Barbell Shrugged - Let’s Talk Scaling - Business of Fitness #73

Starting point is 00:00:00 All right, everybody, and welcome back to the Business of Fitness podcast. I'm Jason Kleep, and on today's episode, we have MDV, Matt DeLaValle. Now, Matt has ran coaching for us globally for quite a while. Prior to that, he's worked at a number of different gyms, went to law school, worked for Reebok, and he has an extensive amount of experience. Now, today, we dive in this idea of scaling and onboarding members and some of the tools that we utilize at our gym on how to do that.

Starting point is 00:00:30 Before we dive into the episode, just wanna let you know, if you haven't checked out our partners over at WHOOP, make sure you guys do. It's a really cool wrist strap. For me, I wear it primarily to check out my sleep, check out my heart rate, and to keep me on track with what my strain score is.

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Starting point is 00:01:02 Let me know if these are providing valuable information to you or ways to improve. Now let's dive right into the episode. All right, everybody, and welcome back to the Business of Fitness podcast. I'm Jason Kalipa, and I'm sitting across from MDV, Matt DeLaValle. Now him and I could probably have no different of working flow. He's sitting here with his notepad out and we're about to talk about scaling. And I'm just sitting here being like, let's go ahead and bang this thing out. Let's talk about it. Let's dive into it. Just right off the cuff. So MDV, scaling. we'll get into a different type of workflow and the way people work. I think that's a super interesting podcast,

Starting point is 00:01:50 super interesting conversation. But, um, you know, as we talked about in the intro, uh, MDV, uh, you know, runs a coaching for the organization gets in front of a lot of coaches has been in front of a lot of coaches for a lot of years. And I think that one of the most important topics that we get, and so we have a private Facebook group for our collective members. And at this point, there's quite a few collective gyms out there. And so we're getting a large audience that's sharing insight and different challenges that they're going through. And a lot of the questions that we receive pertain to this concept of scaling and how to preserve the stimulus and looking at mechanics, consistency, and then kind of asking for people's best effort.

Starting point is 00:02:31 So where do you want to start with this? Because I feel like it's a very common theme on our, on our channel, right? Yeah. It's a, it's a pretty common theme on there. You know, I think people are asking some good questions about it. Um, I think, uh, that shows me that people are interested in creating the best possible workout experience for their members, which is awesome, right? If you're thinking about how to adapt the program to the individual, you're on the right track. Um, I think something that, you know, would be super valuable for us to discuss here is, you know, the, the intention of our NC60 program, our GPP program, who's, who are we building it for when we're drafting these workouts and

Starting point is 00:03:07 testing these workouts and defining the stimulus? And then what is the appropriate way to bring workouts to life in the class environment, regardless of what program you follow, you have to have an understanding of what the stimulus is, and then you have to bring it to life in front of X number of members. And it has got to be an individual experience, at least in my opinion. So, um, long way of saying we should talk about scaling. We should talk about intention of your program. And there's a whole bunch of different things that we can get into today. Yeah, well, let's do it. I mean, as you all know, who are listening, if you have, if you're in the fitness space or if you've ever been into the gym or if you're an owner, if you're a coach, scaling relates to everything.

Starting point is 00:03:49 I mean, I think it's really important that we need to meet people where they're at to provide them a premium experience. And if you think about life in general, most things, especially when you enter it, they need to be scaled back based on your, your particular level. I mean, if you look at any type of physical thing, like sports, for example, when my son had his first basketball game, they're talking about just the basic, basic, basic fundamental dribble, right? They had to scale it down for him, or they might need to scale it up for somebody else who has more experience and more advanced. And that same thing you can see in jujitsu or different forms of art. So it's no different in CrossFit or in the gym that we have an obligation and from a business perspective and from a safety perspective and for a member experience perspective to

Starting point is 00:04:37 scale effectively. So what kind of things are we looking for and what does scaling mean to you? Because I think that there's a misconception at times that it's a negative thing. I actually think for most people, most of the time, it's a very good thing. Yeah, I agree with you there. And like you made a good point, scaling is a part of life when you're learning anything. Yes. Anything, right? You can think about a typist, you know, someone who's training to be a very high level typist, right? They start off with a very simplistic method of how they're going to line up their hands and then how they're going to type certain sentences over and over and over again. And as they get proficient, they move on

Starting point is 00:05:14 to more complex sentences. And now they're looking for a little bit of speed in the middle, right? And then once you get proficient there, you're asked to add more speed until you become an extremely proficient typer, right? And if you're at any point in that journey, if you start sacrificing mechanics or making too many errors, you got to rewind a little bit. You got to go back, right? The beautiful point that you made about what we do here in the gym is this is a safety concern, man, because you have people putting their bodies into different positions under

Starting point is 00:05:39 load or on elevated platforms like rings or bars or things like that. So coaches have to be really uniquely aware of those types of risks. And then we can also talk about injuries and all that kind of stuff. But to start out here, I think one of the biggest things I want to nail home is that the greatest risk that I see for people within the type of fitness that we're doing is too much, too soon, too fast. And the tendency, not only for athletes, but also for coaches to rush that journey of somebody into the deep end far too quickly than they're ready for. And it's a little bit of a competing

