Barbell Shrugged - Let’s Talk About Sex (Therapy) with Dr. Shannon Chavez — Muscle Maven Radio Episode #10

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome everybody to Muscle Maven Radio. Today's episode is a super fun one, but it's kind of funny. It's actually a little bit backwards because today's guest is a sex therapist and last week's guest was a trainer for pregnant women. So it's a bit of a chicken before the egg scenario talking about pregnancy and now I'm talking about sex, but it's all useful stuff. So today I'm speaking with Dr. Shannon Chavez. She's an educator and a sex therapist for men, women, and couples. She treats people suffering from sexual trauma or abuse. She works on education and awareness for different groups, working on compulsive behaviors. We talk about communication, sexual pain, basically anything you can imagine around sexual health and sexuality.

Starting point is 00:00:44 She has heard it all. She's a licensed clinical psychologist with a private practice in Beverly Hills. And we became Instagram friends because she posts super funny, lighthearted stuff around sex that made me laugh, really funny memes. And she likes some of my fitness stuff and boom, we're internet friends. So I thought we could all learn a little something from talking to her and picking her brain because we all know that sex is a universal part of being human. It's super important to overall health. But with that said, sex is such a huge, broad, complicated topic that sometimes it can be hard for people to delve into or discuss because despite rationally knowing that we all at some point in our lives have issues or questions or concerns or challenges, we don't want people to know that we do. And we don't want to admit that our sex lives are anything but perfect.

Starting point is 00:01:38 But let's all just collectively get over that. We can all admit that we're not perfect with our diet. We're not perfect with our workouts. We're not perfect human beings. So let's just open up to the fact that maybe we aren't perfect in our relationships or our sexual health. And that just like any other part of health, we can learn about it and we can work on it and we can get better. So that's what we're going to do. And we cover a lot in this chat, but we really only scratched the surface. I'd love to do a part two with Dr. Chavez and get some feedback from you guys about what you want me to ask, what you want us to talk about.

Starting point is 00:02:09 In this episode, we cover everything from pain during sex to open relationships to ways to communicate with your partner. I asked Dr. Chavez about her favorite books and resources and toys. We talk about how to get over stereotypes and shame that may be cultural or ingrained since childhood, so much more. And if you're wondering whether you're going to be into this conversation, I'm just going to start out by saying that one of her most frequent pieces of advice or homework for clients is masturbation. So Dr. Chavez is really just looking out for everyone's best interests. Um, anyway, I hope you enjoy the conversation. I

Starting point is 00:02:49 hope you have fun. If you do post about it on social media and make sure you tag shrug collective tag me at the muscle Maven and tag Dr. Chavez at Dr. Shannon Chavez. I actually feel like a fangirl here going, oh my goodness, how are we doing this today? Mutual. And I will say that is definitely one of the good parts about social media. There's lots of bad parts, but the good part is when you follow people that are awesome and put out cool information. And then you get to like make friends with them selfishly because quote unquote, this is work for me, but it's amazing. So I'm glad that I got to, you know, get you here on a Friday afternoon and get to pick your brain a little bit. I'm super excited.

Starting point is 00:03:35 Same, same. And volume and everything is okay on your end. I have a mic here, so I just want to make sure it's doing its thing. Yeah, you sound great. And you know what, I already started recording. Because, because when I talk too much before we start recording, I always miss good stuff. So I usually start recording. And, you know, you say, you like put out some state secrets or something, and we have to cut it, we'll cut it later. But I so many times I'll interview people. And when I when I do have to do it this way, not in person, which obviously in person is always way better. I'm just gonna have to come out to the West coast and see you for part two. But when I have to do it this way, there's so many, so many times that we'll have this great chat and then I'll turn off the recording and then we're kind of just

Starting point is 00:04:18 shooting the shit afterwards. And like all these other great stories come out. I have been there so many times and then we're like, Oh, we should have talked about that. How, how your brain, something in your brain does change when you press the start record button. Like even people like me who are just used to kind of talking and saying whatever is on our mind and recording it. Like there's still just like, you're, I don't know. It's like something comes down once, once you don't feel like you're being recorded, you know, like when you're not being listened to, you're like more open to saying some, well, I mean, you probably know all about people and telling secrets or not telling secrets. I can't wait to ask you about your work, but. Yes.

Starting point is 00:05:01 Anyway, okay. So let's just bring this back here. And I would love for you before we get into any of my fun stories or questions for you to just kind of tell our listeners who you are and what you do. Okay. I'm Dr. Shannon Chavez. I'm a licensed psychologist, a certified sex therapist, and I have a private practice called Shape Center. And Shape stands for sexual health and pleasure enhancement. And my passion in my practice is to educate people about sex and sexuality, talk about sexual health as an aspect of overall health and well-being, and to help people find passion and play and pleasure in their life. So that's why I do this work, because I find that sexuality is such a part of who we are. And I want people to celebrate that and break down all the barriers to experiencing pleasure.

Starting point is 00:05:56 So that is what I do. I also do workshops, groups, speaking engagements. Any way that I can get out there and talk about sex, I'm all about it. That is a very important job you're doing. I appreciate it. And again, like how we met on, well, how we started following each other, I guess on social media, I don't know like who was first, but I just know that you post some very entertaining and informational, but also very fun posts on Instagram. Like, you know, something I'll have have to go back into my phone and see what some of the posts were that really just made me stop my tracks. I'm like, who is this person? And I love

Starting point is 00:06:32 everything they're saying. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, I feel like social media is one of those outlets where we can bring some light and entertainment to something like sex, which I feel even in my practice is so serious. You know, people are coming in with problems, concerns, trauma. And I think sometimes we need to look at sexuality as something that can be playful and we can, you know, post a funny meme or something that just brings into context sex in a different way that can help people feel connected. And they can like something that they they may never talked about or, you know, a topic that may bring a lot of shame. So I'm glad to hear that, that you like the post. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you got to kind of keep it light sometimes, but it's, it's interesting that

Starting point is 00:07:15 you mentioned that because it seems like maybe with sexual health, people treat it the way a lot of people unfortunately treat other aspects of health in that they wait until there's a problem and it's serious before they address it rather than sort of being a bit more maybe proactive and just sort of exploring it and experimenting and trying to be healthy in different ways before sort of the deeper problems set in, I guess. But again, let's kind of step back a little bit. And then my next question is, what got you into this line of work? I love this question because it's almost, it's hard to answer. I think I answer it differently every time. But I think what's coming to me now is the minute I found out that sex therapy was an actual career and this was

Starting point is 00:08:00 something you could do, I was drawn to it. I worked for a sex therapist in college. I remember finding an ad and I used to hear on the radio and I thought, I want to work with her. What an interesting career. And so I went to grad school for psychology. I knew I always wanted to be in the helping profession of some sort. And I was surprised in grad school to find that nobody wanted to work with sex. And this is something I find just in different areas of specialties, that it's difficult to talk about sex. And I thought, wow, what an amazing career where you get to talk about sex, help people feel comfortable around sex. And I always felt comfortable talking about it. Even growing up, I was that kid asking questions and making my parents very uncomfortable.

Starting point is 00:08:39 And it always felt like a natural fit. And the more I specialized in it, and I've specialized in different areas. So I'm a therapist. I also did a coaching certification so I can offer a different modality. And so every type of modality or practice around sex is very unique. And I'm always learning and growing. I love a career where you can always be challenged and even shocked. You know, I'll find new material and go, wow, what is this you can always be challenged and even shocked. I'll find new material and go, wow, what is this? I've never heard of this before. And it's really fun. I've

Starting point is 00:09:11 seen such life-changing experiences from people that just talk about sex or having a workshop where women get to feel empowered around sex or learn how to orgasm or learn about their bodies. And to me, that's just so valuable to provide something like that and to be on someone's sexual healing journey, which is so private and personal to be able to be a part of that is just amazing. And I love doing this work for that reason. Yeah, that's super awesome. How long have you been doing it? You know, I got into the field, I was in the medical field before I transitioned into professional psychology. So in total, it's been about 15 years of working in healthcare, transitioning into psychology, getting all the education out of the way, and then finding my niche in private practice. So before I went into private practice, I actually worked in a really

Starting point is 00:10:01 unique setting. It was an integrated health clinic. And I worked with a gynecologist and a pelvic floor physical therapist and a massage therapist. And we had a med spa type clinic for women to come and deal with sexual issues. And so I took that model and I developed that into my own private practice. And now I work, you know, one-on-one with couples, individuals, and then also groups and workshops to help people get information in any way they can. So yeah, it's been a journey, evolving it into private practice. And then now where I do a lot of my work is community outreach, going into the niches

