Barbell Shrugged - How Much You Should Snatch and Clean & Jerk w/ Justin Thacker - 225

Episode Date: September 7, 2016

Justin Thacker returns to discuss how to build a strong weightlifting community.  How to program for groups.  How to build a meathead's playground, and how much you should be able to snatch and clean and jerk.

Hey, this is Rich Froning. You're listening to Barbell Shrugged. For the video version, go to barbellshrugged.com. Are you filming it? Probably. Is everything on? Do you have all the hard drive memory? Is everything good to go? Are you backing this up as we're filming it? If we shoot this episode. Can you back this up as we film it?

I can edit it. Is it a prerequisite here to be a coach to look insanely jacked and have no hair? Yes. I feel like every coach I've seen is massive with very to little no hair. It's an army of ass kickers. I mean, you get efficient here with time management and realizing not to have to mess with your hair. It saves you a few seconds a day in the morning so you get to work faster

and I have to mess with it between sets. I love it. The other thing, too, is you walk in and it's built like another gym that you've been to where maybe it's like a Globo facility or whatnot, but instead of it being like kind of weird techno, Pantera's playing. Right. And it's so great. It's like, all right, this is the gym I'm going to walk into to get strong.

Yeah. All right. So where are we? We are in St. Louis. What's up, guys? Welcome to Barbell Shrug. I'm your host, Mike McGoldick, here with Alex Macklin, CTP behind the camera.

Word. And our very special guest, Justin Thacker. Hello. We've had him on. How many times have you been on the show now? This is number 12, I think. Number 12. Fourth episode.

Fourth episode. What number was it? I think you were on like 34, maybe. Wow. CTP here. He's got the archive. How many do you have now? 223.

It was just up just today, or this past week. Wow. So pretty crazy, huh? I'm not great with numbers but that's like you've been on like 10 of our shows it's not too bad fantastic but i've never interviewed you so i'm very excited i'm excited to ask a lot of questions and we were kind of like putting our heads together driving up like what could we ask this guy about i'm like oh man i mean i got a million things so we're just gonna shoot the shit today i can't wait thanks for thanks for taking

the time so my pleasure uh for those that don't know who justin is um tell us a little bit about the gym your background you know let these people know who you are. Okay. Well, this gym is very unique for a reason. I got into personal training around 1999 and did a lot of personal training. I was in school in St. Louis University to be a dietician and spent about nine years at college there and spent all those years building up a clientele as a trainer, and did a couple different degrees, and I was a competitive weightlifter for many years from 1999 until I tried to be to this day, but it kind of dried up around 2007 when I opened the gym. But it started off with more of this sort of environment where you have your private sector, personal training,

weight loss preventative health type of thing, and that's really where things started and kicked off. And from there, as time went on, we were able to afford more building space and crossfit exploded and more people were interested in weightlifting i was like wow i mean i don't need these bumper plates and platforms just for myself other people actually use this so it's actually a nice the fact that this can be a business move is outstanding so time went on and then we started in the new building we added uh team lab which would be our weightlifting area, which started off with about five platforms and exploded now to 24. And then we got into competitive CrossFit, and that required a lot more space.

And now we have a whole different section for that. So controlling the music is actually the hardest thing. Oh, yeah. I get complaints all day. You get people like, can we change to something like techno and EDM or some rap? I have answered more music complaint emails than anything. No way. You pretty much keep it on this, right?

If it was up to me, it would be like classic rock metal type. I want everyone to be happy. It's a nice focused sort of vibe and tune typically, and they don't have to like it. But it's like I always notice, hey, you just did that listening to Metallica. It wasn't whatever crap. But people have to be comfortable and relax and have fun. So it's a happy medium. I try to keep from, you know, I've got clients in their eighties and one section to the younger population over here. So, so when they all listen to Pandera, it's a great day. Yeah, for sure. So do you work

primarily with the weightlifters or do you kind of just go around to all the different, uh, modalities that you got over here? So these days, you know, hands-on, it's mostly with weightlifters and competitive CrossFitters, and I still do a little bit. Like, say, every Saturday morning, I coach the regular CrossFit class. But so, you know, as time has gone on, I did all the training. I mean, from everything program we've done,

I've done that training and developed a model and system and program, and then developed our trainers to help do that system. And so it became impossible to stay on top of that and grow the business so getting an awesome staff of trainers is really was the only way to do this so I do a lot of work on that end and the back end and help them kind of make their jobs and lives easier so as I've peeled out of the personal training I've peeled out of CrossFit now you know the weightlifting thing it's it's you have to do it because you love it because it's really you know

it's not for money and it's it really if if anything, it's at odds with the business success. So that, you know, I've got a lot of good coaches there. And it's really something I need to pull away from. But it's just you love it so much it's hard to get rid of, you know. So you say you're doing your coaching CrossFit. And what was that kind of like transitioning from? Because you come from pretty much a strict weightlifting background. Like what was that like?

It was interesting because, you know, at first it's like what is all this you know and i kind of have some apprehension what is all this shit what's a thruster so i had apprehension with it first but like as i watched it and saw who's doing it and how they're doing it who's coaching it was like is it really pretty simple and it's not a big jump from any other sports performance sort of programming and training so uh you know i gave it some more time and attention. This was in the early days too, though. And then I started coaching a lot of boot camp stuff, and there's a lot of things that I had done, you know,

as a wrestler and things like that over the years. So it wasn't a big stretch. It was just applying the specific elements, you know, doing the thruster, doing the burpee and all that. I did loads of burpees as a wrestler, so that stuff was not a big reach. But adding barbell movements like the snatch and clincher to this was kind of the biggest thing and so i had years of experience actually coaching boot camps and it was actually taking them and applying the worlds together and it was pretty pretty seamless for the most part it was just you know really getting into the culture was

the most interesting thing really uh but you know it's always at a divide of quality and quantity and trying to get people to make the best decisions for, you know, what they should be doing with the weight each day. And, like, we have, you know, confusing CrossFit as a sport or a fitness program is really where people always get in trouble. Yeah, it's two different things. So as a fitness program, it's, like, very easy to, like, hey, this is fun and, like, you should not do that. It's going to mess you up.

And we can move properly. We don't have to have the best frame time. But it's a very easy thing to do. When it becomes a sport, you know, all bets are off. And it's like, even with weightlifting, it can be very, very safe. Yeah. But that's interesting because, yeah, I mean, it is complex.

But you just said it was like very simple for you. Is that because you just, you already kind of knew how to kind of design programming? It was programming is pretty straightforward. And then it just, as you know, energy systems and how to prioritize workouts and like, when am i going to do my lower up heavy stuff and higher skill movements when am i going to do my multiple rep less skill type movements and my conditioning stuff that stuff's all pretty strength conditioning 101 you know so this dude by the way

is like a master wizard yeah yeah we filmed the product with them not too long ago on barbell shark.com uh world-class weightlifting. And this dude, I filmed it. So this dude comes in, and we only had, what was it, Justin, like two days to film? Two days. And this dude talked for two days. And I was sitting there with the camera just like, holy shit. I remember being there during that.

And he never stopped. I was trying to train quietly in the back. Set the bars down. You and I were eye to eye for two days. I was blown away that you could just. Oh, go ahead. I think you were sleeping at the time. You weren't even weren't even reading slides he was just going i don't want to derail too much i want to get back to asking you more questions about the program because i want

everyone to learn about you as a coach i mean i'm very curious as well and how you do things but for those of you that are listening to this you need to go watch this video because you've got to see some of the video of this place right now when you walk into this gym it's unlike anything i've ever seen you walk in you know there's's a reception desk. We're in a big hallway right now. And then connected to this hallway is like five different gyms. Like gym one is cardio room. There's treadmills, ellipticals. There's like tons of awesome stuff. Gym two is the CrossFit gym. It's pretty massive as well. I don't know. How many square feet is the CrossFit gym? I think it's around 5,600. Right. Like the size of most gyms. Yeah, that's huge. And then we've got a massive weightlifting gym the biggest weightlifting gym i've ever stepped you've got more platforms

i've ever how many platforms are there 24 24 platforms it's insane and then over here on the right which is basically half the gym is i don't know what do we call this bro bro says like it's insane every machine you want every every realm of strength training, fitness is here. It's really cool. Man, it makes you feel like a kid. Like, I just want to go play. I know. It's like a meathead's playground.

I was telling CTP earlier, I was like, I'm going to set a clock, and every 30 minutes I'm going to go from one room to the next and just do something different. You never get bored. And we blend kind of, you know, our training philosophy kind of, you know, that's why CrossFit wasn't a big jump. But, like, a lot of the philosophies kind of mold into one, and it was always the same philosophy, just that we had more toys to integrate.

So if you mastered the squats, basic squat and deadlift motions, you might earn an Olympic lift. And those progressions all made sense for our general population. And when CrossFit came about, hey, you start doing wads and things of that nature. So really it was seamless. We also have, before I forget, Strongman down in the bottom. So you've got to check that out for you. Oh, cool.

And the underground. Oh, shit, there's more? Even didn't even know there was another room. We've got to hide those guys. So what's great about this is I think I've seen that about a lot of gyms that I go to, especially with someone who's very active still in the gym and the programming, is that you can kind of see a lot about their coaching styles and experience based on the equipment and how their gyms are set up. And I love seeing that where, obviously obviously you understand all realms of it.

