Barbell Shrugged - How to End Knee Pain, Increase Your Vertical, and Develop Athleticism w/ Knees Over Toes Guy, Ben Patrick, Anders Varner, Doug Larson, and Coach Travis Mash Barbell Shrugged #584

Episode Date: June 9, 2021

Today’s episode features Ben Patrick (“Knees Over Toes Guy”), coach and founder of the “Athletic Truth Group.”   Ben overcame debilitating knee and shin pain, as well as subsequent surgeries through a personal journey taking knee and foot strength training means to their fullest potential.  Ben transformed his basketball career, going from being continually injured and under-achieving to having a successful junior college stint through improving his own knee health and performance. This culminated for Ben with a scholarship offer to Boston University for basketball, but due to NCAA eligibility rules, Ben turned it down and began training athletes.   In this Episode of Barbell Shrugged:   Common misconceptions about knee pain Why knees over toes is the answer to ending knee pain. Baseline exercises for rebuilding the knee from pain to performance Why walking backwards is often missed for ending knee pain The importance of sprinting for increasing performance   Train with Knees Over Toes Guy   Ben Patrick on Instagram   Anders Varner on Instagram   Doug Larson on Instagram   Coach Travis Mash on Instagram   ————————————————   Diesel Dad Training Programs: http://barbellshrugged.com/dieseldad   Training Programs to Build Muscle: https://bit.ly/34zcGVw   Nutrition Programs to Lose Fat and Build Muscle: https://bit.ly/3eiW8FF   Nutrition and Training Bundles to Save 67%: https://bit.ly/2yaxQxa   Please Support Our Sponsors   Organifi - Save 20% using code: “Shrugged” at organifi.com/shrugged   BiOptimizers Probitotics - Save 10% at bioptimizers.com/shrugged   Garage Gym Equipment and Accessories: https://prxperformance.com/discount/BBS5OFF Save 5% using the coupon code “BBS5OFF”

Shrug family, this week on Barbell Shrug, Ben Patrick. But before we get into all the good stuff, I had a baby this week. That means life is really crazy right now. So we are holding off on the Diesel Dad podcast this week. I am doing these reads right now from my house. I just got home from the hospital. Baby arrived 10 days early.

Mom's super healthy. Mom's super happy. Baby's even cooler. And we have a baby boy to add to the Varner family, which is incredibly cool. Very, very stoked for you to listen to this episode of Barbell Shrug. Ben Patrick, I really believe is out there doing some work that is really incredible. There's very few times that we're coming across people in 2021 in strength and conditioning that are doing things that are like radically different and really cool and helping a ton of people. So if you have knee

pain, if you are interested in performance, make sure you go check him out, Knees Over Toes Guy on Instagram. And I really think that this episode here is going to change your perception of knee training, understanding the knee joint, how you can progress movement. I have many friends that have injuries to their knees from football in high school and college, and I've turned them both on to his method. So if you have knee problems, if you are interested in bulletproofing your knees, make sure you listen to this, and the Varner family is a plus one right now. So Diesel Dad podcast and the YouTube stuff is all on delay until next week,

until I get back to regular life a little bit. And I appreciate everybody sticking around. Appreciate you letting me be a part of your fitness education. And life is really good right now. We're home. Everyone's healthy. Everyone's happy. And before we get into the show,

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M-A-G-B-U-R-E-A-K-T-H-R-O-U-G-H.com forward slash shrugged. Use the code shrugged 10 during checkout. Friends, I actually take this every single night. It makes me sleep super deep. And I'm on that seven, possibly eight. And guess what? I got a kid coming. It's going to be a disaster. So I'll be taking the mag breakthrough just to get some little naps in on my three hour feeding windows of a brand new baby coming into this world.

I highly recommend mag breakthrough. I think it's a great product and it actually is like radically helped me with my deep sleep and it shows up on all the tracking devices and stuff when I take it. So head over to magbreakthrough.com forward slash shrug and use the code shrug10. Friends, let's get into the show. Welcome to Barbell Shrugged. I'm Anders Varner, Doug Larson. Coach Travis Mast is in an airplane today, headed out to California to go to a wedding. He made a terrible decision because Ben Patrick's on the show. Knees over toes guy. Man, I'm going to jump right to the end, right off the bat.

Okay. What is it like when Joe Rogan runs like a four-minute webinar for you to all of the people in the world, and you wake up the next day and you go, whoa, where did this come from? Oh, I mean, it was surreal. I'm super grateful for Joe. And there's a lot of people like Joe, you know, who have shouted me out. So it's like, I'm just grateful for anyone who wants to spread it.

And you can see that the kind of people who want to spread this stuff, like it's coming from the heart. It's not like Joe's pushing a product. He's like, this shit helped me. I want to tell other people, but someone else doing that on the street. It's like, you know, I, I can't let it change. You know how I appreciate anybody, you guys having me on. It's like, it's awesome. I appreciate, I appreciate it. Like crazy, definitely surreal, you know, know seeing Joe but even for you guys you guys are like you know it's insane for me so like this is like a surreal moment later today I'll be like holy crap I was on you know I was on your podcast I actually hear what Joe said about you what specifically did he say was helpful to him he's actually mentioned me on his podcast three times. And it's really cool

because he's, he's taken the time to study it. So he's helped people learn like, the whole idea is that these are abilities that we can have, you know, at our own level. It's not just about like, pushing into something crazy. And there's also, you know, some different tools to strengthen nooks and crannies that maybe aren't common, you know, but look at his background, you know, him being into fighting and martial art, like mixed martial arts, like, like, of course, your strength is a huge part of it. But where you get strong could be a big, you know, difference in holding your body together, being able to kick explosively. So, I mean, he actually talked about my system. Yeah, it was almost like an ad, like if I would have like scripted it for him, like he knows my shit, you know, so he was able to just like talk about

it in a sensible manner. It's not about forcing into this stuff, you know? Yeah. What's really cool. Oh, go ahead, Doug. Sorry. I was gonna say for people that don't understand or they have not been exposed to your kind of overarching philosophy behind training and and having you know healthy knees for the long term how do you think about training what is what is kind of the the bend that you take on things it starts from the ground up. So obviously the weaker, the feet, the stiffer, the feet, the ankles, the weaker, the knees, it's just not really a good way to be, but like, what is that built on top of? So that's the underlying philosophy as well. Let's take our time here. A training life is long. What if we actually take the time and build from the ground up and build balance from one side to the other and build, you know, think about ankles, knees, hips.

Well, we have not only the balance of the ankles to the knees to the hips, but the balance of one knee to the other knee. How many of us have imbalances? And then the balance from the front of the knee to the back of the knee. So something like a Nordic, like I do that once a week for years, you know, and now I can do it, even though I was like the worst guy at that. Or I train two times a week. I train my freaking tibialis muscles, you know, for years like that. I'm trying to be like the strongest in the world. Like, why not? It takes five minutes. Like, like why, you know, so it's's everything's common sense build from the ground up build balance from from

one side of your body the other build balance from one side of the joint to the other and then it kind of gets not necessarily more complex but you know more details from there but i feel like that's kind of the simplest way to explain it so obviously if, if you're doing that, you kind of just wind up with the philosophy where the whole idea is not to have weak links. So it doesn't mean I'm the strongest guy, but I'm having a lot of fun with my training. And I'm looking back like, wow, you know, even a deadlift weight feels lighter than last year. And, you know, like, I'm excited for the road ahead because of taking this slow approach.

It's actually like, it's easier to look back two years ago and be like, holy shit, I'm way more athletic. Whereas when I was focusing not on those things, and just on the big, you know, the big prize, I would look back two years ago and be like, fuck, I'm like exactly the same. I don't know if that makes any sense. Wait, so you learned all this through your own experience, like you had knee trouble yourself. And then you you over time came up with methods to to kind of rehabil through your own experience. Like you had knee trouble yourself and then you, you over time came up with methods to, to kind of rehabilitate your own knees. Is that correct?

Yeah. If you've ever known like the, just if you've ever trained basketball players who, and if you remember like the weakest need basketball player you ever trained where they like can't even squat like their own body all the way down. You know what I mean? Like, like I was that guy. So chronic knee pain started at 12. I followed what the trainers told me. I never let my knees over my toes. By 18, I had partially artificial kneecap, meniscus transplant, quad tendon repair, had never grabbed the rim. Like if you're like a basketball player and you've never grabbed the rim

and you have no kind of connections whatsoever. Like I finished high school, just a complete zero, like no recruitment at any level. And I followed everything, you know? And my knees still freaking hurt, but I was just obsessive hard worker. And so I didn't give up yet. I painted walls for a couple of years

just to make ends meet, trying to pay to go to one of these kind of last chance you kind of like, you know, get a second, I still thought I was somehow going to get a basketball scholarship. And if you just look at the bottom of an Olympic weightlift or something, you know, like, like for most people, your knee goes over your toes to some degree, but imagine literally training thousands of hours and like never allowing that to occur, having horrible genetics. Like my dad couldn't touch the rim either. You know what I mean? And then trying to jump thousands of times, you know, so not letting my knees over my toes, like if, if anyone in the world was like, how depressed are you from that?

