you want more importantly than how much money you're going to make online. And you, you've also been really transparent, um, about struggles that you've had with, uh, your competing and with your attitude towards food and with your marriage and divorce and all of these things that you've been very bravely outspoken about. What happened in, and I'm sure this wasn't an overnight thing, this was, I'm sure, a process that took a lot longer than that, but what were the things that happened to get you out of a lifestyle or an

Starting point is 00:33:27 experience that was problematic and into one where you are able to kind of create boundaries and see things objectively and find balance? Like was there external therapy that happened? Was it like a hitting rock bottom kind of moment where you're like, this isn't working? How do I dig myself out? Like, talk to me a little bit about the process of going from a situation that was unhappy and overwhelming into one where you felt like you had more control over finding your own kind of happiness? Yeah, so it's interesting. That's a great question. And you're right, it didn't happen overnight. But I wish I was one of those people who, you know, like sought out personal development or at an early age, And I just wasn't.

Starting point is 00:34:05 I was not that kind of person I am now. I'm very introspective now. And I really enjoy the process of learning about how I am uncovering my own BS and stuff like that. But it really wasn't. I was never that. I was not really an independent thinker. I was kind of a blaming and complaining type person.

Starting point is 00:34:22 And then what happened in my marriage really just kind of slapped me across the face. I think all of us have an example in life where life just punches you and you're like, okay, shit, I have to wake up. And what happened was I found out that my husband had had an affair. And it was a really kind of complicated situation. We'd been married, we'd been together for about 10 years. From what I could tell, had a great relationship. It was really confusing, I think, for both of us. And in that moment, I remember being so distraught and shocked that I just needed help. And I didn't know who to turn to. And I had shared with a couple of my girlfriends at the time, and they were like, he's an asshole. And it was, it was fine. It was like these, this cheerleader kind of like support that felt good, but it didn't change things for me.

Starting point is 00:35:09 And that was a moment where I was like, okay, this, thank you for being on my team. And I appreciate that. But like, I still feel helpless. I still feel out of my power. And so I went to Barnes and Noble and I remember I was in like the self-help section and I was like almost embarrassed to be there. Cause I was like, oh my God, I'm crazy. And like, and I remember being was in like the self-help section and I was like almost embarrassed to be there because I was like, oh, my God, I'm crazy. And like and I remember being so self-conscious, but I ended up picking up a couple of books around like what to do after an affair. And all the advice to me seemed it was fine, but it didn't really again, it didn't put me in my power. It was stuff like, you know, he needs to apologize and, you know, you need to make him pay and like all of these kinds of things that required him to like, choose me again, like him to choose me. And that still felt, I still felt helpless. I still felt like, okay, cool. But like, what can

Starting point is 00:35:57 I do? What can I do? And a girlfriend of mine at the time turned me on to, um, the books and the work of Byron Katie, who is like a personal development kind of person, but she's like your grandmother. She's like 75 years old and she's like very calm, but she kind of went through her own kind of personal, she's not like a guru or anything, but she has a very tangible and very tactical tool that she calls inquiry or the four questions, asking four questions. And what it does is it helps you come to terms with reality. So my new reality was my husband had an affair for two years that I didn't know about. What do I do now? How can I change either tactically do something different or how can I change my attitude and perspective of the situation? So I feel in my power. I can't just sit around here

Starting point is 00:36:41 and be mad at him. Sure. I'm going to be mad. I'm going to do all, I'm going to have all those emotions, but at the end of the day, what's my action here? What do I get to do to feel better about this situation or to put myself back in my power? And one thing, and you kind of mentioned it, one thing that I did do was share. And that was really scary. I shared on the internet, like literally just, I, and I wasn't from a place of, at this point, I had already worked through a lot of the, my anger and my hurt and my resentment and all that kind of stuff. And we had separated. But by the time I shared online and in our podcast, The Best Life, it felt really cathartic. And so I think it's Brittany Brown who says like, shame can't survive being spoken.

Starting point is 00:37:17 Because there was a lot of embarrassment. And this is the same stuff that happens with food stuff. If you've ever maybe like binge ate or you've overeaten or you've like, it's the same feeling, right? It's a feeling of shame and embarrassment and insecurity. And so I recognize from my competing days, I recognize the emotions and I just recognize that I wanted to figure out a way to not feel those things anymore. So I use things like self-compassion and gratitude.

Starting point is 00:37:41 And those emotions are so hard. It's so hard to choose gratitude when you feel so done wrong in that situation. And so Byron Katie's work really helped me quite a bit. I was also really doing a lot of like self-reflection about like what I really wanted. And it was a process. And I think one of the biggest things that helped me was physically move. I actually moved to Los Angeles. I, within like a month or within a week, rather, I kind of like sold all my stuff or gave it away and, um, packed up my car and drove across country and started a new life. And I, I was really lonely for a period of time. And that was new for me too, because I hadn't been single since I was 18. So I think it's a combination

Starting point is 00:38:18 of, yes, you can bolster your experience through resources. And I actually was seeing a therapist at the time and, and resources and talk it out and have people who can be objective and give you tools. But at the same time, I think it's just timing too. It's time and wisdom. Like you mentioned, it's experience. It's about doing the thing. So I had to go through a period of real loneliness and real not knowing what to do. And it's uncomfortable every second. I think it's a fallacy to think that we're going to be comfortable every second. In fact, we're knowing what to do. And it's uncomfortable every second. I think it's a fallacy to think that we're going to be comfortable every second. In fact, like we're not going to be right. So if you find yourself and you're in a situation, whether it's in a relationship situation or a

Starting point is 00:38:52 relationship with food or a dieting, or maybe you don't feel comfortable in your skin, realize that uncertainty is a given at some point, like there's going to be a period of uncertainty. So I always say the better you get at discomfort, the better you get. So you can breathe into like, I actually don't know what's going to happen. And that's a really powerful place to be, to be okay with not knowing, because in my experience, if you continue to ask yourself the questions, you know, read the books, like do the journaling, whatever it is, take care of yourself, get to the gym over time. It elucidates the next step. You don't need to know 10 steps from now, but at some point the next step will be revealed to you so long as you're

Starting point is 00:39:29 staying aware. And so I wasn't one of those like personal people who like saw to had a whole bunch of tools when this happened, I literally got smacked across the face. I was like, Oh fuck, I better figure this out. And, and the, the insight for me was just not feeling in my power. And as a strong woman, you know, I didn't like that feeling. I didn't like feeling helpless. And so I was, I went looking for tools and it took a few, a few tools to get to what actually helped me. Okay. That's a lot. That's a lot. I think there's two, there's two big things that I kind of took from this story and one of them, and they're, they're almost sort of, they sound like maybe a little contradictory

Starting point is 00:40:06 because they'd be hard to do both at the same time or even consecutively. But one is sort of allowing yourself to kind of feel the feelings and feel the discomfort and go through the process of what you have to go through when you're dealing with any challenge, the one you went through or anything similar, sickness or any kind of catastrophe in your family or losing a job or anything, like allowing yourself to be

Starting point is 00:40:30 in that fear or discomfort or helplessness or betrayal or whatever you're feeling, because trying to immediately distract yourself or push it away or put a bandaid on it. We've all had that experience. And it never works. If it worked, we'd all be walking around with band-aids happy as hell. So that doesn't work, but there's that element of it. And then there's also the element of just having tools and having action plans and having things that put you back in the driver's seat, because that's the worst part of it is if you're, you're struggling with something and you feel powerless and you feel helpless and you feel like there's nothing you can do. It's just a thing that's happening to you. So those are two kind of tricky elements because on one hand, it's like you sort of have to, as you said, be in that experience

Starting point is 00:41:14 and allow it to happen and observe it happening. But also at the same time, be searching for ways to put yourself back in a position where you can create change that you need to have to be happier and healthier. So with this situation, did you, did you, was there ever a question of maybe like staying with your partner? Cause I think you've mentioned that you're like, you're in a place now where you guys are quite like friendly and civil with each other and you've kind of moved past a lot of this stuff. So what, what was that about? Yeah. I think to your point that you need both, you need periods of time to do both of those things. And I'm not an expert at this.

