Barbell Shrugged - How to get Eight Perfect Hours of Sleep w/ Matteo Franceschetti, Anders Varner, Doug Larson, and Dr. Andy Galpin Barbell Shrugged #647

Episode Date: June 22, 2022

Matteo is the Co-Founder and CEO of Eight Sleep, the world's leading sleep enhancement company. Named one of the Most Innovative Companies in Consumer Electronics by Fast Company, Eight is redesigning the traditional concept of a mattress, by developing cutting-edge AI and machine learning models to track bio signals during sleep to optimize body recovery and rest.    Prior to Eight, Matteo co-founded and led GIR (acquired in 2014) and Global Investment (acquired 2011), two companies in the renewable energy space. Matteo has been Co-Chair at FWD.us and Mentor at Techstars, Microsoft Bizpark and the NYU Summer Launchpad Program. He is also a Member of the Forbes Technology Council.   Born in Italy and currently living in NYC, Matteo graduated magna cum laude with a Law degree from University of Ferrara. He was a member of the Italian Bar Association while working as a lawyer in the finance practice of Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer and Allen & Overy, both part of the Magic Circle of British's elite law firms.   Connect with our guests:   Matteo Franceschetti   Anders Varner on Instagram   Doug Larson on Instagram   Dr. Andy Galpin on Instagram   Coach Travis Mash on Instagram   Dan Garner on Instagram   ————————————————   Diesel Dad Mentorship Application: https://bit.ly/DDMentorshipApp   Diesel Dad Training Programs: http://barbellshrugged.com/dieseldad   Please Support Our Sponsors   Eight Sleep - Save $150 on the Pod Pro and Pod Pro Cover   Organifi - Save 20% using code: “Shrugged” at organifi.com/shrugged   BiOptimizers Probitotics - Save 10% at bioptimizers.com/shrugged   Garage Gym Equipment and Accessories: https://prxperformance.com/discount/BBS5OFF Save 5% using the coupon code “BBS5OFF”

Shrug family, this week on Barbell Shrug, we have Matteo Franceschetti, the CEO of 8Sleep, which is a sponsor of this podcast. They make this episode possible and also one of the coolest things that I've ever been able to use in my life. If you are unaware of what 8Sleep is, to be honest with you, I don't get the greatest sleep in the world. I've got two kids and I always want to find a way to maximize whatever sleep I am able to get over the last four years. Two kids, you probably understand the drill.

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Welcome to Marvell Shrugged. I'm Anders Warner, Doug Larson, Dr. Andy Galpin. We don't have Travis Mash or Dan Garner on the show today. Dr. Andy Galpin stepping in for both of them. And Matteo Franceschetti. Did I get that right? Yeah, you did. I'm basically Italian at this point. CEO of 8sleep, which I have to tell you, number one thing, when I turned your app on and connected it to the machine, it worked the first time. That is an absolute miracle in 2022. The number of times I buy something and then they try to do the phone and the internet and it doesn't work ever. You nailed it. Welcome to the show, man. I'm really excited to talk to you. We've been on our eight sleep beds here for a couple weeks now and sleeping better than ever.

So we were talking about Formula One and all this stuff. What's your history? Going through your LinkedIn page is relatively impressive. I would call it on the more impressive side of things. How did sleep come about as the way you wanted to change the world? Yeah, when I was a teenager, I was an athlete. So I was a tennis player, plus playing substantially any sport you can think of. So I have always been into recovery and performance.

And just a certain point in my career as an entrepreneur, I started looking at my bed and I say, why am I spending a third of my life on a piece of dumb foam while Elon Musk is taking me to Mars. And I thought maybe I can fix it. And that is how everything started. Yeah. I feel like the temperature of our body is like something that very few people think about when it comes to performance or sleep in general. Like, why did temperature spark your interest? So when I started looking at how you can maximize sleep performance, there are a couple of different environmental factors that can be optimized,

but the big elephant in the room is temperature. And the reason is your body temperature already changes during the night. So when you hear people saying, oh, you should sleep at 68 degrees in your room, that's wrong. And the reason is 68 degrees could be right for one hour or two hours, but not for the whole night.

And so when we started looking at that plus customer discovery where people were saying look i always fight with my partner because uh she or he have a different preference plus i sleep hot whatever you understand that just by regulating temperature and adjusting it based on your biometrics in real time is what can deliver the biggest sleep improvement you ever thought of. And so that is what we built first. Yeah. Give us more context.