Starting point is 00:10:37 of community where people may not feel comfortable going to therapy or because of their belief systems, whether it be religious or cultural, that they're just not going to therapy or because of their belief systems, whether it be religious or cultural, that they're just not going to make it to a therapy office, but may need some good tools or counseling around sex. Yeah, that's really important. Okay. So I know because of the line of work that I'm in, I have friends asking me all the time for free advice. They're like, so should I try this keto thing or should should I like workout or whatever? And they're always asking me for free advice, which usually I mean, it's like a non starter trying to like coach or help friends anyway, because it's just like, you're setting yourself up for some interpersonal issues. But do you have like, do your friends like

Starting point is 00:11:20 dish about their like, interesting sex questions or issues or challenges to you all the time? Or is it like the opposite because they know that you're going to, you know, use your therapist brain on them? Oh, I think everyone loves that. You know, I would say the opposite. Everyone, even outside of friends, family, neighbors, someone sitting next to me on a plane, anytime I open up about it, it's actually, you know, the benefit and the fun part about it is that people do feel comfortable that they can open up to a stranger or someone they just met or even family about sex. I love the idea that it can feel normalized and comfortable.

Starting point is 00:11:57 But there are other times, like I mentioned, when you're sitting on a plane and someone goes, oh, what are you up to? What do you do? And then it becomes floodgates opening and all their history and stories come out. And it's fun, but it can sometimes be a lot, especially if you're at an event or, you know, it's always a fun thing when I go out with my partner to, you know, his events. He's a restaurant owner. So we'll go out and people will say, what does your wife do? And then you'll get that bizarre stare and then they'll start asking questions. And I, I do love it. It is really fun. Oh, that's so funny. Yeah. It's such a conversation starter. You might have to have like a, uh, like made up profession for when you don't feel like engaging, like tell people on the

Starting point is 00:12:38 plane, you're a mortician or something just so that they like, they don't have any other information. I've thought about that. I need a pseudo career to kind of throw out there so I don't get all those really personal questions. Yeah, that's so funny. Okay. So do you have, I would imagine, I guess that you have this outreach kind of component and the classes and sessions and stuff, but then you also have clients. So how many ongoing clients are you able to kind of manage at any one time? You know, I have a full-time practice. So I see people all day. I work five days a week. I work on weekends. So my practice is full along with

Starting point is 00:13:17 speaking engagements and events. And people find me in my practice through a lot of resources. So I'll meet with urologists, gynecologists, people that are in the medical community that will refer someone to private practice sex therapy for a supplement to what they're already doing in treatment. Or they may have hit a roadblock in medical treatment, and now it's working on the psychological barriers. So I'm fortunate to have a good community where I get referrals from other professionals or even people in the community that are in, I'm in Beverly Hills, so I'll get

Starting point is 00:13:51 people that know I'm there and are interested in trying it out. What's interesting about my practice is a lot of clients that I work with have never been to therapy. So this is their first time coming into therapy. And I love it. They're so brave. I've never done it. But now I'm here to do sex therapy, and they're open to the process. And I love that it's a very collaborative, exciting journey. So I always get excited when people haven't done any therapy, and they're stepping right up to do sex therapy and deal with their sex life. Yeah. What's the breakdown of your clients or the people that you see generally in terms of male, female, couples, whatever?

Starting point is 00:14:30 Good question. I think it kind of varies, but it's pretty 50-50 as far as males and females, even though I do specialize in women's sexual health. So I do a lot of marketing and advertising in the community for women's issues. And I see quite a bit of couples and I'll usually see individuals and couples or they'll start out as a couple and then go into individual work. So I would say it's a pretty even mix of all of that. I work primarily with adults and all ages. I have clients in their early 20s to their late 70s, early 80s. So it's sort of a nice reminder that our sexuality never ages and that no matter where we are in our lifespan, we're going to have sexual issues. I always tell people that everyone's going to have a sexual issue at some point in their

Starting point is 00:15:16 life. So it's not about just men or women or dysfunctions. It's about just knowing how to recognize that sexual issues are going to come up and we can address them at any age or stage in your life. Yeah, it is interesting that it's such a, it's such a universal topic, obviously. I mean, for, you got to say like 99% of humanity, sex is a huge part of life and a huge part of health. And I guess because it's just such an intimate thing in a way that, because I'm always relating it back to other areas of health, it's more intimate than your nutrition or than your workouts. Although those things can be kind of, people can consider those kind of intimate personal parts of their life too. But there's,

Starting point is 00:16:03 I guess, because it has that different level of intimacy, it's so hard to talk about, even though it is something that we literally all deal with, enjoy, confront, are afraid of, are mystified by. Like we all have the same feelings. And I think at this point, when you're an adult, any issue or hang up or challenge that you have, like you have to acknowledge that if you've got it, somebody else had like, you are not alone,

Starting point is 00:16:28 like somebody else has or is dealing with this, whatever it is that you're dealing with. But we just we still have such a hard time, I guess, confronting it. And I wonder why that is. Because you know, we're in this this day and age where everybody can kind of feel empowered and we can wear what we want and dress how we want and hang out with who we want and all of these things, at least in most cases. And yet there's still these hangups and these issues that we have to deal with. Exactly. It's a universal language, sexuality. And it's fascinating that you say that because it is the one thing we all have in common and it's how we all got here. You know, no matter where you're from, you know, your parents had to have sex for you to get here. And we all have that.

Starting point is 00:17:13 Now, but you're right. It's so uncomfortable. And I think because there's just so many mixed messages about sexuality, on one hand, we see the open, free expression of sexuality. And then we still have such a large population of people that are influenced by their culture or religious beliefs and they're living in shame or isolation around sex. So it's also not normalized. We don't normalize sexual issues. We romanticize sex a lot, right? You know, once you're in love or all these different ideas, fairy tales, you know, I have a lot of issues with the Disney princesses with what they teach women about sexuality. But, you know, there's just all these mixed messages. So we have a lot of mixed beliefs about sex. And I think that has

Starting point is 00:18:05 a lot to do with it because media is such a powerful source of education for people. It really is the job of sex educators and people like myself to put out good information and good messages so people can feel more empowered and ask questions and look at it just like any other aspect of your health. And I like that you connected it with food because I often do that in my practice. Sex is like what we eat. We can have an appetite. We wouldn't want to eat the same thing every day. We have to have different menus for different moods. So it is important to look at it as we would look at food and the pleasure we take in eating and how we nourish ourselves. We can look at sexuality the same way. Yeah, I love that. Food and sex

Starting point is 00:18:52 are basically the two things that take up the entirety of my brain. So I like where this is going already because that's basically where my head's at at all times. Okay, so I love to ask about and learn about people's processes for the work that they do. So I know that this is highly individualized and personal to every client. But I'd love for you to kind of just walk us through if somebody, you get a new client or potential client and someone comes to you and is like, I got some things I got to deal with. Let's go. Like kind of talk me through the exploratory part of what you do and how you kind of determine whether you can work with someone, how you're going to work with someone. Like just kind of walk me through sort of like the introductory process of the work that you do. Yes, that's a great question. So I always start with a phone consultation that people can schedule a little bit of time, complimentary, where we can just

Starting point is 00:19:49 talk over the phone. And I use that opportunity to explain what sex therapy is. There's a lot of misconceptions or questions, and I really want people to find the right fit. Therapy, you should shop around. You should find a therapist that you connect with, because it is such an intimate relationship to sit with someone weekly or biweekly and talk about your sex life. So that's important first for me to feel that connection and for a client to feel that connection first. And once we start therapy, the first session is in office, or sometimes I work with people over a video platform if they're out of area. And the first session is in office or sometimes I work with people over a video platform if they're out of area. And the first session is an assessment. So we go over the entire picture of your entire

Starting point is 00:20:33 health and body profile. So we talk about physical health, mental health, medications, what's going on in your life, stress levels, lifestyle, family relationships. And we look at a pretty detailed sex history first, going through early messages, education, any areas of sexuality that the client's curious about or want to know more about. And before I meet with a client, I have them fill out some online forms in their own words so I can kind of read what they describe their concern as. So they have a place where they can fill out as much as they like describing what's going on. And that helps me, before I even meet with anyone, get a sense of what it's been like for them, what they've tried, where they feel stuck.