Starting point is 00:41:46 I can just share my own experience, which is there was a whole year after I found out about the affair that we stayed together because it was a weird kind of situation where he wasn't like actively with the person anymore. So like, and she had, the person had moved on to someone else. And so he was kind of in a heartbreak situation too, which was awkward for me. And we ended up staying together for a year and I know I kind of, um, you know,

Starting point is 00:42:09 joked about like running for my marriage, but that was what I, when I was doing that. So it was basically like, cool, like see you later. I'm going to Italy for two weeks by myself. And like, I felt very much like, uh, this thing over here isn't solid anymore. It's not solid how I thought it was. So I have to figure out a way to batten down the hatches and feel in my power, even if we're going to stay together. So I literally would like go to dinner by myself. I would, you know, go on a weekend vacation up to the mountains by myself. I would just practice being a, being more alone. So for me, I know my tendency is more, if you've read the book, if you've heard of attachment theory or read the book attached, I tend to be, at least in that relationship, I tended to be more of an anxious attachment, which was if I felt him pulling away,

Starting point is 00:42:50 I was like, but let's come back and let's talk more. And we need to talk more. And like, I just wanted more connection. And the more I did that, the more he kind of pulled away, right? Cause he's more of an avoidant type. And so that for me, it felt really like, I just was like, I'm losing my best friend. I'm losing, it was like grieving a part of your life. That's no longer a situation that reality that is different. And so I started traveling and that was when I was in like the very uncertain place. We were still together, super uncertain. Um, and all I did was just put one foot in front of the other. I just went day by day. What do I feel like today? You know? And I think as a, the reason we can be friends now is because we did always show back up to the conversation because he, you know, he was eight years older than me. And I think I kind of put

Starting point is 00:43:33 him up on this pedestal of like, he's a mentor to me. He has more life experience. He knows better. And he's a teacher by nature. So I think like I kind of always defaulted to, he maybe knows better. And so I remember being in this point where we were, um, you know, talking about something and it was really kind of getting heated. And he's like, Jill, I know that you want me to tell you the answer to this, but I've never been through this either. And that was just a light bulb moment for me of like, Oh, this is uncharted territory. Like neither of us know what the fuck we're doing. And so that at that point, that was when I was like, okay, cool. Like I can't rely on him. Like I really can't. And so I was just in this really uncertain, really uncomfortable place, kind of almost tiptoeing around the relationship a little

Starting point is 00:44:12 bit talking about it. But it was clear within a year that he wasn't in an emotional place to like really repair the relationship, right? He was still kind of caught up with his ex a little bit. And I just felt like a bystander, to be honest. And that was when I was like, you know what? I could stay. Things are tolerable. It's fine, but we're still going to be having the same conversation in three months and six months from now. And I don't want to do that. So that's when I, that's when I left the marriage and it wasn't, I didn't leave because I wasn't, I wasn't like, you know, see if you can handle life without me or like, or I didn't leave to be chased. It wasn't like to teach him a lesson. It was literally just 100% for me. And I think that's a distinction that you have to make because a lot of us, especially for

Starting point is 00:44:47 someone like me, who's a recovering kind of perfection type a personality, we like control. And so for me, it was like, well, I'm just going to ask for a divorce because then that's going to, I'm going to put me in my power, but that wasn't really what I wanted, right? I wanted to work things out, but I saw over time that that wasn't going to be possible. So I had to completely relinquish control. And to me, the opposite of control is trust and it's self-trust. So I was like, cool, I'm going to go do this thing. And I'm going to, this part of my life is no longer, I'm going to have to figure this out on my own. And the only person I can really trust at this point is myself. And so cool. If I trust myself and I can handle anything and you have to go through that. So it was, it was both. And it was like, yes, uncertain discomfort, do the best you possibly

Starting point is 00:45:28 can. Like, I'm not going to lie. Sometimes I'd have like a bottle of wine for dinner. Like, and that's just the best I'm going to do today. And then in other times, you know, I felt really in my power and I was able to like leave and do that kind of stuff and start a new life in LA. And it was because I think we communicated so much over that process. Believe me, there were plenty of times where I was like, I'm not going to talk to you again and like, whatever. But then we ended up kind of always coming back and just appreciating each other as a human.

Starting point is 00:45:51 And now I can kind of, there's nothing romantic, but I can just appreciate him as a human. And he, he did a complete 180 from where he was in terms of, he was, you know, he admits that he was a coward and was, you know, a liar and all those kinds of things. And now he's like, honesty is his religion. And so that's why we can have more honest conversations now than we ever did when we were together, to be honest. Hmm. Well, I mean, a bottle of wine for dinner is very relatable. So we can all understand that feeling. This leads me to kind of another question that's sort of bringing it back a little bit to the business side of things, which obviously you're very well known for and very successful in terms of like

Starting point is 00:46:27 how to market yourself and create a business around what you can offer to people. And I'm actually going through your action right now, because I'm, you know, I'm part of this as well. Like I most of my kind of thing is being the conduit between people like you, experts and authorities and the people who need to hear it. And I really love that, that part of what I get to do, because I'm just a curious person. I love to ask questions. I love to learn. I love to share it. And that's, that's basically the gist of my business at this point, but there's more to it. And I want to grow it. And I feel like I can gain a lot from, from this course. I already am. But one of the things that you talked about and you've been talking about is knowing what your story is, and being able to communicate

Starting point is 00:47:08 your story, because people, people relate and understand and care more about a personal story or journey than like, hey, I'm a person who has these qualifications. And I know this much, because as you said, like, the information is out there, everybody has those qualifications, everybody knows what to eat and whatever, you know what I mean? It's more about your individual story and what makes you unique and what you can offer to people and how people can relate to you. And I, I understand where you're coming from. And I agree with that in a lot of cases, but do you find, and again, maybe this is just

Starting point is 00:47:41 me being a dick, but do you find that that is something that is more unique to women and women in this industry? Like, I feel like, dude, it's not the same. I feel like men aren't, like, coaching, like, male coaches or fitness trainers or whatever. Like, you have to tell your story and you have to connect with people. It's like dudes are just like, can I, I don't know, like, do I have the right connections? Am I strong enough? Like, can I do an impressive deadlift? And so other guys will want a deadlift like me. Like, is that, am I off base or do you think that

Starting point is 00:48:08 that's, yeah, I mean, yes, I do think that that's true to some degree. I mean, I'm not an expert in this. I teach mostly women. Um, but I do think that storytelling, no matter what the kind of storytelling is. So for example, I agree with you. I think dudes are more just like, Hey, do you, they're looking for more of a coach that has an aspirational kind of quality. So they might not be like sharing their most vulnerable secrets and like struggles, but they are showing the lifestyle they're living, which is yes, I can deadlift 700 pounds. Yes. I can, you know, I look a certain way. Yes. I have a six pack. Yes. I have a beautiful family, whatever that is. I think there's still an aspirational quality to a male coach that other

Starting point is 00:48:45 men can look up to and go like, wow, that dude looks like he has his shit together. He's strong. He's obviously fit. He's great family life. Like I think that they can covet that aspect of it. I think with women in general, and of course it's a huge generalization, but I think we connect more to wanting to feel normal. I think that's the bottom line is like, as women, we want to know that our feelings and our emotions are okay. And maybe they're not ideal. Like I don't love feeling bad about things. I don't love feeling insecure, but I also want to know that I'm not the only one. And so I think when it comes down to story, like you mentioned, everyone has qualifications, right? So if I sit there and I'm like, and I list off the reasons why I'm qualified, people's eyes are going to

Starting point is 00:49:23 gloss over, right? That's not really what it's about. But if I tell you about my history of yo-yo dieting and someone's listening to that, and I'm sharing the emotions that I was feeling in those moments of guilt and shame and self-berating and self-loathing, and really share in a very honest, open way, someone is going to feel connected to that. And they're going, oh my God, that's me. I thought I was the only one. And we, by nature, just want to be around other people like us. And so there's something called the pratfall effect. I think this is really important to note is that because we've all been, we've all seen people on social media, who were just like, we want to like, it's like a train wreck, right? You're like, why are they sharing that? It feels like it's jumping, right? And you're like, this is not attractive. I actually

