Barbell Shrugged - How to Train Hard Without Breaking Down with Mike Robertson, Doug Larson, Dr. Mike Lane and Coach Travis Mash #850

Episode Date: May 27, 2026

In this episode, strength coach, educator, and IFAST co-founder Mike Robertson joins Doug Larson, Dr. Mike Lane, and Coach Travis Mash to talk about how serious lifters and athletes can train hard without destroying their bodies in the process. Mike shares his path from early T-Nation contributor to gym owner and longtime coach, explaining how his background in biomechanics shaped the way he evaluates movement, manages athletes, and builds training systems that support long-term performance. The crew also reflects on the early 2000s strength culture, the lessons learned from powerlifting, and why the best athletes often need a coach who can pull them back before ego, pain, or poor recovery catches up with them. The conversation gets into the practical side of staying healthy while still pushing performance: using force plate data and velocity-based training to make better decisions, watching for early signs of breakdown, and creating different exercise "buckets" for days when the body feels great, okay, or beat up. Mike explains why loss of hip internal rotation, lack of movement variability, and constantly chasing load can eventually lead to back, hip, or knee issues, even if the athlete feels fine for years. The team also breaks down how to train around pain and injury, when to adjust instead of quit, and why smart movement, mobility, isometrics, sled work, and lower-stress training days can keep athletes moving forward without digging a deeper recovery hole. Links: Doug Larson on InstagramCoach Travis Mash on Instagram

Shrugged family this week on Barbell Shrug. Me, Mike and Travis talk with Mike Robertson. I was actually super stoked to have Mike on the show. I have a lot of respect for Mike. I said this on the show, but 20 years ago when I was in graduate school, I used to read his articles, him and Cressy, and that's Eric Cressy, Eric Cressey, Bill Hartman, Mike Boyle, Great Cook, all those guys that were on Teen Nation back in the day,

back when Teen Nation was the place to be. This is like back before YouTube was barely even a thing at that time. Social media was. wasn't a thing in the same way at that time. Facebook existed, Instagram wasn't a thing at all. These guys were writing articles, and I learned a ton from them on the practical side of training. I was learning the academic side of training,

or the academic side of physiology and sport and kinesiology in graduate school, of course, but the practical side of training, I debatably learned a hell of a lot more by reading their articles on T-Nation while I was at my, it was like an internship at the, athletic facility where I was doing all of the fitness assessments and managing the personal trainers and all that and while I had downtime I would just be reading articles on T-Nation on my

computer and Mike was one of the guys I read a hell of a lot of and I bought some of his products including Assess and Correct and a bunch of other ones back when they would send you a CD back in the day so I learned a ton for Mike I got a lot of respect for him he's a brilliant dude and I was really really happy to have him on the show so if you like lifting especially lifting heavy. Mike was a powerlifter and you're doing it in a very mechanically safe way. Good technique. Keeping your joints healthy for the long term. This episode is for you. Enjoy the show. Welcome to Barbels Drug. I'm Doug Larson here with Dr. Mike Lane and coach Travis Mash. Special guest today, Mike Robertson. I didn't actually tell you this before the show, but dude,

I was reading your stuff like 20 years ago. Let's go. When I was in graduate school, I was learning my academic stuff, of course, but then also when I wasn't, when I wasn't learning all the work that was assigned to me, I was reading Teenation and I was reading, I was reading your stuff and and Cressy and Boyle and Great Cook and that whole crew back then and damn near half the knowledge I learned in graduate school was reading cool articles like like like you wrote so I was actually super stoked to hear that you're going to be on the show today so welcome to show my friend oh dude first off I really appreciate that and man I used to think Fridays were like the best day not just because it was the

weekend but man when those five teenation articles dropped every Friday I was like let's go new stuff you know yeah no that was the heyday man I appreciate that I was very lucky to get in there. It was just good times, man. Like different era, different era. I called it the education era. Man, I feel like everybody was locked in, wanting to learn and get better. And it was fun.

It was fun. It was a good era. I was actually at the Olympic Trans Center with T-Nation. Their office was out of Dr. Mike Lee Leahy's office. Oh, yeah. It's right by the OTC. I would train. I would walk down there and go hang out with Charles Pulligan.

And then Tim Patterson and T-Naterson was. upstairs, Dr. Leahy was up, it was the best. So you met the infamous Tim Patterson, right? I did, yeah. See, I never met him. I was like, he was like, I don't know, like Bruce Wayne or something, you know, like, like this recluse and just did his own thing. I never met him. He went nice for me. I would like track, track him down. I love it. I love it. All right. For those that don't know you, though, if you give us a quick rundown on your background, your childhood how you got into lifting, you know, competitive sports, academics, the whole thing. Yeah, man, I'll give you a short version because, you know, when we start talking about Teenation 20 years ago,

that I think that dates all of us a little bit. But yeah, man, I've been doing this. I've been coaching for 26 years now. I got into lifting. It was really like kind of late, I guess, because I went to a small high school, so we didn't have football, wrestling, all of that. I didn't even get really in a weight room until in between my sophomore and junior years. But I love basketball, and I was like, man, like just physically, I was, I wasn't really late to bloom, but every other boy in my class, I promised got held back.

So I spend my whole life thinking, yo, like, why am I so small and weak? And then by the time biology really hits, you know, by the time my junior senior year roll around, I'm like, oh, no, like, I'm okay. Just all these other dudes were like a year and a half ahead of me. So I got in the weight room really just to improve sport, right? I want to be a better basketball player, and I saw the carryover, but, you know, 5-11 dudes with mediocre jump shots aren't playing high-level basketball these days, or back then. So basically, I just took that love of the weight room and took that into college. I declared as an exercise science major, basically didn't know what I wanted to do with my life

after four years because I'd spent zero time actually coaching. You know, the schools back then, I think were very focused on, can you do blood pressure, can you do a body comp? but it wasn't like, you know, like really training people. So it wasn't until I basically declared for a master's program at Ball State, which luckily enough was run by Dr. Kramer and Dr. Newton to like Don Kingpin level guys in the industry. But in between then, I got that first real taste of strengthening industry. I got to work in the weight room at Ball State.

