Barbell Shrugged - MRI-based Muscle Analysis with Dr. Doug Goldstein #825

Episode Date: November 26, 2025

In this episode, the Barbell Shrugged crew explores how next-generation MRI muscle analysis is transforming the way high-performing athletes train, recover, and prevent injury. Dr. Doug Goldstein walks Anders Varner, Doug Larson, and Travis Mash through Doug Larson's full Springbok Analytics scan a 3D "digital twin" of his musculoskeletal system that reveals muscle volume, asymmetries, and tissue quality with a level of precision traditional assessments can't match. The team breaks down how this data gives coaches a clearer understanding of the body's true strengths, weak links, and compensation patterns the foundational context needed to prescribe smarter, more targeted programming. Using Doug's real data as the case study, the group highlights how seemingly isolated issues like a long-healed posterior hip dislocation can create downstream patterns that affect performance years later. The scan reveals major asymmetries in deep hip stabilizers, psoas imbalances, and elevated intramuscular fat in specific muscles, all of which influence how force is produced and absorbed under load. The conversation emphasizes that measuring muscle quality and not just quantity is essential for identifying tissues that underperform despite looking normal from the outside. They also break down the different types of fat Springbok identifies (visceral, subcutaneous, intermuscular, intramuscular) and why certain compartments are more predictive of movement limitations, metabolic dysfunction, or elevated injury risk. The episode closes with a look at how this new level of precision plugs into a fully integrated high-performance system. Through Optima Muscle, athletes combine Springbok MRI data with movement evaluations, strength testing, and force analysis to build individualized protocols that increase strength, improve resilience, and significantly reduce the risk of non-contact injuries. The team explains why pro athletes are beginning to adopt multi-scan protocols across a season, and how this data-driven approach allows coaches to design programming that targets exactly the right tissues, at exactly the right time. For anyone serious about longevity in training, staying explosive, or eliminating preventable injuries, this episode offers a glimpse into the future of performance diagnostics and precision training. Go to OptimaMuscle.com to learn more!  Links: Doug Goldstein on Instagram Anders Varner on Instagram Doug Larson on Instagram Coach Travis Mash on Instagram

Shrude family this week on Barb Elstrug, Dr. Doug Goldstein is back on the show. And not only are we talking about Springbok analytics, which is the most advanced imaging of your body you've ever, if you've ever got a Dexas scan, this thing is like 1,000 trillion zillion. That's like how I talk to my kids about big numbers. Like one trillion zillion thousand times cooler than just getting like a Dexas scan. Mostly because it's not focused on just getting your body fat tested. In my opinion, getting your body fat test is like kind of playing defense. We're like, oh, I'd like to reduce that. So I eat less.

What this does is gives you the most comprehensive analysis of your actual muscle system. So the quality of the muscle, how much fat is inside the muscle tissue that you have, any asymmetries. And it's such a deep dive that you're able to go and layer the information that you're able to see. So not just the asymmetries, the quality of the muscle, where that muscle is distributed, front to back, side to side, decide. It's incredible how much you can see through this imaging. And right now, rapid health optimization has a very, very cool program that is being launched. If you are in the Austin, Texas area or want to get this analysis done, get over to Austin, because that is where we are launching this. It's a very regional thing. It's only really open for getting the analysis

done is really only open for pro sports teams right now, specifically the NBA. So, If you don't play in the NBA and you like to get this done, guess what? 5-8-192-pound Anders Varner does not play in the NBA. And they don't even offer this in my whole state of North Carolina. It's a disaster. I would even have to go to Austin, Texas, through Rapid to be able to get this done. Guess what? That's not cool.

I need it closer. We need it in more places. And we're going to be rolling this out state by state and city by city as they do this in the very first city that we're going to be rolling. city that we are in for Optima Muscle, which is the name of the program, is in Austin, Texas. So get over to Optima Muscle right now, OptimaMussel.com. You know, this is like one of the coolest interviews I've done. I haven't seen anything new.

I'm just telling you the truth. There's very, very little that I think is new and cool in the strength and conditioning. I love having the talks. I love talking to smart people. I love learning more. But very few things actually blow my mind. And the reason we've had Springbok on here three times and like the last, months is because this is the most cutting edge thing I've seen in like a decade,

at least in the last 500 shows of Barbell Strug. This is the single thing that is the most cutting edge. You've got to go do this thing. If you are interested in performance, if you are interested in muscle health and longevity, you got to go do it. So go check out optimum muscle.com right now. Friends, prepared to get your mind blown. Let's go get into the show.

Welcome to Barbell Strug. Not manager, Doug Larson, Coach Travis Bash. Doug Goldstein. Welcome back to the show. Today on Barb Al Shrugged, we're going to talk about how incredibly imbalanced Doug Larson is.

This is going to be my favorite show. I've been telling him for years. Today, the Springbok analysis has approved my theory of his lack of balance. And Doug Goldstein, we got the afterback, didn't we?

Did you fix him? I don't know if the word fixed is the right word. I think we've got more insights into what Doug can do to improve and optimize for the same. There is. Before we dig into

all the details. I'd love to kind of recap on our last conversation of like what high level, what Springbok analysis is, what you're looking for, what you're testing for, what it shows us, just as kind of a high level for anybody that didn't hear that show

and is going to be wondering why we're showing such in-depth analysis on Doug's musculoskeletal system. I don't even know if that's right. No, it's 100% right. I mean, so Springbok Analytics is a is a fascinating company, a company that Doug and myself, we've had a chance to be around. I've been around a little longer.

Even, you know, Galpin's involved as well. But it's a rapid MRI scan. So what it does is it takes the black and white two-dimensional images that you would otherwise, you probably all seen when you've got an MRI report. And it converts it into a three-dimensional digital twin that shows up on the interactive viewer, which I'm going to show on the screen. The value is that you get a deeper understanding to your commentators of a musculoskeletal system.

Your earlier comment, I don't think this fixes anything, but it gives us information to make really strong recommendations about how to train, how to be more efficient, be more functional. And we'll see that. It's more of an assessment, right, than a tool to fix. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I don't think anything fixes anybody. I think we gain information that we can then educate people to help them become stronger.

Because if you ask me, getting stronger is what fixes people, right? How do you get stronger is really the answer. Yeah, how? Well, hold on. And to that, though, I think I'm going to definitely get the body part wrong or the specific muscle in Doug's core that was causing that he was like very inadequate. I'm going to talk. This is the lack of balance here. But there was like, there was like one tiny little thing that showed up that actually like downstream was causing lots of problems.

