Barbell Shrugged - How To Get Jacked Now: Training Volume, Nutrition, and Exercises to Grow Muscle and Get Strong w/ Anders Varner, Doug Larson, Travis Mash - Barbell Shrugged #443

Episode Date: February 24, 2020

In this episode of Barbell Shrugged, Anders, Doug, and Travis discuss:   Nutrition for gaining size Programming for size and strength How much volume do you need to grow muscle Nutrition protocols Exercise selection for strength Accessories for getting huge And more…   Anders Varner on Instagram Doug Larson on Instagram Travis Mash on Instagram ____________________________________________ TRAINING PROGRAMS   One Ton Challenge   One Ton Strong - 8 Weeks to PR your snatch, clean, jerk, squat, deadlift, and bench press   20 REP BACK SQUAT PROGRAM - Giant Legs and a Barrell Core   8 Week Snatch Cycle - 8 Weeks to PR you Snatch   Aerobic Monster - 12 week conditioning, long metcons, and pacing strategy ____________________________________________ Please Support Our Sponsors   “Save $20 on High Quality Sleep Aid at Momentous livemomentous.com/shrugged us code “SHRUGGED20” at checkout.   US Air Force Special Operations - http://airforce.com/specialops   Organifi - Save 20% using code: “Shrugged” at organifi.com/shrugged   PRx Performance - http://prxperformance.com use code “shrugged” to save 5%   http://kenergize.com/shrugged use Shrugged10 to save 10%   ------------------------------------------------------------------ Show notes at: http://www.shruggedcollective.com/bbs-ep443 ------------------------------------------------------------------ ► Subscribe to Barbell Shrugged's Channel Here ► Subscribe to Shrugged Collective's Channel Here http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedSubscribe 📲 🎧 Listen to the audio version on the Apple Podcast App or Stitcher for Android Here- http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedApple http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedStitcher Shrugged Collective is a network of fitness, health and performance shows that help people achieve their physical and mental health goals.  Usually in the gym, but outside as well. In 2012 they posted their first Barbell Shrugged podcast and have been putting out weekly free videos and podcasts ever since. Along the way we've created successful online coaching programs including The Shrugged Strength Challenge, The Muscle Gain Challenge, FLIGHT, Barbell Shredded, and Barbell Bikini. We're also dedicated to helping affiliate gym owners grow their businesses and better serve their members by providing owners tools and resources like the Barbell Business Podcast. Find Shrugged Collective and their flagship show Barbell Shrugged here: SUBSCRIBE ON ITUNES ► http://bit.ly/ShruggedCollectiveiTunes WEBSITE ► https://www.ShruggedCollective.com INSTAGRAM ► https://instagram.com/shruggedcollective FACEBOOK ► https://facebook.com/barbellshruggedpodcast TWITTER ► http://twitter.com/barbellshrugged

Snatch, clean, jerk, squat, deadlift, and bench with a lifetime goal of 2,000 pounds and 1,200 for you ladies. Gym owners, if you are looking to host the One Ton Challenge at your gym, I need you to send me an email at anders at barbellshrugged.com. zillions of CrossFit competitions, the hundreds of weightlifting competitions, the some powerlifting competitions, and have a truly unique experience that gets barbells in people's hands, smiles on their faces, high fives, and all the excitement and make it a profitable event, please send me an email, anders at barbellshrug.com. The Once On Challenge, we are it a profitable event, please send me an email. Anders at barbell shrug.com. The one-time challenge. We are working with gym owners, helping them host events using the marketing engine that is barbell shrug and helping you run profitable events, getting people super yoked, having

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today's show is all about getting jacked. How cool is that? It's all about getting jacked. Eating, training, how much volume you need. It's going to be fun. Doug Larson, Coach Travis Mash Travis mash your boy Anders Varner we'll see you at the break enjoy welcome to barbell shrugged I'm Anders Varner Doug Larson coach Travis mash we're at Lenore Rhine University in Hickory North Carolina never thought of being Hickory North Carolina today we're gonna be talking about getting jacked how do you put on weight how do you put on size How do you put on weight? How do you put on size? How do you put on muscle? How do you build muscle and make it sustainable? And everything you need to do from eating to lifting weights and how to make that happen.

But Travis, you're spending time in your life trying to build some muscle mass. My whole life. Only the last 30 years. That's all I do. Yeah, that's all you can do. We were out to dinner last night and Will, our our videographer the man behind the camera right now we were trying to tell him he was like so how much did you guys like eat when you're getting strong it's like well we ate until we were full right and then we'd take a little break until we weren't full and then you keep eating until you're full again and full means not just like i'm not hungry anymore it means i'm very

uncomfortable perfect and then you're doing it right and i think every person that's strong in this world probably has a similar story to the fact that you eat as much as you possibly can until you're uncomfortable you eat a little bit more so you're really uncomfortable and then you do it again an hour and a half trying to throw up yeah yeah that's exactly what i was told growing up like in high school playing high school football college footballs you're supposed to eat until you're ready to throw up wait for the feeling to go away and then just do it again yep repeat our strength coach in college is mike kent he's still in the game i'm pretty sure he was university florida strength coach until recently anyway he said if we were not walking to class after breakfast

with our hand over our mouth trying not to throw up, then don't talk to him about you're trying to gain weight. He'd be like, I won't take you seriously. So ultimately I would walk into my class saying, please, God. Because if you throw up, you've got to skip class and go back. That really is the majority of the game. Like lifting weights is fun. Like anyone can go lift weights and have a great time doing it, especially

when you're trying to gain muscle mass and you're just doing a lot of volume of fun heavy lifting. You're not conditioning yourself into the ground. You're not puking from doing intervals. You might puke from doing sets of 12 back squats, 5-10 sets in a row. That's certainly a possibility.