Starting point is 00:21:20 And when we actually meet in that assessment, we come up with some goals. We come up with a plan. I like to have a plan so people can feel that therapy has a beginning, a middle, and an end. So it feels like we're making progress and growing towards the things that this client wants to work on. And once we have a good plan, therapy sessions are about working on some of these objectives. So it may be starting with just permission, permission to talk about sex and feel comfortable and safe. I always take that part slowly because I realize that so many people, this is a first for them. They may have never opened up about these issues with someone before. So I always want there to be a feeling of safety and non-judgment.

Starting point is 00:22:06 And once we get into the work, it's a lot of skill building, maybe specific suggestions and resources on how to address a particular concern, and a lot of coaching and education. So even before we get into intensive therapy, there may be just some basic education skills, session. So you can be able to say, Hey, you know, I've been wondering about this, or I've always wanted to know what this means. And that's kind of how the sessions go. It's, it's a combination of a lot of different modalities. I always tell people I work very mind body based. So we're not just looking at mental barriers, but we want to know how all that stuff in your mind affects your body because these two are always in communication, mind and body. And we want to make sure that

Starting point is 00:23:11 you're addressing it from a holistic perspective of looking at how, you know, mind, body, heart, and spirit are all a part of healing. So we have to get them all integrated and aligned to be able to do good work. So I want to talk about, you touched on, this is leading to my next question anyway, about clients wanting to feel like there's progress and sort of an arc here of like progression and then ending, like you've succeeded in something and you've accomplished something and you can kind of feel empowered to move on maybe without the outside assistance. But how do people know when they're done or the mission's accomplished or they're ready to go out on their own? Because again, bringing it back to like nutrition or fitness coaching, sometimes,

Starting point is 00:23:57 you know, it's constantly evolving. Sometimes it's hard to say like, yeah, okay, I'm good now. I'm good to go. I'm ready. How do people know? We're always assessing progress in session. So at the end of every session, we always have a session summary or a recap. What were the most important things that came out of today's session? What's something that you're going to take away from today? So I want it to feel very interactive. So it's not just I went in and I dumped off a lot of information and we processed a lot of topics, but we want to synthesize that into practical ways to take that with you throughout the week.

Starting point is 00:24:33 So it may be a takeaway could be, you know, how am I going to apply this or what are going to be some exercises or behavioral intervention or interventions that I practice this week. And we have a plan that we use. I always call the plan just a structure to work with in therapy. And it may have specific goals, increasing frequency of sexual activity or working on increasing my desire, specific areas. And so as we go along, everything that we're doing or anything I recommend, we're applying it to some of those goals. Are we feeling better about that? Are we starting to notice some changes in desire? Or are you starting to notice you're feeling more comfortable in your body? So we're checking

Starting point is 00:25:14 in a lot. We're always kind of evaluating how these goals are working. And we may at times completely change gears or take a different path. And that's always a great thing, too. Or we start to redesign a plan based on where a client is now. And I think that's always a great process. We are all evolving a plan and really working for treatment to feel like it's full of all the areas that a client wants to work on. Yeah. I mean, it seems to be the conversations I've had recently with, with other sort of successful coaches and trainers and stuff that it's, it's fine to have goals that change and to adjust your, your sort of objectives or interests as you go along through life, but to still have a clear sense of what your goal is at any particular point in time just gives you a lot of

Starting point is 00:26:05 direction and focus and forward momentum. It's okay if it changes, but you've got to have a plan, even if it does end up switching up later on down the line. Right. I even tell people when they come in and they feel a little overwhelmed with the idea of goals or having, I should know what I want to do or why I'm here. And I normalize the fact that not knowing is often a good place to start. I don't really know what I like or what I want or what feels good. That's always a good place to start because we can explore and find out, and that's a good path to go on. All right, well, now we have to provide some opportunities to find out what your pleasure mapping is

Starting point is 00:26:43 and figure out what feels good for you. And so that can be a good place to start too. So even if you don't have goals, we can start with where you are and that's, as a therapist, I'll meet you where you're at. So it doesn't have to be, I have to know exactly what I want, but I know that I'm here and I'm dedicated and committed to the process to growing as a sexual being, to figuring out my sexuality. And that's definitely a great place to start. Do you ever have any issues with male clients or female clients for that matter, who are uncomfortable with you because you are like an attractive woman? And the reason I ask that is because like, I remember this is a while ago, but I had a gynecologist who was like, a good looking dude

Starting point is 00:27:30 who was literally like, age and I was like, this isn't cool. Like I can't this can't happen. So have you ever had people who I guess they know after they they know what they're getting into, because they've sort of done the research or they know who you are. But do you ever have issues with that? You know, occasionally I do because I work with conservative populations. So it may not be about, you know, feeling uncomfortable with just being, you know, meeting with a woman. But sometimes that can be a barrier, just opening up because of their belief system to a woman in the context of couples. And there could be anything from, you know, in their belief systems, it's not okay to shake hands with a woman, for example. And that may be

Starting point is 00:28:10 part of, you know, coming in and you're meeting and doing an assessment. So occasionally that comes up. But for the most part, I do find that when people do finally find me, they are ready, you know, they've either done their research or they've heard something that I've been on, and they feel really comfortable. So they almost feel as if they know me. So when they come in, they feel ready to open up, and they feel safe. So on the other hand, I do primarily meet with high-functioning people that are not dealing with severe mental health issues, and most of them are just looking for some guidance and support around sexual health. So I've been very fortunate to just getting people that are ready to do the work and haven't had a lot of barriers that are just ready to kind of go

Starting point is 00:28:56 and hit the ground running. That's good. Okay. So I know, obviously, there's like lots of patient confidentiality things here. You have to speak in very general terms. But can you kind of talk about what some of the major challenges or issues or obstacles that people in general are coming to you for? Yes, yes. And I think this is so important that we talk about this because common there are only really a handful of concerns that we see over and over again that just tells me how normal it is for these issues, for people to deal with these issues and that they're going through these issues. So I'd say for couples, what I see a lot of is uneven desire,

Starting point is 00:29:39 kind of just lack of interest. They're in their patterns or sex has become awkward. They've kind of lost that lust and excitement. So they're looking for ways to rev up or revamp their sex life and where to start. So I also, with couples, I'm working with postpartum women that are dealing with how to get sex back after baby and dealing with hormonal changes. So that's a big population as well. I'm also seeing a lot of couples coming in wanting to open up their relationships. So maybe they're looking at exploring ethical non-monogamy or are dealing with how to have sexual freedom in their relationship, but remain monogamish. So there's a lot of that help around designing a relationship that works for a couple. And individually with women, I'm meeting with women

Starting point is 00:30:33 that are dealing with a lot of sexual pain issues. That's sort of a niche area as well. Sexual pain for whatever reason, medical issues, trauma, any areas, taking the wrong birth control. That's a pretty big area that I see for women. And also one of my favorite clients to work with is the woman who's never had an orgasm. So I love meeting with that client who is just- How common is that, dear God? Very common, more common than you would think. And I see it around all ages of the lifespan. So it's for many reasons, not knowing the body and anatomy. This is where a lot of education and coaching really helps. And again, misinformation. So I don't think I'm having what I call Hollywood's version of an orgasm, earth know, earth shattering fireworks. But I think I'm having

Starting point is 00:31:25 orgasms or I want to figure out what an orgasm is and how to have them more regularly during partnered sex. And also with women, I find there's just lack of kind of knowing what you want and what feels good. And so there's a lot of clients that just come in wanting to figure it out, starting somewhere and going, well, what do I like? How do I communicate that with a partner? With couples, I also work with a lot of communication issues. So how do we talk about sex? feel comfortable breaking down the shame or embarrassment around just sexual communication in general. And then with my guys, I love my male clients. They're working on performance anxiety, erectile dysfunction, rapid ejaculation is a common one, learning to gain ejaculatory control. And I work with a large population of males that are identifying as, you know, porn addiction. And I kind of consider

Starting point is 00:32:32 porn addiction an out-of-control sexual behavior. So we're looking at the roots of that. Is it connected to anxiety, you know, sexual conditioning? So quite a few cases where we're looking on helping an individual change that behavior and to develop better sexual conditioning so they can function more effectively with a partner and feel more comfortable with partnered sex and intimacy. Okay. I got a lot of questions. Yeah. Lots of good stuff. I mean, that's what I love about sexuality is that it's such a broad field. So there's a lot of stuff that comes in the office. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if I should find it like sad or comforting that it seems like the issues that you're mentioning that are like these overarching issues just like never seem to