Starting point is 00:06:22 interest type of thing because you can't be pumping the brakes on somebody forever and completely stalling out their workout and not allowing them to sweat and have fun and get after it. But you also don't want to put them in a position where they're potentially going to hurt themselves and not be able to come back the next day or a couple of days after that because they're so messed up. Yeah. So how do you draw the line? What are we looking for here? What type of tangible items can coaches or owners to work with their coaches? I mean, for us, for example, as owners, we then provide tools for our coaches through our daily session plans, our daily videos on scaling alternative options that we obviously

Starting point is 00:07:04 use for all of our locations. But what should coaches be looking for? How do you know when to turn somebody up? How do you know when to turn them down? I mean, where does it all, the foundation of everything starts with the desired stimulus, would you say? Where does it start? I think very soon after somebody enters the gym, you want to start to be having a conversation about desired stimulus and all that kind of stuff. The actual effect of the workout that you want to have for the athlete. But I think if you're starting off really, really basic, we are starting off in a learning experience, a learning environment where you want the individual for, and depending on a whole host of factors, there's so many factors that come into this. But if you're talking about the average

Starting point is 00:07:49 individual who comes on into your gym, who is not extremely deconditioned, they're not extremely fit. There's somebody who has no known health issues, no preexisting injuries. They can move. Okay. They've done some exercise. So let's just talk about a plain average, right? Right. What I usually ask of that type of athlete is, you know, during the first three or four weeks or even first couple of months that you're coming in here, you should always be walking out of the gym saying I could have done a little bit more. You're leaving something on the table. I want you to experience the movements at an appropriate load and appropriate speed, but I do not want you to go too hard, too fast.

Starting point is 00:08:30 And that's a conversation that I think coaches need to be having with the members on a one-on-one basis and really guiding that person to understand that they have to learn first. They have to understand how to move their body through space. They have to get exposure not only to the movements, but the style of training. And it doesn't mean that they're not going to get a workout. They're not going to sweat, but it certainly means that they're not going to be writhing on the floor in a ball of pain. And that's a really, really dangerous position to put somebody who's never done this style of training through before.

Starting point is 00:09:03 Specifically with higher complexity movements. Specifically with higher complexity movements. Specifically with higher complexity movements, but lower complexity movements can be just as damaging, right? You put somebody through a workout that's got 150 wall balls at, you know, even at a lighter weight, and they've never been used to that type of volume or that type of speed that they're doing the repetitions at, that person's not walking the next day. No. And I think for some people listening, if you're that type of person who gets fired up on that, right? Like, Oh dude, couldn't get off the toilet today. It was a great workout. It's like, okay, well that's, that's some people feel that way. Right? I mean, I'm probably more on that side, right? But then you have others who need to recognize you can't

Starting point is 00:09:41 place your personal desire on the overarching population if you want to run a successful business. Injury aside, some people look at this overwhelming soreness as an injury, right? It's affecting the way they move, the way they whatever, and you could actually turn somebody off from never coming back into your gym again. And so what I really liked about what you said is, and I think each person needs to have a personal conversation one-on-one with someone, which is kind of how we onboard people, right? When you onboard a new member, they can come in for our 30 minute class or 45 minute class, or they can come in for privates. And I think it's a nice way to, to interact with someone and let them know that we're on a fitness journey for life. We're not trying just to do this for a month

Starting point is 00:10:22 or two months or six months. So if you start off slower to develop proficiencies and understand where you're at, I think that's a great place to start with just having a personal conversation. I totally agree with you. I think that's an, an really important underlying element to scaling in general is that this is not a, I have a cheat sheet on my wall to know exactly what, oh, you're X weight. You've never worked out for X years. You're going to do X reps. That's not how it works, man. It's got to be a decision that you are making in concert with the athlete based on too many

Starting point is 00:10:59 factors that you could ever list out in order to make a chart applicable, right? It's got to take into account their past. It's got to take into account their experience. It's got to take into account how they're feeling that day, mentally, emotionally, physically, all of those kinds of things, preexisting injuries. What else have they been doing? What did they do the day before? What have they been doing generally to work on that movement to this day? All of those things, and as you get more experience as a coach, you work through those elements very quickly in your head. But all of those things and a whole other list of other ones need to come into the equation

Starting point is 00:11:41 when you're determining scaling options for the athletes. And equally important, like we said before, what is the intended stimulus of the workout, right? Yeah. Are you trying to go fast, slow, long, short, but let's talk about when you have a new member come in the door. And I think this is an area that our gym and most gyms can improve upon, right? Is, is tracking and because there's a fine line. If you make it too difficult to enroll where you have a long questionnaire with all these different things, maybe people get turned off.

Starting point is 00:12:12 They don't want to enroll in your business. But if you don't have any type of, you know, specific protocol for new members, that becomes tough too. So, I mean, do you think that the real conversation about scaling actually starts with onboarding? Yes.

Starting point is 00:12:29 That you have to address scaling and onboarding, in my opinion. Because I don't care if your onboarding program is three months long or three minutes long. You're going to get athletes that graduate that. If you don't cover scaling, they're going to go into class the next day and not know what to do when something shows up that they don't have experience doing or they have no business doing.

