Barbell Shrugged - How To Address Painful Movement w/ Dr. Dave Tilley & Dr. Dan Pope - 216

Episode Date: June 29, 2016

This week on Barbell Shrug, we talk to Dr. Dan Pope and Dr. Dave Tilley to learn all about how you can look at someone and say, Damn, you look messed up, fool! Hey, this is Rich Froning. You're listening to Barbell Shrugged. For the video version, go to barbellshrugged.com. Hey, I see you sitting there, lonely by your keyboard. If you want to, just whip your fingers out. Put them on your keys. Type in http://www.barbellshrug.com. While you're there, swing on over, sign up for the newsletter. We'll send you some cool free stuff. And make sure to check out Overtime. It's a sweet place with a bunch of sweet stuff.

And last but not least, I know you're trying to find a bitchin' t-shirt to get your mom for her birthday. Head on over to merch.barbellshrug.com. Oh, man, I cannot wait for this one. So much. So much. So much about to happen. What's up? One time. One time.

Doing a deadlift. Dude, I almost shit my pants yesterday doing a deadlift. One time. One time at doctor camp. I treated a couple people who were doing the Boston Marathon like two weeks ago.

And she's like, yeah, I just shit everywhere at the end. I was like. No, I've seen those pictures. 22 miles in. I was like, I'm seeing those pictures. I was 22 miles in. She's like, I'm not stopping. Oh, man. All right.

You having trouble? You got it? Yeah. Welcome to Barbell Struggle. I'm your host, Mike McGoldrick, here with Alex Macklin. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. We got to make sure he's... Screw Dan.

We don't need Dan. Sorry, I just blew my air ball. All right, yeah, so tell that story again. Who were you working on last week? Oh, a Boston Marathoner. She was training for the marathon, and there was two. One did when, I think she said she was running with someone, and the person in front of her just like 22 miles in, just let her rip.

She's like, yep, just going to pee right here. Just going to poop a little bit and finish my last four miles. Do you know their Instagram handle so we can say something? No, I'm just kidding. What's up, guys? Welcome to Barbell Shrug. I'm your host mike mcgoldrick here with alex macklin what's up ctp behind the camera and our special guest today dr dave tilly and dr dan pope uh we're here at power monkey fitness camp hanging out for a couple days interviewing a bunch of really awesome coaches so i was really excited to get these two guys on i've met you both before.

You both have actually worked on me individually. You both did different things, but you both told me the same thing. Mike, you move like shit. In a polite way, though. We were polite about it. Very handsome, though. All right, so tell us a little bit about yourselves. Dan, we'll start with you.

Okay. I guess the biggest thing is that I've always really, really been into fitness. Fitness, I love. I guess my biggest background is that I've always really really be into fitness right fitness. I love I guess my biggest background as a meathead haven't really done too well as you can see at the same time I've always been really into learning as much as I possibly could And I was a guy that was in the gym with a whole bunch of rusty chains from my dad's farm because I heard about Westside is I gotta try this out. I got a 75 pound chain on one side the other side is like 40

I don't care. I'm ripping out these things in the gym and screaming. So I've always loved fitness so much, just didn't really know exactly what I wanted to do. Did exercise phys, and I was also a pole vaulter in college, Division I school of Rutgers. I didn't know that. Very cool. Yeah, yeah. And then I've always loved being a meathead, so I continued training throughout that. And then when I finished up, I got to strength conditioning that was my main thing did

that for a few years and the thing was it's just that there's so many people over in pain and I didn't want to refer people out anymore I just wanted to help these individuals so then I went to physical therapy school and through that I wanted to be able to help these individuals that wanted high levels of fitness and performance and I think I've I think I've done that I've started CrossFit coaching while I was in school, and I've continued throughout. And now I've had that nice little niche and the balance between the two.

And that's my biggest thing. You're a doctor of physical therapy? Yes, sir. Oh, there we go. Okay. And then you were just talking about something a minute ago. You're in the board. Tell me about the boards.

Oh, yeah. So that's a board certification. Okay. Once you become a doctor in physical therapy, you have to be board certified, which is a little bit different. So you take the board certification, then you're licensed as a physical therapist. And if you want to go on for more education, you can. So Dave and I have done that. My specialty hopefully will be in orthopedics, and Dave's is in sports.

But you take the exam, and then you wait for three months. So we're just waiting. And you also have a blog or a website? I do, fitnesspainfree.com. Okay, yeah, I've heard of that. One more, and then I know you probably don't like talking about yourself, but there's one more cool story that you've got to bring up. Don't you have a national title in something?

I do. I actually got into Strongman after I finished up college. I was doing a little bit, you know. So here's me, like, bringing my farmer's walk handles into the college gym and throwing as much weight on and walking around the tables. I just love doing whatever it is. It has to do with strength and conditioning. Really enjoyed it.

Started competing. Did it for about four years nationally. 2009, I won a state title, 200 pounds, New Jersey, and a national title at 175. Wow, that's awesome. That's awesome. Very cool. What about you?

Cool. So I think I always start saying I'm like a true artistic gymnastics background. I started gymnastics when I was three and did 18 years up through college. So I competed at Yale, four years at Springfield College. And I've always started at that avenue knowing I wanted to probably go to PT school and work in gymnastics quite a bit. So I did four years at Springfield and then did my doctoral work after for two years and I guess right out of school I just knew I wanted to help athletes and higher level people so I got into gymnastics and I work a lot in traditional artistic gymnastics with you know these little nuggets that are like five years old and they have knee pain to some of the girls in

the junior olympic team who are trying to make the 2020 games or trying to train for the elite cycle okay um so that's where i do a lot within three years ago um i have a blog and website i started for gymnastics and it quickly became integrated with kind of dan's work so i had heard about crossfit got into crossfit a little bit but i was like as an artistic gymnastics i was like you know i think i'm all set with crossfit right yeah but uh i learned more from my good friend d Bacardi is a gym owner at North Shore CrossFit. And he was one of Greg Glassman's like original, I guess, start up. So taught me a lot about weightlifting and about CrossFit and gymnastics and stuff like that. I'm like, all right, I could try that.

And then I heard that Dave was doing Power Monkey. So I started getting more into CrossFit and met up with Dan. And so now I kind of do everything on a daily basis. I treat at Champion Physical Therapy in Boston with Mike Reinald and Lenny Macrina. And then I also coach women's gymnastics at night. I run the company in the morning, and then I travel and speak a lot on the weekends. And you do a lot. I try.

And both of you guys are coaches here, is that correct? And what is kind of now this camp here, everybody's got their own special thing. What is y'all's special thing that y'all bring? Yeah. So we do a combination of things and it evolves pretty much from camp to camp. But our biggest thing is that people are having trouble getting into certain positions, right?