For people that don't know anything about who you are or your company or your products or anything, we brought up temperature without any context of how we're actually helping adjust and regulate temperature. So just give the big picture of the kind of products you sell and how they work. Yeah. So we invented a technology that can improve your sleep up to 32 percent is a mattress cover you can install it onto any mattress and it will change the temperature of your body while you're asleep each side of the bed will have a different temperature so if you sleep with a partner each partner can have a different temperature setting. And at the same time, the same time, the cover also tracks all your biometrics. So you will be able to see data about your heart rate, HRV, sleep and respiration, all these without wearing anything or charging

anything. So just go to bed as you did for the rest of your life. But tomorrow, you will wake up more energized because this is left better and you will have all the data by your biometrics you know by the way the fact that it's it can be different temperatures on each side of the bed has been fantastic like me my wife had an issue for for so long we're like when i come to bed i'm like hot and like tearing the covers off of me i'm always too hot and my wife's always freezing and then the morning it's the opposite for some reason we're like in the morning i'm like god i'm so cold i'm pulling all the covers i mean she's kicking all the covers off and being able to like to very precisely regulate the exact temperature we want has been has been magical for both of us it's been really nice my wife was like i told her at first i was like yeah like

like it'll it'll make the bed cooler that way i can fall asleep and she's like i don't want that thing in my in the bedroom i don't i don't need anything i was like no no like you can have it hot on your side warm you know optimum on your side and i can have it optimum on my side she was like oh okay 100 bought in she was all about it and she loves it yeah 50 percent of the couples they they fight it um around temperature because they have different preferences. Yeah. What were you guys tracking when you were actually building out the thing? Because obviously when you get into the app, it's got deep sleep, REMS. How do you track all that?

Yeah. So imagine that the way it works, the technology is almost like a stethoscope. So there are sensors that you don't feel, but they really work like a stethoscope. So there are sensors that you don't feel, but they really work like a stethoscope. So it's based on vibration. And we can track everything about your heart rate. Actually, we are gonna release a new algo in two weeks through a software update.

And our new algo has 99% accuracy compared to a medical grade device, to a medical grade ECG. And in terms of HRV, we are at 93% accuracy compared to a medical grade ECG. Then we pick everything about respiration still through vibrations, so from your chest. And then we infer sleep based on this matrix plus movement. Nice. Can you talk more about the different temperatures throughout the night? in first leap based on this matrix plus movement. Nice. Can you talk more about the different temperatures throughout the night?

So is this something that the technology does for you? Cause most people don't realize that they change temperatures and that they actually want to be at different temperatures. So is that something set by you? Can you manually adjust that? So how do I even figure that out? Yeah, so let's start from the basics.

So your body temperature changes during the night, right? So as soon as you fall asleep, your body temperature will drop. It will go down and stay low. And then two, three, four, five hours before you wake up, the temperature will start rising. And so what we are doing is we are not reinventing the wheel. We just help your body to be more efficient at transitioning from temperature X to Y. Then the key thing is there are two modes.

One is autopilot. So our machine learning and AI adjust the temperature for you to make sure that we keep you comfortable. Plus, we maximize your sleep performance. So there is an intelligence of the device that learns from you and from your biometrics to keep optimizing temperature every single day for the rest of your life. Then if for any reason you don't like that, you can still switch to manual mode like a Tesla, right? You can use autopilot or you can drive it manually. So there's a machine learning aspect to it or whatever you want to call it, where it's just going to identify change. So you want you can just plug it in not touch it and over what how long does it take a

week two weeks a month to kind of figure you out after the first week we start having the first learnings and then it keeps it keeps learning over and over again plus we release new algos that they are just smarter and they use your old data and so everything keeps compounding we don't um we don't have one in my bed unlike these two gentlemen really to the high performers ah that's what it is i got it understood okay um but my wife is asking today she's like i don't it. Like we slept for millions of years, however long as humans, without temperature regulation. Why all of a sudden do we need it now? It's pretty clear when you sleep on one of these things, you feel a lot better, for sure.

Like no one complains. I've never heard anybody sleep on a cooling mattress of any kind and gone, nah, that didn't feel good. I've just never heard that. So like what's different now? Why all of a sudden do we need temper regulation when we didn't need that for presumably very long? Let me start with a provocative answer.

So we used to go from point X to Y with a horse for millions of years. Then today we use a car to move and we use Google maps to find the place is the same thing so i think technology can make our life easier and more convenient at the end of the day if you look at the first principle again our body temperature already changes but sometimes it's slow or sometimes that transition doesn't happen at the right time. And so what technology does is it just helps your body to do what it should be doing in a more efficient

and faster way so you wake up more refreshed. At the end of the day, our data shows that we deliver up to 10% more deep sleep, again, 32% better sleep quality overall for our users. You fall asleep 20% faster and you get 20% less toss and turns. So the why is simple. Like you just get better sleep. Why not?

You have to do nothing. Yeah. The counter argument, right, would be something like, well, you didn't brush your teeth for thousands of years either, but you have to be convinced to brush my teeth anymore and that's going to give me 30 extra years of life right so the sort of naturalistic argument doesn't make much sense there like technology works medicine works yeah like obviously so and again you would not have anyone complain about these things yeah it's fantastic um i'd like to dig into just a little bit of the the actual sleep like what what really are the – everyone on here, do you have kids, Matteo?

Yeah, see. Oh, yeah. You haven't figured out a thing on the app right now to keep my kids quiet so I actually get through a whole night. But when I do have enough sleep or when I do have extended amounts of sleep, the quality of sleep is significantly better. I'd love to talk kind of the differences or in similar areas, like obviously the company is called Eight Sleep. So we need the eight hours that's in there. But getting the deep and REM sleep, the importance of those two. So like many people listening to the show probably have kids and are not sleeping all

the way through the night. But when they actually are sleeping, the importance of getting really quality sleep when you have the time. Yeah, absolutely. And actually, so the whole point of our company and the reason why we are called 8 Sleep is because I believe we can compress 8 Sleep down to probably six or whatever is the exact number. And the reason is, it's similar to what actually your wife was saying, Andy, meaning for thousands of years, we just kept sleeping in the same way, right?

