Barbell Shrugged - Keto for CrossFit: Can It Be Done – And Should It Be Done? — Muscle Maven Radio Episode #25

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, everyone. Welcome to Muscle Maven Radio. I am your host. I'm your girl. I'm your girl host, Ashley Van Houten. Today, we're talking about, well, I guess my favorite subject. One thing you guys may know about me by now is how much I love food and talking about food. It's the best thing in life. Convince me otherwise. And I love all of it. But sometimes it's good to know about the different dietary protocols that may work best for you depending on your specific situation. Unfortunately, my favorite protocol, which doesn't have a trendy name, but it mostly includes cinnamon buns and peanut butter cups, it's not generally the best plan if you want to be healthy and then you want to perform well and you want to look good naked. So it's worth exploring some other avenues, maybe dabbling in

Starting point is 00:00:49 some paleo or maybe incorporating some fasting or carb cycling into your nutrition toolbox when you need it. So today I'm going to talk to somebody who's doing a lot of research on keto for high performing athletes, which leads me to believe that for some people, maybe you really can be keto and do CrossFit and not die. We'll see. After we chat with Rachel Gregory, she's a board-certified nutrition specialist. She's a trainer, a strength and conditioning specialist. She wrote a book called The 21-Day Ketogenic Diet Weight Loss Challenge. She got her master's degree in nutrition and exercise physiology from James Madison University. She has a bachelor's degree in sports medicine from

Starting point is 00:01:29 University of Miami. And she completed the first ever human clinical trial looking at the effects of the ketogenic diet in CrossFit athletes, which was published in the International Journal of Sports and Exercise Medicine. She's worked with a ton of athletes, CrossFit folks, Division I collegiate athletes, WNBA stars, some of the top bodybuilders in the world. And we actually met really recently in Austin at this KetoCon event. We bonded over our shared nerdiness that we both wrote our master's theses about CrossFit. Although, of course, our topics were a little bit different. She was talking keto. I was talking marketing and communications. But anyway, still both nerds, both CrossFit nerds. So we chat about the study, the research that she's done. We talk about when and why it might be beneficial to incorporate a keto diet,

Starting point is 00:02:16 when it may not be beneficial. We talk about all the different types of cycling you can do and some of the biggest reasons why a keto diet fails. So why you maybe have good intentions, but are doing it wrong. And I basically play devil's advocate the whole time because I love me some carbs. I mean, not a lot, but more than none, right? So anyway, it's a great chat. I hope you enjoy it.

Starting point is 00:02:37 I hope you learn a lot. And if you do, as always, please let me know. Post this episode on social media. Tag Shrug Collective. Tag me at The Muscle Maven. Tag Shrug Collective. Tag me at The Muscle Maven. Tag Rachel at Killin' It Keto. And let's have a conversation about it, okay? All right. Real quick, before we start, shout out to ButcherBox for supporting my show and providing me and providing you, if you're smart, with super high-quality meat to support

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Starting point is 00:04:05 code MAVEN to get in on the action. All right. That's that. Here's my interview about keto and CrossFit with the very smart Rachel Gregory. All right. Rachel, had some technology issues, but better late than never. Thank you for being on the podcast. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to chat with you. Yeah, and catch up. So we'll just kind of catch up in real time here because we actually met for the first time at KetoCon in Austin, which is a couple weeks ago now. And we bonded over some Brazilian steak and also the fact that we both did like master's theses or like or research projects on CrossFit right yeah it was when you said that I was like so surprised because I hadn't I haven't heard of anybody else who's done like a research type study on CrossFit so I was like well yeah

Starting point is 00:05:01 it was like such a small world I'm like all right all right, let's go. Let me let me go introduce myself to this stranger. And then it ended up that we had like a fair bit in common, which I guess is probably not that weird, considering we were at a very kind of niche event anyway. But it was cool that yeah, I think like if people actually wanted to nerd out and like go on the internet and, and look for research, post-secondary research, it would probably be you and me and maybe not too many other people. Yep, for sure. I think you're totally right on that. Okay, so before I start drilling you with questions, it would be great if you could just kind of introduce our listeners to who you are and what you're doing. Sure. So I am a board certified nutritionist and a strength conditioning coach and also an athletic trainer. Um, so I got my undergrad in

Starting point is 00:05:53 athletic training and at the university of Miami. And I decided when I was getting it that I was a little bit more interested in nutrition. Um, and so it was a little bit too late to go like the RD route. It was like my junior year of college. So I decided that I was going to pursue my master's degree in nutrition exercise physiology. So that's what I did at James Madison University. And over the past few years, I've kind of put my athletic training on the back burner and focused more on the nutrition side of things. And particularly within the ketogenic diet. And so now I have my own online business, I have programs, and I do consulting with clients focused on a ketogenic approach or lifestyle. And I'm sure we can get into all of that. But

Starting point is 00:06:47 I don't want to keep rambling on too much. Sometimes I get ahead of myself. That's okay. I will. I love for you to ramble. It's better than trying to draw answers out of people on a podcast, which is always painful, but I will. I'll rein it in if you ramble too much. Okay, so first question then from that is, how did you find keto yourself? Sure. So that goes into when I was getting my master's degree, like I said, at James Madison University, I was actually working as an athletic trainer and the program was a two-year program. And so part of the program, we had to do a thesis study. In order to graduate, you had to complete this thesis study. And a lot of my other classmates were also working as

Starting point is 00:07:32 athletic trainers as well. We were graduate assistant athletic trainers. So I'm not sure if you know much about the athletic training world, but it's many, many hours. It takes up a lot of time, especially in grad school and having classes and all that. So a lot of my classmates decided to do studies that were more survey based and not really like a human interaction type thing. And I knew that for me going into these next two years of doing a thesis study, I wanted to really challenge myself. And I knew that I would not, I would just get pretty bored doing like surveys and stuff like that. Um, and so I wanted to just challenge myself. And at that time I also found CrossFit, um, when I went to grad school. And so that's what got me interested in, um, CrossFit. I was

Starting point is 00:08:21 actually doing triathlons in undergrad for the university of Miami. When I got to grad school, I didn't have that time anymore. Like I said, I was working as athletic trainer, taking classes. I came across the CrossFit gym and I was like, I'm just going to try this out. Needed a hard workout, you know, a few times a week. And I started to love it. And then, so when we had to pick our topic for our master's thesis, it was basically you had to pick our topic for our master's thesis. It was basically you had to combine nutrition and exercise because that's what my master's was in. And so I knew that I wanted to look at CrossFit as my population. And so I just needed a nutritional protocol to implement. And at that time, I was pretty paleo-ish. That was like what I was doing at the time. And I somehow came across keto when I was doing some research. And I was just very intrigued by basically everything that had