I would have probably been like the most depressed person from that. And then because of my obsession, once I realized, Holy crap, that's what I've been missing. Now I probably became like the happiest person alive from mastering that subject can throw down. Like,

it's still surreal. Like I can't wait to go to a court because I can fucking dunk. It's like better than my birthday. Anytime I get to go to a basketball court because I lived so long. So I'm just a really extreme case of like how shitty life can be from not letting your knees over your toes to then like how exciting I got a division one basketball scholarship when I was 23 people back in my hometown are literally like what is happening like that's is that the same person like so so yeah so it's just my life had a very drastic difference so when it was kind of when it came time to be like what do I want to do with my life

well I want to make sure people can know that that knees over toes is just part of training, literature, science, and exercise database. It's just part of the whole. So I've kept my life really simple. And I've now lived that for quite a few years of just every decision is made on like, you know, what would that 12-year-old me with knee pain want? It keeps everything simple. It keeps business. This isn't simple. Every day of my life is really simple. I live for the 12

year old me with, with knee pain. This is the first program. I have a neighbor to my right that played college football. I have a neighbor to my left that played high school football. Both of them have had somebody roll on their knee and the size of the scar from the complete rebuild for both of them is it. First off, I can't believe that you can even walk after seeing the size of the scar that they do when they, when they go in and repair knees sometimes. Why is it that when you have a knee, because there's a zillion football players out there right now with bad knees, and you go to the literature or you go to the PT,

and nobody's talking about it in the manner that you do. Why has the knee just almost been disregarded over the years well i mean there's a bit of a disconnect right between like the medical side imagine how skilled you have to be to do like a surgery or something you know what i mean like you have to be incredibly skilled at that and then in strength training it's kind of been something that like you can either do or you can't do. It's not, it's not been a big topic where it's like, like, oh, like your knees suck. Here's what to do. You know, like if we look back, I mean, uh, Olympic weightlifting has all kinds of gold and gems and examples of, of things they do for training their knees.

Um, strong man has plenty of gems for training the knees. Power lifting has plenty. I mean, like Louie Simmons hamstring work, like no offense to anyone else, but like this guy was like, like in the year 3000 on, on training the posterior chain. But because each sport had its own goal, no one, I think really took the time to like address knees just like as its own subject, you know, like, like there was gems from each of these, but you have to do what you have to do for your sport. You know, just, just look at, at, at basketball. That's its own sport.

And so if you look at most basketball players, oh my gosh, they have like no mobility. They can't do basketball. Players aren't training to like do the freaky stuff. I'm doing like, like sissy squats from like Tom Platt's era and shit. No, no basketball is training like that. But, but now basketball is so easy for my knees. It's a joke, you know, like my knees never hurt. I've competed a thousand times without knee pain now because I trained with those isolated

tools, which really came. I mean, we're talking Bob Gadget. I like to say his name like that. I don't think that's how you pronounce it. But if you see how it's spelled, G-A-D-G-A, Gadja. Like that's kind of hard to say. I just like Gadja. Yeah, Gadja's it.

Gadja. I think it's the other way. Anyways, you'll see what I mean if you look it up. I mean, that guy was training the Tibby Alice like 50 years ago. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like with a tibialis like 50 years ago. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like with a bar and everything and loading weights on it. So I try to do 20% of my body weight for 20 reps from training thousands of people.

I found like, what can the freakiest athletes do on the tibialis? You know, like that's an isolated tool right from bodybuilding. Going backward with a sled is, you know, from strongman for a long time. Well, what happens if you do that 100 miles. So that's my goal for people. If you if you do my system, you don't have a choice over a two to four year period, you end up going backwards 100 miles. So these old your old football player neighbors, if they just went backwards 100 miles over a two to four year period, their feet muscles would start to change their their feet muscles would start to change, their lower leg muscles would start to change, their knees would start to feel less pressure on them, their patellar

tendons would get, honestly, if you add up all that, that blood flow and regeneration, I'd argue it says by putting in the work over time, I'd say it's as good or as better as a PRP injection. Again, no offense, but we're talking, you know, over time, add that all, add that all up. Yeah. So all these tools are just from different places. And I'm a very, you know, I'm just a really obsessive person. And so I've, you know, I've gone around and I've had all kinds of mentors, you know what I mean? Who, who have specialized in any of these different areas and then tried to, so, so with my training, there's no ego. It not like i'm only training just to be bulletproof so every tool is like how does like how do i make a program that just makes

me as bulletproof as possible like oh how do you set up for a deadlift i don't know that that's your go find a fucking deadlift expert like yeah i'm just using it doesn't mean that my system is like the only thing you should do. I do my system and play basketball. Another guy just hit an 875 pound squat and he does my system as the accessory work for his powerlifting, you know? So hopefully that kind of makes it clear as well. Like with my pro like, and I look at the future, like, man, I'd, I'd love to pursue Olympic weightlifting or, or more muscle size. Obviously, bodybuilding is relative. There's drug and non-drug, but just more like I'd love to pursue more muscle mass or this or that.

And this kind of gives me the framework that I can then go do something like basketball or whatever that may be tough or injurious. But now it's a lot more fun just because, you know, I know the ingredients that are going to make me hold up to be able to do that and enjoy it without pain. Because you didn't come through like the academia system. Have you gotten a lot of pushback from physical therapists that see what you're doing and go, that's all wrong. That's not in the book. That wasn't part of my degree. Yeah. And I think there was a lot of pushback at first but i also was new to you know just how to get the data across and i think i was just much more aggressive with it and i was i was you can see i'm like i'm very passionate about this so it's kind of like man if you don't do this you're fucking it you know and that's not the right way like that's not how you connect with someone else

i understand i i totally know that if you don't eat and train the way that I do, you must be stupid. Right. Can't be my approach or presentation at all, for sure. Yeah. So I knew a lot more about knees than I knew about life and how to, you know. Being friendly, presentation. Yes. So what's funny now is so many of my supporters actually are physiotherapists

now because even a lot of this stuff comes from physiotherapy and it's just kind of like, okay, well, if physiotherapy takes X quality to there, well, what happens now if we actually just keep loading it? Like what's the difference between a guy who weighs you know who has some extra mass doing a body weight step down for someone who's skinny do it like it's just load but like what like if that physio movement is like proven you know like why not make that part of your training regimen and so for me being like a non-natural athlete couldn't grab the rim almost like in a nutshell it's like how did you improve your vertical physiotherapy with a fucking power lifting ego mentality you know what i mean but

like what happens if you only try to get like jacked as fuck on a reverse slant boards i can put my body weight on my back and do reverse slant board step up so of course i can dunk literally the same angle at your knee that you have to go knees over toes when you jump there's no 40 yard there's no 40 inch vertical in nfl combine history that the knees did not go over the toes your potential is in the hips your ability to harness that and go upward is then in the knees your ability to harness all that with a running start is then going to go through that ankle and Achilles. So you're the sum of these parts. It's not like the knee is more important than the other parts. But I just think these other parts have been easier to build.

The knee is like that middle child that like, you know. Yeah, it kind of gets disrespected. It's a funky one in the middle. And I think most people just look at it as like a joint that stabilizes and it hinges there. But nobody really knows how to train it. Yeah. And because, you know, because it's got those tendons on either side, it can be quite tender and painful in plenty of different positions. So it would be common sense to see Tom Platz and go, Oh my God, you're going to blow out your knee if you try that.

Well, number one, he did like, you don't start where he started. And he's in his 60s still teaching squat courses. Like that's my philosophy. Sissy squats are insanely hard. Right. If you try to jump into that and it hurts then yes that would be bad for you like the pain is your body telling you like that you're not going in the right direct but then to say like avoid that completely that actually leads to more of a long-term disaster like you'd literally be better off like pushing through some shit than just avoiding a problem completely and that would be the same for anything in life like if you if it's you know it can be tough to just avoiding a problem completely. And that would be the same for anything in life.

Like, if you if it's, you know, it can be tough to work out a problem right now. If you go try to blow someone's head off in an argument, not going to work. But now if you if you just avoid something forever, probably going to wind up with like a major issue later. And that's like the Oh, now the freak knee injury or now I have to get a knee replacement. Well, I've been avoiding my knees for the last 30 years. And I no strength that, you know. Yeah. I'd love to dig into some of the more technical aspects. Cause I feel like if somebody's looking at you and you're training your tibialis and you're doing these, you have this weight attached to your feet and most people probably haven't seen the equipment that you're using.