We lie over a piece of something. It was a rock. Now it's a piece of dumb foam. And we pretend to wake up fully refreshed. But technology should help us to recover faster. So what if you could get the same amount of rest in just six hours instead of eight? That is the end goal of what we do. And as you were saying, what really matters is deep sleep and REM. And if you look at the percentages, deep sleep can range anywhere between 15% and 25%,

and REM is usually 20% to 25%, maybe 30%. So that is the part of sleep that matters the most. There is almost 50% of your time asleep in light sleep. That is kind of helpful, but you don't really need all that amount. So that is what could be compressed to make you sleep faster. The bottom line is there is plenty of medical evidence that shows that through thermal regulation, you can fall asleep faster. So just there, you can gain time.

You can get more deep sleep. And that is something we see in our data and potentially also more REM. The reason why it's interesting for REM is this. In REM, REM is when you're dreaming, right? And so your brain deactivates any movement in your body. So while you're in REM, you're not moving at all because you're dreaming and your body wants to make sure that you don't do anything dangerous.

But at the same time, your brain doesn't let you get into REM if it's too hot or too cold because you could potentially die during that period of time. And so being in what is called thermal neutrality is key to achieve more REM. And that is part of our autopilot function. Yeah. On that, would you say that that is the number one change folks make when they sleep in a

cooler environment? It's just an increase in REM relative, or is it REM and deep sleep go up? Or would it be favored toward towards room on that point it's more favorable usually towards deep sleep because for deep you need a colder environment but for rem you actually need this thermal neutrality where it's not hotter it's not cold and so that is why changing the temperature becomes so important and versus just having a constant cold temperature and that's why we uh wake up at three in the morning and kick your foot out the comforter all that stuff right yeah or sometimes at five you feel cold and you look you know for for your blanket to cover yourself again yeah um when i was setting it up i thought it was really

interesting that you recommend people going up to like the hot, hotter settings. Why have the heat piece in there? That was something that I was not really expecting to see that in the wave, it kind of, as you're ramping up, it has like a built in alarm through temperature. So you can set it like I'd love to wake up at 7am. And then it has like an hour. Is there a science behind kind of like the gradual waking up process? Yeah, because it's what your body's already doing, right? Think that at the end of the day, if you go back to our origin, right, our body does the same thing that happens in the night, right? In the night, the temperature drops and something like between 10 p.m. and 2 a.m. is really cold. And then right before the sunrise, it starts getting warmer. Your body does exactly the same thing. It's a U-curve.

And so, again, what we do with our device is we just help you in going through that U-curve of body temperature. Yeah. I'd love to know a lot of the research and the projects that you guys did leading up to this like you have this idea and now all of a sudden you got to get thousands of people to show up to sleep studies and and be a part of like tracking everything going on how um how long did it take from like idea to we've got an actual product that we can we can now go like run sleep studies on and then getting to market so to go go from, let's say, a really idea to a product, a physical product in the hands of a consumer was around 18 months, 18 plus, something like that. The first version of an outdoor device, it always takes a long time and it's really hard.

And then from there, you can iterate. So right now we are able to ship a new hardware product every 12 months, which is pretty fast. Then the fact that you ship an hardware product doesn't mean that you're able to run a clinical study or that you have any sort of decent accuracy. So after the 18

months, it took quite a while to keep fine-tuning our sensors. Because our sensors are different. A lot of wearables are able to just buy certain type of sensors off the shelf right and it's the same sensor for everyone which in the early days is an advantage because it's reliable you buy it you don't have to develop well instead in our case we went through this we had to go through this pain of developing our own sensors because it's something you don't wear. It's something completely different from anyone else.

And so in the beginning, it was a pain because you had to develop it. You had to develop the algos to make sure it was accurate. But now, five years later, finally, we have seen the light at the end of the tunnel. Yeah. I kind of want to shift to elite performers. And we start looking at Navy SEAL populations. These people are sleeping in, call it, while they're going through buds for three, maybe four hours sometimes, like hell week. They're awake for five straight days and they're just getting the crap beat out of them.

They're shipped out in the ocean and told to find their way home in the pitch black. Like how, if sleep is so important, how are people able to go through such rigorous times for, I mean, five days, isn't it? I would go crazy. And still be able to perform at such a high level. What happens in the sleep process that are not in the sleep process, but how are their brains able to handle such high-performing tasks without sleep? And have you done any research on people that kind of just at that elite level? So we did, and there are studies about people at the elite level,

but more on the, I would say, on the sports side. Maybe sales, I think they're really a different level, right? They have tolerance for discomfort and for pain, which is part of what they live and breathe. There is plenty of evidence that at the same time, if you are sleep deprived, the risk of injuries is way higher, right? Particularly for athletes. There is plenty of evidence that obviously sleep is correlated to a lot of health diseases. There is a correlation between sleep and nutrition because if you're sleep deprived, you will very likely crave more junk food or you will look for, I don't know, sugar-ish kind of food and type of nutrition.