Starting point is 00:12:54 So at NC Fit, and you and I have seen every type of on-ramp fundamentals program that you could ever imagine. We've seen ones that are one month long. We've seen ones that are two weeks long. You've seen ones that you have to show up every day. You can pick and choose which days you come. You've seen deep end method. They all have their pros and cons. But what we landed on as a business here is that our on-ramp program

Starting point is 00:13:19 or fundamentals is two days, two personal sessions. I know that sounds short to begin with, but we have a really detailed outline of what we're looking to cover in those sessions with the athlete. And it is much more about landing core concepts and having them get a basic understanding for core movement than teaching them everything under the sun. Because if it's two weeks long or two months long,

Starting point is 00:13:45 you could teach them something. They're still going to fucking forget it the first time they walk into class anyway. And for what we were looking to do, what we wanted to do was have the athletes graduate this course and have a really good understanding of what to do when they walk into class the next day and not be afraid to ask the coach questions, not be afraid to say, Hey, I'm new. I don't know what this movement is. Not, not be afraid to say, all right, it says that on the board for that weight. I probably know I got to take a couple of steps back because I'm just learning. Right. And you could do that just through, you know, good conversation for a few days. I think this is a really cool topic.

Starting point is 00:14:26 So we started off, you know, obviously scaling is the conversation, but I feel like you can't even get to scaling until you first identify the on-ramping process. And as MDV said, when we first started, we did privates, like three of them because we didn't have that many members. So I just did it with everybody. Then as you grow and you get a larger audience, sometimes you started saying, wow, we're going to influx of 30 members a month. That's a lot of privates. So we started doing, you know, on ramps that were at 6.30 PM. But then when we started saying is, man, I'm having an on ramp at 6.30 PM that has two people in it, but I have a 6.30 PM class that has 30 people in it. What's

Starting point is 00:15:06 maybe better use of my resources as a gym is to double staff the 6.30 class and take those three people from the on-ramp program and get them into some other time. And like you said, we've done one month long, two weeks long. We've done Monday through Thursday. We've done all different types of things. And I don't know if our current solution is perfect, but what I do know is I've seen a lot of different on-ramps go down. And the person who comes in that has challenged with movements on day one is probably not going to get to be proficient in two days, three days, or even three weeks. It's important that that person recognizes the overall big picture, right?

Starting point is 00:15:48 That they understand what we're trying to shoot for. And then it's the coach's responsibility on a daily basis from there on out to ensure that they're providing the tools to improve and become finally proficient. I think is what we've realized as a business is that, you know, does that make, do you get what I'm trying to say there?

Starting point is 00:16:07 You're just trying to develop the baseline. Yeah. This is the way that we approach it. And there's a myriad of other ways that you can approach it. And the example that you gave, that individual who walks in who doesn't know their ass from their elbow, right? Are they going to get better in three months than two days? Of course. Right. Of course they are. But you have to, as a business owner, in my opinion, you know, weigh what are the pros and cons of a three month on-ramp versus a one week on-ramp versus a two day or whatever you want to run. And as long as you're okay with understanding that, yeah, after, you know, a couple of weeks of these people going through these classes, I start to see people, a couple of them drop off and they lose interest. And a couple of them left who have joined a gym down the road who gets them into classes a little bit sooner. If you're okay with that, that's fine.

Starting point is 00:16:57 Run whatever type of on-ramp courses you want. But no matter which type you run, you have to land core concepts with these people. You have to. So I want to talk about core concepts. Before we get there, though, you touched base a little bit on business, so I just wanted to kind of pack that in a little bit. The reason why at our gym,

Starting point is 00:17:16 if someone calls and says, hey, I want to join NC Fit, they could join any NC30 class, which is our least complex, least varied, but still a very powerful workout NC30, but doesn't have complex gymnastics or complex weightlifting. Yeah. No barbell, no barbell. They can come in for NC45, which has a fundamental strength lift followed by some type of conditioning. Again, no complex gymnastics, no complex weightlifting. We have though introduced the

Starting point is 00:17:39 barbell. If they decide they want to come in for an NC 60 class, correct me if I'm wrong. These are pre-existing, a lot of experience in something else, right? Particularly CrossFit or strength conditioning training. Yep. Right. Um, or they come in for those two privates. Yes. So the reason why we have it that way is that we wanted to be able to get people in the door as quickly as possible and break down the barrier. So, Hey, you know, I want to join a class. Okay, great. Come in for any NC30, NC45, or let me set you up with two privates. And from a financial perspective, when they pay for those two privates, they also get their first month as a part of that.

Starting point is 00:18:17 Is that the way it works? They get, if they end up joining as a member, that the cost of the two privates comes off of their first full month. Right. Okay. And so that's just what we do. Now we have to bridge the gap between as a business trying to get people in the door, right. But also as a business trying to sustain good quality environments, if someone comes in and the coach is spending all the time with them, then how about the other people's experience? So when you talk about developing this kind of baseline, this, this prerequisite, what type of things are we doing in the thirties and forties fives to prepare them if they want to come in for more complex or the NC 60 privates, what kind of things are we breaking

Starting point is 00:18:58 down? Cause this lays the foundation for everything else we do as a, as a company, right? I mean, as a coaching organization. Yeah. So the reason that we, uh, allow individuals with, um, not a tremendous amount of CrossFit or functional training experience to, to hop into an NC 30 or an NC 45 is because you can very easily, uh, scale those workouts back. And you can have a conversation with the individual about, you know, this is a workout that has these movements. Have you had any exposure to them before? What are you used to doing? What style training? And typically those classes, like we had just said, they're a little bit more simple than what you might find in NC 60, but of course, NC 60 can be simple because it's the whole range. It's very simple to very complex.