That happened to us routinely. Right after football season in college, we would have like a hypertrophy phase. Back when we were doing more of like a linear periodization type model where it was like all volume postseason and to just regain some weight and put on as much muscle mass as possible for the next season. But like the first couple weeks, every Monday when it was like, you know, five sets of ten back squats, then five sets of ten RDLs, et cetera, et cetera. Then you got lunges

and the whole deal like those are brutal lower body days yeah awesome i want to uh but fun yeah yeah when we when we talk about nutrition though i think there's a a bit of a misconception when you when we talk about the fact that we're eating as much as we possibly can um to specifically build strength and put on size and the fact that some people are going to do that and where there's a disconnect between like overeating and getting overweight and putting on and getting over fat or putting on bad weight. Which doesn't help anybody. The fact that we're talking about you should still be eating that many calories,

but what does the training look like? So on a nutrition side of things breaking down what actually needs to go into a macro breakdown and how you eat how you design a meal for building a lot of muscle and putting on mass and then why when you eat that much then we are actually lifting enough weight to turn it into muscle and what those training sessions look like so doug when you're thinking about like the the macro side of things of how you eat i know i have plenty of stories i don't know if i did it the exact right way but um when i was in like the the meatiest part of my training i would eat three pounds of meat a day with a lot of cheese on top

and a lot of guacamole on top. That sounds awesome. But when I say that to people, they're like, well, how did you not get fat? And they don't realize that, well, I owned a gym. I was waking up super early. I was training between 90 to 120 minutes a day at the highest intensity, lifting the most weight that I could possibly lift anywhere from doing like german volume training 20 rep back squats crossfit training olympic lifting all of it plus

the fact that i was in owning a gym coaching four to five classes a day so you're at a minute we put it when pedometers started coming out we used to track how much you walked during a single class in a 5 000 square foot gym and you walk about a mile every single so not only are you walking around picking kettlebells up and picking weights up and picking barbells up and demoing and running classes and running warm-ups but then you're also walking a mile every single so there isn't enough food in those days so when I say I'm taking a pound a one pound meat patty turning it over on a George Foreman grill and closing it, and that's breakfast, I'm burning that many calories in a day because the training side is so high. But if you were to take kind of like a normal person that's interested in just building muscle and laying out like a macro count per body weight, how do you structure like a protein fat carb ratio when you're talking

to people yeah i think if you want to go super easy you can just do 40 30 30 and then kind of just see how things go for you and then that's 40 protein 30 fat 30 carb uh well actually in this example i was thinking 40 carb especially for gaining weight like if you're gaining weight your carb numbers can actually be quite high like you need to make sure you hit all of your essential fatty acids and essential amino acids so get enough protein, get enough fat. And then as far as calories go, you can just load on carbs until your calories are high enough where you're actually still gaining weight. And they're easier to eat.

Yeah, delicious, right? They're more fun in a lot of cases. This is where the carb thing gets really crazy because people freak out about carbs. And I was like carnivore before carnivore was cool because all I had was like ground beef. Throw it on the patio. I'm hanging out in the gym all day. It wasn't like I had.

It's hard to get a lot of calories like that. But people freak out about sugar. And it's like if you're putting on weight, sugar can be your best friend. If you're trying to get strong and you've got to eat 400 grams of carbs in a day, I mean, put an oatmeal and dump some sugar on top and enjoy your life. Right, especially if it's within two hours of your training session, either before or after. You're going to preferentially partition those nutrients to go toward muscles and not be stored as body fat if you're within that time frame of your workout,

or more likely than you would be otherwise. Regardless of who you are, the bottom line is this. If you're trying to gain muscle, you have to be at a caloric surplus like when people are like i'm going to go be a caloric deficit and do hypergivine i'm like that isn't equate like it won't happen like you know you have to have something you have to have the extra calories to make you know the muscle cells bigger you know so like um you have to figure that out the easiest way in this you could easily google this you know you got to find out your basal metabolic rate. You've got to figure out how much activity you're going to have

and then eat more than that. Yeah. And as a general rule, like your maintenance calories are going to be somewhere around your body weight times an activity or a multiplier of like 13 to 15. It's going to be right about your maintenance. So when you're thinking about putting on and building a lot of muscle quickly, you're probably looking at some 17. I think like 18 to 20, depending on who you are. And if you look at those numbers and start playing it out,

it's a lot of food that you're going to be putting down. And this is for a person that is like a relatively lean, probably somewhere for males and like the 12 to 15 16 body fat like those numbers are going to be very hard to hit and really the discipline in your training is showing up to the gym being 100 committed every single day to lifting as much as possible yeah putting in the volume work and fuck you got to eat when you get home and you got to eat before and you got to eat because getting. Because getting to 3,500 calories a day, 4,000 calories a day, and being able to burn that stuff off is the job. Like, that is the discipline that goes into building a lot of muscle over a period of time.

My favorite thing is when people are like, you know, you talk to an athlete, and they know they need to gain weight, and they're like, look, I'm eating, you know, I'm eating all the time. I'm like, no, you're not. It's not like it's, you know, that you you are an alien and you're burning more calories than some other human i mean you just have it's math yeah figure the math out and eat more like you're lying to yourself if you're trying to gain weight and you can't you're not doing the work well i think a lot of people too they try they think they're eating to build but they don't know what eating means like if you're if you're eating

2 000 calories and you're on a like the once on challenge fan or the muscle gain challenge when you're not doing it you're gonna struggle you need to be one your body's in like a starvation mode so you're probably putting on more body fat than burning the calories and what you're not doing is gaining muscle that's for sure and if you're going to get strong, you need to up that to, I mean, you don't want to jump right into 3,500, but you need to be hitting going from 2,000 to getting to 2,300, 25, 27, and building that up because your metabolism has to be able to kick in and actually learn how to process the food that's going in. Right.

When you hear guys like us talk about you have to eat as much as humanly possible, eat until you throw up, like that's not a joke specifically, but we're kind of saying it tongue-in-cheek just to give context into how much food you might have to eat to actually make some progress. But that's also said within the context of three people that have been trying to gain weight for a long time. I was doing that for years on end. And so after a couple of years, it's hard to gain those, you know, extra few pounds that you're trying to gain. Especially, like, you know, I was talking about football season. Like, I only have a short window really to gain weight before it all shifts to, like, pure, you know, hypertrophy phase is only so long. And then it's all strength and speed leading up to preseason, your conditioning and the whole thing.

If you're right now trying to, like, lose body fat, your calories have been super low. And, like, you haven't really been doing a whole lot of strength training you don't need to go from whatever you're doing right now 2,000 calories 1,500 calories or whatever like low um you know um volume um low amount of food that you're eating right now and jumping straight to 5,000 calories where all of a sudden you know you're you're just fucking bloated and like so full all the time like all you're gonna do is it's not going to be that much more beneficial to add 2,000 calories over what you really need to gain muscle mass. So, you know, crank it up. You know, go to 3,000 calories.