So at the end of the day, sleep is really the foundational part for athletes because it will elevate their cognitive and physical performance. But at the end of the day, it's also extremely helpful for the everyday healthy person who wants to go to the gym and just eat healthy. Yeah. And you also work with a bunch of people

like Lewis Hamilton. That guy's really good at driving cars. Like maybe the best ever that's ever walked on this planet. Do you guys have studies or tested? I'm sure there's something in there on reaction times, recoverability. Like how does working with somebody like that that's going 200-something miles an hour through basically New York City, and it's insanity what those people are doing.

I'm in love with Formula One. It's so cool. But when you have people that are not on your pad or on the cover, and then all of a sudden we've got somebody like Lewis Hamilton and Team Mercedes that's like the best in the world at this thing. How much are you able to track improvement once they actually are paying attention to their sleep and using the pad? Yeah, so we just started receiving the first data from some of the Formula One drivers. And so what they see is an improvement in their sleep quality and the amount of deep sleep. And that is not even tracked with our device. So they just compare their data before and after the pod using another device, and they have seen the improvement,

which is the best thing ever for us. It's not our data telling you that you're sleeping better. It's another third party device. So Formula One drivers, a lot of them now, they're getting the pod or they're already using the pot, our technology. Then the CrossFit, a bunch of people in CrossFit, including the CrossFit champion, is sleeping on it.

NFL and NBA players, tennis players, soccer players. Because again, it's so convenient. It's so easy. You have to do nothing. You just install the thing and you start sleeping better it's like taking a sleep pill but the thing is healthy and you have to do nothing i um i happen to work with a lot of people that work with your product including some some people that run sleep stuff for formula one teams and then a bunch of the other pros you mentioned

so i have some inside information here that the rest of the public doesn't have about your company. I'm going to ask you two questions, and I want you to spill the beans in front of the audience right now. You have a very interesting model where I think you kind of refer to it as like build out in front or something. But basically, you kind of share with the world what you're building in the future. You don't even hide it. You literally tell everyone as much as you can about what's coming next, right? So I want to ask about that. But the secondary question to that is the biggest complaint I've ever had with products like yours or yours for athletes is it's awesome.

I can't take this on the road. And I go on the road every three or four gate day. So this product doesn't matter. It's only at home. Do you have a solution for that? Or is a solution for that coming? Yeah. So both great questions.

So the first one is, is true, right? I tweet almost every Friday about our weekly progress. I call it building public. I think there are two reasons. The first one is the power of what we do is the power of our community. The word of mouth for us is a big deal. And so we just want them to feel all that we are doing and know what we are building, right? We want them to be excited. So I don't care if someone else or a sort of competitor can read what we are doing. I actually challenge them to beat us.

I used to be an athlete, so just try to beat us to move faster than us and let's play the game. So yeah, I love to share everything we do. Like I just shared with you guys the new algorithm that is coming. Then it's true, the biggest problem right now now the biggest aha moment is when people travel and they miss their pod because at the end of the day it's like think of having your car with ac right and then tomorrow someone removes your ac you say what the hell no how did i used to live without an ac i remember when i was a kid there was no AC in the car of my parents,

and the windows were manual, right? But now you give it for granted. But if I remove it, you say, no, no, no, no, I want that back. So we are working on that. The first thing we are doing is we are investing in hospitality. So you will start seeing our products in a lot of hotels, because that is the simplest way right the athlete gets to the hotel x where they are playing the game and everything is installed they put their settings that's it they don't even have to carry their device with them um then in for the future we are thinking okay can we do something portable but it's not that easy because there is a hub plus with the core

yeah i saw the hotel announcement a while ago and i was like oh and uh there's actually an airbnb option too right there is a bunch of airbnbs that now they they write that they have eight sleep technology in the title and then we are running a couple of pilot programs with pretty good hotels. And so the idea is in the future, there will be a way for you to know what hotels have eight sleep. And you can just stay there. So you fly to New York. Okay, I'll pick this hotel because it has eight sleep and is a good hotel. That's actually the greatest thing in the world

because when i travel like yes i get to go hang out with these guys but also i know i'm gonna sleep well i'm actually gonna sleep through the night i cannot it's like that feels like uh feels like freedom that's what it feels like i don't have one on my bed i may take hotel trips simply. Simply. The other pro of the hotel is try before you buy, right? So go and stay one night in this hotel, and then maybe we give you a discount to make it up for the cost of the night if you buy. How possible do you think it would be in the future to have some type of thin quilt that you could fold up and put into a suitcase and just take with you that would have a similar effect?

I think it's possible. Meaning from first principle, we can build it. How comfortable it is and where is in the order of our priorities. Because as a startup, you're still small, right? And when you have a limited number of people, if you do you don't do something else so it's always that trade-off yeah but it's cost of it yeah yeah yo presumably you're collecting you're collecting all this data for many hundreds or thousands or however many clients you have what kind of aggregate metrics have you guys seen um have you guys learned anything like on average where you can put numbers to it of people? You said some percentage increases at the very beginning of the call here, you know, 22% better sleep or whatever. What kind of metrics have you guys figured out over time for kind of the average person that starts using your product? And what does better sleep mean when you save those numbers?

