Barbell Shrugged - How to Write a Strength Program: Programing Basics 101 w/ Anders Varner, Doug Larson, and Travis Mash- Barbell Shrugged #469

Episode Date: May 18, 2020

In today’s episode the crew discusses:   Defining goals of specific training blocks  How to build a training cycle Combining olympic lifts and power lifts Periodization and avoiding over training What is the best way to choose accessories Increase weaknesses and make your strengths, stronger Writing your first program And more…   Anders Varner on Instagram   Doug Larson on Instagram   Travis Mash on Instagram   ————————————————   Training Programs to Build Muscle: https://bit.ly/34zcGVw   Nutrition Programs to Lose Fat and Build Muscle: https://bit.ly/3eiW8FF   Nutrition and Training Bundles to Save 67%: https://bit.ly/2yaxQxa   Please Support Our Sponsors   Organifi - Save 20% using code: “Shrugged” at organifi.com/shrugged   Purchase our favorite Protein, PreWOD, PostWOD, and Amino Acids here and use code “Shrugged” to save 20% on your order: https://bit.ly/2K2Qlq4    Garage Gym Equipment and Accessories: https://bit.ly/3b6GZFj Save 5% using the coupon code “Shrugged”   http://pm03.com/shruggedfree to get a free bottle of PM-O3

Struck family, another Monday, another day hanging out with Coach Travis Mash, Douglas E. Larson, and myself. Today we're talking training and getting strong and how you write your very first strength program, which is really rad because this is what we've been doing for our entire lives. We finally get to lay it out on a one-hour show, which feels really good, and I'm excited for you to listen to it. You're going to learn a lot. You're going to learn a ton, actually. If you sit down and take notes, you will actually be able to sit down at the end of the show and write an entire strength program out and feel very confident that you're getting it right. Because I spent a long time in my life not feeling like I was getting it right.

And now you have an entire show that will help you get there. Make sure you get over to barbellshrug.com forward slash store. That's where you can find eBooks, courses, programs, everything that we have. And you can use the coupon code shrugged to save 10%. And do me a favor, get over to iTunes, give us a five-star review,

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So Organifi.com forward slash shrugged. You're going to love it. We will see you after the show. Welcome to Barbell Shrugged. I'm Anders Varner, Doug Larson, Coach Travis Mash. Today on Barbell Shrugged, we're going to be talking about programming basics. Somebody reached out on Instagram the other day asking, what are the best resources to learn how to start programming?

And I was like, man, there's like a million books, there's a million courses, there's a million, but there's only one Barbell Shrugged to provide the best answer in the whole wide world. So what I want to do, I'm going to just kind of walk through the thoughts that we have just as a general template of a person. It's always going to be a very personalized discussion when we talk about programming and how to build an actual strength program just because everybody's their own snowflake and needs to have their own perfect program with all of their imbalances and all of their weaknesses kind of analyzed and assessed.

But what we want to think about at the highest level is just the programming basics for a three and a five day a week program. They're very similar. And then we we can start at the three and then kind of move it out to the five and how we would kind of tailor volume. But when we sit down and have the blank sheet of paper in front of us, Doug, I'll start with you. What are, you know, the idea that we have to incorporate speed and power and strength, accessories, volume, there's, there's a million things that we are thinking about

as we stare at a blank computer screen and we have to go and create this masterpiece. What are the first couple of things that roll through your head and where do you start when you're laying out a program? I mean, this question is always the same. The answer is always it depends because it depends on if you are... How dare you? How dare you? I mean, this question is always the same. The answer is always, it depends because it depends on if you are, how dare you? I know it's actually cliche to say it. So it's,

it's, it's kind of annoying to even hear it, but that's, that's the reality of it is you need to figure out what you're doing and why you're doing it. Like, are you, are you writing workouts for, for group CrossFit classes?

Are you doing programming for a CrossFit team? Are you programming for an individual weightlifter that has you doing programming for a CrossFit team? Are you programming for an individual weightlifter that has a wrist injury? Like it really, it really matters a lot, like who exactly you're programming for and what their specific needs are. And then, you know, how long they have to, to meet those, their demands or their goals or whatever it is, whether it's a competition coming up. You know, if you have an Olympian, like, like has guys he's wanting to go to the olympics he's like okay i'm shooting for 2024 here's their weaknesses and now he has years to to block out training uh versus someone who's like okay i had a guy come to me one time he's like i got an mma fight in two weeks what do i do it's like okay well i'm not gonna be able to do much first of all but second of all okay like there

really there are things that you can do in two weeks to make him just a little bit better and to keep him healthy and whatnot. So the answer, cliche as it is, is it depends. It depends what you're working on, who you're working with, what their experience is, what their injury profile is, how much time they have to train, what other stressors they have in their life, how much sleep they're able to get, et cetera.

Mash, where are you at? You're not allowed to say it depends because we have to create a program for these people. They want to know the things. Put that context out first, but then we can give you the realities. Exactly. Great places to start would be like Proliving's chart is a great place to start it'll give you you know a base on you know intensity total volume uh optimal reps percent so i would start there and then you know there's so many things you need to track but like i would use pro-living chart to build a base

program and then from there the key will be data because it'll change. So like, you know, I would, if I wrote a program for you, Anders, I mean, I would write it. The odds are quickly I would start to learn things about you that I would start to adapt the program to. And so the key would be not so much of what you write, it's what you do after you write it. Like, you know, the changes you make, because really any coach that says he's doing more than an educated guess is completely lying. And there's no zero studies that would back them up on that.

But all you can do is like, here's based on my experience, based on what Prilipin says, based on what Priscianski says, based on what all these, you know, Tudor Bompai says, here's a good program. And then it's going to be the keys, like things you track, like relative intensity, average intensity, total volume, you know, the qualities of strength that you're staying within, strength, speed, speed, strength.

So like key will be ongoing tracking, in my opinion. I love that you just said that because that's one of the biggest places of insecurity for me. I talk to Doug about it all the time when people do my programs. There's like this little twinge of like, I wrote that, but I also want you to know yourself as an athlete where like, if I write it for me or I'm writing it for the masses. I need you to know when the end is and stop versus like really going through it. Cause even if I am following my own program, I'll write eight weeks out. And then it's like on day six, I'm like, ah, too much. I got to back it down on paper. It looks perfect on paper. I'm always pushing myself a little bit too hard.