You know, stay there for two weeks. Kind of see how the scale moves. See how you feel. And then bump it, you know, 250 for the next two weeks. And then 250 for the next two weeks. And kind of build your way up and kind of see what works for you yeah i think uh also getting people to recognize that building muscle is like a lagging indicator of all of the food and all the training it's not like you've been eating 3 000 calories for a month and you're like why haven't i put on 20 pounds on my back squat that may be four six months down the

road because you have to tune your body into it's time to grow. It takes a little while for the systems to really start to kick in and actually get people strong. And this all assumes that you're on a training program that makes sense for that goal. Yeah. Like if you're just doing any – if you go to random CrossFit classes, yeah, you can certainly build muscle mass in CrossFit classes and get stronger and get bigger and all that.

But it would be better to have a program that was very specifically dedicated to gaining muscle mass where you're kind of getting in that range of like 10, 15, 20 sets a week of like high-quality good sets on the big movements that actually matter, back squats and deadlifts and pull-ups and what have you. Which every block of the one-time challenge has specific – there's like a hypertrophy phase every other block. So we're trying to – I mean, there's only two ways, boys, to get strong. It's like you either get the muscle bigger or you get better at the movement.

There is nothing else. You can't – I mean, there are other things that affect it, but there's nothing you can do about it. Your genetics are your genetics. Your connective tissues are your connective tissues. Your fast-switch fibers are your fast-switch fibers. I mean, like, that's your mom and dad's fault. I specifically wanted to do this show because we have somebody on there and i actually train with them in uh in north carolina near my

house that's doing the one-ton challenge program and i was like dude are you he asked he was like maybe i want to shed some weight like can i do that on the one-ton challenge was like shedding weight is like a function well i would say he's probably in the 18 to 20 22 body fat like he has weight to lose but there's like the idea that you can't gain muscle and lose body fat at the same time which to me is oh it is correct assuming somebody is in like a 10 to 12 body fat range but if you're at 20 there's no reason you should be building muscle jacking your metabolism up super high while you're doing all the weightlifting. And then in turn, your body weight is going to come down or you're going to be losing body fat while you do that.

It's not like they don't flow together. But I asked him, I was like, well, what is your total caloric intake at right now? He's like, right about 1,900. And I was like, whoa, we got to back that thing down. Like, let's have a better conversation first off 1900 is starving if you're doing the one-ton challenge there's no way to get strong if you're doing the muscle gain challenge the amount of volume that's in those two programs is like it's just way too high to be eating that few so your body's freaking out that it's not

getting fed yes and now instead of like let's thinking about starving ourselves more to lose more weight and freaking our body out more and putting it more in this like. Catabolic state. Yeah. Is all you're doing. What we need to do is go the other way and let's go 2,300 for a month. And then in week six, week seven, we'll be able to go to 2,500, 2,600 a month or a day. And that way we can start to progressively build our metabolism right process more food and we'll be shedding body fat because metabolism is going to be through the roof

as you put on muscle agreed i definitely think it's easier to pick a direction yeah like i'm either going up or i'm going down right and not not try to do both at the same time like you you certainly can um i don't know about what this at same time really means, like not in the same moment, but maybe like today you're kind of like you're at a caloric surplus and you're really sore and you're putting on muscle mass and then the next two days you were low and you lost some body fat. It kind of goes up and down every day. I think that's potentially possible. I don't know if any research has been done on that specifically.

It's a tough one. But it's just so much easier to just pick a goal and just go 100%, no 80-20, go 100% toward that one singular most important priority goal. Get strong. I would recommend this. Get strong and maintain a body fat percentage. For a guy like that, maintain. Because here's what you're doing.

You're gaining muscle. So at the end of it, you've added muscle. Now cut it down. I mean, that's the way I would recommend. I think it's easier and more logical way. And it's better on your body. You know, you won't be, you'll be more anabolic, so you won't be breaking down all the time. That's the way I would recommend it. I think too many people look at losing weight as the problem when what the goal they're trying to really say is I'd like to lose body fat.

Right, right. Because nobody really cares about losing weight. They want to just be leaner. They want to look good. Yeah. Yeah. So if you're walking around at 22% body fat, 20% body fat, you're like fucking jacked, but no one gives a shit.

Right. Well, now it's time to maybe back the calories down to 50 a day and see what that looks like. That's what I would do, you guys. Don't you have the shreds thing? Bartle shredded. Shredded. Yeah. I would do the one-ton challenge and get as strong and as muscular as I could and follow

it right up with that that's what i mean if you're me training myself that's what that would make the most sense i would add tons of muscle in the year that i did the one-ton challenge i would do that get ripped go to the beach you know make all the girls look at me just kidding make my wife look at me more i mean that's that makes the most sense yeah i think having six to 12 month training blocks for specific goals is a good time frame. It's enough time to make progress, but it's not so long where you're just like totally fed up with doing the same thing over and over and over again. If you follow like the yearly cycle where you gain weight and put on muscle mass kind of all winter long,

and then you lean up for summer, and then you're like, it's like heavy conditioning and whatnot over the summer, and then you put on weight for through the winter, and you kind of like you have that cycle where it's like kind of eight eight months of gaining muscle and then four months of getting lean that's awesome i think that's a great cycle for kind of a regular person i'm not competing anything and results if you want to get jacked on the beach that would be the best way to do it right you mentioned a couple terms earlier when you were talking the bmr activity multiplier things like that. Just a little clarification. The BMR is literally the amount of food and calories you need to keep your brains and your organs and everything in your body.

If you were just laying in bed all day, which is typically somewhere around like a multiplier of 10, just laying in bed all day long. If you're a CrossFit coach and you're running four or five classes a day, now you have this thing called NEAT, non-exercise activity thermogenesis. Did I get that right? They just call it NEAT. That's impressive. That is the walking around and coaching your classes,

and then your multiplier increases again based on the amount of exercise that you're doing and the program that you're following, the volume that you're following, and that's why getting on a real program with a nutrition protocol designed for it is so important. Because when people call and they're like, what should I eat? And you're like, I don't fucking know.

Like, what do you do? Where are you at? What's your job? How much do you move around in a day? But on top of that, it gets really confusing because your body fat percentage, your training history, so much that is really important to just understanding where your metabolic rate is and how you process food. I mean, we just got done doing a show where I just ripped everybody that lives into this 80-20 mess. But I'm currently right now back to my three months of tracking macros, getting lean.