Starting point is 00:50:01 don't want to be around that person as a result of this dumping. So one thing is sharing struggles. And I think it's important to show people that you are human and pull back the curtain a little bit. And it's extremely validating to other people. And in fact, it makes them feel encouraged. But so the practical effect is they actually did a research study that they brought in an actor, but he was like supposed to be an executive at a boardroom. So he came in, he was like dressed really nicely, obviously competent. And he just gave a talk to a bunch of people in a lecture hall. And then he left and they actually had the people who were in the lecture hall rate his likability, right? They're like, Oh, he's confident. He's smart. He's whatever. Then they had a whole separate group of people come in. Same actor came in, but this time he came in same clothes, same look, same competency,

Starting point is 00:50:48 but he had a coffee stain on his shirt and he kind of made it like a joke about like, oh, I just like drop coffee on myself. Like, and it was kind of like this joke. And then he gave the talk and it was again, very competent, very, um, kind of an authority. And then they had people after he left rank his likability. And because he had the coffee stain, he was ranked as more likable and more relatable. Makes sense, right? But so the key here is, yes, you have to have the relatability piece, but you also also have to have a competency about you. So someone feels like they might be able to learn something from you. So you need both relatability and you also need authority.

Starting point is 00:51:25 And so that is like that pratfall effect is like, we need to have both of those things. If it's just, I'm just like you, then you feel like, cool, you might be a friend of mine. If we live next door, we would have a glass of wine together. And that's great. That's just connection, but I don't feel like I can learn from you. And you don't have just, and I think dudes do this a little bit more,

Starting point is 00:51:43 again, generalization, where they just, they're academic or they dudes do this a little bit more again, generalization where they just, they're academic or they're more dry or they're more like, um, I don't want to say intellectual because obviously there's a lot of really smart women, but they just go off their expertise. They don't share as much about their personal stuff. They just want to talk about biochemistry or whatever, and that's fine. But for a female or woman who's starting in this space, you can't, there's very few who can get away with

Starting point is 00:52:05 resting on their expertise alone. You have to pull back the curtain and show that you're human. So you need both and not just the dumping and then not just the like 100%, I'm an authority, I'm a teacher all the time. That person's not going to be relatable enough. Yeah. I'm smiling like the whole time you're telling the story because it's so, yeah, you see it over and over again in social media and people who are successful in this world it's like you have to walk that just that fine line between like being a relatable person but also being aspirational and I have personally um I think bumped up against this so much because I tend to in a lot of cases and this could be like a whole other conversation because I think we're all very layered, complex people, and you can't fit us into boxes. I just had this rant on social media the other day. But I tend to, I think, relate more to sort of like the masculine side of it in

Starting point is 00:52:56 this way in which like, I rebel against the notion that it's like, I have to tell people when I'm having a shitty day or that I, you know, I messed up and like binge ate the other day, but I'm still cool. I still know what I'm doing. Like, you know, I'm relatable guys. Like I, I, I realized the value of it. I truly do. But I still, I guess it's almost like a, it's, it's definitely a control thing. And it's definitely a wall that I want to put up where I'm like, well, I don't want to have to share everything about myself with people. And I shouldn't have to tell people about my all of my flaws or deepest secrets or greatest failures for them to know that I'm, you know, valuable or that I can I can give value to them. But I still I still there is a intellectual part of my brain that's like, yeah, but, you know,

Starting point is 00:53:40 people do need to know that you're human and that you have a story and that you're not just a person who's going to rehash the information that's out there by a million other people. But I still, I still to this day, struggle with it. And I don't know what it's going to take. Maybe coach, you can tell me. I think there's plenty of people by the way, like, but the internet's so amazing that there are just, there's so many, because we have so many online coaches now, we've more than we've ever had in terms of like, it's just, it's way more saturated, but we also have a lot more people who are willing to pay money on the internet for coaching. So both the spaces are getting bigger. I think sometimes

Starting point is 00:54:14 you focus on like, oh my God, there's so many coaches, but here's the thing that it has allowed. It has allowed for the clients to coach like connection to be even more specific. So for example, you know, I don't know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, you went to get ice cream. It was like chocolate, vanilla, strawberry, right? Those are the only flavors. And we were like, well, I guess I don't like love any of them, but I'll just, I guess I'll get chocolate. I'll get the best. But now you show up at a anywhere and it's like, there's double chocolate, there's mint chocolate shit. There's a whole like 10 different types of chocolate ice cream. Same thing is happening online. So I don't know that you like quote need to, here's how I would say that you would know if you need to share

Starting point is 00:54:50 is if you are feeling shame around something, to me, that's an indication that there can be some catharsis and doesn't even have to be on the internet, but it needs to be to someone. It can, it needs to be to a friend, a family member, um, write it in your journal. It needs to be to a therapist, someone. So for me, the sharing is cathartic, but I also don't think you have to force it as a gimmick. So if you're like, well, I know I need to do this because I need to be relatable. Like that shit's always going to come off off. People are like, I'm sharing because I feel like I'm trying to make money. Like that's going to come off as super inauthentic, whether or not it's like, it's an energy thing. We can all pick up, like people are smarter than they've ever been. And consumers are savvy as fuck. So like,

Starting point is 00:55:28 it's going to come off as a gimmick. And that's something I struggle with some of my clients because they're just beginning and they're like, they want to know best practices, right? So like, okay, well, Jill says I have to do this. So it comes off, it comes off super formulaic and that doesn't work either. So it's like, hey, yes, do these best practices, but also don't forget to be yourself. And so it's a balance. It's like, cool, how can I really, and in my experience, it takes a long time to find the balance of sharing, but also sharing in an authentic way, not forcing it. If you're forcing it, it's going to come off. People pick up on that energy. Yeah, it's so true. Just finding that sort of sweet spot for you and it's gonna it is gonna be

Starting point is 00:56:07 different for everybody because you're right like I'm laughing as you're saying it like if I'm like if I have to post something about how I like cried yesterday because it's gonna get more people to like listen to my podcast like that's hashtag robot shit like I that is not authentic to me at all so I guess it's like it's but that's where the work comes in figuring out like, what, what is, again, what is your story? How do you want to tell it? What's the most authentic, real way that you can tell it and communicate it to people? And because again, it like, it sort of sounds like a cliche, but I guess because there's so much truth to it, that if you are authentic, people are going to pick up on that. As you said, if you're inauthentic,

Starting point is 00:56:43 people know it a mile away. I think so attractive about authenticity. And I kind of hate that word because just like everyone's using it now. It's kind of overused, but there really is in the moments that I've been the most scared to share something. And they've been the most authentic posts, but I've been scared because I'm like, Oh, holy shit. Like I'm about to like, I don't know, show my like cellulite ass on social media, whatever it is, have always been the most well-received because I think it's so rare. I think that level of authenticity is so rare that even if it is like, holy shit, I never want her ass, it has too much cellulite on it, there's still something attractive about that. Does that make sense?