Well, yeah. There's really, you're, you're kind of joking about me being super imbalanced. Like I had a posterior hip dislocation many years ago. And so on my left side, which is the side that had the dislocation, my quadratus femurus is one of my deep six external rotators. Must have been like torn a half or deintervated or something where it's basically like half the size it's supposed to be compared to the other side. So other than that, I'm fairly balanced, all things considered. But I didn't know that that was in there. Like when I do clams on my left side, like, you know, lay on my side and put my left knee on the ground and then raise my right knee up and kind of do that clamshell type movement.

Like it's distinctly different on movements like that where all of a sudden like I'm Padeged very quickly on my left side compared to my right. And it like cramps almost in a weird way. Like little things like that show up that and I didn't really fully understand why that might be the case. I don't have like a lot of left hip pain specifically. But after getting a spring box scan and seeing that, oh, wow, this one muscle is 45.8% smaller on my left side.

and the fat infiltration is like 26% as opposed to like one or two percent, which is kind of more normal. I think I may have, I think I set the record potentially for largest imbalance, but not because I'm like truly imbalanced from like a training standpoint, but I had a catastrophic injury that that, that, you know, just kind of blow up that one muscle.

And just to know, Doug, I think you actually, in your subjective form that we went through to kind of understand your past medical history, you're actually dealing with right-sided pain. Your pain is actually like a right-sided sharpness, but you're describing them left-sided muscle in balance,

between the two, correct? Yes, right. I do have more hit pain on my right side than my left. I get sharp pains regularly over the last like two years or so on my right side and have done many things to try to improve that. I kind of manage it, but it's been an ongoing issue. I mean, so right there's our first compensation, you know, the first time we use the word compensation.

Like I'm asking a question without any definitive response, but is that right-sided pain a compensatory overload due to something on the left side, not for the function? that's logical when I talk about compensation I always use the couch analogy hopefully it lands here but it's if we're all four carrying four corners of a pretty heavy couch and and Doug all of a sudden you decide to not do as much work well the couch doesn't magically get lighter it's not like that couch is assuming it doesn't drop Travis Andrews you and I are all gonna feel an increased load we're probably going to twist contort we're going to get greater grip strength in one hand to me that's what compensation is it's an overload of force when it should be more evenly distributed Mm-hmm. And then me as the person who let go of the couch, I'm not the one that gets hurt. One of you guys are the ones that get hurt. Correct. So now that we know that, I think I'm not going to start with your insufficiencies, Doug. We're going to give you the good news first. Oh, yeah. Dude, build me up. I'm going to share my screen. Can you guys make, actually, you don't mind, give me permission to show my screen. You bet, go ahead. And just confirm real quick. Y'all can see, you can see Doug's digital twin.

There you go. Yeah. And for the audience. audience, this is on YouTube as well if you're listening to it. Audio only. So from the side of you, I think I always start here to really understand, Doug, you do not have as flat of a glute max as this shows. Man Springberg delivers these images. It's because you're laying supine or flat on an MRI table. So when we do this, I make sure people understand this is a direct representation of

your muscle system, your architecture. This is you, right? This is you to scale. And if we look at a seven footer, it's going to seem like obviously a very stretched out version of that person. But what we see here, and I'm going to kind of tag the first three things that are really important on the Spring Buck viewer, stop me to any point ask questions. So they could become more fun when we dialogue. But right now, when we look at you from the front, and if you see my cursor, for those that are watching, I'm hovering over the muscle size tab,

which is where we're comparing Doug to the general population. And obviously, that general population is going to be somewhat age-match, sex-matched, normative stuff. So the value here is we can see where Doug is, you know, how is he looking compared to others? If you follow my cursor down to the bottom, you're going to see this interactive tab. You're going to see here. Let's start again to the point of giving you the good news. You are actually extremely well-developed.

And if we look here, I've reduced everything except for the really large muscles that you have compared to the general population. A couple things show up. It's actually interesting that they're all on the back of my body. all my largest muscles are on the backside. Yeah. Guess what you want. So when we look at this, I'm just going to highlight a few glute max.

You're going to see it's an 80 versus a 78. So the left didn't show up, but the right is a little more dominant. Does that match what you said about the left side quadratus femurist? That left side, yeah, potentially there's a relationship. So time out. So why did the left not show up? It was under the threshold for being considered in the high category. but if I bring in the next nearest category,

you're going to see it does show up. So it's just slightly smaller, not like, I see. Exactly. And again, to be very clear, we're talking about the size of the muscle only, right? Literally the milliliters of total volume. That's it. And that's a very important thing to note

because size does not always mean strength, right? You can have large muscles that are underperforming. You can also have small muscles that are completely performing well because they're, you know, call it from the coaching perspective. Travis, neurologically primed, right? Fiber typed in a way that are more efficient, so forth. Right.

So when we bring in that next group of muscles, again, what you're going to notice is, Doug, you lift weights. Like, I can tell it, I know you're extremely strong, you're active. You even mentioned that in your subjective, I think three to four times a week. Is that what you're doing? Yeah, for lifting weights specifically. Kind of jih-jit-to-half the time and lifting weights half the time. And then everything else is kind of after. You're extremely active.

You're extremely active and you use resistance mechanisms within your programming. So if we do the opposite, this is where we kind of break you down. We want to know maybe where you're less sufficient. The good news is you don't have anything that falls below that 50 quarter right there. Now, when we talk about your deep hip, you're going to see that show up in a different way. The reason the grayed out muscles exist here is because we don't currently with Springbok, they're not comparing those to the general population. However, when we go to left-right asymmetry, that's where we're going to say.

see that massive shift in your quadrator's femurus. So let's go ahead and do that real quick and look at the left, right asymmetry and notice the color change. Instead of comparing you to the general populations of disregard that, we're only comparing you to yourself. So if we just draw a line right down the middle is one side bigger than the other in milliliters of volume. To that point here, we have a glute max that is only at a 1.2% deficit in size, you know, milliliters of volume. but then if you flip to the front here, you're going to see that you've got a tensor fascia lota, which is almost at 9% deficit. We get a little more detail.