It's not just weightlifting. It's not just, you know, CrossFit only. Like you see all of it and you see everyone's needs and you try to bring it all together. It's really cool. Yeah, it's really interesting that you say that because I've been stuck as a weightlifting coach for the last few years, just gotten very deep into it.

And, you know, every time I coach, say, a CrossFit class or a regular client, I'm just so distressed. It's like this is what it's about. It's fitness. It's enjoying this. And it's just, you know, the athletes get so hell bent on their performance and make it into the games or, you know, the nationals, et cetera. Like it is very stressful. And like, I become a different person. I realized as a coach is like, look, this is dangerous, hard stuff. And I'm very serious. And I have this, this look on my face, everyone around here thinks I'm nuts now. And they're, they're scared of me. I think like when, when I go into this other world, it's like, it's different. I'm a completely different I have this look on my face. Everyone around here thinks I'm nuts now and they're scared of me.

When I go into this other world, it's like it's different. I'm a completely different person. It's very fun, rewarding, and as a coach, it's very rewarding to do that. You can change gears often. Yeah. So if a stranger walked up on the street and said, what do you do, what would you tell them? I'm the custodian here.

It's a hard question to ask. So I start with just saying a gym owner. I keep it simple because it's really whatever. I i could explain it but it's gonna take too long to really paint the picture but uh you know it's it's really just trying to empower people with strength conditioning performance and the same thing i've always done that has enriched my life and just share it to the diverse populations and they can take it to an extreme as they want like we have a lot of uh say masters and elderly sort of powerlifters that have competed at powerlifting meets, more masters weightlifters starting to form,

and maybe even some more masters strongman athletes. Wow. And, of course, CrossFit. Very cool. I want to go back to asking you, so if I was coming in here and I wanted to, you know, become a CrossFitter or a high-level CrossFitter, because you train some competitive CrossFit athletes, how would you train me? Like how do you train your athletes?

First I have to start with how much time do you have and what are your goals? So, and that's just really, that's gotta be understood from the get go. Cause that's going to determine, you know, how much time you have, you know, there's a million ways to program things. And my programming turns into biblical long sheets of hell. And it's, and it's because I'm trying to individualize this for each person. And it's like, there's so many, if this, then that sort of scenarios that it's and it's because i'm trying to individualize this for each person and it's like there's so many if this then that sort of scenarios that it's like well i'm trying to spell this on paper so unless i'm there in person with you i can do this really quickly but i need you to understand that so right you know to really find out what makes you tick when it makes you perform properly and how much time i have to work if you got four to six hours a day

we can do everything yeah i'm gonna make you amazing but if you've got two hours a day a few days a week well i gotta i gotta shave that down really tight and what's the most important thing yeah you might say well i gotta do this and this and this but how do we bounce balance out that ratio of the most necessary thing to make you excel or not get injured and things of that nature so once i have that then we start building on top of it how do you kind of determine that is that just more of a discussion with the athlete or yeah it, it's an assessment form that we start with. How many days per week can you train? What are your actual goals?

And then it's trying to make sure that it's realistic. Like, do you want to make it to the Olympics, but you can only train three days a week? That can be so hard to explain. It's like, we can't do this in three days a week or two-hour sessions even. You hear that a lot. I want to go to regionals, but I work a nine-to-five, and I've only got really an hour and a half a day to train. I'm like, that's going to be really hard.

And it's important, too, like you were saying, to have that communication in the front end with a client to say, like, even if you only have an hour and a half, we need to make sure you understand what's most important for you so when you get to the gym, let's say you miss a session, you know, like, what the top priority is so you don't just go do your snatches because you love snatches because that's not like your priority.

Yeah, it's a quick and slow death altogether. Yeah. Now with your, when you do train your athletes, like do you incorporate kind of all these, all these different types of activities? I try to as much as I can, but then it really comes down to though,

you know, keeping it simple first and trying to just get them to, you know, it, the more variety I throw at someone at first, let's say it's weightlifting. They, the more they're, they just don't get it. And I got to make them really understand what's a snatch them to, you know, the more variety I throw at someone at first, let's say it's weightlifting, the more they just don't get it. And I've got to make them really understand what's a snatch look like, feel like. Well, absolutely.

It's the same thing, you know, every time. And so the more variety I have at first, it doesn't help them. So as time goes on, trying to incorporate that is what I want to do, but it's not always so easy because it's like I just got them in for this amount of time. They get used to the training. I think that's all it's going to take. Well, you're not doing any other auxiliary upper body type stuff or any, you know, other auxiliary lower body stuff

that's going to keep you from getting injured and keep you strong in the long haul. And it's hard to then get people to buy into that. Yeah. Well, it can be even hard for even experienced athletes to buy into that. Like, before we got on the mic, we were talking about how, like, well, I asked you, have you ever had to fire an athlete because, athlete because you know or we were talking about like they sometimes it's hard to explain that people just don't get it like what i'm trying to do like how like what's your experience

of that oh it's trying to explain that's that's at the top of my my uh my drives me batshit crazy list yeah so really it's it's so it's about comes down to communication understanding that and they're and everyone's so unique and individual and it's when it comes to crossfit it's even more complicated but just in weightlifting it's a very monotonous sport and then the sport that the coach has got to really see the lifter and see what makes them tick and understand that they need more variety type of a lifter or what kind of loading they need to take on and what kind of changes we need to do that are very simple but very radically important uh in the short term and long run and so if i don't see them or if i don't get notes and data from their actual training to

kind of digest that like there's always like their opinion my opinion and the truth which is you're arguing at that point yeah yeah that's one of the that's one of the biggest struggles i have with some of my clients is is getting them to give me more feedback um and i'm not doing it to be annoying like i'm not trying to nag it's because I can write you a perfect program or try to write a perfect program, but if it's not stimulating you, you know, psychologically as well, like, if you're, it could be everything you need based on assessment

and numbers, but if you're bored during it, like, I need to know that because we might have to think outside of the box a little bit and keep you in tune. So are you really big on that? Like, getting feedback from your clients? Absolutely. It's frustrating because they kind of take it the wrong way sometimes. It's like, well, here's the program, and they think, like, this is gospel

and it has to be done this exact way. I need to know how it's affecting you and is this actually happening? Is this too much work, too little work? I actually had one person recently even lie to me on their notes and say they did all this stuff. I'm like, that does us no good. It doesn't help me. How did you know they lied to you?

Did they tell you? I've got cameras. Oh, shit. Holy fuck. Big brother Thacker is watching you. Why didn't you think about that? That's so much better. Go install some cameras and you can see if they're doing their mobility work or not. Wait, what'd they say when you busted them with the camera? Did you pull out the footage and be like,

let's talk about this here. I want to ask, why do you think that is? So the wrong understanding of the coach's intention and what it takes to really succeed. And there's so much that goes on with this. From tons of media and information nowadays, it's like, well, there's this program and that program and that athlete, and they do this, and they can get inside of their personal lives and see that.

So they always are questioning, like, how come I suck? How come I'm not getting this type of progress? And they might be someone with a lot of potential. They compare themselves to the wrong people at the wrong times, and they're like, they don't get that. And so then it's like their word against mine, and it's like, look, I've explained this to you 10 times, and then every day for the last, like, three weeks, and you're still not getting it.

I need you to just commit and buy into the plan and do the work. And then they get that, and then they'll start saying, well, the program must be perfect. I've got to do the work. And then they get that, and then they'll start saying, well, the program must be perfect. I've got to do the work. And then I don't realize that they're actually dying from the program, and it's just too much work here or there, or I've got to back off some of the load on certain days of the week to make it kind of coexist. And so without that information, I can't adjust it. And so they just get worse and worse and more frustrated.

So it's really, that's got to be, you would think it's an obvious thing. Yeah. Well, obvious to communicate with your coach? Right. Yeah, you would think so, but yeah. We talked about that earlier, that one of the biggest things with new clients is that sometimes you have to break your own rules to help build trust with them, meaning you have to show them that it's working earlier than you anticipated in a program because you need to build some trust. Otherwise, like, why would they trust you?

Why would they believe that the long cardio or the accessory work is even working? Sometimes you need to, like, actually put things in to show them. And then they're like, oh, I get it now. And, like, those little – Small wins. Yeah, those little small wins will kind of help build that trust. That's really important, I think. Absolutely.

And, you know, I just hate to have to break from training so much to do that and improve it. And, like, that's where the CrossFit competitor gets annoying because it's like well this might be the perfect day to do that test and on my programming on my paper right this is perfect and it should come together oh but you did this extra other crazy stuff yesterday and you did all these deadlifts and you're fried and now you're actually weaker today so yeah now I look stupid I mean yeah you're right I mean we said that earlier like on paper and I'll use myself as an example. I've had more PRs on unplanned days than I have on days that I actually planned it to happen. That's just how it is. And you've got to like, you know, do the best you can.

You've got to write the plan. You don't have to stick to it verbatim, but you do the best you can with it. Yeah. It was just ever getting to that point to really train and just buy in and commit to the plan and do the work to actually understand cause and effect it's like you know without following a plan to see well after i do this exercise i feel like this the next day or my snatches suck the next day and until you really get in that rhythm and routine can you really digest and understand these things for any of it that even matter but once you get to that point those things will start happening it's like i feel like crap today i had a great day training so like a lot of times people wait to the day that they actually feel good to come in and have a great day. Well, they ain't happening.

