Barbell Shrugged - Logan Gelbrich: Going Right — The Bledsoe Show #130

Episode Date: April 19, 2019

Logan Gelbrich feels right at home coaching at DEUCE Gym. With a background in collegiate (University of San Diego) and professional (San Diego Padres) baseball, Logan is used to high performance, heavy workloads, and accountability. Luckily, Logan was blessed enough to work with world renowned strength and conditioning coaches, sports psychologists, and nutritionists during his career. It’s during this time that the seeds were sown for the belief system that guides his coaching today. Forever a “student of the game,” Logan is always looking to strengthen and question his understanding of human movement and nutrition.   In this episode,  Logan dives into coaching athletes at different stages of development.   Minute Breakdown:   0 - 18 Logan discusses coaches having a hard time communicating and doing that one thing well.  Going down the rabbit hole of your craft is never going to be the interest of your clients. Understanding what it is to be a teacher.  Why we have the classic case of geniuses that can’t connect to the people.   18 –29  Getting different outcomes are about becoming that person. Authentically becoming that person but also becoming that person. Not staying where you are because you think that is where you are most authentic.   Changing beliefs one at a time rather than copying what others are doing.   29 - 42  Show people you messed up and what’s behind that. Showing people what they didn’t see before.  Human behavior and why things go poorly for us. What’s at the root cause. Most people go to work doing 2 full time jobs. One job is a full time job and the other job is covering their weaknesses they have.  Keeping from being exposed. How to get over that and lie to ourselves about the weaknesses. Using our weaknesses as a guide to the future better me.   42 – 50: Chose to be humble and shine bright lights.  Having a group where everyone is aligned in their desires.  Shifting cultures. Letting guards down, facing fears. Having fun while doing it.  Hedging against having experiences we want. 50 + Setting tones as a coach.  Understanding power and how it works. How to walk into a room and set the tone for a good experience.  You are competing against people who are so willing and brought into processes that you can't change not showing up and giving it your all. --------------------------------------------------- Show notes: https://shruggedcollective.com/tbs-gelbrich ---------------------------------------------------   ► Travel thru Europe with us on the  Shrugged Voyage, more info here: https://www.theshruggedvoyage.com/ ► What is the Shrugged Collective?  Click below for more info: https://youtu.be/iUELlwmn57o ► Subscribe to Shrugged Collective's Channel Here http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedSubscribe 📲 🎧 Listen to the audio version on the Apple Podcast App or Stitcher for Android Here- http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedApple http://bit.ly/BarbellShruggedStitcher Shrugged Collective is a network of fitness, health and performance shows that help people achieve their physical and mental health goals.  Usually in the gym, but outside as well. In 2012 they posted their first Barbell Shrugged podcast and have been putting out weekly free videos and podcasts ever since. Along the way we've created successful online coaching programs including The Shrugged Strength Challenge, The Muscle Gain Challenge, FLIGHT, Barbell Shredded, and Barbell Bikini. We're also dedicated to helping affiliate gym owners grow their businesses and better serve their members by providing owners tools and resources like the Barbell Business Podcast. Find Shrugged Collective and their flagship show Barbell Shrugged here: SUBSCRIBE ON ITUNES ► http://bit.ly/ShruggedCollectiveiTunes WEBSITE ► https://www.ShruggedCollective.com INSTAGRAM ► https://instagram.com/shruggedcollective FACEBOOK ► https://facebook.com/barbellshruggedpodcast TWITTER ► http://twitter.com/barbellshrugged

Let's get real. Our education system taught us to be employees, to get that corporate gig, work for 40 plus years, hope the market doesn't crash in the process so we can retire and do the things we really wanted to do our whole life, but when we're 70. So how does our education impact us as coaches and entrepreneurs who aren't doing the corporate gig? It doesn't help. And even worse, it hurts us. Everything we were taught about money is based on scarcity. It was based on the belief that you show up to a job and there will be a consistent flow of money, but not too much of it. Just enough. Your parents were scarce about it.

Your teachers in school were definitely scarce about it. And the only time they talked about it is when they complained that there was not enough. How do you think that impacted you? You weren't prepared to run your own game. You were prepared by people with the mindset of factory workers. Yeah, that's right. The education system was based on the industrial age and most of the systems around how to create more factory workers.

How do you get more freedom from this thinking? How do you break out of the trap? Well, if you're a coach, we tackle this in the Strong Coach program. We focus our attention on this issue specifically, and we help you transform your relationship to money. Like Becca, who started off the program afraid to charge more than $25 an hour for her coaching. She was taking clients at 5 a.m. for two hours, then taking her kids to school just to get back in the gym to coach. Then pick her kids back up and was barely making enough money to pay for child care, and her kids didn't get to see her very often. It was a bit of a mess. Early in the coaching process, we learned that she wanted to give her kids a better It was a bit of a mess. Early in the coaching process, we learned that

she wanted to give her kids a better life, to spend more time with them and give them all the opportunities she didn't have. By the end of the 90 days, she had the confidence to more than double her prices, charge her friends appropriately for her time, created boundaries in her schedule, and started selling packages that created sustainable and consistent income. She had more time and money to invest in her family. She has a better mom and a coach. She walks the talk and makes a difference with every person she interacts with. In less than two weeks, we begin the next class of the Strong Coach.

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We're about to open up our cognitive fitness program in Lifted. We're pushing. We're grinding. We're doing a thing. We're about to open up our cognitive fitness program, Enlifted. We're releasing our cognitive fitness assessment next week. You will be able to measure where you are and where you're going to be able to improve the areas of cognition that impact your ability as an athlete. Make sure you're on the list at Enlifted.me slash shrugged so that we can notify you as soon as we get it up. Again, that's enlifted.me slash shrugged. And we also have a workshop coming up in Venice, California, June 15, only 20 spots. So make sure you're on the Enlifted email newsletter list so we can get you notified of that. You can go find that at enlifted.me slash shrugged. All right, now for our sponsors.

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Use the code SHRUG for 15% off. All right, now we're going to get into our show with Logan Gelbrich. We break down coaching and how to approach athletes at different levels of development. I really enjoy this show. There really aren't that many coaches who can keep up with this type of conversation. This is next level shit.

You're going to learn a lot. Enjoy. Enjoy. Yeah, we're going to throw a party. Right now? This is it right now. Right now. Dropping it.

I feel like I'm there. We're going to throw a party. I haven't talked to Gary about it yet, but at the Human Garage, we're going to throw a party. Oh, cool. We talked about throwing a party. We haven't set a date yet, but I'm aiming for May or June.

Cool. So it's going to be fun. Yeah. So if you're listening. We'll take the skateboard down there. See what we can do. Hop in. Yeah.

Yeah, come hang out. It's going to be fun. If I'm invited. I'm going to DJ it. Are you? Yeah. You said something about DJing right before I hit record. I was like, oh, we should.

Instead of me telling you about it. We'll tell everybody about that. You're on the wheels of steel. Just laying it down. Having fun. Having fun. That's right. We were talking

and what I normally do is talk to somebody until we start talking right up until the show starts. Right. When the show starts, then I know. That's right. Talking about practitioners, talking about coaches who have a hard time communicating. Is that what you were about to get into?

Well, yeah. There's a little dichotomy there. Basically, to really do that thing well, and the example we were talking about is like a practitioner, like a body worker or something, same is true of coaches, in my opinion, we need to remember that the things that drive your mastery, learning the techniques, going down the rabbit holes of your craft, is not necessarily ever going to be the interest of the people that you're affecting and communicating to, your clients. Yeah. that you're affecting and communicating to your clients. And I think a younger or earlier stage understanding of what it is to be a teacher

is to mistake your interest for the interest of the people that you're communicating towards. So in a fitness example, it's like, if I didn't understand my job, I would confuse my job for this. I would say, you know, if I was good enough as a coach that I would coach you so well that you would care about the things that I care about.

You know? And, you know, let's do the CliffsNotes. That's not the deal. Yeah. You are in this person's life to communicate some sort of message to them, but the goal is not to enroll them in your thing. You know, you are a master of your craft, so they don't have to be. It's kind of a paradox to hold those two things in your head at once,

which is, yeah, I need to be an expert of this, a nerd of it. But that language, that vernacular, that interest is not at all the thing to communicate then to your audience. That's a mistake of the task, I think. And so this is the reason why we have the classic case of the genius that can't connect with the people. There's a mistake of of responsibility there you know and so is it the md that that is brilliant enough to do the research and also be able to communicate to the people that's a really valuable thing you know it's the reason why the experts are rarely the marketers as well yeah you know yeah i've run into so many coaches i've walked into uh garages i've walked into alleys and back doors and things that are way off the

beaten path and i get inside it's a little messy yeah and there's a fucking genius sitting in there coaching one or two people who are really committed, but their ability to impact a lot of people is completely diminished because of their inability to close that gap. And that's a, to me, that's a skill to be developed in itself. Oh, yeah. And I think it's magnified by a couple things. One is, and I was just thinking about this, let's take the genius, the person in the back alley who's at their edge, pioneering something new, like your friend down the street or any of these people, like Julian Pinault and folks like that, who are literally sorting their work as they go.