But this is where we do that exact same. Let's start with your biggest asymmetries. You're going to see right there that quadratus femurus show up at that 45.8% deficit. That means that the left side muscle is 45, almost 46% smaller on the left than the right. and Doug, you mentioned it really well. It's one of the deep six. It's a femoral external rotator. It has a control stability mechanism

to that femur inside that ilium and that socket. Dr. Andy Galpin here. As a listener of the show, you've probably heard us talking about the Artae program, which we're all incredibly proud of. It's a culmination of everything Dan Garland and I have learned over more than two decades of working with some of the world's most elite performers,

award-winning athletes, billionaires, musicians, executives, and frankly, anyone who just wanted to be their absolute best. Artae is not a normal coaching program. It's not just macros and a workout plan. It's not physique transformation and pre-imposed pictures. Artei is something completely different. Aratee is incredibly comprehensive and designed to uncover your unique molecular signature, find your performance anchors, and solve them permanently. You'll be working with not one person, but rather a full team of elite professionals, each with their own special expertise to maximize

precision, accuracy, and effectiveness of your analysis and optimization plan. Artae isn't about treating symptoms or quick fixes. It's about unlocking your full potential and looking, feeling, and performing at your absolute best, physically and mentally, when the stakes are the highest. To learn more, visit Arteelab.com. That's A-R-E-T-E-Lab.com. Now, back to the show. And Doug, you mentioned it really well. It's one of the deep six. It's ephemeral external rotator. it has a control stability mechanism to that femur inside that ilium and that socket. So we can get a ton of information. And if we add in more of these, right, more of these areas where you're asymmetrical,

there is no threshold for saying that that's significant. We're not going to say that 4.8 means that you're at risk of injury. It's just a single data point that has to be paired with other information to really make a complete clinical picture. So I don't want anyone to leave thinking like if it's small, it needs strength. And if it gets strength, it gets better. That's not always the best way to look at it. I'd be actually curious, Travis, your thoughts from the strength side.

How would you handle that information just about showing you at first pass? That's what I'm really trying to, I'm like really trying to look and see. Because, you know, the glued that was weaker was on the same side that the quadratitis from Morse was biggest. And so you think about did his glutes on the right. right side start to take over because the right you know quadratus um for more it was so much smaller so they had to do more external rotations than than it had to on on the less side so that's why is that why that his quad i mean his uh glute is so much strong or bigger on the right side i'm like this is new information so like i'm really trying to put it together in my head like

you know what is causing these things uh i've never had this information for me you know we We've always guessed. We've always guessed. Totally. So this is the first time where we can, like, actually assess this. This is amazing, right? And I, I'm sitting here on my, I'm on my phone looking at the, I'm looking at my anatomy chart here, looking at this.

I'm like, wow. I appreciate that you said that. Because, again, we can't necessarily small, small doesn't necessarily equal week, right? There's plenty of medical literature as small is definitely correlated a week because less size equals less sarcomers packed inside the muscle, which are less force-producing properties. But there's also the thought, though, that, and I'm saying this without a definitive answer, maybe the small muscle is extremely efficient and doesn't need to gain increased size to produce the force necessary for the environment or the task.

And that's why it's not bigger. And that echoes your statement, Travis, potentially maybe that muscle's bigger because it's doing more work and it has to do more work because something else isn't doing enough, like that couch. Yeah. Right. So just more mechanical teaching because it has to. Yes. So I don't leave, you know, I don't think I want people to leave with Springbok saying that we know that because it's 8.7% smaller, it's 8.7% weaker. I don't think we can say that. But what we can say is Doug is, Doug is having issues on his right hip. And it's safe to say that if this left side is understabilizing, underperforming, not doing its full task, there's a plausible exponential. that right side might be undergoing a little more strain, a little more stress, a little more overload. But again, we don't know that on just Springbok alone. We have to, you know,

pair that with the subjective history that Doug said, force data, right? That's where force plates or movement analysis or functional movement screens of source can come into play and really add an additional layer of, you know, I always say it's pairing form and function, right? Like we've got really good form data, but we don't have the function data from Springbok alone. So. So really good, but not necessarily definitive in isolation, right? So then we're going to pause. I'm going to show you the third and final thing on the viewer. Can we go back to the SOAS?

Yeah, glad you asked that. He had one SOAS that was bigger and stronger than the other, or what? Yeah, so his left SOAS, or where I've got my cursor now, Doug, your right SOAS is nearly at a 5% deficit. So 5% smaller in volume. So obviously that we can talk about that in a lot of ways. I can argue that the soaz is a primary hip flexor. Yes.

But I can also argue that it's a lumbopelisk stabilizer. And maybe that's why when you get into a deadlift position, when you're pulling it kind of that 30, 45 degree position, you don't feel that same symmetry or you feel like load shifts between the feet because you're not necessarily stabilizing well on one, you know, one hemipelvis is what I would say. I mean, it could be a lot too And the S is so known for it's like back pain, for example

And so, you know, with an imbalance of the SOS, you know, Could it cause tors it at the lumbar spine, which is, you know, good, you know, answer questions for people who have back pain, you know, like, I know as I strengthened my, you know, used to, we always talked about trying to lengthen it. We thought the SOS, you know, short, it's shortened, so stretch it.

And like, that wasn't a good answer. But like, what we've, at least what I found in the, last two years is the stronger I get my cell ass, you know, symmetrically, that is, the less back pain I have. And so like, you know, this could be, this could really help answer so many questions. It's not guessing in the past. I'm on, I'm on the same camp as you that I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't love static stretching. I don't mean to poo-poo it, but I also think that I think the data is pretty clear, right? You may actually get a performance and torque

dip as compared to a performance improvement from doing something statically. Right. Think about the centrally mediated mechanism there. If your brain, which there's always checks and balances in the body, if your brain knows that SOAS isn't able to produce a symmetrical or sufficient level of force, that brain might lock that muscle down and say, no, no, no, we're not letting you stretch, which means you can't get eccentric lengthening. You can't gain torque.

You can't gain force. And that's what shows up in the system is maybe a. functional deficit during a lift, a jihitsu move or a running mechanism. Sure. I'm sure. The stronger I get my so-ass, the more functional I am, it's so many ways. The stronger I am, the less pain I have. The better I move, the better I squat.

Like, the less I stretch it, the better it's turned out to be. Well, so to that point, let me show you the final thing. And I think this conversation could go many ways. Before you come off this one, I have a question on, I'm pointing to my screen, as if you guys can see it. If you look at Doug's pecks, you see how there's like waves in the muscle there? What is that? I don't have a solid answer. I would have to rely on the engineering team from Springbrook to give us a clear answer. But again, to the point of the glutes being flattened because of the way that they're positioned, it's the way the representation shows up on the interactive viewer.

