Barbell Shrugged - Old Man Strength: How Train Better With Age - EP 195

Episode Date: September 16, 2015

Who say’s you have to grow grey and weak with age?    That’s what most believe. That after an early peak the body will wear and break, and lifting weights just won’t be very fun anymore.   But is that true, or does the descent begin the moment you stop having a good time?   There is a remedy, but the answer isn’t to train more intensely. There’s nothing for you to prove.    With the love and support of family, and great teammates by your side, there will be no limits to your strength.      And ultimately, your most productive and blissful lifting years will begin the moment you start having fun again.

This week on Barbell Shrugged, we are on the road in North Carolina for the Travis Mash Strength Spectacular. We talk about what it takes to be strong for life, and why the secret to getting old man strength starts with having a good time. Hey, this is Rich Froning. You're listening to Barbell Shrugged. For the video version, go to barbellshrugged.com. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Barbell Shrugged. I am Chris Moore. Joined here this pleasant, awesome evening by Doug Larson. Doug, how you doing, man? Drinking scotch.

There's Doug. To my right, Alex Macklin. What up? We'll get into his exploits soon. He had a great day today. Unbelievable day. Barbell Shrugged, weightlifting coach. Hell of a good guy.

Crushed it. And let me point him out, folks. Joining us tonight, the special guest host, Travis Mash. Travis, how are you, man? I'm glad to be back. I'm glad to be back with you guys. This is the first time you've been on since we were done in the Miami Classic. The Miami Classic, well, a couple months ago now.

Yeah. We had you on a little bit to talk about the coaching relationship you fostered with the athletes. We're back now. Tell us why we've come to the, what part of North Carolina are we in now specifically? We are in – Winston-Salem area. We're in Advance. Advance, North Carolina.

North Carolina, which none of you have heard about. Nobody. We'll go to Winston-Salem. The Winston-Salem area. Yes. It's a beautiful area. We've come into town for the MASH Strength Spectacular. Tell us a little bit just quickly before we get into the meat of the show, Trap,

what you aim to achieve here today in this event. Well, my wife and I were walking around the farm one day, and we were like, man, we should put on a competition. And then my wife was like, why not put on multiple competitions? Yeah, we should do weightlifting, powerlifting. That's a challenge. And then I'm like, we should do strongman. And she's like, why don't you do grid style?

You do that grid style stuff anyway. I'm like, we should do strong, man. And she's like, why don't you do grid style? You do that grid style stuff anyway. I'm like, okay. And then we sat down at the kitchen table and we made this plan. And then I started thinking, wow, I'm going to bring in all the people I care about from all these different areas to come together and learn about each other. And realize that we're all doing the same thing. We're using the barbell to get better, not only, you know, as, you know, being strong athletes, but we're using it to become better people and we're, you know, using it for that, you know, community and family.

To learn about each other. Yeah. Learn about each other. And so it worked. What was your impression of the day, man? Oh, it was awesome. I mean, they had powerlifting and grid and strongman. I mean, we saw dudes throw kegs above like mavericks.

And that was the first time you've been to a powerlifting meet, wasn't it? Pretty much. Like the three event powerlifting meet. Yeah, it was intense. It's a whole other different. It's way different from weightlifting. Yeah, what I love about it, Travis, I think you perfectly demonstrated how strength sports are rooted in a real common community aspect.

So common. It was the first meet I've been to in a long... Meets are always fun in different ways, but if it gets in a hotel ballroom and everybody's showing up to try to win that bitch, there's a high level of competition. It's stiff. It's a little bit...

You don't want people to lose, but you'd rather beat them. There's that vibe no doubt and that wasn't around today no today was just like you know

you're trying to set PRs yeah you're trying to do your best and you know and maybe some people are trying to win but at the end of the day we were just getting together

to lift every ship and lift every ship and have a great time and you know like it was my vision really you know

the York barbell you know the picnics they used to have. And that, too, inspired me. And, like, I'm always like, man, that would be so cool if a bunch of people just got together, just wanted to lift heavy weights, wanted to eat, drink, and be merry all together. And today it happened, and it was awesome. Yeah, so for those who don't know, York barbell was, like, an epicenter of physical culture on the east part of the United States. In the Pennsylvania area, wasn't it?