Starting point is 00:09:15 to do with keto. I had never really, you know, I heard of Atkins before the Atkins diet, of course. And we, you know, we learned a little bit about that, but we never really, you know, learned about, you know, keto in any of the nutrition classes that I took in undergrad as well as in the beginning of my of my master's degree. So I knew that this was something that I would be interested in researching. And so that's what got me introduced to keto was just, you know, going into it with my study. I have a lot of questions about keto for women, keto for athletes, all of this stuff. But did you make a switch to keto personally out of interest? Or were you trying to achieve a goal or improve performance? Or like, were you having issues with sort of the paleo approach that you were using? What, what was your experience personally? Yeah. So when I first came across it,

Starting point is 00:10:10 I was, um, I was, like I said, I was doing more of a paleo approach. So, um, when I wanted, you know, when I wanted to introduce this diet for my study, I knew that I needed to like test it out for myself first. Um, so I had some time. I had a few months to kind of test it on myself. And so, yeah, going into it, it was really just to see, you know, how I reacted to it and, you know, what it did to me, basically. And so going into it, like I said, I really had no idea a lot of the research. I was still doing that at the time. So I was making a lot of mistakes that like looking back on it, I was, you know, not upping

Starting point is 00:10:52 my electrolytes. I was probably I was having like way too low calories for the amount of exercise I was doing. I wasn't doing like tons of exercise, but just for that amount that I was doing with the CrossFit workouts. So going into the study, I kind of had these things in the just for that amount that I was doing with the CrossFit workouts. So going into the study, I kind of had these things in the back of my head that I could relay to the participants so that they didn't really make those mistakes. But yeah, so just going into it, trying it out, I made those mistakes in the beginning. As I started to learn

Starting point is 00:11:19 and start to do it, quote unquote, the right way, even though, you know, there's really no right way. Everybody is their own individual and it changes person to person. But as I started to, you know, start to see the benefits in terms of like my mental focus throughout the day and just my energy levels, I used to like when I was when I was doing more of a paleo approach and a higher carb approach, I did notice switching over to keto after probably a few weeks. I started to notice that mental focus and not having that kind of energy dip in the afternoon. I feel like usually I would be waking up early and then I would have to take a nap under my desk in the afternoon. And I noticed that started to go away.

Starting point is 00:12:03 I noticed that my energy was away. I noticed that my energies were just, my energy was just more stable throughout the day. And I wasn't like feeling like I needed to eat all the time. That's one thing that I feel like a lot of people and a lot of, you know, people in, in the health and fitness world, it's like you have to eat every three hours and all of that. And so you're kind of, you kind of get, I guess the word is obsessed with food and like when your next meal is and all that. And so that kind of went away for me. And that was a big relief, just having that. And then, you know, going into the CrossFit piece of it, I like I said, I was only doing CrossFit a few days, you know, like four days a week. And I wasn't really like I wasn't an elite CrossFit a few days, you know, like four days a week. Um, and I wasn't really like, I wasn't

Starting point is 00:12:45 an elite CrossFit athlete. I was just like everybody else who was going to the CrossFit gym. I was just your average Joe, um, looking to get a hard, you know, hour workout in and have the community vibe there. And so, um, yeah, that's, I'm rambling on. No, no, that's okay. Yeah. Um, all right. So I have so many questions. I'm trying to figure out how to organize it best. But one thing you touched on, you said, you know, there's no one right way to do keto or any diet for that matter. But I think it is fair to say that there are wrong ways. There are ways that like looking at it, you're like, no, that's not no matter who you are. That's not how you're going to achieve the goals you're setting out to achieve by using a keto approach, right? And I feel like

Starting point is 00:13:28 one of them, and you can, you know more about this, you can correct me if I'm wrong. And I'm speaking more probably from a women's perspective, but I think this probably goes across the board is, I think one of the things that people focus on a bit more with keto is how much fat they can eat rather like placing an emphasis on all the fat that they should be adding into their diet rather than focusing more on sort of eliminating the carbs and like and and making sure they have appropriate amounts of healthy fat and protein like i know a lot of women one of the things that can that can mess us up and this happened to me personally as like a smaller female, if I'm doing this for maybe fat loss, and as well as performance and cognitive health, you know, I'm like thinking about all this fat that I'm adding, and I'm like dumping maybe like macadamia nuts onto my salad, and I'm eating like handfuls of nuts throughout the day, I'm eating like a whole avocado with every meal or I'm doing all of these things or eating much fattier cuts of meat which is always the way I'm going to want to do it instead of maybe focusing on the other

Starting point is 00:14:35 elements of it and you can still you can overeat calorie wise you can these like the the carbs that'll sneak in with nuts and things like that you're not paying attention to because you're like well i just gotta get this fat i gotta get this fat do you feel like that's uh an obstacle that people hit a lot or is that just me no yeah i think you're totally right and i think that comes with a lot of the misinformation that is um out there and that's been kind of circulating and the things that people, you know, they hear keto and they're like, oh, I can eat all the fat I want. You know, it's just circulating out there and you go on Google and you see all these things. And so I personally have learned over the years and just with myself and clients that I've worked with taking a higher, you know, protein approach to the quote unquote keto diet, like a keto diet is, you know,

Starting point is 00:15:26 by definition, it's low carb, moderate protein, high fat. But this definition came out of the ketogenic diet being used as a treatment for epilepsy, whereas the people who are being treated for epilepsy needed to have very high levels of ketones circulating to treat this disease. And the only way to have higher ketones was to increase their fat intake. Obviously, at that time, there was no exogenous ketones or anything like that. But that was a very specific population of people. And I mean, it still is, there is people who are using ketogenic diet, of course, for disease prevention, but your average person who hears the ketogenic diet, and they see it, you know, combined with weight loss or fat loss, that is what's pulling them