But I'm going to make note of that and ask that question. I don't have a great answer because that's beyond my horsepower. Yeah, I was wondering if that was like, like, when you look at like a professional bodybuilder, like the striations that show up when they're like super dry and lean, if that's what it looked like actually under the muscle tissue. If I had to guess, it's penitian angle. It's the way the fibers run in the chest. Yeah, that's, and I wonder, like, if you were to be a bodybuilding coach to be able to look at

something like this and specifically look at contraction. and how you would shape training for creating, like, the perfect pack. I would feel bodybellers would absolutely love this. Yeah. Naps, I completely agree. Can't answer that question, but I will, I will, let me do some research and find out. Crazy how in depth the graphic. This is the coolest thing, yeah.

I mean, Doug, I feel like this is a moment where you should start flexing on camera and just show us to the striations. Right. Just tear the shirt off. I mean, I feel like it very likely is just that I have slightly more development like mid and lower peck and just slightly less development in upper peck, which which probably maps my training pretty well these days. Like I do I do a lot more decline bench for like shoulder. You know, I've, I just not just good. I had a slap chair on my left shoulder many years ago and have, you know, chronic shoulder kind of achiness and issues and decline bench is just like the, the friendliest barbell movement that I can do as far as pressing goes these days. So I do I do more of that than other things.

So maybe over time, I've just developed more lower peck hyperchophy and slightly less in comparison with upper peck. Yeah, I wasn't even looking at the imbalances and more like the makeup of the muscle is kind of what it looks like in that, again, I use the word striations. It may be something else that it's showing graphically, but that's really what it looks like of like. Yeah. I don't wish you weren't laying on your back doing this in the MRI because I think that like the craziest part when you see like really. Dried out, jacked up bodybuilders on stage is when you look at their glutes and you're like, oh my gosh. Like you can see the striated glutes. The striations and their glutes are so crazy.

But yeah, go ahead, man. I just, I find that wildly interesting. Yeah. It's a good comment. So I'm going to add everything back in and make the final push here on the third major thing that Stringbox Interactive viewer can give us. Obviously, Doug, you can see on camera, people have met you before. You're not, you're a lean guy, right? don't have a ton.

We'll talk about your body comp report in a second as a nice transition. But when we, when they look at fat infiltration, I think the word we should consider here is intra, right? Intra being inside the muscle fat. So if we go back to your comment earlier, Doug, that quadratus femurus having a 45.8% deficit, well, it's also got a massive increase in fat inside that muscle. So I think for the, you know, the research community, there's one way to look at this and there's a simpler version for the performance community, which is not that there's a disconnect,

but I think intramuscular fat is a great way to consider the quality of the tissue, right? We can appreciate the volume, but then what's the quality of that volume? I always do a very elementary way of explaining this, but if a cup is only so big, let's say that's 16 ounces, and that's how big your muscle is. Now we have an understanding of what's actually inside the cup as far as percentages of whether it be muscle tissue or fat tissue. to me personally oh good sorry Travis I'm just curious you know once you have fat infiltration where you know you have your injury and then that's what happens is there anything that you can do

about that can you is there anything to do to get rid of that 100% I mean that's resistance training providing the right stimulus I was on with a very well-known musculoskeletal researcher from podova the other day and what they're finding in immobilized patients is there's probably a better stimulus at So if you think about a rehab protocol, you're not going to ask a person post ACL to do heavy anders to your background, barbell squatting right away. But maybe that's not the necessary stimulus to create a change and mess with fat oxidation. But there probably is a benefit to getting on a cycle and doing a light resistance and just getting blood flow to the muscle so that muscle starts neurologically becoming more. I'm going to use the word active, but I think a better way to say it is

less inhibited, right? As you reduce the inhibition, the muscle starts to produce and do, you know, do more work. And then we can apply that in different situations throughout exercise and the exercise continuum. How does a like soft tissue work and dry needling or or stem units, etc. play into this, like, especially for targeting like such a specific site in this case. Yeah. I know. It's just a minute spot. Yeah. No, it's, that's a phenomenal question. And I think if you go from more superficial, so think of like an external stimulus, like a pad put on top the skin to delivering a current to a muscle. And you compare that to sticking a needle very distinctly into a muscle, like if you're an ultrasound guided dry needling or so forth. We can definitely see changes.

That's the bulk of my life's research is understanding the intramuscular dry needling aspect and the panation angle changes that can occur with different frequencies and wavelengths. I've seen a ton of research or a ton of good success slash and I'll show that research in the future, but penation angle is modifiable, right? And there's decent data in stroke patients who are spasticity. If you're familiar with spasticity, you know, those muscles are in a chronically shortened or guarded state. There is data that shows dry needling can alter the spastic state or change the penation angle in a positive way. By changing that panation angle, you're realistically giving an increase in extensibility. but in simple rudimentary way to say this is like if the rubber band can stretch it probably has an ability to recoil and generate force and produce something back to the world or back to the

environment or exercise. All right. So now that we've kind of tagged all three questions on all three of these before we have to hit the other part of this, which is getting into Doug's body comp report, which is an additional aspect that Springbok offers. I've got a question. And now that I've heard about it for maybe we've talked about it on a few shows, but like is there is there specific MRI that for springbrock or can I go get an MRI and then send it to you guys and then you analyze it. Like how does that tell me how that works.

I know if I'm confused, our listeners might be. Yeah, it's a great question. And we, you know, we feel that quite often with with springbok. when you look at a let's say you get a knee MRI Travis if you were to go get a knee MRI they're only going to look at a certain portion of the body they don't need to scan the entire system

to understand what's going on at the level of the knee sure there are also something called slices which is basically think of slicing meat if you wanted to slice a prime rib right like you're going to slice it whatever thickness you think is appropriate so when we look at those black and white images those are all slices built

based around protocols So Springbok has designed a protocol that captures the necessary amount of slices to create boundaries around every muscle. And when I say boundaries, think about encapsulating the muscle from its most proximal to its distal point. You cannot send Springbok an old MRI and say, please convert it. You have to go through their rapid protocol, rapid, not rapid health, but like their rapid MRI to capture the image. Because what they do is what's considered post-a-procuit. post-processing or segmentation using AI as well as human interaction, you know, that segmentation creates the opportunity we're seeing on screen, which is where we can visualize muscle and

understand things like the volume from proximal distal, the fat inside that volume along the length. So is it a specific spring block MRI or is it a protocol that you would go and say, hey, MRI me with this protocol? Protocol. So it's not a specific scanner. It's not like you got to go to the the Springbok GE, Springbok Siemens, whoever it may be, you don't have to go to that right. It's an MRI machine that has the fidelity, right? We talk about that in terms of Tesla, right? 1.5 free Tesla.