Are you really? I need to do it. I'm right on it right now. Come hang out with me, bro. I'll do a nutrition challenge with you. Yeah, I'm back on it. It's great. I'm right on it right now. Come hang out with me, bro. I'll do a nutrition challenge with you. Yeah, I'm back on it. It's great. I'm right around 2,300 calories a day.

I try to be sub that, but I never really am. It's usually where it ends up just because I like eating food. My maintenance calories is somewhere probably around 2,500, 2,600 a day, 100. So you're going a little bit of a deficit. Just a little bit, just to get back. I mean, I feel like the majority of anything that i do when it comes to like weight or losing body fat or anything like that like around the holidays it's more just like inflammation of like shitty food like the extra drink that you get handed and you're just like

so coming around in the new year i love just getting back to super lean and back to my normal life and then the rest of the year just carries me. Lately, I've just been making, like, some choices, lifestyle changes. Like, my wife and I started out by doing – I've lost about, let's see. Matt's looking lean right now for everyone listening on the radio right now. I've lost 15 since we were in Sweden. Kid looks lean. And so I only eat between 7 a.m. and 7 p.m.

So, like, all it did right there is, like, you know, I'll cut down my macros. It's just make sure I don't get up at night and, like, eat the brownies. And then I've been drinking more water. And literally, you know, making wiser choices. But really, those are the only two rules that I've given myself. And it's, and started doing some cardio, which is burning calories. It really just comes down to burning more than I'm eating.

If you talk to Lane Norton, has he ever been on the show? Lane has not been on the show. I would love to have him. Yeah, Lane, come hang out. He's my boy. Where does he live? He lives in Florida, Tampa.

Oh, we got to go to fucking Tampa. This is driving me nuts now. We talk about it every day. For multiple reasons. We hear about going to Tampa constantly. We got to go. He would tell you that when when it comes to like fat and calorie and carbohydrates that they're interchangeable depending on the person like whatever you can

stick to the like some people prefer i prefer fat you know i prefer like ribeye steaks and like some people prefer eating all the carbs so he said they're totally interchangeable and he said one is not better than the other. That's crazy. He said it just depends on what can you stick to. That's the key. The real goal being when we interviewed Dr. Michael T. Nelson, which is something that I love doing because he's so smart,

but the idea of metabolic flexibility and that it shouldn't matter. Your body should just be finely tuned so that if you're eating a high carb diet, your body can just instantly switch over to quick burning calories and the carbohydrates. And if you're in, if you cut the carbs, you can up the fat and your body can just instantly switch over to being a fat burner. Yeah. That's lame and agree. He would just say, but you know, some people, it wouldn't be sustainable because they like carbs too much. I'm not a car person. I'm much better on the fat side. But when I go into my counting stage of the year, I up the carbs. It's just way easier for me because I get to eat more food.

Right. And still, like, I think I can't just go smash a whole bag of dates. Yeah, right. I'll crush that right in my macro range. Perfect. Yeah. Oatmeal with some sugar in it. As long as it lines up it's so

easy to add add carbs to your meals like if you just have like a rice cooker and you just you always have rice on hand that you can add to anything and everything if you just have a bunch of potatoes you just they're just always in your fridge no matter what you can take a big scoop of mashed potatoes or just even just take a raw potato and just microwave for five minutes then you just have a potato like it basically costs nothing, and it tastes fantastic. Calorically, carbs are so rad. You can eat a lot. Go eat a cup of rice, and you're kind of full.

That's when the eating gets hard when you're looking at it, and you're like, fuck, I'm going to eat two cups of rice right now? It's a lot. A lot of people think that carbs are bad for you, or you have to eat so many. It's like, well, if you just ate the pure carb, the problem is you're eating the carb in a cookie form. And what a cookie is is it's sugar and butter melted together. And that's when things get really wild.

You start tacking on 12 grams of fat per serving plus the 25 grams of carbs. It's not necessarily just the carbs problem. That's my favorite thing about Lane is how he doesn't care how anyone eats. He just hates the terrible claims. You know, like the carnivore people would be like it cures cancer the vegans will say cures cancer and he's like and he just rips them apart like and he uses research you can't argue argue with him is like you know fighting the wall like there's nothing in it for you know you can't win that you know and i just see i love hitting the wall if There's nothing in it for you. You can't win that. I love that. If you want to have a great night, say you're bored one night,

you have nothing else to do, just get on Twitter and watch Lane execute people. Every time I'm like, why would you engage him? You're going to be made a fool of. You're going to gain nothing. If you gain a follower, that's not someone's buying from you. They're following you to laugh at you. To come at you. There is nothing in it for you.

He is brutal. He's so aggressive too. I love it too. People get mad at him. It's hard to come after him because he also squats 800. He's strong. He deadlifts a ton. Deadlifts like 7. I saw some big squat videos coming out of him recently. I think 650 I mean strong

You know but I've known him As soon as you say 800 Matt's like He's not me He's not even fucking cool He knows Getting around

Get him to slow down Slow the roll But Lane is I've known him Since he was 19 He was in No wait That's probably a lie

I was like 21 years old And he was already Doing his PhD And he was super smart then. And I knew at that moment, I was like, I'm going to stay friends with him. This dude seems to be way smarter than I am about this stuff, so probably good to keep him around. Making strong gyms stronger.

That's what we do, gym owners. Make sure you head over to OneTonChallenge.com. You can click on I am a gym leader, or you can send me an email, Anders at BarbellStruck.com. If you would like to be hosting the one-ton challenge at your gym, standing out in the crowd, I want to thank our sponsors over at Bioptimizers. Look, they've got a brand new product. It's called K-P-E-X, K-A-P-E-X.

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slash shrugged, and you will automatically get 10% off any package of KPEX with coupon code shrugged10, all one word. Shrugged10 at kenergize.com forward slash shrug. Friends, let's get jacked again. So the nutrition is one aspect of it, but how do we structure workouts, kind of periodizing? We talked about how doing a 6 to 12 month long-term goal-specific program for gaining muscle, building muscle um kind of how do you lay that year out and i mean really putting it into eight week blocks eight to twelve week blocks so that people are not only is there are their meals and their calories being periodized and you know

i love linear periodization as far as like everything in my life but increasing the calories to get to a specific place, but building a training program around it as well. There's three components. You know, there's mechanical tension is just adding weight to the bar. And then there's a totally blanked out metabolic response. And then there's also muscle damage. Those are the three.