And I was like, yo, this is it. Like I get to merge sports, which I love, get to merge weightlifting and training, which I love. Put those two together. I was like, yo, this is a wrap. Isn't that where Andy? Didn't he go to ball fit too, Doug? That's reduced Ph.D. Yeah, PhD.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, just so many great coaches and athletes that came out of that school. So very blessed. And I was just like so lucky. It was just dumb luck, right? It's not like I was thinking at 22 years old. Like, oh, I need a master's degree. It was just like, yeah, I'm really immature for 21, 22.

I don't know exactly know what I want to do. So it was just like divine intervention, man. I'm around these great people. You know, I just knew. like after that time like this is what I was destined to do I love this it doesn't feel like work and so yeah ever since I've done basically everything in fitness I've worked in home I've worked in the division one setting pro setting high school middle school like you name it I've worked in rehab I've done the one-on-one in-home personal training stuff I've worked with big groups large groups like I've seen it

all and man I think it just gives me a unique perspective on training are you still with your your your facility there. Yeah. Yeah. Bro, I fast, man. I fast, dude. This will be year 18, which is pretty crazy.

A little bit different now because for the first 13, 14 years, we had an employee model where, you know, Bill and I kind of ran everything and we had coaches underneath us. A couple of years ago, I just realized that was taking me further and further away from the coaching side, which I really love. So we kind of inverted the whole thing and flipped it on its head. And so now all the coaches that work out of there are independent

contractors. So they just pay rent. It frees me up. Now I'm not managing people, schedules, filling in all the time. Now I just get to coach. So, you know, a lot of people thought I was crazy when I did it. And I did too. Honestly, for the first year, I was like, yeah, what did I do? Did I just blow this up and really screw up a great thing? But now it's like, no, now I get to invest all my time and energy into the things I'm most passionate about. So it's been a journey, man. What do you, like how many do you coach like one at a time group? or like what's your model personally? Yeah.

I would say private to very small semi-private. So I got a handful of high-level dudes. I'm mostly in basketball now. So, you know, like NBA guys that want privates, I'll do privates. For most of my pros, I'll do small group. It's all customized. So like everybody has their own program, but that's two to four in an hour. And then I do some stuff with like middle and high school age kids.

And those groups, I'll take up to six. So I'll still tweak and customize that. a little bit but you know travel yeah so many of these they just need to train like i'm going to do all the testing i'm going to look at your force plays but you know we need to train for like two years maybe we can really start nerving out on this stuff yeah all that testing for the high school kids is for the parents that need the improvement it's not it's not really to find the big differences i mean there might be a little bit but we all know at that age they just need to get stronger yes yes you got to get something to show the parents look they're getting better and they'll leave

me alone. Yeah. For the business people out there, too. What did you say that again? Sorry, I said, make sure you also claim the inches on height too. Like, I took this middle school or any gain six inches working with me in three years. Oh, yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

One of my friends used to always say it's a really high, it's a high priced lead gen offer. Right? When they come in and, you know, instead of doing like a trial, it's like, hey, we'll do a performance assessment. And you show them the force plates and I love Hawking, don't get me wrong. but it's like you can show them the tech and then they see the improvement over a couple months it's like hey man this is like yeah a great lead gin strategy it gets people in the door and then you just got to show them what you can do yeah like then it just gets the parents to trust you too so they'll leave you alone that's a big one like let me just do what I do and you leave it leave it alone and I promise the kiddell's

going to do as good as he can do yeah I'll take the genetics you put in there and maximize it you just be quiet sit over there you see you're better than I am I don't I don't I don't want to talk genetics because some of them don't want to hear that story i mean you start looking too hard and show on genetics you're like oh wait this is my fault i mean it's your fault let me like you can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit man i mean like yeah that's fair that's fair badly like you go home get your wife look in the mirror it's all your fault so yes so to skew away from turning this into a eugenics conversation yeah um i noticed you're rep in the hawkins dynamics shirt i'm also a fan and if, you know, then it's a decent force plate.

Yeah. Do you look at different metrics on the force plate from your high schoolers compared to your college and then your pro? Or is it still RSI vertical jump? Like what are the things you like to really track? Yeah, great question. So I'll look at a lot of the same things. And for nothing else, a lot of times, kind of my filter for a lot of people that come

into my gym is, hey, I can't just take anybody, right? because I am just one person at this point and I'm not really trying to scale per se. So I kind of put this filter of, look, if you want to work with me, that's cool, but you have to have aspirations of playing to your highest ability, right? So if you're a high school kid and you just want to play in high school, that's cool, there's other coaches that I have in the gym that would love to train you. Like if you're in high school, you want to have to, or you want to aspire to play in college. If you're in college, you want to aspire to be a pro.

So what the numbers allow me to do is then, basically create like normative data, right? And then I can compare them. So if you're high school kid and you're like, well, I want to play in college, okay, cool. Here are your numbers now. This is what a college kid looks like. Here's where we have to get you, right?

So it kind of just gives us a path to start working towards. It really takes the guesswork out of it. And you know, you guys are all coaches and you've done this long enough. Like I'd like to think our coach's eye and our intuition is pretty good, but the objectivity is really nice. I love it.

When I can say very, Very clearly, hey, look, this is where I need your jump height to be. This is what I need your RSI to be. This is what I need your breaking peak breaking velocity to be. When I can show you all those numbers, okay, cool. And it also tells us what we have to train, right? So once we get past that year or two of just general training, general physical development, now we can start to be like, okay, what's your movement signature and profile?

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your analysis and optimization plan. Artei isn't about treating symptoms or quick fixes. It's about unlocking your full potential and looking, feeling, and performing at your absolute best physically and mentally when the stakes are the highest. To learn more, visit areteylab.com. That's A-R-E-T-E-E-Lab.com. Now, back to the show. What about the people working in, you know, your guys that are just paying you to train there? Are you like, do you care?