Starting point is 00:19:46 Everything, you got to be ready for it all. You also have a little bit more of a kind of a limited class environment sometimes. Although our NC45s and 30s are getting bigger and bigger, the amount of athletes that you're working with in those classes usually ranges from like 8 to 15, right? Yeah, at the high end. At the high end. Right. And you're not dealing with as complex movements. So when you're teaching and when you're working with the athletes, the risk, quote unquote, is not as high as if you were teaching 8 to 15 athletes the muscle up or the squat snatch or X, Y, or Z, right? You're able to still give the majority of the class

Starting point is 00:20:25 or the people who are there who are your members, you're still able to give them attention and time and you're still able to introduce this beginner because everybody is understanding of the environment that they're in. That's one way to approach it, right? You can approach it, like I said before, a number of other ways

Starting point is 00:20:45 we've had a lot of success we've been approaching it recently i like it i'm a fan of it yeah i mean because again we we on this podcast especially mdv we just preach we just share things that we have going on right and we're not saying it's perfect but this is what we've been doing it's been working pretty darn well so yep but it's imperfect as well like of course a like let's take, for example, the two private sessions that you're going to get with those coaches. Uh, we have an outline, we have content that we want those coaches to impart upon the member who's taking those two sessions, but it's just two, one hour sessions. So obviously when that person comes in, uh, day one of, uh, whatever class that they're going to be taking, there is a chance that something was either missed or not talked about in enough detail, or they see a movement

Starting point is 00:21:33 that potentially is very scary to them that they, regardless of what was said to the athlete during the one-on-ones, that all of a sudden everything goes out the window, right? Let's take, for example, rope climb. You come into a class. It doesn't matter sometimes what you tell somebody about, hey, no worries. You'll be fine. Talk to the coach. No matter if you see a movement up there that looks heavy or something you've never done before, just go up and ask, hey, what should I be doing for today? And the coach more than likely is going to come over and tell you also or talk to you about what you should be doing. Sometimes people's own emotions get in the way. They get too scared, too overwhelmed, and they go either clam up or they try something that they shouldn't be trying.

Starting point is 00:22:20 But that's the minority of situations. The vast majority of situations are we've created dialogue with the athletes. We have an understanding that they are graduating from these two on-ramp sessions with an incomplete education. You're going to work on movements that you know first, and you're going to get better at those. And then the movements that you don't know, you're going to start off with building blocks, and then you're going to add pieces to them. And eventually you're going to be able to do those movements down the road. Some of them might take longer. Some of them might get right away. It's essentially a breakdown of mechanics, consistency, intensity, and really getting into a nuanced discussion with the athletes about what that means, right? Those are the two days. Yeah. And then I think, I think you're, you're hitting on such powerful stuff. I think for any

Starting point is 00:23:16 coach listening, it's really important that all of our, all of our members are on journeys and, but it starts with developing a conversation with them and you could show them how to overhead squat. You could show them how to snatch. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've shown, shown, shown someone how to snatch maybe, I don't know, 10 times and they'll still come in and not necessarily know what that movement is. Right. And that's okay. It's okay. We are professional coaches. These guys are professional at something else. And so it's important that we recognize that.

Starting point is 00:23:50 I think that's really important that we develop a good conversation that they're okay to come up to you, be like, hey, I'm not familiar with this movement. Which brings me to another thing. You know, we as an organization have spent a lot of time trying to put our coaches in the best position to perform the best on the floor, but also provide tools for our members. Right. And I think that what MDV is

Starting point is 00:24:11 alluding to with, Hey, you have the thirties, the forties, fives, you have the, you have the two day kind of developing an understanding, but every single day, every single member of ours also gets a daily athlete video. And those daily athlete videos, if you're a gym out there and you're not at the scale that we're working on, it probably won't work for you to go film daily athlete videos, but it is something to think about because it has been super useful. How many times do you have people come into the gym and they're getting ready for a workout and they understand better how to attack it, what the movements are because we prep them through our app. Yeah. Yeah. The, the, you had made a comment, uh, about two minutes ago about

Starting point is 00:24:51 like athletes not understanding a movement, no matter how many times you've shown it to them or talk to them about it. Jason happens all the time. I'm talking with members who have been here for five, six years. They, they don't remember everything. And I don't even know if they even care. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It's not like they're a bad person because they don't remember. It's fine. But the videos that they're viewing, before they get into the workout, they're seeing

Starting point is 00:25:16 a really good demonstration of the movement. They're watching it done in a controlled environment where the athlete is not moving completely out of control with their shirt off, spitting as they're like stepping away from the bar and doing the classic Kalipa competition. Of course, of course. But they're also getting a breakdown of some of the key things that you need to think about when you're performing the movement and not necessarily talking to them in language that they wouldn't understand, but just like layman's terms, what are you doing in this movement? And then what are you looking at for this workout based on the loading, the volume,

Starting point is 00:25:53 where it comes in the workout. And, you know, for us, it's, it's a, you know, two to four minute video. Uh, it's really powerful for the members, but those people out there who are like, Hey, that would be great. One, of course you can create your own content too. You can look on YouTube or Google and there's an endless, endless amount of material that you can find it. Yeah. And you can always attach. I mean, so back in the day when we had WordPress blogs for those old school owners listening, um, that was pretty popular, right? You just attach a little link. Nowadays, because of social media, different things, or private Facebook groups, I just think as an owner,

Starting point is 00:26:36 one of the things that's helped us and as a coach is providing tools before they even hit the location, right? It's like when you go out to an event, and I was doing a half marathon not that long ago, and there was email after email after email about this is where you line up. This is where you go. This is how you do this. And I think what they're trying to do is they're trying to mitigate the amount of people that just get there and have no idea what's going on. And if we could do that as coaches to prepare them as much as possible before that class, hey, we need you here 10 minutes beforehand.