There's fancier coming out at all times. But right now, Springbok can use a standard MRI machine with their protocol to produce the post-processing, which allows the interactive viewer moment we're looking at. Got it. Awesome. Cool. Any other questions on the three things that are displayed here? Yeah, that's super cool.

Just for summer, we had muscle size comparisons. We had left, right, asymmetries, and we had fat infiltration. So we had like quality, quantity, and then a symmetry piece. Definitely. I'm going to stop sharing my screen for a second to pull up your body comp, so just bear with it. If you're viewing it, you're not losing anything here. So hold on one second. Yeah.

Dude, I was so excited about this for for so long, by the way. Like, I've talked about muscle mass percentage. on the show, on this show many, many, many times for years and have waited, I've been waiting for someone to finally pull this off. And so I was, I was stoked to hear that you guys over Springbok actually made this happen. Well, I mean, it's, it's, I say a long time coming. Oh my God, this is so cool. But you got to, I think we have to take a moment and appreciate what Springbok's doing for the world. It's never been done before like this, right? We've all, I mean, I think everyone on this call has had a Dexa. Is that correct? We've all had some Dex's report sometimes.

For sure. It's okay. And I'm not going to, I will never, I don't believe in saying it's bad. It's just sometimes feels like you're wanting more maybe than it's giving you. Is that a fair statement? Yeah. Yeah. It's giving you eight components of your body composition.

So now that we've pulled up Doug's body comp, we can obviously look at the screen and see here, you know, how you've got a lean muscle, the lean muscle percentage of 42, 42.1 to be specific. We're going to tag a few things. So I think the devil's in the details here in a good way. intramuscular fat, which we highlighted per each individual muscle. But there's even more than that, right? There's subcube. There's intermuscular. And we'll talk about the difference between those two.

So for the audience is like the fat that you think about as being fat. That's the fat you can grab onto. That's your belly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally. So if we go back to Dex, I don't, again, I think a Dex is good, but I think it's limited, right? It gives us numbers like bone, fat, and then also something called lean mass, which is just a catch-all.

That's things like muscle, water, connected tissue, organs, blood, all of it, kind of thrown into one pot, right? So it doesn't tell you really anything about the type of tissue or the quality of that tissue or actually where that quality or tissue is. It's really, to me, the differentiation of MRI is MRI shows you again to your point. What you're seeing here is subcue, visceral, inter-intra, individual muscle volumes, as well as side-to-side asymmetries based on that. have been muscle size relative to the population norms,

which we just went through on the viewer. So, Doug, you kind of nailed it, but I think the cleanest way to say it is, Dexter gives you quantity, but MRI gives you both quantity and quality. Yes. Over time, I feel like quality of the muscle

is way more interesting to me. I agree. Like the, once you get to, yeah, I can't remember the exact number off the top of my head right now, but there's like, there's like a limit to your genetic potential to just stack on extra meat. But to know the quality of that meat is like,

I want lion meat. I don't want that like just bad okay meat. And this really tells like a much more comprehensive story than just like, you've got my mouth. Great. That's how I felt like, here's my percentage. I'm at dinner with friends.

I can joke and be like, oh, my body fat percentage is X. but then like I'm kind of going what else what is it doesn't give me any more than that right it's just a moment to share something and kind of flex or not flex depending on the number you know I'm really wondering like right now we would consider the VL2 max to be the number one predictor of lifespan but like I wonder with this in time with enough you know with enough research enough people like just to know like how much visceral fast one has you know because if you're that's just guarantee you're that's just guarantee you but like a power lifter, you're probably a healthier human than 30% body fat with no lifting background. But like, what is that? I guess. Is that like dirty? I mean, there's nuance to it.

But like understanding what those like those like dirty people actually do to you when you're just like stammering. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, I agree that. Brilliant. It's massive. Like that differentiation is.

massive. So on the screen here, I'm actually going to transition to talk more about the intra and inter. And I'm, I'm going to emphasize each when I say it, because I don't want to get confused. Inter again versus intra, two totally different things. So that key distinction between the two is that it is really this. So now that you see how the muscle contains different fat compartments based on the scan here, I think we have to ask what really is that difference. and to me that drives or is the heart of the conversation, right? Intermuscular fat is the fat between the muscle groups, right, and under the fashion. In a way, it actually behaves a little more like visceral fat, even though they're separated,

because we can see that there's two different kinds here. And I don't think most people realize there's that many different compartments of the fat inside your body. There was a really great article in 23 by Goodpastor, where he describes intermuscular fat as like an ectopic fat depot. So it basically can expand within activity, right, aging and metabolic dysfunction. So Travis, to your point of like all cause mortality and VO2 being great for the heart, there's another, there has to be a different thought there for like what else can we know about the body and what relates to that, you know, I say the word longevity.

I realize that's an overall encompassing word there, but you get what I'm saying. lifespan, whatever, yeah. Yeah, right. Well, then a different article showed us that intramuscular adipose tissue and intramuscular fat, it actually reduces skeletal muscle insulin sufficiency, right?

Or sensitivity. So then I look at this and go, Dan Garner, where are you? Because now we can talk about how to make an optimize certain factors that are related to that. A different one is that it also talks about glucose

dysregulation and Travis, to your point, cardio metabolic stress, that was, I think that was in 25, a recent article by Camacho Cardinosa, where they've, they tied those things together where your cardiometabolic system has a relationship to the intermuscular fat levels present in the body.

Really? So would you, would you say the intermuscular fat is probably more, it's probably a bigger indicator of, you know, overall dysfunction than visceral fat? They don't want to say it's into the visceral fat comment. I'd rather say it's more, we have to understand that there's intermuscular fat and it's biologically active. It's a biologically active fat depot, right? So it's not harmless. I think we've probably heard before, and you're like your fat stores, you know, bad things and it can create pro-inflammatory cytokines and drive inflammatory stress across the body. I sound like a puppet or, you know, myma bird to garner. You can't grow muscle no matter what the stimulus is if the body's in a,

you know, inflammatory dysregulated state. So there is a need to understand how can we improve that in conjunction with all the things that we all want to talk about, which is training performance, right? We have to consider the bigger picture. So then, I mean, oh, go ahead. God, stomach. I'm sorry, I just have so many questions. So, like, to get rid of intermuscular fat,

is it just, you know, obviously burning more calories, you know, or like, you know, doing proper cardio that's going to, you know, it's going to attack more fat oxidation or, But you know, so like when I jog, is it going to get all of these types of fat equally or what? That I can't answer. I don't know if I'm able to say that. But the good news is that we can reduce intramuscular fat, which I'll tag in a second as well as intermuscular fat. Because you can decrease it with structured training, right?