So Chad Vaughn wants people to get in a rock-solid bottom position of a squat. Dave wants you to be in a great position when you're hanging, super comfortable on the bottom of a dip. So a lot of people have a lot of trouble getting there. So how do we get to that point? So people come to our station and we give them more information on how to get in better positions in a dip. So a lot of people have a lot of trouble getting there. So how do we get to that point? So people come to our station and we give them more information on how to get in better positions

in a squat. And we also try to help them to try to figure out where their limitations may be. So they're very accurate when they go home and they're able to do their own work. So do you do like more assessments or is it more hands-on work? So it's not really much hands-on stuff. It's mostly just assessment work and then how people can help themselves for the most part. You know, if we get a chance to get our hands on people a little bit, we will. But for the most part, it's mostly teaching. When you say hands-on, you don't mean like moving them through certain ranges or do you mean like actual like manual therapy?

We don't do manual therapy. A lot of times we'll do some assessment that has our hands on people. But yeah. Well, that's kind of more I was meaning. I was just trying to clear that up. Or maybe I just used the same term and my jargon is not correct. No, that's okay. It's been pretty cool because last year, the last, oh, Dan was doing your fifth one. This is my third one. So the other camps, we were more a separate station.

They would rotate through all the stations and they would come to us for two hours. We'd be like, here's a deadlift. Let's break that down. Here's an overhead. Let's break that down. Here's an overhead. Let's break that down. Here's a handstand and muscle. We just like bombed knowledge on people just like straight.

And everybody's like. Yeah, exactly. So we found that it was, I mean, this is Chad's idea. He wanted us to be more integrated with the stations, and he was like, we'd rather take advantage of them and have them with it. So this has been super cool. I spent the last two days with Chad. We did front rack and squat one day, and then today we did a clean and jerk. So we'd go through his, what he's looking for position-wise.

He'd be like, here's what can go wrong in a squat. He'd pass them over to me. We'd do an ankle assessment. We'd do a hip assessment. Here's your limitation. You work on this, and we work on mobility between sets. That's solid. I like that idea a lot better.

Very specific to the movement. Yes. Because Chad can see it live, and to his extent as being a weightlifting coach, he may not be able to prescribe a lot of those things, like the correctives that he might need yet. So obviously he can look at the person and give them cues, but having you guys there to take it to that next level has got to be really helpful.

Yeah, yeah. Intuitively, good coaches know a lot of experience. They see things. They pick up patterns. But it still comes to a point where Jody was even saying, she's like, someone comes to me like, ah, my knee's kind of bothering me or I have an old shoulder injury. Yeah.

And he's like, Dan, Dave, we can take those people over and be like, let's modify this today. Let's do this. And like, we'll like,

we'll goblet squat somebody like Chad would goblet squat somebody who worked their lower body, but then we would fix their front rack in between. So we're not going to contribute to their issues possibly, but we're still going to give them a training effect. Yeah. That's a, that's,

that's a, um, interesting point because I feel like nowadays coaches, especially that CrossFit coaches, they're expected a lot, and I don't feel that they're all comfortable knowing where to draw the line. So at what point do they say, I can't fix this. I need to send it to someone else. And how much do you think they need to know?

Well, I think here's the thing. Pain is very, very complicated. We spend a lot of time trying to figure it all out. So when athletes are having pain, you should have someone you can refer out to. I think there's two things that are tricky with that. So some people just aren't going to go. So you're left dealing with these people that have shoulder pain, knee pain, whatever it is, and they're just not going to refer out.

The other thing is you have to have a good practitioner. You have to have a physical therapist that actually understands what's going on when you're trying to coach. So a lot of times what happens is someone goes to a physical therapist, physical therapist maybe gets it better but can't make that transition back. Plus they're not communicating with the coach. So the coach doesn't really know what's going on. Right, right, right. and someone goes to a physical therapist, physical therapist maybe gets it better but can't make that transition back. Plus, we're not communicating with the coach, so the coach doesn't really know what's going on.

Right, right, right. What's great for us is we can say, hey, Chad, you know what? That athlete over there, his ankle's really stiff, and I think that's his major problem. We can really focus on that, and maybe here's some modifications you guys can focus on while that pain is going down and ways you can get that squat better. That way the coach knows what's going on because we're not going to be seeing that athlete in the future chances are but the coach is going to be dealing with it so would

you say it's a good practice for coaches or really any trainers to put their athletes through some kind of screen some kind of movement screen assessment yeah yeah before they do anything i think so i mean that's what we're trying to do you know i don't know we find that a lot of people come to us in pain and we we ask them, you know, how did you, like, when your first intros were going on or in your first classes, like, what did they do for you? Like, well, we did some PVC pass-throughs. We did some squat therapy, things like that.

And then that was kind of like it. We're like, all right, well, there's a little bit more to these patterns. And I think gymnastics-wise, thinking about what I know people are trying to do, they're very complex patterns, and they have a lot of requirements to get in those positions. So we have people that are trying to get to these, like, you know, big skills, but they can't put their arms over their head. Right.

And you're starting off. So we're trying to come up with ways to educate people about, like, how can you take this one front rack and chop it into pieces and be like checklist, wrist, elbow, shoulder, T-spine. And if not, just front squat, get a training effect until you fix this. Right. Temporarily. Right. Sure. And what else might be an issue with that? So let's say you do narrow it down to like, you know, shoulder mobility and the front rack and maybe some wrist issues as well. Like,

like, um, breaking that down even further, like what are some things you might look for? Let's just, let's just use the front rack for example. Sure. Absolutely. So, uh, I, I tend to find the most that people have, do have true, uh, wrist extension limitations. So I tend to find the most that people do have true wrist extension limitations. So for a handstand or for a front rack, you need about 90-plus degrees of extension. And you think about what people do all day long in CrossFit, right? It's like barbell, gripping. It's like grip city. So people get so roped up and nasty in their flexor pronator mass.

In their life. Yeah, exactly. They're just sitting there on the phone or on the computer. Keyboard warriors, right? So we find that a lot of people get extremely stiff in there. They have like T-Rex arms after they do a workout, but they never spend time to recover that. So somebody can progressively lose their extension,

and then their handstand's like S-shapes or their front rack starting to dip. So I find that most commonly. We also find in the shoulder that many people have, there's kind of two aspects. One is that the programming maybe is not balanced to horizontal push to pull and vertical push to pull. So we can do a ton of pushing volume and a ton of pulling volume and rope climbs and all those things overhead. But they don't do horizontal rowing. So people slowly start to move internally and stuck.

And then they try to go front rack and external rotation. And their lat, their teres is very stiff and they're like, and they can't get anywhere. Yeah. So would you supplement their training because i talked with you earlier and you said that you use uh gymnastics to like almost rehab or do you use that uh gymnastics training like supplement or rehab yeah absolutely we try to find um i'm a big fan of giving people anyone who's uh really involved and is dedicated to their fitness i'm trying to find especially shoulder wise like you should be programming balance but you should also do accessory work of just the boring basics like cuff work you know posterior cuff work and posterior scat work to balance that out barbell rows and things like that i think that those people need to be very hyper vigilant about

maintaining their soft tissue quality with so much more training and just three days a week just making sure they're getting extra strength in the back and that they're also maintaining you know good control of their joint at a low rotator cuff stability level dan what about you what would you would you – I guess going back to the front rack idea, I think that coaches should have the basic competency to know the joints that are involved in their front rack and be able to screen those, which we're trying to do.