You know, you're gonna have to, like, if I waited for the day that I'm going to hit the next PR, cause I feel good that day. It's not. Yeah. Sometimes,

you know, if you're reaching the end of a cycle and you know, you get feedback from someone, I'm not feeling good. I'm not feeling good. Like, like just stay the course. Like,

unless you're getting like injured, obviously you don't be stupid about it, but like you, that's how training works. Like you stress, you stress, you stress, you adapt, and then you come back unless you're getting like injured obviously you don't be stupid about it but like you that's how training works like you stress you stress you stress you adapt and then you come back and you're better so sometimes trusting that process is really important and it's just hard though because psychologically right everything's telling you no so listen to your coach right absolutely yeah trust the process yeah trust the process and communicate like that's probably one of the biggest things i think is that you think that's built into someone,

or is that something that could be trained or getting them to trust? It's a little bit of both, but, you know, trusting the process and, you know, it's a scientific experiment always. Oh, yeah. And, you know, it's like if the science is good or the program is good, you should be able to repeat it. And, you know, the difference is each person, individual, is going to respond differently to the program and the volume.

And so it's understanding the coach's job to understand that and then change it. If they're a good coach, which hopefully you hired a good coach, they will change it based on. So it's too much volume. It's too little. You need to do more singles or more multiple rep type sets. And to understand that can only happen once they trust the coach, follow the plan, you get your information. So that's answering one side of that. The other side is that buying into that, a lot of people have terrible exercise ADD and they just want to do a little

bit of everything and then they can't commit to it and drives them nuts to have to do the same lift two weeks in a row. Yeah. I'm pretty guilty of that, man. Like I need a lot of variety. Like I did weightlifting for four months and I had a blast doing it. But when I got, when I finished like doing the competition, man, I did not want to go back to it. I like, I want to go back to variety. So yeah. And it comes down to understanding what your goals and weaknesses are and what it's going to take to do that so great lesson in terms of cause and effect and really what that takes but most people never get to that point to really feel the difference like so okay i need to get

good at weightlifting or swimming or or say you know metabolic conditioning i got to really focus on that and and not lose of course all your your other elements. So, so speaking of, uh, finding out what those things are, um, can you walk us through, like, if I walked in the door and said, Hey, Justin, like, I want to be a weightlifter. Like, what are the steps you would take to, to, to build a program for me? Like, how would you figure out, do I need more technique? Do I need more strength? Like walk us through what you would do. So there's a lot of little things involved with that. That some are, are,

can be complicated, but some are really pretty simple, honestly. So again, answering the first step of that is what's your goal and how much time do you have from that point? It's, it's really about developing consistency and accuracy of the lift.

So is it accurate? Is this a snatch? Is this a clean and jerk? Is it remotely close? Is it safe? Is it look the same way every time? And is this person have any concept of that? Getting terminology, things like that down.

So getting accuracy down, then making it consistent so it looks the same every single time so it becomes an automatic reaction. They don't have to have this checklist of how to actually do the lift every day, but you can't get there until you follow a checklist for a while. Would you stay in that phase? Or how long would you stay in that phase until they got it? They have to graduate from that phase. Yeah, exactly. And when they don't, they have delayed progress forever, and the problem is months to years down the road,

then they have all these stupid habits and things that could have been done much better from the get-go that could have been worked out earlier. And that's the biggest problem I have now, actually, with our program, is, like, a lot of things that should have been done in the earlier stages were not coached well. We've got a big team now and a lot going on so those things fall through the cracks and so what has to happen better is from the get-go those little steps those little drills each day the abc and that's where you got the abc's right i don't think i've ever graduated yeah right i'm just trying to force

the triangle in this and we talked about like earlier about buying in that could be so hard to get somebody to buy into that like what you, you want me to like work with just the bar? I'm here to lift. Why am I doing drills? Yeah, exactly. Why am I doing these drills? So, yeah, you got to have a little bit of both of those. But as they graduate out of that, then I would start to add more sophisticated,

organized assessments to it with consistency and accuracy. But that's a good other side tangent, though, that we should maybe touch on. But looking at cleaning up and polishing up errors in, say, certain movements versus that buy-in of actually hitting some heavy weights. And I think a lot of times younger and sort of intermediate coaches will get hung up on, like, this has got to be perfect every single time. And, like, I'm a bad coach. It's got to be safe, of course, and not saying don't be wise.

And all these things sound good in theory. Good enough. But it's like at the end of the day, you've got to push the top in. You've got to get strong, get some numbers. But they've got to earn that, and you've got to make good decisions. But then you back off and do a lot of good technical work. They hit their big rep for the day, back off and do a lot of – hit it when they're fresh in the beginning of the day

and then work on their technical flaws thereafter. It's a much better balance than you can never touch this weight because you're just not doing this right. In my general population, it's, look, I'm not going to hurt you at all, and we're never going to risk it. Numbers aren't that important. It's your composition, your safety, and health. That's so important.

Say that again. Which part? The difference on the risk and first reward for gen pop versus someone who's after performance. So if I'm after this just for fun and fitness and whatever, it's like we don't have we can take our time graduating from the abcs and things like that and i want to do a proper plug for the abcs real quick it's the thacker method the justin thacker's abc we got a bunch of free videos all the time with clients remotely that uh i have no barbell so if you're listening out there tell them tell them who that would be for and you can go

check it out it's all over the internet. The Thacker Method is for everyone. But that's your warm-up, right? Yes, exactly. It's how we teach the lifts, but it's also a warm-up. But it's very overwhelming to see at first, but it's really not that complicated. It kicks people's ass. Start with the PVC or empty bar. Everyone I've talked to that does it, it's like, man, first time I did it, man, I was dying. I was so sore and sweaty.

But, yeah, you just get faster at it each time you do it and you just learn more and it's no different than like like getting your white belt in karate and you have to put all that time and work out every little nook and cranny and corner of the lift and then okay i'll peel off this one layer peel off the next layer and then you only need little parts of it for maintenance right right then it's like i'm falling apart so i need to phase some of that back in say in a beginner base phase or something okay and so it's just really understanding those little elements and it's color-coded so if if you look real close, we've got to make bigger pictures. I didn't mean to derail you.

I just wanted a proper look at this. But, yeah, it comes down to the general population. It's like there's no risk worth hurting the individual. And it's like, so we're not afterlifting PR weights necessarily. There's other ways to do that and push that intensity out and blow up without being too risky. And weightlifting and CrossFit is another realm and environment. If their goal is to compete, you've got to do that. You've got to push that limit. and blow up without being too risky. And CrossFit is another realm and environment. If their goal is to compete, you've got to do that. You've got to push that limit.

That's the sport. And so it's got to be calculated risks and helping them understand that and appreciate that and respect that, but then giving them a little bit of that carrot in front of them to continue to buy in. Right, you've got to let them play every once in a while. I was about to ask, how do you handle that? That's such a common question. We get it all the time.

Like, how long do I keep people in this safe zone, training skill zone you know i handle it by banging my head against the wall frustration every day i don't know the answer i mean it's extreme patience with each individual because the thing is it's you really each individual is so different and if you got 20 people at once you're working with it's really got to be handled properly and to convey that one person might be extremely ready that day and you got to rah rah rah that day the other person's like chill out you're good. And so I do more percentage work now than I ever have in my life. I used to see it as very unnecessary in the reps and quality guide of the program.

That's very easy with one person when you have a whole lot of people to save them from themselves. It's like the percentage benchmark for today is XYZ. That's as good as a PR today. If you hit 93% on this Wednesday, outstanding. And from there, that's all I want. I want you to do back-off work at 5% less, et cetera, and hit reps within that scheme. And so they're getting high-percentage lifts,

but then they're getting a lot of good quality work at the same time. So I'm kind of blocking them from themselves, and it helps them stay sane. And sometimes it blocks the higher-end number at certain times of the day, but they're getting much better quality reps, and they're respecting the training process better.

It sounds like you're picking your battles. Yeah, absolutely. And if they look great, that won't hold respecting the training process it sounds like you're picking your battles yeah absolutely absolutely you know and if they look great that they won't hold them back but it's like you look great today you're killing it if you want that next rep you can have it yeah so it's really looking at it and setting up that relationship much better and letting them kind of build that autonomy too like i get i get responses from clients all the time that i coach remotely that'll say i'll have them building you know doing build a tough single and they're're like, you know what? I PR today.

I went for it. I hope you're not upset. And I'm like, no, like I can't control when you're going to want to set the PR. So I want you to know that it's okay to go for it on those days. Yeah. And that's the problem. You know, it's really good understanding it, but still that doesn't mean you're not going to flex shit tomorrow.

Right. And I want you to follow the plan. There is a tax. But, but, you know, each and every day when it's there, you never know when it's going to come and take it. But other than that, the default is follow the plan. Yeah. And so for these athletes, would you have the movements more simple?