Starting point is 00:16:15 into it. And that is what is for most people, they try keto, because they are looking to lose some body fat and looking to, you know, lose some weight. And so if you go into that, if you go into it with the mindset of, oh, I need to increase all of my fat and get as much fat as I can, you're gonna, you're not going to see the results you want, because you're doing it in the way that it was supposed to be done for preventing for treating a specific disease. So if you're coming to it for fat loss, which is most what most people are, most of my clients are, like you said, I think that the main focus like needs to be protein and also reducing your carbs. And then the fat is what fills in the rest, right? Because I mean, we can go all into

Starting point is 00:16:59 this. But would you say then that probably one of the key elements of this is really determining what the ideal appropriate amount of protein is for any individual? Because that's really the building block. Like you figure out how much protein does this person need to maintain or build body, lean body mass, whatever it is they want to do, stay healthy, be able to do to perform the way they want to perform. And then once you have that, then you fill in the other two components, right? Yeah, exactly. That's exactly the approach I take because I think that, and there was also this period of time, like a few years ago, there was this huge rage in like gluconeogenesis, which is the, you know, people thought that if you ate too much protein, it was going to turn into

Starting point is 00:17:45 glucose and kick you out of ketosis and all. And like, there were some memes going around like protein equals chocolate cake or something like that. I don't know if you ever saw that. No, but it sounds like something I would probably try to latch on to. Yeah. And, and it's not like anybody's fault that, that these things have circulated. Cause if you think about it, like keto and the research, there's research there, but the research is still, there's still so little on it in terms of like your average population. So there's tons of research on, you know, obese people. And there's tons of research on, you know, epilepsy, but there's not that much research

Starting point is 00:18:21 on like the in-between, you know, those people who are maybe not necessarily obese, but they're overweight and they're looking to lose a little bit of fat and so or body fat and weight loss. So, yeah, I think protein, especially, you know, just for women, for everybody, I think protein is the obviously the essential thing, like you said, focus on that and then, you know, figure out what your carb limit is for you. Um, and then fill fat, fill the rest in with fat, with healthy fats. Can you, without giving away all of your hard work and secrets, can you talk a little bit about how you go about determining what is the appropriate amount of protein for an individual. Because I, you know, depending on who you talk to, there are some sort of primal keto people who are saying that we're vastly overeating protein, and we should basically just be eating mostly fat and kind of like have a little bit of animal protein on the side. And then there are people who are very much about a protein forward, we should all be having much more protein than we generally are

Starting point is 00:19:25 and old people, especially, and you should be, you know, at least a gram per pound of body weight. Like what, where do you kind of fall on that spectrum? Yeah. So I would say I've probably fall on the higher protein approach just because I've, that's what I've seen work for a lot of my clients and myself. And I just, I think that like, like what you said, a gram per pound of body weight, I think that if you're at a, if you're not too overweight, then that is a good measurement. But if you are, you know, obese or severely overweight, then that's going to definitely be way too much protein. So at that point, the easiest kind of thing that I say is that, you know, if you're at, you know, if you're 10 to 20 pounds away from your

Starting point is 00:20:08 goal weight, then you can use, you know, one gram per pound of body weight. But if you're over that level, then you would use, you would look at lean body mass, or you would use one gram per pound of your goal body weight as your protein intake. And that's just a very, very simplified way. Ideally, you would want to find your lean body mass by getting your body fat percentage done. And then you would want to support that lean body mass with the amount of protein that you're consuming. So yes, I am definitely on the kind of in the people who say, you know, focus on protein first, and then let and then let the other things fall where they may. But then at the same time, I do think that there is some research that, you know,

Starting point is 00:20:52 you can not necessarily have too much protein, but there can be times where having a break from higher protein can be beneficial. So yeah, that's kind of my take on it. Okay. So is there, are there circumstances where you want to cycle protein and what would those circumstances be? So I would say this kind of goes along like for, in terms of for what I do is I cycle it in terms of having like a fast. So whenever I'm doing, and I don't, like, for example, doing a little bit of a longer fast, you're giving your body a break from everything. So when I say longer, I mean, like 24, 48, 72 hour fast, and I don't do this that often, probably once or twice a year. And so that's when I give myself a break from, you know, that higher protein, just because I'm giving myself a break from everything.

Starting point is 00:21:51 So it kind of, you know, kills two birds with one stone or whatever the saying is. So that's kind of the time that I focus on giving myself a break from protein. But then I haven't, you know, I haven't really gone into maybe like one day a week lower protein. I haven't really experimented with that myself. Um, but I do know people who do that and they do, you know, like one day where it's more of a plant-based approach and they, you know, lower their protein. Um, but personally, I don't, I haven't seen, you know, results for myself in terms of that. So I can't really speak to that. Okay.

Starting point is 00:22:27 So once we've figured out what the protein amount is, and then the next step is kind of talking about this carb tolerance. Basically, it's like how much carbs can you get away with and still be, I guess, either producing ketones or in ketosis or whatever it is for your specific goal that you want to hit. And I will say as an aside, that I think without like going all over the place that I think for like the vast majority of people who think they're, they're keto, and they aren't, but really what they're doing is cutting out a bunch of shitty carbs, they're going to feel better, and it's going to be good for them. And who cares? Who cares if you're like

Starting point is 00:23:04 testing your blood, and it's not like you're not producing all the ketones. Like if you, if the general gist of this is that you end up eating less crappy, simple sugars and you feel better and your energy's better, who really cares if you're in ketosis, right? But anyway, that's just my side rant. I'm sure you agree with that, right? Oh yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Okay. But then if you are trying to, for whatever reason, be officially in ketosis or if you just want to switch over to a more obvious fat burning mode so that you're more metabolically flexible, all of these things, how do you go about figuring out what that carb threshold is for you?