And then when reality kicks in and life kicks in, you shouldn't do a hundred percent of it. Exactly how it's written. Like it may be too much for some people, maybe too little for some people, but listening to your body and that that's one of the biggest pieces of insecurity that comes along with writing a program for the masses or just that a lot of people are going to be doing because i know that when i write it when i'm following it i know when to stop it took me a long time to learn how to stop but if i don't want people to go and like push way past that, because then it's like, no, I want you to, I don't want you to get hurt. I don't want you to be super burnout, but I can't coach you one-on-one.

This is like kind of a generalized template of where to go. Since we go ahead. I was going to say on that note, you are going to have generalized templates for a lot of this stuff. If you coach a lot of people, then at a minimum, you're going to have a template in your head of kind of how you structure things. Like a lot of times if I don't write a workout for myself, I still – in my head, I have like these categories that I'm hitting. Like for the day, for whatever it is, be like, okay, well, today I'm going to do some type of lower body thing heavy bilateral you know squats or deadlifts you know maybe before that i do some type of limbic movement and then after that i'm going to do some type of like resisting rotation core movement that i'm going

to pair with those things and then then i'm going to go to to you know vertical pressing and horizontal pulling like i all my stuff is categorized in my head where if you have someone who's who's a beginner the categories might be three days a week, total body every day. Where you're doing a bilateral, unilateral for legs. You're doing a press and a pull. And you're doing a core exercise. You're doing some type of like prowler pushes or sprints for conditioning. And you're doing something like that three days a week maybe.

Depending on how much volume you think that person can handle and what their experience is with the exercises will will help you choose you know am i am i doing um just standing vertical jumps with with body weight or am i am i doing you know snatches with you know paired with um you know turkish get-ups that that type of thing it really matters the experience level of the person but i tend to think beginners do really well on like a total body three day a week type structure. Or again, depending on their goals and what they're working on and how much time they have. I actually think doing like a very like tempo driven kind of bodybuilder, bodybuilder friendly type program combined with just like long runs is a very safe way to get beginners into strength conditioning i want to go back what are the what are the big buckets that you look for um when you're putting this like structuring it in your head um the big buckets

well doug yeah well doug was saying even if i'm not following a specific program in my brain i have these big buckets that i'm trying to hit each day um what yeah how do you break that down um well it depends on which level you're talking about what i was referring to mostly when i said it was uh the reason i mentioned bilateral squats and whatever bilateral leg movements like squats and deadlifts versus horizontal pressing was I was really focusing on movement pattern categories. Yeah, you know, I tend I tend to think good, a good happy medium is to think about hitting each major movement pattern and or muscle group, at least at least two days per week, accumulating

on those two days. And again, this, this isn't like set per week, accumulating on those two days. And again, this, this isn't like set in stone. You have to do two days. I just think two days is kind of like the peak of the bell curve. And then you can do one if like you need your super low volume and you can do two or three days a week if you can, if you can tolerate more volume, but like the peak of the bell curve for me is two days a week and you should be accumulating roughly between 10 and 20 sets per week. And that seems to be a good amount of volume per muscle group and per movement pattern where you can, you can build strength. You can, you can put on muscle mass. Uh, you're, you're not likely to overtrain within that range. Your joints are

probably going to hold up. Okay. Which is kind of like why I tend to gravitate toward for myself, um, like a four day a week type structure where I'm just doing upper, lower, upper, lower. And then, you know, maybe on, on the other days a week, maybe I do something more low intensity. Um, I, I might just do some cardio or something. I might, I might just do a mobility or, or something like kind of more yoga. Even though you don't do yoga specifically, I could do something kind of like that like a move like a mobility flow yoga yeah i've always i've always felt the best uh and and also had really good results on a on a four-day-a-week kind of upper lower structure you know like you know like similar to conjugate conjugate is kind of like that's like an upper lower structure you're doing something heavy for

lower body on one of the days something more speed oriented power oriented for lower body on the other day you know the max every day in the dynamic day and then do the same for upper body that type of structure has always worked very well for me i always feel like i'm in great shape i always feel like i i'm excited to go back into the weight room the next day because i'm never too beat up my joints feel good um that that's always worked really well for me personally um it you know i don't apply that to every single athlete that I work with, but, but it's good to have some base knowledge from how your, how your own personal body response to things. Cause like whenever I write workouts,

like I wrote a bunch of workouts in the last couple of weeks since, since all this COVID stuff has kicked up and we decided to write a bunch of more workouts. And so I, I've done a lot of the body weight workouts that I've written just to feel how they feel we have an emom aesthetics program coming out that i've been doing uh you know i've done seven or eight of those workouts i've already made little tweaks to those based on kind of how i feel and how my wife's doing with me too on on how she feels because those workouts are being written for the masses so you don't have any one specific person to to write it for so you kind of test it yourself and go, I think this is probably a good, a good place

to be, you know, middle of the road where most people are going to get results and they're not going to get too beat up. Yeah. I think using like the two terms, like RPE and RIR is super important to, you know, convey your intent to, you know, to the athletes. Like you should like, meaning, um, you know, rate of perceived exertion. You know, when I say a certain percentage of the certain reps, you know, that might be on that day of freaking like a hundred percent relative

intensity, because, you know, for whatever reason, their endocrine system is taint. And so it's good to know to say those things when you're writing it. So they understand what intent they should have. Like it shouldn't kill you, but it should be pretty hard or it should damn kill you which meaning rpe 10 you know or ir i want you to go to failure minus leaving a couple in the tank you know just the the key that the key to programming for the masses is letting them understand your intent for each day that you've programmed.