Yeah, it was in York, Pennsylvania. And, you know, gosh, I'm blanking out on the dude's name who ran that. I'll remember in a moment. Sure. Well, the Scotch is at work. Yeah, the Scotch is at work. We have these Scotch episodes with Travis. But literally, they were the Olympic Training Center before the Olympic Training Center.

So people would go there and train for weightlifting. But at the York picnics, they wouldn't just do weightlifting. They would do strength events and some straw men. People were just lifting heavy stuff, man. And that's what I wanted, and that's what happened. It was so cool. So I would go to the weightlifting, watch you and Nathan and Dylan do their thing. Weightlifting platform set up amongst a horse stable. It was really fucking novel, man. go over to the weightlifting, you know, watch you and, you know, Nathan and Dylan do their thing.

We have a platform set up amongst the horse stable. It was really fucking novel, man. Really cool. It was, it was straight farm over there. It was straight farm. Alex was dropping his warmup tips and they were like sinking into the mud on the side.

I mean, you were basically pulling from the deficit, which was, made it, made it a lot harder, but once you went and gone on that platform, I mean, that bar flew.

Yeah, you got a little advantage, right? So then I would walk back over to powerlifting, you know, and go in that. It was like seeing, you know, because I've done both, and so I would go over there and I would remember all the things that's, you know, impacted my life in weightlifting. Then I would come to powerlifting,

I would remember all the things that's impacted my life in that sport. Just so people know, you had some really high achievements in the sport. Paxton, was you a world champion, world record holder for a while? Three-time world champion. You know, I broke the all-time world record twice. So I totaled 24.08 in 2004, then 24.14 in 2005. What were your best three lifts, Trav, just so people know? The best ever was a 1,015 squat, a 722 bench, and an 804 deadlift.

And you did weightlifting too. And I did weightlifting at a high level. Wes Barnett was my first coach. Both sports have impacted me not only as a person but as an athlete too. The way I think about things, even the way I did powerlifting was impacted by the way I did weightlifting. And so I just had a very unique view on both those sports. Most people are like, I know powerlifting. I don't know what the hell is going on in weightlifting.

Or vice versa. I experienced both and used them both to improve on both sides. I think that's why you've gotten so much achieved lately. You've built such a strong team because your multidisciplinary approach is really what is required now because so much information is available online coming from these different sports. A lot of people are trying to become on the fly multidisciplinary, but you've had this deep, rich experience of having spent a lot of time in each of these sports.

I guess you're seeing novel ways of drawing it all together just as more athletes are coming you're looking for ways to draw these things together to be fit to be strong to be explosive to weightlifting and powerlifting what have you well i think because you've done it you know you've done it you know how the puzzle pieces fit together together i know like you guys got to see a few of my juniors you know they're sitting over there dealing well they're yeah they're insanely strong they're like insane Nathan Damron I felt pretty old I'd say and those dudes

you know like Dylan Cooper he's a 18 year old 94 kilogram lifter and he's he looks tall

and skinny but the dude squats 550 you know I'm so like and you have a bunch of guys like 18 year old

clean jerking 400 pounds weighing what like 180 pounds, 170 pounds? We had two of those dudes today. Yeah. They were right in that 400 threshold. And, you know, one weighed 187 pounds and the other one weighed the 94-kilo 207, you know, both 18 and 19 years old.

And I think, you know, the way we look at strength has really helped it. In America, you know, gosh, the whole argument about, you know, technique versus strength. Technique or strength, right. I'm in america you know gosh the whole argument about you know technique technique or strength i'm about both you know but like you know like if their technique is good let's get strong right if technique sucks then let's focus on that but their technique is good so let's get strong and it's really helped them that's why they're both the two top you know juniors in the country so absolutely yeah i feel like your technique can cap much sooner than your strength your strength essentially never caps your technique can cap much sooner than your strength your strength essentially never caps your technique can get you're hitting this this

point at some point where every little change you make an alteration you make it's only going to add a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent but you could still being that good double your strength yeah but if i increase their you know squat 10 kilos i promise you their cleaning jerk just went out. It's going up. Right. Guaranteed. Absolutely. Yeah, because I've watched it happen with the two of them every single day.