Like what are kind of like the technical components or the equipment that you're using like what are kind of like the the technical components or the pieces that you're putting into place of saying these are our core movements and this is why we use these yeah and that's the cool thing is i can explain it simply and any equipment is actually like dirt cheap compared to regular like over time i've come around and been like wow the the simpler something gets the more likely it is to be true funny enough yeah and so like it actually cost me less to like train the way i want to train than than regular gym equipment yeah so let's look at like let's look at the ability we want to have and then it trust me this is gonna be really simple i promise

um if we look at like an Olympic weightlifting, you know, full squat with just like that magical form, you know, um, you know, that that's an ability we want to have. So like, like I want people to have the ability and the mobility to do like a full squat with load with no pain. You know what I mean? Like that would be like a great, like you ain't having a knee replacement or a knee surgery. Like if you can do that with like strength without any pain, with excellent mobility and no knee sleeves. And not that there's anything wrong with those, but I'm just saying like, so that would be a quality that for example, like 99% of the NBA, like wouldn't have, you know, people with chronic knee pain, like, all right.

But if we trace that back, so just under that is just doing that one leg at a time. And that's been a very tricky subject. We know that we need unilateral training. But because you have this other leg in the way, it's like, do we put the other leg forward to do pistol squats, but then that kind of, you kind of sit back and it's a little more of a glute exercise. And then the loading can almost be like, like if you hold weight in front of you, it almost makes it like easier to balance. And that's actually a huge thing that counterbalance and not actually using the musculature for a lot of exercises, even when people get into like RDLs and they think they're doing hamstring work, but they're really doing it. So there's

counterbalancing weight almost not using the musculature. Yeah. So, and my philosophy is any, like, there's no such thing as a bad act. Like that's my, I don't think there's any such thing as a bad exercise, but the pistol squat. So like, it's, it's kind of tricky at like, and then if you take like a regular, like what we think of with the split squat, we're at these kind of these 90 degree angles. Like, again, you know, still a lot of hip musculature, a lot of upper quad. That's not what that Olympic weightlifting squat looks like in the bottom. So if we look at the bottom of an Olympic weightlifting squat, you actually can do that position one leg at a time. Because Olympic weightlifters used to do this dating back to the 60s they would catch in a full squat looked exactly like a double leg squat

only the back leg was stretched out so what does that require insane hip flexor length which is going to take most people months if not a year or more to be able to even get into that position probably because our modern lifestyle of sitting or, you know, all the double leg squatting, it's not, that's not helping lengthen the hip flexors. You know what I mean? Then if we stop sprinting in life and set those hip flexors can get quite short. Yeah. Just for anybody that's listening to, sorry,

if you go back and look at pictures like he's talking about, uh, because everybody learns snatching and catching the bar in the hole with two feet under them, they probably don't even know that they used to catch it in a split stance. And that's what he's talking about. You should totally go watch people do it. Just split stance snatches. Yeah.

And actually a funny clue is like some of the guys who did that actually ended up with like legendary longevity because they would be like, oh, like if if this knee hurts then they would do this if it like they would without realizing it it was almost like an ultra elite rehab tool oh when i catch under two legs this knee so and now and so so like i can't remember his name but basically one of the most famous guys to do that ended up breaking a ton of masters world records later on It's kind of funny enough, but holy crap. Would that be tough at first? Most people can't even like get into that position. I don't I mean

But if we elevate the front foot that that replaces, you know how lengthen that back hip flexor needs to be and Then some people that's painful, you know And so you can use assistance and then some people don't have the you know, and so you can use assistance. And then some people don't have the ankle mobility for that. So you can start you can start with the heel up, like a very like part of physiotherapy almost is like, like by elevating the heel on a squat, you actually end up being able to rehabilitate the patellar tendons and stuff. So it's funny, this ATG split squat can regret, you know, I don't have the ankle mobility for

squats. That's okay. I don't have the you know, the mobility for squats. That's okay. I don't have the, you know, the hips for squats. That's okay. I don't have the strength for squats. That's okay. So we use the ATG split squat. And then we find that it's people get into squats and they feel great, you know, so I've even helped Olympic weightlifters and stuff who maybe have some injury or this or that. And then they can kind of use that as the funnel. But it doesn't mean that's, that's not your Olympic weightlift. That's an underlying exercise. That's not your dunk in basketball. It's an underlying exercise, you then have to go do the thing. But it's pretty cool that it gives you a pain free, scalable tool, that over time, you can drive up your strength. And

every rep you do, you're improving your hip flex flexor length lengthening a muscle is not as simple as just hiring someone to stretch you one time like it's about putting in a signal and it's it's putting that little quarter in the bank and then your body's like oh you want me to be a little like it's it's different than just holding a light stretch when you actually kind of load under so those hip flexors lengthen out also if you look when you catch under an olympic lift compared to when you do an Astrograph style split squat, the angle's very diagonal. So you actually get to like sit on that front ankle mobility. So you also have very well-respected coaches

doing sort of loaded ankle mobility drills. And this accomplishes that exact same physics. So I don't have to do mobility drills, but I can do the splits cold anytime. You want to see it? I've seen it so many times on your Instagram. I totally believe you. Okay.

I actually have seen you go, you go, oh, I'm losing it right now the the quad stretch strength one where you lean all the way back touch your head to the ground then you get up jump into a squat or into a split i'm like that dude's a gangster i appreciate that so so if we go from a double-legged squat to a to an astrograph style split, but then underlying that would actually be doing like a reverse step up where you're, you're just isolating what you can do knee over toe without even going all the way down because going all the way down, depending on like, you know, the internal

health you've got for some people that can be painful. So someone might start assisted on their ass to grass split squat. So they're just going, you know, there is really light amount of pressure, you know what I mean? While also working that reverse step up. So it gives another angle to be driving up that knee over toe strength. So it's really like the better you get on a reverse step up, like the more pain free strength you have on a reverse step up, then the easier the ATG split squat gets easier ATG split squat gets the easier the squat gets. So that's the system in a nutshell. But the backward sledding is really just mimic if you look at a backward sled, the way I'm talking about, I'm not talking about going to an amount of weight that you have to kind of sit back, you can actually look from a side angle,

and your knee should be over your toes on every step. Like if you just stand there and you take a step back, your knee is over your toes. So in elderly, this was proven to be an effective screening process for falling alone was just having elderly people walk backwards. It's really just like seeing how strong they are with their knees over toes. So again, it's like, well, what if you just really treat that as a strength exercise? The sled can really help with that blood flow. Even if you don't have a sled, just 10 minutes, what if you just really treat that as a strength exercise? The sled can really help with that blood flow. Even if you don't have a sled, just 10 minutes, like, you know, walking or even picking up the pace backwards. It just helps like a little WD 40 to then get into the reverse step up to then get into

the asterisk split squat to then get into the asterisk squat. So that's, that's the system in a nutshell, reversese sled to reverse step up to astrograph. Split squat to astrograph squat. And then just other details assist. Like with the tibialis, if you have super bad knees for a long time, it really helps get a ton of blood flow in there. And your tibialis strength is probably shot because the tibialis doesn't really get loaded

unless you're like jumping or like slamming it you know like i said it handles a ton of force so now if you're like not if you're not slamming force through your knees you're probably not loading your tibialis much so it just kind of reduces some of that pressure gets the blood flow started starts mobilizing that ankle we all you know ankle mobility is this huge subject but everyone's beating it to death on the back of the ankle. Like what about the front of the ankle? Like what about, imagine if a bodybuilder never trained his bicep one time and only his tricep yet tens of millions of people are doing this to their ankle. They're not strength training the front side of the ankle. So most people running into that impingement, it's not for lack

of trying. It's actually because they're just not working the other side of the ankle. That needs to loosen out. And that front side can hold scar tissue for good reason. Like, bro, I'm super weak here. I need to keep my scar tissue to like hold stiff there. You know, like so that the tibialis would be an example of you don't even have to put pressure on the knee yet. And you can be putting a little bit of of money in the bank toward that process so that's a pretty good explanation of it

you would also then be need to be addressing the hamstring throughout that process you know the hamstring is much better developed in modern training than the than the anterior stuff that i just described you know all that all that knee over toe stuff. But even with the hamstring, it can be hard to know like, you know, okay, do I just go do some leg curls? Like, do I do some RDLs? Like, it can get a bit more detailed. And as brutal as it is, that Nordic we usually think of like, as something that like, oh, that just a few freaks can do. It's really funny when you look at it because what made me get onto the Nordic, I don't know if you guys remember a hockey player named Marty St. Louis

of the Tampa Bay Lightning. 100%. I actually want to talk to you about hockey a lot. Oh, sweet. He was undrafted. He actually got cut out of the NHL. No one would have expected him to come back and be a Stanley Cup champ, MVP. He actually got cut out of the NHL. So no one would have expected him to come back and be a Stanley cup champ MVP. He was leading the average. Yeah. And what's really

cool is he was leading the league in scoring when he was 35. So I came across a video of him doing Nordics with a very measurable form. It also hasn't been something that measurable, like what's a good Nordic what's not. so his was the first I came across that is very strict when it comes to coming out of the bottom you're laying flat your glute contracts first and now that loads the hamstring it's almost like the way up is like in the Olympic weightlifting family like it's like how how can you turn it on yeah and then on the way down his coach was just looking at his thigh does his thigh get below 45 degrees you're loading you know you're loading the crap out of things by doing that and what's funny is the coach in the article