Starting point is 00:57:19 I think that we are craving realness. I think we're craving a sense of connection and just not feeling alone. And so whatever that looks like, but I think it takes some time and I want to validate that. It takes some time to be here, to learn how to be yourself, which is sounds stupid, but that's really what we're talking about. No,

Starting point is 00:57:40 I don't think, yeah, I don't think that sounds stupid at all. Cause I'm still literally trying to figure out, I'm like deep in the middle of trying to figure out who the hell I am. And I'm a grown ass woman. So yeah, it's, it's, it is a process. And I think that it also it's a process that changes too. Because as you've shown, like you've gone through a lot of kind of big life changes. And as that's happening, like you're not the same person you were a decade ago, and you probably won't be the same person a decade from now. So those things have to kind of stay fluid and, and, you know, be able to be adaptable. And I'm a lot of these questions are stemming actually from a podcast that you were just on that I listened to with Jordan shallow, a buddy of mine who you were like his second woman he's ever spoken to. Okay, but second woman he's ever had on his podcast. And you guys had some interesting talks,

Starting point is 00:58:24 and I know I'm going off on another tangent, but I just had to mention it because I have so much admiration for this. And it is the book that you wrote. You wrote a novel, right? Yeah. And I just love how, like, uncomfortable it made him because it was about sex. And he's like, oh, I just loved it. I made fun of him after. But I have so much admiration for what you did. And it

Starting point is 00:58:45 relates to this conversation we're having about authenticity and putting yourself out there and being uncomfortable and doing it anyway. And I also have a personal stake in that because I'm a writer and I would love to one day publish something like publish a book or publish a novel right now. I work in magazines. But the fact that you, you know, you can tell a story in your own words, but you had a desire, you had an interest in writing a book and you sat down and you fucking did it. Like it was six months or whatever. And you dedicated yourself to it and it was uncomfortable and weird. And like you were scared and you did it. And writing a book has got to be one of the hardest things for anybody to do. And the fact that you just, you just did it, I have so much respect for that.

Starting point is 00:59:27 Yeah, thank you. It's funny that we were talking about, like, you know, fear of kind of, like, pulling back the curtain because I actually didn't even tell my closest friends I was doing it. I felt so embarrassed by it. I was like, this is weird, and I must be a freak, and And like, I want to write about Seth, but not only do I want to read like dirty romance novels, but I want to like actually write this stuff. And like, I would get super uncomfortable. I'd be in a coffee shop writing, getting like super uncomfortable, like literally like, can people read over my shoulder? So I didn't even share it with my closest friends or family for months. And the reason why I started doing it was because at

Starting point is 01:00:04 the time, this is right after like 50 shades came out and I read that. And the reason why I started doing it was because at the time, this is right after like 50 shades came out. And I read that. And even though the writing, I could tell that the writing was pretty terrible. And I even felt like I shouldn't like to read this. It was a weird, like guilty pleasure. If anyone's ever like listening and you've ever like read romance novels, they're so formulaic. They're all the exact same. They're all about some, some person being saved. So as a strong woman, I was like, like why do I like these I even like beat myself up like why am I reading this why am I into this why is this how I'm spending my time it's such a waste of time whatever but I was in a real interesting place in my marriage where like things weren't going well this is right before the

Starting point is 01:00:38 affair came out and also I was in a creative rut so So with content on Jill Fit, I had been writing Jill Fit for about three years. And I just felt like just no desire to write about health and fitness. And I was like, you know what? At that point, I had a couple of friends who were authors. And I was like reading these books. I'm like, this doesn't seem hard. This literally doesn't seem that hard. And I was like, I have an idea for a book.

Starting point is 01:01:00 So I did an outline. And at the time, it was a completely different lifestyle than I was living. It took place in Las Vegas. Everyone was super rich in it. Like it was just like, everyone's beautiful or whatever. I lived in a small town in North Carolina. And so for me, it was escapism. It really was the escapism. And it was also getting me out of that creative rut and having something that I was interested in doing and having a focus for, like you said, six months, I would literally show up at a coffee shop like Monday through Friday and write for a few hours I would get my other work done and then I would just write and I treated it like a job and when I was coming into the last few chapters I was like I just

Starting point is 01:01:37 it was like eye on the prize like I'm finishing this thing I actually hired an editor um to edit it for me um and then I lost a lot of steam when she gave it back to me. And I was like, holy shit, there's so much to do. I give up. And so actually, it's never been published. It's 82,000 words. I might revisit it. The writing is terrible. But I just had a desire to write a story that was so drastically different than the reality I was living, that it felt like escapism. And yeah, now I'm really proud of it. Obviously, I'm talking about podcasts, I put it on my social media, but it went from being again, talking about sharing the vulnerability of that. It's like, it could be embarrassing if I decided it was, but I realized that that's a choice, like feeling embarrassed over it. Now I just feel proud

Starting point is 01:02:18 as hell. I'm like, yeah, how many people have written an 82,000 word book, even if it sucks, it's like the completion of that, to me, you know, and sure, is it dirty? Yeah. But like, whatever it's that's, I have a different relationship to sex now to having gone through everything that I've gone through in my relationship. And, you know, I grew up Catholic. So it was like a weird, I had a weird relationship with sex early on. It's dirty, whatever. And now having been out, like literally jumped into the dating pool when I was 34 years old and I hadn't been single since I was 18. Like, how do you navigate? Like, is it okay to have sex for fun? And like, is it okay to have a one night stand? Is it okay to like date multiple people at one time? And

Starting point is 01:02:53 so a lot of that kind of personal, like I guess, personal development happened through being single and navigating a new space and kind of feeling like, well, hey, sex isn't that dirty. And we talk about it on the podcast a lot. And it's not only is it not dirty, but it's like fun. And it doesn't need to have a whole stigma around it. So now I'm much more open about it and own it. Like we talk about, I mean, I send news to my boyfriend all the time. Like we talk about on social media, not that everyone should or has to. And if this conversation is even making you feel uncomfortable, like maybe dig into that a little bit. But it is, it has been cathartic for me. And it's been, you know, a full expression of who I am as a person. And it's been fun.

Starting point is 01:03:31 I love it. And I think that you should revisit and publish it because you may say that the writing's crappy. But I will tell you, I have read, well, I read the first Fifty Shades of Grey. And it's like fully the worst writing I've ever read and I read a lot so that's saying something and I think that there's obviously a huge need for erotica dirty books for women so like we need more out there because I don't want Fifty Shades to be the only thing that's out there for people I'm a big fan of like not shitting on something that you don't know about so like for anybody who's saying like oh those books suck or whatever you haven't read it like you need you can't you cannot knock something until you've tried it. And that is

Starting point is 01:04:07 the sole reason why I read 50 shades. And I was like, Oh, it makes me so it honestly did. I mean, maybe this judgmental, it kind of made me sad that I, I, that was how most like so many women were getting off. Cause I'm like, I feel like there's so much, you can, you can have so much better and so much more. And I hope that that happens. Has anyone in your family or close friends read the book i've sent just a couple of friends like different pieces i have a couple of friends that are authors too that i've sent like different parts to um but not in its entirety just my editor yeah i mean well that's like the world we're living in now where people can like self publish and you publish what you want. And like there's and, you know, it's like a whole there's different expectations for stuff like that now, too.

Starting point is 01:04:51 Like with, you know, decades ago, it was like reality TV completely changed how people expect us to take that kind of media in. And now with like YouTube and social media, the way that we take in our information and our entertainment is so different that there's tons of possibilities for how you want to kind of put that out. I'm interested in reading it. I know I messaged you on Instagram. I think it was like a couple months ago, you like mentioned it. And I was like, Jill wrote a dirty book. I want to read it so much. I mean, I definitely am all the things, but for me, I am an intellectual, you know, so I think it was a weird kind of out of myself concept to write that. That's why I think why the disconnect and the shame kind of came from it, at least the embarrassment at first. Cause I was like, well,

Starting point is 01:05:32 this isn't like part of my self concept and this is not who I am on the internet or whatever. But I think what was really interesting is once my personal life started changing and I, I did leave the marriage and like, I started just being more, um, I don't want to say like being more or less repressed, but just being fully more expressed, uh, lost complete interest in it. Like I haven't, I haven't read a romance novel in like, I don't know, five years. I mean, like I just, it's just not because I think there was like a longing there of like having that level, that kind of connection, as silly as it sounds, like having that kind of connection in a relationship

Starting point is 01:06:09 where, I mean, it's so indulgent. It's like, oh, like, let me be just, you know, let me let dudes like die for me or whatever it is. I think it's a female version of a fantasy, you know? And so it just, it is what it is. I don't judge it. I just go like, cool. That was what I needed in that moment that I needed it. And it served two purposes. It allowed me to feel like, okay, cool,