Starting point is 00:23:42 Yeah. So I definitely think like what you said, figuring out what the main goal is first is very important. So whether it is, you know, fat loss or weight loss, or if it is, you know, boosting your cognitive potential and your mental focus, or if it is treating some type of disease, like you need to figure out what the primary goal is at that time that you're, you know, embarking on this. And then also that being said, um, you know, carbs are activity dependent. So it depends on how much activity slash how much you're, you're working out and all of that, because that will determine

Starting point is 00:24:16 how many carbs you're actually using for energy and how many you're storing. And we can go into all that. But in general, I mean, when I, when I did my study, when I didn't know anything about like keto, really, I was just getting into it. The research said, you know, start with 50 grams of total carbs, um, and then, you know, titrate from there. And so I always recommend, you know, if you're completely new to keto, you've never done it before. You've never been, um quote unquote, in ketosis for a long extended period of time, and you've never had your body utilizing ketones as a fuel source, then you do want to start off probably lower in that 50 gram range. I always say total carbs

Starting point is 00:24:59 because I just don't like to play around with like the gray area of net carbs. I just think it gets a little bit confusing with the packaged foods and all of that. So I always recommend, you know, start with 50 grams total carbs. And then as you start to get into ketosis, which most people should add 50 grams of total carbs if they're, you know, tracking and all of that. I've never had anybody not really start to produce ketones at that level. And then once you get past that, and once you've been on that for a while, everybody's different, like I said, it's activity dependent, then your body is starting to produce these ketones and

Starting point is 00:25:34 starting to learn how to use the ketones for fuel. So like you said, the longer you're, I definitely think that there's a time period that you have to, you know, stick with it pretty strict for, you know, a few weeks, maybe a month, maybe a little bit more than that. It really depends where you're coming from in order for your body to start producing ketones, but at the same time start utilizing them for energy. And then once you kind of get what we call fat adapted, that's when you can start to play around with a little bit more and then seeing where your body's at and I think that over time your body becomes as you are you know maybe you're not in ketosis for forever like 24-7 but you're kind of going in and out of ketosis you're maybe you're in it for a few days you're out of it for one day or whatever or maybe you are in it for you know

Starting point is 00:26:23 continuing 24-7 your body starts to utilize those ketones for fuel and knows how to use them. And so, um, you become more efficient. And then when you, you know, say go out of ketosis or eat carbs, it's easier for you to, um, get back into it. And it's also your body is, um, much more adapt to using fat and ketones as a fuel source versus, um, before you ever even tried ketosis or, you know, your average American, they don't even like your average American diet. They've never even, you know, been able to utilize ketones or fat for fuel. So their body's not used to that. So with all that being said, I just think that it, you know, initially you have to be strict. And then, um, after that, as you get more adapted, it's all, you know, initially you have to be strict. And then, um, after that, as you get more adapted,

Starting point is 00:27:05 it's all, you know, dependent on the individual activity, dependent, all of that. That's when you can start to introduce, um, a little bit more carbs and see how your body does with that. And I would just say like, for example, this is just, this is an extreme example, but it's an example of me. Like I've been quote unquote keto adapted for over four years now. And I'm not saying I've been in ketosis for four years. I've been in and unquote, keto adapted for over four years now. And I'm not saying I've been in ketosis for four years. I've been in and out of ketosis, but I've trained my body to know how to get back into ketosis quickly and how to use fat and ketones efficiently. And so just an example of today, like yesterday for myself, I'm taking a little bit more of

Starting point is 00:27:43 a targeted keto, a targeted approach right now. And I'm doing carb ups. And so yesterday, this is an example, I had 130 grams of carbs yesterday, woke up this morning was feeling good, didn't, you know, wasn't feeling hungry. And I tested, I don't usually test, but I was feeling very focused. And, and I could just tell that, like, I was in this, you know, focused and good state. And I was like, okay, I just want to test my ketones just to see where I'm at. And I tested and I was at 1.0. So it's like I had 130 grams of carbs less than, you know, 12 hours or less than 24 hours.

Starting point is 00:28:17 And I'm at 1.0 blood ketones, which means I'm in technically quote unquote in ketosis. But that's an extreme example of myself. But that just kind of gives you a, uh, an idea of, of what I just rambled on. I think that there, there is, as you said, sort of at the beginning of our talk, there's a wide range of what a keto diet looks like to different people. And to give some people out there who are listening hope that are like, I kind of want to try keto, but like the idea of 30 grams of carbs makes me super sad. Cause I don't blame you. Um, like I, I interviewed, um, uh, UFC champ TJ Dillashaw and he was doing a fight camp and he was trying to do sort of like a more whole foods keto approach, like a low carb approach. And if anybody knows about, um, MMA fighters, like their

Starting point is 00:29:02 training is so intense, like just long hours of super, super high intensity training. So if anybody could get away with carbs, it's these people, right? And they're, they're always lean. They're always like just super athletic. And he was saying like he was testing and knowing that he was in ketosis and he was crushing like three to 400 grams of carbs a day because he was fat adapted at some point. He was super lean and he was just burning through those carbs like crazy. Now, most of us can't get anywhere close to that, but it's worth noting that like somebody might need 20 grams of carbs to be in ketosis and somebody might be able to get away with 300.

Starting point is 00:29:43 So I think that's kind of a good point for people to just kind of have a little bit of hope. But, okay, so that brings me to my next question. So we figured out protein. We figured out carbs. You've said basically you're filling in the rest with healthy fat. Does that, though, essentially mean that ultimately what we're looking at here is a macro game and we're tracking macros? Like, do you then have to calculate with all these other calculations what an individual's general

Starting point is 00:30:11 caloric intake should be depending on who they are and their goals and their body size and all of that stuff? Because how else would you know what to fill in for the rest? Yeah, I mean, I think it really comes down to what the person's goals are. So if their goals are, you know, the first, the main goal is fat loss. You have to kind of see what the first thing is you have to see what your maintenance intake is and, you know, what you can maintain your weight in and your weight at with what you're consuming. And so the only really way to know that is to, you know, track your macros. And I'm not saying like, you have to track them for, you know, the rest of your life or anything like that. But my clients who have

Starting point is 00:30:56 the best success, they, you know, either they track their track their macros and determine that or they use different, you know, things like the handful diet and things like that, just to be able to track, you don't necessarily have to track your macros, but track your food intake somehow, just to have a food journal or something like that, because you do have to find, you know, maintenance, and then you can titrate from there. So it really depends on what the goal is. And yeah, so I would say that finding that is, is, you know, number one, because that's how you determine what you're filling the rest of your, you know, daily energy, your daily calories in with. But if, you know, if you can find those two things, the carbs and the protein, and then just, you know, eat fat to satiety, that that's another way. But most of us, it's hard to do that. Because our, you know, most people these days, especially with all of the hyper palatable foods that are out there,

Starting point is 00:31:51 it's really hard to know even what satiety is. So it's, that's kind of like a, yeah, like a game there, you have to, you have to play and you have to determine that. But at the same time, just also going back to like the study I did the parameters of my study the main thing was just keeping them at 50 grams like going into study what I essentially gave the participants in the keto group I said you know keep your carbs under a total of 50 grams and eat the rest ad libitum, which just means till you are satiated. So a lot of them, like there was no requirements to track their macros. What we did do is the every two weeks, we had them fill out a food journal for three days of the week, just to see what they were consuming. But that being said, it was, you know, eat to satiety. And so it really just depends, I guess you could say.