There's only three ways that you can actually gain muscle. But lately, if you listen to Chris Beardsley, who's my go-to dude on hypertrophy, a lot of people don't know him yet, but you should. His Instagram is fantastic. You've got to find him on Instagram. He posts such good information. Right.

The number one is mechanical tension. It's like go to near failure and then, or there's two parts to that too. Like going to near failure is awesome. Guaranteed you're going to gain some muscle. And I definitely recommend doing some of that. But like I said, you know, I was talking to you guys yesterday about Dr. Stone and Chris Beardsley would agree, simply adding a higher volume and increasing that load would probably lead to more quality muscle, meaning faster twitch fibers. So there's that component too. But the bottom line is just add more weight to the bar. Getting the metabolic stress is important. However, Chris Beardsley is like, it's not as much as we thought, but yet I think the two together is where it really does well.

Metabolic stress, let me dumb this down, is like the pump. That's like the pump. That's the pump. You know, mechanical tension is nothing but like adding weight to the bar, and then the muscle damage is like the soreness that you're going to get. Right. It's tough to tease out which component there is the most important because you can't separate mechanical tension from metabolic stress or or muscular soreness right because you have to have the tension to create the other two at some

level i'm just such a big fan when we get and when i was training really hard to put on size of there's two parts of it the pure volume of how hard that training is when you start to get into higher rep counts big movements heavy long sets of deadlifts and squats. But then the mental side of that too. I feel like that really becomes the discipline in the training room. Can you really stick these training sessions out? Because you're in there for 90 minutes, and everything is as heavy and as long as you can go for a very long time um thinking about

like some of the bigger i mean german volume training clearly is one of them but like my favorite uh yeah 10 by 10 i mean if you sit down and under 10 by 10 squat at 60 you are fucked for a couple days like you're gonna feel that probably more than a couple of it but i'm yet to have one human do that and not pr well that's what that's two weeks later that's really what i wanted to kind of get your opinion on is like how when you think about writing a program of like okay we got to get this kid huge we've got six months do we do we instantly go to 10 by 10 uh i mean it doesn't have to be german volume training but like it's is 100. Yeah, I think 5x10.

You know, here's what I found. I'm going to make it as simple as possible. I have found like a very high volume block like 10x10s, even like, you know, with some 5x5s. I like undulated periodization. A very high volume block that feels like it's going to kill you and make you know you're gonna feel yourself feeling weaker followed by an extremely deloaded week followed by let's get strong now leads to prs like that is like the magic bullet and it's not even that magic it's like i just gave you what to do and so if you follow that a terrible block followed by not so terrible equals prs yeah so you know you probably won't do it and we'll keep

winning but that's it so um i like winning so please don't do it but you know that's the magic don't follow don't follow that is it man you know obviously in weightlifting you got to get better at weightlifting but if you're a powerlifter that's it well so that's that's actually a really good point i think is using the olympic lifts as your speed 1RM type muscle fiber. Right. And then as soon as you're done with your technique work and kind of the fast lifts, which should be no more than threes to begin with. Right. Now you've got ones to threes, somewhere in the 80% to 90% range.

Lots of technique. Lots of really nice movement. Lots of speed, power. And then move right into time to get fucking jacked yeah and uh yeah high rep we have found leaving like one rep you know in the tank is a little bit better because when you go to complete failure the recovery's so long you know like it delay you like because mechanical tension the how many times can you do it, adds up too. So if it takes you four days to recover, then you've missed the boat there too.

You want to stop before you're destroyed so you can come back two or three days later versus four or five. So it's mechanical tension on top of how many times can I do it too. So frequency plays a huge role. You're looking at total volume over the block. That's the key right there. Not just the single training session. Yeah, because if you have to do one session, one squat session per week, and that's all you do, it's tough to get the amount off.

Have you noticed any difference in taking that volume work but adding it as, like, I know in the One-Ton Challenge program, it's like 10 by 3 front squats, which for a lot of people is a lot of work. It's a lot of work. Especially when you start getting into percentages. But using like a front squat as far as recovery goes, because the weight has to be a little bit lower. Exactly.

The position has to be a little bit lower. And in my opinion, there's significantly more benefit athletically to a front squat than back squats yeah um but maintaining a high level of volume and the recovery being faster by making kind of the mechanical advantage of or disadvantage of the front squat versus the back squat do you program that a lot more because you can get your athletes just as strong but keeping them healthier and recovering faster there's multiple reasons the front squat like even for my power lifters there's multiple reasons why we do it because, number one, out of the three, low bar, high bar, and front squat, it's going to strengthen the back more, which in both sports,

the back is normally, like, the determining factor of who ends up being the greatest. You've never seen the greatest power lifter in the world with a weak back. Same thing. Look at the best weightlifters. Look at Lou. That dude's back. I mean, it's bodybuilding ready. So we do it to strengthen the torso to where the spinal extensors can get strong.

But, yeah, then to limit the load on the joints a little bit. But there's also, as far as the quads it's just as good you know it's just as good as the high bar squat minus the lows a little bit less so it's perfect for what i'm going for when you periodize that out you're starting i mean we can just call it five by ten front squats or ten by three front squats we're starting into the volume but you want that to translate in two three months down the road in a 12-week block into prs so you've got people building massive amounts of muscle how do you kind of back that down from a 10 to a 1 is it more linear or is it more how are the jumps or is it a linear like okay

we're going six weeks at tens then we go four weeks at eights fives now we do undulate i mean at the end of the day, I got news for everyone. It's all linear. The whole goal is like to start here and then end here, which is linear in nature. It's just how do you get there is where we debate. But, you know, I believe undulating periodization is a little bit better. Here's why. It's because, you know, spending the quality time, the entire block on the absolute strength range

gets people prepared for when it's time to do the 1RM, which is all that we can do. As a strength athlete, all that really matters is your 1RM. So if you set up 10RM PR, you set a 5RM PR, a 3RM PR, and then your 1RM doesn't change, all of that was for nothing. So you're working on it the entire time. We're doing singles several weeks before we're to do a max true max single well that's a big thing too because if you just spend your time doing something like 10 by 10 5 by 10 you grow but you're growing a lot