Starting point is 00:33:22 change from like generation to generation, from culture to culture. Like it's, it's like the same stuff. It's like women not understanding their bodies or feeling comfortable exploring it and not even knowing how to start to figure out what feels good and all of these things. There's, there's like so much going on there. But first, I want to back up to, you were talking about couples opening up or exploring opening up their relationship. And I want you to describe the difference for me between ethical non-monogamy and monogamish. Yes. So ethical non-monogamy is basically a couple that has agreed and had good communication around being open in their relationship around, it can be sex or emotional relationships with other people. So the ethical piece is we've communicated, we've consented, we've maybe

Starting point is 00:34:11 even negotiated and compromised what that means for our relationship, but they are in an orientation of having a primary relationship, but open to experiences outside of the relationship. The only difference with monogamish is this relationship orientation is primarily monogamous, but occasionally that couple will engage in sexual activity outside of the relationship together or sometimes individually. But it's not a majority of the relationship. It may be sort of a one-time-every-now-and-then type of relationship. Which would be kind of fun. Yeah, an adventure. But this couple sort of values the monogamy and the lifestyle of monogamy,

Starting point is 00:34:56 but may like to dabble a little bit in other sexual places. So it's a little bit different in how it's communicated and agreements and commitments to that orientation. But I find that a lot of it crosses over. It kind of depends on just your relationship identity and what your values are, what's important. For some people, it's just very important to preserve that idea of monogamy in the primary relationship. So I find a lot of it just comes down to some basics and, you know, context and language and how you are valuing what's important in your relationship.

Starting point is 00:35:33 Even based on these terms, you can see how relationships, there is literally no such thing whether you like it or not, as black and white, there's such a huge range of what's possible and what's already out there and what people are trying to negotiate. Like even between this ethical non-monogamy and monogamish, there's like a ton, there's a huge range of how that can manifest in a relationship. So I guess that's where it goes back to why communication is so important, right? Exactly. And I think couples need to give themselves permission to create what works for them. You know, we get a lot of influence from culture. I know even in my experience, I'm married and monogamous, but even when my partner and

Starting point is 00:36:15 I got married, we were struggling with some of the ideas of what marriage should be based on tradition. And we both come from very conservative cultural backgrounds. I'm Latina, he's Pakistani. So because of that, we were like, oh, we were supposed to do this. This is what husband and wife is supposed to do. And we had to reevaluate that and say, wait, no, we can make our own rules. And as long as we agree and we're communicating and checking in, and this works for us, we found a lot of freedom and independence in our relationship because we created our own rules. So I often bring that model to couples. Let's find a way for you to

Starting point is 00:36:52 design your relationship where it works for you. It doesn't matter what other people think. It's important to just feel empowered by your decisions and your choices and not feel so pressured to have to be a certain way in relationship. And I see that a lot. All open relationships are like this or all poly relationships are like that. And it just gets too binded and people lose a lot of that freedom. And that doesn't work. I see a lot of problems from that. And I'd like to think that the, like, you know, my generation, the younger generations are starting to question some of these traditional, I guess, values a little bit more, not necessarily go against them, but just question them. Because as I think you're saying here, like, it's much

Starting point is 00:37:38 better to have the conversations and negotiate and figure out what you want rather than what's expected of you early on. Because if you are entering into a relationship with anybody, no matter how that manifests, it's a long time and a lot of commitment to spend with somebody when you are secretly either resentful or feeling like you're missing out on something or feeling like you aren't in the relationship that you want to be in because you are trying to follow someone else's rules for what a relationship should look like. So, and sometimes we, we wait a little bit too long, you know, we wait until it hits a boiling point or we want to get a divorce or we want to break up or we blow up at our

Starting point is 00:38:20 partner because we've just been like quietly unhappy with the way that our relationship has been sort of created for us, you know? Yes. Yes. And all those emotions that build up and, you know, I think it can be so freeing to just be honest and open. And, you know, that's worked in my relationship as well. You know, we kind of put it all out in the open and, you know, what's important time that you need. You know, I even encourage my couples, make sure you have a good balance between private time, time for yourself, relationship time. And, you know, I kind of cringe at the idea that once you're married or partnered, that everything is a we and everything is shared. You know, I think we definitely need to maintain our autonomy in relationships and not feel, you know, smothered in our relationship or that we have to give so much time and energy that we lose ourself in relationships and not feel smothered in our relationship or that we have

Starting point is 00:39:06 to give so much time and energy that we lose ourselves in our relationships. So that absolutely impacts sex because we lose the mystery and longing and excitement that helps us maintain desire in the long run. So I definitely encourage people to think about that balance and how they can make that work and take it day by day. I definitely encourage people to think about that balance and how they can make that work. And, you know, take it day by day. You know, it may evolve and change and your needs may change, but we want to not get attached to a certain norm because things will change as our lives change. Yeah, I 100% agree with that.

Starting point is 00:39:38 I think what you're saying reminds me of some words from another very smart therapist, Dr. Esther Perel, who I'm sure you're familiar with. Oh, yes. Love her work. Yeah. And she talks a lot about in terms of maintaining sort of sexual interest and excitement in long-term relationships, there's a necessity to create a little bit of that distance and independence and not sort of feel like you are just half of a whole because you can't, it's very hard to expect every single thing from one person. So you want this person to be the person who sees you at your worst and you're comfortable and you can tell them anything and you can go to the bathroom with the door open. But you also want to like be super excited by them all the time and feel like

Starting point is 00:40:25 butterflies every time they walk into a room. And it's like human beings don't operate that way. It's impossible to have all of those things at the same time, all the time from the same person forever. And when we expect that from people, that's setting ourselves up for disappointment. And it's setting the other person up for feeling like they're a disappointment and it's just creates all kinds of problems so it's not it's and it's not even so much and you can correct me if i'm wrong here but i think it's not even so much about making sure that you consciously create this this distance between the two of you but it's more recognizing that no matter how connected or close you are with your partner, that person is still separate from you. And they have their own internal life and thoughts. And you can never

Starting point is 00:41:13 kind of fully understand them. And that's okay. Like you never know exactly what's going on in another person's brain or their heart even. So it's kind of okay to treat them as a person that's other than you. And that's exciting. That's a good thing. Yes, exactly. I mean, that's what brought you together in the first place. You know, attraction is based on our differences and things that we see that are novel and different and curious and another person.

Starting point is 00:41:38 So we definitely need to agree to disagree and know we're not going to be the same. And that, I think, creates compatibility. And that's always a question that people come in with. Are we incompatible? We have different interests. We want to do different things. We haven't aligned in a lot of areas. And so I think it can be relaxing to know that it's not about, you know, compatibility doesn't mean same. It means that you can enjoy or respect or understand why that's important to a partner without having to take all that on yourself and say, you know, we have to enjoy the same things or we have to force ourselves to do this thing that I'm not really into. So I always encourage people to say,

Starting point is 00:42:20 find things that you can do with your partner and then enjoy the things that you love with your friends or with other people or in community in other ways. But we can, you know, we don't have to do everything with our partners and, you know, force them to do uncomfortable things or you have to do uncomfortable things if it's, you know, events or hobbies. So that's an important reminder for people to remember that, you know, find your unique, intimate space with a partner and let that be its own thing outside of everything else. Are there some sort of general rules of thumb in terms of compatibility? Because some people want their partner to be more like them or less like them. And sometimes we're okay with having very different personalities

Starting point is 00:43:06 or even interests or hobbies or things like that. And we can respect our differences. But generally, there are some like overarching things that you sort of have to see eye to eye on for there to be a level of maybe commitment or whatever together. Are there any kind of like general things that keep kind of coming up that could be a problem for compatibility in terms of like long-term relationships? Yes, that's such a good point, especially, you know, I would say compatibility around values, especially if you're in a relationship orientation, or I see this come up quite a bit with young people that maybe one partner wants to start a family and the other doesn't.