Like, if you got enough money, you can work here, or do you, like, you try to keep the quality up as well? Oh. So this is a great question. So one of the issues that I was worried about, number one, I mean, our space is like 6,000 square feet. So it's a good size space. But what I didn't want is just random gibronies coming in and having a key to my space and

training like one or two hours a week. So really quickly, what I did was I put a minimum on it. So basically, you know, at the time it was like $25 an hour to rent the space. And I just said, you have to train a minimum of $500 a month. right so it's like five hours a week right like if you're a real trainer and you're not doing five hours a week yeah you're not a real trainer at least yeah maybe you're working towards it but you're not there yet and so that was kind of our our litmus test is you got to be a real trainer you got to have a real business if you want to work in here um and so that's kind of how we created that and then i actually

interviewed everybody right so it wasn't just like hey you have a check here's my key yeah no i interviewed everybody now with that being said everybody's a little bit different it, right? You have like the classic I-FAST people that, you know, probably train and think a lot like Bill and I, but we've got a couple ladies in there. It's just, it's ladies' female body com. And they crush it, right? Like, they've got

their thing. But for me, and I'm sure you guys have all been around teams as well. For me, the biggest thing was, there's always been something about IFAST in just like the community, right? And people want to come in there. Everybody gets along

and, you know, the story I always tell is we had like this NFL, he was like a tight end, right? Huge human being 6-4-265. And legitimately one of his favorite people in our gym was this like 105-pound 65-year-old grandma. He like loved her, right? He would give her like the biggest hug. And like that was the community that we had.

And so when I started hiring these trainers, it's like not just are you financially incentivized to want to work and to get better, but are you like the right kind of person? Sure. To work in my gym and my space. And so that's, I think, even though it is different now, right? And it can't not be because it's not like the Mike and Bill show, but the community aspect of it and the culture has always stayed true to kind of what we created early on. That's always been an important piece for me.

That's a good question. We worked so hard to change the culture. Yeah, we talked about that. Yeah, man. And so like that would be the only thing. I would have to guard that. I can't go backwards because it's been three years. like banging my head on the wall to get movement.

You know, it's just little. If it's bad, it's bad. Yeah, right. It's really hard to turn that shit back around. So, yeah, that's why, hey, dude, you know, when I told you, I thought I was crazy. Like, I really did because, you know, we were in a good spot financially. We're making money. Now I flip the whole thing, right?

Well, now we're losing. Right. And, you know, if you're losing money on rent, hey, your guy's not giving you free rent. Right. Well, now that rent, that extra rent is coming out. out of my pocket. My pocket are, and I'm just watching our savings. So finally, you know, I mean, I had had some come to Jesus moments with myself,

but I was like, hey man, you know, we, but we had to get the right people. Like I just wasn't willing to sacrifice the four, like, what was going on inside those four walls by putting the wrong people in there. So it was not easy. If you do sacrifice it. Yeah, sorry. Like, if you do sacrifice it in the short term, though, like, it's going to collapse in the long term. Yeah, you let some short-term money in there, but you destroy the culture.

And again, all the athletes and people that train, though, they don't necessarily know all the details of the business situation. They just know that guy's being a dick and it reflects poorly on you and they don't want to train there anymore and they're out of there. Yes, exactly. Yes. And you guys have all probably been in that environment at some point in your life, whether it's work, whether it's a team somewhere where the energy is bad, that's the last place you want to be. Nope. And I've been in gyms where the energy is bad. it's like dude i can't do it so yeah it was hard but man it was the right decision for sure good for you

you know i understand too as i get older like you want simple and like there's something's so beautiful about simple and like yeah something you can manage for long term as we as are you're older so yeah do you as far as i think i had to go that go ahead you um is it you still do online products and everything as well yeah i was just curious how you like manage your you know your model yeah yeah it's it's it's It's interesting, and I always tell people, like, I did everything backwards, like, literally everything backwards. So normally it's like, hey, become a great trainer, you know, create this massive, impressive training business. Then you start going online.

You're like, that was the model. Well, when I started at T-Nation, I was just like an egghead new stuff or thought I knew stuff, right? And so I did the whole online thing first. It's like, hey, you know, I did have, you know, some success training and coaching and all that, but probably not to be at the T-Nation level at that time. wasn't Charles Polyclan or Ian King, you know, but I'm out there writing alongside those guys. So I kind of had to grow into that. We started the online stuff.

Obviously, Eric and I did really well with that. So we had this, like, massive, like, online presence, right? Because you guys know, like, T-Nation was the place in the early, like, 2000 to 2010. Yeah. Yeah, it was like a monopoly, right? Yeah. So we have that. And then in 2008, then I opened the gym.

You know? So people are always like, oh, what's your income? I'm like, it's like, uh, online, you know, and now it's a lot more 50-50 balance because, you know, the internet is different now. I didn't even know that. Like, yeah, I just remember by, I told you, like, I learned anatomy and physiology from you and Eric this, the H.S tapes. Yeah.

So long ago and like, I remember being young, but what is he talking about? But like, you know, but it, I mean, obviously I finally figured it out, but like, I didn't know that you did that first. That's, yeah. Well, really, though. Got in early. Well, that was the thing, right? Like, I don't really think I knew at the time because it's just like when it's

you, it's just like, this is normal, right? Like, this is the normal progression. And I just remember, you know, Eric and I started dropping this stuff. And I'm like, yo, like, you can actually make a living doing this. And I was shocked. So, yeah, it was fun. Also, when you're young, though, it's just low barrier to entry. You don't need a lot of money.

Yeah. You don't need all this money to buy all this equipment and get a loan from the bank or whatever. Like it's low risk. It's low, it's low financial capital outlay. Like, it's easy to get into it. And if it fails,

like you don't really, you're not like, you're not destroyed. This is like ruin your life. If you don't, if you don't get traction and you go, oh, that didn't work.

And then you go to something else. And you have all the time in the world to do what you need online, which is to, yeah, I create, you know, create content. Like,

you don't have anything else to do. You don't have any clients to coach. So you're like, that's, I mean, gosh. And now you're teaching all the time. So you're learning.