Yeah, even when you – I've noticed even when we get into like the RPE stuff that there's such a different conversation about training age once you kick into that because like if you've only been lifting two years, you don't really know what hard is. No. Until you've like really sat under the bar in some scary, scary spots and then you go oh that's like 10 i get it i almost died that was really really scary um the hardest part about programming

by the way like i don't know why this popped in my brain just now but like the hardest part about programming is is if you're not there to coach somebody in person where you're watching every set is to how to how to get them to to understand to Travis's point about the intent behind something, get them to understand how to make modifications themselves, which sometimes you don't want athletes making modifications themselves. But if you think about how you train yourself, whenever I write a program or I'm on a program,

I almost always tweak it a little bit depending on how I feel. Like if I walk in the weight room and I'm just totally smashed, like, you know, maybe it's not the best way. It's the best day to do something heavier, faster, whatever it is. You know, maybe I should do just kind of, you know, more tempo oriented volume on that day. Or maybe I show up in that day, like my elbow is just killing me. So I don't want to do a whole lot of rope climbs because my immediate elbow

pain is just blowing up. And how do want to do a whole lot of rope climbs because my medial elbow pain is just blowing up and how to how do you make those those modifications but if they understand the intent behind what they're trying to do yeah then it becomes much easier to make a modification that makes sense totally agree yeah when you talk about i mean so last week i i got in and it's a really strange time for me because I don't, for the first time in a very long time, my goal really isn't to just be super jacked and lift big heavy weights all the time or move them as fast as possible. And it's actually a really interesting moment to have this conversation because I am really focused on just the structural integrity of my joints and muscles. And how do I go about, you know, staying strong,

not beating the crap out of myself, and just focusing on those big buckets and the movement patterns. And I've been doing a lot of just like very simple circuits of 8 to 10, eight to 12 reps, but it's always hinge, squat, push, pull, making sure you're going horizontal and vertical, and then some sort of core training. And it's about a 30 minute, maybe a little bit longer. But I'm kind of smoked at the end. It hurts really bad. But if I think if people can focus on especially in that beginning stage of your very first program or you just started programming for somebody else staying in that like three days three days a week window maybe the five extending it out a little bit but picking those big movements really just understanding progressive overload and

doing the very simple basic thing of, you know, eight to 10 reps, maybe, maybe in the, in something to pick a movement for each of the workouts where you're actually trying to push the weights. Um, but staying in those larger movement patterns, um, it's going to simplify the conversation a lot for you. There's a pretty good study that was, I just saw last week. It was saying like, you know,

people are always worried that they got to do more and more and more volume to get gains. And then, you know, so people are like, well, I might as well just quit completely because if I just do a little bit of something that it won't, I won't see any gains. Anyway, the study was like talking about if people were to basically, if they were to take one movement, like you said, and go to, you know, near failure, like leave two couple reps in the tank, and then a couple of downsets,

they could literally do very moderate volume and still see some gains. I mean, obviously it won't be as much as like someone that's like, you know, Morgan or, you know, some awesome. They're different. Yeah. Yeah, they're different. And like, and they have their circumstances are better. You know, they have all they live for is training. But we have jobs and kids and so much more going on that we need to do the minimum. I think that's such a hard lesson for people to learn.

So it applies to it's not just writing a strength training program, right? It's like you write this eight, 12 week program out and then going back and self editing. Okay. What is actually needed in here? And it's always significantly less. I mean, whether you're writing an article, it's kind of like anytime somebody asks, like, how, how do you start writing? You go,

well, you write and then you just go back and read and take all the extra shit out. And you have a nice, concise, very simplified thought process that is now on paper. And it's very simple. The hard part is being able to educate yourself on like where, what really is needed and what are the things that you're going to be getting

rid of? Because everybody writing a whole bunch of crap onto a piece of paper and crushing whatever client or yourself really isn't the problem the problem is being able to go back and edit out all the unnecessary stuff before you before you give it to somebody um but to get into like an actual i guess the specifics if somebody's you know trying to say for the ones on challenge or just crossfit and now they're looking at um you know they have to start programming olympic lifting they're looking at four four weeks out eight weeks out um how do you break down or like, what is the thought process behind breaking down Olympic lifting movements, volume on the speed and kind of the more athletic side?

I mean, the key is, is making sure that you cover all the different qualities of strength. Well, let me, let me say this in the first couple of years, it's super easy. And like, what I would do is give the athlete like moderate dosage i would never do maximum i would not go if it's first two years of training i wouldn't go past three days a week at all and i would only focus on you know getting the person's absolute absolute strength up and once that after two years of training and the absolute strength is up to a decent level then you could do what i'm about to tell you, which is like, you know, understanding the different qualities of strength, whether they be, you know, like, you know, absolute strength, and then there's going to be stress, speed,

speed, strength, starting strength, oh, accelerated strength, I forgot that. And a cool thing that an easy way to understand what I'm talking about is if you Google like a velocity based training, regardless of you do velocity based, it doesn't matter. But if you, there's some cool articles by Brian man where he really breaks down all the different qualities and then you'll start to understand, well, I don't always need to be an X quality. I need to make sure that I am in there's good ways of testing yourself to see like, where do I suck?

And then you can focus on that quality and you don't have to beat yourself up so much. But in a much more simple term, here's what Brian Mann told. We did a roundtable two weeks ago with Stronger Experts. And he said this is that based on the latest studies, that you can never go wrong by having one day focused. It's so funny because what I'm about to tell you is something that we've all heard for a long time from Louie, but to have one day where you're really focused on velocity, speed, and one day where you're going pretty heavy. And so he said that worked

way better than someone who just did like, who stayed in like a strength training, going heavy all the time. It was way dramatic, whether it be in results of 1 was way dramatic whether it be in results of 1rm or whether it be in results of speed it was uh completely around the across the board a better model i've always been like it's like a basis of physics like forces mass times acceleration you have one day you're focusing on mass heavy weights and you have one day you're focusing focusing on acceleration which you're picking a moderately heavy weight and you're moving as fast as possible. He did say though, for the first two years, you know, I said earlier, like for the first two years, if you get your absolute strength higher,

so does everything else. But then it stops and then you have to focus on the different qualities. That was actually exactly what I was going to say. Cause I was thinking as you were talking about like some of the original man, when I was 13 to shit until crossfit showed up even like when i was doing hang clean and press i never talked about speed and i never that was just what was developed while playing sports right so transitioning into olympic lifting wasn't that difficult there was very hard parts of it. Um, but the understanding of the athleticism and the speed and moving around an external object, all of that stuff

was kind of like built through playing sports. But I, I wonder how long, um, is, is kind of like that sweet spot for really just focusing on getting just as big and strong as possible before it's really, you have to kind of enter into at least like understanding power cleans. Cause man, when you're 16 years old, yes, being fast is important, but you're growing, right? It's time to load up and just get as strong as freaking possible. Oh, I totally agree. I would focus on like, you know, it's time to load up and just get as strong as freaking possible. I totally agree.