Starting point is 01:06:28 had a sense of accomplishment of writing and completing a book, no matter what the content. And then also was that kind of outlet for, you know, getting out of my creative rut and Jill fit and being able to because you know, I look at it like this, this industry is about tenacity. It literally is like you had mentioned earlier about, you know, different iterations of your person and without being able to honor those. I mean, honestly, I don't know how someone talks about macros for 10 years. Like I don't get that. I'm just like, what else? You know? Yeah. That book can be like one page long. It's cool. It's just like, cool. What else? You're obviously a multifaceted person. What else are you doing? Like bring us in. And I love social media for being able to show that you're not just someone who like helps people calculate macros. It's like you also have a family and you have friends and you have a glass of wine on the weekends. Like I like seeing all of those things. And it's I don't know, I feel like we're really in a cool time. And I feel like we still don't fully know all the possibility for social media, but I'm here for it. Yeah. What other, so that, you know, obviously served kind of a purpose for you at a specific time in your life. And again, I kind of

Starting point is 01:07:32 commend you because a lot of people who are like looking for escape or looking for something, maybe they'd read a couple dirty books or like watch a lot of Netflix and then you wrote a fucking book. So again, congratulations. But, um, so what, what else, what are you doing now? Um, in addition to all the hard work that you're doing online and with your clients, um, what else are you doing? That's, that's exciting and fun and fulfilling. Um, you know, when I left my marriage and going through my divorce, I really doubled down on work because I was like, okay, as again, recovering kind of control freak. I was like, this thing over here is not solid. Really, the only thing I have control over is my work ethic and how I can impact. So I really

Starting point is 01:08:13 poured myself into work. I think some people do the opposite. If they're going through something emotional, they completely detach from work. I went the opposite way, completely in just workaholic mode, which is fun for me. It's always fun for me. And I derive a sense of purpose and fulfillment from that. But what happened was I've actually been in a new relationship now for about a year. Went through kind of like all the dating stuff. And my boyfriend is not in this space at all.

Starting point is 01:08:42 He's actually a fireman. And so like he doesn't understand this space at all. He's actually a fireman. And so like, he doesn't understand my industry at all. He like, he's into fitness and stuff, but he's, and he used to be trainer, but he doesn't really understand internet business. He's like, you know, I, we don't really talk about work, which is great. Cause like, obviously I can't, I don't relate to what it's like when I'm like a medical call where someone got shot in the face. Like, I don't get that either. So we don't really talk about work. So it's forced us to like, we, we connect on other stuff. We connect on hobbies. We connect on interest. We connect on, uh, intellectual pursuits and things like that that have nothing to do with work.

Starting point is 01:09:11 So it's been great for me to have this, like, and I still have people I go to, if I want to talk about strategy and work, right. I have those kinds of friends too, but I've taken up snowboarding. I've taken up skateboarding. I'm taking up surfing. Like I've just started doing more hobby type stuff, things that I would not maybe have allowed myself to do before, because I was like, I need to be working. I should be working. I need to be making money. This thing over here is not solid. I got to make more money. Like I don't have the financial support of a husband anymore, whatever that is. So, um, but now I've kind of relaxed into, um, just a nice flow with work and things are going well. And like things are always changing and I'm always interested in elevating, but I don't feel the pressure of like,

Starting point is 01:09:48 I need a seven figure business or I need a multiple seven figure business. It's like, cool, I can relax and enjoy this. And you know, he has days off where he doesn't have to do anything. Like for me, I don't have days off, right. I'm on social media every day. I'm creating content, whatever. And so I've taken more days off. I'm like, I'm only taking weekends now. Um, yeah. And just connecting on different things and learning about new things that I hadn't really allowed myself to, cause I would have seen, you know, skateboarding down the boardwalk as like a waste of time. Right. Cause it's like, I should be more. And so, yeah, it's been a nice change. It feels disorienting. Cause I'm like, fuck, should I be working more? Cause you know, in entrepreneur stuff, like the more you work, the more money you make.

Starting point is 01:10:26 And for me, it's like, cool, I'm actually allowing myself to be bounded around that and having a lot of fun and learning a lot of new skills. That's really cool. I'm in a place too, fitness wise, where like, and I want to ask you this again, this is kind of a selfish question, because I want the answer for myself personally. But as somebody who has been through a lot of very like regimented training, you've had a lot of that in your your past. And obviously, you're still a fit person. And you still have a lot of like physical movement and exercise in your life. But you're saying you're kind of learning these new skills and kind of having fun with it. And there's not necessarily like an end game. Like I don't want to be like a professional surfer. I'm just doing it because it's fun. And it's like, I'm outside, I'm having a good time and I'm with my boyfriend or whatever.

Starting point is 01:11:09 Do you still have a kind of like regimented or like goal oriented fitness routine? Or is it really just like intuitive doing what your body feels like? I mean, there's no goal to be honest. Like my only goal is my clothes to fit. Like literally that's in like enjoy my life and enjoy my workouts. Like I want to feel strong it's interesting that you brought up plant medicines because we uh danny jay and i who's my podcast host we actually got an opportunity to go down to costa rica and do um and i a week with ayahuasca and it is yeah is this the rhythmia

Starting point is 01:11:41 the rhythmia yeah you did it already or you're going to? Yeah. It really, again, kind of felt out of my self-concept. Like I didn't really feel like you mentioned that guy you interviewed who was like, I felt like I needed this. Like I didn't feel like I needed shit. I was basically like, I'm good. I don't need this. Like I'm solid. I worked through my bullshit. I'm a pretty aware person, but Danny really wanted to do it. And part of our doing the trade was that we had to go down there and we had to interview some of the staff and facilitators. So she wanted to do it. I was like, cool, we'll do it.

Starting point is 01:12:10 And if anyone doesn't know, it's kind of similar to what you had mentioned where you have this like purging, right? So there's either like you vomit or you have to use the restroom or you laugh or you cry or whatever. And I could find myself when I was doing it, I only went two of the four nights. We did a whole podcast episode on it, but, um, I felt myself like feeling as though I was going to be pulled under and I would have to purge. And I just shut that shit down.

Starting point is 01:12:32 I was like, nope, I'm not doing it. I'm not going there. And so I kind of denied myself the experience because, and I had this insight of like, wow, I really value my physical body a lot more than I, like the idea of being out of control physically freaked me the fuck out. Versus like, you know, I was ready for like the insights, the mindset stuff. Like I can handle all that. That's cool. But like the idea of like puking my guts out for three hours, it was like a no for me. And so I really had this insight of like, wow, like my physical strength and my physical self is so important to me. And I derive such a

Starting point is 01:13:03 sense of affirmation from that. So for me, weight training is something I obviously like that's the cornerstone of my training. I'll always find a way to do things differently. So I kind of hated exercise or long duration cardio when I was competing, doing two to three hours a day of long duration cardio, it's ridiculous, like moderate intensity. So now I hardly ever do much cardio. But for me feeling strong in the gym, liking my workouts, being in the gym for a minimal amount of time. I don't like, I get like mentally exhausted if I'm in the gym for longer than an hour. So usually I'm in there for like 40, 45

Starting point is 01:13:34 minutes tops, um, feeling strong. And I just don't want to buy new clothes. I want like my clothes to fit. I want them to fit like, and, and be fine. And of course, you know, eating moderately, your weight fluctuates maybe five pounds or so up and down throughout the year. I don't stress about that to me I'm, just like it is what it is. Do my clothes fit? Do I feel good? Do I feel in my power? Am I able to lift weights? Am I getting you know, am I strong? I don't need to be like am I getting stronger? I'm like am I strong? Um, maybe that will change, you know, I think Epsom flows I kind of thought about maybe doing a power lifting competition but I I value autonomy so much that like the idea of being on a program made me like, I just don't want to buy new jeans. All right. So I'm just going to like, crush their lifestyle. So I don't have to. Yeah, but I still struggle with it.