Like you would just not – it would be less variation with this? In terms of that, well, I think that's just a global problem, honestly. And I think it's kind of regardless of that situation. But it's really – it's relative to whatever the exercise might be for that day. But, you know, another, I guess moving with this point, I don't want to lose this, but one way I look, you know, after those initial stages and getting them consistent and accurate, it's, you know, a rule of thumb might be if they're missing weights at, you know, 80% or less, you're not consistent. You should like, think of your numbers 80 you should

never be missing those weights so this person's kind of a loose cannon yeah i can't trust what we're doing necessarily yeah you know and 90 or above okay you're pretty good yeah those misses are acceptable getting stronger may not make them more consistent yeah exactly i think i have this i have this uh with i have this discussion with athletes all the time that are in our programs and that well i haven't got a pr and forever i haven't added more weight well you're hitting like above 90 percent like all the time now when you used to miss like that is progress like absolutely you are gaining progress and consistency which is the best progress yeah exactly that's the best progress because if you go actually compete now you know when you get on the platform you're going to hit that weight

that's the control and the data without data you can't ever know that. And what's my percent of X, Y, Z? And it's like they're always comparing it to their best day ever in whatever their last PR was. It's like, stop. It's like I want you to hit this percentage at this point in the program regardless of the fact you feel like crap, and it's relative. It's 80% maybe, but it's relatively like 100% in the way you feel today. And, I mean, but it still goes – a lot of that goes back to just seeing,

I think a lot on social media, it's like, well, such and such is just maxing out every day and hitting a PR like every day. How come I can't do that? How come you're not programming? Why aren't you looking at your programming as much as theirs? Right.

No kidding. You know, they're programmed better than ours, right? Yeah, yeah. That's funny. Actually, I think I want to ask you, so what's your opinion on, and we just put out like a video on when me and Kurt went to Louis Simmons' place. Back in 2015.

Back in 2000, what, 2015? March 6, 2015. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what's your opinion on banded Olympic lifts? I'm curious. Because you've produced pretty high level – like Fernando Reyes, Trey Anderdeer, Jim, some other.

Fernando Reyes, and I didn't produce him by any means, but definitely had some fun working with him. Oh, okay. But, you know, we have Emily Abbott, Stephen Wallace, Megan Grantham, really awesome up-and-coming lifter, and Richard Beamer, a handful of different people, and all kinds of people come and go from various teams through here, actually. But really, my take on this is it's very well proven and documented

for increasing rate of force development in your recruitment. There's positive benefits in general strength conditioning aspects with this. That's very sound, and I buy into that. Using bands. Yeah, absolutely. Now, it's a gimmick and novelty item, though, conditioning uh aspects with this that's very sound and i and i buy into that when you have bands yeah absolutely now it's a gimmick and novelty item though when you're trying to work on a technical issue so like if you're trying to get faster into the barbell there's that's one way to do it and it'll work but your your timing technique with the barbell is going to change and it's just it really changes those mechanics up there's other ways to develop speed and really it

needs to be under the lifter's control like i can have you do a slow pull all the way up with a certain percentage lift then have to you know not build and you can't pull as hard on the bar so you the only way you can do this to successfully make the lift is pull under faster right you know and it's all relative to your control i might do a fast clean or slow clean and it's all dependent upon the lifter's control so i want you to go at 80 speed right now and so it's another way to do sort of the same thing with way less of risk you know so yeah you're gonna get faster on the bar and it's gonna make you pull a certain way up the floor but pauses do that hangs can do that blocks can do that it's just a really it to me it's a complicated mess to have to set up all these things to do such a lift it does take a little bit i think that's the more important point is like what other things are easier to do that could get the same stimulus?

What's a lower-hanging fruit? I'm not saying it's bad, yeah. But what else is just easier to do? I'm more of a purist of I prefer more of our training to be specific of snatching, cleaning, jerking. I really like to see that first and, like, who is this going to make sense for? Like, that population pool is very small. So you might get a benefit from it, but, okay, great, that's one out of 100.

Who's earned the right or need to do such a crazy thing? In a pull or a squat that's way different, I would see that. I don't see the need to use such a device for most people. It's like, did you follow the program or not? Can you even squat well? Can you even do a basic pause squat well? Then we'll look at other things. But if you're talking about that athlete athlete then it's something to maybe consider absolutely

absolutely gotcha interesting yeah i was gonna ask like like it's out of how many lifters you have how many would be even would be able to set it up correctly and do it right like zero there would be a few honestly there's a few that have had some better more experience with it but it's really it's like you know it really it really is as simple as okay it's in the training box in the toolbox but it's just such a fancy tool that do i really even need it for success and it's like and here's here's my final asset test it's like sure this has been used a lot but there's no successful training program you know classically that's really used this as a major tool in their toolbox there's what uses what's worked and there's a lot of, there's tons of different things that work

and all kinds of different training models, but that's just one thing that's just the most obscure in terms of weightlifting. What are some of the training models and things that you study that you kind of apply? Anything and everything has influenced weightlifting in my perspective, I would say. I like the specificity concepts out of the Bulgarian approach, but that doesn't mean I... Specificity meaning like... Like snatch.

Yeah, doing the three basic lifts. Just do the lifts, yeah. Not knowing where it is. Explain that real quick for those that don't know. It's just really just the concept of, you know, if your sport is throwing a baseball and pitching, you should pitch a lot. Yeah. Not, you know, throwing a football is not going to be the most specific way to make you the pitcher or throw a baseball. So if your sport is shooting hoops, you're a free throw shooter or whatever,

and that's your specialty, you need to really do that. So in weightlifting, it's snatch and clean and jerk. And all these specialty complex lifts, if my intent is to fix a flaw, then it has a specific use. Absolutely. But that's not what a lot of people do. They just do variety for variety's sake. For me, that's just novelty stuff. It's good for, say, CrossFit complexity and getting used to doing a lot of different things.

But a good weightlifter who's good at snatch and clean and jerk, if I ask them to do a complex, they're going to be way better at doing that than someone who does clown show stuff all the time. You know what I'm saying? They're good with the barbell already. So it's going to take me a little bit of time to figure it out. It's not a big jump because I already know how to do great snatch and clean and jerks. But there's a lot of problems with that, of course. Just breaking up monotony of training and recovery, things of of that nature is where i put a lot of that stuff in

you know as a rule it's not like i need variety for variety sake okay you know unless it's active recovery or the number one use i use for it is just for technical flaws yeah i think that's a great takeaway is like not just doing variety for variety's sake it has to have a point it has to have some kind of purpose uh that you're trying to accomplish. Otherwise, it's just like we talked about, like the other lifts they should be doing, and, like, we don't have time. So if you're doing novelty shit and we don't have much time. So in this scenario, what would you be considering, like, novelty stuff here?

Anything beyond. Okay, so if the most specific would be snatch and clean and jerk, then the next most specific might be a power. Then it might be, say, a pause lift or slow tempo lift or something like that. Hang snatches. Then into the hangs where it's not off the floor, then into blocks, and then any other variety from there, complexes, et cetera. Gotcha.

So they're all great, and they've served a lot of purposes, and it's great to cross-reference motor patterns and whatnot to really increase mastery. But for the very new beginner, a lot of them are not very helpful. Gotcha. But if I'm trying to strengthen – there's simple ones. So a power clean to a clean plus front squat might be helpful to reinforce certain things that are specific complexes.

But they get crazy. It's like, now I want you to do a power, then a hang plus two squats, and then a jerk with each leg. Pause, blow, then leave. Did I leave the gym better at this lift? No, I'm more confused than when I got here. Is this all talking about for a beginner or are we talking about for anyone? That's a broad stroke, everyone, but mostly for a beginner it would be very confusing.

I see most people do better with specificity because one thing they've got to realize is I lift better on these days of the week because of recovery purposes and I'm still trying to master this lift and how it goes. You don't go to the gym every day and shoot your basketball and make it perfect every time. You might have to do it for your extra shots. I'm just tired today and I'm just not as sharp as I was. Learning that basic stuff has to happen first. Then you get fancy and add in the cute stuff that might be, that might be, you know, it's an art and science. So it's like, so what is the art that I need to add to this to make this just a little tighter?

Yeah. Is this going to be a great success or a big waste of time and failure? And that's where it's really, you know, you gotta be, you know, really accurate about it where it's, it's waste of time and failure and that's where it's really you know you got to be you know really accurate about it where it's it's kind of frustrating and really you know if someone just needs to do something fun and different break it up that's fine and when you were at your peak uh lifting um when were you what kind of training were you doing it was very like i was i'm on the far end of the spectrum of simplicity and like it's stressful to me to add a whole lot of different variables to my training it's like i want to think about working my ass off and keeping it really simple and mastering this it's like it's the same thing all day long from point a to point b lifted point a to point b lifted and through that i learned more

by feeling the lift 10 000 plus times and knowing that when it was off what i have to do i don't need to do a hang i need to know that i need to face my pole a little bit better or pull under faster keep the bar close it's simple stuff like like that, but that's after years of training. Years of – yeah, that's after years of knowing, like, how the bar is supposed to feel, how everything is supposed to feel. I was talking to Alex about that earlier. I came in and trained and did some snatches, and I'm snatching like once a week now just to keep touches on it

and not training like I was a few months ago. But I warmed up, and I noticed, like, I wasn't using my hips completely, and I kept catching things into power, and I wasn't I wasn't using my hips completely and I was kept catching things into power and I wasn't pulling under the bar very fast I worked up to like uh one like 110 and I was like I gotta start all over I stripped the bar back down and I started completely from scratch because I just felt like today I'm like I'm not getting the point that I want right now yeah yeah so I think that just comes with learning right yeah and so like a version of that like so jumping way ahead to like more of

elite level lifters someone i've had trained five to six days a week for a couple years in a national level like i would say like so for today's workout so whatever you hit i wanted you to yesterday to work up to minus five to ten kilos from that as a practice for today so i know exactly like today you only have three attempts at this meet i need you to make sure you nail this first one there's no second chances you can't ramp up again. And that, to me, is specific training to practice for sport of weightlifting. Right, or competition. And I know it's a lower percentage.