I would focus on what Louie would call the repetition method and just getting your neuromuscular system used to the movement and getting really a lot better at the movement. And with that will come getting stronger because you become more efficient. And with that will also come hyper-speed because you're slowly increasing volume. Yeah. DeFranco's old program, you're slowly increasing volume. So. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen DeFranco's old program, Westside for skinny bastards. I have.

Oh, I have not. Really? It's like super old school. I haven't seen it in, in five, 10. That's genius. And, uh, but it, but it's great. I mean, it's basically, basically conjugate, except he kind of tosses out the dynamic effort stuff and says like, beginners don't need dynamic effort they need volume so it's like he does he does his heavy day and then instead of doing speed day he just does regular hypertrophy volume day i agree i thought that was such a great switch

for beginners i think louis would agree he would agree that you know he's used to training people who are not beginners they're already pretty darn good the minute they walk in his doors yeah i think he would tell you that for the first couple years focus on repetition and not necessarily like speed because yeah some guy comes in your gym and he's just lanky skinny he's like you know six foot 170 pounds like he he a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle he needs volume and he just needs to grow bigger muscles and then he can worry about speed and and raw strength right like that all that stuff will come with getting simply just getting bigger muscle take a guy who's 170 and six foot and you you build him up to being 210 he's just going to be stronger no matter how

you train him at the end of the day yeah there's only a couple ways that we can affect you know hypertrophy and that's either or getting stronger hypertrophy and that's either, or getting stronger in general. And that's either going to be add muscle, which is hypertrophy and then two, getting more efficient at the movement. Other than that, there's not a whole lot we can do because you can't change, you know, the way that your tendons, where they originate and where they attach, there's nothing you can do about that, but you can do something about adding muscle. You can get more efficient at the movement. So I think hypertv is a big one that people should really you know start to understand so for the friend who the person who asked understanding albertov would be a big thing to start with if you want to learn to program for yourself yeah and that's

where the majority of the information programming is going to be focused. If you just Google programming, a lot of it, actually, Andy talks about this a lot, where a lot of people's knowledge about programming, whether they know it or not, is marinated in the obvious choice of choosing to program for hypertrophy. It's like, they don't, they don't even think about it. The fact that that's the case, but if you're training a sprinter who doesn't need to get any bigger, uh, if you're training a weightlifter who doesn't need to get any bigger, if you're training a soccer player who doesn't want to get any bigger, well, they, all those people are going to have all these other needs through their training for, for conditioning and muscular endurance and speed and whatever else that is not necessarily hypertrophy driven. And so you don't need to follow the principles of bodybuilding, the WIDA principles, hypertrophy, whatever. Whatever the scientific principles of strength training are specifically tailored to hypertrophy,

they don't necessarily apply to all these other situations. Yeah, that's true. And depending upon who you're actually training, Mash, you made this point and popped into my brain of like, when you walk into a 24-hour fitness or a globo gym or whatever it is, the reason it's so easy to spot beginners is because they don't have that like mind-muscle connection. They don't understand how to actually move.

And that, depending upon who kind of like our audience is typically already found a barbell, has typically already had at least one coach in whether it's CrossFit gym or personal training or something along those lines that has made them interested in getting a lot stronger. But if you're training somebody and you're really focused on that kind of like very beginner niche just doing reps and getting people to sit underneath the barbell and i mean even in this there's specific movements now that i feel like i'm still learning how to do really well like when i sit get in the garage and i'm doing rdls for for high reps or and i feel my back tighten up or something

along those lines. I'm like the ability, like a single leg deadlift. I feel like I've been doing those for 20 years and I still don't really, I can always play with movements and like learn how to move better and just doing the movement and feeling how a muscle lengthens, contracts, is a massive piece of just being able to get people stronger. I mean, just get them doing specific movements. And then once they look like they've gotten to a place where it looks good and they know what it's going to feel like, change it up a little bit and get a different demand. That's why I love what Doug said about beginners doing total body every day, you know, three days a week because they need the frequency too. It was – Glenn Finlay did an awesome study when he was at Kansas and he took some mice and he put – both groups of mice did the exact same volume.

It was like, you know know like pulling something on a little on a little wheel or whatever and so the uh the mice who did the volume every day who did you know they broke it down over like five days a week and then there was mice who did it like two or three days a week same volume the ones who did it more they were not only do they get stronger but there was more hypertrophy as well yeah you know frequency is a big is a big part of things too it's like our bodies just adapt you know it's like because of homeostasis no one you know more constantly putting a stimulus on the body it will adapt quicker than if we do it once a week and then we don't for six days.

I made an Instagram post about this. People got mad at me. I want you to know they got really mad at me. But I basically made – it was like – People get mad at you a lot, which blows me away. 60% joke of like when you're in your 20s, I think you should overtrain every single day. Because at some point, you're not overtraining.

You're just on a high volume because you've got too much testosterone in your body. And you're in your warrior stage. Like, get up and get after it. Stop worrying about all the bullshit and all this science and all this other stuff. Just go freaking squat because you got free testosterone in your body right now that you need to use for building muscle so go squat so stop worrying about all the books stop where just grow a pair sit under the bar and go i would say between uh 18 and 21 i would get after it yeah i would say that's the value in like finding where the line is too. Yeah. Cause tomorrow when you're 22 years old,

that's not the line anymore because you slept, you might've had sex that night and felt even more gangster. And then you ate as much as you possibly could. And guess what? You just push that line out a little bit further. I would definitely say that's exactly. I had a bunch of social virtue coaching going on. Like, oh, that's not right. The pet.

When you put the pet on the paper and I took the course, I was like, shut up. Stop it. Stop it. Go squat more. You're 22. That's where timing the bar would have helped people. Understanding it, doing it yourself. You have to do.