I was visualizing Julian as I was talking about that. And like you mentioned about your friend, if someone asks you, what is it that they do there? You say, well, I don't really know because every time I go back, it's changed and it's evolved, right? And I think in 2019, it's unique. This is what magnifies this issue is we're kind of brought along that process. Whereas, and this is just a guess I'm sort of making up live in the moment right now,

is years ago, outside the information age, someone just toils with their craft and then if and when the audience is ready or it's summed up and buttoned up enough as a theory with enough backing, then we sort of learn about it after all these years. Whereas right now, we watch these people go through iterations

and we join them in this thing because we can share everything. Yeah, I study business. One of the things I did that I didn't do, I didn't watch this series because I was interested in business. I watched this series

because it's entertaining. But Mad Men. Okay. It's all about how marketing, I mean, it's entertaining. But Mad Men. It's all about how marketing... I mean, it's about a lot of things. But one of the things if you're looking at it through the lens of business is how marketing evolved through

the 50s, 60s, 70s. In New York and then eventually here in LA. One of the things that I recognized from that era, and that would be our parents era is that people would produce a product and then they would go to a marketing firm and then they would say, help us sell this thing. Right. And that is, and there, there was almost no market testing to, to develop it. It was like, we just think this is a good idea and we're going to start developing it and then we're going to put it out there and see what happens. And there was very advertising in newspapers, some type of print ad. Or if you had a lot of money, you'd be on television or radio or something like that. And so there was very few brands that were capable.

And so they'd produce something, and then they would convince people they should buy it. Like, oh, there's this soda. You know, you got to buy this soda for these reasons. But you're right. In 2019, we get to be along for the journey. If people do it really well on Instagram, podcast, whatever, you can start letting people in on your process early on. I did that and it wasn't even intentional.

I was just doing it. Yep. doing it. And I know people have seen my process over time and it's cool because authenticity is also this thing that people want. Like, oh, I really want authenticity. And I think being able to watch somebody's journey over time gives that

authentic feel. That's what I was going to say. You know, it's because I've been able to observe your journey i feel like i know you and that's the thing that we want this magic word authenticity um now more than ever the creators are also the marketers or at least they're they're they're in the same room and conversation i never really thought about the madman example but as you were speaking about that maybe some of the upside of that time is that the makers got to keep their their uh their making duties pure because they were just in the design thing and then there's something i would imagine mentally freeing of contracting out the forward-facing expression of this product or service

to the market to a marketer. Just, hey, guys, sell it. If the numbers are good, you did great. If they're not good, you didn't do well. And then the maker is not in this juxtaposition of, there's the purity of what I made fighting against how I have to sell it. One of the classic examples is,

and I'm not going to know the details of names, but how toothpaste was blown up, whether that's Crest or the original tycoon of this toothpaste thing. How do you get people to have compliance around like think about that you you design toothpaste and and i don't know their desires but say the person who's most passionate about toothpaste is uh in that realm because of some sort of belief passion education surrounding like uh the dental world, right?

Yeah. Okay, like in their mind, I want to make something to increase the hygiene of this thing. It's very pure. It feels very pure. Well, the problem with toothpaste early on was compliance, right? Like how do you change the behavior of Americans by the millions to do this thing twice a day? And no one could crack the code on it.

And then this famous marketer whose name is eluding me right now, it's a classic case study, so it's an easy Google search, was able to crack the code on this compliance thing. And it was the experience of brushing your teeth had no reward, right? So you have... No immediate reward. Yeah, an expert telling you, if you do this thing once or twice a day, you'll have better, healthier teeth, and you don't have to do these, like,

cavity things down the road. But that wasn't convincing enough for compliance. So the thing that made toothpaste work, and you can make an argument, affects us still today, is the ingredient that makes it feel like that pepperminty, like that tingling thing. Yeah.

There's no active chemical or utilitarian reason for that in terms of the performance of actually cleaning your teeth. It's just a sensation in your mouth that makes it feel like you did something clean to it. I've also been told that 90% of the benefit of brushing your teeth, you would get without toothpaste at all. Right, it's the scrubbing.

Yeah, it's the scrubbing. So yeah, you put this thing in there that when you finish, you feel like, ah, my mouth, it feels clean and cool and my breath feels, right? When you finish, you feel like, ah, my mouth, it feels clean and cool. My breath feels... And that was the marketing mechanism that drove the sales of this thing. Now, if you're a purist in this dental thing, I could imagine that that would feel like... It's like these fucking idiots.

Is this unethical or is this like, this is not what I believe. This is like a trick. Right. But joke's on you. You know what I mean? But joke's on you. You sold. Well, you got to look at the end result. Right. Did people end up with cleaner teeth or not?

Right. And so it's like the, I guess you call it like, the behavior has to change. And that's part of the, that's taking a broader view, right? The narrow view is this is what works. The broader view is how do we get compliance. And there's so many short-sighted experts that are just almost at their worst taking pride in the struggle that they are an unrecognized genius because they're unwilling to recognize

the upside of these kinds of considerations. When, you know, ultimately, if you have something to say in the world, it seems like it would be of interest to you to find the best way to say it. And, you know, the movement world is classic, right? You have these people who are purists and they'll never sell out and whatever.

It's like, well, congratulations, you you're poor you're in a basement your car looks like uh you're a hoarder full of like newspapers and i guess you're the best weightlifting coach in the world but you know can't argue with results man weightlifting books pirate hat the dangly earring. Yeah. And today, in today's world, you have to, if you're running your own business, and I know a lot of coaches listen to this, you're an entrepreneur. Even if you're working at someone else's gym, you're, I know the gym owner, wherever you're working, everyone would make more money everyone would have more clients you'd help more people if every single coach was also marketing themselves yeah you know when someone walks in the door you're welcoming new people somebody you know you're posting to instagram you're posting on facebook you're you're helping people giving them advice um before they start paying you. And I think a lot of people,

I was at an event a little over a year ago, and my friend, she does really well on YouTube. She teaches fitness on YouTube, mostly to female audience. So she was asked to speak to this group of really, a lot of young entrepreneurs in their 20s. on YouTube, mostly a female audience. So she was asked to speak to this group of really these, a lot of young entrepreneurs in their twenties. And she was talking about all these different tactics and strategies to get more people to view your shit. Right. And so I'm sitting there on the

side just to be there to support her as a friend and learn something too. And there was all these questions from a lot of young people going, well, what about being authentic? What about being authentic? And I'm sitting there, I'm going, this is really interesting. They're more interested in being authentic than they are in getting more views.

That sounds ethically correct. And then I molded over, over the weekend and I go and I talked to some of the people that were so caught up in being authentic. And I realized something is they actually, uh, weren't, uh, they were confusing authenticity with, uh, saying what they wanted to say. Authenticity with being heard. And so I think that they're not considering the audience. They're like, I'm going to attract the people that are like me.

People like you don't want to work with you. They're doing their own shit. They're like you. They've already gone down the path and they've already figured stuff out. They don't want to don't want to work with you they're doing their own shit they're they're like you they've already gone down the path and they've already figured stuff out they don't need you people that need you need you to communicate in a way that is at their level at their level of thinking in that in whatever it is you're totally talking about there's uh this is like a classic conversation this is the way that the uh the hold the standard summit starts that i teach which is This is like a classic conversation. This is the way the Hold the Standard Summit starts that I teach, which is creating a lens to see challenges in two different types of ways,

technical and adaptive. So think about the example that you just gave. You have a subject matter expert at the front of the room and then a bunch of people who are trying to become that, more or less, in the audience. And they're sitting there believing that if they can somehow download into their head the techniques of the person in front of the room, that they could then become the person in front of the room that they could then

become the person in front of the room this is a classic illogical assumption uh and the the way that you brought up uh their desire to be authentic is super meta because of the exact reason that you just said. To be authentically the person that they are right then and there in the chair is by definition not compelling. So this person in the front of the room say, hey, you need to do this, that, and the other thing. Essentially, you need to become somebody who ought to be followed. Yeah. What about being authentic?

You're telling me that you need, you want a different result. You want a different outcome. You want to be someone who you're not yet capable of being. So is this about downloading information or is it about becoming that person? Yeah.

And they sort of need to be authentically the person that they aren't yet, right? And that's a process that they would have to undergo or not, know and it's a classic uh follower verse leader um mistake yeah authentically i have 10 clients yeah right so i've got to stay at 10 clients because that's who i am yeah so why are we at the seminar we have 100 clients you? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. There's some adaptation there. And it's way easier to assume that you're a bit of advice away from being the person that you need to be, forgetting that you would actually have to become that person.

I mean, I've been in this conversation with myself for about, I can remember the book I read, the conversation I had where I go, oh shit, identity. There's all these different, there's these different ways of becoming, right? And everybody is becoming something. Most people are becoming something at a very slow rate

unintentionally. It's an unintentional becoming. Then there are people who have a desire to become something else, but they can't for whatever reason. they may be intentional. Their way of approaching it is by doing. They go, okay, if I do the squats, if I do eat like this, if I don't eat like that, then I'll become that person. And that was my approach for a long time. And I go, okay, that's how you do it. I'm going to emulate other people. I'm going to do what they do.

And it works, but it's slow. And then what I found a layer underneath that was, oh, we look at beliefs. Oh, okay. What is it that you believe to be true that's not quite in line with reality? Okay. If we can throw out one belief and replace it with a new one, now you can make a shift a little bit faster. It's actually easier.