That's our whole goal. And then the coach can say, hey, you have your issues here and here. I don't need to stretch your wrists if your wrists are good. I shouldn't be stretching your shoulder if there's an issue somewhere else because what we end up doing is getting into trouble because we're overstretching some joints and not others and then a lot of times we're just not seeing any progress so if we can be super accurate and know hey i have a thoracic spine issue and a wrist issue that's why my front squat doesn't or my

front rack doesn't look very good i can really hammer those and know i'm being accurate and not potentially hurting something else well we talk about that it's like so hard to measure progress sometimes and if you're not doing the right shit, then you're not going to get progress in the right places. And even having a basic understanding of the differences in mobility, stability, and then control. And, you know, obviously, like, what would be the first thing that you would want to do with someone

when you're trying to screen something like a front rack? Like, what's the first thing you would have them run through? Yeah, so we break it out into all those joints, and we do that actually at Power Monkey Camp. So we look at the wrist, just like Dave said. We want to see that 90-degree angle, even a little more if you can, and then we'd like to see if you can do that actively.

That was pretty bad. The ninja test. Yeah. The ninja test. Yeah. I feel tingling in my fingers. Oh, that's a good thing. That's good.

Keep on holding it. That's not good. Yeah. No, it's not good. I was like, I'm doing good. No, no. The whole podcast Keep on holding it. That's not good. No, it's not good. I was like, I'm doing good. No, no. The whole podcast. You got it.

The other thing, too, is we do a little assessment for the elbow. Can you touch your knuckles to your shoulder? You'd be surprised. A lot of people can't do that. And the issue there is that you might have a flexibility issue with the elbow. It might just be the mass of muscles squishing together. It's your problem, right? Yeah.

Too much guns. Is it my biceps? Yeah. Or is it that I don't know that range of motion to actually actively move into it? I think you have to try to figure that out a bit. And that's where it's nice to have a physical therapist to look at that and figure it out.

Because if you just go like this and it feels like you're smooshing a lot of stuff together, you probably are. Yeah. If it's a little springy and you feel like, oh, my tricep feels like it's a little stretchy there, then maybe it is a tricep issue. Yeah.

And then you can also bend it. Boop, boop, boop. And it feels like it just stops automatically. Yeah. It's more is a tricep issue. Yeah. And then you can also bend it. Boop, boop, boop. And it feels like it just stops automatically. Yeah. It's more of a capsular end feels that we call it. So we can direct our treatment from a physical therapy perspective. Okay. I think what's important for coaches to know is that if you can't do this,

you have to make up motion somewhere, right? And we'll screen the thoracic spine. We'll do a little assessment and see if you can actually move through there because that's another important part. But if you're missing all those things, the way you get into a rack is by actually rotating through here. So coaches have to know if I want to get my athlete into this position and I can't bend at my elbow, I have to get the motion somewhere else.

I'm potentially putting some joints at risk if I'm overstretching them. But that's kind of the nature of the beast. And if someone starts hurting somewhere, at least you have an idea of why that might be happening. Yeah, I've had a lot of medial elbow pain from when I was spending a lot of time in a front rack and weightlifting, and it's because of a lack of good position in my front rack. And, man, that little sucker took forever to heal. Yeah, forever. It's tough because we find, unfortunately,

so many people that come to us and, like, my elbow, like my shoulder hurts when I do something overhead, right, or my front rack, and they're like, oh, I stretch my shoulder out like they're gonna do whatever they're doing bands or doing stretches or doing stuff the problem is like you can't move from your wrist like your t spine is so locked up so these people unfortunately spin their wheels and the things they choose to do that are just kind of blindly picking exercises sometimes without an assessment in front of it are making them worse i've had so many people come to me like man my wrist is gonna explode when i do a front rack and they're like grinding up their soft tissue and doing all these mobilizations well this is hyper mobile to

make up for something else yeah so you have something more hyper mobile and you still haven't fixed your issue yeah so start with that asset you would have to start with that assessment to see where you are and then what would you do once you had that assessment once you had that information what would what would be the next step sure so like dan said we try to find that one or two things that are the biggest factors and it's like the equivalent of being a sniper and not a shotgun you know you try to like pick one or two things that are the biggest factors. And it's like the equivalent of being a sniper and not a shotgun. You know, you try to like pick one or two things off and just like blow a bunch of exercise and hopefully work. So we give those people. Great analogy.

Yeah. Great cook. Shout out. Yeah. If they're with us in the clinic, I'd probably do treatment, hands on, you know, whatever you want. Sound, dry needling, whatever you pick. Sound? Like ultrasound?

High pulse. Okay. Just breathe. Laser. He puts his mouth on it i just sing to the joint and it loosens yours like uh what was that your private parts howard stern yeah yeah is there any specific song that you use uh i'm taylor mclaughlin no no lately i've been on heavy metal so they don't like to be singing to that so it stiffens a little bianca

just relaxes everybody yeah there you go so we'll do whatever we want and then we'll retest you know we'll do it in the clinic live again if you find that one thing you can really work on it usually you see a rapid improvement and use a retest model so one or two things treat all these different things oh it's a little better there and then send them home with equivalents of those exercises to do on their own with their own mobility kits or whether they have a control problem some some motor control drills yeah and you just like say every day i want you to go test yourself in the front rack, do these drills, go back, retest yourself. If you're making progress, just hammer away until the next time I see you.

Yeah, consistency. Do you think it's important to put a little bit of the power into that client's hands to give them some awareness so they can actually do some of that treatment themselves? Oh, yeah. I mean, I know it'd be great for business for them to come back every day and work on you, but at the same time, you want to build some autonomy in that person, right? So they can kind of learn a little bit. Like where do you guys draw a line with that?

That's kind of a hot topic in therapy right now just because, you know, I think as a profession we want to try to put that power in the individual's hands. So I think as much as we can, we should probably be giving them the tools to work on themselves. The other thing is that you can't always do the same things that someone can do with their hands. So a lot of manual techniques are very, very good. You have fast results, and we want to reinforce them, obviously,

with good exercises that someone can use at home. So doing both is very, very important. But, you know, that business model is keep people and come back. I don't know that's necessarily the best thing. Well, you guys, you mentioned rapid. Now, what would be quick? Because we were talking about this before we got on the mics, but, like, how fast can somebody expect to see a change?

I want to know how long something is going to take. Because, let's be honest, like, we want – the whole point is to, obviously, one, like, move and feel better, but also we want to do the movements. Sure, sure. How long does it take? Always answer, it depends. It's terrible.