Understanding science is one thing. doing it to yourself is another. And then three coaching others and like seeing lots of different results that you need all three to really be, in my opinion, a great coach. You know, if you just have the book knowledge that you're super limited, if you just have, you know, well, I did this, congratulations, you are an anomaly have you know well i did this congratulations you're an anomaly you know but but i did this i have the knowledge and i've done this with hundreds thousands of people and here are the results now you're a good coach and then you start then you can start to give me your opinion other than when other than that you can save it i'm not listening to you yo uh another

general tempo that i was sitting here thinking about uh is as far as a single training session goes i i tend to think about the the big buckets not movement patterns this time but more uh qualities that i'm that i'm looking to um looking to improve so i tend to think the first thing to work out after warm-up and all that is speed work and then power and then strength and then hypertrophy and then conditioning it's kind of like my big five buckets for the day and depending who you are and what your goals are you know you might completely throw out a category but in my mind it's still there we just we just we just skipped it but it's always a part of the template you know maybe maybe you're a person maybe you're a water polo player and, and you

don't really, you're not really focusing on speed for whatever reason. So you skip the speed category, maybe you skip the power category and you're just doing strength, hypertrophy and conditioning, right? Or maybe, maybe you're a sprinter and all you're doing is, is speed, power, strength, very little hypertrophy and, and maybe even very little conditioning so there are those five categories are always there whether whether you use all of them in equal in equal proportions or radically unequal proportions is is totally up to the athlete and what their current needs are and where they are in their training block well you're going to use speed regardless because you might it might be a slow speed because no matter what like velocity is a part of things because it's good it's a part of what makes a certain rep that rep you know maybe it's

super slow there's still speed involved a speed like yeah you're talking about intent right intending to move a heavy weight fast it's fast would in this example be under the strength category because yeah that's like the unspoken part here is that you should always be trying when you're doing speed power or strength you should always be trying to move as fast as possible whether you're going fast or not right exactly so you're still going to use like you said those qualities you know so yeah whether you want to whether you don't you are right what when i think speed in this case i'm i'm thinking about actually moving something fast you know are you are you throwing something are you running a

full speed sprint are you doing are you doing plyos that that's like in the speed category and then power i tend to think about power as being you're moving something moderately heavy between 30 and in like 80 percent of your of your max you know that's doing that's doing most of your like power cleans power snatches weighted jumps jump squats, hex bar deadlift jumps, things like that, more power-oriented. And then strength stuff is, to me, kind of 80%, 85% and above. Yeah, 30% to 80%, that's funny. Force velocity curve. That's right.

I like where you get that from, exactly. Sorry, go ahead. Oh, no, I was actually going to ask you a question of how often do you find yourself switching back and forth on those two templates? Because in a way, I didn't even realize that I switch back and forth very frequently. When you lay those two out, I'm like, oh, I do that all the time. That's like my, and then you lay the next one out. I'm like, yeah, I do that all the time as well.

How often do you think you switch back and forth from like a movement pattern block to a speed power hypertrophy conditioning block oh no they're they're the same you put them all together yeah the movement patterns are interwoven into into the category into the okay um training yeah um goals i feel like i understand what you're saying i just don't want people to think that they're very separate ways of thinking so here's the way to think about so say just to make a totally hypothetical workout um starting starting at the speed phase so you know say you run you run a bunch of 20 yard sprints you run five or ten of them you know with full full full rest

you're moving full speed you're not getting tired you're training to be as fast as possible which means you need to be rested so you run your sprints and then now you're in the weight room and you do you do some power snatches and then you do heavy cleaning jerks which i'd still put you know heavy clean jerks is kind of like in between the the power and the and the strength but it's not truly raw strength so i'll put it in the power category for now. And then now you've ran sprints and you've done Olympic stuff. So you've done some stuff with your legs already. That counts as volume for your legs.

And so, again, depending on what your needs are and what the goals of your training are, et cetera, you can move on from your Olympic stuff to some strength something. In this case, we'll say that you're just going to do, um, you're just going to do heavy front squats. You know, you're doing five sets of doubles on, on front squats. And so that, that was your bilateral bilateral leg movement. Um, you may not, you may not need to do any single leg work. You may not need to do any more leg work at all, again, depending on what your goals are. So like the single leg work category, maybe we'll maybe we'll nix that for for this conversation and then for hypertrophy maybe maybe you're doing just a vertical press and a horizontal pull maybe do a little bit of

assistance work is kind of is still in that hypertrophy category or the volume category and then after that maybe or maybe not you do some conditioning maybe you do some um some prowler sprints or kind of like a strongman medley or maybe just go do some conditioning maybe you do some um some prowler sprints or kind of like a strongman medley um or maybe just go for a 10 minute 10 minute not for time jog depending again depending on what your goals are so the movement pattern is going to be interwoven into that if you use that as one example where i did a bilateral squat and some other leg movements with the olympic stuff and then i did a vertical press and a horizontal pull. Well, next time I come back, I want to do like a heavy hinge.

Maybe I do a heavy deadlift. And then I'm going to do the opposite of the pressing and pulling. If I did vertical pressing and horizontal pulling, then I'll, I'll switch it up and I'll do horizontal pressing and vertical pulling. Well, you can, I mean,

even the Olympic movement could be the hinge, depending on if you do hangs, I mean, or even just doing really, it's a hinge, no matter what you do, but yeah, so you've already really done a hinge. cool thing about doing like say a hang clean you get a hinge you get a squat

You get a lot of bang for your buck. Yeah, like it, you know a hand clean so Yeah, I feel like that model is so the model of speed strength So the model of speed, strength, conditioning, and there's stuff that you can put and insert into there, I think is where 99% of the CrossFit gyms, that is the model that they follow. And I often wonder if that is kind of a piece that typically leads to a lot of the overuse injuries that we see of

like, there isn't just like a circuit training kind of element that shows up where it's like a big hypertrophy block. Like if you walked in and just said, we're going to do, we're just going to go accumulate a bunch of reps today and follow these movement patterns. Like,

which is a little bit more of the first model you laid out, Doug. I think you could probably create a much more like durable athlete um and eliminate a lot of the overused stuff that comes into people that may not have the mobility or understanding to be doing a lot of high rep olympic lifting because in a crossfit gym type setting, snatch and clean and jerk are the ways that people do power. Like all the sprinting and all the running is, is four hundreds and it's around your

city, your, your like neighborhood where you're dodging cars. It's, it's never an all out speed element. It's always a conditioning element. Um, but I think that gym owners or just anybody that's programming and that really could benefit from like understanding the movement pattern side of it and how to transition that and then not getting hung up and having to snatch and clean and jerk as the very first movement that everybody does every single day I like to do personally I like to do a front squat first however I don't go to like absolute exhaustion.