If I look back on that time, so just thinking, oh, 2005 to 08, right? So that's when I'm doing in home. So I'd moved from Fort Wayne, right? I was in this rehab center, wasn't feeling it at all, moved down to Indianapolis. And so now I'm training in-home, right? And have any of you guys ever done in-home training? No. Okay.

Let me tell you what the schedule looks like, right? Like, you think a normal trainer schedule sucks? Now, like, maximize that. because now you're literally driving around going into other people's houses. So the first client I took, when I first moved down here, I had to get up at 3.30 in the morning, right, get showered, eat breakfast, drive to this guy's house. I trained him at 455. So I had a 455, I had a 6, I had a 7, I had at 830.

Then nobody till 1. So, man, I was just going. I was writing. Like, I'm creating content, right? Like, I'm writing scripts for magnificent mobility or inside out. I'm writing articles. Like, you know, then I go train some more clients. Then I'd have a break.

and I'd do more of that. Like, that's all I did. So, yeah, I would only train seven or eight hours a day, but I was working like 15, 16 hours every day. Also, you have kids,

right? Right. The real cheat code, don't have kids. You just have so much more time. But, yeah, I mean,

I just worked my ass off for a really long time to put myself in position to do that. So, wow. When the gym opens, it's the same thing. Were you power the thing at that time as well? yes yes uh not not as not as well obviously and let's just for the record it was never high level right

like there's some real strong dudes on this this show uh i was very mediocre regional level talent at best um but yeah at that time it was a little bit harder just because my schedule was so chaotic right and and let's be honest like looking back sleep was not great uh recovery not great so i work at 15 hours yeah No, yeah, no, it was crazy. So, like, 2000 to 2005, I competed really steadily from, like, 05 to 08 when I was doing the in-home. And then the first couple years of opening the gym, just recovery was not a thing. So then I kind of got back in 2009, 2010, as I kind of stabilized the gym, my schedule wasn't quite so crazy. Then I kind of got back into it.

Yeah. So much. The original big picture topic for the show was how to train hard and stay healthy at the same time. Yeah. Again, to Travis's point from earlier, like, again, a lot of the, a lot of that, of that topic, I really kind of initially learned from, from reading those teenation articles. It was, again, the academic side of it was one thing with then, like the practical application of how to train and how to train well and how to train safely, et cetera.

Like, I really learned a lot of that from, from teenation and from you specifically, you and you and Eric. But anyway, going down that road, like 2010 or so, kind of the end of your powerlifting career, like was your body, you're under recovered, you're probably banged up at that point to some extent. How did you stay healthy back then? And what did you take as far as learnings? And how did you like apply all that to your athletes moving forward? Yeah. I think the thing for me, and part of why I got into like writing, part of why I got into creating content for Teenation is like I was never going to be as strong as like Dave or Louis or Travis. Like I'm watching those

guys. And I went to West Side a handful of times and I'm not going to be able to squat with Chuck Bobo. Like are you kidding me? Like I was a savage. So for me, it was always. trying to spread this. Wait, so not with that attitude. That's right. That's right. I thought you were making a comedy. I was like,

that was the guy that was stronger in you, right, Travis? No? He was not stronger me. He was 100 pounds behind me, but he was close. Yeah. But like, for me it was always about trying to like, how do we thread this needle of?

How do we train really hard? But how do we like move our body most efficiently? Like, that's why Eric and I got along so well is like, hey, man, like there's just certain things. I was seeing with people's alignment or how they were moving. And I'm like, I don't feel like this is the best way to train at a high level and stay healthy. And that was always the thing that's exciting for me. That's why I ended up, you know, doing stuff for elite and like going over and helping some of their lifters, you know, evaluating their lifters and trying to give them stuff.

Because that was always my passion, right? Like I was a biomechanist. That's what my master's degree was in. I just love looking at the human body, looking at how people move, and then trying to find those things like what are the limiting factors here and obviously with so many of those guys it just became a mobility thing right when you're squatting 800 900 1,000 pounds regularly like there's a ton of compression on your body so how do we offset that um i just remember guys coming over and we would do evals on them and again there's normal right like a normal hip should have 40 degrees of internal rotation right and and no athlete that i work with is going to have 40 you know for most of our basketball players if they have 20 we're thrilled right because that's

athletic but still high performing dude i had these guys coming over from elite and they're negative five negative 10 resting like literally their feet are just out like this you know well louis like will squat wide and do this well that's all they could do anyways right like that was their resting posture so that was kind of what i got enamored with and that was my passion in all this was like hey man i might not be the strongest dude but can i help these guys that are really strong get to that next level and so it's merging that idea of hate training at a high level but then how do we keep you mobile enough, you know, to hit depth in a squat? How do we keep you mobile enough to where your hips don't break down in the process?

And so that's kind of where I found my niche. And still to this day, it's changed. It's been soccer and now basketball. But that's kind of where I kind of thread the needle is, hey, man, you're already high performing. How do we keep you healthy enough to keep performing at that highest level? And that's what's fun to me. Yes. If I'd have had you, it'd have been so great.

Right? Yeah, I mean, yeah, my career started in 2005, five, well, by 2006 it was over. It was just like, breaking down and like, it would have been nice to have had a coach just tell me, like, how do I survive this for five more years to really see my potential? Because, you know, I feel, obviously, we all feel this way, but I feel like I left so much on the table because I broke down so quickly. Well, and that was so many of you guys, right? Like, somewhere back here, I've got the, like, elite FTS binder, right? it's like all of Dave, all of Louis stuff, you know, I just read it all the time.

But that was all of those guys, right? And you were there, like that was every guy. It's like you hear about this guy and he's smashing records. And two years later, he's out of this. He's gone. Yeah. Right. Blew a peck, Lewis Patelor tendons.