Yeah, let me tell you two stories first, and then I'll answer to your question specifically. The first one is, so I receive a weekly report from my team about my health. So they collect data from all my wearables, including obviously the pod, and they send me a weekly report that aggregates everything. And so on Wednesday, I received this report and say, look, your heart rate arrest is going up and your HRV is down 20%. And I didn't tell them, but I had COVID.

But I wanted to see if it was reflected in the report. So story number one is we can identify very clearly if you're sick just through your HR and HRV. The second thing is around three months ago, I received a message from one of our customers that he said, you guys saved my life, and he actually used these words. So, essentially, his biometrics went all over the place. He went straight to the hospital, and they found a disease or a problem, and he got an immediate surgery, and that saved his life. So independently from 8-Sleep, what technology is achieving is incredible, right? This is a device that you don't have to wear, you don't have to charge.

You almost forget it's there and it exists. And now it's reaching this level of accuracy where it's 99% as accurate as an ECG. And again, outside of sleep, what will happen in the next couple of years with this type of devices is insane. The number of lives we will save probably will be as if the company keeps scaling in the millions. Then in terms of metrics, what really matters are HR and HRV. They are a great proxy, right? I'm particular to identify if you're getting sick. I think we will be able to predict if you're getting sick a couple of days in advance,

we can already kind of see it. We kind of see certain cardiovascular diseases in the backend. We cannot disclose it. We are not FDA approved. We are not a medical device. So let's make that clear. But technology wise is there. We see this stuff. We can see this stuff. We can just not disclose it. And then obviously sleep quality overall. So we know if you have sleep apnea, we know what your percentage average REM, your average

deep sleep. And the big difference between eyes and a wearable is because you don't charge it and you don't wear it, unless you are traveling, your data will always be there for you. And so if in three years from now, you start developing a disease and you want to have your data for your doctor,

we will be able to say, this is your data, share it with your doctor, this is your history. Oh, yeah. So I'm reading between the lines. In the next six months, you're going to have FDA approval, and then starting 2023, you're going to be able to have your insurance pay for this. Is this correct? If it was for the time being.

He stuttered. We got him. They don't move that fast. I know. Yeah. But we are ready for all that. Yes. That's a game changer for people, right?

If you make the argument in the medical as well as what sleep alone does for your physical health, why would an insurance company not want to pay for that? Yeah. One of the most frustrating things that can happen to anybody is when you lay down in bed and then three hours go by and all you've done is watch your brain spin over whatever stressors are happening in life. Do you have any data or just basically on the speed at which people are able to fall asleep when you start to look at large numbers across all the users? Yeah, I think on average, if I remember correctly, with our user base, our average customer is around 20 minutes.

But obviously, there is still a large portion or a decent portion of people that it takes a long time for them to fall asleep. And then there is another big portion of people that fall asleep, but then they wake up in the middle of the night and they can't fall asleep. And that is where they actually want a lot of help. Yeah. I know you guys have like a very extensive list of things from late caffeine. Did you meditate? Did you stretch before you went to bed? There's like tons of pieces in there.

What is the best way to fall asleep? Obviously, the temperature piece is really important. But I would imagine if you're getting enough feedback from people, you're able to put together a story of if there's some sort of meditation, some sort of stretching routine. Is there like a pattern people can start to adopt that can expedite that process? Yeah, I think there are a couple of things. So the first one is temperature, both the bed and the bedroom. The second is to start changing the color of the lights in your house, right? In my case, they switch to orange and they start dimming down automatically. I philips you um the other one is you need to start slowing down meaning if you work uh hard until now five minutes before

going to bed it becomes really hard maybe if you are young but as you start aging you know your brain will keep you know racing um another thing that helps a lot if you have it at home or if you are at a hotel is to do a sauna and uh and or a sauna with an ice bath that completely relaxes me so if you're in a hotel or if you buy some of these products that you can use at home that is another great way to um to do it and then then obviously meditation. Yeah. Is there a, go ahead Galvin, sorry bud.

Do you want to follow up on that? No, I was going to ask like a kind of change a little direction. So if you want to follow up on that, go ahead. It's all you do. Do you guys have like a, you said your whole team

tracks your data personally and gives you a weekly report. Do you have some sort of company policy regarding like making sure, or at least encouraging everyone on your team to get sufficient sleep? The reason I'm asking is in general, when you have building companies, you guys are well past startup stage, but like the ethos is the opposite, right? It's just like, everyone's working to sleep in two hours

a night, et cetera. Like, I have to imagine you guys are like, no, your all data is being tracked. And if you don't get seven and a half minimum, you don't get to come in today and you're fine 25. But like, do you guys really push it? Or is it more like, Hey, we've got to get shit done. Like we'll sleep later. I'm working on. Yeah.