You can change that stem cell behavior and shift away from fat formation. you can improve perfusion blood flow to the research of padova right local fat oxidation can increase you know if you start to address this right through the correct mechanisms you can reduce this both intra and inter and visceral fat but we've all kind of known that i think we're just providing a level of granularity to this and saying there's different fat compartments in the body and each of them has somewhat a different role to the system and you've got to be able to test and monitor in And, you know, like, yeah, we've known this, but we've never had a way to assess it and see is what I'm doing improving. You know, there's someone's guessing in the weight rooms in America right now.

Totally. Well, and that's where you can't measure it. You can't change it, right? I hate guessing. Yes, exactly. Well, so pause for a second. Let's go back and tag the other part where my cursory is. So now we know intermuscular fats, a biologically active fat depot that has some connections to other systems like we mentioned.

intramuscular fat fat that inside the muscle boundary that's woven amongst those fibers well we know that talks about the integrity of the muscle tissue right and we know that fat actually intramuscular fat reduces the internal muscle integrity

that was your Shiko's work but in 2015 a while ago I believe it was Rahim you don't quote me on that but they they showed that fat infiltration inside the muscle changes the compliance and reduces the stress of the fiber.

So think of it as like, yes, you have a muscle, but it's not resistant or resilient enough to absorb the force and basically, you know, stop a muscle from not working during a lift or how do we make sure that kinetic chain is optimized? I think that's, I think the most important part is there's a local factor as well as a more systemic or global factor like intermuscular fat. So if it's, if intramuscular fat's a direct marker of compromised tissue, quality. Again, intermuscular fats, more like a biologically active fat depot that it kind of signals in a muscle. So if you have a lot of, and let's think about sarcopenic or very aged,

you know, weakened individuals. If you have those individuals that are lots of fat in the muscle, as well as lots of fat between the muscle, there's not a lot of room for muscle. And we know that obviously having muscle means being able to produce force and move, right? Those are really, really important distinctions to me. Sure. I actually had pulled up an article. I'm actually, I'm going to read it, look at it here, but what they found out is that intermuscular fat in paredic legs of stroke survivors, so legs that are not necessarily

doing their job because of inhibition due to a central brain-mediated mechanism. They showed some changes in the tumor necrosis alpha factor and that that inflammatory process is increased in those legs. But that all makes sense to us in a very simple way. We know if you don't use it, you lose it. But now we know that if you don't use it, you're going to get infiltration of fat in varying compartments that can affect overall performance and function. One of the other things that I thought was fascinating about that article, not that article per se, but they showed after 30 days of limb suspension. So basically immobilization, not using it.

In younger individuals, they saw like 15 to 20 percent increase in intermuscular fat. in the calf and thigh. So that increase in intermuscular fat exceeded the loss of lean tissue, suggesting that the interfat was not just merely filling the space left by lean tissue. So if you don't use the muscle, something else is going to come in and infiltrate that area. Again, in varying ways, in varying compartments. But the crazy part about that was that increase in intermuscular fat, it accounted for

a 4 to 6% loss of strength, which again emphasizes that that inner storage depot, it plays a role inactivity. Sure. That fat doesn't do anything. It doesn't create motion. It just inhibits. Yeah. Yeah.

To kind of summarize that, I would like to, I mean, when we look at those, knowing there's different compartments, knowing that Springbok can measure that as a standalone metric is not going to solve the equation for you, Doug, not that you need solving. but now we have an appreciation for the size of your muscles, the differences side to side, comparison and norms. We also now have an appreciation for the storage of your fat crossed your body, right, in a global way. And we know that that intramuscular fat signals metabolic stress

and that intramuscular fat signals tissue quality decline. So now that we can measure both of those, we can have a better understanding of where you are. And not that we can compare your fat to mine or Anders or Travis or yours, but Doug, if you were to get a repeat scan, we can look at those training stimuli that were provided and ask ourselves, to your point, Travis, of like, I hate guessing.

No, this is a better program for you because we've seen a change in the ratio because we have two objective time points that are both accurate. Mm-hmm. You're zooming out a little. I was going to zoom it, zooming out a little bit. Looking at the bottom of this chart,

there's the ratio of, there's a couple of ratios, but there's a ratio of lean muscle over all the different types of fat. And my ratio is two. If you look at just pure lean muscle to, to subcutaneous fats, more like three. Travis, you talked about V-O-2 max earlier.

We talked about body fat percentage earlier. Like, everyone kind of knows the standards for body fat percentage. Like, if you're 15%, we kind of have an idea what that means relative to 25% or 35% or 45% or 45%. And we all know that being obese, if you're 45% body fat,

like that's bad news. Like you got some work to do. and everyone understands that being that overweight is going to cause a lot of problems. Being undermuscled as an example, like I'm 42% body fit or muscle mass rather. If I was 22% muscle mass, like we would understand, especially after having looked at this data here and knowing that I'm 42% that that's that's a problem. Like being under muscled is an issue. But for most people, since the vast majority of the world is not done muscle mass percentage,

they don't have any quantifiable metrics about about how under muscled they actually are. Most people are going to look at themselves and be like, well, I'm, I'm thin. I'm sorry. I'm thin and lean and probably good enough. Like I'm not fat and not overweight, but they don't know how under muscle they are. And there's no standards for it. Again, back to the Vigo two max comment from earlier, we understand the standards. If you're in the 20s versus 30s versus 40s versus 50s versus 60s, like if you're in the 20s, like, if you're in the 60s, like, you're in pretty damn good shape. And we understand the normative values there. And for muscle mass, people don't commonly know this.