said that he was the only guy out of 25 nhl players in his gym who could do it and so here i am and i'm like i'm one of those other 24 i'm worse than those other 24 guys you know what i mean yeah like what the fuck like i like he's 35 leading the league in scoring that's a pretty bulletproof guy and you remember his quads were nasty well what about his fucking hamstrings they were just as nasty that's really where that there's not like some shortcut you know like it's not about just quad so i'm looking at that going what about the other 24 fucking guys what about me how the hell do there? Funny enough, it's kind of as simple as taking one of those Nordic benches and just elevating it. And we can actually all do, we can actually all do what Marty St. Louis could do

at some level by elevating. So now we're talking that Nordic I treat, it's the same reason as like, why not only do lat pulldown? Why do a chin up? Like why? Why not just do lat pulldown? Why do a chin-up? Like, why? Why not just do lat pulldown? It doesn't mean that a leg curl machine is bad. There's just some different factors when you actually have to like handle your own body weight. I think it forces things a little bit more than if you only use a machine. Also, if we look at the ACL and if we look at where people are injuring it, if you look at the Nordic compared to a leg curl machine, they're almost opposites in terms of the strength curve, meaning the Nordic's not tough at the hardest part. Like, tryic compared to a leg curl machine they're almost opposites in terms of the strength curve meaning the nordic is not tough at the hardest part like try your max on a leg curl and try to hold it at the at the top very hard right like that's where it gets toughest but when you're laying there in the starting position and your leg is straight there's like no force yeah

but on a nordic the closer you get to straight the tougher that shit is yeah so it's really really sport specific in terms of protecting that acl you even yeah you even saying that of like the leg curl looks like a nordic if you've ever done them they're not even remotely close in difficulty right they're very opposite ends like i thought like oh i have strong hamstrings because i can do the leg curl and then it's like let me try anortic yeah right like i'm gonna break my nose yeah um for a half yeah go ahead sorry well i was just saying that you know i i described the system that it goes in reverse order from reverse sled to reverse step up to atg split squat to ATG squat. Yes, that is directly hitting that knee over toe. Every one of those exercises is just knee over toe exercises. The tibialis helps with getting

into that and keeps us balanced and helps with that ankle mobility. Then the Nordic helps with the strength on the backside. Not to mention that Nordic really, if you look at where the force is, it's very different than an RDL. The force on a Nordic is right behind your knee. And so, so many people are like, oh, that hurts the tendons of my knee or whatever. Bingo. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, like you're weak behind your knee. And then even though it doesn't look like a big muscle behind your knee and stuff like that hypertrophy behind the knee still matters. Like that's creating your cushion. You know what I mean mean like when you go into the bot so if you're kind of like the tibialis for the ankle if you're not doing anything to actually load right behind your knee and now you're trying

to go into full bending stuff so as soon as we start trying to add load at all in a full knee bend in my system we have to be doing nordic and then the nordic just kind of stays in like forever in my system once we start adding load to full bend. When you start to look at athletes that are in boots, like I played hockey for 16 years. And for the high school portion of that, we're talking in a boot tied up with no mobility for two hours a day it's a recipe for disaster i consider myself to have pretty good ankles considering but anytime i would ever get into some high volume

squat cycles or like real like strength building phases of training, the very first thing that I would notice is I'd climb a stair and your knee gives out or you're kind of doing that, like, you take the step, but you got to make sure your other foot's coming because you know, the pain's coming. Like, I always felt like I had decent knees and decent strength, but you can't overcome the fact you spend two hours in a tied up boot. And, you know, it's not like skiers and, you know, people that spend time in the equipment that stabilizes that joint, you lose all, even more of a broad example, is the number of people that go to the athletic trainer

before soccer practice and get their ankles taped. Yeah. And then in basketball, we do that. We start taping. Because of ankle sprains and shin splints i was taping up that whole area as well so it wasn't as extreme i think it's like as for you but it was still similar train of thought and so if we look at if we look at training and again the whole purpose is that it's not only knees over toes it's just one piece of

exercise knees behind toes is how you hit the the posterior chain and so if your ankle like if you're doing an RDL and you're just cheating the crap out of it and like using your quads your hand you're probably not really going to be hitting your posterior chain that hard your hamstrings you know that's just it's just one example of exercise but I love like that's I love that exercise and I use that very strictly like I'm trying to work my knee behind my ankle to hit my posterior chain. So to the degree that you're limited the other way, yeah, your squats turn into more back pressure. Your knees start kind of creeping back.

So to the degree that ankle is limited, when you squat, it's not going to really build up your knees the way it should you know like it's more pressure on the knee and less of the muscles like smoothly handling it if you're if that ankle is limited yeah the uh and also when i i would notice like they're going back and forth they're not they're not right? The right one's tighter than the left, which leads to hip shifts and all this crazy stuff. What I notice you doing a lot of is when you're on the slant board, instead of using it the way you would in like a sissy squat

to get your knees over your toes, but you're doing like posterior chain development with like RDLs with your toes pointed up. During that, I've never done that. I'm almost like terrified to be doing an RDL with my knees that far back and my toes and my ankles flexed in that position. Can you explain kind of what's going on there and how that minimized the amount of fear that I have

because I feel like I'm just going to blow my hamstrings out by doing that. Do you have a slant board? My neighbor has made one, but I haven't gotten over. I usually just stack weights and do the – Send me your address when we're done. I'll send you some stuff, okay? I'll send both of you guys like tib bar, slant board, some of that shit, okay? Awesome. I'd love that.

So the way we start this on the slant board is actually with a completely straight leg and just trying to reach down and touch your toes. So whether you call that a hamstring stretch or a pike or a Jefferson curl, really what we're talking about there is actually having the leg completely straight. And that's not something that we load heavy. We only do that up to 25% of body weight, which seems to give just a little extra to kind of pull us into it. And so we do, we do that and really build up the resilience. Most of us are calves. Our upper calf is so tight that then behind the knee just stays tight and kind of restricts our ability to really get into our hamstrings because behind the knee is really tight, particularly for people who've had knee surgeries, it can stay like really tight

behind the knee. And so you wouldn't think of a completely straight leg as an area of strength, but it actually like it is an area of strength. And a lot of people have gotten really weak and tender behind their knees. So this is a key part of the process for us is just gradually building strength with a completely straight leg with standing on a slant board to really just open up that whole calf and backside of it. So it's a it's a light. It's a light exercise. So that's really so you would start like, when you get your slant board, just do three sets of 10 toe touches. You know, like just try to stand on the slant board

and then just reach down and touch your toes. And you'll probably notice the first thing is it's like really tight behind your knees. So just go to what's comfortable, go to what's comfortable, go. And then just over time, this has unlocked like the hamstring flexibility and that pain-free feeling behind the knee for just a lot of people so it's it's just again that's kind of one of those tools that if you don't have it there's just a little more chance of those upper calves staying too tight of it being painful behind the knee when you do go to a full bend um so it's it really helps open that

stuff up and then when you go into stuff like romanian deadlifts and things like that all of a sudden it's it's a lot easier and we also do when we start the romanian delos we also start single-legged back extensions not because a double-legged back extension is bad but it's a good opportunity single leg already else that like this is phenomenal but it's kind of hard to like fully exert because of the balance and stuff. And so that's not really my like, that's awesome. That's someone else can definitely master balance. My thing is just trying to like, focus on that on that strength. So then we start doing sync. So when you're in a single leg back extension, again, your leg is really straight. So it's, it's underrated. If you do single leg

back extensions, not just as some body weight drill but actually pushing your strength and actually when you going when you go to the top not just swinging and stopping but actually like holding that position at the top each rep to ensure like like that's all i'm talking about is like how much weight can you actually hold completely straight that's a lot of pressure behind the knee as well. So in one, we prep with the slant board Jefferson curl. Then we do a single leg back extension and a Romanian deadlift. And while we're prepping with that slant board Jefferson curl,

we're working a seated good morning, which isn't- That was going to be my next question on scaling that to the good morning, which is seated for you. You guys don't do a ton of them standing. I use standing and i can just kind of explain why so yeah when you when you do a seated good morning if you start that with dumbbells is really safe because like the the leverage is close to you you can just kind of feel those

adductors and glutes stretching out and we're just improving like what angle can we reach without having to round our back so on a je Jefferson curl, like we want some decent strength. Like we want to feel good and strong with a rounded position, lighter loads. While in the same program, working on that seated good morning, opening up that area with the dumbbell, ridiculously safe. And once you're getting good mobility and stuff, then we go to a bar. But we don't just start with the bar because usually it's just like usually it just looks like a turtle if someone just starts with the bar and their adductors and glutes are super tight but like what exercise do we have to really like put that lengthening concept to the glutes themselves like kind of hard to achieve

you know and so with the with the seated good morning if you look at it what exercise brings your torso and your thigh that close together okay no i love good mornings yeah they're phenomenal yeah so we treat the seated good morning the way a lot of different asian olympic weightlifting teams they get their guys that they can hold posture and lower their torso fully to the bench without rounding the back and that's so that's exactly what we do. So here I am a, you know, a skinny, stiff basketball player looking like, like a successful Asian Olympic weightlifter and is seated. Good morning. Amazing. And in a defensive, I get so many steals now because who can reach farther? The one who's like this, like I'm able to bring my body into like more of a pancake position, be strong there without stressing, without having to stress my back because I'm still engaged. So that kind of preps the back while the slant board

Jefferson curl preps behind the knee to then go into the Romanian deadlifts and stuff like that. Then why Romanian deadlift first? Kind of the same concept because you're holding the weight. So like if you get into difficulty, you can just put it down. But putting someone new just into a standing good morning, that's not really like a position you want to fail in. So we use the Romanian deadlift. And like that's my system. And then I'm always having fun like on my side.