Starting point is 00:32:47 Okay. Yeah, I wish I knew what eat to satiety means. Like that would make my life a lot easier. That's another reason why I've had issues with keto in the past that I didn't have with carnivore, which is also part of the conversation we were having around our Brazilian steakhouse dinner the other day and why I find carnivore personally easier as a, as a low carb reset than keto, but we can go down that rabbit hole if we want to. But I would love for you to just kind of, um, talk us through the study that you did a little bit more, like

Starting point is 00:33:15 what kind of athletes are we talking about? How long did the study go? Was it men and women? What kind of sports were they doing? Like talk us through the actual like keto CrossFit research that you did. Sure. So the study was there was a total of 32 participants and it was over a six-week period. And so basically these participants, and I always like to preface this with people who are listening who've never been to a CrossFit class, they've never been in a CrossFit class, they've never been in a CrossFit gym. A lot of people see CrossFit from the outside looking in. They think of the elite CrossFit athletes, the people who are at the CrossFit games on TV. They have six-pack abs or

Starting point is 00:33:58 eight-pack abs, and they're just these crazy human beings that are like doing all this crazy stuff. So those are your elite, like elite CrossFit athletes. But if you go in an average CrossFit gym, like the average CrossFit gym, and there's thousands of CrossFit gyms around the world, 90 to 95% of those people are your average Joe just looking to get a hard workout in there. They love the community vibe. Some of them don't even pick up a barbell. They use kettlebells and they scale all this stuff. So that's always what I like to preface this. My study was in non elite CrossFit athletes. So your average Joe people who were, you know, going to CrossFit at least four times a week. But they weren't, you know, they

Starting point is 00:34:44 weren't going to the, going to regionals, I guess you could say, or going to the CrossFit games. Um, so I always preface it with that, but the, um, the study was six weeks long and what we did is we did pre-testing and post-testing measurements. And so, or, uh, parameters. And so, um, going into the study, we basically divided the 30, uh, 32 32 people randomly into two groups. One group was the keto group, and one group was just their standard American diet. And so at the beginning of the study, we tested their body composition. So we gave them all DEXA scans.

Starting point is 00:35:17 We got their body fat percentages, their lean body mass, all of that. We also tested performance. So we did a benchmark CrossFit workout. And then we did also some power testing. So vertical jump and standing long jump. And so those are the pre-test measurements. And then going through the study, we had the ketogenic group. Before we went into the study, like I said, we gave them parameters of what a ketogenic diet is and told them, okay, you know, keep your carbs under 50 grams. And like I mentioned before, because I had gone through it myself and made a lot of the mistakes myself, I was able to say, okay, make sure you're getting enough salt throughout your day. Like make sure you're on top of your electrolytes and also make sure you're eating enough for, you know.

Starting point is 00:36:06 Just to interrupt one more time so yeah and forgive me if i just missed this but was it men only or men and women oh sorry it was men and women okay so was that split down the middle there was um there was more women than men and what about uh age range were they all kind of within the same age range yeah they were about oh i, oh, I don't know the exact, I'd have to look, but it was between probably 20 and 50, I think. Yeah, 20 to 50, 20 to 40. I mean, I can look in the Sunday, I haven't pulled it up in a while. But so yeah, it was a split between men and women, more women than men. Um, and it was six weeks. So over the six weeks period, six week period,

Starting point is 00:36:49 um, the, uh, we tested their, uh, urine ketones every week. So we didn't have the capacity or the funding to test blood ketones at that time. And there wasn't like, this was over four years ago. So there wasn't, you know, um, the devices that are out there now that they're, you know, more common. But we did test their urine ketones using a machine in our lab. So instead of just, you know, peeing on the stick and getting a color, we actually could test the amount of ketones they were producing in their urine. So it actually spit us out like a number. So we tested or I tested every week, all of the participants, ketones to make sure that the keto group was producing ketones, and that the control group was not. So we tested everybody just to make sure that for some reason, the control group wasn't,

Starting point is 00:37:36 you know, trying to follow keto or anything like that. That's the glamorous part of the research, right? The testing the urine? Yep, that was my Friday nights for six weeks. We had, because we had them, you know, peeing a cup in the CrossFit gym and put it in the refrigerator. And then I would go every Friday and collect all the cups and bring them back to the lab. Yeah, it was great. And then also we had them, like I said, fill out every two weeks, all the participants would fill out a food log. So two weekdays and one weekend, just so we could, um, gather that data. And we put that all into a food database.

Starting point is 00:38:11 Um, and it basically just spit out, um, kind of an overall macros and all of that. And then at the end of the study, we retested everything the same as pre-test. Um, and what we found is that over the six week period, the ketogenic diet group was able to lose a significant amount of body fat while maintaining their lean body mass and then also increasing their performance to the same degree as the control group. And what about the control group lean body mass or weight loss or anything? It just stayed the same? So, yeah, there was no significant difference.

Starting point is 00:38:49 Their lean body mass stayed pretty much the same. It increased slightly but not significantly. And their weight actually increased slightly, not significantly. But it was pretty much the same, yeah. And was the general reporting from the keto group positive for everybody, men and women? I feel good. I'm enjoying the diet, everything. What kind of feedback, personal anecdotal feedback were you getting? Yeah. So going into the study also, I failed to mention this. So the study was looking more at the hypothesis was that these participants could lose body fat while maintaining their performance.

Starting point is 00:39:28 So that was the hypothesis because all of these participants, like that was kind of their goal. Like their goal, like I said, not to go to the CrossFit Games, not to, you know, crazy increase their performance. The goal was actually to, you know, decrease the body fat and lose some weight. And so that was the hypothesis. And they ended up actually increasing their performance to the same degree as the control group. But going into it, you know, I told especially the keto group, I just told them, you know, the first week or two, you're not going to feel great, because you're just, your body's not used to having this low of carb intake. So it's going to take an adjustment time. And for some people, you know, it takes only a few days for some people takes a few weeks for some people

Starting point is 00:40:08 takes a few months. I mean, it really just depends, but the general feedback was that exact thing. Like the first week was hard, like the workouts were hard. Um, the energy was a little bit lower, but then once they got into the second week, um, it started to get a little bit better. And as they continued, continued, there was just a lot of good feedback in terms of being able to, their workouts were still not like amazing, but they were, you know, they were getting progressively better every single day. And they're like, we talked a little bit about the mental focus and the energy levels throughout the day and the recovery and all of that. There's positives for that.