I'm sorry. No, I depends. It's terrible. I'm sorry. But there's a spectrum that ranges from someone who many, maybe they think they have a mobility problem and it's really that they're just like addressing the wrong issue. And if you fix that thing, they haven't been touching for a while. You can get a change really quick. Perfect example,

the wrist and the T spine, like you can manipulate someone's T spine, give them some mobility drills and like, wow, that feels amazing. Right. So you can see that rapid change some people have experienced so much you know stiffness and soft tissue over training volume they don't come to see you till they're like three

or four or five months in pain yeah just haven't come right and they're doing still working out that tissue is very very stiff and that may take a little bit longer maybe two weeks for that okay let me ask you this then so for someone that you did a quick manipulation on and you saw change and say in the front rack, how long, um, why, why doesn't that stay? Why does it go back? Why would they have to do it again? Great question. So I think this is again, where it comes down to the autonomy of the patient to be a little bit more disciplined with their technique. Okay. So, so if someone's been whatever thruster in front rack for so long in this position and now they have this, well, you just can't go push heavy weight and hope it shows up right your nervous system is probably under stress and it will default back to its whatever compensation pattern it had okay so that's where we like to team up

with the coaches like what are your favorite chad what are your favorite front drag drills to do between sets okay so that we might teach that person like i know you feel better but like it's like the honeymoon phase like don't hit the brake you know don't hit the gas pedal too hard yeah and just try to go pee all your front squat right You're going to get in a stress, you're going to fall right back into it. So I think that if people are disciplined to do, I think consistency over intensity sometimes is more important. So if someone is dedicated to get that change, and then if they're really disciplined about their technique while they're lifting,

and metabolically, if you're in the end of your workout, and you fall apart in your technique, and you feel like crap, well, you're enforcing bad habits. You're digging a hole. Exactly. You're just digging a bigger hole. Yeah, i've seen people who have listened really well and they see rapid changes they feel great two three weeks later and it sticks i've seen people who make great changes and they can't be disciplined into their technique and go through progressions and they fall right back is that is that something that they would need to continuously

do like it just be just the whole time it's a new habit that you got to develop i think it's really tough and again it's based on the individual i think that you need to get you want to strive for getting a change as fast as possible and that's really important and i think there's two issues some people don't make fast changes and some people revert back really really quickly i've had some people i do a few manual techniques and then they don't really reinforce much anything and they come back to clinic and it's still there and it's really good that's not the norm there's a lot of research about foam rolling that's coming out and they'll show that like the changes you make that definitely happen but maybe only last like three to five minutes right it's not permanent yeah yeah so it becomes really challenging interesting yeah tell

us about tell us about that because i haven't i have not heard about any of that research but yeah so that's some of the newer stuff i guess what's happening is foam rolling has become more popular so they're trying to figure out what the heck does foam rolling actually do. So a lot of this research, a couple of studies I'm thinking about, they're foam rolling the calves. What they'll do is they'll foam roll the calves. They'll check the range of motion first. They'll foam roll the calves, and then they'll check afterwards. They make a change, and they keep on checking it at intervals

and seeing how fast it goes away. It goes away pretty fast. So it's a little bit concerning, right? What am I doing when I foam roll, and how do I make that stick around? Yeah. I think a lot of the misconception too might be that and and i don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but some people might think that when they do that that they're they're like creating an actual structure change like like when they roll out the calves are like i'm getting more flexible it may

not be the case they're just making something that's temporary yeah right releasing some tension in the joint so it improves the range of motion. Anything you could add to that? Is that kind of in line with what you think some of the arguments are? Oh, man, yeah. We try to do as much as we humanly can to make that stick around, right? So what we'd like to do is try to do some type of mobilization that improves range of motion. Then we want to try to reinforce that actively with more exercises. We kind of go along this spectrum concept.

So we start with just something to mobilize the joint if it is stiff or the muscle, whatever it is that's stiff, work on that, make a change, and try to reinforce that with something else. And then we go into the pattern that we want to improve. So let's say that's a squat. We try to go into a deep squat, something along those lines. And we want to try to reinforce that even further with some type of lifting at the end. Okay.

And we can do – there's so much stuff that people do to try to get that to stick around. I mean, taping is another really big one. Sometimes we'll tape people to try to make that stick longer. But it's a big, difficult thing. You'll tape people? Yeah. Rock tape. Oh, okay.

I'm sorry. Other types of tape. So that's the progression that you would say mobilize the joint and then do active stretching. Yeah. Essentially, or dynamic stretching or active stretching? So whatever works. We have a bunch of different concepts that we like. I think using a variety of things.

And the idea is that you use what's most effective. So if I have an athlete and his ankle flexibility issue and I have 10 ideas and I try them all, but two of those worked out extremely well, those are ones I'm going to try to push after. Yeah. So there's a lot of techniques and a lot of things that do work. So we're trying to find what works best.

Well, a lot of stuff now, like a lot of passive stretching is very popular now like a lot of people doing romwod so i mean what's what's kind of your because there's a lot of debate on passive versus active stretching what's what's kind of y'all's opinion on that yeah again i think anything that works we use a lot of stretching you know we use a lot of strength training we like eccentric work to try to build range of motion uh we like manual techniques a lot of joint range of motion stuff we like self manual techniques so teaching people how to do some of these things on our own self-stretching whatever works to be honest with you and sometimes with our evaluation it leads us down the path of one thing over the other and that's uh i think it's more pattern recognition after doing it for a lot of period of time

and just finding what was most effective and giving the same thing to another person that has a similar problem. Yeah. Yeah, with the ROMWOD, I feel like it's one of those things that it made something that's not so popular and fun to do really fun to do. So I think, obviously, we're a generally tight community. Like in the CrossFit community, we're all pretty tight in movement. And I think that now there's more people doing it. I think it's probably a really great thing.

Now, it's not to say that, like, everyone should probably be doing it, right? Like, there's a thing called joint laxity where a lot of people don't. Yeah, this guy. Yeah, I live in that world. Yeah, gymnastics for three years. What's joint laxity? I'll let you tell us. Sure.

So there's, I mean, with gymnastics, I deal with people that are way too mobile. Like, I have girls that come in here and if they sneeze, they're going to pop their shoulder out. Oh, I've seen it. Yeah, I mean, so there's definitely, like you said, the community is tighter, but there are many people who are hyper mobile in general. And we do. You know what I mean? There's definitely, like you said, the community is tighter, but there are many people who are hypermobile in general. And we do this thing called the Bighton's test where we, you know, test to see if their collagen is maybe more extensible than other people.

Those people, we start to get really nervous when they start doing stretches, especially you don't always want to hit certain structures that may be contributing to that. So on your shoulder, right, you got your bony alignment, you have a capsule around around that you have soft tissue around that with some ligaments right certain stretches may be putting more strain on the capsule and if that capsule is already loose and you have a shoulder that's really mobile and you're trying to get your soft tissue down here maybe because you're just feeling a little tight but you're doing stretches that are on the capsule well that's problematic because you're not fixing one thing and you're causing more motion elsewhere and i think that causes a lot of headaches for people with shoulder pain. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it's just like what you were saying earlier is like you're stretching too much. Like you can stretch too much. Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Especially the joints that, you know, and we all might know this, but everyone listening at home may not understand, but like there's a big difference between mobility and stability. Sure.