I always have like optional kind of athlete. Like I have a simple example. It's like in my program that I'm on right now, I do standing good mornings. And the reason is because I've already prepped with those seated good mornings and those Romanian deadlifts with the Jefferson curls. So like I can quite literally, I'll have to make a post on this today. Cause I think a lot of people don't realize this. I can fail on a standing good morning and literally go like that and just come back up. You see what I mean? So like if I literally fail on a standing good morning and literally go like that and just come back up. You see what I mean?

So like if I literally fail on a standing good morning, I'm still safe. Like I'm talking, my head is like down between my legs and then I explode back up out of it. It doesn't mean I'm pushing to that point because I prepped. So I know my body, but that's the why is that the Romanian Delft is just much easier. It's just much easier if you get into difficulty. Someone more seasoned, then the standing one is great because you can be doing a lot of volume on other stuff and you can still trash your posterior chain without having to hold on to a really heavy bar like Romanian Delft. So Romanian Delft when it's like a primary focus

and then I use standing good morning with the same coaching cues as the romanian deadlift when it's when you're using it to kind of stay in balance so when i when i do start driving up like i'm doing a program where i get to squat three days a week and so i use the standing good morning to make sure i'm keeping some hamstring lengthening there but i don't want to fucking rdl i'm already squat like my central nervous system's tired so the standing good morning allows me to use half the weight and still still get that lengthening on the hamstring so hopefully that makes sense kind of like why i use it i also find that closing that gap is super important like you can do an rdl and it's going to be relatively

close to what your deadlift is like that that position is already ingrained in so many people and that controlled descent to keeping your knees back until the bar passes your knees. Like we've all been there hundreds of times, maybe thousands of times over the course of your training career. Been there. I understand what an RDL is. It's phenomenal.

However, when I put a bar on my back and I go to do a good morning and 135 feels like a million pounds, there's a gigantic gap in that. And I've never gone above really 165 pounds on a good morning because I don't really trust that position as much as I do an RDL. And where the bars position, the levers and that whole system, it, it, I'm not there. And it was a massive gap that I've started to close, but I still feel this good mornings have become like multiple times a week, anywhere from 90 pounds for like 20 reps, just to accumulate volume to let's see if we can like get a set of eight that's that's heavier in that 165 range but the fact that i could probably do 315 on an rdl very simple with for for many reps and then the good morning is so light in comparison it's a significantly more difficult exercise as you

start to develop that training age yeah i agree the agree. The RDL, phenomenal to lay the base, the standing good morning probably goes more into that category, slightly more of like bulletproofing you, you know, and it just based on those leverages, like the way it's pulling. I would try, so what I do is I squat Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and then Tuesday, I do seated good morning and Thursday, I do standing good morning. And I try to keep those numbers exactly balanced. And on both of those Tuesday, Thursday sessions, I do this ass to grass split squat. And so I try to keep the ass to grass split squat and the seated good morning evenly balanced. And then I keep the ass to grass split squat and the standing good morning evenly balanced.

So I try to keep those numbers. So I think if you, I think if you went in one of those sessions working the seated one, I think that each new time you did the standing you might be like oh wow that's a little fucking easier because a little more of that like glute length i feel like it can just kind of like unlock it a little bit you know how when it's tight it can it can feel weak and then like by the end of a standing good morning session you can almost like like if you went back to 95 pounds it would feel like really light and like good yeah Yeah. So we're kind of always up against life, just kind of pulling us back into like a tightened position.

So I think, I think just adding that slightly different, uh, you know, leverage because the, the bottom of a, of a standing good morning, you're gonna be like that. But the bottom of a good morning, you're, you're like that, you know? Yeah. So I think if you, I think if you went one of one i think it might start feeling a little bit easier on the stand yeah um i went out to the to the turf the other day and ran wind sprints almost to like prepare to talk to you about sprinting because when we're in the gym we do so many things slow and controlled to hit specific muscle groups but when you go play you better be ready for speed

and power like we we play at a different speed than what we train at for for the most part and yeah how do you transition something that is in a controlled environment to something that is we hope it's controlled and it is controlled in a way but sprinting is is about it's giddy up and go like we're gonna see how fast we can get to a way, but sprinting is about, it's giddy up and go. Like we're going to see how fast we can get to a specific point. And you have to have a different set of skills to get there. So how do you transition from slow and controlled in the gym to giddy up and go time to perform? I can, I could geek out and talk with you guys for the rest of the day.

So when it comes to the athletic stuff, over the years, I could geek out and talk with you guys for the rest of the day. Um, so when it comes to the athletic stuff over the years, I've adopted, like, I only use a few athletic drills. I can tell you exactly what I do and I do them in addition to whatever program I'm on. So like whatever program I'm on, on Mondays, I sprint. And the idea with this, of course, anyone could sprint anywhere. Like you went to turf. Now, if you have turf, that's like a pretty nice surface. Barefoot, barefoot. I want the whole world to know barefoot sprinting. Get after it. Yep. If anyone has seen me sprint in the last few years, you either see me on an air runner or barefoot somewhere. I actually find that if you wear a shoe that's not built for like grass or something like that, and you're wearing a shoe and now one of those shoes slips while you're running, it's like a recipe for pulling like a hamstring or a rectus

femoris because when one slips, now you're like, you're screwed. So I think the most natural you can do, it would actually be wearing like a track spike, like on a track or barefoot or, and I just have an, I have an air runner. Why? It's $3,000 on the dot. I think it's free shipping. Yeah. That's the same as a regular treadmill costs. It almost like encourages your running form. And I'm a super ego lifter. And it shows me like, as you're running, you're looking at your speed. So I've helped tons of really genetically slow guys get fast and i actually got them to stop their other sprinting and start using an air runner and it's just like get on it get that fucker as fast as you can and they learn about themselves so many of us who are slow and

especially who have had a lot of injuries we don't realize our running form is designed to make sure we don't go too fast like yeah i yeah, I don't want to go. Yeah. That's specifically, once you start to get tired, you start to lean back because your body doesn't want to push the issue. Yeah. It totally, you start feeling like you're running like Michael Johnson, but not really actually like him. But as you start to, when you notice that position, it's like, it's almost like you put up a sail

yeah and you got to like lean into it and you feel you feel the speed kick in again yeah and with an air runner you just hop off you don't have to do the decelerating so in so so mondays i go five minutes backward on a sled first i already worked worked my deceleration. So I'm not going to be, nothing's out of balance now when I get to sprint. Then I do my sprints. And then when I finish my sprints, and I just do five sprints, and I'm just trying to see how fast can I get that fucking thing. And the idea is that the fifth one is like, is like literally what is your max velocity? And that's the thing. Most slow guys are never truly expressing their max velocity. Not just in their sport. It's often so many drills and agility drills.

Whereas like the track guys are like really opening up. You know what I mean? Like you don't hit that. When you go to like true top speed, you ever do that and you're like crazy sore the next day? How about this? I'm going to send you a video when we get off this of me racing Johan Blake. Yeah, I sprinted against Johan in a 60 meter dash and we have it in slow motion. So you can watch a normal human versus the best in the world in slow motion and watch the exact,

it's the freakiest thing you've ever seen in your life watching normal athletic human versus fastest man in the world human. And it looks like a deer getting chased by a lion that has no chance. Like I know what it sounds like right before the cheetah eats the antelope because it's tap, tap, tap, tap, dead. I know that because Johan chased me down in a way that was the most freaky thing you've ever seen in your life. Yep. I can't wait to see that. But when he sprints, by running with the right form and stuff, he's signaling to his body, like, get a little faster. But so many of us, like one of my famous things before the knee surgeries,

I ran a six-second 40-yard dash my sophomore year. I broke the school 40-yard dash record in slowness, not in speed. So it's not really awesome. But so, so I was ridiculously slow. And looking back, like I was never something as simple as that as getting on an air runner once a week, and just actually trying to run my fat. And when you're looking at your speed, you start to notice, oh shit, I'm like not even really using my hamstrings when I run. That makes it go faster. Or that you, like you start to learn by, by looking at it and measuring it. And so, so I do that on Monday. So I go backwards slide five minutes, then five sprints. And then I do 10 jumps each leg so i set up a hurdle the hurdle is just for fun

it gives something it's like 10 bucks so i'm a huge believer in jump balance people often talk about jumps they don't realize that so many athletes jump higher off one leg than the other huge factor in terms of reducing injury risk in sports and what's the number one jumping drill i've done to make this jump transformation? It's just practicing jumping off either leg. Even in long jumpers, this proved to give 70% more jump gain. They took the traditional group. You have your jump leg.