It shouldn't be stressful because you're a weightlifter. You do the lifts all the time. Yeah. So it shouldn't be stressful to ask for, say, like a sub-opener weight as practice. So tomorrow you're going to feel really sharp and right on, and there's no question about it. Gotcha. I want to ask you a little bit about, um, the,

the programming for your, for your gym, for the, um, the lab group. Um, what are you, sorry, the weightlifting team lab. So if I asked you about like my individual touches on a weightlifter, like it sounds very specific in that you do a lot of individual assessment, which is awesome, but a gym setting is a little different, like with a team. So if you're writing a cycle for the cycle for the whole team how do you do that like how do you figure out what's the priority for a group of people so i have a level one two and three program that's pretty basic and it's based on how many days per week that they train and their basic needs and priorities and from there it's it's a very like that's why some of them get really long and wordy because it's like there's a lot of needs and ways this can go but it's also pretty comprehensive and conclusive for that level of lifter so think of level one two and three as beginner intermediate and advanced okay so that really determines how many how often

you might snatch or clean and jerk how often you might squat and pull and some of the strength lifts that it might phase in throughout the week or spread things out and so it's very broad uh general at first but it's got to be individualized from there and that's where the note no taking to me is the number one thing like it's the top of the list no taking for the athlete for the athlete and for the athlete and coach to correspond and have information to work with and it's like so you felt like crap the last 10 mondays in a row and you didn't think this was going to be a good day but you hit like i found there's a positive correlation are you feeling like crap and you hitting prs okay so okay yeah that's true man every time i feel like shit before i meet i do i smoke in and i meet if i feel good yeah and it's it's really but and it's interesting because it's like you'll see all kinds of random variables

that are completely obviously irrelevant and it's like so that it's interesting to know but it helps you it's that buy-in you'd asked earlier it's like you need to trust the process get to work and go one set and rep at a time and realize that's why you warm up. Things will tighten up at each weight as you go, and we'll see how it goes. And if I need to give you one cue, more finish. Tighten up. Then that's all that needed to happen. And as a coach, and I see them at 99% confidence that day,

I might start giving them a little bit more rah-rah-rah to commit. Come on, you're there. You're right there. And their confidence is probably dropping fast by the second. They don't think it's going to be a good day based on whatever real and unreal factors, but you're not that far off, and you just need to be a little bit more aggressive and stop doubting yourself.

So those simple little individualizations happen, but then the programming adjustments and tweaks happen from the base program with the individual and their notes, and that just really takes life. So the real answer is what the lifter puts in, they get out. So the better they – when they show up, they don't show up and they're flaky about their attendance. I'm like, I'm sorry, but I can only give you so much. You've got to buy in.

You've got to show up. You've got to do the work. Until then, you can't cry about it. So you write basically a general kind of base program for the different levels, but then when the athlete – you seeing how the athlete performs, that's when you will go in and make adjustments whatever tweaks are yes because it's really it's got to be individual individualized that way it's really what's going on with their life and their schedule and you know is this a fun person or is this is

i'm a competitive only person and they're all fun like i gotta touch on that everyone's in this for fun and enjoyment but it's like at the high end like is it is it more fun to you to have a social club or to do good right you know and at the end of the day it's like you got to weigh that out if you're here just to have fun and like i'm too uptight for you then fine but then you got to be honest about that yeah then go hang out in the corner otherwise if you're here to get really good yeah when you hit that pr we're all gonna smile you're gonna yeah you're gonna you might feel like crap you're just gonna do the work and kind of grind through it. Interesting. How are you training these days? I saw you. I got on the Lab Gym Instagram.

Okay, first of all, you had a huge deadlift, and you were like CrossFit. Now I'm like, is that CrossFit? What are you doing these days, man? So it's interesting. There's a lot behind it, but it's all secret. Okay. So last year I was doing some competitive weightlifting more than I had in a long time.

It was kind of my last shot. The Olympic trials was coming up. I was like, let's see how close I can get to all this and what I have left. You know, I'm very old. I'm 35 now. No, you ain't that old. I'm 30, man.

I'm very old. So as a weightlifter, it's like 120. So, you know, my strength, like after my knee and shoulder injury that I had like the biggest thing that dropped off was my strength and then what I didn't realize is my technique changed a lot from my stiffness and my positions around my injuries and I'd compensated a lot and I got worse and worse and although things were starting to come together my strength finally caught back up I was hitting some good numbers I just what'd you do to build your strength back up so I had to really I never never my career did i ever make strength and squats actually the

top priority of my focus ever and people that know me now would be surprised to ever hear that actually and it was that so you're saying you you didn't prioritize squats i started as a power lifter and so i had a good strength base early on i started powerlifting at age 10 i didn't start weightlifting until 17 so i had a good strength base but i was doing powerlifting movements so it was different and to learn a lot there but you know my efficiency numbers were pretty good when i was at the top of my game and it was i'd always snatch and clean and jerk first and squats were always an afterthought but then i realized i had to push them and that's when my best total came to life it was when i got my strength up but it was never it was always an after after snatch clean and jerk thing the priority was always hitting the lifts

first can sorry can you say what you mean uh can you explain efficiency numbers uh so you know my snatch to clean like so my best front squat then was 200 kilos, and my clean jerk was 180, so it's about 90% ratio, and that's what I would like to see, and that's correct math, right? So that's what I'd like to see in an efficient lifter, and snatch being about 78 to 82% of that. And my back squat was always kind of higher. I'm really good at grinding and sticking through lifts,

and as a powerlifting my whole life, that was always a number was higher but it's to me it's not as good of a correlation to lift as say a front squat okay and so those numbers were really tight but now like i mean i front squat 217 now and i cleaned 175 last year so my efficiency is not as good but my technique's different i train differently strength is way more priority and i realize now at this point in my life you know training is a way if there's like you're training for that big lift every few months or longer it's like that's a fleeting state i can't commit to that anymore i know that as i age i want to keep my strength and power and ability to lift heavy weights as a squat and i might transition more into sort of a powerlifting influence and

it's that's something i know i'll be able to do forever and lifting i just enjoy doing it and i love it and not having the pressure of this huge pr coming on all the time is not what i need i mean you own a business now like work stresses are different it's different when you're 20 years old absolutely and I can't I just can't reasonably commit to that and that was my last can't speak every that was my last like I thought I was done years ago honestly and I was like let's just see how this goes and yeah and I just kind of ran with it and it was fun and all that but it's kind of like I had to kill weightlifting in my heart yeah it was like I had to burn this out of my system so I could finally walk away

and not want to be a competitor anymore. It's like that had to do that. It's a hard thing to turn off. It had to hit rock bottom with it. It's kind of like, okay, I've had enough. I'm good. I get it. And I love this sport.

I'm going to do it forever, but not like that. So that was good. How did that make you feel, man? Good and bad. I'm still, it's a day-to-day. It's like alcohol recovery. It doesn't go away. No, no.

Because you're an athlete. You're a competitive athlete. And I'd approach it very healthy in that regard. Like, I'm just happy to do the lifts. Take that energy and put it into coaching. Well, that's part of it, too. It's like I had to learn to hate coaching at the same time. So the whole sport was like, man, this is all my life's been for so long.

I just got to appreciate it differently and chill out. And it's like that high-end competitive mindset all the time is very unhealthy if that's all you ever do so keeping the perspective of yes I want to be a competitor but I want to do this for my whole life yeah I want to enjoy it my whole life and so it's like chill out and when I found out though my strength numbers are better than they've ever been ah so I'm smarter now I'm slower my progressions like I've got really nice uh mathematical correlation to the progressions I might take over the long haul, but the numbers I've been deadlifting and pulling and squatting are crazy shit I've never thought I'd ever do that are now, you know, that's still a focus. So when I do my Olympic lifts, I'm doing

heavier lifts at a higher frequency than I ever expected. So I was more patient about it. With your emphasis on strength? So without giving too many important secrets away, so what what happened was i went to this period if i didn't do any olympic lifts at all whatsoever and i was working at home exclusively leave for a little bit and it was just okay if i compete ever again it's going to be in piloting and i've always wanted to get back to that that's where i started that was a sport i was more better suited for and so i started focusing on that for a little while and i i realized there's a lot of i could do this faster and more efficiently and i got a lot of work in time so I cut my training down like in half and it was great your training volume

yeah my training volume and hours of training and so things got a lot quicker and I was like okay this is great I can do so many other things with my life there's more than just training what there's more than just training seriously yeah you have an abc lift and you're gone an hour and a half yeah man that's great so I shaved off a radical amount of time and I was like I was doing it just to be healthy and smart about it and and so that was pretty eye-opening and my goal was not to get to high-end numbers you know just to be able to do it and not feel like crap and so time went on and so i was doing a lot of let's call it like emom type training where i was doing a lot of quick short rests and uh more singles and things like that

and it was like i'm moving faster and I'm not messing around. And, like, all that psychodrama you have in your head when you're not feeling good that slows you down from getting to the workout. I'm like, I have to do a set every one to two minutes and keep going to get it done. And, like, I stopped thinking about my knee hurting and all those sorts of things. Next thing you know, the numbers started skyrocketing. I was hitting 250, 260 kilos last year every week of my life over and over routinely. And then this phase i dropped

to 220 was murder for me and so now i got it back up to 260 i've hit 260 like the last eight weeks in a row routinely and it was all resolved this slow build-up and i had no urgency on it's like i will not go up and wait for at least three weeks in a row and in many times it's more i want it to be a low stress weight that i can walk up to without having to lose my mind yeah and be cool and calm and controlled about it. I mean, I'm still crazy, but it's a matter of like this is not a stress to me and I'm not worried for life and death necessarily. I'm coming in here and making this very routine weight. Next thing you know, the lift started feeling so freaking light.