It just helps me warm up. I do much better at the Olympic movements. If I start with a squat, some people like I've even had my weightlifters go front squat. Then they do, you know, like to a, a one RM with eight RP at eight RP, meaning don't go close to failure for a pause in the bottom three seconds. Then you clean. seconds then you clean and then you come back and do volume on the front squat you front squat clean front squat you know you get a pretty awesome response by doing that yeah i like that a lot i've done that before where

you you do something really heavy and then you come back and you're doing snatches and all of a sudden all the snatches feel really light and they feel fantastic. Potentiation is a beautiful thing. I knew that was coming. And then, you know, one thing I'd like to point out too is, before I forget it, I wrote it down, is that I saw a really cool study by Dr. Stone, Mike Stone. Anyone who's in this industry probably knows about him, you know, along with Garhammer.

Your professor was Garhammer, wasn't it? No, no, I've certainly met him before, but he was not my professor. But he did work with some of the guys that I worked with. I worked with Dr. Andy Fry and Dr. Brian Schilling. And I see Fry came up under Stone and did a lot of work with Garhammer. And I forget what Brian did with Garhammer, but he did a bunch of stuff with him too. So I've met those cats, but,

but I did not personally work under them in grad school. So I, I spoke at Wake Forest with Dr. Stone maybe three months ago and it was in a CA clinic and he he's always, if you can like focus and listen, you'll get a lot of awesome nuggets because he's so smart he can go right over your head you know if you don't have a decent background you're gonna be lost but like one of the coolest studies he showed us is that there's a big difference in getting hypertrophy through volume versus getting hypertrophy through uh failure so you know bodybuilders you know will

go to failure and obviously it works they're huge but it's not the same kind of hypertrophy. You know, when they did it with volume, what, uh, what they found was that the fat, the type two fibers, it was a bigger circumference versus when they went to failure, it was type one fibers. So that's something to think about, like, you know, depending on what kind of habit you want to be. So if you want to be a weightlifter going to failure might not be the thing. Maybe going to near failure is a big difference, like leaving one or two reps in reserve. But when you start going to failure, you're probably going to make, you know, some of your type one fibers bigger. That's not necessarily what we want.

So it's definitely something to think about as you choose your ways of getting bigger anyway yeah um doug you mentioned earlier unilateral movements um how do you what how do you think about that stuff in your own training as far as um which ones you're choosing do you just do them because you like them um or just general assessment on yourself when you're, when you're writing programs. Yeah. I'm actually a big fan of, of unilateral stuff and single leg work. We'll talk with lower body just for the moment. You know, I've seen a lower body single leg work categorized many different ways. There's single leg unsupported where you're doing pistols and shrimp squats

and, and you know, The guy's got beautiful ankles. You ever seen that man's ankles? Yeah. They bend like he's never even walked on them. He's like, he's got beautiful ankles mash you ever seen that man's ankles yeah they bend like he's never even walked on them he's like he's got baby ankles they're perfect i look at his ankles i look at my daughter i go hey you can do a pistol no problem let's go that's what doug's ankles look like they they look so perfect that's awesome yeah i'm super lucky that i have great

ankle mobility i totally attribute that to doing gymnastics when I was a kid. Like, in gymnastics, you do a lot of calf stretching and you do a lot of calf raises. You know, like the end of class or practice when I was, you know, six years old or seven years old, ten years old. You know, they'd just be like, go do 500 calf raises. You'd just be over there just bouncing the corner, getting a big stretch and and that was just totally normal uh i think yeah they're usually doing that to get you ready for like the plows involved doing floor routines and and things like that but yeah very lucky that i have mobile ankles because i played ice hockey and they shoved my shit in a boot never moved yeah hockey players basketball players people that tape their ankles a lot like don't move yeah right that was

me so yeah very lucky that i that i have that because i don't have very good um anthropometrics for squatting and and weight lifting i have a short torso and long limbs which means that in order to have a vertical torso and to have a full range of motion i number one have to have a slightly wider stance i got to out just a little bit more but then also um my number one have to have a slightly wider stance. I got to out just a little bit more, but then also, um, my ankles just have to bend further because my knee goes further over my toe because I have long femurs and a relatively short torso. Uh, so back, back to the single leg question though. Um, I like single leg work a lot. I feel like it's, it's actually way underutilized. Uh, it's, it's much more conservative than, than the heavier movements in a variety of ways. You know, if you have, if you have a back that's bothering you, then you don't need to do one or a max deadlifts.

You could do kickstand deadlifts, which is kind of like – it's not even like a full single leg movement. It's like a single leg supported movement where most of your weight, we'll say 60, 40, 70, 30 is on one leg. And so the weight on the bar doesn't have to be as heavy. So the stress on your spine is not as high but you're still getting a pretty good stress on on your legs on your on your hips your hamstrings your glutes quads etc but it's it's keeping you safe in a way but it's also making making those muscles still get some stimulus that's going to cause some amount of growth granted if you're really trying to improve your deadlift max,

and that is your overarching goal, then it's just there's no amount of loading on a single leg movement that's ever going to prepare you for a heavy bilateral movement. If you just do a lot of heavy lunges and split squats, and then you go to try deadlift 600 pounds, well, at some point you you need to test your body and and get your your upper back your lower back you know your your shoulder girl all these things need to be ready to hang on to 600 pounds you can't do it any other way that's

the only the only weak uh part of unilateral squatting would be that the spinal extensors aren't going to get near the work. So if like, if you're training for football, for example, or rugby, you're going to need to do some bilateral work to prepare the torso for the, you know, the impact. Other than that, really like, as far as speed or, you know, jumping, there's a lot of studies that would say that unilateral work is as good. However, because however because you know i don't know if you guys mike boyle and i debated this whole thing and i'm for unilateral squatting i'm just not you know allowing someone to you know say that bilateral is bad that was a silly argument