When they get stronger, I know PR is about to happen. Sure enough, on Friday, they kill it. Hey, your clean is always going to be X percent of your front squat. So if your front squat goes from 300 to 500, you're going to clean more. Seriously. Doug, no doubt. I know. Exactly.

Like, you know, when you're efficient, like, you know, if your front squat was within 10% of your cleaning jerk, get strong. Right. Dude, get strong. Yeah. There's no way around that. Well, plus, I mean, you know, strength,

you can't have great technique without being strong because, I mean, technique really counts when it's heavy. Right. Like, that's when it counts. Like, it doesn't count when it's like 60 like everybody can do 60 and the technique you develop at light low doesn't really count for much when the weight starts getting on there people who are in gyms and are struggling when the weight gets heavy to drop underneath or to keep good form in the pool well you've always been working with paper weights how do you expect to keep composure

when the shit gets scientifically here here is break it break it down break it down when the shit gets killed. Scientifically, here is the best knowledge about it. Break it down, bro. Break it down. When the weight is 85% and above, the body perceives that differently as it does is 85% and below. Yeah. So if you stay at the 80% range, I got news for you. You know, when all of a sudden

you want to drop a heavy one, your body doesn't even know what you're doing because it hasn't been there. Yeah. It's like a whole new lift. So 85% and below, you count that as like technique reps?

I don't even count that as shit because that's like warming up, man. Is that like padded practice in football? You're an all-star running through with this half speed? We don't do any of that. Like, you know, Alex, he's done some of my programs, and he knows we don't do anything that's like below 85% because of that, because it does not transfer to the big lift. So if you're not in that 85% above range very often,

you're not really practicing what you're about to do. You're talking about the snatch and the clean and jerk specifically. You're not talking about doing bent over rows and fucking pull-ups. You're talking about just the core lifts. I'm talking about snatch, clean and jerk. Or variations of it. Or variations. Because they are so technical.

So, like, if you're always doing 70%, it's a whole different ball game than 85% above. So you need to practice what you're about to do when you perform like you did today on the stage. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. So I know lately you said you've been doing a Corey Gregory squat every day thing. How's that been working out for you? Well, if you're watching my videos's it been working out for you?

Well, if you're watching my videos, it's working out really well. And I was going to say, if we – You still snatching like 120, 125? No, I did 126 power snatch the other day. And before we get into that, let me just point out what happened here today. Let me say this before we go any further because we're hitting at what you're able to achieve. So today, Travis jumped on the platform. We trained together yesterday. You deadlifted yesterday.

You went up like 660 pounds. 660, yeah. I didn't trained together yesterday. You deadlifted yesterday. You went up like 660 pounds. 660, yeah. I didn't go near really. We deadlifted together. I was sticking way sub of that. But watching you going, wow, it looks fantastic. But then you decided out of the blue to lift today. Let me jump in this.

You jumped in on the deadlift platform. And I wanted to say, I was really, this is my little chance just to tell you, thank you for everything you've done over the years. Because I remember, I had flashbacks today, man, of like the WPO meets when you're at your peak in powerlifting back in 2003, 4, 5, 6 this time. That's exactly right. It's been about a decade. You, Mark Bartley was here. If anybody's here and heard of Spud Inc. Straps.

Shout out. Spud, Mark Bartley was here today. He was an amazing lifter. So I was seeing you guys showing up to this. Yeah, it was great. And I was feeling myself here and how we've kind of thrown in a measly bit of support to help pull it off. But just to be here to witness it, a big honor.

But I saw you step on the platform. All day today, you were running around, making sure things were coordinated. Yeah, Travis was running the whole damn thing. Yeah, because anybody who's ever thrown a competition, you've thrown a competition, you know what kind of fucking work. It's like being at work all day, mentally you're kind of drained. You're organizing, you who's ever thrown a competition. You've thrown a competition. You know what kind of fucking work. It's like being at work all day. Mentally, you're kind of drained. You're organizing. You're looking at the logistics.