And recognizing when someone needs one of those more or more in one or another is really important. So doing things like you have mobility screens, but you also have joint laxity screens, the bait and test like you were just referring to is really important, as important to probably run through when you have a new client. And so because if that person is going to go join a class for the day and y'all are doing hamstring mobilizations and all this stuff, you know, to prep for the deadlifts and the total bar, they may not need to do it.

Absolutely. So it's super important to see that too, I think. You got it. I think it's all about being that sniper. You have an athlete that comes in. Sometimes they are hypermobile, you know, but the same thing is you find people that are hypermobile at one joint and then really stiff at another.

So you just have to be really smart about that and then try to cater towards the athlete. So you have an athlete that can touch the floor, no problem, but the opposite way, they can't extend from their hips. I mean, just because they're flexible one way doesn't mean they can't benefit from flexibility somewhere else. So with Dave, for example, you said you're hypermobile in some joints, but it's some joints. Is it all joints?

Is that how it usually works with someone, or does it depend on joint by joint? So again, it's individualized. People who are just grossly lax, like just everything is Gumby-like, those people tend to not have too much stiffness at one joint or the other. But some people do have like i have like a hip that does get pretty stiff that especially as i do more volume i was doing a lot of olympic lifting my hip did stiffen up and i had to take care of it pretty good so it can acquire over time with your volume

you have people whose shoulders become a little bit more stiffer like we said you grip for two months straight you're gonna lose some of that motion but your joint can be lax generally but you can still limit your range of motion. A little bit of a muddy water. I just read an article recently from Eric Cressy, and he talked a little bit about the joint laxity in athletes and talked about some of the physiological differences they have because of that. So you could probably elaborate on this better than I am.

I don't want to butcher it, but how some of them produce way more adrenaline than most people because the tissues or blood vessels are constantly being stretched, and to avoid pooling out within the muscle belly, adrenaline is being sent to shut that down. Yeah, I mean there's a lot of effects like that can happen. So someone who is, again, systemically, they don't have a joint laxity problem. They have a collagen hyperextensibility problem. There's collagen everywhere. There's collagen in your heart. hyperextensibility problem. There's collagen everywhere. There's collagen in your heart.

There's collagen in your stomach. There's collagen in your veins and in your blood vessels. So these people are affected at a global level. So, yeah, somebody may have really a problem with vasoconstriction, and that might affect how well they can regulate their blood pressure or their hormonal background and their cortisol levels. So they sometimes get this hyperadrenaline response because there's a big dilation, and they're trying to rebound.

So your brain doesn't want to tank out of blood pressure, and it modulates the amount of hormonal stuff they have. What else could you see or learn about someone who might have that kind of build? Yeah. With their personality, their nervous system, is there any other indications? Sure. So we find that those people also tend to have some cardiac issues. Sometimes, again, that collagen in the heart affects the way their valves go.

So, I mean, thinking about a fitness environment you have somebody walks in they're very mobile they have this very relaxed like yeah my shoulders are very loose and slidey well their blood pressure and their heart conditions may be regulated by that you'd be very careful about how hard you push them when they're first starting off in a high intensity workout oh interesting think about yeah that's something people probably don't even think about so complex yeah their nervous system will regulate differently based on how they kind of respond to things so we're pretty big geeks and we study a lot of i study a lot of motor control research and a lot of the autonomic kind of stress response stuff so i thought i'd read briefly too that they they often feel very tight in their muscles so they do more mobility

work but it's like no like maybe soft tissue to kind of relax that tightness feeling perfect so a perfect example is uh i have a gymnast who just got her shoulder because she's so lax. She feels tight all the time because it's a natural response. Her brain's like, yeah, I probably shouldn't let my joint dislocate. So it's like, and it's trying to pull it. Like Eric Cressy talks about how trigger points maybe just laid down in response to tighten up that muscular length.

So people feel tight. And I will do some soft tissue on someone if they're very guarded acutely. But then as soon as I can, I'm doing a ton of dynamic stability work. they're they have hyper you know hyper mobility in the joint their nervous system knows that and sends a response to kind of tighten things up and that's maybe why they feel that way yeah i think a good example and again this is kind of theoretical with something we believe in it's fun to talk about though yeah yeah you see people a lot of

times with maybe some pain and pinching in the bottom of the squat, right in the front of the hip. That's a pretty common thing that athletes have and coaches are told. They're like, oh, I'm stiff, I'm stiff. Usually when it starts to become painful, you start getting tight muscles all around the area. It's this thought of like, whoa, were you stiff and that's what led to the pain or was it that you had this pain and your body is trying to protect you, so it's stiffening some things up, which came first.

Yeah. I can tell you that. Go ahead. that you had this pain, your body's trying to protect you, so it stiffened some things up. Which came first, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I can tell you that. Oh, go ahead. Well, I've had a variety of times where I started having pain in my hip, and then things just stiffened right up again. And then I'm, like, trying to decrease some of that maybe tone or whatever you want to call it of that stiff muscle, which is another, like, can of worms I probably shouldn't talk about.

Or perceived threat. Yeah, yeah. And then, again, like, do you want to be more stiff? Is that stiffness good? Is that stiffness protecting you? Should we stretch through that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then again, like, is, do you want to be more stiff? Is that stiffness good? Is that stiffness protecting you? Should we stretch through that? So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, for the, for the general community, we're a bunch of tight folks. So, so I mean, like me, I'm dude, if you watch me move, you're going to be like, well, you have other great qualities. How is he weightlift at all? You said they, you said the next part of it part of that progression, what was that? Was that after you go through the

active stretching? Well, I think it was really cool. And it's neat that we've actually had a chance to work with some of the weightlifters here. We've been working a lot with Jody and Mike Service. And then Dave's been working with Chad quite a bit. But what we want to do is just transfer that over to weightlifting. Yeah, to a specific movement. You got it. And one of the things that's a little challenging sometimes, because we're in the station here and a lot of times we're working in a clinic and we're not necessarily in a gym we don't see the athletes lift too much i get a chance to do some of that because i i work uh across the verve for some of my patients i get to see them train afterwards is that we immediately want to see them in that new position

yeah and one of the things we talk about is that some people will pass all these screens and the movement still doesn't look very good so at that point you might you might be scratching your head, like, why is this? But I might have to cue that athlete or get them a different position or show them what I want, you know, and it might not be a true stiffness issue. So it's been a really good marriage between the coaches here because we have coaches saying, hey, this athlete can't get in the right position. We're like, oh, no problem. Let's break this out.

And it's like, well, this is not the problem here. Let's try this cue, and it works out really well. Or like, yeah, you're stiff there, and that's the reason why here's one or two really specific exercises, get after those. And then once that clears up, progress back to the movements that your coach is telling you to do. So would you say not even touch that movement until you've tested and retested and it's okay again? Well, again, I think it depends a lot on the situation, but I think that you probably should try to reinforce things afterwards. If someone is so bad, right, that technique looks horrible, I wouldn't load that up.