Starting point is 00:43:45 So I think those types of values, family, lifestyle, basically even careers, how you're looking at gender roles and careers in relationship, there's just some mismatch there as far as how you value that. It's going to cause a lot of conflict. And there may be an area where a partner is not willing to compromise because it's so important to who they are. So I would think those types of things are important to evaluate before getting into a committed relationship. I know some people kind of put it on the back burner because things are going so well and we'll figure it out later and that can cause a lot of problems

Starting point is 00:44:20 down the line. But that would be the big ones. Other than that, I think we can let go of the need to have to be compatible, even around sex, sexual compatibility. I think you can even have varied interests and things that you want to explore. It doesn't have to be the same, but as a partner, you want to be open to being in that space with your partner and not judging them and not shaming them for that. And then also looking for compromise around what might be a way to meet those needs. So sexual compatibility, I think, can be worked on quite a bit. Values around life and how you're living your life are something that you should address right away before committing. Okay. So talking about sexual compatibility, how are some ways you'd address something super general? Like you've got a committed couple that are generally happy and they like each other.

Starting point is 00:45:16 One person like really wants to get into like BDSM and the other one's like, yeah, I'm not comfortable with that. Now what? I would first talk about, make sure that we know what we're talking about. So when a partner wants to, you know, I'm interested in this, I would want that partner to explain what it is about that, that he or she wants to introduce into the relationship. So it could be, you know, I just want to explore, you know, sensory play. It doesn't necessarily mean, you know, I want to, you know, tie you up and handcuff you. But I would want to just look at what that means for the partner first before bringing it in. And then for the partner who may be opposed to it, talking about what those fears are, anxieties, concerns.

Starting point is 00:46:02 Basically just put it all out on the table so we can have a good discussion about how to explore and find that middle ground around where you might find an interest that you both have that can meet both sets of needs so that's the area where a lot of exploration and resources and I'll recommend even for this couple to maybe go to a workshop on BDSNM and get some information. So then they can start a dialogue around what that would mean in their relationship. So, oh, I was curious about this or it kind of broke down some of my judgments around that. So it can help start a good conversation and I think break down the fears because you're both participating in it together. It's something that you can do together.

Starting point is 00:46:46 So there's an intimacy there as well. I'm interested in the idea of figuring out compromise in situations like this because, you know, in a relationship, obviously there's compromise that happens. And sometimes it's predominantly from one person, depending on the situation, like it's just it's one person has to compromise for the other. And then you kind of hope maybe later on down the line that that's going to be repaid to you. And there's give and take. It's not always equal. And it's not always at the same time. But that's what a relationship is. But in a case like this, where maybe you're going through this process, and you're learning,

Starting point is 00:47:23 you're having the discussion, and you are still open and open to the conversation, but maybe you're not moving any further. Maybe this person's still saying, look, exploring this part of my sexuality is still a very big deal to me. And the other person's saying like, look, I really don't want to do this. Where is the onus for one side or the other to be like, okay, well, I guess I'll compromise and kind of like do something I don't really want to do to make you happy. Or the other person saying like, well, I guess I don't get to do what makes me happy because you don't like it. Sometimes you have to give it up and move forward. And I think sometimes we get so stuck in, I want this one thing, but we can evolve that into something else. So even if, for example,

Starting point is 00:48:03 you said BDSM, so it may be an area where, all right, so this isn't something I'm going to enjoy with my partner, but maybe I can find that outlet through pornography erotica, through my own self-pleasure, and then I'll find something else that I can share with my partner. So we don't want to get hung up in this power struggle around it has to be something, it has to be this way or that way. We want to find something that can be in the middle where we can find agreement. And sometimes I'll say, let's move on from that. Let's find something else because you're getting stuck in the idea of having to have this one thing. And what other areas can we focus on that are areas where you can come into agreement or find some space to play. So that

Starting point is 00:48:46 may be important too, to let go of that idea of needing this and the control around it and the power of it has to be this, or you're not accepting me. Sometimes we just need to move past that by letting go of it and seeing what else, move into a different area. And then as that becomes safer in an area where a couple can grow a little bit more, maybe even reintroducing the idea later down the line after they've built a little bit of intimacy, safety, and openness around another area of sexuality. So that would be a way to kind of move around it and not feel stuck around having to be in agreement in that moment. Yeah, I mean, I guess it makes sense. That's like sort of any debate or discussion that you'd have

Starting point is 00:49:34 with anybody. It's like, let's focus on all of let's try to focus on the positive instead of the negative. Let's try to focus on all of the other options that we have in life. Because that's another great thing about sex is like, there's a billion ways you can do it. So if this one thing is kind of a sticking point, let's like move on to one of the other million different ways that we can explore this. So yeah, I mean, I guess not getting hung up on, on the nose and trying to focus on the yeses instead. And sometimes it's not even about that issue or what you're asking for specifically, but it's more about the underlying factor of, I want to feel validated in what my needs are. I want to feel heard and understood

Starting point is 00:50:11 as an independent sexual being. And so a lot of that is, it's not even about the thing anymore. It gets more about, I just want you, I want to know that you accept and understand that this is important to me and something that is a part of who I am. And so sometimes it's being able to get to that piece, which can help a couple feel a lot more bonded and connected through sharing experiences. So that can be a breakthrough just by forming some good communication around that, you know, being able to be, show empathy and to be curious about it without shutting it down right away. So that can be healing for a lot of couples that feel stuck there. Do you find that there are different issues or the same between homosexual couples versus heterosexual couples? A lot of the same, quite a bit, especially in longer committed relationships. So dealing with, you know, desire discrepancies, communication breakdowns, I find that they're very similar.

Starting point is 00:51:15 So most couples, despite orientation, are going through very similar issues, especially if they're cohabitating and dealing with just changes as lust wears and love transforms into a different type, a lot of the same issues come up. I guess that's another good thing for people to understand too, is that we are all more alike than we are different, whether we're into monogamish or throuples or whatever it is that we're into. I love all the language, right? All these great terms. We all have kind of the same almost mundane issues just because everyone has them. But yeah, I love how social media and the media and whatever, we just love to label things because

Starting point is 00:51:58 now throuple is a word. Do you see much of that? Do you see a lot of couples plus one? Yes, I do. I mean, every orientation you can think of, plus one, plus eight, it gets really diverse. And what I love about it, even this idea of labels, is that sometimes a label is important, but for others, a label can be stigmatizing. It can help people feel really stuck in a certain area. So I'm finding more and more people ditching the labels and feeling a lot more free to be their own unique expression. And I love that. I think it inspires me personally and professionally to say, yes, we're in a time now where sexuality is evolving in so many ways.

Starting point is 00:52:42 So but sometimes the label is important. That helps people find identity, community, especially if they're trying to understand who they are sexually, that can help. Oh, that label, all right, that feels like me. I can now feel validated. And my community, I can go and hear other people's experiences and they know what I'm talking about. So I see a lot of healing that can come from that, especially if people are coming from a community or a family where there's been a lot of shaming, a lot of negativity around their sexuality. Yeah. I mean, I think like you said, I think labels can be very helpful to a point because as you said, it helps people sort of

Starting point is 00:53:23 understand and feel like they're part of something. It's when any label becomes or the identity that you attach to it becomes too dogmatic. That's when it's an issue. And I keep, I keep bringing this back to food because I, like I told you, that's kind of where I live at all times, but like people who label themselves as paleo or vegetarian or whatever. And then on social media, you see a vegetarian like eating a burger and like they get hate for it. It's like, okay, so this is when labeling becomes a problem because we're judging people based on what we think is right or wrong for them. When we should really just be kind of like staying in our own lane and trying to figure

Starting point is 00:54:02 out what's best for us. Yes, exactly. And that is an issue because a lot of people suffer in silence because of that. You know, I don't want to talk about things because I don't want to be judged or, you know, even I see this with women in their social circles. You know, I'm not talking about my sex issues because I feel like I'm the only one who's not having great sex and everyone else is having great sex. And, you know, I'm, you know, feeling so isolated. So I think it's, you know, it's important that we validate other people's experiences and learn about other people's experiences. You know, what do other people do? Even open relationships, that's, you know, been more talked about now than it ever has been. You know, what's that like for

Starting point is 00:54:41 people and looking at it with open eyes without, you know, making any judgments or trying to find a reason why that's not right or wrong in any way. So I want to touch on another topic that you mentioned, which is painful sex, because I actually just interviewed a pelvic health specialist and learned that sometimes for women, painful sex can be really like a muscular issue on its own. I didn't realize there were so many different ways that we can be having messed up painful sex, which kind of sucks. But talk a little bit about that and what you're seeing and how much of it is maybe physical, how much of it is mental, how you address that.