Starting point is 00:40:49 And then also just, like I said, being able, one of the big mistakes that a lot of people make going into keto and then also upping their exercise at the same time, or even just maintain their exercise is they forget about electrolytes. And that was one of the biggest things that I just made sure that people, you know, had, they were salting their food and, and, you know, salting everything. So, um, and I actually had like a Himalayan sea salt grinder at the gym to like use in your water and stuff. So, so I, I kind of hate to like harp on this. Cause I feel like I talk about it all the time whenever I'm talking about keto, but I also feel like other people don't talk about it at all. So I want to do that. And that is the difference between men and women and their experiences with keto and similarly with fasting. And I personally haven't had the best experiences with keto. I have a pretty decent time fasting when I do intermittent fasting. I do an occasional 24 hour fast. I've tried something a little bit longer

Starting point is 00:41:40 and haven't had a problem. And I think that that is largely due to the fact that I am pretty metabolically flexible, and I'm generally not a super high carb person. But I, you hear kind of time and again from different groups, or and I know everyone has their own special interests, but that women, you know, our hormones are more complicated. Our relationship to body fat, just physiologically is different. And it seems like in many cases, women can have a harder time with keto or with fasting. And I don't even know if that's backed up by science, or if again, that's anecdotal. But I do know that we have a more complicated kind of hormonal system. And, and it can be a little bit more work to kind of figure out what those kind of like macros or diet plan works best for us.

Starting point is 00:42:27 So is there anything that you found in your research or in your work that would lead you to believe that things need to be approached a little bit differently in general for male or female athletes? Yeah, I think for definitely for male and females, just in general, there is definitely some disconnect. And for women, it can be for any type of, you know, diet protocol or anything that there's, it's just a little bit more complicated, because like you said, our hormones are more complicated than than male hormones. And so what I've learned, you know, over the years for myself and working with women is that it is more difficult. And there is, there is times where, you know, keto is probably not the best approach. But it also really just depends on this is where it comes back to the individual. And so if you are a woman who's severely overweight, and you're suffering maybe from PCOS, keto could be an amazing thing for you. If you're someone if you're a woman who is, you know, smaller and you know, you, you aren't suffering from any of these things and you are, you're looking to do keto, um, just for like some more mental, the mental benefits of it, or just don't like, you know, lifestyle benefits of it, then you might have to take a little bit more, a little bit

Starting point is 00:43:41 different of approach. And maybe you're not strict. Maybe you do keto and then you, you know, introduce carb ups or you introduce a cyclical approach. So I definitely think that for women, it is more complicated and I'm actually coming out with a keto for women program myself because I've like over the years and even just the past two years, I've just noticed so many different things for myself from what I thought I knew and what I've learned and kind of with different clients that I've worked with. And so I'm actually putting all this into like a Keto for Women course that is going to address a lot of the issues that I've seen with clients over the years. And it takes more of an approach to those women who maybe have done keto for a while and they aren't obese or severely overweight, but they're at that kind of like, oh, I have, you know, the last 10 pounds to lose, quote unquote, and they're just

Starting point is 00:44:38 stuck at this plateau. And so that's where, you know, reintroducing carbs or reintroducing different methods of things like this can help, you know, you know, reintroducing carbs or reintroducing different methods of things like this can help, you know, you know, get past that plateau or just even help re-regulate hormones again after that. So yeah, I totally agree with what you, exactly what you said. When, when's your program coming out? So it was supposed to come out in August, but I've just, there's just so many things that I'm like, that I want to talk about. So it's going to be, it's going to be a course,

Starting point is 00:45:12 more of a course than a program, like a video course. And, um, so I'm not sure yet, hopefully, um, by the end of the year. Um, but there's just so many different things that I want to address and, and all of that, but yeah, I can relate to that. You've's just so many different things that I want to address and all of that. But yeah, I can relate to that. You've got like, so many, it's like a good thing, right? You have so much, you're learning and so many projects, and you're so excited. And it's like, there's only so many hours in the day to get the stuff put together. So. So what I and I know, again, the answer to these things are always it depends, it's up to the individual, it has to be very personalized, all of this stuff. But do you have any kind of general words of wisdom for the differences in a keto

Starting point is 00:45:52 approach for an athlete and by athlete i mean not just somebody who kind of like works out decently three three days a week like that that's a normal person to me i'm talking about somebody who's like training specifically for something maybe not elite, but definitely like more than a recreational exerciser, right? So that's one category, like the athlete training for something who's got much higher than average energy expenditure and recovery needs and all of that stuff, versus the, again, quote, unquote, average person Like you just, you go to an office every day for work. You work out a few times a week. You, you know, maybe need to work on some other lifestyle factors like better sleep.

Starting point is 00:46:31 Maybe you're stressed out, whatever. You want to do keto so that you have less reliance on carbs, that you have better energy. Maybe you lose a couple pounds. What would be sort of the major key differences in approach for those two groups? Yeah, so I would say it just it all comes back to, like you said, the the activity dependence of carbs. So the more active you are, the more you're putting yourself through these exercise stressors, probably the more the higher carbs you would need. And because you're using those because you're using those. You're using those for energy. So if you are, you know, let's take a CrossFit athlete, for example,

Starting point is 00:47:11 like an elite CrossFit athlete, one that's going to regionals. I personally think that if they could, you know, in the off-season, take a keto approach in terms of, you know of going keto for at least a month just to get their body into that state and be able to understand how to utilize fat and ketones as fuel and just their body recognizing that. Then once they get back into season and back into their heavy competitive season, they would obviously, of course, need to be utilizing carbs because it's such a glycolytic sport. But at the same time, their body is if if it is like a longer workout or recovery or multiple workouts a day, or just, you know, maybe it's a 30 minute,