People are hitting lifts or complaining or the judge is this, whatever. So there's lots of stuff going on. And you jump in. You jumped on the platform for the first time since 2008. Tell me how much you do deadlift today, man. Well, you know, I was sitting there and I was, I don't know, all of a sudden I was overcome with the emotions of powerlifting. I'm like, man, I'm going to do this, you know? Yeah this you know yeah I was gonna ask you like what was your kind of like well somebody walked by me and they're like hey you should live with us I don't know

if he was taunting me but I it was taught I taught I took it as a taunt I'm like yeah yeah you called his bluff it's like I'll live with you and I'll beat you you know so I'm like um you know they're like are you gonna warm up're like, are you going to warm up? I'm like, no, I don't need to warm up. I was warming up the day I was born. You know, I've been warming up, you know. And so I just didn't do anything. I opened up with 280 kilos.

I was at 617. It was the first thing I took. Straight cold. Straight cold. Straight cold. And AJ and I were like, shit, that was fast. It was an effortless pull. You know, my wife being here, too, like, she really, man, I'll tell you this.

If my wife had been with me when I was in the WPO, I would have beaten those records much more significantly. But when I look at her, like, it just fuels my fire. And so, like, yeah, 280 was easy. Then I went to 310, which was 683. Another easy pull. You know, really I was more worried

about that one because like, you know, if that's hard, 700 is going to be hard. Yeah. But it wasn't hard. And then I knew

700 was going to be in the, you know. Yeah. So I was just excited to get to try it. So then we put 700 on and well, here's the truth.

I started pulling it. I was like, shit, that's heavy face kind of showed that a little bit you're like then you start oh i got this i was pulling it i'm like man that's heavy yeah i'm like with a hooker too man i literally thought about putting down my now hell no no no you can't go out like a chump in front of everybody here on me. This is too perfect. I'm like, nah. So I pulled it, and it was awesome. My wife was sitting right there. It was, you know what? That might be my favorite lift of all time.

The deadlift. Yeah. And no, that specific. Oh, that particular lift was. Yeah, because it was just my wife was there. Yeah, you had your whole thing, man. My friends were here. But it was the last lift of the whole day, too.

It put a cap on the whole thing, man. My friends were here. But it was the last lift of the whole day, too. It put a cap on the whole meet. It was like the consummating in the perfect deal. You know what I mean? It was the perfect ending to the perfect situation. Yeah. And at 42 years old, right? Yeah. At 42 years old.

Yeah. So we talked about last night. We were on the Barbell Life podcast. You're feeling right now with your wife and this farm here and the team of lifters you got, would you say at 42, we'll get in a minute to the performance angles

of this, but you feel like you're the most happiest and fulfilled you've been ever in your life? Ever in my entire life. I love my team. Everyone knows by now

I love my wife more than anything. I love my rock, my son, my daughter. Your son's so cute, dude. Yep. And so,

everything right now is as it should be. You guys, my son, my daughter. Your son's so cute, dude. Yep. And so everything right now is as it should be. You guys have really taught me a lot about how I can do things differently. I can reach more people. I can impact more people online. And so the last year and a half, my life is flip-flop. And so now I can spend more time with my wife, my daughter, on our farm. And life is flip-flop and so now I can spend more time with my wife my daughter on our farm and you know life is really good and so like I'm really you go into the barbell mastermind too you know talking over all the things I was doing and thinking about you know what do I really want to do yeah and so you know that has changed too so when I left the barbell mastermind I started

you know x-ing out things I didn't really want to do and so now really I mean I'm doing exactly what it is I want to do so right up front there's huge lessons of performance saying of all the things you could do life and happiness and performance of all things you could do and achieve saying no to everything you know really doesn't matter things you could do but not wanting to ruling that out so you can serve the effort in the time you have no doubt. I hope everyone hears that. There are plenty of opportunities out there. We all have opportunities. But if it's something that you don't

love with all your heart, you don't have this massive passion to do whatever it takes to make that happen, then don't do it. Why do it? Just because you can succeed, who cares? What is success? Have you ever asked yourself, what does that really mean? Success to me is like helping as many people before i die and leaving and my family saying that dude spent time with me that dude taught me that dude you know was a good husband that

dude worked hard for me that's what i want and that's all that matters right to me that's success you know maybe you're different and so what what is success? You better ask yourself that. Yeah. So I always viewed success as fulfillment specifically, which isn't necessarily happiness. Happiness is more of a, like an individual temporary state. Like you can give me a steak and I can be happy for a second, but it's not necessarily going to fulfill me longterm

outside of like that very small window where I'm eating that steak. Happiness is different. Happiness, you just wake up, or sorry, fulfillment is different. Fulfillment, you wake up and you just have this baseline happiness at all times.