And the doing starts taking care of itself. You go, oh, if I believe this instead of that, going to the gym is actually less, it's not as difficult. It becomes more automatic. To difficult it becomes more automatic to eat well becomes more automatic one belief at a time I operated like that for a long time

and it works a lot faster than copying what someone else is doing and then I got to what are the beliefs what are they resting on top of this is identity this is this is who i believe i am or and who i am becoming and uh i find in myself and with

working with people that's the toughest one to work on but if you can make one identity shift it impacts every single aspect of life so an, they're trying to become the best athlete on the planet. You could either copy what Rich Froning's doing or Matt Frazier, or you could start taking on the same type of beliefs that they have or full-on take on an identity of you are that athlete. And then that way you're viewing your entire world through the lens of i'm a world-class athlete yeah and if you can take that on and and uh if i try to get i've had people do this like oh i want to go i want to go to the crossfit games i want to do this or that i go okay can you say that i'm a world-class athlete and fucking can't get out of their mouth.

It's like, oh, this is interesting. Yeah. You're not there yet. Yeah. And they're like, well, it would be out of alignment. It would be a lie. It's not authentic. And I go, okay.

Yeah. Okay. Well, whatever you believe, whoever you believe you are right now your entire life is going to your identity and belief structure is going to reinforce who you currently are you have to shift the identity and then everything starts to change

quickly yeah and those are assumptions right who your identity or who you think you are what your identity is who you think you are, what your identity is, is an assumption. Yeah. And we have the most profound experiences when our assumptions are challenged, right?

They break our way of seeing the world. And I think if we all reflect, you know, right now, there's probably times in your life or times in the lives of people around you where something has changed their life, you know. What's interesting about that, though, is many people can have seemingly the same experience and it only changed some of their lives or none of their lives, right? How is it that 60 people can go to a seminar technical seminar and one person's life has changed 60 people learn stuff but one person's

life changed on that day you know a million people read a book but some of their lives change yeah and that that mechanism is this this challenging of our assumptions right you come in assuming something about yourself or the world and then it's somehow shown to you that that is maybe up for grabs yeah right yeah you know you can't unsee that and and you're changed uh almost like by definition from that and so uh yeah that, that framework of almost like depth or rate of development that you just presented is important. And I think the mechanism behind there,

if you understand the mechanism, then you can kind of exploit, it's not a good word, but exploit it for good. If I know how this thing generally works, then what would it look like if I went about my life and cultivated

times and places and people in my life that would challenge my assumptions you know then you build in these opportunities to develop your your lens and going going and seeking out people who are going to challenge your assumptions that means uh discomfort that means getting in the room with people who you may have a full body experience of this person is wrong. And learning to dial back the assumptions, as you say, or judgments or whatever you want to call it. And say, okay, well, what if, I like to ask myself, what if this person is, what if what they're saying is true? And whatever it is that's going on for me is not true. And then let me try that on and see how that feels over time.

And I think misunderstanding what we're talking about right now looks a lot like, what are you saying? Like that my beliefs aren't true and that I need to like go around and prove my life to be a lie or something. And that's like a weird misinterpretation of what this is. Yeah. Because the upside of what we're saying right now is the mentality that you just described affords you really the best opportunity to enrich your position as well right uh you know you you uh you don't grow much by seeking out what we call like confirming information yeah like if i just repeat to you in 20 different ways things that you already believe to be true then there's not

much adaptation there but if you're on a quest to to find out, and the language that we use a lot is, how might I be wrong about this? Something that you believe to be true. And that in and of itself does a great job of reinforcing your beliefs as well. And it just puts this beautiful little asterisk. We talk about this like asterisks where all of your firmly held beliefs and the things that you're sort of devoting your efforts to are the best asterisks so far. Then that's a very key distinction

because that little asterisk keeps me honest and it keeps me seeking information that will challenge my beliefs. And if I keep coming up to information that is confirming it, then that's okay. Good news. You just have a richer, you know, you're an omnivore who's also read all the literature on veganism. Right? Like, isn't that a more empowered stance? Or think about the omnivore who is living inside of their own vacuum of confirming information that's never considered an argument and reasons for that argument that are counter to their beliefs.

That's just a fragile place to be, right? And so where do you want to live? On defense, you know, building up bigger walls and pushing away ideas that are counter to yours? Reinforcing it? Feeling really good around people that are exactly like you? Or venturing out? How do you get, when you're working with a client, that you get a sense that there's this heavy resistance

and the defenses are being put up. What's your approach? So to me it starts with utility. And when I say utility, I mean just kind of performance or results because everybody wants that. And you may remember this as a movement coach. It's sort of like, thank God that the best way to lift the most weight is technically also the safest way. Right. Thank fucking God.

Or our job would be so fucking hard. Because then everyone's left with a choice. It's like, do you want to move weight or do you want to be safe? Right. That's a horrible place to live yeah but but you probably in in your past life you know uh teaching a lot of movement to people felt uh like your job in a lot of ways was showing them that connection like i i hear your ego barking yeah you want to move this weight And it feels like what I'm telling you and my cues and all that are attacking your desires to move the most weight. Guess what?

We want the same things. And so I need to remind people that, and this is an assumption that they're making, that it's my preference. They think, oh, it's just your preference that we give and receive negative feedback. Right? It's just your bias that it's at our edges that we learn. I'm like, dude, I would prefer this to be way easier. Trust me. This is not my preference.

Yeah. I'm interested in results and adaptation. And it's hard for me. So considering what we know about the mechanics of how we evolve, how we transcend and include, how we expose our blind spots, written in that, tethered to it, is this discomfort you're talking about. And that's not my preference, not my opinion. And once we consider that there are results there,

then we have to at least open the door and kind of go there. And that's not my preference, not my opinion. And once we consider that there are results there, then we have to at least open the door and then kind of go there. And that's a big or overarching way to look at it. But the more specific two feet on the ground way is the same way that PTs make money, right? Is you show people that they're fucked up. I feel great. What are you talking about? Hey, put your hand over your head like this, but keep your back on the floor. PTs make money, right? Is you show people that they're fucked up. Yeah. I feel great. What are you talking about?

Hey, put your hand over your head like this, but keep your back on the floor. Why can't you do that? Well, yeah, you're fucked up. So now you want to listen to what we're saying here, right? Yeah. And what's behind that? That sounds funny, but what's behind that is this is showing them what they couldn't see before. Right. In the silly example that we just laughed about,

this is someone who believes they're making an assumption that they need no help. Yeah. I'm great. I feel great. I have no evidence to show me otherwise. Okay, well, here's a little bit of evidence. I want you to try this thing. Put your low back on the ground.

Lift your arm like this. What are you feeling? Well, this is preposterous. I could not consider this. Yeah, you feeling? Well, this is preposterous. I could not consider this. Right? Yeah. You're fucked up. Yeah.

So here's some information, right? And it's, it's essentially a long winded way of saying, showing people what they cannot see. You know, that's what adaptation is. I dig that.

I, you mentioned, uh, was it transcendent include? There's a, I was reading a book recently, um, called,

are you familiar with Integral Theory? Yeah. Is it Ken Wilber? Ken Wilber. It's a theory. Actually, I don't think he has a book called that, but every one of his books references that as a framework. Yeah. It is what I'm familiar with, yeah and uh i was reading one uh there there's a a whole slew of integral books written

by different authors who are all students or they're psychologists that have worked with ken wilber or whatever and so there's this there's this really cool mountain of information um if you want to like apply spiral dynamics and integral theory to any aspect of life, there's even one, damn, there's a book on strength training. It's with Rob McNamara. Yeah. Ken Wilber writes the foreword. Strength to Awaken. Strength to Awaken. That's the one. That book was, have you read it? Yeah. Dude, so good. It was so cool. And I was, you know, there's a version of me that's shitty, right? So I was like a little hater.

I'm like, this is going to be some stupid fitness thing or whatever. And it was great. Yeah. You know, to be fully transparent, I read it. I justified reading it because Ken Wilber wrote the foreword. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Any of the training he talked about was more like bodybuilder,

like leg press machine. That's me confirming my like shitty attitude. I'm like, see. Yeah. I mean, but you could take any of the concepts he writes in that book and apply it to any type of movement practice. Really cool.

It's, it's go read strength to awaken. If you want to go down a really cool rabbit hole. Yeah. I like it because it'll take someone who's in a strength training into a different conversation too. Yeah. You know, and I'm really interested in just human behavior and like why this goes poorly for us. You know, I think I have to be interested in that if I want to be

interested in contributing to solutions, kind of by definition. Yeah, you've got to figure out what's at the root cause. Because here's what I observe in many different contexts is one-on-one we get this.

There's very few, I mean, surely there are people, but there are very, let's mean surely there are people but they're very let's say they're much fewer people who are like i have no idea what you mean like uh you know uh the future better me would be capable of seeing more like you know like we get that like more or less yeah i do an exercise with uh coaches a lot of times like let's imagine the guy's house we're sitting in right now. He's 69 years old and full of a lot of wisdom.