Starting point is 01:14:30 Because I, I love to sort of be in the gym. And I like to do things and be strong and kind of keep progressing and learning new skills. So similar to you, like, I'm always trying kind of like new sports and things like that. But I still kind of feel like I'm, maybe it's a hold off from the bodybuilding days, but I still kind of like, I'm itching for like some kind of like a goal. Like I want to kind of, I want to be working towards something. Cause I kind of feel like I'll always go to the gym and like lift weights and throw weights around cause I enjoy it, but I want there to be a reason for what I'm doing. And I guess that's why I've been seeking out things like boxing or jujitsu. Cause I'm like, okay, I'm learning a skill here, but I, I, there's still a part of me that feels like, well, I should enter a competition or I should do something so that

Starting point is 01:15:10 there's an end game to it. And I mean, I guess that's okay. Right. I mean, when, when do you, when do you know if that kind of attitude is dysfunctional or hurting you versus like, well, you're just kind of competitive and you just want to have, you just want to have a goal. That's okay. How do you know the difference? I think it's human nature to want to have, I think we'd feel purposeless if we didn't have something we were working towards. Right. So like, otherwise wise, the point of, of really like going on, if there's not like some purpose to it. So I think the purpose is what we give it. For me, it just hasn't been in a physical pursuit in a really long time. Again, having gone to

Starting point is 01:15:43 extremes the way that I did, it was just for me, I almost have, I have like, not only do I not want to do it, but I have like an aversion to it. I don't want that the reality of the person I was back then, I don't want to be that person again, but that doesn't mean I don't have goals and things I'm working at my business. I certainly have like, you know, I need to feel engaged, but the typical engagement for me happens in business now or relationships. Like for example, you know, especially going through the stuff in my personal life, like I want to be on a different level of communication with people in my life. So maybe for me,

Starting point is 01:16:14 the competition or the thing that I'm working towards is having more honest conversations with people in my life, having more boundaries, being able to communicate those effectively, getting better at sharing my truth and listening to other people's truth in my life. And so that's one way. And the other way is through business. Like, okay, what does that look like? How can I impact more people? What's my goal here? It's not necessarily a monetary goal, but it's an impact goal. So cool. How can I create products and services? How can I create something that is needed in the marketplace? For me, those are all mini challenges. And so I don't know that it's dysfunctional actually at all. In fact, I think like it's

Starting point is 01:16:49 totally normal. And I think all of us, if we don't have something we're working towards, whether it's a job goal or a relationship goal or a physical goal, I think we are going to be listless. I think, you know, there's some like nihilism there. And so I don't think it's dysfunctional. I think you know if it's dysfunctional, if youal. There's a difference between doing something that's hard and doing something that makes you miserable. So I always come back to that. Am I doing something hard and I want to push through or am I doing shit that is making me absolutely miserable for some other reason, like obligation or guilt or fear of isolation or embarrassment or whatever. So I ask myself those questions. So I think it only becomes dysfunctional if it becomes compulsive. Does that make sense?

Starting point is 01:17:33 Yes, that makes a lot of sense. And I completely echo that too, because I've said that even about bodybuilding. I mean, we don't need to go down this path again, because I feel like we've all talked about it ad nauseum. But with the bodybuilding and the competition thing, especially if you're doing it on an amateur level, like so many people like they get you get so caught up. And you're so neurotic and obsessed and miserable. And it's like, there's there's not even like you're not even getting money for this. Like this isn't your career. This is something that you entered for fun. Like if you entered like a co ed volleyball team, and you were this miserable doing it, would you keep for fun. Like if you entered like a co-ed volleyball team and you were this miserable doing it, would you keep doing it? Like that's silly. Like it's, you know, so I mean,

Starting point is 01:18:11 I guess it's, again, it's like being able to be subjective and look at it and yeah. And the difference between things that are challenging and hard and things that are making you miserable because life's way too short for that shit. Like way too short. Okay. That's, that's good. That makes me feel better. I need to, I'm going to, I'm going to go, I'm going to go enter some competition or match. I will be there on the side cheering you on. Yeah. Beautiful. I love it. I will. I might hold you to that because I might be wrestling somebody sometime soon. Um, okay. So I don't want to keep you forever. I could, but, um, I did want to kind of bring it back a little bit um to the work that you're doing and coaching and working with fitness professionals and maybe just like a couple sort of like

Starting point is 01:18:52 Higher level questions about the actual work that you're doing and then i'll i'll let you go and enjoy the rest of your day but we we talked a lot about the authenticity part of of um telling your story and promoting yourself and marketing yourself and putting yourself out there in the world for people to see. And I think that's a big part of the fitness professional online world. But what are some other kind of just really high level general terms? What are some things that are either the biggest challenges or the biggest questions or maybe the biggest things that people are doing wrong when they're trying to start their

Starting point is 01:19:29 own business in this industry and they're coming? Honestly, I feel like my, the job that I do the most is expectation management. You know, building an online personal brand is very similar to any sort of like body transformation journey that you're on. So if you're coaching someone in person and they're like, the weight's not coming on fast enough and you know, I'm doing everything right and it's not working. And like these kinds of fast fixes and kind of instant gratification, it just pops up in business too. So I think that most of my job is getting people to continue to show up to

Starting point is 01:20:03 the process. I want people, because I know that if they keep showing up to the process, they're going to be successful. It's like anything else, right? They keep engaging with the process. They keep uncovering and investigating. They keep taking more action. I always said action is a great elucidator.

Starting point is 01:20:17 So like literally the more decisions that you make and the more action you choose to take, even if it's messy action, even if it's quote, wrong action, you're going to open up and start to see more angles and now have a show of evidence that you can trust yourself that you have. So I think about it like the very first time you did a fitness competition, right? You didn't know like how it worked logistically. You were like, okay, but like, when do I pump up? And okay, but when do I get my tan on? And like, when do I put my suit on? And how can I find a place to stand backstage? You had all these questions, but then you went ahead and did the show and you kind of saw like, oh, okay, I have plenty of time to pump up. And okay, yeah, I know there's backstage over here. And okay,

Starting point is 01:20:56 I know how I'm going to do this. And like, you have the experience and the same thing with building your online business. We can sit around and go like, well, what if I don't make this thing? Or what if it doesn't happen? Or what if I don't get the clients? What if I launched this thing and no one buys it? I'm like, cool, you need to do a launch. You need to do your first launch to just get the lay of the land, just as if you were doing a show and like, okay, cool. Now I've done one zero expectations. How can I get better? And so really when we talk about building your online business, you have to, and we can talk about some more tactical stuff here in a second, but number one thing is tenacity and resiliency. Like you have to stay in it. They usually say that it takes, you know, three to five years to get your business to be viable. And I find that

Starting point is 01:21:36 that is true simply because most people will drop out before three years. People don't know how to do it. It's just, it's too much of a head game, especially with social media, where we see the numbers that we're getting. It's instant kind of affirmation of like, this posted well, this post didn't do well. And actually like, you're the same as me. We have a shitload of content on the internet. So like, for me, I don't look at that stuff anymore. Cause I'm like, what's next? There's always a next thing, right? Thousands of posts and hundreds of blogs. I don't get so caught up in the myopia of this post didn't do well. But if you're just starting and you've three months in and you only have 50 posts, everyone is going to feel really important.

Starting point is 01:22:09 Everything's going to feel really big. And so you have to get a show of evidence and you have to build a body of work. And by nature, we are in the trust business, which means that people are going to purchase from us if they trust us, they know us, they like us and trust by nature takes time to earn. So we might be like, I put the program out, I created the course, they know us, they like us and trust by nature takes time to earn. So we might be like, I put the program out, I created the course, I wrote the, like I did the thing. Why isn't anyone buying? It's because you haven't built trust yet. And I, so I think really, this is a tenacity game more than anything. So on some level I go to as a coach, I'm like, cool,

Starting point is 01:22:39 how can I keep my people showing up? That's my job. My P my job is people showing up. So what does that take? It takes a level of enjoyment and a level of detaching from outcomes. You have to go, you have to look at it clinically. You kind of have to be like, cool. You know, you want affirmation that you're doing well. So like what, what are you, but what are you going to be monitoring? You monitoring likes and shares and comments. We know that that's not an indication of how you're doing. I have plenty of clients who have like maybe 500 followers on Instagram and are making $50,000 a year off personal online coaching, but they developed relationships. So it really comes down to, are you willing to stick it out? Are you willing to see this through clinically versus like taking everything super personally?