on his part but like uh there's a cool study lately that came out that said that uh bilateral versus unilateral they were both very good for speed and jumping. However, changing direction, the edge went to bilateral squatting quite a bit. So something, but, but the point of that, what I'm saying is that doing both, you cannot go wrong. I think it was a great way. I know with Ryan Grimsland, he tweaked his back. And so instead of like, just stopping, what we did is we went

completely away from bilateral squatting for our whole cycle and he actually competed at the was it junior nationals last year he won junior nationals having done zero bilateral squatting for the entire it was like 12 16 weeks something like that and did only unilateral and still won and did great set pr yeah i mean the you mentioned boyle like one of the points that he that he i think has there's some definitely some validity behind it is that with bilateral stuff your your limiter oftentimes is your torso and your low back so if you are a person if you say you're a soccer player and you're trying to get maximum development of of your legs for the sport of soccer, where you're not going to be absorbing a lot of forces through your torso and your spine, you're not hitting anybody, you're not lifting anything heavy. You're just putting force into the ground.

Then then there's a much stronger case to be made for doing a lot of single leg work where where now your back isn't the limiter, which means now your leg muscles are the actual limiter. And so you can take them all the way to full fatigue in a way that you, funny to say you can't take your legs to full fatigue doing squatting, but because you certainly can, you can make your legs very strong. But the point I'm trying to make is that if your back is a limiter for some reason, then single leg work is a way to get full stress on your legs in a very conservative environment. I would even say that, you know, with bilateral squatting, eventually most pilaters would agree that when you get to the end of your strength career, it will be your back

and not your legs. I feel like I got to the point where I could pretty much squat any amount of weight with my legs, but my back, my torso couldn't support it. And so, so yeah, so he's got a great point. Yeah. I think, I think it's a longevity thing. I mean, even if you look at Boyle, he used to do all that stuff. And then as he's gotten older and older and older into his career, I mean, now he's in his sixties or however old he is. Um, now he's, you know, just like anyone getting older, you tend to get more conservative as you get older. He's seen a lot of athletes get injured, and he's coaching a large volume of people at a university or wherever it is,

and you want to keep the best players playing. That's a big part of coaching at a high level. You just need to keep the best players on the field, and so doing more conservative training starts to become more and more, more and more valuable. I think. I agree. You know, a huge point to what you said, he actually owns his own like private facility and they, but it's probably the busiest like private facility in the country.

And like literally there was packed. Yeah. There's a bunch of kids running around, learn how to move. Well, it's awesome. 600 every day goes through this facility, which was my point. I'm like, I get it. If I had that amount of volume coming through, I would probably do single legs. I would probably do anything I could to avoid any injuries, you know? And like, if you've got that many people, you know,

you're going to have to have several coaches. And so you're going to have to start to trust more and more people. So then you're going to start choosing exercises that, that meet that criteria. So like, and that was what I was trying to get to him. I get why you do, but like for telling someone like me, that bilateral is dangerous is silly because I've never heard anyone with a bilateral squat.

And then I was like, then I started getting mad. I'm like, well, maybe you can't teach bilateral squad people that that are competing in strength sports like if right like boyle doesn't coach any power lifters or weightlifters right if he did they would have to do bilateral squats he he's coaching a lot of like kind of regular regular everyday sport high school sport athletes yeah they're playing tennis and soccer and baseball and everything else like they a lot of those people just they don't they don't need bilateral work in the exact same way that powerlifters and weightlifters do. Doug to that point when he I mean he'll even admit it when he has an athlete if if he has a hockey player

that shows up to a d1 school and they say, okay, today's combine day and we're all going to squat body weight for max reps to see how strong your legs are. He teaches squatting. Yeah. He teaches it. It's just not the preferred method for him. I would say though, if he had a hockey football or any, you know, someone who's going D1 in those contact sports, that's where I would just say you need to teach bilateral squatting. You need to do something to get your spinal extensors strong because it's a huge gap. Because if I hit you, like if one of your athletes hits like one of my guys, like a Tommy Boyan or a Cade Carney, and they have not done bilateral squatting,

I would wager almost every dime I make, my guy's going to beat your guy. I mean, like he's going to run over you because he's their trucks, and there's no weak spot in their armor, and you'll have left a big kink in the armor. Yeah. Even going back before the boil, one of you guys mentioned how going into the unilateral side, it's just a much safer or feels like a safer option

um when i when i stopped competing in crossfit i went on like an entire year of only doing unilateral movements just because i needed to get my body functioning again where the goal needed to be prioritizing quality movement and balance and not just lifting maximal weight. So it was actually when I really started digging into a lot of Max Schenck stuff. One of our buddies from SoCal was just a super, super strong athletic dude. But he does like a single leg deadlift for five reps at 315. And he's just like a gnarly strong human being.

Doug's rolled with him and done jits with him. And he's one of these people. He wrestled many times. It's obvious that he's strong. Yeah. He's coming on a bull. Yeah, and he does all of the you know he he does bilateral everything but when i started to watch him move like doing single leg deadlifts or pistols or when he's doing handstand work or when it just

any of the like more athletic things and watching his movement i was just like man that is such a massive like weakness in my game and i wrote i would i for probably eight months i only did unilateral stuff unless some people showed up to the gym and they like really wanted to train or something like that um in which i had to show up um but i think it's bottoms up kettlebell press with like half his body weight like a single kettlebell one, bottoms up with like 90 or 100 pounds. Yeah, I mean his whole – I don't even know what to say to that. That's amazing. His whole theory is really just about – not even theory,

just what he practices is just kind of like closing the gap as much as possible between your bilateral 1RM and your unilateral. So if you can press a kettlebell with 200 pounds or the 105, can you bottoms up 100? And how much can you close that gap? In theory, that makes so much sense on so many different levels. It's really hard to practice because then you end up going on an eight-month training program of just unilateral movements because you've already kind of topped out what your your max strength potential is i told in the debate between bio you know the bilateral and unilateral that was my point the biological gap you're talking about yeah like um

the there was one study out there that compared like you know doing unilateral doing a bilateral or doing a workout where he closed the gap the people who had less of a you know bilateral deficit is what it's called or the ones who actually ended up being much better in accelerated speed like so they were faster out of the gate if they had less of a deficit so it's that's brilliant on max and another part i was going to say is like um whether you're doing this is something everyone should know when it comes to programming. No matter what you do, whether you're doing unilateral or whether you're doing bilateral, eventually there's going to be a biological tipping point.