One of the pieces of advice that he had given was I don't know if it was advice, but he said, ordinary people think in years. Extraordinary people think in decades. Wow. And when I heard that,

I spent a good two, three weeks chewing on it. Shifts you. And I'd been thinking about business in two or three, one, two, three year chunks. And I had tried to think five years out but it was like what the fuck that was business that's something outside of myself what about my life right about who i am so i do this really cool exercises like go back 10 years to the day yeah where were you 10 years ago today describe that day now where do you think you can be in 10 years from now?

And it's still not fathomable. It's still helpful context, though. Yeah. Again, it shows them what they couldn't have assumed. Sorry, you were saying? No, this is sort of it, right? Also, similarly, if you interviewed people one-on-one, you sat down with them one on one.

It wouldn't be a stretch for most anyone to recognize, you know, you could ask them, hey, do you have some strengths? Generally some things that you're better at than others. Oh, yeah, for sure. And some weaknesses, areas where you could improve and you should improve. Yeah, for sure. We all have some awareness to this. You put people in groups, in teams, in neighborhoods, in countries, in businesses,

and we all start acting funny. We all start being unwilling to admit what we just admitted one-on-one. And in that same Ken Wilber camp are some developmental minds. We're a mutual friend, Dr. Kara Miller, Robert Keegan. These folks are looking at this developmental lens of organizations, often companies and whatnot. And I really resonate with something that Keegan says, which is that most people go to work doing two full-time jobs.

And the first full-time job is their job. And the second full-time job is covering their tracks about having any weaknesses at all. Right? They're trying to avoid being exposed for the things that they know that they have. Now, much better teams, and this usually shows up on the fringes, sport, warfare, businesses that are young and small

and accomplishing something or older and big and are on the edge, where they just say, we're going to get over our shit really quick because this purpose is so strong. And we're not going to forget. We're not going to lie to ourselves and say that we don't have these weaknesses. And since we're pretty good right now, that the better version of this thing

would just sort of like really take a look at where we could get better. And so the behavior changes immediately. There's this opportunity for development that this thing can, rather than resist being exposed and staying small and playing defense, it's just going to put it all on the table and get to truth,

which includes some negative things. And they have an opportunity then to use their weaknesses as the guide to the future better members of the team future better team itself and um you know this comes back to the discomfort that you just mentioned is even though we can make a great case and a lot of people are continuing to make a great case for this developmental orientation it it doesn't feel that good to get negative feedback and to be vulnerable about that and one-on-one we're kind of more willing to admit that but uh nonetheless we all show up to work acting funny you know and um this idea of where this goes wrong

for people and and how is it that we continue to sort of undermine our success is sort of like the reason for the summit, the reason for the book. It's like I observe that there are these human behaviors where when you decide to give in to fear and, and you succumb to that vulnerability of going out to your edge, uh, people get together and they have to rationalize that. And so they get together and they sort of metaphorically lock arms and they're more or less saying like, it's okay, right? Like, it's just, it's just hard out there. You can't blame us. You know, like we're, we have to be here. Our hands are tied.

Damn, I wish we could all live in a perfect world, but we got bills to pay. It's just the way that it is. And this type of language... It sounds like what I would normally identify as victim language. Exactly. It's all victimhood.

And usually you can find pockets. Well, each group has its own level of victim language. So at the low end, you have people who it's rampant. It's usually they're complaining about something happening or somebody all the time. Yep. And then maybe you progress to another group. It's a little less. Maybe they're talking about what they're accomplishing or about the future or whatever.

But I've progressed through different groups. I've noticed that. I've been part of groups where everything was somebody else's fault all the time. And things were happening to them. I'm going to guess that there were low as a low performance group, low performance groups and in a lot of areas of life. Um, yeah.

And then over time, I, um, like hanging out with the guy, uh, who's, uh, my business partner's mentor.

Yeah. And I've, you'd never hear an ounce of that kind of language coming out of his mouth his health is in order his business is in order he's enjoying himself in every moment because it wouldn't it be so painful to live there as someone who has conceded any interest to explore a betterment of themselves or any interest to explore their own sort of shortcomings, wouldn't it be so painful to live there and be alone,

you know? And so we gotta, we gotta lock arms and, and those communities, unfortunately, on my observation are much larger in size. Oh yeah. It's the majority of the population.

Exactly. And, and it perpetuates that thing, but the opposite is true. And this is what I observe in high performance groups is, you know, I've been fortunate in the last five or so years of my life longer, if I'm willing to be more grateful than that, but like five or so years of my life where countless times I find myself in a room at a dinner table at a thing with people where I'm like, how did I get here? You know, there's no reason for this. You know, these people are the best in the world at what they do. And a smaller, weaker version of me would look at this phenomenon of of sort of uh elite high performers even celebrities will say in some context spending time together because that's

just a thing that like celebrity high performer people do and and in my brief experience in those rooms, I've come to find out a very refreshing concept that is not that at all. It's the similar dynamic that we see on the victimhood side, where it's those people who are being vulnerable in their craft, see beyond the specifics of their craft and need to lock arms with someone else who they can appreciate their vulnerability yeah right it's it's like community and commiserating in the upside yeah the i'm living at my edge and and inside of that is a bunch of discomfort and failure and all that and even though you win academy awards and i win big wave surfing competitions it doesn't matter i appreciate you and i need to i need to be in the room with you. You know what it took.

Because it's isolating if it's not, right? Yeah. And so you see, like, I'm just sort of like, the reason for this whole long-winded thing is, like, the communal, the collective version of these mentalities, you know? And there's a whole, there's a giant club, if you want to join that club club of people who are victims and scared and and have unfortunately given into that fear that would be the ordinary that'd be the ordinary group but you know uh it's it's still scary for the other

folks right and they need community too yeah you know and so there's extreme beauty in that you know i've never thought about that yeah that's true you don't have to be alone in anyone uh you know yeah i i would imagine i'm i'm trying to think back for myself now i think it would take me longer than i'm going to take on this podcast. But I remember a pivotal moment for myself where I got in. It was the first time I got into one of those rooms. Yeah. And it was 2013. And it might have been January 2014.

And, yeah, I was invited to attend a high-level business mastermind. And it's one of those things where I was the youngest guy in the room. I don't know exactly why I was invited. Yeah, you're thinking you don't belong. Oh, I was terrified, fucking terrified. I remember getting to the hotel in Miami. I spent every last dime to go there. You're the only imposter in the hotel in Miami. I spent every last dime to go there. You're the only

imposter in the room. Yeah. And I remember I was sweating bullets before. It was heart racing. And I'm like, man, these are the guys I've been learning from. I've been reading their books. I've been taking their seminars. And now I'm going to be sitting at the table with them.

And they're going to ask me what i think yeah what the fuck am i going to say you're like if we had kpis what would those be what are kpis google google 2014 it would have been what are kpis yeah totally and um totally and uh i walked into the room and it was i i at the end of the day i was excited to know that i had something to contribute for one because i was the youngest guy in the room and i understood youtube at the time and all these guys in business were using mostly written content right and for marketing. And I was like, oh, yeah, I just post YouTube videos. And people watch it and they love it.

And they're going, how does it work? And you're like, well, I guess I have something to say. I have something to say. This is valuable. So I was high for sure at the end of that event. And one thing I also noticed is I remember going back to my, like, just the people I hang out with normally. And I noticed there was a difference. And at the time, I couldn't put it all together. I just knew this felt different than this.

But that was really the first step into, well, it was my first step into personal development, but it was in that time frame. There was that time in my life where I go, I can change things. Big step. There's no, I am able to make a big shift here. This isn't no small thing. And what I noticed with that group is I was with 150 entrepreneurs and who were all, most of them were doing really well. I at the time was not, uh, doing well because they probably,

you know, dropped 10% of their monthly income to go to that event. I took your bank account. Yeah. And, um, and I did notice there was no complaining I look back on it now and I go oh wow there was no complaining everybody was talking about how they were learning what they were learning people who I there's a guy sitting next to me who I thought was

like I was using his systems and business to run my business he developed it and he's asking me questions from a place of humility. You're like, what planet am I on right now? And I go, that's how you learn. Of course. Is no matter how big you get,

how successful you become, you maintain that humility. And I have, over the years, become more and more humble. And that, I think people think about being humble as like, I think the average person hanging out with me may not think I'm humble, I don't know. But, like for me, being humble isn't a lack of bragging,

which I think a lot of people think about that. It's like humility, I got hit with it really hard about a year and a half ago and i realized that the most of the humility that i had uh been exposed to up at that point was not a choice i was humbled yeah and i was in a room and i was being coached and I got to see what it was like to choose humility and vulnerability. And so I, because I could have hid. Yeah. There's a big room and I walked up to the front of the room and I elected to be coached in front of 120 other people. And I did it over and over and over again. And whereas, you know, there was probably 20 people who got up there over and over and over again. Whereas there was probably 20 people who got up there over and over

and over again to be coached in front of a room and anyone in the room could have been coached but they hid in the back or they didn't get up. It pays to be humble. My coach pays to be wrong. I got to be choosing to see how you might be wrong.

Yeah. One question I ask people a lot is, what are you committed to being right about? Right. Look there. Yeah, that's the spot. Look there. Yeah, my coach, past life as a baseball player,

my collegiate manager, legend, Rich Hill, has an epic quote. There are two types of people in this game, humble ones and those who are about to be. And the thing about, you know, and I'll paraphrase because I don't know if I remember the exact quote, but one of my favorite writers, Nassim Taleb, he talks a lot about, you know about volatility and risk, right?