Oh, I jump off this leg. They had another group. They divided up the long jumpers and said, we're going to have you jump off both legs. At the end of the study, they jumped for every one inch the regular group gain 1.7 inches the group gain that was jumping off either leg so we used to have a standard for that where we were training athletes that were involved in field sports football basketball anybody who's doing a lot of running sprinting agility type stuff we had them do a standing single leg triple jump on each leg and and they the numbers had to be within 90 of each other that way there wasn't a big discrepancy and that that was very telling for a lot of people on where we needed to to help

train them for uh injury prevention that's huge yeah and so i do like a really like dummy version of that which is i just set up one hurdle like it's easier for people to just like run up and be like jump off my left leg boom you know what i mean and then be like, jump off my left leg, boom. You know what I mean? And then you walk back, jump off my right leg, boom. And then, and then we just try to get to half our body height on the hurdle, which isn't like, well, that's not that much or whatever, but being able to do it powerfully. And then when people send me their form videos, I'm really looking at their hips. So on the hurdle, I can see their McCann. I don't want it being one of these things with the hurdle where you're like, so there's no no like, there's no like turning to the side. The hurdle is just

there for fun. You know what I mean? But if people then use an object or they're trying, then they lose so much attention on that. They don't really focus on the jump. So like trying to make a non, like, you know, trying to make people do all that. So, so by having the hurdle, it just allows people to really concentrate that energy on putting that power. So that, so that's, that's three of the drills I do for like athletic, you know, like bridging the gap between strength work and field is Mondays. And I can't wait for every Monday. It's so simple, but I can't wait for those sprints and jump balance. And then on Wednesday I do Joe DeFranco style, heavy ass sled drive, which is, it is slow, but you're working up to like how much weight can you push slowly on the sled.

Awesome mobilizer for the ankle. It's like a universal exercise. I've coached elderly through this, kids through it. I literally stand on one side of the sled for elderly. And then imagine what a win it is for them when they're like, you know, Nana, I didn't even help you on that set. You know what I mean? Like, so it's such a universal strength exercise. And, but if you, if you've ever done it and that sled five, six, 700 pounds, what happens to start to move it? You have to start to get that crazy shin angle. You know what I mean? So it starts building

some of that knees over toes trust, you know? Yeah. So that's, so that I do on Wednesdays because in my system, we do that ATG split squat on Wednesdays. So that's actually like a, it's just a great mobilizer for athletes and it, and it's working that shin angle. So there's already four of the athletic drills. do. Backward sled, max velocity sprint, jump balance, heavy ass sled drive. And then on Fridays, I sprint backwards, actually. So on Fridays, I sprint backwards, which we think, oh, we go backwards and stuff. But how often, if ever, do we actually like sprint at max velocity backwards? Not that often, if ever. And so it's an interesting drill. Again, it's not magical, but it's a really nice drill

to actually open up to max velocity. Of course, doing any of these things has an injury risk, but sports has a super high injury risk. So if we do all this stuff in preparation, gradually, only once a week, then we kind of bulletproof these abilities. Like you're a lot less likely to get hurt sprinting in a game or in preseason. If you prepare like this, then by just getting strong and not sprinting or not doing the jump down. And then after, after the backward sprints, I do depth jumps and to do the depth jumps, I keep it, I use a simple regulation, which is I use that hurdle. And so I'm not dropping from a height unless I can easily

rebound back to that same height. And obviously that doesn't mean, that doesn't mean like I'm hopping over it stiff legged. It just provides a bit of a measurable, like you're still allowed to jump and bend your knees over the hurdle. But it's like, shit, if you're dropping from something and you couldn't at least hop back onto something of that same height you're probably dropping from something too high you know it's it's it's that simple so i do 20 reps of depth jumps there you go that's my exact yeah those are my those are the six athletic drills i do that's it and i do i do each one only once a week and i do all i do all six of those each week and then they provide a nice warm-up then to get into the leg sessions as well yeah i did a bunch

of actually the backwards sprints like all out earlier this week as well just because you're gonna end up talking about yeah i love this stuff's awesome i this is like when i geek out on like learning new new stuff from people that I, uh, I think are doing really cool things. Um, if you are progressing into backwards sprinting, we probably should not start there because it's one of those moves where like, if you think that putting your knees over your toes may cause an injury going backwards at full speed is it's like the entire catch position when your foot hits the ground boom boom it's it's like a hundred percent directly into your knee if you don't have safe

healthy strong knees um so how do people progress to being able to get to adding the speed element to that knowing there's going to be a lot of force hitting the ground each time. Yeah, so with all six of these drills, if you really break down each one, it does scale to any level. You could just walk backwards, right? So you're the one in control of like how, you know, are you doing a one-foot depth jump over a one foot hurdle that could prevent someone who's maybe going to go five, 10 years of life of never landing that that could be

a really good drill for them. But having the same person drop from 36 inches and they might get hurt. You know what I mean? Yeah. So even with the, even with the hurdle jumping drill, if you set it low enough, you can literally just walk over the hurdle. So, so with the backward sprinting, it scales down to backward walking, but all those six drills I described are completely optional. What I'm really encouraging people and trying to

get them to is being able to do all the exercise, all the strength exercises I described without pain with these different strengths and stuff. And we find that, yeah, when you can then do those ass to grass split squats, and it's not painful and all these different things, you go out and sprint backward and you feel like you're on steroids, you know, like you, you, you, it's almost like you can't hurt yourself if you try so that the physics of the matter in terms of the strength. And I think subtly throughout that process, I think our tendons are really healing and developing as well. Like, like the tendons have anabolic qualities too.

And so let's say we're just like on a leg press or something and like really just pumping the muscles, but like not really loading the tendons. Like you could theoretically develop your muscles a lot more than your tendons, you know? So this style of training does implicate, there's a lot more than your tendons, you know, this style of training does implicate there's a lot of tendon development going on. If we look at like the physiotherapy research of being on a slant board and doing this stuff, like you're actually loading and developing your tendons too. So that's, that's the main side of it is like, if someone plays

basketball, I just have to do my system and play basketball. Like that's it. But now if someone plays basketball, I just have them do my system and play basketball. Like that's it. But now if someone maybe plays football and now they actually have an off season where they're not playing football, you know, that's when those six athletic drills would become pretty important. But it's also like, yeah, like you do your backward sprints on Friday. Like it's up to you to monitor how hard you go. And then you recover, like you come back stronger. Like notice how boring each one of these six drills is. They're just really simple compared to like, you're going to do a speed ladder here, jump onto this. You see like all these like crazy things people are trying to put together. Whereas mine, I'm just trying to give that stimulus, come back strong, don't overtrain. Do it. Each drill is only once a week.

And actually before the backward sprints, we actually train the exact opposites first. So as weird as that sounds, what we do is we actually pump up our tibialis. We pump up behind the knee and the hamstring. And we actually pump up our hip flexors. So then when we start the backward sprints, we actually have a ton of blood flow on each side of the joints and stuff. So that's actually how the Friday session flows. We do triple flexion, ankle flexion, knee flexion, hip flexion, three sets of 15 to

20 reps. So we're actually like pretty pumped around our joints. Then we do the backward sprints and we do 10 sprints, and we start at super low effort. The idea is only that we're going all out on that 10th rep. And that's it. Like then, you know, once a week, that's it. You come back a little bit more bulletproof. Yeah.

And are you talking – I think you posted – maybe it was last week, maybe a couple weeks ago. It's all kind of the same but the uh on that 10th rep you're talking about uh you're on the slant board and talking about doing a lot of like knee it kind of just looked like pulsing like quarter squats on the slant board is that what you're referring to of the all out on the 10 i was actually talking about the backward sprinting oh gotcha sorry about that Sorry about that. Uh, but that was sprinting. We do 10 sets all out the, the rhythm squat. Um, yeah, many coaches the 50 rep rhythm squat, many coaches have used a 50 rep rhythm squat. So everything I do, I'm, again, I'm trying to look at it and just be like, okay, how can I maximize this quality? So

when I do the rhythm squat and this is, I call this like my athlete style squat. So like most, you know, a coach could say to me like, improve your squat, you'll jump higher. Yeah, it's not necessarily that simple though, right? So the squat, when I told you that the program I'm on right now, that I squat three days a week, the squat that I do, my heels are elevated on a slant board so really you can't avoid those legs and knees and tendons and then I put bands on the bar because I find that for most guys who naturally have knee issues and stuff if we just have a squat and we just go down the top and the bottom feels so different that it can be like oh man that feels

weird at the bottom but if we do all our warm-up sets with like some strong bands even if we're going to work up to the same bar weight but just adding the bands it kind of prepares our bodies for what's to come you know because we're stronger at the top than the bottom so we work our way up as many sets as needed to a set of five reps that we're happy with in a banded heel elevated toes on the floor, full ass to grass squat. And even within that squat, within that set of five reps, the first rep has to be very slow on the way down. So you'll see some athletes, they drop fast because they can't really fight it down. Other athletes couldn't drop fast and they have to go really slow.