So I was always just thinking to myself like, man, what could we do to keep these guys healthy? Because they get so strong, so fast, right? And even if you slowed it down just a little, but you could tease it out. Like you said, over three, four, five more years. What kind of numbers could these guys? be hitting it's crazy to think about just having an off season would have been brilliant to just like even ed kone tried to tell us like he tried to tell me he was nice and i'm after his records and he was so nice to me yeah look you really are competing too much he's like try two big meets a year and

then have a big off season and work on some of these weaknesses you have and i should have listened you know but how many times were you competing back then oh my gosh way too much because as soon as i started like as soon as I started breaking records I wanted to show the world. So if I, you know, I wanted to keep showing and showing and showing. Yeah. For example, in 2004, I broke, you know, the, the all-time. I totaled 2410. Then in March, I did 2414.

Then I competed maybe a month after that to qualify for the Mountaineer Cup. Then I did the Mountaineer Cup against, against, Ed. Yeah. Then I did the APF Nationals, and so, and then I did the WPO again. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Just no rest. Oh, yeah.

And then that was all breakdown. By the end of that year, I was a mess. I mean, I mean, but I got strong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, I don't know. That's just what I always think about. And, I mean, Ed was, I mean, I followed and read everything he put out there as much as I could. I mean, he was big on.

He was like, there was like a 12 week just. off season. Yeah. 12 week off season before a 12 week ramp up. Yeah. You know? He was brilliant. And I think of all the things, that was the most, that was the most brilliant

thing he did. Yeah. I should have listened, but I was an idiot. Yeah. Well, yeah. I don't know. I don't think you're an idiot, man. It's just, you don't know, right?

You don't know what you don't know when you're young. That's the problem. I just wanted to show you the world, you know, you start breaking these records. And it's like, I just want to keep doing it. And like, then I want to show that I wasn't just WPO. So I would go do USBF. And then, you know, you know, you know, which I don't regret that.

I'm so glad I did. Right. Like, why did I go to the APF nationals that was pointless, you know, other than just to, you know, go try and break another record, add another weight class. That was being ridiculous. Hindsight's 2020. Yeah, it is.

That's why we coach so we can keep athletes from doing dumb stuff like that, you know. So as I say, none as I do. Yeah, I'm familiar with that version as well. Mike, when you brought up the, you know, start, things are to break down. That's kind of a general thing with all sports. So once athletes are trying to operate, in ranges of motion that they can't get to.

When we say breakdown, what would you call it, be like the leading indicator of like, hey, buddy, maybe the spine isn't meant to help you get the last couple ranges of flexion to get in the LL. You know, like what's what are the things because, you know, there's just things that carry over like, you know, basketball. If the knees going valgus is just as bad as you're squatting 800 pounds, your knee goes valgus. Yeah.

Like you just don't want to do it. Like what are you, what are those leading indicators, the canary in the coal mine to go the Kentucky reference for you to think about. Yeah. So, well, first off, shameless plug, but like, that's where everybody needs a coach, right? You need somebody that's objectively evaluating your movement regularly and preferably not just like a cheerleader, right? Like, there's a time everybody needs a cheerleader at some point in their life, but you need somebody that's like constantly assessing you, right? Like, hey, man, you know, all of a sudden, you know, that little bit of that one degree of lumbar spine

inflection is now three or five. You know, it's like, okay, you know, that's something I need to be watching out for. You know, also, and I'm sure we've all been guilty of this at some point, like just chronically chasing load, you know, like every week. And Travis, I know you're loving the VBT stuff now. That's something I wish was a bigger deal 20 years ago because I think that's one of the big things, right? Like there's a lot of ego involved in all of these strength sports, and rightfully so. But when you're just constantly changing, chasing load, regardless of where your body's at, whether it's mobility-wise, recovery-wise.

Like, we all know there's certain days, like, I shouldn't take this weight, but I'm going to take this weight. Exactly. If I would have just had that. Oh, I know. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just like finding ways to buffer ourselves.

So whether it's having somebody else audit us and assess us, right, and give us that feedback, whether it's having external tools like V's. where you can be more objective about it. Like I think that's one of the big things that I've learned over the years is like when we're young and to different degrees, but we're all kind of emotional. Yeah. Right. And so when you can learn to take the emotion out of it, be a little bit more cerebral,

a little bit more objective. Like if I can look at a number and just be like, yo, I do not have it today. It'd be a lot easier than just saying it like, yo, I'm just being a little bitch. Like I need to get under this weight and bullshit, you know? Like I think we've all had those moments and we might be. in training groups that have vocalized those things for us and pushed us to levels. And that's the hard part, right? Like, you do need an element of that.

There is some days where you've just got to get under it and get after it. But there's also like the macro level big picture of like, hey, man, like let's just live and train another day, man. Right. Exactly. Amen. Travis, back then, were you lifting through pain on a daily basis? Like, like, every day?

Every day. I did something. You looked at the pain, Doug? Oh, my God. Is that thing? I just something. Throw him some of this guy over here. Tell me.

And then like, for example, like, if I would do something, because I was very, the one thing I did was, my nutrition was on point. But if I would do something, let's say that I would go out one weekend and I would go off track and party. Yeah. On Monday, I would, like, my punishment, I would make myself go heavy. That's, I'm double in. up the dumbness like you know like no i know and like it made no sense and i would be so mad that i let

myself slip that i would push myself to go heavy and like so what maybe i maybe i was able to do it but it was not it shouldn't have done it you know yeah i wasn't my body wasn't prepared so what it took for you know because really most of training you should be able to do it you know out like without bringing yourself up really high you know you should keep your what's the word you know you you know you want you just don't want to be you're wrong you're right you should be pretty even kill in training and like save that for competition but i would have to make i would you know bring all the arousal just to make myself do that because i was mad and why it was pointless all i did was set me back even more yeah that's also why you're

just bearing yourself in that recovery hole yeah you know what i mean like you're already under recovered and now you're just buried yourself so now what should have been a day or two is now a week right you know boys they dug like i was gonna say that that's also why you're a good competitor though because you want to just fucking go all the time you're ready to go let's do it yeah yeah it is i just wish i just needed somebody like he said i needed a coach like my to like pull me back all the really really good ones that's what they need the coach for they need somebody to blind them back but chill yeah yeah yeah well um that's uh kind of similar to the second part of my leading question was are you are you training through pain was you know