Starting point is 01:23:21 I think as women, it's kind of a generalization is if something doesn't go well, we blame ourselves versus looking at the process is like, cool, maybe I'm just not good at marketing yet. Maybe I haven't been doing this long yet. Like maybe I need to get better at writing yet. Right. So like, we don't look at it that we take it on and make it like no one wants us when it's really just like, no, you haven't communicated the value. So try to remove the emotion, try to stick with it. And also like on some level, you have to like it, you have to enjoy social media on some level. And so if you're like, I hate social media, I'm like, well, no, this isn't the, this isn't going to work for you. You have to be on social media on some level, right? You have to have some way that you're putting out content.

Starting point is 01:23:57 And if you hate it, we need to figure out a way that you can actually like it better. And so enjoyment is a compliance tool. A clinical mind is a compliance tool. And gratitude. What am I learning? How am I doing? I'm four months into building my online business. It is insulting. And I hate to say this, but this is the truth. I've been doing this for 10 years. It is insulting when someone who's been doing it for four months is complaining that it's not happening fast enough. That's a personal insult to me. Are you fucking shitting me? It's like anything, anything where you have to put in work to become an expert at it. It is insulting that you think

Starting point is 01:24:30 you'd be an expert and that things would be insured. Some people have flash in the pan success. Some people overnight success, but that's very, very small, less than 1% of people. So you have to decide it's not like a full-time job where you just get a job and you get, start getting a paycheck every two weeks. Are you willing to do what it takes to ramp it up willing to do shit for free willing to give away a ton of content willing to do the work to go to conferences to read books listen to podcasts to engage yourself in the process and it's a lot it is a job but you have to treat it like it's already viable before it is and that's what's really hard is we'll treat it like a hobby and then it will stay a hobby but if we go okay cool i want to build my online business. I'm going to have dedicated

Starting point is 01:25:08 time for this every day. I'm on social media every day, every day. I'm creating content, whether that's I'm blogging, I'm doing podcasts, I'm doing video, I'm doing YouTube, whatever it is, I need to have consistency, even though it's not making money right now, I need to treat it like it's already making money. And that's not for everybody. I love too, that you make the distinction about social media being a very, very important tool, but that social media popularity is not a direct correlation with how successful you may be in the actual real world. I think some people kind of mistake social media for the real world instead of it being a very useful, very important tool in a lot of what you're doing. But as we all know, it can also be very

Starting point is 01:25:56 misleading. And there are people who have 100,000 followers that are paid for and you can tell by the engagement or the kinds of content that they're posting that they're not, these are not a hundred thousand, you know, diehard fans. It's, it's like they're like bots. And then there are people who are much more kind of conservative and there are maybe smaller and you look at them and think like, oh, well, they're not really a big deal yet. They've only got however many followers. And it's like, well, they're actually, they're doing real work and they're, they're successful and they're happy offline. And this is just one of the tools that they're using. I think that is an important distinction. And you don't need a ton of followers. So I tell I, I, so I work mainly with beginners, which is a really tough audience, such a tough audience because they haven't had any success yet.

Starting point is 01:26:35 So like literally because confidence is area specific, right? So they might be confident that they're a kick-ass mom. They might be like, you know, crushing it at home, but now they're learning a new skill. And I think that they think it's just going to be come naturally to them, or they should be able to figure it out, or they should be, they should be more successful than they are. So I manage a lot of expectations early on versus someone who's been doing internet business like yourself for years. Like, you know, you already have a bunch of wins. You know that you're good. You know that you can do better. Like you have some evidence that you're good. So beginners are really tough, but I, that's what I specialize in. Um, and I think that there's a, there is a huge disservice when we see people

Starting point is 01:27:13 with huge followings, either who bought them, which is very common or people with huge followings not making any money because they don't know how to monetize. Right. So I have a lot of clients who, like I said, maybe have two, 3000 followers on Instagram, which, you know, relatively is a relatively small amount, but they're making six figures online doing high ticket coaching. And so it is possible. And I know a lot of people have hundreds of thousands of followers and are not monetizing. So it's a lot of smoke and mirrors, just so people know. And I think it's really important to kind of talk about that. And to your point, find ways to feel affirmed and approved in your own life outside of the

Starting point is 01:27:49 numbers. I think that is a huge trap that we can, we can fall into. If you find yourself being like, I need to get my numbers up. I need to get my likes up. Why isn't this working? Like that is misery. So like take a break from it. Maybe take a couple of days off, maybe like have some boundaries around being on your

Starting point is 01:28:04 phone and then come back to it with a better perspective. Spend some time with your friends and family in real life, have conversations. You know, some of my best online content comes from real conversations I'm having with people, with either clients or friends or family members, where we're talking about a book or a concept or, you know, discussing going out to dinner, having a couple of glasses of wine and like talking, having an intellectual conversation that turns into really great content. And so you need to use your FaceTime with the people in your life to, to figure out ways to be interesting on the internet and have interesting, creative, innovative topics and arguments that you're sharing. Well, first of all, I just want to thank you for giving me a master class because i literally just

Starting point is 01:28:48 got to sit here for you know 80 minutes and ask you questions about business and being awesome so that's great but i do know one thing i know from podcasting is that if i have these questions and i have these concerns and whatever other people do too so i i feel confident that people listening are going to get as much out of this as i did. But it really does seem like some of the kind of key themes that kept coming up over and over again and with success in business, but I think in life and with anything you try, you mentioned repeatedly, it's about gratitude and resilience and showing up. And those are things that can be applied to literally anything in your life, whether it's relationships or building a business or achieving some fitness goal or whatever it is you want

Starting point is 01:29:33 to do with your life. It's being consistent and doing the work and showing up and being there and being there for yourself and being grateful to have that opportunity and have the resilience to keep doing it. And I mean, it's easier said than done. It's easy to say it, it's harder to do it. But that's, that's the answer. There is no magic. And I think that's what's hard is it's like anything else, you know, I think sometimes we'll look at online business, or we'll look at a diet, or we'll look at training program as like being the magic kind of pill, right? It's like, okay,

Starting point is 01:29:59 this is finally this finally had the solution. And we feel safe, because we go, okay, I'm just going to hire Jill, and she's going to do it for okay, I'm just going to hire Jill and she's going to do it for me or I'm going to hire her and she knows the secret. And it's like, the secret is there is no secret. And I know that sounds so cliche, but still I talk about it a lot because I run up against, I'm talking to clients every single week who are constantly having to manage their expectations. And by the way, it's not just beginners. It's people who are, you know, have been in the industry or been doing something for a

Starting point is 01:30:22 long time that that can like creep up on you and you have to go, okay, I have to adjust my expectations again. And so I think the more resilient you can be and the more, I call it failure expectation, which is the expectation that shit's not going to go smoothly. That's my expectation. I just launched a program last week. And of course, there was a shitload of bugs, things that happen, like tech stuff happens, people don't get their stuff, whatever. And we have to put out those fires.

Starting point is 01:30:46 But I always expect that. And I think when you expect that, that's a compliance tool. You go, okay, cool. I know it was gonna be perfect. So it allows me to stay in the game longer, because I didn't expect it was gonna be perfect. Well, that's a resiliency thing, too, is is like, it's almost like negative visualization in a way, which sounds like a more negative thing than it actually is. And it's that it's anticipating

Starting point is 01:31:09 that things, I think you said this even earlier in the conversation, it's like, know that things aren't going to be easy, know that things are going to come up and challenges are going to happen and how you react to them and how you roll with them is going to be a measure of your success more than like freaking out or just hoping that nothing bad ever happens happens because that's not real life but i think we tend to catastrophize a lot more and so it's like oh my god if one thing doesn't work what well then we catastrophize into like well then i shouldn't even be doing this and who am i to do this and like we make it this like big thing when it really is just simply like what's the solution so one of the rules that i have with my clients is like hey this, this is a safe space to vent. I understand that if you're doing anything different, or you're

Starting point is 01:31:48 learning a new skill, or you're trying to get better at something, there's always going to be a period of frustration. I get that it's valid. All the emotions you're feeling are 100% valid. And this is a safe space to come and talk about that stuff. But I expect on the back end of that vent, that there's a solution or an action step that you're willing to try as a result. We have to be action oriented. We have to be solution oriented. So one of my mantras is I can see it as a pain or I can see it as a puzzle. And that has been a huge resiliency and tenacity tool for me is going, cool, like things are just different.