And he says, in probability, this might be a direct quote here, in probability, time and volatility are the same, right? So you can either choose to be humble and choose to shine a real bright light on the dark spots, or you can just let it hit you. And if you live long enough, you're going to get smacked a bunch. Well, I think they've done studies, and I've heard stories of people who work in hospice. And people are on their deathbed, and they're about to go,

and they will call somebody and just fucking lay out everything they regret in their life i think that's an example of of that of it's going to hit at some point yeah and when you're on your deathbed man is that really how you want to go yeah seems like a bummer yeah the you know i i've never spoken about this but this example is is just coming up because I happened to stop by. You know, we're in Venice right now, and I live in Venice. And I grew up in the area, and I went to high school just down the street in Santa Monica. And I just so happened to stop by there this week. And I really believe that the first time I ever saw this behavior that we're talking about here was in high school.

And I was fortunate enough to be part of a unique group, my class. Because my high school is a small private school. It's not good in any sports it's just kind of it's not like fancy or or you know infamous for anything special and in those types of environments i would say any real high school has a susceptibility to this uh the culture there my whole time, freshman, sophomore, junior year, was this thing I'm talking about, commiserating and like how much of this is outside of our control, how lame this is, fucking so dumb, man, these rules and these people. Of course, football team lost again. Of course, the dance is so dumb.

Because what are you dealing with? You're dealing with insecure kids who want to feel good about succumbing to their fear of being vulnerable and expressing what they want and trying something and potentially failing. And that like gone awry looks like that, where there's a whole culture of people who are locking arms in like complainer culture.

And when I was a senior at this little school, you know, there's a kind of a special group of us. The whole class was special, but we had an ASB group, you know, student council group that was pretty unique. And we just sort of decided that we're here. We're going to be here all year long. We might as well make this thing that we, you know, the thing that we're here, we're going to be here all year long. We might as well make this thing that we, you know, the thing that we want. And this is the dynamic of human behavior that I'm talking about, where you can have

a group, a business, a team, a culture where everyone is aligned in their desires and the whole group will not grasp that desire to protect their own fear and that's what was happening at this school everybody wanted it to be fun and awesome but no one was willing to do it right and so we just declared like this is going to be this is going to be fun and we're going to show you that it's okay and we did a bunch of things that were kind of unprecedented that don't really matter, but it shifted the whole culture. For one year, it was just a different thing. You know, when I teach the Strongman seminar, you know, I would say a similar thing.

Because that's another dynamic. You get a bunch of, like, alpha people in a room from different gyms, and they're, like, kind of posturing, and no one's willing to let their guard down uh but if you interviewed them all individually they would say yeah i'd like to have a really good time here and i'd like to learn a lot but if we're not careful everybody will get in their car and drive home and just be like oh wasn't able to wasn't able to do it see i knew it those guys and gals from the other gym weren't going to be nice or weren't going to be fun. And so we, like, hedge against having the experiences that we want. And the example I give is very similar.

It's like if you've ever been to a dinner party of, like, acquaintances, you know, everybody kind of, like, loosely knows each other. Yeah. No one drives to that thing and, like, I can't wait for this to be awkward and no one to have fun. I'd say most of my dinner parties are that way. Full of loose acquaintances these days. But these things have a real opportunity

to be a bummer. And so, here's the perfect little microcosm. You got eight people driving to a place to have dinner, hoping it's not miserable. They sit down and then awkwardly cut their chicken, looking around

and it's brutal and awkward for an hour and a half. Everybody says thank you politely. And then all these people drive home being like, wish that was better. Or it takes a few glasses of wine and maybe they loosen up. It takes someone to lead that.

And people want to be led. If we don't choose leadership, then the choice that is ultimately given to you is one of victim mentality. Your existence happens to you is one of a victim mentality you know yeah your your your existence happens to you and fuck you know that's what happened in that school and that's what happens in dinner parties all the time that's what happens when no one gets up to the front and says hey guys let's call this thing out it's okay and then it opens the floodgates for an opportunity. As a coach, you come in a room. How do you set that tone? Well, I think you have to understand how power works.

People misunderstand power, I think, where surely there are instances where people are placed in a position of authority. But based on what I'm about to say even that falls apart when you realize that power is given you know uh i wrote a an article the other day about that power dynamic and it's like if you put uh a red power ranger in front of a a group of eight-year-olds that that dude holds some power. He says, here's what we're doing. The kids are ready to go, wide-eyed and bushy-tailed.

You put the Power Ranger in front of a board meeting at a corporation, they're like, what the fuck is this 30-year-old weirdo in a Power Ranger suit doing up here? And so we give power. It's possible to have someone who's a CEO or a manager or a boss stand in front of the room with assumed power and everybody in the group has no respect

for this individual and there really isn't power there. And so what I'm getting at is power or authority is given to those who have seemingly power and authority. And it pays, if you're in these types of positions, to lead vulnerably, to show and make it okay and sexy and cool to be wrong and to fail and to be vulnerable. And once you do that, you get the behavior that you would like. Most people in a position of leadership would want that behavior from their followers.

If you're unwilling to give it, chances are you're not going to receive it. You know, and so you have to offer that yourself, I think. Yeah, what are some behaviors you see with coaches that are unwilling, like telltale signs? Like, oh if if they're doing this then that might be a sign of that uh i think you know a couple things come to mind um coaches oddly can be insecure because you know it feels like it really doesn't pay to be

wrong so if you experience some failure or if someone asks you a question that you don't know the answer to, you feel like you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. It feels like, well, I'm not allowed to be wrong. Therefore, I'm going to sort of either act funny or make this person feel silly or avoid or dodge. I can't look in this mirror that's showing me this thing. And a lot of coaches, a lot of humans, I think, use certain behaviors or information to excuse themselves, right? If I'm fit enough, it doesn't really matter if you don't understand what I'm saying.

If I look a certain way or if I have a certain amount of success, you know, say I'm a business coach, right? If I have a business that's successful and, and you know you paid me money to coach me i can use that if i'm a poor coach i can use that as a justification to not be effective with you yeah if you don't get it it's on you yeah right i'm unwilling then to look at well what is it about my ability to lead and communicate that might be ineffective you know and so so i think as humans we often make like a trade right we're we're at our worst we're often trading away personal responsibility you know and so i i think the best expression of a coach would be one that um and this is sort of full circle to how we started this thing is the best expression of one of these sort of experts subject matter experts

or coaches or practitioners would be a student of their game you know by nature to be a student of the game you'd have to be vulnerable with an assumption that there's something out there for you that you don't know that's a vulnerable belief in and of itself um and always in questioning but the reason why those folks get into trouble is we all know that it's not very compelling to talk about youtube say here's my youtube channel and what i have to say to you today is it depends you know that's not compelling at all i need to to take a stand. This is the right way. This is the wrong way. This is also the wrong way.

And here's why you should listen to me. You know, and so it's a paradox. You know, and I use, in a lot of our teachings, I use Keegan's framework. It's not the right framework framework but his framework of development you know and there's a key distinction between these stage four self-authoring mind and stage five self-transforming mind very few people are at these stages you know stage three the previous would be this socialized mind we just described all these people locking arms and victim mentality uh the socialized mind would be the limits of that mind would be uh to the beliefs and and value systems of our socialized structures right yeah and so four and five let's go through stage one through five real quick okay i flipped through your book i haven't read it fully yet, but it looks, it looks like a lot of fun. Oh yeah. Um,

yeah. What's one, two, three, four, five. So, uh, I rarely talk about one and two because they're so, um, they're so early on. So like, so, so like children's stages of development. Yeah. So, so one is like, um, one, one thing, one thing I'll note, and I'm curious if you agree or disagree, is anytime I study individual stages of development, those same stages of development show up in culture. You can see it in different societies. You may go find an indigenous tribe somewhere versus Germany. Yeah.

And see the stages of development really, really clearly that are the same exact descriptions as what are in individuals. Spoiler alert, the book ends with a conversation about Easter Island. And not to be controversial, but to confirm what you're saying, you know, Easter Island in a lot of ways can be, if we so choose, to be viewed as like a microcosm of Earth. So you have a group of people, they end up on this island that is a pretty comprehensive ecosystem.

A lot of resources, a lot of animal life, essentially a place that would support human life indefinitely more or less uh if if we choose that yeah and what we know about those folks is they sort of lived in um a state of consciousness that is uh more archaic and that's not meant to be like a derogatory thing or whatever but uh the the worldview was such that it's um very oriented towards magic and luck and these um these sort of your behaviors are sort of positioned in that way. If you don't understand, if you can't consider that the sun moves across the sky by some other means than a guy driving a chariot that's on fire every day, then that's going to be the limit of your world. And so you have a group of people that, for various different reasons,

found themselves in kind of dire straits. And rather than, they weren't capable, so we can't really blame them, but rather than make decisions in a way that might save themselves, they sort of double down on a lower level consciousness expediting the depletion of their raw materials on there because they believe so passionately in magic and luck that they figured, well, since we're running out of food and resources here, let's use all of our manpower to

erect these giant statues. And now all of a sudden, this seemingly sustainable biosphere is being depleted at rapid rates. And this degrades down into cannibalism and war on the island and to the point where they almost made themselves extinct. And so the lesson there if we want to look at it this way is that our own future will be decided by

our ability to drive adaptation between the ears. Conscious capacity. And our behavior right now will work and we'll be just fine right up until it's not. Right. And we're already seeing, you know, again,

to quote Keegan, we're in over our heads, right? The complexity of our day is greater than the complexity of most of the minds involved in our day and to solve our problems. And so here come these stages, right? And just like you said, depending on who you read and what the names are, what the colors are, what the numbers are, it doesn't really matter. There could be, you know, there's some models where it's five stages.