I was going to say you, you've got eight hours to sleep and the rest of it, you have to be at work. No social life. We're tracking your sleep, but also tracking your amount of your work hours yeah well at that point i also want to see how hard they work out and their glucose spikes right it's not even just about sleep at that point i want to have

the whole health feature um we have a leaderboard um internally that we have used and we are using. And we use that to kind of compete against each other and who sleeps better. And one of our values is also we are everyday athletes. Because what I tell my team all the time is we need to think like athletes. So we work really, really hard. It's part of the game in a startup. But at the same time, it's like an athlete. It's not that you can just keep training and training or tomorrow you will not perform

because you're sore. And so I'm, for example, very methodical and obsessed with optimizing everything I do outside work to maximize my cognitive performance or physical performance. So I try to push them really hard in that direction as well. Yeah. Is there, like, can we give this to kids? You can. Yeah, formally we don't have a product for kids yet,

but it's actually interesting that we started seeing some of our users buying it for their kids. Yeah. Because temperature helps them fall asleep and sleep better, plus the parents can have data about their sleep and HR and HRV. Yeah, I feel like that would be wildly important. Are there any other – sorry, go ahead. I was going to say, by the way, I actually think this product is especially important for parents because I had three kids in three years, like back to back to back.

And when they're young, they can't keep the covers on themselves. And so like if they kick the covers off and then they're, and then they're, they're just laying there cold and you don't know that they're cold. And so for a long time, I kept the heat, like the temperature in my house a little bit warmer than I would like to sleep at. So I was always hot at nighttime because I wanted my kids, they kick their covers off and not just be sitting in their, in their beds really cold with me not knowing to go in there and pull the covers back up over them. So having something just in my bed to keep me cool while the temperature in the house is warmer for my kids was a total game changer.

Yeah. Yeah. They told me the same. Customers are saying the same. Their kids, they don't use their blankets properly. And so that is how temperature regulation can help them. Yeah. Are there any other benefits that you've heard

from your customer base or internal team that surprised you? Like most people, when they think of, if I get better sleep, and they could probably list out a whole bunch of things they would think they would feel better and be right. Are there any other ones that surprised you were like well we didn't expect that to happen but you've seen it enough so the other feature we have that customers really love is our

alarm and it's the vibration alarm with temperature and so i use it even this morning i woke up pretty early and so there is this vibration that wakes you up. And at the same time, the temperature of the bed changes. So if you were on the cold side, maybe it starts becoming really warm. But both of them, they work well. There is no sound in this alarm at all. And it works. But it's a good way to wake you up gradually.

So as the temperature changes in the bed, you start waking up. And the vibration is the final signal that it's really time to wake you up gradually. So as the temperature changes in the bed, you start waking up and the vibration is the final signal that it's really time to wake up. But it will never happen again that you wake up groggy with the sound going off while you're in the middle of a sleep and now you have a dream.

Yeah. You've mentioned biometrics a couple of times. Have you guys ever compared like lab reports with people that have used the product from like over a couple times have you guys ever compared like lab reports uh with people that have used the product from like over a couple month period from like blood work at the beginning blood work at the end and just kind of seeing the progression over a couple months yeah we have done it for sleep and we have used a clinical type of validated test and we have seen up to I think 32 or 37 back to sleep quality overall that is what customers report when you do when they compare this leap before and after

the thought very cool what biometrics are you guys actually testing now obviously everybody's not doing blood work leading up to to buying and buying the products but what do you guys actually tracking in in the in the in the hub yeah so the the the true biggest ones are all the HR and HRV because of the level of accuracy we have reached then next I will be will double down on sleep staging so deep sleep and red and a light sleep, right, is already there. But the goal is always to not raise the bar in terms of accuracy. And then we will get into respiration with the idea to look at snoring, and potentially in the

future, also things like sleep apnea. Obviously, sleep apnea is regulated, so you need FDA approval. But we can clearly track that 50% of people with sleep apnea they don't know they have it and they need to go to do a sleep study where they go in a clinic they cover them with sensors is a shitty experience and we can just tell you if you have sleep apnea in the first night you have the product in your own house. Yeah. You personally obviously use this. And you are the visionary for where this thing's going. So that means somewhere between using it and where you want the company to go, there's some pain point that you have with the

product that you would like to make better or ways to improve it. When you look at it, where is that little frustration that you, the problems you want to solve and what do you need to continue to advance the product? Yes. So I think it's almost in two dimensions. On one side, there is the current product. I think the current product can become even more accurate in some of the other metrics that I was telling you. And it needs to become even more intelligent to maximize your sleep. Because if we know a certain type of information, let's say you had alcohol,

and so your body temperature is slightly different, it needs to be able to automatically adjust. Or we can see that you train at 6 p.m. versus 6 a.m., your body temperature is different, it needs to adjust. And that is just happening. It's very linear. We just need to keep working. Then there are a couple of things we're working for the future where we want to control other

environmental factors. We want to control light, noise, oxygen, air quality, air temperature. And so that is where we have some prototypes that I'm testing and that is like living in the future. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So it's just the,

the mattress cover that you have now, correct. Is there any other products that you guys have today? We have all the mattress. Yeah. Yeah. It's just the mattress cover and there's no, nothing being released anytime soon,

but you guys do have add-ons to it. So the weighted blankets. Yeah. You sell accessories. You might then. You've got more products than one. No, yeah. We sell accessories because when our customers come and they buy,

they can buy the pillow, they can buy bed sheets, they can buy a protector, the weighted blanket. We also have a partnership with Hyper-Rise for the massage guns. And you can also buy the whole bed. So there is the cover that can be installed onto any mattress, or there is the whole mattress. And they have the same functions. This is today.