toward the end of your career when you were when you were very beat up and you you if you had a fault ed's advice or whoever else's advice or had a coach to pull you back like how everyone trains through pain I'm hurt all the fucking time like I did too at five I'm I'm always hurt even these days when I know and when I know better so to speak when how do you know when to train through the pain and how do you know when when to go nope that's that's a bad idea not today switch it up do different exercise go home make make an adjustment how do you make a better decision and when you do when do you do

so in my in my opinion there's a few things you really want to look at you would only look like if i'm able to warm up and that pain goes away then i'm going to keep going you know like you know but and also too like you know where's my fatigue at for the day if i would have had those two those i should have those two primary markers if i would just follow that you know like by looking at maybe like a vertical leap or anything like something to monitor fatigue and see if like if I'm in the hole too much like you know oh 10% from 10% slower than normal maybe chill that day and you know can't I warm up and the pain goes away those would be my two primary markers so yeah just to add to that I do think as you get older and I don't know if you guys have this I have like the I'm feeling good

exercise buckets that I can default to and then I have the yo, I did not sleep enough or doing all the mobility stuff. So I got this subset of exercises where I can train. But let's be honest, it's not like getting after it, but it's like I'm ticking the box up. Hey, I'm doing something. I'm getting my body back. I'm feeling good. So I think as you get older, it would be great if we had this when we were younger, right?

You just feel good a lot more of the time. But I think as you get older, you've got like the almost those two buckets, or at least I do. I do too. Everything's on point. Body's feeling good. Mobility's where I need it. Like everything, all right, this, this bucket is open versus, hey man, super stress. Like right now, a lot going on at work.

More people are coming in the gym. You know, kids are finishing up school this week. It's like, all right, this is not there. I'm going to go to this bucket that I know I can do safely, effectively. I'm not going to make myself worse, right? I feel good when I'm done or feel even better than when I walked in. Like, I think having that approach to training too really helps. And it's something that I wish more young lifters would adopt.

early on because I think it'll save you a lot of stress later on. I think I have three distinct tiers. Like for like lower body, if I'm feeling great, I can do cleans, I can do back squat and deadlift. Yeah. If I'm feeling okay, I can always front squat, you know, for sure. If I'm feeling terrible, I can do belt squat and a lot of isometric holes. Like I can do lung, electromagnetic holes.

I can do like the Cossack squat, hold, you know, like, it. And I'll lead there feeling better. So those would be my three tiers for sure. And that's such a great way to approach it too because, man, how many times have we had clients? I don't know how much training you guys have done or, you know, are currently doing? How many times back in the day do we have clients like, oh, I'm beat up today. I'm not coming in. Like, no, like that's actually the worst thing you can do.

Like, I can make you feel better if you just come in the gym. And I think that's what great coaches do too. It's like, hey, man, if you're in a hole, my job is to put you deeper in that hole. It's like, hey, man, let's figure out some things that you can do safely, effectively to make you feel better. So we get you back in here and back to normal as quickly as possible. Because I promise you sitting around is not the way to do it. No, no. I should have going further and further.

Like, I get tighter and tighter. My back hurts more and more. Yes. Yeah. What has to be the case to send an athlete home in your mind? Okay. I don't know if I'll ever send an athlete. at home, but what, I'll give you some practical examples. Like, some of these, these club level sports

right now are insane. Like absolutely insane. Um, so I mean, I had girls last summer, middle and high school age girls that would play routinely five or six basketball games in two or three days. Right. So I got them Monday. You know, they're cooked. You can tell when they walk in the gym. They are cooked. Um, so we'll, I won't send them home, but what we'll do, we'll do extra foam rolling. right we'll sit there and we'll talk about the weekend you know what's going on how'd you play so we'll tease that out we'll tease out the warm up we're going to do things like backward sled drags right like trabb was saying like isometric holds things to get their tendons feeling good um you know we might just do some arms and apps like we're just going to do some stuff right tick the box but there's there's not

only the physical component but just like the mental psychological component of hey man we're just being human beings, we're having fun. You know, we turn the music up. Again, the culture and the energy are important. So it's rare that I'll just send somebody home. But, man, it's drastically different from, hey, this is like, we're just trying to get you back to something resembling baseline versus, yo, we're getting after it today.

So it's just having those different levels. And then great coaches know when to adapt. I totally agree. You know, like, and Brian Mann used to talk about with VBT, if, you know, if you're more than, if you're 10% slower than normal, you could do maybe some bodybuilding and go home. And like, you know, I would do, now that I think about it, I would do more like what you said, you know, Mike, is like, let's do some foam roll and let's, you know, let's move around, you know, you know, because, you know, the bodybuilding, you know, you get that, that, like, little

endocrine release. Yeah. But it's temporary, you know, it's not like it's going to do anything long term. Like, I would say be better off to do some like backwards sled drags, some isometric holes. Let them leave feeling better. Maybe discuss what happened to put you in this hole. Yeah. See if you can like, you know, learn from this, you know, the whole thing.

And I think, though, with the bodybuilding side, as long as you're picking movements that are kind of naturally helping mobility. Absolutely. Have them do some like, you know, glued ham rays, have them do some just big range of motion stuff. that in of itself, you're right. You're not pushing muscle mass massively instead you're taking the joint through a good range of motion. But it's not neurologically as draining as high strength, much less the high power stuff. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Doing the claim when you feel terrible is a horrible idea. Well, so that's exactly it, right? You think about when most kids or i.e., when we come in the gym, if you're totally smoked, right? Like generally your mobility reflects the way the rest of your

body feels, right? Like, so basically for me, me the litmus test is, hey, I know what this kid's baseline is. How can I get them back to that, hopefully, or at least close to that within the session? Because I know if their mobility feels better, right? If their mobility feels better, that means probably neurologically they're in a better place. Hopefully the recovery process is going to get going. So I kind of use the mobility as like kind of my proxy for, hey, if they're feeling better, now, okay, hopefully by the next time I see this kid, they're going to be in a better spot and we can actually get back to training. Yeah, that's what I'm feeling this week.