Some models are a dozen stages. But some are just more granular than others. I'm a big fan of fewer the better. Yeah, which is why I end up going back to Keegan's thing. And the way I describe that is we need to remember that any time there's a characterization or a model, it's human beings making an observation and and drawing a line where there's not a line and we're putting a color or a title to a thing where there's not

a color or a title well that's another i've talked to people before like oh am i my orange or am i green yeah you're obviously green and not a bit of orange at all yeah yeah and the answer is always you know well you're there's a you're somewhere in between but and and what aspect of your life and you know yeah and it's just these are just frameworks to help see and notice things and make sense of them you know uh i i talk a lot about it's not a sentence yeah in medicine you're stuck in orange yeah in medicine as i always talk about you know you get your blood work done right and like whatever the fuck like sheet they print out at the end that like tells you your thing is uh a framework you know they don't look into the into the microscope

at your blood and it says like in in times new roman like diabetes right you know what i mean like they they notice some things that across a certain threshold you say diabetes. You know what I mean? Right. And so that's where these sort of stages come up. It's made up. Yeah. And so more or less if you look at any of these models, you see different levels of

awareness. Essentially like how big of a lens, how capable of a lens do you have and and it follows the normal sort of progression of evolution which is we include our previous selves but as we grow we transcend that as well and so um this sort of impulsive mind is is characterized as like the the newborn right and if if you can think, of course you can't remember, but if you could think back to what it might be like to be a newborn, your awareness is very small. If you experience the feeling of hunger,

the totality of the universe is hunger. Yeah. If you are tired, everything is tired. There's no room for other perspectives there. And the way that I describe this in the summit is, I think, maybe one of the simplest ways for people to understand. Moving from that stage to the next stage is the same way that we move from one stage to any other stage, which is a growth of awareness. Our assumptions are challenged.

And so I think we can all imagine a baby who like gnaws on everything. They're like chewing on their fingers and on their toes. And they would eventually bite down on their own hand and feel that sensation. But what happens when the baby who thinks that their entire universe is made up of their impulsive feelings bites their mother's finger or their father's finger? They bite down and then there's no sensation of being bit. So that assumes of another perspective, right? Yeah.

Whole little baby's mind is blown, right? We can follow this progression of awareness, you know, to where most people are stuck, which is the socialized mind. Which is like, I'm Republican, therefore all things fit into this box. The limits of this belief are the limits of my belief. I grew up in this place with these certain social norms, and these are obviously the truth. I have a theory. I'm open to it being challenged. Okay. And this is what I've noticed is I've been studying language pretty deeply for a bit now.

And the impacts of the words we use on how we perceive the world. So what I notice is for children, we have all these stages of development that are common vernacular like infant yeah uh baby toddler toddler adolescence teenager and then you hit you graduate high school and you're an adult or college graduate and then you're an adult 18 baby you're an adult what you're an adult until you're a senior citizen yeah and there's this assumption there's no development i i think i think there is an assumption made by the average person there's no development because there's no name change the identity there's no shift in identity i remember when i became a teenager it was a big fucking deal. I'm a teenager now.

I was so happy about it. You're obviously very different at that point than you were the day before. Yeah. I think for that reason, a lot of people, when they hit 18 or 21, wherever it is, they feel like they're an adult. A lot of the development comes to a screeching halt because they only have one thing to call themselves. Statistically, it does, too.

This is that stage three zone that I'm sort of talking about. Chronologically, it aligns with what you're saying. Oh, you hear that? I'm right. That's right. Confirmed. Confirmed so far. That'm right. That's right. Confirmed. Confirmed so far. That's right.

That's right. Well, this is why it's cool to study human development is because you're presenting new words, new frameworks, in which someone goes, oh, I'm a stage three. There are more stages? And I don't actually need to get older just to fall into them. Right. And just like any awareness, it's there all the time.

You know, if you buy a new car, you just notice that car everywhere, right? It's like, are there more of those cars? Or do you just have a new lens to see this kind of thing? And what you're referring to is actually, there's good explanation for the lack of names in this adulthood thing because the time and the resources and the expertise devoted to psychology up until, you know, the last 50 years or so has been biased towards pathologies, right? You know, the birth of positive psychology is in like the 1950s. And so if you saw a psychologist prior to 1950, it's because you're fucking insane and you're in a straitjacket, right?

And you're schizophrenic. It's a new idea that you could see a psychologist to improve your golf game. And so this idea of positive psychology and development beyond adult, and that's where the name comes from, adult development. It's an entire wing of psychology that is challenging the assumption that we stop evolving after adulthood. That was literally the belief in a clinical sense that you become an adult and then you gain more experiences but nothing happens well i think that is what's

happening but only because we believe it yeah it's not what it's it's what's happening by and large but it's not necessarily what has to happen and that's where these stages beyond come. And so sort of just to wrap up on that, that coaching dynamic is like the stage beyond the socialized mind where you are just the limits of your consciousness are that of your social sort of belief structures is the stage for self-authoring thing according to keegan and the name says it all self-authoring you hold the pen so so this is the person who has more or less their own charter or belief system code and and it's it's custom right that yeah i i i voted republican but but i don't necessarily those are not the confines of my belief. Here are the things that I agree with and disagree with. And yeah, I'm Catholic, but I'll accept some things but not others. And so my truth is beyond, it's bigger than,

it includes allegiances there, whatever your thing is. I'm a former artist who grew up in georgia who votes democrat right uh but i am self-authoring in my expression of the world and at its worst this is it sounds good and it is good it's further along i'd say uh but there are limits here and the limits here are are that you create your own sort of dogma and and we got into this conversation because we were talking about coaches and practitioners and gurus right these are self-authoring people i have a thing it's called crossfit but better yeah right yeah i i do power lifting but i have a method and this do you think do you think that somebody approaching

uh life from that perspective it's easier to get people that are in stage three that's that's the dynamic right stage three people follow what they follow authorities outside of themselves right so stage three people are more or less fall following either individuals or collective expressions of stage four. And here's what's interesting about that is the limits of stage four are, think about the behaviors. If you have a seminar, if you have the Logan method, right? Fucking Logan. You're doing the Logan method.

I'm teaching the Logan method seminar. It doesn't really pay for me to retweet the articles that make the Logan method look stupid. Right? And so the way that I send and receive... That's why I don't read anything. That's right. That's right.

You don't want to be wrong. Because, you know, to stay authentic. Exactly. And so this is the limit. This is the dangerous, the fragile, dangerous part of this stage four thing is you become a dogma. And you, by nature, feel like you need to resist external stimulus. Sending and receiving information counter to your thing doesn't really pay to do that you know and so you know but we just described for like

this whole podcast the the value in seeing this disconfirming information and how i might be wrong about this and that is sort of at odds with this dogma approach and so stage five is this self-transforming mind that's sort of less interested in the dogma or the system but it can it can see its own lens right it's an awareness that has enough space from it to see like oh i'm over there doing this sort of self-authoring thing and and i can see why i teach that but i can consider that that is a system amongst other systems yeah right and i'm more interested in not the system itself but how it works and and where its holes are and all that and so people all the time uh you know i made the joke earlier about the youtube video that

no one would watch right i'm here to tell you it's really gray. My message to you today is it depends. No one's watching that shit because it's not compelling. So the little language I use is like if you want to be an authority, you want to share something in the world, it sort of pays to be stage four in the streets and be stage five at home. Yeah. You know, to consider how you might be wrong about your thing

and evolve and pursue that and be on offense. But you can still do that and be compelling. Yeah. And say to the world, here's what I know to be true so far. And believe me, I'm going to go home after the seminar and I'm going to try to break it. But right now, this is what I know to to try to break it. But right now, this is what I know to be true

and really have effect on the world. Yeah, I dig that. Yeah. The stages of consciousness thing, just entertaining it and hearing someone talk about it, challenges. And it's sort of like presupposes that we have a little bit further to go,

you know? And, and like you said, if we all assume that we're adults and like, Hey man, got to figure it out. Uh, that's the end of the road for us, you know? Yeah. I'm really curious about, um, yeah, there, there's a lot of different um as you call them frameworks or whatever of stages of development some have you know there's a dozen yeah or something like that and ken wilber who's one of the the leading guys on this talks about well we we don't know what goes beyond this because nobody's there talking about it for For sure. And is there something beyond that? Probably.