Starting point is 00:55:29 Yes. Actually, it's both. It's mental and physical. So that's why I focus on mind-body. So you can address it from either one or the other, but you have to get both on board if you want to have good, healthy sex. And it only takes one negative experience to condition our response. So if it was painful one time or you didn't have enough time to allow

Starting point is 00:55:54 yourself to get fully aroused, all of that can condition your body to be more tense or less open and receptive to pleasure at another experience or time. So on the physiological level, there are certain diagnoses that we see. You know, dyspareunia is what we sort of call as chronic pain. There's also a condition called vaginismus, which is involuntary muscle contractions in the vaginal canal. So these types of issues, it's important to work both mind and body. So physically, we may actually be using tools, devices, products to help work with those muscles. Pelvic floor physical therapy is wonderful. I have a great community of women that I refer to for this therapy, specifically working on the body. And then the mental piece is to be able to change some of that

Starting point is 00:56:46 conditioning around pain and to have the body communicate with the mind around relaxation. And I do a lot of priming with the nervous system to help women be able to reset that pain response or if they've had trauma so that they can have a better experience. And other pain issues I see, I mean, I personally have endometriosis, so I see a lot of cases. And for those that don't know what that is, it's an autoimmune condition that causes a lot of inflammatory response in the pelvic area. It can be in other areas of your body, but it causes a lot of pain with sex. It can cause painful periods, lots of pain and discomfort in the abdomen area. So this is a thing that affects women physically and emotionally because you just don't feel great in your body. You don't

Starting point is 00:57:37 want to be touched. So with this type of condition, there's a whole protocol of things we need to address from a medical and psychological treatment so that they're getting a full comprehensive plan around how to deal with it. Because the pain is going to be pretty consistent. So you have to have a really good toolbox of things you can use with a partner. I know too many women who are suffering with endometriosis, and it seems like such a just complicated and awful and painful thing to have to deal with. And it also seems like it's one of the autoimmune issues that I am aware of that seems to maybe not respond as well to lifestyle factors. Like I've talked to a lot of women and autoimmune issues generally occur mostly in women seems that, and this isn't to say like, oh, if you're just super healthy and fit, you're not going to have autoimmune issues, but oftentimes it can be very well managed or minimized through a specific kind of diet, a specific kind of sort of like lifestyle protocol.

Starting point is 00:58:44 But it seems like endometriosis, that's not the case. It seems like there's very little that you can do personally to manage it. Is that true? I've found that yes, that is definitely true. So, you know, I've been on all the anti-inflammatory, you know, trying different diets, protocols, but I found that you have to just go even deeper than that. Looking at environmental factors, products, you know, anything can become toxic to the body and cause an autoimmune response. So you have to really clean up your lifestyle overall. And sometimes you may find great results and things that work. And other times you're just really managing at a certain level of pain. So that's the mystery of endometriosis.

Starting point is 00:59:26 There are so many triggers that it's not just dietary. It can be anything. I mean, I'm looking at so many things now, you know, tampons and products that women are using, you know, birth control. I have this theory that a lot of women that have had painful periods have been put on birth control, but that can also trigger this immune response. So birth control can be a very negative medication for a lot of women. I know that was for me personally. I had a lot of issues with synthetic hormones. So I think women need to

Starting point is 00:59:57 kind of know their bodies and know that it may not just be one thing. There's no one protocol that's going to take it all away, but to be open to experimenting and trying new things, everything from Eastern medicine to maybe more particular Western protocols, but just being open. You never know what's going to work. I always say try as much as you can if you have the resources or if you can talk to people and be your best advocate for your own body. So know what your best advocate for your own body. So know what your body, you know, listen to your body. I always say even with endometriosis, the body is trying to communicate a very powerful message of, you know, not being in balance and, you know, inflammation is always a really powerful communication from the body.

Starting point is 01:00:40 So just understanding what the body needs. And it may be something like slowing down and changing your life and getting negative people and things out of your life. You know, there's a metaphysical aspect to understanding, you know, what this condition is. So kind of looking at it from every possible angle is what I think we need to do. Because it's such a mysterious disease, there's just not a lot of information out there. For people with endometriosis, is it basically assumed if you have it that you will be managing it until basically like menopause or even beyond that?

Starting point is 01:01:15 How does that work? Yes, even beyond that. So I know that what menopause does is it can sort of suppress and stop the painful symptoms because your hormone levels are basically going into, you know, you're eliminating all of this high hormone activity, which can trigger the endometriosis. So that's usually a treatment protocol to put you through a medical menopause, which can help suppress all that hormone activity. But what I found in my research is that it can affect other parts of the body. So it's not just a reproductive issue. You can have endometriomas on any organ in the body.

Starting point is 01:01:52 So you can address it through surgery or treatment locally to that area, but it may come up in other areas. So it's kind of important to just find out what those triggers may be if it is related to environment or food or medication or anything else, you know, stress levels, kind of looking at all possible triggers, because it may be, you know, outside of your reproductive area, and you may not know it. And that was my case. I found it, you know, I have it in my stomach and in other areas of the body. So it's not just my pelvic area. That's so crazy. I mean, without getting to any more personal than you want to, can you talk to us about how you are managing it? Like how you kind of deal with it on a day to day basis? Yes. So I do a lot of restrictive dietary changes, so I don't need any. I try to eat as much of an anti-inflammatory diet as possible. And a lot of it's lifestyle, so making sure that I'm just taking care of myself,

Starting point is 01:02:55 especially in the work that I do where I have to be very present with a lot of holding space for people that are dealing with a lot of pain. So I have to make sure I'm taking care of my body so I'm not bringing that energy home and that I just have time to be with myself and my body. So I find that that's important, especially with pain. So from a sexual side, I haven't had a lot of the sexual pain with partnered activity, but I do recommend masturbation a lot for individuals dealing with pelvic pain and tension in the pelvic area. You know, masturbation is just such a great way to keep good blood flow and improve your circulation. It helps your body. So I find that it's been really helpful, helping me reduce my pain. And

Starting point is 01:03:45 there's a lot of great products you can use along with that they have CBD infused lubricants that can help reduce pain and discomfort. So for me, it's making sure I'm still taking care of my sexual health, despite, you know, my basically my uterus being on fire with all these endometriomas. And also, I think from a psychological place is not identifying as, you know, someone with endometriosis, but looking at it as this is just something that I'm dealing with and coping with, and it doesn't control me. So I don't make it, you know, the entire focus of my health, but I look at it as something that I have to just be aware of and check in with and make sure I'm managing my pain as best as possible. Yeah. It's a challenge, not something that defines you, right? Exactly. And it changes. It ebbs and flows, you know, daily. So anyone dealing with it,

Starting point is 01:04:40 you may notice, you know, sometimes you have great days and other days you don't. And the days that you don't, you just take care of yourself. Maybe you need a Netflix and chill, you relax and just take care of yourself in the best way you can. And that's okay. That was hard for me as a business owner to take time. You know, I was always going and probably working too much. And I had to really take time and slow down. And that was hard. That's not really my personality. So it took a lot of struggling to get to that point of saying, hey, it's okay. It's okay that I'm just taking a day off or, you know, relaxing outside in the sun or gardening, whatever it may be, that was just an activity where I could take it easy.

Starting point is 01:05:23 I mean, you're the professional here, but I think that you could probably say that masturbation is like a good answer to most pain and stress, right? I think it is the universal medicine. It's a natural painkiller. It's a natural relaxant. Like what can't it do? Right? I mean, that's, it's like, that should be kind of like your first line of defense for anything. It's like maybe, you know, masturbate and then come back and we'll see what's, what's really going on. That's probably how my session sound at my practice. Oh, you're sleep issues, masturbate, not in the mood, masturbate. I mean, it really is. I think it is the fountain of youth. One of my mentors, Betty Dotson, they call her the godmother of

Starting point is 01:06:02 masturbation. If you look at her, she's just – That's a great title. She's vibrant. She's beautiful. She's turning 90 years old this year, and she looks amazing. So I look at her and I go, this is someone that is the pillar of why masturbation is the fountain of youth and health because she is just amazing, and she's just full of energy and so vibrant at her age. So, yes, I think. What's her name?