But there's some cases where I could say, like, okay, so you're a little stiff when you hang from a bar. It doesn't look like you have a great position. But I think if you're working towards that position on a bar, it might even be beneficial because you're working into that new range of motion. You're trying to learn that new range of motion after you've just done the mobilization. And I think, again, that's going to help to reinforce that new range of motion that're trying to learn that new range of motion after you've just done the mobilization and i think again that's going to help to reinforce that new range of motion that you just yeah you just try to create so i think that's so hard for people to i mean it's hard for me like if somebody told me to well you need to go back to pvc because actually at the cert uh because i don't move the best and especially squatting and they're like no well you don't

need to load that bar up and And that can be an ego thing. It's a tough pill to swallow. But you've got to recognize that it's not going to get any better. Like you were saying, just dig in yourself a hole. It's not going to get any better if you don't address it. Sure. I was going to add on Dan's point, kind of bring it full circle of yours, but, like, how long does it take, right?

So we can have that rapid change. We can have someone, like, give it a couple weeks. And then we have people who just spin their wheels because, as we talked about before we got on here, it's like some people are doing the movements people who just spin their wheels because, as we talked about before we got on here, it's like some people are doing the movements that are contributing to their dysfunction. So that shoulder's stiff. My lat, my tear is very stiff.

I'm still doing leg lifts. I'm still doing chest-to-bars. I'm still doing rope climbs. I'm still doing a lot of tight bar path compression. It's like take one step back. How can you do all your homework and your mobility work but then not modify anything or change anything, I should say? You can go a different option and still get your like your drills done that's huge you can do different progress progressions that don't they don't stress or even lifestyle choices that you're doing you got right so i have an example of a client that i want you guys to tell me a little bit more in

the science and like why this works but um he has a really bad problem um being super tense when he's hanging from a bar but i've screened him with some shoulder stuff and super tense when he's hanging from a bar. But I've screened him with some shoulder stuff, and he moves fine. He's got the range of motion. But when he jumps on a bar, I can even hear his breathing pick up. His breathing picks up faster. Getting sympathetic. Exactly.

So the nervous system is affecting that range of motion, and we've done things like had him lay on the ground, and we've done a lot of breathing cycles. And then he's gone on the bar and been like, ah. Yeah. Good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So can you elaborate on that, like why that actually works? Well, you said sympathetic, isn't it?

Yeah. The response, the fight or flight. Yeah. I think it's tough. And I think maybe Dave will have some better answers for you. But I think sometimes just the level of the movement is a bit too hard for someone. They can bring their arms overhead,

but they can't do it with their full body weight. And they're maybe a little bit fearful. They're not able to go through the full range of motion. Maybe subconsciously your brain's like, I'm not comfortable with you in this position. So a lot of times you might have to step back with that individual, do something a little bit easier, maybe a full overhead hold with a ring row where you maybe have partial body weight and work through that a bit and then progressively get a bit stronger. Yeah.

So, yeah. That thing you said about being fearful is huge. Like I've recently been recovering from a lower back injury and getting into certain positions, like especially a deep squat. My coach was just actually commenting like it's almost like I resist going down to the bottom. I like resist that change of direction because I'm scared to get that run with that range of motion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with Dan. I think that I mean, I was being a gymnast. I try to use the examples that I'm most familiar with. And you find people that, you know, have it on the ground.

They look great. But you got to remember, like, your arms are not inherently weight-bearing structures. Like, you have 25 years of mileage on your legs. Yeah. But many people have not done the same. These joints are not made for weight-bearing. So gymnastics, we developed 5, 10, 15 years of progressive drills, progressive weight-bearing to help adapt those structures. People coming in to, you know, CrossFit for the first time or anyone trying adult gymnastics, we developed five, 10, 15 years of progressive drills, progressive weight bearing to help adapt those structures. People coming into, you know, CrossFit for the first time or anyone

trying adult gymnastics, right? They're like, all right, well, God, that handstand looks great, right? So they kick up and they just like have this terrible position and they just keep blasting through reps. So they look great on the ground, but they just have zero experience on their hands. And we asked those people, it's like one of my pet peeves almost is like, they're repping out these terrible handstand pushups. I'm like, when you go to the? Barbell load up 80% of your body weight and just push jerk with the worst possible form no reps like that's ridiculous Yeah, well, we're kind of in the same boat here. Yeah, it's true. Yeah We spoke with Dave Durante earlier and we talked about that how his structure in a handstand position is so different than anyone else That's kind of new coming into this and how that just took years to develop. Absolutely. You know like his when he's in an overhead

position stacked it looks like his shoulders look like hips almost. Absolutely. He's so lined up and that's why he can hold almost a handstand for 10 minutes. Sure. So he's not working hard you know he's exactly he's utilizing his alignment for perfect balance anytime you're shifted outside if your wrist is stiff your shoulders are stiff you are working so hard to keep yourself up versus trying to dial it in. So performance-wise, we talk about these injuries being pushed off, but also performance-wise, if you're trying to handstand walk, handstand push-up, whatever you're trying to do, you're wasting so much energy.

You're going to gas out so fast. It's an interesting side note here, but Dave Durante was doing, I think it was muscle-ups the other day and then ring supports at the top. When he gets to the top, his tricep actually relaxes. Yeah. Like you're just stacking your joints up. Whoa. That's crazy.

Dave, your tricep's relaxing. He's like, yep. Just chilling. For those who can't see or don't know, a ring support is when you're at the top of the rings and you're locked out like this. So go home and try that and feel how contracted your tricep is. And then imagine being in such a stacked, locked out position

that you're just bone on bone, not using any energy and the muscles just relax. That's crazy. Yeah. I think sometimes you might be able to do that with like your bicep, you know, like in a pushup position or something, but that's pretty insane.

Yeah. That's impressive. Yeah. One thing I was going to ask. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. If you had,

well, I was just gonna say he's a freak. Yeah. One easy analogy too, is that if you have someone who's doing a press, let's say, and the weight gets too heavy, they start to lean back and press overhead. So if you have someone who's trying to do a handstand pushup and their form just falls apart completely

and you try to get them in a better position and it's not happening, maybe that's because they're just too weak. And, you know, I think sometimes when, like Dave was saying, if you're looking at an adult fitness population, they may not be strong enough just to just hang from a bar. It sounds kind of crazy, but that does happen. Attraction forces are very new to many people. Yeah may be a stupid question but i'm gonna ask anyway um so let's say let's say you know i'm one of the main my main things mobility is just consistency

right like just keeping on doing it and it's not fun it's boring it takes a long time yeah like but like what if i could do one thing you know, foam rolling, what would that be? What would you say I should do? Probably like some sweep kicks. It's really hard. Sweep the leg. What I would say is what are your goals? Maybe you want to be the best Olympic weightlifter or something.