Starting point is 00:26:59 This is an app you can review for the daily video. If you don't have an app like we do, go find on YouTube or call us and we can help you out. I mean, these are just tools that are setting you up and your coaches up for a premium experience. And, you know, again, it continues to follow through with this idea of scaling that if we're really out there trying to provide the best experience to our members, it starts with the original conversation, those two day format that we talked about what we do. Then it transfers into the daily videos, providing them tools on what does it actually look like

Starting point is 00:27:28 they're trying to do today and uh the the videos are really good for what we do in our industry because it's so dynamic in nature you know equating it to jujitsu when a coach says to me something jujitsu i don't really know what they're talking about but they show me a video it's a lot easier to understand what's going on right for sure um and then from there when they actually come in the door then it's the coach's responsibility to ensure that they're they're getting scaled right yeah and they're they're getting what they need out of that class yep and that's where coaches need to be really keenly aware of who is in the room what is their experience level what type of injuries are you working with have you worked with this athlete before when was the last time you work with them and that's why it's so important

Starting point is 00:28:10 to me like every single time i sound like a broken record when i coach a class sometimes because i've heard it before but dude like it for me it's like i have to go through that because yeah i might not be coaching athletes as regularly as some of our head coaches are or full-time coaches on the floor. But I see them around the gym. I want to make sure, one, I want to make sure they know my name. Two, I know their name so that the conversation isn't awkward where it's like, bro, friend, whatever. Create that dialogue. I always write my name on the board.

Starting point is 00:28:41 I always ask for names. Two, I always ask for injuries or conditions that i need to be aware of and i don't necessarily have them reveal that to the group while we're all standing there like somebody's like oh yeah like uh i blew out my yeah whatever yeah i've had it happen one time like hey guys any injuries you know about and one lady's like well my left calf hurts and so it was like well my shoulder i'm like and then they just kept like everybody's like well I'm a little hurt over here. So is there a way that you describe it

Starting point is 00:29:07 that's a little bit more like, hey, if you have something that's going to... What's your original flow? Like, hey guys, I'm MDV. This is my name on the board. Just so you guys remember. Then from there, what? So always introduce myself.

Starting point is 00:29:17 Always try to either get names before class or get them, if it's a smaller class, get them while they're at the whiteboard. Write them up on the whiteboard if you're afraid you're going to forget them because like you can always have that in your back pocket. You can go over and look at the whiteboard and remember the person's name if you forgot it. But when I asked for injuries, I always say, Hey guys, if anybody has any sort

Starting point is 00:29:36 of injuries or conditions that you need to make me aware of, make sure you give me the high sign before we get too deep into the warmup. We're going to be doing two or three minutes on the bike over here during that time. Raise your hand. Let me know what's going on. And I'll talk to you. We'll get you a safe and effective workout today. Okay. So I'd like to tighten that up for a minute. So you, you get the class moving, which I think is very important because a lot of times, you know, people are coming in at 6am. They want to get moving, right? I mean, you know, spend a few minutes at the board, talk about the workout, whatever, but then we got to get going. And if you're having off conversations with another person while everybody else is just

Starting point is 00:30:08 standing around, not only does that make them feel uncomfortable for that person, but it's also uncomfortable for the rest of the class. And so what you're recommending is, Hey, get on a piece. Assuming the, the, the introductory to the warmup is some type of cardiovascular equipment. You could just simply go over there and talk to them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:30:23 Usually, um, you know, the way that we build our warmups, they're not going to start off with something that's like crazy complex or heavy loaded. Like we're, we're moving either our body weight or a very light load or we're on a, uh, monostructural element. Um, and usually if there's something really serious going on, like that person's going to throw up their hand like pretty quickly. So the majority of class is going to go and get started with what they're going to be doing for the warmup or that first element. And then you're going to be having this quick conversation with this individual, finding out what's going on with them that you need to be aware of. And this lays a foundation from the scaling perspective, because not only does it tell

Starting point is 00:31:01 you who's having a challenge, which is obviously very important, but it also indicates the rest of the class is feeling pretty good about where they're at from a physical perspective, right? You're assuming in your head that, okay, well, if this person says to me and no one else did, you know, that's another really critical. And I know this conversation is getting a little tangential, but it's great because this is, this is really, really important stuff. It's another really important function of the warmup, not just to get the athletes, you know, core blood temperature up, core body temperature up, you know, start to move around,

Starting point is 00:31:30 get moved joints through full range of motion, but your movement evaluating during this point. So if somebody doesn't say something to you, but you see them adjusting a movement or you see them moving or wincing or things like that, you pay close attention during the warmup, you're able to now go and have a conversation with like, hey, you know, what's going on? I saw that you, you know, you're grabbing

Starting point is 00:31:47 your knee while you're squatting. Is everything okay? Um, it's really, really critical that you facilitate or you open the door for the conversation at the beginning of class, because if you just start class, somebody who has something going on, they might not feel comfortable or they might not know that they can go up to you and say, Hey, listen, I don't know what I'm going to do today because X, Y, or Z is really hurting me. Yeah. You're opening up the door for that good conversation, which also starts with those two one-on-one sessions. You're letting people know, Hey, this was going to happen in your classes. You're going to have a coach that's going to be there if you have a question concern, but now you're even backing it up even