Yeah. I'm curious, at the pace in which we're moving in society is giving a lot of ability to individuals to really push those boundaries. So is there going to be another stage that we get to talk about in a decade from now? Surely. And it seems like the nature of our development is it's exponential in in velocity you know so um there are similar evolutionary

stages to how people work together you know and i present another framework uh f Lallou's framework of the evolution of organizations, basically how people work in groups. And if you look at that framework, you can clearly see where we've been. And it assumes that we're going someplace beyond what's on the page. Now, it trips us up because we can't really hypothesize as to what that is, or I guess we could try, but part of the reason why we can't see it is because we're not there yet. That's characteristic of evolution. I think that's also true,

and what I've witnessed in myself and heard from others is whatever stage you're in being able to understand the stage beyond where you're at it's not possible for sure you can only see behind you for sure so i could i could imagine that someone would listen to this and go what you know yeah what are you what the fuck are you talking about? I'm a Republican, obviously. I'm committed to this. There's no possible way that an opposing belief of mine could be true. I shared with Dr. Miller,

this is a funny one. It's like fucking sketchy and funny. Do you know the movie Kindergarten Cop? Yeah. Okay, so stay with me. I remember Kindergarten Cop as a kid, I don't know, it's been fucking 20 years since I've seen it, jammed me up.

Because if you remember, the kid in the movie has, his real dad ends up being this criminal who comes in and he kind of kidnaps him from the school or something like that. Yeah. My childhood brain could not consider that his real dad could be a criminal right so how i described the plot to other people was oh my god he thinks that that's his dad yeah right and they're like no it

really is i'm like that's impossible like your dad can't be a bad person right my brain could not consider these sort of opposing worldviews to be true at the same time a whole how old were you i don't remember like you know younger than 10 or something like that yeah there's a yeah for children there's the stages of development where uh logic is not possible yet right and there's an assumption for a period of time that your father is the world. Right. And whatever he modeled is how the world works. Right. So it makes perfect sense.

And yeah, I could not consider that that was the case. You know, like it had to be true. Like I had to make it true in order for me to understand the movie that the kid thought like the guy must have looked like his dad or whatever, and so he's running away with this criminal. And the people around here are obviously like, no, dude, it's his dad. I'm like, that's impossible.

I couldn't consider it. There's – going back, and you were talking about – I want to cover Transcend and Include because you said it several times. And I was reading this book, Integral Relationships, which is written specifically for men. It's a guide for men. Do you remember the author? I'll send it to you. If you search Integral Relationships on Amazon, it'll be the first one that pops up.

It'll say guide for men or something like that. And read it recently. Really good. But one of the things it talked about was that women have a much easier time as they transcend through the different stages of development, it's easier for them to include the previous stages. Integrate, yeah. Whereas for men, we tend to transcend and disregard.

Right. And then, so basically until we get to a certain stage, which is an integral theory, is the teal stage, going to colors here here which would probably be close to a stage five is that's when you actually

like I struggled I remember being in this conversation and being able to identify I know what stage I'm in and ego always wants to go to the next stage, but it won't get you there. Um, and, and having a hard time really being with my past

and going, Oh, this is who I was and integrating that into who I currently am. And, uh, once you get to a certain stage of development for men it's it's like you don't get to include and then one day i don't know if there's a moment in time it's probably a slow progression um i would say it's been a slow progression for me yeah and that is slowly being able to integrate all the previous stages. That's interesting. And so, for instance, you have like a blue stage, which is that socialized stage where it's, you know,

that's a lot of religion, trust in the government. If the authority says it, it must be true. Then you go to orange stage, which is very independent, that's where like an entrepreneurial type thinker really comes in ayn rand yeah um then you get into a green stage which is more like oh man and the green stage is like very different than the orange stage and that people you know it's more of like a hippie mindset. Nuance. Yeah. Yeah. I'm principled, but also these other things. So I've watched a lot of men go from orange into green.

And then it's almost like they're lost. But they get more into their feminine essence, more of a nurturing instead of a driving. And then when you get past the green, get back and go to teal, and then you can integrate that entire thing. And what's cool about, if you get to that point,

you can integrate the entire experience. Now you get this big picture view, like you were talking about stage five. You get this big picture view, and there's a lot of power in that. A lot of wisdom. Yeah. Yeah, I would imagine maybe it feels like to a male mind like you're retreating or you're regressing

to consider integrating those previous things. You know, it's like forward progress only. Like, here I go. I'm not that anymore. And, you know, there's a pride thing there probably. Yeah. That's interesting. For me, I used to like, oh yeah, I want to fight people.

I went in the Navy. I wanted to like fuck shit up. And then I went to CrossFit. I'm going to fuck more shit up and did MMA. And then progress, progress, progress. And then I got to a point where I go, I got real deep into business and achievement. And then I'm like, you know what?

All that stuff was just destroying me. It was stupid. And I don't want to do it anymore. And then I get to a point where I go, man, this is all really cool shit. It seems silly to throw that away. Now I want to go and fight. I don't want to go fight in a match. But the idea of getting in an altercation, I don't mind confrontation. I don't mind conflict.

It's fun for me. It was such a big part of my life at a younger stage. I went through a stage where I totally was against it. And then I get into a stage where I go, conflict's actually kind of fun. Yeah, I can fuck shit up, but I can also be really cool and loving. Fighting with wisdom. Yeah.

Seems like a good full circle perspective to have. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, the integration thing is big. In the conversation that I have with, organizationally with people, they're dealing with organizations you know that adds another layer of complexity because it's it's multiple people in their own

journey on that that that thing and so it's it's it's almost less specifically linear you know because of that that dynamic and more variables for Yeah, and so you have to consider when you're sort of presenting these frameworks that, especially organizationally, it's possible to really look and operate like you're in a certain place, but have like gaping holes down below. And humans can do it too. It's just sort of more specifically prevalent i think uh in the complexity of an organization you know a kid could could miss a a big part of their development because of trauma or some other experience as a child you know um to where they

kind of skip steps so to speak but organizations can too, right? You're this progressive organization with like a generally flat structure and, and the shared values thing, but, uh, you're really missing process, you know, which is seemingly regressive on this evolution of the thing. And, uh, I think we all know deep down that if you haven't taken care of those sort of earlier parts of yourself, they come back around and it can be fragile and like a house of cards type of thing, you know.

And that's where integration comes in. Yeah. Like you were talking about. Yeah. Dude, we're living the high life here on the canal. We're just kind of like taking in the day right now. Yeah, we were talking yesterday about, I was telling you, I was like, man, my Instagram. That's right.

It's got to look epic. That's right. Yeah, totally. Dude, I want to live that life. Yeah. All you have to do is give up everything. I thought you were going to say, click this link. Well, I mean, yeah.

That's part of the process. You give up everything and click this link. That's right. It's awesome. This is subtle. Subtle marketing we're doing here. That's right. That's right.

Well, they need to remember that if they wanted to be you, they would need to actually become it rather than hear about it. You know what I mean? So that's the adaptation part. Yeah. Well, you can't be me. You got to be you. That's the thing.

Yeah. Maybe be parts of the thing that you include or something. Yeah. you include or something yeah i what i what i'm interested in is uh simply giving people the processes that i found extremely valuable and then letting people get to their own end result a lot of people i've worked with it's they actually don't want what i they want the they want the freedom yeah maybe the attitude whatever but. But I think if they were to actually live with me for a little while, they'd get tired or realize they want something completely different. I think just a lot of that goes haywire.

I mean, look, often people think they want things that they don't really understand what that is. I always say I will never shame someone for their goals. People think they want things that they don't really understand what that is. I always say I will never shame someone for their goals, but I will urge them to understand what it means to say that they want that. You just spoke about earlier. If someone told you they want to be a CrossFit Games athlete, you would want to make sure that they knew what that meant. That means a certain level of suffering,

your life looks like a certain thing each day. If you also want that, then let's keep talking. But if you think it's this thing, then it's not. We're kind of screwed. There's a certain trap of this technical information thing and you know the silly way I say it sometimes is you know life and these

sort of evolutionary things becoming someone bigger and more capable is not like Ikea you know it's not like you open the instruction manual and there's all this technical information in therekea you know it's not like you you you open the instruction manual this is and there's all this technical information in there and you know you do step a b c c part one c part two you do

d and e and then you have a fucking shelf right like you need to become the thing that you want to become and i think a lot of people uh hope to God that they can just follow the directions. Well, I find that people, this is my take, is people want the thing, but they don't want to change their life to make it happen. Right, that's the adaptation. I mean, same thing, different direction. But, you know, it's the CrossFit Games games athlete conversation i've talked to athletes i've given seminars and they're like okay i'm like what are your goals crossfit games athlete and then

i get five minutes in the conversation i go they're so far from the mentality of commitment to that process that it's just a huge gap. There's so much that this person has to give up that it's ridiculous. Or I was talking to my friend who is a business coach the other day, and he gets people that come to him and go, I have this online business. I make five figures a year with it i do pretty good but i want to be a millionaire and he goes cool yeah and then but they don't actually want to

do what it takes to be a millionaire they just want to have the money in the bank they want that outcome yeah yeah there's a there's a trade that happens in the mind because we ultimately, there's nothing about wanting results that gets those results. You know, like I've said before, you know, I just decided today that I want to be an Olympic figure skater and go to the Olympics. I just got it. Could you see that? You're in tights on the ice and you have an umbrella in your hand

for some reason. That's my shtick. It's like, you know, if that's the outcome that I want, then the highest performing version of me would then trade that desire for actionable ones. Which is like, well, wanting that means wanting to be at the ice rink at 4 a.m. It means wanting to juice celery and practice choreography. Shit. Whatever the actionable steps are there. And most people don't get that far.