So I've seen people like Boyle's guys get super strong unilateral where they're doing 400 or 500 pounds on one leg. And, like, that's outrageous. And so there comes a point where that becomes dangerous as well and like stuart mcgill is the one who you know before i did my debate with boy i you know i talked to stuart young got his thoughts and that was a big part it's like it doesn't really matter what you do whether you do a deadlift with two legs or squat with two legs or you do a lunge no matter what you do eventually it comes a weight that is too much for your biology. And so then you're going to get hurt. Yeah. And that really comes down to like exercise

selection, right? Like if you just hammer the same thing over and over and over again, without realizing the number of different ways that you can do a bent over row, like I, I'm in a place right now, and this isn't even about me running the mile, but it's probably been the last year where, like, I just don't back squat that much. Like, if I was hanging out with you, I would back squat because I like back squatting with you. But for the 90-plus percent of my training,

front squats feel so much better as a movement pattern. As a general health and upright torso, I don't have to put 365 on the bar to feel like I'm doing something. Like I can sit in the hole and do pause reps and feel like I'm stretching. I'm breathing. There's so many good benefits to doing front squats personally for me. If you had told me that while I was competing, I would have called you a pansy because that's an accessory lift. I would have been like, no way. Are you kidding me? That's just an accessory. So I have a better

catch position in the clean. There's no other reason why I need to do that except can I, can I clean my three RM front squat? So the goal is always, I just need my three RM to be high. So I know mentally I can clean it. And that's just not even remotely the case right now. It's like, I only want to front squat. The mobility is more challenging. I,

I just feel like it's such a better position. So that, that is, it's like, I don't feel that like, yeah. It's the one movement I got it. like if i can have one movement to do the rest of my life i'm going to go front squat yeah i get front squat every day i have been and it

doesn't hurt me at all yeah i i don't i don't really enjoy the back squat anymore messes my everything everything gets weird i have to lift too much weight for it to feel like I'm doing something. 225 feels like such a good number. 225 is like your 405. Yeah. I mean, it really is relative. It doesn't matter. Yeah, right.

It's like, yeah, you know, like a 400-pound front squat is like, as long as I can do that, I'm strong enough to where I don't feel too weak, you know. Yeah. And that's for me, not compared to anyone else. Like, if I can do 400, I feel like I'm in the game, you know. That's what I want to – I just want to feel in the game as I get older. I don't want to feel like top of the game because then it feels like shit. You know, top of the game is not a beautiful thing.

It's a hard place. It's very interesting, this world you live in, Mr. Mash, because a 400-pound front squat, let me tell you, is a big front squat. That's not normal people front squat weight. But in the circle you live in. You know, one thing is a tiny little part of Western North Carolina, a 400-pound front squat barely gets you in the conversation. Barely gets you in the conversation. And one thing is a tiny little part of, uh, Western North Carolina, a foreigner pound front squad, barely gets you in the conversation.

Barely gets you in the car. Like my athletes like laugh at 400, like even my 16, you know, like Ryan who's just turned about, sorry, but it weighs 148 pounds and he front squats over 400. So I had to be well above frontatted on instagram the other day for i'm just gonna call it 405 and he straight up called you out in the comments about like not not being on your game or something like that and i was like dude he weighs like half of what travis weight 148 pounds everyone everyone talks about morgan and right so morgan's amazing however this is 148 pounds. Everyone talks about Morgan, and rightly so.

Morgan's amazing. However, this is a 148-pound boy in my gym who is incredible as well. To me, I think it's fascinating what he does. He cleaned 315 for a triple the other day. He was 148 pounds. He did more than double body weight for a triple boy that's gnarly most people can't squat double their body weight you know like this boy's cleaning it for a triple he's so fast yeah dude that's so funny i actually this is so not about programming but now that

you've mentioned these two kids um one day they'll be men. We'll have to call them men. Maybe. Dude, Morgan looks like he leaned out. We need to get that man eaten again. He looks. I think he hit puberty is what happened is like, now he's like actually fired up.

Yeah. He's not, he was, he was like, I wouldn't say chubby, but he was like a, you know, thick, thicker kid.

And now he's like, he's turning super muscular. He's starting to get pecs. What are we talking about again? Because now Morgan, you know, Morgan, the 60-year-old freak. And like now, all of a sudden, he's hitting another, you know, incline and he's training. And like, man, he's doing some crazy stuff. Yeah. Just crazy stuff. I love watching him and his mom in the garage they need to put a camera thing ever with him squatting yeah and just do it live

and be awesome i mean if people are watching him doing 605 in front of me it was the coolest thing yeah oh yeah yeah what was louis reaction well he was just talking about like uh how weight in america are we thank you and then he saw a 16 year old boy squat 605 and i i see so i stand corrected i was like louis did you really think i was gonna have a weak athlete that's so good i could see him like walking over be like why don't you give up this stupid olympic lifting stuff and just move here and be a power lifter i told him don't even go there yeah that would be a full-out fight yeah yeah so don't try that that. That's 600 pounds weightlifting style. Like shorts, maybe a belt. Yeah.

Weightlifting shoes. High bar. No wide stance. No low bar. No suit. No. No wraps. Shoulder width stance.

High bar. Buried. Beautiful. At Westside with everybody around because it's the Arnold Classic. I even thought I was like, Morgan, if you miss this, I'm going to kill you. No pressure. Don't make me look bad. I won't be your godfather anymore.

Yeah, you're de-godfathered. That's funny. De-godsoned. Coach Travis Bash, where can they find you? Mastodad.com. I just want to say that was a fun show. I could do this all day, every day. Or go to Instagram, Mashlead Performance.

Doug Larson. You bet. Find me on Instagram at Douglas E. Larson. I'm Anders Varner. At Anders Varner, we're Barbell Shrugged at Barbell underscore Shrugged. Get over to OneTonChallenge.com forward slash join the lifelong pursuit of strength. Snatch, clean, jerk, squat, deadlift, and bench press. 2,000 pounds for you men, 1,200 for you ladies.

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