Say, hey, okay, so that squat is limiting. Take a look at your squat and say this is your biggest limitation. And then we try a few things. Try a handful of exercises. We're like, you know what, after we tested this, this exercise really gave you the most bang for your buck. That's what you need to work on. Okay.

I think that's probably the best way to go about it, you know, as opposed to saying, hey, like, you know, you sit a lot, so maybe you need to do hip stretches or something. Yeah, because I feel like with mobility and people prescribe mobility, they just have you do a broad range of stuff. Shotgunning. Yeah, it's the shotgun. And to me that's not – I don't dig that because I never – like you were saying, I feel like I'm spinning my wheels.

I don't see the progress, and I'm not specifically targeting. Sure, sure. And, yeah, maybe it's good for overall health maybe. I don't know. Maybe with ROMWA too that's why it's something that's so successful is because it just tells you what to do. Like there's no bullshit around it it's like just do this

and when it comes to mobility work we know so little about it and so like the general pop and fitness world know so little about our bodies and why things hurt and why we're tight

and if we're just told what to do it makes it way easier exactly right I think the whole thing is very very daunting because I might go through an evaluation with someone

and I'll have very specific things and the patient will turn around and say like, so I just need to stretch more. And that's not what I said at all. Like, no, this and this, it's too complex, you know, just goes over people's heads. And they, if someone can just say, Hey, do this, this and this every day and tomorrow do this and this, and here's a video, follow it much easier. You know, do you have your own movement screens, or do you use the functional movement screen or anything like that? Well, I'm certified through the FMS, the Selected Functional Movement Assessment, Y-Balance.

We use Moods Perform, which is kind of like their continuum model. Ditto. Yep, so we love that stuff a lot. One of the things that happens is that it's not necessarily specific to the movements that we want to see, right? So the Selected Functional Movement Assessment, they want to see maybe 50 degrees of extension, shoulder motion. When Dave's in the bottom of his muscle-up, he's got like 110.

So if you want to get really good in a muscle-up, 50 probably won't cut it. So what we've done is taken a lot of those concepts and just applied it to what we see for athletes. What's that athlete's function? What's the basic need that they have? You got it. And build around that. So that was another question I was going to ask. We talked about kind of where to start as an athlete

and getting into all this, but what about a coach, like someone who runs a gym, and we're telling them a lot of different things right now, and they're probably super overwhelmed on where to start with their clients. Like what's one thing you could tell them to go check out, like a good resource to get started and where to learn? Oh, fitnesspainfree.com. Shameless plug. Hey, do do it man yeah but why tell us why well i think uh i think part of it is that you know i tell this in my seminars

too like the thing about being a coach or trainer is that you have to learn about the body body's really hard and i think that if you're coaching squats on a regular basis you should be a master of the squat you should know everything about the squat, all the joints involved, what's going on. I think that's super duper important because otherwise you might just be missing the mark. So as a coach, it's important to really thoroughly understand these concepts and then simplify as much as possible when you're trying to give it to individuals. And that's really what we're trying to do. Interesting.

As much as we can. Fitnesspainfree.com. Fitnesspainfree.com. It's a good one. I mean, we actually use a lot of stuff from Gray Cook, the Selective Functional Movement Assessment. We really like that quite a bit. Selective Functional Movement Assessment? Yeah. Okay.

It's kind of like the, people say it's like the big brother, the physical therapy brother of the Functional Movement Screen, which is not necessarily true. The FMS is something a little bit different. I love the FMS. I use it all the time with clients still. Sure. It's my movement screen that I use is like point A to point B to point C. Like, how is this getting, it's a standard that you basically use that you can see. Like is my mobility or movement getting better?

It's very simple. Yeah. That's a good place to start. I guess the easy answer for me is that it's not easy. We try to simplify as much as possible. And what we've really done is try to make that easy. It's like how do you get a group full of people, 20 people in a class class that have to do push jerks today to know about their shoulder mobility what do you do in that situation right so we try to make it simple so that you can say okay let's uh let's do

this really quick screen against the wall you you and you you guys have problems check this out you you and you you have these problems in our warm-up we'll plug in these exercises and then while we work out you're going to see those problems and maybe use those exercises in between sets so people can you know it's a good point too and maybe even a group setting and i'm not going to say that they all have the same like exact problem but if they're very similar you could group them up and like if you have people that don't have shoulder issues they train together and do certain stability exercises and if you have those who have really tight shoulder issues they work together to do those same exercises that's exactly what I do with the girls that I coach. I have 25 girls on our team that we coach.

They're all completely different. So we screen them once a year, and then intermittently it's like, you guys have 20 minutes to do preventative work or take care of your issues. These five people have hip mobility issues. You guys do this. Especially in shoulders, it's like you guys, you are pretty stiff. You do foam rolling, some mobility. You people do not touch the foam roller.

Go grab a kettlebell. Half-filling bottom-up presses. presses do your cuff work do all that stuff and then i just kind of navigate around the group and everyone's in their own spot but that takes for that to be successful has to have everybody has a screen before that yeah so you know what it is so i think on my side i can do that but on a crossfit side that should be part of your day one you should know that athlete inside and out yeah well that's yeah a coach, you're going to have to start with that screen to educate yourself on that screen. Or if you can't, then maybe you need to go outsource that

and find somebody to do it. Yeah. I think that just a personal thing, I think that every coach, not CrossFit, any coach, if you're a full-time coach, you should never, ever stop learning. Every day, you have things on your brain, write them in a notebook, and just chase out the resources that you find.

Because I think the only reason that Dan and I have been, we're nerds, hardcore, but we're constantly curious. I have patients every day. I'm like, damn, what is going on? And I just read research, or I talk to people, talk to people who are around to try to figure it out. But that makes coaches really set the bar really high. Yeah.

We're maybe not the best people to talk about this, because we're probably opposite end of the spectrum. We want to know every single thing we can. Too much. I have a question. I want to know

what do you guys disagree with? Disagree with? Yeah, amongst each other's thoughts. Something that you believe that he thinks is total

bullshit and something that you think. I want to end this on a high note. I am not a fan of man buns.

I don't like his hair. Just kidding. Shots fired. Dan gets more facial hair every time I get him. Let's keep it movement related. Well, I gotta be honest. If there is anything.

I think we've kind of grown together and we're very much influenced by the same people. And as we progress through these courses and we learn more and more we bounce ideas off each other. And I'd say, you know, obviously there's gonna be more similarities and differences but some of the exercises I might choose for my athlete might be a little different than Dave's go-tos. That's probably the biggest thing. I can't say outward that there's something I'm like, Dave, oh, my God, I hate it when you mobilize those ankles.

Those ankles do not need to be mobilized. You're wrong. I don't think that. I don't think that there's a huge difference between Dan or a lot of the coaches we talk with because everybody knows we're all right and we're all wrong. Like you could read a research article that says this is the best thing you have to do it two months later like that dude's full of crap we just proved it in a cohort yeah yeah that does happen science constantly evolves and there's new stuff every single week and every single things that I believed in I was sound on and I read an article on my blog two years ago

I'm like oh my god I gotta take it off the. Yeah. That's generally who I'd like to try and take my advice from is those who think that way, that don't speak in absolutes and say, look, this is what we know right now and I discovered this. It's probably going to change, but for right now, this is what we're going with. Yeah. And then those that are open to say, all right, I was wrong. Let's move on. Let's scratch it and grow from that.