I mean, this week. Well, you didn't have a pressure to meet an expectation every time. Yeah. And so the volume increased, the numbers increased, and the relative intensities all kept jumping. So now, like this week, I deadlifted 291 kilos on Monday. I backed off with 280 kilos. That's a lot of kilos. And then Wednesday I did three singles at 280.

And today I did five singles at 270. This is more deadlifting and heavier lifts than I've ever done in my life. Has that changed how you train the team? There's a lot of little things, but I do a lot of that with the actual lifts themselves, actually, in different ways. And I do a lot of that with squatting elements, but the lifts are very routine and light. I remember before with deadlifts, I was always just naturally suited for deadlifts, but I never were able to push them as a weightlifter as much as I would like. Now that's my goal is to, you know, break 300 plus kilos with it. And, and so, um, it's that it's, it's cluster type EMOM type training. And it's really, that's

something I've always done. It's just taking it a lot further. So with squatting and stuff, it's, it's been very helpful, but in the lifts, tons of, you know, the CrossFit competitors, they've seen all kinds of stuff like that. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Very cool. Um, so I want to ask a little bit about, we touched on the percentages earlier. I'd like to give the audience something to take away from this in terms of some numbers that they could kind of aim for. So I'll try and give you a specific scenario, and let's talk about what percentages you would want to see.

Let's say an Olympic weightlifter, someone who's trying to be competitive, what are front squat to back squat you know front squat to clean ratios like i just want to hear your take on them and what someone could aim for to know if i'm efficient yeah okay there's a lot that that could be addressed there's all kinds of outliers on this so it's it's really it's got it's just like giving someone a diet it's like this one man's uh treasures is another man's poison sort of a thing. So it could really be all over the place. Justin, pull your mic down. So in general, so a cleaning jerk, about 90% of your front squat is ideal. Okay. And then a front squat of about 85% of your back squat is pretty ideal.

Yeah. Now, within that, then we have our cleaning jerk number established based on our front squat. Then 78% to 82% of your snatch should be your cleaning jerk. Now, or in other ways to look at this. 78% to 82% of your snatch should be your clean and jerk. Now, or other ways to look at this. 78% to 80% of your snatch? 78% to 82%. 82% of the clean and jerk. Of the snatch to clean and jerk, yeah.

So in other numbers you could look at would be your clean should be 75% to 80% of your back squat or around 125% to 140% is another one. So you could play with all those numbers and see where you actually fall. But basically snatch to clean and jerk should be snatch at 78% to 82% to your 100% of your clean and jerk. Then the next number I look at is that my clean 90% of my front squat. Got it. Those are the main ones there. Because the back squat can be huge.

The deadlift numbers are all over the place. I've seen a lot of elite level lifters who are snatch grip deadlifting 190% of their snatch. And I know lifters who can barely snatch grip deadlift probably 120 and be amazing lifters but it's like i'm one of those lifters that needs a lot of floor pull strength and it translates for me well and like i was pushing my snatch grip deadlift to obscene levels uh because that made sense for me but yeah but anyway just to give you a starting point because what you know beyond that there's diminishing return like where's your efficiency but you know a lot of things you can do can tighten up your efficiency,

technique, flexibility, all those things. Yeah, we can't assume it's strength, but it's just good to see those. I'm not saying those are strength efficiency numbers, but they're just efficiency numbers, period. Just to start with. Because it could be a mobility issue. Right. I mean, it's just a way to identify maybe where you're lacking.

It's a good place to start. If you squat 200 kilos, but your clean is only like 130, then there's something going on here. And there's definitely people, though, where I look at elite-level scenarios where it's like, Dimas is one of the worst efficiency lifters ever, but he's one of the best lifters of all time. When you look at his numbers and his squat numbers and ratios, they're terrible, but best lifter ever.

The point is, am I the best lifter or am I the best squatter at the end of the day? And no one ultimately will care what your squat number is. I know. He's in the U.S. now. He may come after you. I know. I know. I'm worried.

No, I'll respect for sure. I want all his medals for sure. But I would have said – I never would have mentioned it to him. I was like, well, he apparently needs to squat this much to make these lifts so efficient and so routine. And that is what it is. So after you get to a certain level, there's a mission in return with that squat to lift number.

So what used to be a five-pound improvement in my front squat would lead to my clean PR. You might need 15 pounds for every five pounds, let's say, down the road. So that's why you see these elite-level lifters hitting these huge numbers in the squats that don't seem to correlate and translate like right yeah yeah um i've got a question that i want to ask you uh what do you how do what do you feel about the future of weightlifting especially united states weightlifting i mean they they just closed the otc like what are your what are your thoughts about like where's weightlifting going now these

days no i think it's it's a great future honestly like the otc is a very unfortunate but like i had no surprise to me at all it's like i know what it takes for me to keep this place open and you know and the perspectives and like i mean i have to go to painful ridiculous extents to keep this place alive and it's like i have to hide my closet my uh office closet to get things done to keep it open it's because i love the sport of weightlifting i love all things considered but that's an expense and we don't do it for money likewise the otc like if you don't produce you're not going to get money from us you're not getting sponsorship dollars so it makes sense yeah so for weightlifting to continue to excel i mean it's going to be a lot of micro places like us that have such an opportunity you know such a place with coaches

and all that so i think you know we'll see what us USO comes out with in terms of their overall organized plan. I think it, I think it would be great actually. I think decentralizing that gives it a lot more people, a lot more opportunity to produce and perform in it. And it decentralizes all those resources into one place. So to me, it makes sense. You know, as long as it's well organized, there's proper incentive for the facility. For example, I'm all in. Absolutely. But I still got to pay the bills.

So I'm not, you know, when I realized like I'm putting my own sanity, my own business, future, family, et cetera, all at risk to do this, I can't do that. So I'm no different than OTC. I'm more than happy to do it, but I also need support. So when lifters flake out or they aren't made to be a lifter and all that, those things are real, and if that's all in the back of the individual, then that's not very helpful. But the sport in general is obviously growing there's tons of lifters i've seen more talent and ability and depth than this past olympics sarah roble's

absolutely i mean what was the last time uh we had a lifter win like 2004 uh i think it was yeah 2004 yeah 2004 well shara hayworth yeah yeah yeah, this is the – and then all of our lifters did really, really well. Absolutely. Morgan King placed in the top ten, and Jenny Arthur, and then Kendrick. Like, all of our lifters did really, really well. Great weekends. And, yeah, I've always felt we had a great lifting in the U.S., and just seeing all the positive tests now is outstanding.

God. That's the best thing ever, in my opinion. It's like, now you guys can see where we truly place in an even playing field. And so now that you see – down. Yeah, yeah. Now you see where people truly place in the end and, like, people are bumping up. You wouldn't be surprised to see Kendrick come out with a medal from a past competition, you know.

Yeah, that's true. So that's great. So the better that's placed internationally and the more talent we have and continue to develop, I think it's a very optimistic future more than I've ever seen. The OTC, uh, glip there is, is unfortunate, but I just think those resources can be placed. There's so many great coaches and athletes out there that I I'm excited.

And like, you know, all things considered, I'm all in in terms of doing my part to coach and have athletes, uh, be produced in those things. But it really, you know, resources have to be provided. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm very optimistic about the future. be produced and those things but it really it you know resources have to be provided yeah i mean i'm i'm i'm very optimistic about the future i mean considering like with crossfit and all this expansion of weightlifting i mean you were at reno last year there were a thousand lifters they're like the sport is getting huge our talent pool is going to get even bigger so i mean you

know morgan king like she came out of nowhere so you know i'm pretty i'm pretty optimistic about where the future is going. Absolutely. Even when I noticed that we loaded at the World Championships last year. Oh, yeah. You guys were at the World Championships. The fastest bike changers in the West. Yeah, it was a ton of fun.

Then I noticed I didn't realize that some of the CrossFit competitors were actually competing at Worlds in the West. Yeah. So everyone who ever – Tia Toomey from Australia. Annie Thor's daughter. Yeah, Annie Thor's daughter was at Worlds too. Yeah, and so it's like if you ever doubted that your lifting abilities

were important for your CrossFit game, then that was a pretty good answer. I mean, the best were there. And so seeing how that produces – what's the chicken or the egg here? What's producing the weightlifter? And I think just exposing these amazing athletes to weightlifting when they can do that. You can – I think – was it Car Web to weightlifting. Yeah. When they can do that, you can like, I think it was a car web that got criticism for doing the Olympics and the

games or somebody. Yeah. Are you serious? You seriously, right? That guy was ridiculous. I was like, who pays her bills?