Starting point is 01:32:20 What's the solution now? The old way is not working. What's going to work now and being a clinical investigator versus taking on the emotion and making it this big thing that it really, it's just not. I would hazard a guess that the reason why maybe women tend to catastrophize things and also make things more personal when, you know, the inevitable things come up or problems occur, you know, failures and they take it more personal when, you know, the inevitable things come up or problems occur, you know, failures, and they take it more personally than men is because I feel like a lot of times in, in business, especially, but in things like this, when men mess up, it's because there

Starting point is 01:32:56 was a mess up. And when women mess up, it's because they're a woman and they messed up. And like, so we do tend to kind of take that more like it's something we did wrong, where people aren't going to immediately, you know, it's like, well, women and their emotions, and they take things personally, and there wasn't enough confidence there, they didn't have enough experience or wherever, where it just tends to things, our mistakes tend to become more gendered, you know, like where when if it's a man that fucked up, it's just like, well, you know, it was a fuck up, let's move on. So I don't know. I mean, maybe I feel like there's a lot that we, the two sides could learn from each other in terms of sort of empathy and understanding, but maybe gaining a little bit of that, like male confidence would probably be good for.

Starting point is 01:33:35 And I think, I think emotions are valid. So I never like, you know, I love like greeting stoicism and like kind of all of that kind of stuff and being like really steeped in reality, but at the same time time and i am like very clinical when it comes to like things are happening but i do think that having a period of time where you just really own the emotions of it and talk about them and state them out loud you need that in order to move through them versus being like it's okay it's okay it's fine no it's fine fine and like constantly pushing stuff down you're like actually it's not fine and the fact that it's not fine is fine. And I think, you know, a moment where you need to validate that and then, then you can move on a little bit more quicker. I think you can get back to the clinical experience and

Starting point is 01:34:13 being more objective if you're willing to acknowledge the emotions first and move on. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point. That's, that's the part i need to work on the like no i don't have emotions it's fine let's move on because you know that shit's gonna boil up at some point it's like you're a ticking time bomb like you gotta get that out all right that's that's a part two conversation um what uh what is the new program that you just launched is that the one that i'm doing program called physique sessions and it's actually a fitness nutrition program uh for six weeks that we're just essentially teaching moderation 365, which is my nutrition philosophy. And we're doing physique, physique finishers, which is a metabolic conditioning program that I put together, we're doing them together. So

Starting point is 01:34:53 it's basically accountability. But no, all the business stuff happens on the second half of the year. So I'm actually getting ready to open up my mastermind this summer and do more business focused stuff for the second half of the year. It's going to be fun. Yeah. Cool. Cool. And what about more travel or speaking engagements or anything else coming up for you? So part of my mastermind is on my cap it at 20 women and they're all doing pretty much doing online business full time. This is not my beginner program. This is for people who have been doing it for two years. And we meet four or five times a year in different locations. So we've done a couple in LA. We are going to Austin in September. We're actually going to Tulum in two weeks. So I'm super pumped for that. I'm taking my whole mastermind down to Mexico for like a three-day

Starting point is 01:35:36 kind of like business and personal development immersion. And then my boyfriend will come down and he'll stay with me for a couple of days. And then we're just doing some, he's actually going back to paramedic school in September. So we're actually doing like a ton of trips between now and September, just before he like has to be in school for nine months. So we're going to do a road trip around California, which I've never done. He's never done. So it's like, cool, let's go see like the Koyas and like all the kind of random places

Starting point is 01:36:00 in California that we haven't done by road trip. So we'll take my puppy and do that. I'm doing a lot more things just for fun in the last year. So it's been good for me. So a lot of little trips coming up, but in my best friend, Danny J, she lives in Vegas. So a lot of times I'll go to Vegas like five, six times a year just for, I don't know, I always say like, feel attractive because sometimes I just get, you know, working from home where I can sweat pants all the time. I'm showering four days. I'm like, okay, I want to go to Vegas and like get decked. And I do like to get dressed up. So yeah. I 100% relate to that. I'm like, I literally wear a sweatshirt all day, every day. If I can put on

Starting point is 01:36:37 heels, like once every six months, like I'm really like, I'm going for it. That's so funny. Yeah, I love it. I love this like hashtag summer of fun that you have planned. And it is also very good to have a BFF in Vegas. Of course, one in LA doesn't hurt either. So you can like go to cool places to meet with people. But that sounds amazing. Jill, thank you so much for taking the time. Like you, you are really a force in this industry. Like I'm so glad that I met you Like I'm so glad that I met you. I'm so glad that I get to learn from you. And I think you're doing, you really are doing important stuff and your kind of bravery and getting out there and telling us your story.

Starting point is 01:37:15 Like, like I said, it's something I'm, I'm struggling with and you're showing me that it's okay and that it's possible and you can, you can survive and be honest with yourself and with other people. And that's a big deal. So thank you for doing that. And thanks for all the work that you do. It's awesome. Tell my story and just be here. And I would love to connect with anyone who listens

Starting point is 01:37:32 and get your feedback and all that good stuff and let me know when it's up and I'll be sure to send it out to my crew. Definitely. And just remind our listeners where they can go to follow you on social media and where they can go to your website and learn about all the stuff that you do at jill fit on insta and then jill coleman on facebook are the best two places um if you guys want to get like any announcements about programs and products that are launching like different

Starting point is 01:37:58 ways to um to work with me in some capacity go ahead to jillfit.com and just sign up um put your email address in anywhere on the site and you'll get all the latest announcements. I usually email my list like, I don't know, once or once or twice a month just with like what's going on and some value and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, that'd be great. Oh, shoot me a DM. I love chatting people. And there's a ton of free stuff on your website too for people who want to just kind of like play with a couple things and peruse maybe before they uh they jump in so they can do that awesome all right jill enjoy your summer of fun and we will definitely stay in touch in a boxing pad

Starting point is 01:38:35 yes yes i love it all right everybody for listening. Thanks again to my friends at beekeepers naturals for providing me with healthy products, nootropics, uh, healthy throat spray, delicious, delicious, healthy, raw honey products that keep me from getting sick and also keep me from eating cookies. You guys are lifesavers. Uh, and if you guys want to get in on some of that action, you can head to beekeepers naturals.com forward slash muscle Maven, uh, and try out some of my favorite products. I've got them listed there, or you could just use the discount muscle Maven on anything you want to buy there and get 15% off. They're the best. All right. Next week, I'm talking to another inspirational badass. Her name is Kara Lazowskis. And I'm just going to go

Starting point is 01:39:23 ahead and say that she is a founding member of the No Excuses Club because Kara had a crazy story. She had a lung removed when she was a toddler. So she grew up at a pretty significant, I guess, physical disadvantage. And despite that, became a very accomplished athlete, got into some really high level athletics before dealing with some injuries that put her in a pretty dark place, developed an eating disorder, went through a lot, a lot of struggles before she figured out how to get herself out of it and dedicates herself now to coaching and training and helping other people become stronger, fitter, happier, healthier people. It's a really impressive story. And yeah, I mean, I was pretty flabbergasted. I didn't know. All I knew really was that she was just

Starting point is 01:40:10 super fit. She was a contestant on the Titan Games with The Rock. I don't know if you guys have seen that show, but basically now I'm one degree of separation from my lifelong crush, Dwayne Johnson. Thanks, Kara. Anyway, she's got a fantastic story.

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Barbell Shrugged - How a recovering perfectionist can find health and balance (and still be fit af) with Jill Coleman — Muscle Maven Radio Episode #18

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