If you go to a personal trainer and say like what's what's an ideal muscle mass percentage for this person, even like experienced trainers and even bodybuilders and like people that are really in the industry, they're not going to have a good answer for you. But having this kind of data over time. Yeah. Right. Having this kind of data over time, there will be standards for that eventually. And back to the original comment about the ratio, like though there will be standards for

muscle to fat ratio and having body fat percentage, muscle to fat ratio, muscle mass percentage, VL2 Max, like it's the aggregation of all this data collectively that tells you how healthy you are from a physical performance standpoint. And this kind of data, I think, is going to be, it's going to be standard practice at some point. Right now, it's brand new, but 10, 20 years from now, we're going to look back and be like, man, like, I can't believe we didn't have that even just 20 years ago. Bone percentage for bone density. I mean, you got so much information right here that you would have to go over here, get the information on this. Go over here, get the information on

this. It's just right here. You know, if you had your view. to max and that I feel like you can really give a person a good idea of life expectancy you know something you know something you know and only in this oh go ahead sorry I was going to say and this doesn't replace all the other all the other data it adds to all the other data like everyone everyone knows in our and like kind of our flagship program at here at rapid like we have a ton of data that we collect with all of our clients from many different angles with all with all the labs and performance testing et cetera this is just one more piece of objective, high precision data that we can add to our programs that gives us

one more perspective on how to improve someone's health. So from, from Doug's comments earlier, like you do need this kind of data, but then also you need real world movement and performance data. Like you need some type of a real e-val so you can see range of motion compensation patterns and how people move in the real world from like a kinematic perspective. And then you need performance testing and see how strong somebody is from an absolute strength perspective. Also from like a side the side, asymmetry, you know, left leg versus right leg, how much you step on your left leg or right? How much do you like an overhead press with a dumbbell on your right arm versus your left arm? Like that type of symmetry data from a performance standpoint from like a kinetic

standpoint also matters. Take all that data collectively all together along with subjective data and performance goals, et cetera. That's how you actually build true like very high quality program for somebody because you have all the data from many perspectives. You see you see where the patterns are. you see where they need work, not just from one data set, but from multiple data sets. And you go, okay, this is where we need to put our priorities and where to attack, so to speak. It's extremely well said. And I think I'm going to reiterate that point that this is not a predict. This doesn't, this data alone doesn't predict.

There's no way to say that. But again, pairing that with all the other data makes a huge difference. The only thing, Travis, I know mentioned this, but when you look at the report, to be very clear, this composition report, not giving bone density. You still have to get that somewhere else. Springbok is actually aware of that. I think they're actively working on it. We can talk to Matt Brown, who I think was on one of your last episodes. We're not doing bone density. They're not doing bone density, but we are giving an appreciation for the, again, quality and quantity of tissue in a way that we've never seen before using MRI and using the Springbok analytics exam. Yeah, you guys do bone mass,

bone mass percentage, but not specifically bone density. On the bow. On the bow, bones front, you also have very precise metrics on like long bone length. So if you have like a limb like asymmetry, you can very clearly see like your, your femur on your left side is, you know, one centimeter or a half centimeter, whatever it is longer than your femur on your right side. So having that kind of data, again, regarding compensation patterns and performance and asymmetries, et cetera, is also a very, very cool, my opinion. Yeah, totally.

So, you know, Travis, to your point earlier, it takes the guesswork out of understanding the muscle in the system. It really just doesn't. It's never been seen before, but it doesn't, as a clinician, right? It doesn't replace clinical judgment. It doesn't replace good coaching. It's an adjunct in addition to. It allows us to have more fidelity to make more informed decisions,

which ultimately should lead to a better outcome. Yeah. I mean, I don't understand sometimes when coaches worry about like assessments, replacing anything. It's just, all it's doing is helping prove, you know, to like prove your starting point. And then prove, you know, did it work or did it not? And who cares if it didn't? Now, you know, it didn't.

So we need to take a different direction. So it's just, it's awesome. I love, it's the same reason I love velocity-based training or force plate or rapid's blood work. It's just, you know, it takes the guessing. And if you're working with, you know, high output athletes or, you know, or CEOs, you can't guess, like, you know, not for long at least. Yeah.

And you may get lucky at times, right, Travis. There's times where you'll get lucky and you'll make the right recommendation based on a clinical intuition. But now you can look at the client and say, look, here's what we see. Here's what we know. We're going to do our best with this information to make the most informed decision. And then we're going to track you, right? You still have to have coaching and tracking to make sure those changes are taking the way you expect them. Exactly.

That's all it is. It's like tracking, the scene of it's working. Yes or no. So, yes. I love this. I mean, how accessible is this? Like how, I mean, like, you got to live in a certain place now to get, like, I mean, I'm curious just for my own, you know, clients. Like, how accessible is Springbok now?

Springbok has partners all across the country. So what that means is if you live, like Doug, for example, you can explain where you got your scan. We set that up through that partner site. They uploaded the protocol. They ran a test protocol to make sure that they were going to capture correctly. I know we're launching optimum muscle in Austin and an imaging partner that's very good for us. And if you were in a location where we didn't have or Springbok didn't have the protocol uploaded, it's possible to upload it.

We just need to, you know, contact Springbok needs to contact them and make sure that everything is dialed and ready to go. But Doug, I'll pause and let you share because I know Austin's a big deal for this because we're trying to do this in a current program where we take this data and give really guided education, advice and training. Yeah, you're right. We have a program called Optum muscle where Springbok and yourself are a really big part of it. And we do have kind of the best infrastructure. And Springbok has the best infrastructure in Austin for what we are specifically doing. There's multiple MRI centers. They've all been trained up on this. They know how to do the very specific scans. There is some opportunity to do it in other large cities. There's some amount of training and whatnot that needs to happen for the imaging centers there. But Austin's kind of the most reliable place at the moment. So we have Optum muscle launching in Austin right in this. moment. So if you're in Austin or are you willing to travel to Austin, that's the best option. If you want to do it and you're not in Austin, but you're close to a large city, there's still like there's still some opportunity that we very likely could get you in.

It might take a little bit longer. Awesome, we can just go right away. And or again, if you can travel to Austin. If you're in Dallas, we want to just drive down. It's probably the best best case scenario. But if you're in a big city, we can make it happen. But Austin will be the fastest way to make it happen. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Yeah. More, more, more clarity. on that. More clarity on the, like similar to what I said earlier, like, again, Springbok is a big part of it. But then we also have, as a part of it, you come in, get your Springbok scan, you get a physical therapy evaluation with another member of our team, all your movement data, all your

compensation patterns, range of motion, et cetera. Then you work with our strength, condition coaches, do a host of performance testing, et cetera. Once we have all that data, Springbok, movement, and performance, again, we put it all together. we have many members on our team, PhD physiologists, et cetera, that look at it all, score it and come up with a game plan for not only how to get you to your existing goals, whether you're a triathlet or your NFL player or whatever you are, but also how to kind of fix these problems so they don't limit your performance in the future, and they also don't end up causing an injury down the line.