So what you're talking about, saying no to all the things that don't really kind of feel your fire and only doing the things that really drive you and motivate you on a day-to-day basis is one of the things that really can help you

lead to long-term fulfillment. And it sounds like that fulfillment just energizes you. And you like, I mean, what you did today, that gives you that energy. Today, you're exactly right. So normally when I work out,

there's a little thing I go through. I might drink some coffee, take pre-workout, maybe take some ibuprofen once in a while. Because you are 42. A little ibuprofen's not bad. I did not need need one thing i was sitting in that chair right there in the corner and i'm like i'm going to kill this let's do this yeah that's a really awesome point because when you're happy and fulfilled and you're having fun and you feel supported by great wife great team great family there's little need for stimulants and heavy metal before you lift that spirit of fun gives you all the performance that you could ever hope for i didn't need a thing

today i just was like the people were so awesome everybody here was so awesome there wasn't that one person that was kind of the nag or yeah you know the pull you down type of person everybody was loving it was a positive uplifting environment it It was. And everybody kept coming up and saying, thank you. Everybody kept coming and saying, I think you've just created the future of events. And I'm like, cool. That's what I wanted. It's so cool to hear affirmation. And just walking around and seeing it start to develop.

So we got up at 6 a.m. and it's early. Butterflies, man. Pre-game, just like college football you know you're just like oh shit you know bubble guts yes and you're walking around it's still kind of dark sun starts to come up a couple people start to creep in you're like okay it's time it started all of a sudden everyone's here you're like this works yeah yeah you know this thing that my wife and I developed over the kitchen table, it worked. And you didn't worry about, it wasn't, I say this very kindly, you didn't worry about making this a perfect event. No.

Starting was most important. Right. Now you had a blast, and now I guess you've seen a rich opportunity to improve and do this again next year. Oh, yeah. We'll be happy, be honored, really, to come back and do it again next year with you. Yeah, there's definitely, like, two or three things that, you know, we know we want to do better already.

You know, some of the things, though, were on point. But, you know, there's little things you just don't think of, man. We run, you know, four events at once. But like the warm-up platform. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, man, that's the test. If you can warm up back there, you're going to hit the lift when you go out there. We need to make that better.

But all in all, I would have liked to have made the PowerZ platform a little bit better. But, man, everyone hit PR. Everybody was nice and strong, man. That's the interesting thing. When you have something like the warm-up platforms at an event like this, which basically you had a piece of wood on some soft grass, and they dropped they dropped the weight and the weights were digging a hole in the ground it was it was a very shoddy setup

overall but the thing is if you run a very high quality event and everyone had a good time afterward they're kind of like man that was like kind of crazy it's kind of funny though it's like it's cool though it's cool it's kind of cool vibe and no one gets mad about it if you ran a shitty event they'd be like what the fuck was that guy thinking that was awful and he gets smeared so if you get no backlash to something like that you know you ran a good event well you know like um even my my lifters you know they were like man this is crazy you made me do a deficit but then they tore it up yeah they did and they just said you know it's just so fun yeah it was all about have nobody it was all about

nobody complained about it. Yeah. Nobody. Because everyone's having such a good time, they were just like, that's kind of funny. No big deal. And they just didn't care.

And your performance was just fine. It wasn't out. Yeah, yeah. You stepped up and lifted. Yeah. Okay, we're going to take a short break, but in part two, we'll be talking about

how to grow old gracefully and stay strong in your later years. This is Tim Ferriss, and you are listening to Barbell Shrugged. For the video version, go to barbellshrugged.com. Barbell Shrugged. For the video version, go to barbellshrugged.com Barbell Shrugged is brought to you by you. To learn more

about how you can support the show, go to barbellshrugged.com and sign up for the newsletter. Welcome back everybody to part two of the Travis Mash special. Travis, man, I like that. We were talking the strength spectacular. Travis' awesome deadlift performance today. In spite of the fact he was running an event, Travis, one of the things you hit on, we were talking the strength spectacular. Travis is awesome. Deadlift performance today.