Starting point is 01:06:27 She is a sex educator and she, Betty Dotson. She's written the book Sex for One and she would run conscious awareness groups for women in the 60s and 70s about addressing their issues with orgasm and teaching women about orgasm through masturbation and helping empower them to be in control of their own bodies. You know, instead of waiting for someone to give you an orgasm, you are in control of your orgasm. So I use a lot of her methods and modalities in my work. And one of my favorite sex toys is a device that she designed called the vaginal barbell. And yes, it's exactly what it sounds like. It's a one pound stainless steel. You got

Starting point is 01:07:12 to look that one up. It's a stainless steel device and you place an intravaginally and it also helps you exercise your pelvic floor. So I kind of look at it as an all inin-one. You can use it as a dildo, pelvic floor exerciser. It's got some ribbed edges on it, so it can provide a little bit of varied stimulation. But it's great. It's like a little joystick for the vagina. And you can use a vibrator on top of it for the clitoris, placing the barbell intravaginally. And it's a really great device. So she's designed that with a whole protocol for women to use for genital workouts. So I feel like she's just

Starting point is 01:07:52 been really life-changing for me. And I've had the opportunity to go to one of her body sex workshops that she offers where women enter nude and you talk about orgasm and you do a genital show and tell. It's really, really fabulous. It's scary and fabulous. First of all, you had me at barbell. Yay. To this podcast, we're going to be like, right, that's like right up our alley is any kind of workout, whatever body part we're using. So I'm super into that. Okay, let's talk about a what was it vaginal genital show and tell? Yes, it's exactly what it sounds like. So you sit nude, legs open, desk lamp right up to your vulva. And Betty will say, tell me about your pussy. And you literally tell her what you see. So you talk about it. And it's

Starting point is 01:08:46 so liberating because, you know, even as women, we rarely see other genitals and it's not something we even look at, you know, as someone, as a sex therapist who recommends this all the time, when I actually went for myself, I said, I've never done this. And I prescribed this to clients all the time. So it was frightening at first because again, I had never done this before, but afterwards we were laughing. We all named our vulvas. It was just so fun. The level of fun and bonding that happened in this group of women was incredible. It's amazing. We should all nickname our privates. I think that's probably just a smart way to go through life.

Starting point is 01:09:26 Right, why not? I mean, it's a part of your body, and it's an important part of our body. It holds our creativity. It's just a really important thing to do to validate and experience. Break through genital shame. So many people have that, and it's just such a big barrier to pleasure. And it's so different, too, for women because our stuff, most of it's internal. And it's like, it's harder for us to see like dudes, it's pretty easy for them to see their junk. Like we have to get a little bit more work for us. And I wonder if that has, in addition to a lot of obvious,

Starting point is 01:10:00 like cultural differences in the way we treat men and women and their sexuality. But I wonder if just like the pure physics of it is also another reason why women don't like we don't just sort of well, not all women, but some women don't just instinctively take to masturbation the way men do like, and I'm sure that you you deal with male clients who maybe have some issues around this too. But generally, it's like men start playing with themselves as soon as they are born and they kind of never stop. Whereas for a lot of women, they maybe actually have to learn how to do it. And I wonder if that has anything to do with it is like just kind of the physics of it too. Absolutely. And knowing the anatomy is such an important part. When I talk about the clitoris and talk about the structure of the clitoris, and I have a lot of models in my office that I use that are so helpful to educate in a non-threatening way. So I have

Starting point is 01:10:56 vulva puppets and a clitoris model that's really pretty, brass model. And so all of these things are really, they open up the conversations and they help women learn about their bodies without feeling shame or not comfortable asking questions. So it definitely helps. And also, there's a lot of messages. I know for myself, I grew up in a conservative Catholic Latino household, and I just remember the messages, close your legs, you know, pull your skirt down, all these questions or statements that made me feel that it wasn't okay to, you know, my body should always be covered. And these are the types of messages that I see a lot of women come in with. You know, I've never looked at myself, that would be dirty or wrong, or I was

Starting point is 01:11:43 always told to cover up. So I never thought about just letting it all hang out and looking at my body. So that can be really liberating too to be able to say, all right, now I can go home and look. Sometimes I'll tell my clients to go home and just be in the nude. Take your clothes off. It doesn't have – you don't have to touch your body but just be nude and do anything that you would do as a normal part of your schedule, read a book, cook a meal, watch TV. But it normalizes the idea that being nude is a part of

Starting point is 01:12:14 just being embodied and to feel comfortable with your body. And that helps the exploration of genitals and other parts of your body. I love that. Like naked Sundays, like just, you know, you're hanging out anyway, might as well take the clothes off, see what happens. Yeah. And be naked and comfortable because especially in sex, what are we doing? We're holding our bellies in, we're trying to be perfect. It's all about looking right. And sometimes we just have to let it all hang out and be comfortable with what we see. And especially women, we look at ourselves and we examine, oh, that could be better. That should be tighter. And sometimes we just have to love our bodies and tell our bodies, affirm our bodies,

Starting point is 01:12:54 give our bodies compliments and have that good relationship. It really is the longest relationship we have. And we abuse it a lot with what we tell ourselves. And we do get such conflicting messages. Like, I think this is something that could be a whole other podcast. We're going to definitely have to do a part two, so I don't keep you here all day. But one of the conflicting messages that always really gets me riled up is the sort of opposing forces where women are, of course, supposed to engage in sex and on some level, we're supposed to enjoy it. But there's the message that especially for like,

Starting point is 01:13:32 teenagers or like young men and women that for men to go out and have sex and go out and get sex is like an exciting, good rite of passage and an accomplishment. Whereas if a young girl is having sex, it's something that was like done to her. And it's something that's supposed to be, she's supposed to be protected from. And it's that sort of kind of patronizing, like older brother or father figure that's like slapping their son on the back because they got laid, but like bringing out the shotgun because their daughter's out with a boy. And that always got to me because to me, the message that it's sending is that for a woman to have sex, something bad has been done to her or something unpleasant or

Starting point is 01:14:17 untoward has happened to a girl versus if a boy does it, he's doing something that's good that he should be rewarded for. And it's like, how can you in sort of like one brain expect women to have sex with you and to be a part of the sexual experience? And yet you're also telling us that when we do it, it's something that has like soiled us or devalued us or is something that we should be protected from because it's so terrible. Like these are literally kind of conflicting thoughts that are happening in the same brains. And it's always like really pissed me off. And this happens in like North American progressive culture still all the time.

Starting point is 01:14:53 Yes, exactly. You know, even, you know, how we look at things like virginity and, you know, even the gender roles in sexuality and in the hetero, you know, you know, heteronormative of all the messages that people receive. So it's, it's a huge problem. I get fired up like you do. And it just drives me crazy because we have so much work to do. And even though we're at this day and age now where we are more open and evolved, we are still dealing with deprogramming all of that stuff and getting rid of those early messages that can impact you throughout your entire life. So yeah, I feel the same way. We got to change that.

Starting point is 01:15:32 Yeah, I really think that I want people without kind of being like accusatory, I would love for people because these are my friends all the time. I have lots of guy friends who are like, Oh, yeah, when my daughter gets older, I'm gonna fuck up any guy that comes around or whatever. And I really try not to engage in it because I just want people to sort of just think deeply about what you're saying. Because if you're somebody who respects your partner or respects the woman that you're with, or wants the woman that you're having sex with to enjoy it and think that it's a positive experience, why wouldn't you want that for your kid? It's fine that you don't want to maybe dwell on your children having sex the way we don't want to dwell on our parents having sex.

Starting point is 01:16:12 That's fine. But to still respect that they can have a pleasant, positive, enjoyable, happy encounter, I just don't understand why that's something that you wouldn't want for your child. You know, it's just, I don't know, it just, it gets them a goat. Exactly. And it impacts, you know, health overall. So I think we need to make that connection too. You know, your children experiencing and exploring their sexuality will impact their health later on in life. So, you know, let's not be in denial that we're all sexual and let's start getting good tools and resources. And, you know, I try to do that as much as I can. I have, you know,

Starting point is 01:16:51 one of my best friends when she had her daughter, I was all about, all right, I'm giving her her first sex books. I want her to start knowing what her body is. And she's four years old and she knows the word vulva. And I feel so proud that, you know, we had that conversation and now she's, you know, she's going to know things and that's where it starts as early as possible. And I tell my clients that too, as early as you can, the more you get, you know, your discomfort is going to be communicated to your child, regardless as if you're saying it or not, they're going to notice it, they're going to observe it. And so we just need to have good resources. And so whether you need a therapist to help you out to have those conversations, I do a mom and daughter menses preparation coaching program. So mom and daughter can come

Starting point is 01:17:36 in and we can talk about changes and hormones and puberty in a safe setting. So there's a lot of resources out there that people like myself are offering that might help parents that are uncomfortable so they don't give the wrong messages. And sex negativity is not something that they're giving their children as they go into the world as sexual beings. So you touched on this a couple times throughout our chat. And of course, you mentioned, because I will never forget this term now, the vaginal barbell. Are there any other toys or books or resources that are sort of across the board, good ones that you like to recommend to people in general as just good reading, good things to try out or

Starting point is 01:18:21 play with? So many. The devices, I think we have a lot of great technology now. So Lalo is a good company. Phoria, they make products like lubricants and suppositories that have THC or CBD, which can be helpful for pain. A good lubricant, I think, is really important. So even toys aside, a lubricant is really important as an accessory for sex no matter what. Whether you are naturally lubricated or not, think about it as just something you can bring in to assist and help. And lube is not a bad thing.