CrossFit pays her bills right now. And her chances of winning an Olympic medal are not good right now. So like more power to her. I don't know. I don't know what the point of that was, what they were trying to say. But haters don't hate. Hell,

if I could do both, I certainly would. And, you know, I think if someone can do that, hey, it's just good for weightlifting. We get more people involved. And the person that's meant to win that gold medal is going to choose their priority as the Olympics over probably the Games. Who knows? I mean, Olympic medals are worth millions. So the CrossFit Games is way up there if you win, I guess. But I don't know if it's the same.

Just as a thought exercise, if there's one thing you could do, so to speak, what do you think that would be to progress the sport for the U.S.? Me or everyone? For everyone. Is there one? Franchise lab, Jim. First number in the chain to knock down.

Follow your ABCs. Take good notes so you can see cause and effect and learn what way things are all about and what program and what changes have to happen for you. And at first, just be a good student and be diligent to that for years. I've got 25 years of notes that I refer to still to this day, and it's always something different I take from it when I look at it and try to analyze that when I see different programming

and see the relationships. And like at one part of my career, did I need more variety at certain points? I need more specificity, things like that. that has got to be from the coach to the athlete and from that point forward you can actually see the masses progress because we have more information understanding way of things it's not like instagrams are our number one source of information in terms of way of thing expertise you'll see there that there's so many things that do happen and it can be done for a successful athlete, but nothing's going to work if you don't stick to a basic plan that's the meat and potatoes. Those are those 10% type things that can fit in and optimize things.

So the whole, like, what I'm really getting to here is, like, Russia did well because they had a lot of lifters and a lot of people following a template sort of plan. So they knew that, okay, the best athletes are going to make this plan, whether it was good or bad right look very good and this athlete is a great athlete and no matter what plan we put them on they're gonna succeed that's a champion so finding those people is really what this is about and so having a basic program the best are gonna rise at the top we then take them and then you know tweak them and get them the resources they need to excel so the more that you know more clubs and basic general releasing programs exist the the more numbers we see and can develop.

I was just about to say more great coaches like you taking chances on opening facilities like this and starting clubs. I mean, this is what, in my opinion, what keeps people more involved with it is showing up and having a group of people to high five with and lift with all the time, especially in weightlifting. You're not alone. Lifting on a platform alone all the time is tough. Well, hold on. Here's the real question. Sorry to interrupt. This is good.

If you said you're losing money on this or, like, you're not making money on this, this is out of love, what's the advice you give to someone who wants to set this up? I wasn't going into that. What are you going to tell? You go ahead. No, no. That's my question, bitch. What are you going to tell? What go ahead. That's my question, bitch. What is the real no bullshit fucking advice?

What is the struggle you have to do to make this actually happen, and what's your advice to that guy? Be a better businessman. So we've got a lot going on, and trying to keep everything, like all the plates spinning here is a lot. So if you were just doing weightlifting, it would be a way different animal. So if you were just doing CrossFit and say weightlifting and complimentary like your world would be a little bit easier so i've got very big bills to pay with this place so i gotta keep that in perspective but

you know having uh you know building your weightlifting club sort of like a crossfit gym and making sure you've got everyone paying dues and whatnot like every every talent lifter out there wants a stipend and a handout and like we have scholarships we give to people that are are you know talent worthy potential people but at the end of the day you know is it really paying off like i don't know i mean it's like i almost would rather this guy pay so he shows me that he's like committed to it and like he's a member of this team and he's no more special than anybody else it's like so you know getting everyone to be on board like those guys could you know also help clean things that, reduce the stress on that place. So having that team cohesion and understanding the greater good of the place versus like we're a bunch of individuals.

Ball is down in the community. Yeah. So that would definitely help. But, you know, getting that community and getting, you know, a good small place that you can finance the place in terms of the expenses. And it's like this is an amazing setup that's like there's a pain in the ass for for me to pay for but you see all these other countries out there who have like little alleys and stuff that i'll find so it doesn't have to be africa it's front squatting on boards in the dirt like sharing platforms things like that it doesn't have to you could have four platforms and have an amazing weightlifting club you know it just has to

be a tight unit and people have to work together. People here get their own platform. It's a really nice thing. They have their own barbell platform, and it's great. So we should be producing 24 world champions out of here in no time. I see that some of the barbells in the racks over there have locks on them. Yeah. Tell me about that. I don't want to offend anyone. But, no, everyone's got their own barbell.

It's nice. They spend a lot of money on it, and it's expensive. Oh, nice. And so we let them – we should pay charge rent, but we don't. But they keep their bar there. That's pretty funny. I've never seen that. That's pretty cool.

I haven't been to enough weightlifting gyms, I guess. I've never seen that before, but that's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah. Certainly. It's like your own Excalibur. You can lock it up and you don't feel the mess. Yeah, because you don't want some noob here dropping an expensive $2,000 bar from overhead on the floor. So here's the irony of it,

and this is why I have a certain attitude about it, is my stuff gets broken every day. I get a brand-new Oliko set in there that we win for the loading thing. Oh, yeah. And the next week it's broken. And it's like people don't respect it. They slam it down. Did you catch them on camera?

Oh, yeah. I know who the assholes are but so like when your stuff gets broken then they come in locked i'm like i'm gonna lock up everything in here yeah that's how i feel but but i get it totally you know you just got to respect the equipment and yeah that's how the business stays alive too you don't have to buy new weights all that well that's great that's good advice i mean i know there's a lot of um there's a lot of list listeners that want to start weightlifting clubs and now you know they have a good yeah source to follow and i think it's probably it just goes back to what you're saying like if you're going to start a weightlifting club it's got to be from the passion

and from the heart because you know it's one of those things where they're right now there's just not a lot you know it's not lucrative it's yeah it's not you know it's not a business-minded thing unless you figure out much more intelligent ways things to do um i'm i'm just stupid like from day one i've not been a good businessman it's like i want to actually be a trainer and help people and that's what i'm passionate about i don't want to talk about money or nothing yeah don't get confused that with me and so i'll do it to a painful extent and you know i get in deep and it's like all i'm thinking about is programming and coaching and whatever it's going to take for this lifter i mean it keeps me awake at night so uh if you have that passion and you have good sensibility about your business

or good partners, that will keep you afloat. You partner with your brother, right? Yeah. So he takes care of all the business side of the house? He does all right. He does all right. I think in general, I think what you have is spot on. Like it's got to come from this place of you want to help.

Yeah, and people got to respect that. And, like, as a community, it'll, it'll work. And, you know, having a good system that everyone, you know, I think being organized and how people train and all that's very helpful. You know,

just like I was saying, like, you know, from the get go, having a good relationship with your athlete of this is how you're going to earn that PR attempt. And this is how you warm up each day and having these things organized, it's a way more effective and easier to control.

And as time goes on, you start getting the people that are experienced to be more kind of like, what's the word? Oh, just they become leaders within the group to kind of teach the new guys how this goes. And like, okay, you've earned your stripes. You've gotten all this out of me over the last two years. And it'll help the new people break in and understand the process and then all these things need like from counting attempts to coaching at meets and and so on and so forth yeah you know without that it shouldn't be all just one person sacrificing everything because that won't last yeah have you noticed the correlation between people who train uh alone and people who train in groups it's a great

question um there's a lot of interesting perspectives on this now absolutely the groups not mean necessarily group training like but like they're around supporting each other like at the same time i have a very divided opinion personally in this because i have a very unique scenario where i've always trained by myself and like it was always in my garage or in my basement in my office you name it and that's trying to a high level doing it and it's like it's between me and the barbell and that's it it's like this is therapy for me, and I don't want the external motivation. It works, trust me. In an environment, definitely I'll rise up and be more ferocious and invincible in public and all that,

but it's like I don't want that to be my driving force. If I can't do that without my own internal drive, it's probably not safe or smart, and I don't deserve it. That's my really aggressive opinion about it. That's a good – I mean, that's a valid point. But if you didn't have it, then you could sprinkle that on there? Yeah, you know, I think you've got to be able to do that and have those periods of, like, Megan Grantham is a great lifter I have now and, like, she had to go train by herself for a while

and it was very good for her to have to, like, not be so dependent on me to tell her her every move. But when she came back, her perspective was different and she was way more grown up. That's some autonomy. Yeah, it was very helpful, but, like, it took our abilities to work together even further, actually. And so she just wasn't clueless about the process. Yeah.

And so then she could see the errors in other people and, like, they're acting crazy. What is wrong with them? It's like, you know, like, you know, they're all having fun and all that, but you're the one in your focus doing all the work and going to all these national meets. It's great. I think I would have to adjust to a group weightlifting setting. I'd have to have percentages. I'd have to have a lot of constraints because I would probably try and max out everything. One of the coolest things I ever saw was when we did that first episode with you at your old place.

I'd never seen it. I'm sure it happens elsewhere, but you had about ten lifters out there, and you had a notepad, and you would just go from one to the other. I was like, man, this looks fun as hell. It's great. Be one of those ten guys i could lose i could i could do this all day every day it's just at a certain point when one person acts crazy and you you have to deal with them the other person gets missed and like they all got to respect how this all works and it's like look i can't baby you so much right now for the greater good of the group but like we're

going to talk about this at the right time but But some of those things then get squashed on their own, because they probably weren't that important to begin with, little issues like that. But being able to stay on the whole group and stay focused is not easy, and that's why you need good assistant coaches and people going one at a time, people sharing platforms, things like that. And, you know, even where you sit as a coach,

so you can see the whole room at once is strategic. Cameras, yeah. So you can sit in your office. Absolutely, definitely. And, like, using technology is very helpful. What the way craziest shit you've caught on the camera oh boy oh i bet you got a lot of awesome look if you look up on youtube uh lab lab gym dance video you might find an old video from the first place i took uh people doing a warm-up in here it's a dynamic body weight warm-up and everyone everyone was doing dance moves, random stuff.