I went to Sawnext Summer Strong. So we did the, I did the squat and the deadlift. I'm hurting this week. I've been doing the mobility. I feel better now because I've been doing that. Yeah. Almost back to baseline. I love it.

Yo, when you have athletes that come in with legit recent injuries, what's your kind of normal process for training around actual real injuries? Oh, man. Yeah, that's been interesting because, This is kind of the area where I find myself a lot because if you work with pros, stuff happens, right? Like, I don't care how good you are, fluky stuff happens. So for me, it's always trying to think, well, first off, there's like levels to,

hey, do I just want to maintain fitness? And there's that part of it. And then there's actually, like, rehabbing the affected area. So I got a really good situation here. You know, I've got a PT in-house, Bill, and then his now protege, Eric. So I have them. I've got great soft tissue gal. I've got hyperbaric oxygen. So we've got all the things. That's awesome. Right? Like not necessarily on site, but locally to where we can steer these people. But for me, it's twofold, right? Number one, it's like getting that injured area or joint back to baseline. Right. And then there's also like the, hey, but they still have a rest of a body that we need to train. And that's not just physically, but mentally. And I've talked about mental side of this a couple times now. But I mean, you guys have probably had some sort of. a major injury at some point or something that really sets you back.

The worst part, yeah, it sucks physically, but like the mental side. Right? Because it challenges everything. Like you're used to moving and doing stuff every day. Now you can't do that. You have this identity or this persona. Like, I'm a lifter. I'm an athlete, whatever. Now that's compromised. So for me, it's like, hey, using the gym as a place of positivity, trying to, hey, man, we're going to get this back. We got to do this, this and this. We're going to continue to train. While we do these things, they're going to focus on this specific, it could be your foot, your ankle, your knee, your hip doesn't matter. But trying to kind of marry those two in concert.

And then the final piece for me is trying to help them understand like, hey, I think Brian Carroll wrote with Stu McGill, right? The injury is a gift of injury. Yeah, the gift of injury or, yeah, I don't remember the exact title of it. But I kind of talk about that aspect of it, especially with some of my longer term rehabs. Because, man, I've rehabbed ACLs, Achilles. repairs, you know, like these long, bro, that's a long, arduous road when you're looking at six, nine, 12 months. So we have some discussions of, hey, look, man, like this sucks, but also,

maybe this is the thing that's going to help set you up for the next phase of your career. Right? Like, we're going to get to do all the things and we're going to retrain your body. We're going to redial in all your biomechanics and your movement. So, yeah, it sucks that this happened now. But if this is just the midway of your career and I can extend your career because of this because we're going to rehab you and get you back to 110%. So there's a lot that goes into it, right? But like trying to help them understand, like, we have to keep things moving, right? We have to fix the area and then also seeing that big picture of, yes, in the short term,

this sucks. And yes, the next six, nine or 12 months are going to suck. But hopefully this sets you up for the rest of your career and allows you to continue to play the sports you love at the highest level. I totally agree. So I wonder why, you know, why do you think that, you know, hip internal rotation it's very kind it's not just power listers yeah of late i would say it's and it feels like that it starts with there's a limit of hip internal rotation then there's a back injuries

quickly after that but like yeah why would you say that is it maybe i'm just noticing more now but it feels like it's more common of late so what do you say there so the big thing a lot of times when you start to see that lack of hip internal rotation like that athlete just gets so far forward, right? So, like, their center of gravity, like, in a perfect world, if you go and read, like, the old school anatomy text, right? It's like, ankle, knee, hip, shoulder, back of the ears, is in this straight line and perpendicular to the ground.

Well, every great athlete isn't going to present like that. They're always going to have some degree of forward lean. Right. But you see a lot of athletes. I got basketball guys now. Literally, it looks like they're standing on a ski slope, right? So there's, like, no internal rotation. Well, here's the thing.

So if you don't have hip I are, right? When you sit into that squat, you can't move your hips anymore. something's going to bend, right? And we know because the body is brilliant at what it does. If you don't have, it's not thinking, oh, you don't have hip internal rotation. It just knows, hey, you're telling me to squat. I can't do it at this joint, so I'll find another one. Right.

So then, okay, I can collapse my knees. I can collapse my feet. I can round my back out, right? So that's where it's like, and this is what people don't understand because somebody will be like, oh, well, I've done this forever, and it's never been an issue. I'm like, yeah, that's how it works. You know, it's not an issue until it's an issue. Right.

So it's those little things like that little progressive loss of range of motion over time. And then now you're not distributing that force across your knees and your hips and your back. Now, you know, all that force that should be going through your hips is now going solely through your back. Well, then it's just a matter of time, right? Now it's just kind of slowly wearing down, degenerating. And again, a lot of times you'll hear people. They're like, oh, you know, it wasn't ever an issue until this one workout. I was like, right.

It was an issue that whole time. It just, it was below your threshold. It was below your radar. And you have that big moment. Now you're like, no, now, now it's different. Yes. It's like the misalignment. Oh, sorry, it's like the misalignment on car tires.

Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't matter for the first thousand, but they should have lasted you, 5,000. You burn them out in two. Yes. Pires are drifting like the entire time. Yeah.

Totally great. You know, when I was power lifting, like, you know, obviously, we just, it was more, everybody wanted to be like west side barbell you know and like you see what's stuck doing and you know obviously they're not doing internal right team they're doing bands and chains are going heavy and like yeah like now you know I have after I started doing more and started being more aware of like hip internal rotation like we have very few like all my whether you know we have some power that we have obviously really good weight lifters yeah

But it's been hardly any. I think about like Ryan, I've coached since he was 15. He's never experienced one injury. And he's at, you know, he's at the highest there is. Yeah. Another one, Matt Wanderger, he's been in since he's 10. And he's, like, 26 years old. And I've never won injury at all.

And like, it just, it would have been nice to have, that thought, like, oh, I'm not sissy because I'm doing hip internal or working on it a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The problem was like, and again, not to speak to this, but like you get so specialized and you go get so set in this one groove, right? Like if you squat in a certain position, and you sumo deadlift, you get incredibly strong in that one position. Right. But there's no variability in your system, right? You progressively lose that variability

and that mobility in your system. So I remember, did you know AJ Roberts? Or do you know A.J. Roberts? Of course. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so AJ was probably the best example. Like he came over to us and he was close to a thousand, couldn't get it.