of slow twitch fibers you're not growing the musculature that's going to get you to a new 1rm so you may have a bigger 3RM, a bigger 5, but when you go to that max single, you're not ready. You're not ready at all. The neuromuscular system is not ready. I think there's some pretty good studies that says the body totally perceives like weight that's below 85% and above 85% completely different. So if you stay 85% and below the entire time,

then at the very last four weeks you're like, all right, let's go. It's going to take a long time for your body to adapt to that stimulus. Yeah. I mean, in my experience, and we've, you know, our athletes, I think nobody would argue that, you know, in general, our weightlifters are by far the strongest. Talking about absolute strength. You know, they can argue technique all they want, but they cannot argue absolute strength. And I think that's why. We always had our athletes, it would be a lot of tons of technique olympic lifting volume work right as

the season started for crossfit and then as we moved into the new year this was when everything was based off the open being at the end of february we would hit from basically like through the holidays it would just be crazy volume and And that's twofold, like I was talking about earlier. One, we want people to be giants, moving them into being as fast as they possibly can. But the mental side of the high rep stuff and just building that mental strength to get through those training sessions, which are just grueling at times, that was my favorite part of the year because that's when you separate people yeah that would separate me right there i'll stick to powerlifting but it's totally you know there was a i've read a couple times where when people transition from

bodybuilding to crossfit and or and or powerlifting or weightlifting to crossfit a lot of times the bodybuilders actually do well because they spend so much time with the high reps. They're used to that, as you guys would say, pain cave. Whereas a weightlifter is like, wait, hold up. I've got to sit down. I've got to do more than once. CrossFit is more of a middle-of-the-road strength sport,

just like bodybuilding is kind of more of a middle-of-the-road strength sport. CrossFit is probably a little bit higher in bodybuilding in some cases because they have more heavy lifting as a part of the sport. But not like weightlifting and powerlifting where everything is based on one-rep max and that's all that really matters. They're all the way at the end of the continuum. But as opposed to the endurance athletes, the continuum for CrossFit is much closer to the weightlifter side

than it is to the triathlete side. So weightlifters tend to do fantastic in CrossFit for many reasons compared to the endurance athletes. Totally. You were talking about muscular efficiency getting better at the movement. Yeah, totally. When I think about that, I don't think about just exercise technique and just practicing and having kind of like finding the right groove and all that stuff is definitely relevant.

But then from more of like a physiological point of view, your muscles are kind of like finding the right groove and all that stuff is definitely relevant. But then from more of like a physiological point of view, your muscles are kind of structured like a ponytail where each individual hair within the ponytail is a single muscle fiber. So as far as efficiency is concerned, say the three of us are doing a tug-of-war and each one of us is counted as an individual muscle fiber. If we're doing tug-of-war and Travis starts pulling and then Anders joins in five seconds later and then I join in five seconds later, we're going to lose. But if we all pull at the same time, then we're pulling maximum effort, maximum force right from the get-go.

So it's kind of like that with your muscles as well. Your muscle fibers are going to be recruited according to how big they are. The size principle of muscular contractions, you have the small muscle fibers start to contract first. Mostly that's the slow switch fibers and whatnot. And then the bigger and bigger and bigger fibers follow. And how quickly those fibers are recruited, how much time between getting the

first one, the second one, the third one, the fourth one, versus you just recruit all of them essentially at the same time. It's really going to determine your rate of force development and how powerful you are. If you want to try that while you're going to work, you can just make a fist, and you'll feel your fingers get really tight, and then you'll feel your forearms, and then sooner or later you'll feel it all the way up in your shoulders,

how everything has to contract. You tried to one-up him right there? No. That was good. I'm jumping in on his ponytail. Actually, along with that, there's one other piece where when your individual fibers contract, they only contract at max contraction. Right.

They only contract 100% or nothing. But you have, I don't know what the actual numbers are, but say there's 1,000 of them. So if 10 of them are contracting maximally, and then they rest, and then the next 10 are contracting maximally, and then they rest, your muscle fibers are just pulling letting go pulling letting go pulling letting go and that that asynchronous contraction of all the muscle fibers kind of pulling and letting go pulling letting go all at the same time accounts for a smooth contraction so if you can as far as efficiency goes if you can minimize the time in between an individual single muscle fiber pulling and then resting and then pulling again if that muscle fiber these aren't real numbers but like

if that muscle fiber took two seconds to pull again, so it only contracted every two seconds versus every second versus every half second or whatever it is, then again your rate of force development is going to go up because now you have a larger percentage of your individual muscle fibers all pulling at the same time at all times. If you want to see an example of what you're talking about, if you look at Wes Kitts, we've talked about him plenty of times,

but I don't think there's an athlete out there who has a better rate of force development. He goes from zero to 100. I remember when I first saw him up close, we were at Rogue. It was like a little camp that they put on for Team USA athletes. It was for the 2017 World Team, and I saw him when he snatched 170. Honestly, he went from being still he was at full speed the second he started pulling i'm like and like he said um he looked at me he's like what do you think i should go i'm like without a doubt 180 like it was like some asinine number no i told

200 just do it no I told him 180. I said, if you do anything else besides 180, you're a sissy. I didn't say sissy, but he put on 180. That's the one and only time he's snatched it so far, but you need to be snatching 180, man. Let's go, Wes. Rate of force development. Go watch, and then you'll understand what we're talking about.

No other athlete demonstrates it more than him. That's why he's going to the Olympics this year. His technique is good, but it's not perfect. His mobility is good, it's not perfect. His rate of force development is second to none. When we were down in Jamaica watching the sprinters, those people are incredible at that too. They're not specifically in the weightlifting

and have the timing of weightlifters and snatch a clean and jerk, but getting out of the blocks. We're standing on the blocks, and those teenagers take off. Gone. It is so fast when they jump out of there. As soon as they hear the gun, their body's just ready to fire. Rate of force development, nothing on earth athletically gets my heart pounding more than seeing an athlete be able to do something like that, unlike everybody else.