Starting point is 00:47:58 one of those 30 minute crazy workouts, their body is going to be able to use fat, fat for fuel a little bit easier than they would if they never had, you know, been in a ketogenic state, if that makes sense. I'm, I'm betraying this a little bit. Um, there's, okay. Um, so I think it's just, it's, that was just one example, but it's just so activity dependent, but at the same time, I think that everybody needs to, if you've never been in a state of ketosis, like the only way to get into it and to, you know, become fat adapted is to do it for, you know, a little while first before introducing maybe kind of hump and get your body used to that, then, you know, moving forward, you can start to introduce carbs and all that for a more elite athlete, I would say. What are your thoughts in general on carb cycling for ketogenic athletes? And just to preface that, you know, I've, I've known or

Starting point is 00:49:05 worked with or spoken to a lot of, um, like for example, maybe military members who have, um, who basically train like athletes and also have this additional sort of like travel issue where they don't want to have to eat every two hours because maybe they're out on a mission or they're traveling overseas or they're doing things and they want to be able to have great cognition and great energy without having to eat carbs every two hours and and other athletes and people like that who who do keto and and have a lot of success with it until they don't so like for example these like big kind of strong dudes in the military and they get on keto so that they don't for all the reasons i just explained and they love it and then maybe like six months in, they're like, all right,

Starting point is 00:49:48 I'm feeling lethargic. I'm kind of losing some muscle now. Like I'm not really feeling this. And they don't know exactly how to balance it. Like they understand the benefits of keto, but they're like, I'm kind of feeling like maybe I should be having some carbs now. Like how do you figure out what that refeed looks like? Because it seems like, again, should be having some carbs now. Like, how do you figure out what that, that refeed looks like? Because it seems like, again, except for certain specific individuals who are addressing very specific health challenges, chronic disease, or Alzheimer's, or epilepsy, and things like that, most of us probably should have some kind of carb days or refeeds or whatever at some point. So how do we decide when that is that we're not undoing all the work that we're doing with keto?

Starting point is 00:50:28 How often? What those look like? Like, how do we approach that? Yeah. So I think, I mean, the simplest way to approach it, I think, is when you do get to that, you know, get to that stage, maybe it's not even maybe six months is that I mean, that's a pretty long time. Maybe it's a little bit before that, but just even introducing one, like one day, which is a refeed and, and also bringing, cause a lot of people don't think about this too. Like when you are, you know, doing keto pretty strict, like there is that appetite suppressant, um, effect to it. So you probably, for a lot of people, they are consuming less calories in general, which can also equate to the lethargia and all of that. So if you, so I think that with those people, they need a refeed for both calories, but also yes, probably

Starting point is 00:51:12 a carb refeed. So I would say the easiest way to approach it is to just take one day and do a carb refeed where you're basically upping your carbs and decreasing your fat. And that's like this and see how you feel it's all going to be dependent on you know seeing how you feel and and implementing it strategically rather than saying oh i think i need a carb up today and then like two days later it's like oh you know i think i need a carb up you need to like plan it out and have a plan going into it so you say okay i'm doing one carb refeed a week for the next four weeks, and I'm going to track how I feel those four weeks. Maybe I'll track my ketones. If that's something that I

Starting point is 00:51:52 want to track, I'll track my energy levels, my performance in the gym, you tracking all these parameters, because if you're not keeping track of them, then you're kind of just throwing yourself into this, just trying to see what works and you're never going to be able to change things. So, um, that's the simplest thing, or you can take the approach of if you are, you know, a little bit more of a performance athlete, you can take the approach of trying to a targeted approach where you, you know, increase your carbs, a Perry workout. So pre and post workout, again, tracking all of these things, making sure that you, um, are taking note of how you're feeling and, and all these different, um, uh, biofeedback parameters that, that you need to

Starting point is 00:52:31 really see what's going on. Um, so I think that's one big mistake that a lot of people make is that they don't, um, they don't keep track of these things. So it's like, okay, well, I don't even know if that works because I don't know, like, I don't, I don't have last week's, you know, how I felt during my performance or what my ketones were if I'm tracking that. So I think, yeah, I mean, tracking is key for anybody because it don't do all the work and all the experimentation and, and, you know, all the research, if you aren't going to be strategic and thoughtful about how you're implementing it and seeing what works. I mean, what's the point otherwise? So yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Another question I have is about the electrolytes, because this is something I hear a lot, like people talk about the keto flu,

Starting point is 00:53:14 or they just talk about feeling like shit when they're doing keto for a little while. And one of the big reasons would be if you're switching from a standard diet to something like this with no processed food and no carbs, you're not getting very much salt. And so this is something I hear over and over again is like, watch your electrolytes, make sure you're getting salt. And I know that this happens with people who go from standard diets, even to like whole foods, paleo diets, too, because when you aren't eating processed food, you're getting a lot less salt. And we could have a whole separate conversation about how salt has been totally sort of misconstrued and in the mainstream health world about how salt is bad for you and salt will raise your blood pressure and give you all kinds of

Starting point is 00:53:56 problems. But there's more to electrolytes than just salt, right? Like is it is that if we it's great to say like, get yourself a good kind of like sea salt or something and sprinkle that liberally on everything you eat. But what else can you do to make sure that you're getting like the proper electrolytes and making sure that you're like, hydrated, and you've got everything that you need? Yeah, so I think like exactly what you said, like making sure you're having a high quality sea salt or high quality salt that contains not just the sodium, but the other minerals. That's just the number one thing. And a lot of people, you know, for me and, and personally, and for people I've worked with,

Starting point is 00:54:35 just increasing that high quality salt will help to alleviate some of those symptoms because when your body is, when you're taking in that salt, it's also helping your body hold on to those other minerals as well. So those magnesium and the other electrolytes, potassium, all of that. So rather than dumping those, the sodium is the salt intake, the high quality salt intake that you're consuming is helping your body to hold on to those as well. So you might not necessarily need, you know, an electrolyte supplement, which is, there's a lot of those on the market, but it also depends on the person and also your activity level too. Because if you're,

Starting point is 00:55:15 you know, super active and you're sweating a lot, like you're going to be, um, you're going to be releasing a lot of those minerals as well. So it So that just depends. But yes, I think that having the high quality salt is super important and having one that has all of them, has minerals in it that's not just sodium is what people are missing. And I think that's also the whole, you know, sodium salt thing that's going on is that the high blood pressure and all that is coming from highly, like those studies are done with highly processed salt that is just sodium and it's stripped of all its other minerals. And it's again, highly processed. And so I think there's the science on that needs to be like completely redone, in my opinion, because it's just like not even accurate. Yeah, I think it is starting to to kind of change little bit with the, again, the nerds like us that do this research.