Starting point is 00:32:26 more because they're coming in for their first class, let's just say, and you're opening that door for that awesome conversation. So as people are warming up, you're looking for movement faults, challenges, issues you might come up with. And you're like, Oh, okay. We should already know before the workout starts, what we need to do to scale some every almost everybody in the room. Yeah. You should have a pretty good idea. You should at least be working through some stuff in your head. Right. Um, and you know, if it's, um, there's a few ways to approach this, right? Because a lot of times if it's, let's say a more complex movement, let's just take a kipping pull up and it's not super complex, but let's just take that movement. You're going to already know in your head, like what scales you might want to use for that day based on the volume

Starting point is 00:33:12 based on the, uh, where it falls in the workout based on the other equipment that's being used. Right. Um, but you should always have a plan about how you want to scale, right? Generally for that day, have an understanding of what those things are you're working through in your head. But then when you're going and you're actually prescribing scaling options for people or having that conversation with them, you got to be asking them what have they done recently in order to work on this movement, right? Because what you don't want to do is just blanket scale everybody. Blanket. asking them what have they done recently in order to work on this movement, right? Because

Starting point is 00:33:45 what you don't want to do is just blanket scale everybody. Blanket. All right. Everybody today is grabbing bands. Everybody go grab a red band. Right. Everybody today is doing ring rows. Everybody go get a set of rings. And there might be some days where that might be appropriate. I know. But this is the issue that I have with these programs that strictly prescribe scaling options based on levels of experience is like, if you're always grabbing the red band, you're never graduating up above that. And you shouldn't always be grabbing the red band. You should be doing other things. You should be doing ring rows. You should be doing mixed grip pull-ups. You should be doing jumping pull-ups some days. You should be doing bent over rows. You should be doing simulated lap pull-downs.

Starting point is 00:34:30 There's so much stuff that you could be doing to work on this movement that if you're always doing one thing, that you as a coach are hindering that athlete from progressing. Right. Right. Yes. And as a coach, if you're always looking at someone and scaling them the same way, well, yeah, not only are you hindering them, but you're also, you need to be open-minded as a coach in a variety of different ways to scale the same movement and provide a stimulus that you're looking for. And if you go into it saying, Hey, I might do this for everybody. Well, maybe that wasn't the best option for that person that day. You know, and, and, and like you said, having a conversation, I think is really important. I mean, I've been in situations before where I would say, Hey, look for today's workout, the goal time is 10 to 15 minutes, right? Or whatever. But we've been pushing you. You've been going, whatever today, if you want to go a little bit longer, more like 25 minutes,

Starting point is 00:35:16 we'll be okay with you kind of scaling this other way. Just know it's not going to give you that cardio, you know, it's just gonna be a different type of stimulus. And every now and then it's not going to give you that cardio you know it's just gonna be a different type of stimulus and every now and then it's okay to switch it up and let that person kind of work through this different form of a pull-up for example yeah for sure yep there are certainly days when uh you know let's like take for example switch the movement up let's say it's a heavy front squat for uh you know reps or whatever if you're always just scaling down the loading for that person, and you're like, Oh, you know, you can't do 185. So like, let's bring that way down. That individual is now never getting exposure to a heavy bar in the front of the body, right? And they might want to experience what it's like to have the bar across their shoulders and have it

Starting point is 00:36:02 be heavy. And if their body can support, their body can support the mechanics and they can keep their midline solid as they're moving through the range of motion and they're not, knees aren't crashing in, a good option for that day might be having the person do a heavier load at less reps. And it might adjust the stimulus of the workout a little bit. But at that point, I think that you get more benefit out of switching up your scale for that individual than always just giving them the same thing over and over and over again. Being dynamic, I think, is really important in scaling. Yeah, and I think it also shows your athletes you care. I actually think being a dynamic coach and there's, there's times where you might try too much to be too unique and innovative or wherever, you know, sticking with some of the classic fundamental scales doesn't, you know, could always be good. However, I think people

Starting point is 00:36:55 want to know that, you know, one of the things that I like to do, and I know you do this too, is let's just right before three, two, one go hits, I'm going to walk around the room and beg, Hey, John, are you good with this? Hey, Sally, do you know what we're trying to get out of today? Hey, you know, Elizabeth, you know, are we good with this weight? Like, but I would go around and I'm making sure. And through the process, I'm guiding them on where I want them to be. But before the workout starts, I always do one more check. Just, Hey, are we good? And they know what I want and I know what they want, right? Like, because we have the conversation. I hate today. This person's looking for this or, or Hey, I'm asking them to finish in this time. So I know I need to scale it down from.

Starting point is 00:37:30 Yeah. But I think that's it. That's like the key. And then boom, then once three, two, one go hits, you're just there making sure people are moving safely, maybe pulling back some weight here and there, but for the most part should be pretty set. Yes. That's a really, really good point. And

Starting point is 00:37:45 during my introduction, when I'm going through a workout, I'm often describing in like a Cliffs Notes type of format, what the intended stimulus for that day is right for those movements as we're working through it. So that the athletes are prepped and I'm giving them the understanding at the beginning of the workout that how this should feel generally, right? And that might not mean that's what they're going to be doing for today. But throughout the class, as we're moving through the teaching, the warm-up, the teaching portion, maybe the kind of skill portion before the workout, you're reaffirming things and now finalizing things with the athlete.