They just want the outcome. I spoke with a coach one time that uh desperately wanted to be a gym owner and he was he was um complaining to me about the parts of his job that he didn't like like this fucking mind body thing with the fucking memberships and the and then just like I've taken out the trash fucking five times a day or whatever and sort of harping on this idea of like I want to coach and affect more people. And I go, you know, if coaching makes up like 70% of your life and this 30% just annoys you now, like when you become the gym owner, coaching becomes 10% of your life. Yep.

And 90% is everything else. Wrote an email about that this morning. So to tell me that you want to be a gym owner really means you want to take out a lot of trash, and you want to spend a lot of time on mind-body. And if you aren't clear on that, then you won't become the thing. I think the biggest key to success in any one thing is if you can get yourself to a point where you love every single part.

Oh, yeah. Then, like for me, business. I fucking hated finance, accounting. I had to teach myself to love it. And when I got to love it, all of sudden the entire business got easier not not just that piece got easier the coaching got easier because I was free I was I wasn't there wasn't a part of my my being resisting this thing that was absolutely necessary and and business is cool because it provides feedback. You know, there's like competitors and there's this market.

It's very objective. It is. And so the numbers are the truth. Yeah. And it helps bring some sort of black and white perspective to this, which is, and I tell people this all the time who are in business, it's like you can have your feelings about these these processes and these parts of the things that that you maybe don't like or or don't care to have attention to detail on but

you will and are competing against people who are willing to do this yeah yeah So good luck to you. You know, to me, sports for the same way. It's just like this is too hard to leak performance. Like I'm just not talented enough and I'm not good enough to just underperform in any of these categories. Like I'm the type of person who needs to max that out to even have a chance to be in the game, so to speak. So it's like, and I don't, you. And this is me talking to some other person now. It's like, I just don't think you're good enough either

to just be dog shit at this part of the game. You're competing against people who are so willing to do that. They're so bought into this part of the process that they're just going to beat you. And so I empathize with you. Again, full circle. This is not my preference.

How long have you been a gym owner? How long have you been running? This is eight years. So 2011. Yeah. I had a CrossFit gym in 2007. I got away with shit that would no way, if someone ran their gym the way I ran my gym in the beginning,

wouldn't survive because there's competition. And I think that a lot of gym owners would love for it to be like the good old days, but it just ain't. in the summit I talk about strategies to create a process oriented company and process orientation sort of divorces you from this result orientation and it is, by definition, insurance against a fragile perspective

like a result-oriented one. And there are a lot of people, to use the gym example, you just said it, who are successful kind of on accident. Yeah. Their processes aren't necessarily anywhere near best practices but they've experienced success and if you're result oriented and you got a bunch of members or a bunch of money in the bank you could confuse yourself into thinking that you're doing something

really well yeah right but if you're process oriented you can have success or failure and be really concerned with what it is that is inside your control. Is this effective? Is it not? Et cetera. Yeah. And, you know, I learned this very deeply in baseball, right? Because there's a lot of accidental ways to have success. on a horrible pitch after being out all night drinking and accidentally get a hit through the infield and get to first base and think that I fucking did something right there. Yeah, I should go out drinking every night.

No, you fucking didn't. Yeah. Right? And the amateur, the little leaguer gets to the first base and they take their batting gloves off and they're like fist pumping. People that get paid $12 million a year to do that are upset. They have a positive result and they're like fist pumping people that get paid 12 million dollars a year to do that are upset they have a positive result and they're extremely dissatisfied because they know that those processes will not deliver results uh conversely uh in the big leagues you uh you take a swing at a good

at a good pitch and you're prepared and in the moment and you hit a ball hard right at somebody and you get out you're oh for one that's a failure you go back to the dugout and there are 30 other millionaires who meet you at the top step to high five you they're celebrating a failure right why because that's a process oriented savage organization and they know that that a commitment to that process is a commitment to excellence. And amateurs don't think like that. And so without getting too far into the weeds, high-level organizations, sport is no different, have ways to orient themselves to the process. To where the example I give is the San Diego Padres and the University of San Diego baseball programs

have internal numbers. These are not numbers that get published in the newspaper, like your batting average. Batting average is largely out of your control. Over the course of hundreds of at-bats, you can get a better picture as to someone's performance. But you can go 0 for 4 in a game and be dialed, right? All negative results, out, out, out, out.

But the process be on the money, right? You're taking a good approach at the plate. You're hitting balls hard. Just the results aren't there. Same way, you can go 4 for four and be living inside of a process that will end your career. And so full circle, you have businesses that have tricked themselves into thinking they've done things right because the results have shown them that. And then they're extinct. One day comes and poof right whether it's competition or some other

thing comes along because they are so blind to considering that their processes need attention because they've evaluated themselves strictly on the results yeah and that is one of the most fragile ways to live you know um oh thank god i don't have to strike out anymore you know i think about that often sometimes i never had baseball dreams uh while i was playing but i have baseball dreams all the time now and striking out oh it hurts so much more when you're 23 than when you're 10. You know? Yeah. It just never goes away, that feeling.

And so you'll, in that sport at least, you'll go crazy. Do you have any emotional trauma we need to process here on strikeouts? I don't think so. But you know what's crazy? I'm in this Facebook group that blew up kind of overnight. It's called Current and Former Professional Baseball Players. A couple guys made a group to stay in touch, and they said, hey, if you have former teammates, add them to the thing.

In one month, there's like 14,000 people in there. The reason why I bring this up is every month or so someone posts a comment in there about a dream and all of these people have the same dream which is it's some version

of you don't have you're in a game and you don't have your equipment or like you can't like get your shit right a game and you don't have your equipment or like you, you can't like get your shit right. Yeah. Or whatever. And I think there's like some, uh,

you know, psychologists have like popped off in there or something where they're like, the meeting is like when you, you prepare for so many years for something and, uh, you know, it doesn't actualize or whatever that, that it's manifested as this dream.

It's like, okay, you're up, and you're like, oh, shit, shit, shit, and you can't find your stuff. And it's just crazy because I've had that dream reoccurring, and thousands and thousands and thousands of these guys have the same dream. It's bizarre. I have a recurring dream of being back in the Navy, and I have a beard.

And I'm terrified. And that wasn't. No, no, no. You had to be clean shaven. Yeah. So I'm terrified that someone's going to notice. Right. And I'm going to have to shave it.

That's interesting. I always had this thing about college, and I think it was college because it felt, college is like you have a lot of responsibility. High school you kind of just show up, and it's really hard to get lost there you know on campus or whatever and i would have this thing i don't know if it was always a dream at night but it was this worry that part way through the semester that i just like forgot i had a certain class and i'm like dude i have an f in this thing that i just forgot oh yeah i've had that dream before i've had that

dream of being in college yeah of like this semester's over and i forgot to go to. I've had that dream before. It's crazy, right? I've had that dream of being in college. Yeah. Of like, this semester's over and I forgot to drop the class. Yeah. I'm like, oh, fuck. That's insane. My GPA just got fucked.

Yeah. Like, I just didn't, I didn't know I had to go to that. That's funny. Fuck. Dude, thanks for joining me today.

This has been awesome. Yeah. Full circle. We're back at it. Back at it. And we'll be doing more. Yeah, I awesome. Yeah. Full circle. We're back at it. Back at it. And we'll be doing more. Yeah, I'd love that. I'm going to be back up here in Venice a bit this summer.

I'm going to hit Austin for a month. Cool. Then I'll be back up here throwing parties. Yeah. You're down the street, so let's link up. Yeah. All right. Oh, yeah.

Shit. I almost forgot the most important part. What? Instagram. Bo, yeah. Shit. I almost forgot the most important part. What? Instagram? Booty shots of Logan. Where can we find you? Yeah. And you wrote a book.

I wrote a book, man. Yeah. It has been on pre-sale. It comes out officially. People who are listening to this can find it now. It's on Amazon called Going Right, a logical justification for pursuing your dreams. It jumped to number one,

new release in its category of philosophy. Congrats. Thank you. That was a trip, man. That's a cool fucking, I mean, whatever category you're interested in, right? But like philosophy jumping up, would you ever think you would?

Never. Nassim Taleb was on that list as well, so that was a fucking crazy thing. But yeah, this is the book that you gift to the person you see kind of untapped greatness in. It's like the permission slip for someone to go for it. And it nearly killed me. It took like three and a half years. It's the hardest thing I've ever done, and I someone to go for it. And it nearly killed me. It took like three and a half years. It's the hardest thing I've ever done, and I'm just proud of it. So hopefully you all will check it out.

Yeah, go pick up that book. Anything else I should know? That's it, man. I appreciate your time. Yeah, thanks for joining us. Have fun. Bye, brother. Yo, hit up iTunes and make sure you're subscribed to my channel,

The Bledsoe Show, because in a couple months, I won't be on the network anymore. And if you want to keep hearing from me, make sure you're subscribed. Go to iTunes, go to Stitcher, hit the subscribe button. All right, quick updates. We have the next Strong Coach program starting. If you're a coach, dude, just go over there and get in the email list. I'm putting out almost every single day.

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