Starting point is 00:56:10 Like there's a book called The Salt Fix that I think is really good. And there's some resources out there. But I think it's also worth just to people who have been ingrained for so long that like salt's bad. Don't eat too much salt. All this stuff. We're, again, talking about processed salt that is almost unnoticed in so many processed food. Like there's salt in like candy bars and shit. Like there's salt everywhere. So when you cut the processed food out, you are losing probably 90% of the salt that you would normally be ingesting. And then also, it's very hard to overdo added salt. Like if you're eating

Starting point is 00:56:47 steak and avocado and eggs and salads every day, just throwing that out there, most people aren't going to be pouring salt because it's not palatable, right? So I think that people can worry less about, that's like one less thing for you to worry about. If you're eating unprocessed food and you are salting your food to taste you are not overdoing it salt wise like i think that's a pretty fair statement to say for most people yeah i agree 100 all right so one last question before we kind of like start to to wrap it up is and i mean i know obviously that there's there's lots of research being done continuing to be done about the ketogenic diet and all of the great things that it can do for a lot of different people. And obviously, you know, you sort of have a bias here because this is kind of the work that you're doing.

Starting point is 00:57:36 But just like a devil's advocate kind of question for people who are like CrossFitters and that type of fitness, because that's who a lot of people who are listening to this show have that kind of background. It's like powerlifting, CrossFit, like kind of really high intensity sport. Perhaps you've proven that you can absolutely do CrossFit with keto, but should you and do you have to? And I guess sort of like the kind of question that I have is I just feel like being in this world, we're so quick to sort of jump on whatever's new and sexy. And not to say that a ketogenic diet is new because it's not. It's just kind of finding a resurgence right now. But so many of us that are like high performers and always looking for the next thing and And, you know, we're all into biohacking or whatever it is like there could be perfectly metabolically healthy, decent sort of body composition doing well at CrossFit or whatever it is that they're doing. And they hear about keto

Starting point is 00:58:34 and they're like, Oh, well, okay, well, maybe I need to do this. And there's nothing wrong with experimenting and trying new things. But is it something that we should all be sort of blanket across the board trying? Like, is it necessary? Like we should all be sort of blanket across the board trying? Like, is it necessary? Like, what are your kind of thoughts on that? Like, should everyone give it a try? Or is it just kind of like, only if you're trying to hit certain kind of goals? Or what do you think about that? So I think it all comes back to what what the goal is, but I do have some bias in terms of just saying that I think that it, everybody should at least just try it, but in the right context. So like I was

Starting point is 00:59:14 talking about in a CrossFitter who's in their off season and maybe, you know, they are trying to increase their, you know, mental capacity. Cause so a lot of people look at these kind of workouts and these things and they think only about like the physical aspect of it, but you're not thinking about also like that mental focus and all of that aspect to it as well. And then also like the recovery aspect of it. So if you are, you know, recovering and carbs are important for recovery and with elite athletes, but if you can use, um, more, you know, fat or as a fuel for recovery, then you're allowing yourself to use those carbs in other places, if that makes sense. Um, but just in general, I would say that, uh, it's, everybody hates to hear this, but it just depends. It depends what the goal is. And if you are someone who is, you know,

Starting point is 01:00:05 an elite athlete and you are, you know, already very healthy, then, then maybe a keto keto is not the right approach for you. But at the same time, if you think about it, those, those athletes are probably consuming a really good diet already. Like they're probably consuming a whole foods diet that is, you know, high in micronutrients and high in nutrients in general. So there's kind of you have to think about that as well when you're thinking about all this. So my opinion is that, you know, it doesn't hurt to try, but it's all in context. And yeah, and I mean, that's, that's smart advice across the board, whether you're trying anything. I mean, everybody could benefit from, you know, trying a new a new fitness regimen or or program, no matter if you're doing one that's fantastic already, everybody could benefit from a one month whole 30. Even if you're already pretty sorted out with your diet, like we all should be open to, again, the self experimentation part of it, because that's, that's the fun is in the journey, right? The fun is in figuring these things out. And you don't

Starting point is 01:01:10 know if it's awesome or not awesome for you unless you try it. So I mean, I appreciate that. I think, I think that we can all strike a fine balance between jumping on every single new thing that we hear on the internet, but also being willing to give things a shot and figure out what works for us. Because yeah, what works for you isn't going to work for me and vice versa. And a lot of people and a lot of athletes have found great success with, with keto. So worth a shot, get rid of the carbs for a couple weeks. It won't kill you. Yeah, definitely won't kill you. But yeah, I agree. Rachel, thank you so much for taking the time.

Starting point is 01:01:46 I appreciate it. You know, connecting across the continent. We'll have to see if we can connect in person again sometime soon and maybe do a part two. But just remind everybody where they can connect with you if you're taking more clients or just learn about what you're doing and connect with you online and all that stuff. Yeah, sure. So my, um, my website is killing it, keto.com. Um, no G just killing it. Um, and that's what I am on, um, most active on Instagram, um, at killing it, keto and on Facebook. And I actually just came out with a new, course online, 12-week video course that you would work one-on-one with me to kind of implement a ketogenic protocol. And then I also have that Keto for Women course that I'm working on.

Starting point is 01:02:38 But all of this is, you know, on my website. And I have some other, you know, stuff on there that you can check out. But yeah, Killing It Keto on all platforms. All right, Rachel, thanks for your time and thanks for all your hard work. I appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for having me. All right, that's it. Thanks, everybody, for listening.

Starting point is 01:02:58 Join me next week for a chat with one of the nicest trainers and docs in the biz. His name is Dr. Mike T. Nelson, and he specializes in metabolism and body composition. And you know, deep down, that's what we all really care about, right? Maybe just in the summer months, has that old body comp going. So we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about training, fueling. We're going to maybe talk about kiteboarding because he's very into that. And I don't really know what it is, but it looks mildly scary. So join me for that. And thank you again to ButcherBox for fueling my life and this podcast. Head to butcherbox.com. Use the code MAVEN for a discount and a special treat

Starting point is 01:03:36 to go with your monthly high quality meat delivery service. And that's it. You guys are awesome. Thank you for spending time with me and have a great weekend.

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Barbell Shrugged - Keto for CrossFit: Can It Be Done – And Should It Be Done? — Muscle Maven Radio Episode #25

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