Then in the future, there will be more tech products that will come that will control other environmental factors for sleep optimization yep got it um you kind of mentioned this back in the beginning you said first principles a bunch which i absolutely love right so you're just walking through the problem from the very beginning and questioning every assumption right and walking around the way and you've already answered clearly a bunch of these right can we regulate sleep temperature yeah can we make this into a product like you're just walking along the path, which is really, really nice. So some of the pushback I've had on things when I've recommended this to athletes is sort of like,

well, I'll just make the temperature in the room cooler. I'll just turn my fan on, right? And you've kind of already answered one aspect of that, which is your body actually wants to change temperatures along the way right are there any other ways you could help me talk my athletes into it because like i'm gonna hit them with that and they're gonna go yeah yeah can you give me any more punch to go like this is also why you want to have this um or problems with just turning your fan on or your ac or anything like that? So, yes. And I'll step back for a second. So the first point to me is for an athlete, for 2,000 bags, you can improve your sleep 32%

and get 10% more deep sleep every single night. Why wouldn't you do it? I mean, you should be irresponsible. Then why you should still do it, other reasons. The first one, yeah, is what we discussed. Your your body temperature changes so a flat temperature in the bedroom is just wrong so it's penalizing your sleep at the same time your bed it just gets warmer and warmer during the night you can keep any temperature you want you can keep 58 degrees in the in the room but you're dissipating heat you're sleeping on a piece of damp foam,

the foam is retaining that heat and the bed becomes warmer and warmer during the night, which is absolutely what you don't want. The second thing is, even if you were adjusting the thermostat manually or you had a person adjusting it for you, the time it takes for the air temperature to change is very slow. But instead here you are in contact with the surface where there is water circulating that can change in a second. And you switch from deep sleep to REM in a second. And so that velocity is what you really need because temperature needs to change based

on your your stages. Yeah. So when you get them past that level, right, and they're like, hey, okay, I'm talking to this stuff, all these things are here. A lot of people recognize, I guess, hey, the next day I will feel sleepy if I sleep. And a lot of people recognize the long-term health benefits of sleeping. But is there anything else you can connect an athlete to saying, hey, you're going to shoot worse tomorrow.

You're going to make worse decisions. And I'll ask a guy this way. I have one individual, not an athlete actually, but he's a trader, like stock market- issue kind of things and he has i think was just aware of all years of his sleep data tracked against his losses and wins in the market and it is a very clear relationship between money lost on bad nights of sleep so for that cell it's like yeah he's getting like three years almost four years of these data some of the professional athletes we have multiple years as well so we can So for that cell, it's like, yeah, he's getting like three years, almost four years of these data. Some of the professional athletes, we have multiple years as well, so we can do some of these things, right?

Those tend to be very nice pain points when I'm like, look, who cares about whatever cost this is? It's a couple hundred dollars relative to, you know, one bad day on the course is going to be this much money for you or whatever. So putting it in terms of money for them is a big selling point. But are there any, again, other metrics besides like feeling sleepy and other stuff like that that you actually have seen internally, externally? Yeah, there are a couple.

So first, for any athlete, they are just increasing the risk of injury, first of all, right? By being sleep-deprived. So it's something they can control. It might happen, it might not. But just by being sleep-deprived, there is a higher odds that that happens. Second, cognitive performance. There is plenty of evidence that sleep improves cognitive performance. And so even if you play in the NBA and you need to shoot,

that cognitive performance makes And so even if you play in the NBA and you need to shoot, that cognitive performance makes the difference. That's also why a lot of NBA players, they take a nap in the mid-afternoon when they have a night match. The third is physical performance overall. So the amount of energy and so the amount of strain that you can tolerate and how hard you can push. So there is data. I don't remember the exact numbers on top of my mind, but I can provide those to you. And there is hard data. We also have data from a recent clinical study where we see that people sleeping on the pod report a higher level of daily energy.

They just feel more energized. Yeah, I would believe it. You bring up, you said you were talking about naps. How does the pod actually play into naps? Is it like you've got a 30-minute cooling session, 20-minute cooling session, then we're ramping people up? Like, how do you actually time that from like a 20-minute minute nap to a two hour nap to we've gone too far and now you've slept for three and a half hours in the middle of the day and totally botched your night?

We didn't build the mode yet. It will be a software update. Customers are asking for that. So right now you will do it manually. But in the near future, we'll release an app mode where you just say, oh yeah, I want to sleep 30 minutes or I want to sleep an hour or 15 minutes, whatever. We try to maximize that for you. And then we wake you up with vibration.