You know, when you see Wes pull, there's something not normal about him. Like we were in Jamaica. There's something not normal about these people who are able to exert force that quickly and that forcefully. It's mind-blowing. It's what gets me going more than any. There's a lot of things. We can all argue who's the most athletic i'm talking about that one quality of athleticism is my favorite to watch yeah it's like you know that person is not normal it's like when somebody you know you know has an extremely high vertical lead it's just it's just not normal and they're

the same people they're able to exert that force watching Wes lift at the one-ton challenge at the CrossFit Games was not just watching him lift and move those heavy-ass weights as easily as he did. Because, I mean, he was hitting like 85%. Yeah, he just competed at the Pan Am Games. He won gold at the Pan Ams and flew overnight to just do the challenge. But when you see, like, the CrossFit, Matt Frazier is a very, very strong human being. He's the strongest person in CrossFit. And then when you have 3,000 people in the stands that only know Matt Frazier as the strongest, and then Wes shows up, and they go, oh, oh, oh, that's what, like, the best in the world strong looks like.

It is so wild. And, like, Wes is doing power jerks, basically, with, like, 400 in the world strong looks like. It is so wild. And Wes is doing power jerks basically with 400 plus pounds over his head. It's like 430 and he's just like, dink, cool. And then he racks it on his back. He's not even dropping it. And you just go, oh my gosh. I remember looking up and there was just walls of cameras of people's jaws just on the floor because he's so fast so explosive and the

timing is just bam um but getting back to the volume i really want to touch on um upper body pulling um we talk a lot anytime volume comes up because squat programs are so sexy and everybody wants the new coolest one and thinks there's some magic potion to it um yeah which is awesome yeah for all of us you should totally check ours out um but the like upper back training um i think is a very it's clearly very important especially a lot of rowing um but do you have any numbers or rep ranges that you like to hang out in as far as upper back rowing i don't really go to singles there or really triples you know because it's about you know they need to be able to sustain you know a contraction for a long time it's really about isometric contraction in the back because there's not a lot of flexion extension it's just

there so you know i keep the reps higher you know rows it's not just rows though because it's really the spinal extensors it's all the above rows is a part of it because if the scapula stays intact, you know, so will, you know, as the scapula goes, so goes. In my experience, the spinal extensors. There's debate there, which is silly. But, you know, but then doing like good mornings, you know, doing a front rack, which is in the program, like front squat carries. If you want to work your back, that is my favorite. Like you're going to be wanting to get pulled over or even search your carries would be the same thing but um yeah back is is key like i said i don't know that there's ever been a great strength

athlete i'm trying to think that did not have an extraordinarily huge back like ed kohn his back you guys probably don't remember but there's a long time ago, he was in Flex Magazine with Dorian Yates. Flex Magazine. And they put him side by side. This is when I first got turned on to Ed Cohn. Dorian was a Mr. Olympia who was very famously known specifically for his back. He was like the first giant. First giant.

But here he was going against the best powerlifter of all time, and their backs were pretty darn close. Obviously, you know, Ed was not tanned up. He's super pale and white. Work on that, Ed. But, like, Dory was tanned. But as far as, like, you know, overall size, like, doggone, man, his back, Ed Cohen's back was amazing.

Well, I noticed in any of my training, if I have this half-baked theory that I'll never do just because I love training so much and I will always want to be in the gym. But if I could do high rep squats, a little bit of Olympic lifting, and high rep upper body pull, I could train twice a week and maintain roughly 90% of my strength for an incredibly long time. You sure could. Because you would just be able to have a large back, put in the volume, eat the right amount of food, and then squats and pulls, squats and deads. And I think you could stay at a very, very high level. You would stay. Well, yeah.

But I would assume that if your training age is high enough, maintaining those two pieces, you'll be able to stay at a relatively good size and strength for a very long time. I'd want to do some bench. I like having big packs. Well, that also gets into another thing that I actually had notes that I wanted to talk about because the ratios of pulling to pushing, if there's a single thing that I do, overhead pressing I do a lot of. I love overhead pressing. Lots of push press because I think that one's just a lot healthier for my shoulders

and a lot of just the general beat down over the years. I would agree. Jerks are just too fast and too easy to timing to get weird um but i find that i'm at like a three to one pull to press right on if you gave me like a month-long training block of like writing down everything that i do it's got to be three to one maybe even four to one of pulling to pressing i think if you're like a crossfitter or a weightlifter i think that would be fine you know but like you know as a powerlifter that's an overkill even the whole you know um louis simmons would say two to one even that has been found to be too much really what it is here's the nugget for everyone listening it's really

external rotation to internal rotation so if you're benching a lot do something that's when you know i even for my powerlifters program a lot of like muscle snatch like from the hang because it's external rotation like over and over to negate that so much you see my powerlifters, program a lot of, like, muscle snatch, like, from the hang because it's external rotation, like, over and over to negate that so much. You see the powerlifters walking with their hands turned inside. I mean, that's guaranteed they're going to get hurt. And then it's going to make the rest of their life miserable, and they're not going to be able to do other things. But, like, if they just would balance that with some external rotation, whether it be, like, you know, the muscle snatch, dumbbell power cleans done properly you know those things would keep you in balance but um the rows are for old i mean they're good too but they're not

going to make you injury free like maybe they thought in the past but the external to internal will definitely keep i feel like the reason i end up doing it or talking to people about doing more pulling is just the overall size of the musculature when you're pulling like there's just so many more angles that you can hit whereas like a bench yeah there's a lot of when you're pulling like there's just so many more angles that you can hit whereas like a bench yeah there's a lot of insertion points and like there's a lot of different angles that you can hit in the bench right but fuck if you just put a lat next to a pec yeah there's a whole lot of meat in the backside that is going to be driving the power the size right like it's like when someone asks you like i want to build big arms and you just go

we'll do more triceps but everybody wants to do biceps because that's the one you flex right but triceps are a giant that's the largest part of your arm like 66 percent or more yeah and and i feel like that's why i end up doing so much more pulling it's just because it's like how many different angles and how much more volume and weight can I add to a row, croc rows, one-arm dumbbell rows, like pull-ups. And then, you know, it's endless. There's just something so cool, too, when you see somebody walk away from you and their back is just massive. Yeah. It's like the coolest thing ever.

Yeah, it's one of those, like, markers of, like, I put in my work. Yep. Like, a lot of people may having a big chest is a a thing it looks very cool whether it's functional or not is its own it's definitely not but the battle it looks super cool but when you see somebody with like an ed like slap dude the best ever i was standing next to you at the crossfit games and um son of a bitch, the dude from NorCal that showed up with the big X in his head, and he was like, oh, ex-football player, come on. Neil Maddox.