Starting point is 00:38:28 And you're right. What you shouldn't be doing at 3-2-1-go is all of a sudden it's a disaster and you've got to switch 20 barbells in a class of 22, right? Right. That means you have made an egregious mistake at some point. You have either failed to describe what you're looking for out of the movement for that day or you have failed to communicate to the athletes individually what they should be doing based on the stimulus, right? I do not like when I see an athlete strip weight off within the first, really at any point in the workout.

Starting point is 00:39:04 I think that on me at this point in the workout. I think that on me at this point in my career, I'm really hard on myself. Like there are times when I miss things. Yes. But I try to get everybody set with what they should be doing for the workout before the workout starts. Yeah. And if I do have to scale somebody in the workout because they bit, they bit off more than they can chew or, you know, X, Y, or Z happen. That's, that's more so on me at that point. I usually put the onus on myself. I'm like, shit, I got to remember that next time that, you know, I, I, I misjudged this during the teaching portion or whatever. And there's so many factors that there's a ton of, cause you're watching someone move and you're like, man, that person's moving really well. I think we could load

Starting point is 00:39:44 them up, but maybe, you know, psychologically person is moving really well. I think we could load them up. But maybe psychologically, you're just not there. Yeah. Or three rounds in or three rounds in. After X movements or whatever. But I think taking the onus and taking that onto yourself, I think, is really valuable. And that's something that we were talking about the other day was that as a coach, I try and take responsibility. If I'm sharing insights to them and they're not getting it, it's my fault, not theirs.

Starting point is 00:40:07 Because we're the one trying to share information. And instead of getting frustrated with this person, you should take that responsibility to try and communicate in a different way. And the stimulus or the scaling is a really good thing to think about is that when that workout starts, if you're having to watch people just really not hitting the time domain you're looking for, not moving the way you want them to at the speed you want them to, then you got to, instead of looking at your athletes and saying, man, these people are all doing this. Well, if it's the sum of, and it's more than just some, then maybe that was your responsibility leading up to it. That's causing these challenges. And that's something I think about a lot too, to your point. For sure. If it's, if it's that egregious where you're like, whoa, what is going on? That's more than likely your fault, right? If it's one or's that egregious where you're like whoa what is going on that's more than likely your

Starting point is 00:40:46 fault right if it's one or two you know you know maybe you can you get learning experience of course you can say hey listen i probably should have uh done x y or z before class something that really is interesting at this point too because i've had this encounter a bunch of times and i know i've messed it up early in my career it's's like, you got an athlete who's like, no, I want to do this today. Right. And, you know, I want to do X weight and I'm going to get after it today. And you're the coach and you're standing there like,

Starting point is 00:41:12 the better option for you is to adjust this weight down. What do you do at that point? Right. I think that's something that coaches struggle with a whole lot. It comes up a lot. And I've had it happen before too. And I think it's just a good conversation. Like, hey, look, if you want to do this at 225, it's going to take you a whole lot. It comes up a lot and I've had it happen before too. And I think it's just a good conversation. Like, Hey, look, if you want to do this at two 25, it's going to

Starting point is 00:41:27 take you a long time. But if that's what you need today, if you want to mentally grind it out, push yourself, whatever, then you go for it. Right. And then sometimes like, Hey man, no, like that's not what we're looking for today. We need you to move fast. Let's go ahead and like, and I think it's just a good conversation. But I think for every one that we give, we probably don't give seven of them. You know what I mean? Like not today, not today, not today. Okay. Yeah. All right. Today, you know, I agree with you there. I think a lot of times if it's a real safety concern, if you're like, this person's going to get hurt. Yeah. That's a different conversation. You really, you have to say, Hey, listen,

Starting point is 00:42:01 I understand you. You really want to get after it today. Today's not the day to do it though. Today we got, we got to pull the barbell back a little bit. You know, I saw how you're moving, leading up to work out. This is not going to be a good experience for you. It's not gonna be fun. Yeah. The other side of this is if somebody is on the borderline, you're like, you know, they got the mechanics to support it. You know, maybe as they get tired, it's going to go out the window and they are hard pressed to be like, listen, I want to do this today. You might let them get after it, man. And they might learn their lesson a little bit with the heavier weight on the bar. Yeah. Or maybe it's super rewarding for them and they leave there and they feel a lot of more self-confidence. I mean, I can't tell you how many times though I've seen people just flailing for a

Starting point is 00:42:41 muscle up over and over and over again. And they're pushing, they're trying, and I want to be supportive, but eventually I just walk over like, Hey man, we're going to, we need to scale today. You know? And I think that becomes, because then when someone becomes like that, that's, that's really important that you recognize as a coach, like, Hey, we let that person take their shot at it. But now it's at a point where I think they're actually putting themselves at risk and their ego or – and myself included, right? Yeah. Starts to become a little bit too big.

Starting point is 00:43:07 We need to pull them back. And sometimes they actually even – if you ask them after the workout, they're actually grateful the coach came in and slowed them down or moved them out because they knew they needed it but they needed someone else to come and validate it. So that's a whole scaling thing in itself is dealing with your athlete's emotions and psychology. Yeah. This is a big part of the conversation this is i think this is like more cultural within your gym is like trying to dismiss the stigma of scaling an rx rx as being this thing that's on a pedestal that is only reserved for you know the super elite and you're the RX athletes over here. And, uh, that scaling being something that's like a dirty word or something that people look at as being, uh, underneath them or beneath them. I think that that is really not the best way.