It's definitely a little bit of a pet peeve of mine. People that kind of, and I think it's tough because as a professional if you're polarizing it makes you popular and uh if you're polarizing sometimes you're just spouting wrong information or you have something that you maybe don't know fully or you're not acknowledging the other side of the spectrum so i think when we're looking for the truth and what's most correct if we kind of polarize that way sometimes we're not getting the truth or not getting close enough to it but that's a thing like if you want to be popular i can say you know like you know you shouldn't be stretching your hamstring super dumb but i stretch my hamstring sometimes and if i stretch my hamstring every day

so if someone has something that i'm like you know i don't really just agree with this but a lot of people are liking it i really value this person i'll try it you know i'll give it a shot and if it doesn't work now i know a little bit more about it and i think that makes me a better clinician and coach. I think a lot of people are just afraid to try shit. Like, just try it. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But then you know you tried, and it doesn't fit you.

Or the fear to change, too. You're so dead set in something that you learned or researched or discovered that the thought of moving on from that could be very challenging to do. Social media has made that very hard to deal with. Personally, on our side of the healthcare community, it's like people spend hours just debating with people online about, no, that doesn't work because this doesn't work. You should stop foam rolling.

No, that doesn't work. Don't foam roll. Stop attacking the foam roller. You're just using it wrong. Don't foam roll, but don't stretch. No, don't strengthen. That's dangerous. Don't do this.

Are we going to not do anything? Who's treating someone? Just sit here and argue. Actually, you know what? Nothing's right, so don't do this like are we gonna not do anything who's treating someone yeah nothing's right so don't do anything you are and that's how it stays you're stuck with it deal with that so let's end on a positive take away so we asked you you know like what's the one thing the one resource and you know fitness pain free calm if you want more of what we have to say that's a good thing I I don't want to just sound like mine's the best.

I want to hear what Dave has. I think it's individualized based on what you want to learn about. My personal opinion is when you find whatever it is, find out the expert in current day and age who's maybe the expert in that field and either buy some of their resources or find what they want to talk about or subscribe to their blog or

pay for their services, go see a course. Don't try to find only one thing you have to follow. Find someone who has many years working in that field or that department and pick their brain. There's been plenty of times when I just tell people, like, hey, can I come hang out at your clinic? I just want to learn. Just like, I'll buy coffee.

Just let me listen to what you say. And then based on what they think, what they say, and what works for them, I go backwards and find the research articles, the courses they took, whatever it is, and I formulate my own opinions off that. Who are some people that have influenced you? I have to give a shout-out to my boss, Mike Reinald. Love his stuff. Yeah, he was in Birmingham, Alabama with James Andrews,

which is really the pioneer of Tommy John surgery and baseball stuff. So Lenny and Mike, who are my bosses now, they really wrote some of the research that we kind of came up to PT school with. So I took all of their information from the shoulder concept and put it into gymnastics. And that's made me really, really adapt a successful model for gymnastics and CrossFit. So I have a lot of respect for them. One, because I think that I work a lot and I'm pretty dedicated to it. I have no clue how these people sleep.

Mike has two kids. He runs Champion. It's just insane how much he does. He runs a very successful blog and website. And then like eight weeks ago, they were like, hey, we like what you're doing, Gymnastics CrossFit. Do you want a job? And I was like, bro, sign me up.

Yeah, man, I saw that announcement. I was pumped for it. Oh, my God. That's awesome. That was cool. Yeah, so I have a lot of respect for them for how much they put in and how much they've – I mean, Dan and I going through school, if it wasn't for their 10 years of hard work, we wouldn't know.

I'm really off a really good starting point for my shoulder because of them. So I hope personally that through 10 years that we can try to create stuff for people that the next generation will have. What we're talking about now is like we need to do this. That will be standard practice for people in the next 10 years. That's kind of my goal. I mean, I'm saying the same thing Dave said, but finding a mentor is so important. I have mentors all over the place. I'm constantly calling people.

If I have a trouble, I'm just, hey, I'm having trouble with this patient or I want to learn more about business or whatever it is. Actually go out there. The people that you think are doing a good job, just go hang out with them. You know, buy them coffee. Have some dinner with them. Pay for dinner, whatever it is. Go out there and learn as much as you can. It doesn't mean you have to practice exactly the same,

but you're going to learn a whole heck of a lot. And then it's going to lead you to where maybe you want to learn next. Yeah. That's great advice. Thanks. Great advice. Anything else you guys want to plug? When you talked about fitnesspayingfree.com, what about you? Where can we find more information That's great advice. Thanks. Anything else you guys want to plug? We talked about fitness,

pain free.com. What about you? So mine shift movement science, shift movement science. You can find Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, blog,

stuff like that. I mean, the only thing we can talk about is I guess the product that we're, we just finally finished up, which is hilarious. So me, me and Dan are two hours apart in time zone. So he's at 6am every Thursday for a couple hours.

And I'm at eight. I'm like, Oh, we're going to get the camp. We're going to finish this product. We we're gonna send it to the whole coaching staff we get here no wi-fi like oh my god this is a nightmare right yeah but so we i think a year ago we probably started the idea from camp but we wanted to have how do we get everything we've talked about plus more in these screens these assessments into the hands of people that they

can use plus with collaboration with all the other coaches here because that's what we really wanted to get yeah we took the the best we went to every station and said what is Chad saying what's Dave saying what's Mike what's all Jody what are they all saying how can we help these people get to their goals the best so we took they have monkey method gymnastics monkey method only is coming out soon which is specific programming we took both those programs everybody's advice and what we think about and made a monkey method movement essentials which is everything we talked about screen where the joints involved what can you

do for this what can can you do for that? And we just finished it. Yeah. Is it like a video or a video series? So it's a, it's a monstrous PDF. It's like a 90 page text PDF that has all the breakdowns, but there's like 150 video links within each of it that go to private YouTube links or some other stuff. Nice.

Are there pictures? Lots of pictures. Lots of pictures of just me and Dan. Outtakes from a solace where we filmed it. I can't wait to dive into that. When will that be out? May 16th. May 16th.

What I really want to say is we gave one to Mike already, so we'll have to give you guys one too. Yeah, yeah. In the inner circle now. You guys talked a lot about how do we give some resources to coaches to figure out these movement problems at the most basic level. How do we screen it? How do we make it easy?

That's exactly what we try to do. So we're trying to just solve all these problems just like everyone else is. From what we're seeing as far as something we can add to the community, this is it. This is what we're trying to do. And we just made that into a product, and it's coming out May 16th. Very cool. Right on.

Thanks for sharing, guys. Awesome. The advice has been a blast. Thank you so much. Cool. Thank you, guys. My pleasure. A lot of fun.