As we all know, like preexisting injuries, the number one predictor of injury, especially for non-contact injuries. The number two predictor of injury is movement A's. symmetry when you're just like you're just playing a sport and all of a sudden boom you just like your knee just pops like it didn't happen in that moment that's been a long time coming and all of a sudden that's just like the straw that the camel's back and there's a reason that that joint was taking on more stress than it should there's a reason that one knee hurts and the other knee doesn't hurt it's not just because you run a lot or else both your knees are hurt equally like one is taking more stress in a

different way than the other because you're compensating in some way even if you're not aware of it and so it's the combination of all this data collectively and then you know a whole team of experts on on our that can look at it all, score it, quantify it, and then develop a hyper-specific training program for how to fix those problems to help perform it your best and then also help you, you know, reduce the opportunity or now I'm called an opportunity, reduce the risk of future injury. I got a question just for you. Yeah. Oh, I was going to say to your point.

Oh, go ahead, Travis. No, you go ahead. I'm sorry. You're the guest. No, no. You said it perfectly, Doug. I just, I think it's simple. I tend to like to think of it this way when I talk to patients.

and clients and people are talking about this. You don't have you search history on the internet, right? People can see where you've been. They can kind of track the places you've looked at. It's kind of like muscle memory, but in a different way at this point. We're like we're getting your muscle memory by looking at where your tissue is. And I think that that's a clean way to say, like if we know where you've been poor quality, lesser size, it helps us put a better picture together of understanding what you've done in the

past and where you may or may not be moving well and how we can optimize that with a guided plan. yeah 100% what would be the difference in your new this you know optimal and like you know rapid or you know like they're both seem similar so that oh with the RTA program

yeah like what are the yeah the RTA is a much more comprehensive program it's really focus on on labs and kind of more your your internal physiology of your entire body that's why we do blood urine blood urine hair stool saliva is kind of like

the centerpiece of that program along with you know, many, many other things. But this is not a lab-based program. This is, this is like a movement performance program with kind of Springbok at the center of it. So it's a muscle health and performance program rather than like a total body health and performance program. So RTA is a much bigger program. And that's like our flagship thing. We've been doing that for many years. It's very successful. And it's totally awesome. This is, this is like a much smaller, much smaller, more focused program because it's like a muscle-centric program as opposed to like a total body program would they ever like somewhat would you ever have one of your you know um arid

clients do this too like they combine the two yeah very often people do it together yeah for for r s a yeah well very often we'll will roll this into an rata program uh again just depends on what somebody's looking for but uh for people to want like the full package they'll they'll do it all at the same time as a part of like yeah comprehensive program yeah you have everything is my point is like you would have you would know everything about your body if you did both well yeah so actually for just for clarity we've been doing spring box scans with clients for a long time like not not for every client but for many many many clients we've we've done these scans and it's been a part of the program we've just recently just splintered this off as its own separate individual program for people that just

they're you know primarily professional athletes that that want to have a muscle specific program and and they want to perform at their best and ward off injury but they're not trying to do all the other again, blood, your and hair, or saliva, lab type stuff and, and nutrition and supplements and, and, you know, sleep optimization and stress optimization and on and on, like, they're not trying to do all those other categories. Like, they just, they just want, like, the highest quality workouts they can, and they want to keep their bodies in the best shape they can, so to speak, from, from, like, an injury and performance standpoint, so they can stay in the league for the long, the longest time possible.

So, you know, if you're a professional baseball player and you're making $3 million a year and you can stay in the league for two or three more years than you would otherwise, because you haven't, you know, had Tommy John surgery or blowing your, blowing your ACL or whatever it is, then from like a income standpoint, it's totally worth the investment. Well, Travis, to that point, if we look at the NBA, who's a partner of Springbok, they're doing three time point scans across many partners where they do the entrance exam, you know, the preseason scan, kind of call it midseason, all-star break scan,

and then postseason just to see how things change. The difference between what general consumers and pro teams have is literally a team, right? Like if you look at a pro team, they've got a strength conditioning coach, a head of training, a head of PT, a medical doctor, right? All these things. I'm not saying Rapid's or Optima Muscles replacing that, but it's an attempt at giving people access to a similar level style of team that they otherwise wouldn't have available to help interpret and guide.

Would you guys open this up to other like coaches to like send their, you know, like to send their clients or athletes to you guys to give the report and then they take the information and, you know, dove out the, you know, the program? Or would you rather just get, you know, I'm just curious for myself is really what I'm getting at. Sure. Yeah, no, we're definitely opening. We're definitely open to partnering with people. If you have athletes that need this, but you already have a team on your end and you just want some support, then, yeah, we're totally down to partner and help out.

Just send us on, on, you know, just message to us on Instagram or you can, you know, email me. I'm Doug at Rapid Health Optimization.com. and we can work it out. It's amazing. I think we've done all the where you can find us, but Doug Goldstein, be quick. Tell the people about optimal muscle.com. Optum muscle is, again, like we said,

it's a more complete understanding how to individualize your training and strength training and movement assessments like Doug mentioned earlier. It's the attempt at bringing pro-style protein level information and analytics in a more direct way. Coach Travis Mash. Mashlead.com.

I think what you guys are doing is like cutting edge, as always. I mean, coming to expect it from you guys. I love it. Douglas E. Larson. Yeah, I appreciate it, MASH. Yeah, I'm on Instagram, Douglas E Larson. And again, go to Optima Muscle.com. Check this program out, especially if you're in the Austin area.

There you go. I'm Anders Varner at Anders Varner. We're Barbell shrugged, Barbell underscore shrug. Get over to Optima Mosul, all this cool stuff. This really is super badass. I feel like 500-something episodes or whatever. it is of this show. I hear almost nothing new and this is

like three shows and every time it gets cooler that we do on Springbok. So it's really, really awesome to see all this stuff and where we can kind of take probably like the next phase of strength conditioning and understanding muscle health is a large

piece of this. I feel like so much of humans focus on just like reducing fat, but nobody's talking about like the how do we go on offense by building muscle part. And the more we just focus on fat loss, like defense, defense,

when the best people in every game are always trying to play offense of just build muscle and go attack big problems. So very, very cool stuff. Plus, I think we proved today that it's an ambiguous term to say lose fat. Lose what kind of fat? Inter, you know, subcube.

You probably go on exactly what you just said, which is something we should totally. do. It should be awesome. Fantastic teams. This was great. And Doug, I really appreciate all this stuff. Yep. Awesome. Thanks, Doug. Day on Barbos shrug. We're going to talk about how incredibly imbalanced

Doug Larson is.