And he was one of the guys we were talking about. Like me and Bill, Evat, I'm like, bro, this guy's sitting at minus 10, hip I are. And so all I told him, look, here's all I want you to do. I'm not going to tell you how to train because your squats like double mine, bro. You know, like you know how to train. You're plenty strong. But I said, here's what I need you to do. I need you to start doing like a consistent mobility routine, right?

I think we gave him one or two resets. I said, I need you to do a consistent. consistent mobility and warm up before you get on the platform, right? Go do all your extra stuff, right? At the end of your workout, all I want you to do is at the end of every lower body day, either do one split stance or one single leg exercise. Like, that was it, right? You can do body weight split squats for all I care,

but you got to do something that's not in this position, right? And he went on, and super cool. I do not take credit for it. He gives me way more credit than I should, but he went on, he broke a thousand pounds. Yeah, right? And I was like, We love it.

Yeah, no. And so I just told him, look, dude, all I did, I gave you some, some variability back in your system, right? I gave you a little bit of mobility back so you can go and train the way you want. And he said, Louis hated it. Louis would bust his balls every day. Like, what are you doing? What are these dumb exercises? You can imagine.

But, hey, man, I was like, hey, dude, that's what you need. Like, you have to do this if you want to stay healthy because that was his thing. He was just running into, you know, my hips hurt, can't really train. Now he's changing his training. He can't train the way that he wants to. So I think that's what you try and do, right? You just try and figure out, hey, how do I give this guy enough of what he needs? Because you guys know.

Like, you know how to get strong. So how do I give you enough of what you need so you can stay healthy and train the way that you're capable of? Like, that's my job. We should all want to move in all the different vectors, you know. So I want to be able to move ladder. We should all want to meet horizontal. We should all want to be, you know, should all want to do some rotation. You know, yes, there's nothing wrong with that.

Yeah, it's not necessarily going to make my squat go up, but it's going to help me squat longer just by moving in all those planes of motion, man. Yeah. I don't know why that's the thing to do. I would have thought the same thing back in the day, but someone were doing that because, you know, you just listen to whatever, you know, yeah, Marbell. So now, my guys, no matter who they are moving all the different planes. I love it. Yeah. All the different vectors.

So I never would ever want to denigrate Louis Simmons. Like, every time you have to meet him is great. But his goal is maximal strength. Absolutely. And so that's not, we're not here for a long time. We're here for a good time. And hence, like Lou is saying that makes perfect sense to me. And at the same time, I will quasi quote him, a pyramid is only as tall as its base.

So if you have a baseline of incredible mobility, I know, I'm sure you guys have worked with ex-gymists, X divers. X people that have just this huge movement capacity. When you focus them on something like an Olympic lift, you focus on something like a power lift. Timodalancing is easy because they're used to having all of that range of motion of those hips. And hence their longevity in those sports is naturally great. Because go figure they start not just with this great base of strength, a la lose analogies, but they start with a great base of mobility and all their joints can move competently through those positions. Hence, you couldn't agree more.

And once again, what's why in my opinion, And Ed Cohn's greatest gift was that, was long as you haven't. You know, he just was able to stay there longer. And of course, yeah, eventually, if you can continue to get better year in and year out without any major injury, which, you know, at the end of it, finally he experienced it. But doggone, he was 20 years deep. Like, sure. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For 20. Damn, two decades. Like, you know.

Okay. Ten foil hat time. You know, different tissue. are only so strong, you know, plain and simple. And I really wonder if guys like Ed and some of the guys that also could be to Westside, like they just got to the limits of what a human skeleton? Sure. Absolutely.

Because I know, MASH, you're a guy. How many of those dudes do you know that broke over 1,000 that also have robot hips? Yeah, all of this. So there's just a certain load you get to in that acetabulum, that for moral head and that is just not meant for that much torque. No, you know, the reason I was so, some of the reasons why I was so strong, It's the same reason why I've got two new hips. You know, you've got those deep hip sockets that lock up right below parallel, you know. And so that's also putting stress on that neck of the femur because it's so deep.

And so like, yeah. So then you got the, you know, you go watch someone lift, like say from China and way lifting. It looks totally different because they don't have that. Crazy bendy hip. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. Yeah.

You are built for like maximal stability. Right. Yeah. Like, hey, like you said, everything's locked up. Hey, man, now let's push. Try this thing around, right? So not here for a long time. That's a good one.

That's a good one. Five years. That's it. Yes, sir. That it is. All right on, fellas, we got a wrap here. Mike, dude, I totally appreciate you coming on the show. I was really looking forward to this.

Great meeting. You're here. Where can people find more? You know, websites and products. And if they're in Indianapolis coming over to the gym? Yeah, come over and hang out at IFAS for a good time. uh robertson training systems.com you can go there free newsletter tons of articles products basically everything if you're on the gram at rob train systems uh probably the two best places

pretty active in both so yeah hope it helps and uh man appreciate you guys having me on this is a blast it doesn't feel like we were on here even 20 minutes man no it's so much fun yeah you bet happy to have you uh coach travis mash mackley dot com he said i he's a good time and a long time But I can. Good time and a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for being on.

Dr. Mike. Yeah. So Mike Lane, PhD on Instagram, and I'm starting an antithesis product called I Slow. So we only lower your peak velocity and increase your 40 time. Yeah. Yeah. We always talked about making T-shirts that say I fast on the front and you slow on the back, right?

Perfect for track too. Come on. Oh, man. Somebody's reading you. A subtle dig. Yeah. Very cool. I'm Doug Larson on Instagram at Douglas E Larson. We are Barbill Strugg, at Barbell underscore Strug. If you want to work at the whole team at Rapid Health Optimization, including Dr. Mike Lane, Coach Travis Mash and Dr. Andy Galpin, you can go to R-T-A-Lab.com. That's A-R-E-T-L-A-B.com. Friends, we'll see you guys next week.