Oh, the vibration. Where does that come from? So in the covers, there is this vibrating system that is part of our alarm. And so we wake you up through vibration and temperature changes. People love it. Yeah, it's super cool. I like it a lot. Yeah. It is how you wake up peacefully.

Victory. Yeah. Yo, the cool side of the pillow is also a thing with people do you guys have any plans or is there anything on the market where it's a similar thing for just the pillow where you can just make your pillow nice and cool but it never turns into the warm side of the pillow where you have to flip it and get the

cool side of the pillow again and it just stays cool yeah I think we will build that too just a matter of time what would you like to have there? Tell me so I can start prototyping stuff. Exactly what I just said, just a pillow that just stays cool. That would be fantastic.

I don't know if it would be just like connected to the bed or how that would work, but I think people would buy that. 100%. Did you have an idea of what the actual internal temperature range is for somebody throughout the night? So obviously most people are aware that they kind of cruise around 98 degrees, right? Like how hot or cold do people get? And then the question behind that is, like, what does the mattress or the cover or the blanket do? Does it actually change your internal temperature?

Or is it just keeping the mattress from getting really, really hot? What are these values and fluctuations here? So I think you need to be within 1.5 degrees Celsius of body temperature during the night. That is the maximum range, somewhere between 0.7 and 1.5. And there are some optimal there. So the delta in your body temperature seems tiny, but for the body is meaningful. If you think of fever, right, it's still a big delta. But for a device to be able to make these changes, that is really tiny.

But the device itself can really range temperature from 55 degrees to 110 degrees. But obviously what matters for your body is what is called core body temperature that is different from the skin temperature um and so there's there is a lag and it's way more complicated to have an impact on that but we we do yeah for for a little bit of reference uh internal temperature body core temperature doesn't change much at all with even exercise you can even be pouring sweat and you're it's not really going to change those numbers are very tightly regulated yeah but if you get into 65 degree water or 105 degree you like the sensation is completely different right yeah when you see those numbers on your pad you

say 55 to 110 or something yeah it may or may not change your internal temperature or anything, but that really matters. That's a big, big deal. You'll feel significantly different. Start that question over. You can hear me now? Earlier, you were saying that if you can optimize sleep quality, then maybe you won't need to have a full eight hours of sleep to be fully rested.

You could knock that number down to seven or maybe six or whatever it is. Have you guys seen any actual improvements there where people are reporting full recovery, not feeling tired on less sleep than they would otherwise have reported if they weren't using one of your pods? What we have seen for now is already that people fall asleep faster, and so they can save time even simply there, up to 20 minutes faster.

And second is because they start getting better sleep, I think right now they didn't realize yet that maybe in a month, but probably in the same amount of time they're getting more rest and so I think as we stretch these there will be a point where you will be able to realize that they can get the same rest in less time actually okay so a question there that's part of me um a lot of times what happens to people is either they can't go to sleep or when they get to sleep, if they wake up anywhere between generally two to four AM, some folks are not

going to be able to go back to sleep. It's very challenging for some people to go back if they wake up in those hours. Now the mattress is presumably generally raising their temperature during that window, as you talked about earlier, right? During a couple hours before wake and it's going to go up. So if that's the the case say somebody wakes up at three and they're just like i can't go back to sleep ever the mattress is actually increasing their temperature which is maybe counteractive so should they just like restart and lower the temperature or is there a setting when you're like hey just hit the go back to sleep setting and it'll kind of start it again or do you have any idea what to do for those people who wake up and just can't get back to sleep? Yeah, so the device needs to become

more intelligent, and it's part of what our ML and AI engineers are working on for specifically all these cases, right? So the device needs to understand that you are awake, and so the original plan doesn't work anymore, and it needs to readjust the temperature plan based on the issue we see. A similar idea with nocturia, any information if it's helping with that, reducing the amount of time you have to wake up and go go pee the night or anything like that or have you seen any changes there? We have seen major changes in the amount of tosses and turns So we see a 20% drop because temperature adjusts,

and so you feel maybe less hot or less cold, and so you have a more restful sleep. I like it. Matteo, we've been tracking you down for like six, seven months now after we couldn't find you at the Eight Sleep booth in Miami. So I appreciate you uh making some time to come on here and hang out with us um where can people find you and actually get some really good sleep in their life yeah they should go on eight sleep.com eight like the number

just in letter e-i-g-h-t sleep.com there on the home page there is also the link to my twitter account i'm pretty active on twitter that is where i also post and tweet about what the company is doing in building yeah so great to ping me there very cool uh andy galpin yep twitter and instagram dr andy galpin that's the place there it is doug larson on On Instagram, Douglas E. Larson. Mateo, when you're ready to do some really extensive lab testing and get all the results, let's make it happen.

We do a crazy amount of taking things out of people's bodies. He knows, man. He's in the queue. He's been on Dan and I for eight months. We just haven't connected yet. I'm Anders Varner at anders varner we are barbell shrugged at barbell underscore shrug uh make sure you get over to eight sleep.com forward slash shrug mateo said eight sleep.com but you got to go to ours because we're going to help save uh

150 bucks ish on a um on a cover and uh you can sleep well uh friends we'll see you guys next week