Starting point is 00:43:57 And it's a whole thing. You know, what's really interesting though is what is harder for you grace at 135 or grace at 185 there's 185 well okay that's a nice example but like i know what you're saying a lot of times right people want to go heavier because they think it's whatever but it actually slows them down the workout so the the example that i think you're looking i, I know exactly what you're saying, Fran. Fran at 95 pounds for a gentleman who, let's say, can only do four reps at 95 pounds before they got to put the barbell down, take five steps back, hook grip their freaking shorts, breathe, look around, go back to the bar. The workout at 75 pounds for that individual in two sets broken up the 21s is probably much harder for them,

Starting point is 00:44:46 much more beneficial for them. But at the same time, right? Like there's something to be said, like the one out of seven times you might give that guy, but that might be the one out of seven times, right? You might be like, Hey man, today you get this right. But for the most part, you need to make sure that they're ensuring that they're developing on this curriculum. And, and that's why this whole idea of scaling, it's not a bad word. If anything, you as a coach are scaling to actually probably make the workout harder for them. I mean, depending on how you look at it, right. But if you, if you don't scale it, they're going to be standing there for a long time. They're gonna be doing things that they're probably not necessarily shouldn't be doing. I think it's really important. You know, this

Starting point is 00:45:23 conversation really started off with this idea that it starts off before they even walk in. When they walk into your gym, you set the expectation. You have a conversation with them about what does your gym stand for from a scaling, from a developmental, from a journey perspective. And I think from in the beginning, every new member that you start in your gym, if they know that you're looking out for their best interest, you genuinely care. And that you don't care if they get fit by tomorrow, you care about them being fit for as long as possible, right? They're trying to amrap the hell out of this thing for the rest of your life, right? You want to get in workouts forever. And if you get injured or if you get burnt out, that's not leading towards that. But starting off with that conversation,

Starting point is 00:46:00 I just think it's so powerful and so important. And I think that's an area we miss. Yeah. And really like having really meaningful conversations with your classes at certain points about what is scaling all about or what is adjusting workouts all about? What's the reason we do that? And not putting RX necessarily on this pedestal for people and letting them know. A lot of times this is something that I like to do is letting the athletes know that like I scale workouts too. I still scale workouts all the time, right? Like that's something that I think is powerful for them because if they look at you and most athletes in your gym for your coaches are looking up to your coaches as examples of what they want to be like. And this is a whole other conversation about whether your coaches are acting the fool or they're actually being respectful of that really important role, right? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:46:58 They're demonstrating the program the way you want to be demonstrated. They're eating the right way. They're acting the right way. Members look up to coaches. Right, of course and if the coach can break it down for the member and be like hey listen you know in today's workout i'd be scaling the sucker down or adjusting the weight down in order to do x y or z you know a lot of times those those people who are in the class are going to go oh you know what i should probably do it too i should probably yeah because you make it okay you humanize it you

Starting point is 00:47:21 humanize it and you know we i want to talk to MDV more about, you know, taking coaches, taking classes. Um, I want to talk about to MDV on, on future episodes, but a number of different things that happen in our gym. And when it comes to scaling, I think what, what we're really talking about is this is a much more holistic approach to it. Like is there actual tangible items that we provide to our coaches to scale? Of course, that's a prerequisite. Like, Hey, if you're, if you can't do a pull-up, well, here are some options. If you can't do a clean and jerk, well, here are some options. If you have a shoulder injury, here are some options. Like those are just like, those are just there, but they're not useful. If you can't have a solid conversation with your athletes about

Starting point is 00:48:02 what you're trying to accomplish as an organization in the first place, which is I think the kind of like the hit home moment for this episode, which is learning how to speak with your members and making sure your coaches learn how to speak with their members about the power of, of, of scaling and why it's so valuable and how, how scaling arrives in every area of our lives. And And in the gym is just one expression of it. So why would we not be doing it in the gym too? Yep. And destigmatizing it. One option is not better than the other option.

Starting point is 00:48:32 RX is not better than scale. It's just not. It's not. What we're looking at is we're looking at a journey. It's not a destination. It's not something where it's like you have arrived when you're doing all the workouts RX. Like you're never there. Yeah. Nobody's ever there. No. Anyway, it's the journey, man. I couldn't agree with you more guys. If you've been listening to this and you know,

Starting point is 00:48:54 the, one of the tools that we did bring up was the, the videos before the, the class, I have to say, we probably started that about a year and a half ago. Yeah, about a year and a half ago. It's been instrumental for our athletes coming in more prepared for class, and it's really helped our coaches. If you want to check out what we're doing, check out the NC Fit Collective. It's our session plan, programming, business tools, and we also have daily coaching and athlete video. And you can check that out.

Starting point is 00:49:22 Just email us, right? Hit us up, collective at nc.fit. And if you haven't tried it, but you've been listening to this podcast, also email collective at nc.fit for why you don't want to try it. Because I am curious. I believe we're putting out such a great product because of our scale. I believe we're providing tools for owners because of our scale and because of actually putting it into so many gyms, why wouldn't they at least try it? And if you haven't, let us know why. Cause I'm curious about that feedback to collective at nc.fit. This is nothing but positive. I'm just curious how we can improve and, and grow that, that network. Well, MDV, I think scaling,

Starting point is 00:49:59 we could talk about for hours and hours and hours. Um, let's dive into another subject soon. And, um And for everybody listening, get up, get after it, keep doing what you got to do and keep rising the tides. Thanks, Go Baby.

Barbell Shrugged - Let’s Talk Scaling - Business of Fitness #73

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