So I made this dance video for the whole warm-up. I'm just doing random dance. No idea. It's hilarious. That's funny. But craziest thing I probably couldn't even tell you. But there's all kinds of funny stuff. People don't realize.

Uh-oh. Some late night videos. Late night. Busted. Doing some late night sessions in here. That's awesome. We never close. Is there anything else you want to tell us about anything you want to add any new products come in well

there's some things that are coming it's a little premature i guess to bring up uh we're premature so there's a lot like talking about these actual things and the difficulties i've had like i've been looking at uh you know whatever programming technology in terms of organizing training and whatnot. Like apps or anything? Yeah, apps. And I've exhausted all kinds of things. And that's why I feel like I've been building a space shuttle for the last six months. And I usually always use Google Sheets.

I've got like 20 tabs open and I'm looking at all my athletes' stuff and their notes and I can take notes real quick. And then I looked at all the other stuff out there and it's like, nothing can do what I need. And like, these things are awesome, but like they're still very, very limited. And so I've been taking that further and further and like programming in my stuff and then like, then having all these different variables and adjustments and programming in their progress that they should have. So like I want you to add this value for over the course of the next 52 weeks.

And this is when you get that PR attempt sort of a thing. And there's all kinds of great stuff worked into it. Wait, 52, not six? Exactly. And it depends on your training age too. Like are you brand new and you should expect the slack taken out right away or have you been training for five years and you're outstanding and I don't want to see PR out of you for every six months.

And so that can be worked in and they kind of get that. It makes them less crazy. It makes me less crazy and it's way more organized. And even the warm-ups and stuff that they should in and they kind of get that. It makes them less crazy. It makes me less crazy. It's way more organized. And even the warmups and stuff that they should do is all kind of built into this very quickly. And I've got all my options all programmed in and I can really communicate way more effectively, make better decisions than I would myself because I've had,

have it all built into this. So that's in the very early stages of where it's at. So you're building this. You're building like a application. I knew nothing. I mean, I knew very little about Google Excel for a while, but I've taken it to some insane lengths,

and I've had all those kinds of sheets basically explode on me. I built a few versions that really were just too strong to actually be functional and starting over and whatnot. I've got to go to different platforms and whatnot. I was cleaning out some boxes the other day. I'm moving, and I found an old 2003 Microsoft Excel book, if you want it. Absolutely.

I need help. What was that computer? Inspiron or whatever? I don't know. It was an old CompuServe e-machine or something. It's funny, though. The more I've applied this, even with the percentages and benchmarks and predictions, what I'm really interested in

is predicting progress and performance. And even with human error involved with all this, I've got some incredible numbers and percentages to look at that make decisions better than I ever could. And that's part of what I've applied to my own secret training, and it's like, this is brilliant. And so now the buy-in is actually programmed on the page, and I'm like, I'm even falling for my own shit now.

It's like, this is incredible. So following that trend, and it's all it's all connected to each day of the week that you train in the numbers you've hit and how many times you hit a certain number it's all connected and it helps you make really good predictions and decisions and it kind of it then allows you to know your ebb and flow of your good weeks versus your bad weeks and you can kind of auto correct for that so this would be for somebody like if you once this is made um it's called megatron. Is it really? It's a transformer. That's the pet name I have for it.

That's the code name? That's the code name? That's what I'm going to name my daughter. So this will be for somebody. You give this to somebody, and they plug in some numbers maybe, and then it will just spit out a program for them? Yeah, so it does a lot of that. Now, a lot of this is still dependent upon the coach's integration.

It's mostly on that end, but absolutely. There's a lot of those decisions built in for the individual like this is where kind of training is going now i'm seeing a lot of seeing a lot of uh people putting out kind of like auto templates or just just uh like programs like this will will figure out what you need to do as an athlete or coach to program for you i feel like this is kind of where training is going. Yeah, it's really – I've realized I'm so – At least programming at least. There is a formula to the way I see things, like from the data I have and the way I think and I would coach someone,

even the sequence that I would make decisions is very mathematical in terms of like, okay, this would be my first priority, this would be my second priority and how I think through it, and it's doing that for me. And I've done this for nutrition stuff as well, and it's really – okay, so I can't be there for everyone all the time and the ball's being dropped it's like so this is such a nice yeah so it allows me to individualize better because i'm i've already got my shit organized so once it's available where where would we get it lab gym.com megatron

we'll see i don't even know yeah megatron.com and we'll of course keep us posted on the social medias and we'll plug it out there. What's your Instagram account? It's the underscore lab underscore gym. And I'm somewhat active on there. I need a good social media expert to work for us now. I heard we got you some employee earlier. Oh, yeah. He saw an episode, and he's like, he moved out here.

He was here coaching the 10 a.m. CrossFit class or the 10.30. Well, act like you know him now. That's all right. I was probably watching the video. But, yeah, I mean. And now we removed him from the job. Do you have a shaved head? No, actually he didn't.

He was the one. He was the one, yeah. And then also check out World Class Weightlifting. Yeah, World Class Weightlifting. We still offer that. BarbellShug.com. Yep. The ABCs.

All that included in that. LabGym.com. The ABCs are in there. Got the posters. The posters are legit. I don't know if I can zoom in that far. From LabGym.com. Those things over there.

Those things are awesome. That's Tom Suma right there. Best junior lifters in the country. Oh, shit. Tom's here. I didn there, the best junior lifters in the country. Oh, shit. Tom's here. I didn't know Tom was here. I knew he was from Missouri.

I'm going to say hi to him. He's about 20 pounds heavier every time I see him. Well, I was just at Travis's place, and we were talking about Tom, and Travis had nothing but good things to say about Tom. But Tom is a freak of an athlete. He is so athletic. It's ridiculous. Ian Wilson was my favorite lifter for a long time, for American Lifter, like recently. Tom's technique is really good, too. It's ridiculous. Ian Wilson was my favorite lifter for a long time, for American Lifter, like recently.

Tom's technique is really good, too. For many reasons. And part of it was Ian's just such a badass. He's ferocious and fearless and all that. And the thing about Tom, he has the same qualities, but it's just smoother. His technique is great. Love you, Ian.

But Tom is just, like, I've seen Tom grow up, and, like, he was an amazing youth lifter. But now that he's grown up and stuck with the sport, people don't realize this is the real deal. This is how it really works. He's put eight good years in with Ben Overkamp, coaching him, and Ben's a very conservative, meticulous coach, and you've got to earn those attempts.

It drives some athletes nuts, but it's very wise. Over the years, Tom's come automatically. Watching him is like watching any basketball player warm up before a game. It's just smooth as hell. I barely even recognize him. He's gotten so slow, man. So now he's gotten strong as hell, and Travis has really taken him to that next level of it.

And, you know, they've got a great environment out there, and they've just been crushing weights left and right. It's just pretty nuts to see. But that's why, you know, talk about the American lifting and their potential. That's where it is. The kids, man. The kids.

You know, so that's something that So that's something that's not overnight. We need good youth programs, and we got Live4Life Jim here and Jimmy Duke working with those guys, and it's stuff like that that really can make a difference. So people that are interested in youth weightlifting that really help them start there. Or to lift now. Develop them fundamentals and build over the long haul.

Yeah, fuck my CrossFit competition, right? So then it's simple. So talk about percentages. Tom is so good. He's one of those guys that would clean and jerk damn near his front squat. Very efficient. If he adds a pound to his front squat, it's going into's like so talk about percentages like you know thomas so good like he's one of those guys that would clean jerk damn near his front squat very efficient he adds a pound to his front squat it's going into his clean and jerking and so he's now like the numbers he you know he's hitting like 150 190 routinely and his squad numbers are not that impressive but now that they're going up he's just gonna get strong i was like man like shit it makes me feel terrible

about myself realizing with the strength i have i should be hitting these crazy numbers but i just i don't have what Tom has, you know. He's ballsy. He's efficient. He's fast. He's got a few years. You've got a few years. I've got some time left.

I'm just going to deadlift my brains out, really. But, you know, I just hope he stays healthy and can keep it going all the way, you know. Right on. Very cool. Anything else you want to add? No. I can't think of anything now, but I'll send you an email. It's a great show, man.

We appreciate it. Episode 500. Yeah. Yeah. Well, for the listeners out there, give us a five-star review on iTunes. If you're watching on YouTube, give us that thumbs up. Go to barbellstrug.com. Sign up for the newsletter.

Alex might work something out where you get something cool. You got to find out. I don't know. You got to sign up, though, first. And thanks to all the people who are in our online training program. You are the guys who make this happen. So if you're a flight, muscle gain challenge, barbell shredder, barbell bikini, and the new Shrug Strength Challenge,

thank you so much because you allow us to do this. So appreciate it. If you want more on those programs, go to barbellshrug.com. Yeah, Justin, thanks for taking the time out of your day, man. Appreciate it. Thank you. Get that handshake. Great to finally interview you.

Thank you, sir. Pound it. Boom. I was just trying to pound him. Awesome. Sweet. Great show, man. That was a lot of fun.

Yeah. An hour 15.