We do both in the same set. You don't often see this. The tempo changes on each of the five reps. You're trying to start with full control down without the weight breaking you because I don't want you trying to handle a weight that you can't control. Then the second rep, try to drop a little faster. By the fifth rep, you're actually trying to drop fast little faster by the fifth rep you're trying to like you're actually trying to drop fast and then have to actually decelerate and catch those last few

inches it's actually like a different velocity and when you finish that five reps if that's the set you're happy with right then and there right then and there you pump out 50 knees over toes rhythm squats the burn you like you you probably have an out-of-body experience, which is a good side effect of it. But what you're doing there is now you're pouring that energy on that strength, knees over toes. You're working on your elasticity. Now you could go very slowly, and that 50 reps would be brutal

because it would take a long time. Or you could go fast, which is actually tougher. Like it's tougher to be getting into that rhythm squat fast. The set's done quicker, but it's more load. So it's still kind of scales to anyone. But the idea is that we are much stronger at extension. So if we're only working the full band and we're not working that top extension, we're leaving a lot on the table for athleticism.

But most athletes are actually much stronger at extension and super weak at the bottom. It would really vary by sport. Like certain Olympic lifters have done it and they're crazy strong in the bottom. And then they find a ton of gain by actually really overloading that top position. But then with like most basketball players,

the majority of their gain would come from actually just getting stronger, going all the way down with the heels up on that, on that slant board. And then that, and then they would actually have no problem rocking 50 reps with whatever their five rep maximum is. So it's really, it's kind of like a, it's kind of like a test within it. Are you stronger, but slower, or are you faster, but weaker? So we find that we want those numbers balanced what you can do five reps all the way down you should then be able to rock out 50 quarter reps right there plus it adds conditioning component and so people get so lost in athleticism of like oh my god that's not fast

twitch anymore like all right fucking do it for 12 weeks three times a week and see how fucking high you jump at the end you know what i mean yeah like you don't have michael jordan's vmos with veins popping out you might get them if you actually tried this and stopped doing french contrast training only because you're afraid to do anything that's that's slow quote unquote slow i'm just saying like there's there's so many pieces of the puzzle that you can't just only like think like, oh, I can only train. Like the least athletic guys I've ever seen are the most obsessed with like avoiding anything, quote unquote, slow twitch. You know what I mean? I was going to ask you about your opinions on French contrast training. As you were doing this, I was like, I wonder what he thinks of French contrast training.

But I don't think French contrast training is bad. I think there's something wrong with someone whose legs for sure legs it was like you were reading my brain i think there's something wrong with someone who drops like a freaking pancake when they try to do a nordic and has and their legs do not look like a pro athlete's legs and they're scared to do anything slow twitch and so they won't try a 50 rep rhythm squat but they will do you know french you see what i'm like yeah you look at the forces i'm putting into my body with these different drills i described and the depth jumps and the this and that i'm putting i'm putting the same forces you know what i mean but my my number one mentor over these last years

has been an australian guy named Keegan Smith. And I think he got this from Charles Poliquin. But most athletes I've seen doing French contrast training are polishing a turd. Like they're turning their 24-inch vertical into a 25-inch vertical. I'm looking at how do I get you to like a 40-inch vertical. So I think French contrast training is probably awesome. Most people that I train have weak knees, and they never really find out what their potential is.

And they're always doing these little things to try to coax an extra inch, but they actually just don't have the physics to be an elite athlete in the first place. You know what I mean? Michael Jordan wasn't doing French contrast training. The dude was dunking from the foul line before he lifted weights but go ahead and look at his proportions i had a cardboard cutout as a kid and i couldn't understand what the fuck these veins were on his legs the dude had vmo veins popping out naturally you know what i mean so now if you think that you're gonna not approach his tendons and his muscles and just like coax out whatever fast twitch you have like

people are missing the point of just how pound for pound strong these pro athletes are have you ever seen lebron roll up his shorts like i'm sorry like you're not gonna be lebron unless you have lebron's frame you know like so a lot goes into that so i'm not i'm not against any method but i just think some people can do things out of sequence and they don't even have the raw they don't even have the raw juice of what it takes to be athletic and then they're trying you know they're trying the most explosive things but just on top of a frame that's that's not you know pro pro athlete legs to begin with. Yeah. How long does it take for someone jumps on your program, they want to increase their vertical, 4, 8, 12 inches,

whatever the number may be, to start to kind of see a lot of these progressions? And it's taken you, obviously, a very long time to get to the level you're at. Like me, I will sometimes get a running start and I will jump so high in the air that in the middle of the air, I have enough time to actually think, wow, I might be flying. And I don't know what I'm going to do with my body while I'm so high in the air. And then I smack the very bottom of the net as hard as I

possibly can. And I realized how embarrassing my vertical is. Could somebody like me actually touch the rim one day? That's how many inches, 12 inches, right? How many inches away do you think you are guessing about 12? Like the bottom the net it's 12 inches away right it would all come down to like how bad you are at this stuff meaning like the worse you are at this stuff i'm describing the more you have to gain you know yeah i've never been really taught how to jump i played ice hockey my whole life yeah and crossfit which is basically olympic weightlifting so you stay on the ground i, where you would probably gain a lot, you'd probably gain a lot in Nordics because Olympic weightlifting is,

is triple extension, but not flexion. So, so the knee flexion, the hip flexion, most people I've trained, like with these really strong squats and they want, they wonder why they don't run fast enough. Like got to pick up that leg too bro so like we have measurable standards for your hip flexors like what if you actually did like a set of hip flexors like how strong can you lift your knee up measurably every time that you worked on your squat or olympic lift we actually do that earn our, we don't work on triple extension unless we do triple flexion first. So our tibialis, our hip flexors and our knee flexion gets really

elite. And that's what you see in the elite athletes. So these freak jumpers, yeah, they actually have strong triple extension too. But when you test them out, they break all your gym records in the, in the fucking ankle flexion and knee flexion and hip flexion so you can try to match your favorite pro athletes triple extension and you're missing a ton because you're not training triple flexion so you would probably be someone who has a foundation that you probably have a lot more potential than your body's realizing right now you know what i mean you would probably you would probably be the kind of person who would gain a lot. And that's one reason that I gained so much in my vertical is because I was training my ass off for many years. You know what I mean? I just couldn't even handle any of my own force and I didn't have the right, I didn't have

any balanced forces. You know what I mean? So it's almost like the worse you are at some of this stuff the more you probably have to gain and you'd probably gain a lot out of the squats on the slam board as annoying as that sounds because it would it would probably get because you described the ankle mobility that's why we squat with the heels up on the slam board so it doesn't matter what your ankle mobility is we don't use our squats for ankle mobility. We remove ankle mobility as the issue. And every heavy squat that we do, our heels are up on a slant board. We don't do any flat footed heavy squats.

Why? Because we did that on Wednesday with the ATG split squat. That's where we're trying to work on that ankle mobility. That's the one that actually gets harder if you look at the way that you're pushing by trying to keep your heel down. So I think you would gain a lot out of that ATG split squat once a week, and then actually having your heels up and honestly squatting. Those numbers can be very different for people. What what do you squat with, you know, with a normal squat first, what do you squat now with your heels up? For some people it's like the same. And those guys are usually freaky elastic dudes. You know what I mean? For some people, for some people,

you elevate those heels and now you bring the patellar tendons in those lower quads in. And then some people squat like half the weight that they do on a regular squat. You know what I mean? Kind of like how you talked about like bridging that gap with the standing good morning you know so there's certainly these movements that are like that are sort of the outer ranges you know and it's kind of like bridging those gaps for someone who has already trained hard in traditional training means they've probably earned their way to having a lot of potential you probably have a lot of potential to run faster to jump higher if you could handle your own powers that you've built up you know yeah um yeah i got a question that i've been i've been pondering since basically the beginning of the

show early in the show you said that the athletic trainers when you're playing basketball uh advise you not to do knee over toe and i feel like my first question to them would be like how would I do that like is that even possible just just to do like a basic like dip and jump and shoot the ball you you have to have your knees go over your toes like it's it seems like it's not an option to say otherwise that's why that's why I'm knees over toes guy because it's that it's that dumb to be telling millions of people don't let your knee do you know how many dms i get of people like i thought you're not supposed to let your knee up like whole do you get tired of that question i i don't i've gotten less like i've gotten less upset as time has gone because people are waking up to it. I think when I started, it was very frustrating.