Starting point is 01:18:58 And as far as devices that I like, I like these smart devices where you can program your own pleasure. The Smart Wand by Lalo is one of them where you can program the intensity and different vibrational patterns that you like. So devices can be as individualized as you can possibly think. So I really love all of their products, their wands, their G-Spot wands. I use a lot of those for my priming exercises for clients. And for couples, there's great devices that you can bring in and use for coupled sex, whether you're in a heterosexual or homosexual relationship or any pansexual, all sexual relationships. A vibrator can be used on any part of the body, not just for women's bodies or female bodies.

Starting point is 01:19:47 So that's something to remember, too. I always tease my husband, a vibrator can be used on any part of your body, too. So you just never know how we can use this. The barbell, that's where he says, that's where he draws his line. I've tried pretty much every CBD product known to man except lube so that's kind of an interesting uh concept but yeah i think i think you posted the other day about the like poor cbd all over entire life like it's like it's a new coconut oil that's exactly what i was thinking it's just in everything now especially here in la you can get it's just in everything now, especially here in LA, you can get it in just everything, coffee, nasal spray. I mean, you name it. Some people say that it's like a placebo. And

Starting point is 01:20:31 if it's a placebo for some people, if it works, that's great. But I have found pretty significant quality of life improvements since I started using CBD. So I'm, I'm a believer. I mean, I think with a lot of things, it works for some people, it doesn't work for everybody. That doesn't mean that it's snake oil, you know, like I, I've found it to be incredibly valuable. So I mean, why not add it to lube? Exactly, exactly. And, and, you know, placebo effect or not the, you know, a lot of antidepressants, they say are placebo effect. So, you know, that's just goes to show the power of the mind. And if you believe in a product that's going to help you heal and you take care of your body along the way, you'll see really amazing, you know, amazing outcomes and effects.

Starting point is 01:21:13 So try everything. That's my advice. Try it all. See what you like. You know, there's so many good products out there. So I definitely, you know, whether it be sex toys and you mentioned books, you know, there's so many good books out there. I could just go on for days talking about books. But one of my most recent ones that I

Starting point is 01:21:30 really enjoyed was Girl Boner. This is by August McLaughlin. And I was able to contribute a chapter in that book. But it's just a great book about empowering women around sexuality. Betty Dotson has written some amazing books. There's books on sex research, about sexual anthropology. So whatever your interest is, even learning about sexual fantasies and things like that, there's a book for everything. So I recommend just getting a book list of different interests and topics that you want to know more about. And you can always contact me on my website as well. And I can give you book recommendations.

Starting point is 01:22:06 Any listeners out there that want a book on kink or opening up relationships or anything, kissing, learning how to kiss better. I hear a lot of questions about that. So there's a book for everything. Learning how to kiss better. That's amazing. I'm expecting like, okay,

Starting point is 01:22:24 let's get into all these weird, like polyamorous, like complicated situations. You're like, people just kind of need to kiss better. Bring back the art of kissing. That's one of my favorite erotic activities with my partner is kissing. It's just, you know, a kissing is wonderful. You know, there's so many ways you can do it. It can be passionate. It can be loving. It can be playful. So yes, don't underestimate the power of the kiss. That's so awesome. Okay, so the advice, the key advice that I've taken so far, I'm going to let you go soon,

Starting point is 01:22:56 but we definitely have to do a part two because this has been so much fun and I know that we can just like talk forever. But okay, so high level advice, masturbate, try anything for you to leave up with. Cause bringing it back again to just sort of health and an overall healthy, happy functioning life. Um, you know, everybody, like you said, we can personalize things and things are going to be individual for individual people, depending on your goals and your backgrounds and your interest and all of these things similar to health, right?

Starting point is 01:23:28 So people are going to have different diets, people are going to have different workout programs, whatever. But there are some sort of very high level key things that are like a basis of health for everybody, right? So you'd tell if you're a health coach, you might tell people like, stay hydrated, eat real food, move your body and try to minimize stress. Like those are like four of the like most high level things for being generally healthy, right? What are some sort of general high level advice you can give anybody for improving their sexual health and happiness? Yes. The first is communicate. Communicate, communicate, communicate any which way. Talk about it with someone, with your partner, with a therapist, whatever way you can. You got to talk

Starting point is 01:24:17 about it in order to learn more about it and to understand your sexuality. So get it out of your head and into a place or space where you can talk about it and address it openly. The next is to get rid of your own judgments and shame around sexuality. So if you notice you are having or struggling with those areas, that is probably the biggest barrier to sexual pleasure. So make sure you're addressing that, breaking those judgments and shame down. And the third is to get embodied, you know, getting your body in any which way, even if it's non-sexual, moving your body, dance, whether it's your workout or exercise routine, going on walks, any way you can feel more embodied is going to help you access your pleasure potential. So that's so important.

Starting point is 01:25:05 And we can't have sex in our heads. We're the only species that has this complicated intellect around sex. And the truth is sex is primal. So getting in your body is how we get in touch with our primal sexuality. And that's our senses, engaging the senses, engaging touch. And that's really where eroticism lives. So get in your body, everyone. Get out of your head.

Starting point is 01:25:30 Dr. Chavez, I loved this conversation so much. I had so much fun. Thank you for doing this on a Friday afternoon with me. This was amazing. Yes, thank you for having me. And I would love to do a part two. So if anyone has questions, let me know. I would love to come back and chat with you.

Starting point is 01:25:46 100%. I have a feeling people are going to really enjoy this chat and definitely have some follow-up. Okay. So before I let you go, let our listeners know where they can reach out to you online for your hilarious Instagram posts and where they can find out more about you. Excellent. So on social media, on all the sites, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, I'm at DrShannonChavez.

Starting point is 01:26:07 And my website is DrShannonChavez.com. So you can go there for good information or even a free consultation. I do offer 15 minutes for people that are interested in therapy. And yes, so feel free to follow me for some fun sex positive information. Awesome. All right. Have a great weekend. Thank you again. I'm going to go research the vaginal

Starting point is 01:26:31 barbell and we'll be in touch. All right. Thanks for having me. Have a good one. All right, everybody. Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. I love that she knows her audience. She knew that if she mentioned any kind of sex toy with the word barbell in it, we'd all just be into that. Let's see if there's a spike in Amazon sales. Anyway, if you're still listening to my podcast, that must mean you like it. So if you like it, do me a fave and write a nice review and rating on iTunes for me, because it's basically like you're tipping me for good service and you wouldn't stiff me on a tip, would you? You'd never do that, I'm sure. Anyway, join me next week. I'm having a fun chat with

Starting point is 01:27:08 someone who is frankly, probably too smart for me, but don't tell him that his name is Jordan shallow. He's a chiropractor. He's a strength coach. He has his own popular podcast called RX radio. He has developed a number of programs at this point, including a seminar with Ben Pekulski. They travel all over the world teaching. He's got a program called Prescript. He's got an epic beard. He deadlifts a lot. This sounds right up your alley, right?

Starting point is 01:27:34 Like, I know you're into it. We talk about his work. We talk about his programming, some of his kind of bad injuries that he sustained recently and how he's training for a powerlifting competition despite Um, despite those injuries, we talk about social media creeps. We talk about Michael Jackson. We're kind of all over the place. Um, but that's what makes it fun, right? So I hope you join me. That's next week and, uh, have a great day, everybody.

Barbell Shrugged - Let’s Talk About Sex (Therapy) with Dr. Shannon Chavez — Muscle Maven Radio Episode #10

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