We're staying at the CrossFit Games. Neil Maddox is like 45 years old, and he's like across the football field. And when your lat is etched out at the bottom of your low back and it looks like you just – like you look at an ab in your low back, you are a monster. He's just got slabs of beef hanging off his low back that – it was – and you just like – you could be the dumbest person in the world that's never walked into a gym in your life, and you go, that guy.

I don't know what he does, but I choose him. That's cool. Because it's just straight up. You look at the back, and you go, that dude's put in the work, and he's just well-bred. A lot of that, too, is genetics. Wearing inserts, because the lats do differ in where they insert for some people. Dorian, that's why he was famous, because his lats attached so low. Literally, it was like lat ended ended and then here's his hip.

It's like, that's beautiful. Like, no matter what I do, that's not in the cards. It doesn't attach that low. Yeah. And you got to be super lean to be able to see exactly where your lats are attaching. Totally. They make it look like you have the wings on your back and you got, like, the Christmas tree in the middle where your thoracolumbar fascia is. Like, you got to be super, super lean to see all that.

Yeah. Which Dorian certainly was, especially pre-contest. Yeah. 4%. He looked so gangster. That's why I love Dorian because he lifted like a power lifter. At the end, he had a torn bicep, a torn pec. He was like a warrior bodybuilder. He looked all deformed but just incredibly huge and like he

looked like a cartoon character like he was my favorite i want to go there someday i met him and we've talked but i want to go to his gym it was real famous back in the day it's he's from great britain he's from london yeah there's some like dungeon gym in the basement where i was gonna say it's in a basement somewhere when he was talking about a rogan when he was on rogan it was like god i want to go there i don't even know if they got air yeah he also has a really good one on london real if you want to go listen to him talk about his kind of his current life i love gotta get him on the show he's 100 yeah i would love to get him on the show man like he's i mean i loved him i well he used to talk about like the insanity of his leg days, like, just crippling people and the amount of, like, volume.

But bodybuilders also take things. So, like, when you look at their training, it's like, especially when they're doing, like, a lot of isolation stuff, but it's like, we're going to do the full squat. And then when that's too heavy, we lighten the weight. And we're going to do these, like, massive drop sets. And then we're going to do, like drop sets. Then we're going to do a super set on top of that. Then we're going to do even more partial reps, and every single range of motion is 15 to 20 reps until you throw up. Then we lighten the weight a little bit.

He was a hit guy. He was a Mike Mincer go-to-failure. He would choose eight to ten exercises and do one to two sets to failure on each of them. I know because I did the muscle fitness and tried it. I mean, I got huge, but I was dying. I didn't get a lot stronger, but I was jacked. Yeah, I love that guy.

I wouldn't think you would get much stronger on that. No, because now that I understand what Dr. Stone, I got to send you guys that study. Now that I know, yeah, it's going to make you bigger, but the fiber type is not the one that you want to get bigger so well that's their game too the pageantry of bodybuilding is just being a giant and he was still strong though dorian was strong he would do 500 for eight on deadlifts super strict and like so he was no joke i feel like people get bodybuilders a lot of shit for

not being strong but go live with them relative to most normal people, they're still fucking really strong. If you're 275 and lean and you're all muscly, you're pretty strong. Maybe you don't deadlift 1,050. Maybe you only deadlift 600. But you're still pretty fucking strong. Still stronger than the people talking shit. Stronger than everybody. Johnny O. Jackson, that dude, you guys know who that is?

I do. Oh, that's my favorite because we competed against each other, which I won. But, you know, he was so huge. And, like, he was a professional bodybuilder. Then he came to powerlifting and started dominating quickly. But then he, you know, came to WPO, and he's like, I'm going to dominate powerlifting too. Well, Ronnie was a powerlifter before he showed up to bodybuilding.

Yeah, and a good one. Yeah. And, I mean, he was a giant. Dude, when I watched his most recent documentary that came out, like I was a giant. Oh, yeah. They showed like the first time, not the first time because no one really had a camera out,

but they showed like the early days of him training at Metroflex, and he had like the veins popping through his spandex, and it was like cool. Same thing. Go on YouTube and look up Ronnie Coleman. Unbelievable. That was like cool they just don't go on youtube and look up ron and coleman unbelievable and that was like his like peak he did he did a couple of different videos like this but that was one of his like peak shape bodybuilding documentary videos where he's doing bent rows with like 495 for like sets 12 it's just too fucking big yeah yeah giants they train together

and you want to know what eating looks like on On his newest documentary, they have a lot of video of him. If you want to know what the biggest, strongest dudes in the world are eating on a daily basis, they got him at the cop station eating lunch. And it's not like, oh, you're going to eat a pound of chicken. It's like four pounds of chicken. It's like a plate of fucking chicken that is so large. And the only way you can get it down is to pour barbecue sauce all over it so that you can turn it

into as much ice cream like sugary deliciousness because your body just will fucking hate you if you eat that much plain chicken breast at once. And then he has like french fries on top of it and you're like, that's what it's like to be 300 pounds and 4% body fat and look like a

shredded monster and win Olympia nine times. This is not the path to an idealized healthy body. No, don't do that. This is how to get as big as... The whole documentary is about how crippled he is. Right. To be the biggest person in the world, the most muscular, you definitely do need to do that.

If you're trying to be healthy, you probably don't need to do that. And take the drugs that he did, too. There's that part, too. A mountain of drugs. A tackle box full of supplements. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and to recap, going back, finding a good activity multiplier to fit your body weight, getting the reps in, making sure the volume is the right,

getting on a program that actually is designed for building muscle and finding the caloric rate. Travis Mash, where can people find you? Go to mashlead.com, Instagram, Mashlead Performance. Yeah. Doug Larson. Right on. Find me on Instagram, at Douglas E. Larson. I am Anders Varner, at Anders Varner.

Muscle gain challenge, one-ton challenge, snatch, clean jerk, squat, deadlift, and bench. Lifetime goal, 2,000 pounds. Ladies, 1,200. You can get over and download our free 97-page e-book at OneTonChallenge.com. We'll see you guys next week. That's a wrap, friends. What a beautiful day. Organifi.com forward slash shrug to save 20% on the green, red, and the gold.

Kenergize.com forward slash shrug to use shrugged 10 to save 10% on brand new product from Bioptimizers called Kpex. Gym owners hosting the One Ton Challenge at your gym. I'm Anders at barbellshrug.com. You need to reach out to me. Friends, we will see you on Wednesday.