Now I'm like, bro, I was in your shoes too. Check this out. Now that's just like, wow, this is another person I can help out. You know what I mean? Because their whole life is probably going to change when they realize that training doesn't have to be full of 20,000 rules of what you can't do, you know? So, so yeah, it's, it's wild, but I really grew up. I didn't have a single trainer who let me train my knees over my toes. And a lot of people can relate to this. And I think that's why I got so jacked up because I was, I was training so hard and then playing basketball so hard. And with the genetics, like I went in high school at 92 pounds, I weighed 128 pounds when I hit like my full height now. So like when I was six foot one, I weighed 128 pounds. That's not a lot of muscle tissue and not everyone's skinny is athletic.

Sometimes it goes the double negative when you're skinny and slow. You know, that's how I want to know a recipe of like how to run us, like how to run a six second 40 yard dash, have like no muscle tissue and whatever you have better be like slow twitch and not in any of the athletic areas. So, so you could see, I would just like almost like the worst in any of the athletic areas so so you could see i was just like almost like the worst ramification of like what happens when you take someone in a sport where your knee is over your toes all that like just watch a basketball game in slow motion and it's very eye-opening you know what i mean our knees are over our toes like crazy and so now if i'm only allowed to sit back into stuff sit back back, sit back, sit back.

So now what happens is I go through high school. Now I start actually building some hip power on top of insanely weak knees. That's how you, that's how you, like, if you want a recipe of like how to have a blowout knee injury, don't let your knee over toe and actually train really hard and jack up your hip strength. You know what I mean? Give yourself more power to put in force on top of a knee that wasn't designed to have hip power that great in relation to such a weak knee. So it was almost like a double negative, like what ruined me so bad was how hard I worked at the wrong thing. So it just pulled me vastly out of balance on top of a body that, that definitely designed for sport like basketball, you know, like mate,

like if I would have played baseball, I wouldn't have been the knees over toes guy. Cause I probably would have been halfway decent, bulked up a bit played at a Juco and now I would be like an excellent realtor or something. You know what I mean? After like, after like a very lackluster baseball career you know what i mean a realtor in san diego or california right now you're doing it you're making it happen yeah yeah and and i'd probably be having my knee surgeries now not when i was 18 you said like i probably would now be

having knee surgeries on that smooth track to double knee replacement thinking i can't you know go play baseball like i wanted to in the local league so but because it was like like like my dad had to be insane to encourage me to play basketball with my genetics you know like i thought somehow i felt like i was going to the nba or something you know there's no evidence you know that that i had the genetics to do that. So it was really that combination of not being allowed to train my knees over. I mean, thank God I didn't have a halfway decent trainer. You know what I mean? And honestly, the trainers I went to were probably phenomenal on other areas, probably phenomenal on nutrition and this and that I learned how to put on muscle. And I did,

I looked like a reverse Christmas tree, you know, like my upper body ballooned, but I couldn't figure out how to get into my, I couldn't do every workout was, I can't do that. Like my knee is about to explode. You know what I mean? So I couldn't, like, I couldn't train my lower body correctly. So it was just every factor just pulling me so far out of balance in terms of protected knees. But because of all that work, I probably did have a lot of potential, you know, in my hips and stuff like that. All those plyometrics, I probably had a lot of potential to jump high, but I was just so, you know, it was so impossible for me to express that power without knee pain. So that's now, you know, like you can't really, if you have super

weak hips, you know what I mean? And you don't have any, you know, plyometric training and you don't have genetics for jumping, that's also going to be hard to jump. You're still a sum of all the factors. Knee over toe is not the secret to jumping higher, but it is if you've, if you're weak with your knees over your toes, yeah, you got some potential. I know, I know we're about to wrap one last question before we wrap uh if you're an experienced crossfitter you you have no knee trouble currently you you do plenty of pistols and full depth front squats on a regular basis etc etc uh to what extent do you need to incorporate these unique exercises into your routine i I mean, if someone has no issues, I've trained plenty of people who

have no issues, you know, and we've always seen that they can Olympic lift more weight, they can squat more weight, they can run faster by putting these areas in. So there is still the performance side of it too, you know. learning from one of the shittiest genetic athletes is like a great thing you can do for your athleticism you know versus learning from someone who already had it naturally and didn't have to work for it so there's definitely there's definitely some gems in terms of increasing your your lifts and your numbers but if it's just about you know being-rounded, if that was point number one was like, okay, on the performance side, you definitely like could express some more power

output. Number two would be, I, I haven't yet met a CrossFitter who didn't have some painful issues that were going on, whether it be, whether it be shin splints or this. So I've also found that most CrossFitters do have some pains they need to work on. And then number three would be, yeah, don't, don't take anything I'm saying as like, like, you know, you're still the one in charge of your training. Like you want to learn from a lot of sources. You want to become a master of your body. So if you, you know, want to try certain movements, see which ones you need for you, you know, like the best thing I can do when I when I train someone is sharpen their tools. So they understand how these different things relate,

you know, to what they're going through, so that they are, you know, fully in control of their training. So I know these tools have some potential for everyone for the healthy CrossFitters not having injuries. Yeah, don't go messing with everything you're doing, like, keep doing what you're doing. And maybe as you start to observe, like, oh, wow, I lack some mobility here. Or, oh, you know what, I actually do have some Achilles pain here, or this knee does hurt in the bottom, you know, so then there's maybe, maybe some tools there you could add, you know, but I'm not, I'm not trying to mess with what someone's doing. I'm not trying to mess with any existing systems of fitness. I'm just trying to make sure that people know there are certain solutions for some of these things that we think like, well, I'm just going to have

to foam roll half an hour before every session to get into blood. I think all of us have gotten to points where we just kind of assume that certain pains or inabilities are just like things we're going to have to live with, you know, and maybe some of them are, but a lot of them aren't. And there's tools you could add. So that's really what I'm here for is the people like myself who just didn't know that there was all these tools. And then even beyond that, the majority of the world is not even up to that stage of thinking. The majority of the world is on the stage of thinking, your knee hurts, rest it, ice it, and take anti-inflammatory drugs, which even some studies prove wear down your cartilage so it's like hey i'm running out of cartilage this hurt all right let's let's destroy whatever's left of that cartilage and turn you into like a full-on that's what's occurring you know for most

people it's so so i would still be okay if i didn't alter anyone's fitness and i just helped those people you know what i mean who are like who don't realize there's anything they can do exercise wise in relation to actually improving you know their knees and stuff like that so whatever people are there for and yeah don't don't go you know like whatever you're succeeding with you know don't don't go wildly change that when it's working you know what I mean, don't go wildly change that when it's working. You know what I mean? Like, don't go try to fix something that doesn't need fixing, but maybe, maybe someone who's listening to this might be a little more aware and go, oh, wow. You know, I didn't think about that. I actually do have some pain on this,

or I do have some limitation. I thought I couldn't do a, you know, a squat without, you know, my backgrounding at the bottom or whatever it may be. You know what I mean? You can actually improve tons of different things. Where can people find you? I would say YouTube is best. Knees Over Toes guy. I'm on Instagram too.

Instagram tends to love the really fast kind of content. So I try to like under 30 second, you know, educational videos on Instagram, but on YouTube, go to a library, you can learn everything about anatomy, this, that. So that's my philosophy knowledge. I try to make it free. I don't have like secret, you know, things behind the veil, but then programs and coaching. That's my only, that's my only paid thing is if people want to actually do my programs or have coaching on the movements, it's just one price. We coach your form under 24 hours. That can be very helpful. I got good at this stuff from going to the sources,

getting my form coached, often finding out, oh my God, my form sucks. You know, something about it, it helps to have a coach to coach your form, helps to have a second pair of eyes who's seasoned in that. So like, that's all I do. There's no secrets. All the knowledge is free. Anyone can learn it. And then if people actually want to do it

or learn these movements, yeah, I think it's a smart investment. $49.50 a month with no long-term contract to get your form coached on any and every movement. There you go. Like keeps it simple. That's what the 12 year old me would have needed. If it costs more than 49, 50, 12 year old me probably wouldn't have done it. You know what I mean? If there was a long-term contract, 12 year old me probably wouldn't have done it. And 12 year old me might not have even tried that. So the first month is always half off that way.

Like you could literally just, you could literally just scam me, learn everything, get coached every day for 30 days for 24, 75. You know what? Maybe 12 year old me would have done, you know,

would have paid 24, 75, learned everything like a, you know, like a nut. And then there you go. It keeps it, it keeps my life simple to make it like that.

So that's it. That's, that to make it like that so that's it that's that's how it works beautiful doug larson um ben i really appreciate this dude this has been a great show uh you can find me on instagram at douglas larson um i think one of the things that i get so happy watching your videos one i think that what you're doing is fantastic but dude every time you touch a barbell every every time you do a Nordic, I can tell that you are so stoked on life. I appreciate it.

It makes me happy seeing people training, coaching, doing cool stuff, and just being stoked about everything that they have going on. I appreciate you coming on and hanging out with us, man. I'm Anders Varner at Anders Varner. We are Barbell Shrugged at barbell underscore shrug. Get over to barbell Shrugged.com forward slash diesel dad, where all the busy dads are getting strong, lean, and athletic without sacrificing family, fatherhood,

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