In spite of the fact he was running an event, Travis, one of the things you hit on, we're going to talk about how people can, what they can apply to their training. Big principles that will allow you to kind of guide your training and make sure you don't get in the trouble as you get in order to make sure you get strong. Right.

The first thing I had in mind was the challenge you put before yourself to keep learning and keep trying new things. Tell us a little bit about what you've been doing the last last year so you're training and why do you think it's allowed you to get so strong well i heard cory gregory excuse me on your show and he sounded like the coolest dude ever let me tell you why is that he was a coal miner and a lot of i don't know if you guys even know that my grandfather was a coal miner in west virginia well and so um i was like that dude sounds very cool and so somehow we met and he got on my oh yeah he tweeted at me he's like i had written some article he's like oh i like love your article i'm yeah well dude i love you i like to be on my show we love each other

so we started this awesome bromance you know know, and he was on my podcast and then we started talking about his squat every day and I'm like, you know, I'll be honest. I'm going to be honest right now and he knows what I'm going to say.

It's a very popular program. Yeah, it's popular, but I've always thought it was bullshit. You know, I like squat every day. When you first hear about it,

you're like, what? Especially if you're older because your primary consideration is can I recover from the shit I'm doing. That should be your primary consideration. And I'm thinking, everything I've learned in exercise says no.

No, right. Recovery, you know, and all that. And I'm like, don't. You're allowed one day a week to squat kind of heavy. And if you do more than that, your dick's going to explode. Exactly. You're going to fucking die. Right.

So I was like, you know, but I like this guy, so I'm going to try this program just to get to know him too. So I started it totally negative, as you can tell. I'm like, this is no way this is going to work. You didn't believe. No, I did not believe. So there was no way there was any placebo going on because I was like, this doesn't work. So the first day I go really light because I'm trying to like,

you know, make sure I don't get killed. Good strategy. And then by the end of the first week, I'm like, man, squats feel great. Next week, squats feel unbelievable. Third week, I'm starting to beat PRs. Then fourth week, I start cleaning jerking more than I've ever in the last 10 years. So I hit the 170, and I'm like, what? I'm like, you know, it was easy, and I'm like, this is great.

So then I'm like, all right, Corey, I'm on board. What is this voodoo that you're doing to me, you know? And so then I just, you know, keep going, and, like, it really, I'm about week seven, I think, now, and, like, every single week, I PR in everything, squats, clean and jerk snatches, you know, see overhead squats again. I started doing overhead squat because, you know, I broke my neck in 2007.

I didn't know that day, man. Yeah. So my wife, she was my future wife then, we went whitewater rafting and she fell out, was going to fall out and I grabbed her and something in my you know cervical spine snapped and it really messed me up well yeah and so that that is you know when you see me turning everyone's always like why do you turn i hear that a million times

a day but it's because you know my radial nerve on my left side is damaged oh man and so this now i do overhead squat most every day hashtag yeah. And so that's helped me too. So now I'm like, dude, it just makes sense. It's like basketball. If you want to get better at something, do it every day. So you're attributing the main positive benefits of that program to the simple act of practice? Adaptation.

Yeah, you just do it all the time, and your CNS figures it out, and you just become more efficient at it. Your body adapts quickly. You know, like I remember working for my stepdad in the lumber company. You know, he owns a lumber company in Virginia, and I'm like, man, it sucks. You know, the first week was like hell, and all these old fat guys were like laughing at me, and they were working 10 times harder. Dragging logs around and shit. And I'm like, how are they beating me?

It was just adaptation that, you know, they had adapted, and their CNSs how are they beating me? It was just adaptation. They'd adapted, and their CNSs had gotten more efficient at the movement. By the end of the summer, I'm smoking those old dudes, but it's the same exact thing. It's just I don't know why. We go to college. We're all exercise science majors, I think, here, but we all learn this stuff. Well, Alex is a little smarter than us.

He's like a Bob McElengineer. Well, screw you, Alex. Yeah, I know. like all right so we'll just start the three of us he's a little bit of a meathead we're mostly real meatheads yeah Travis Doug's also very smart yeah Doug is really smart but like you know you go there and you learn these things and like you just take that as the gospel and you just don't think you know with common sense and so this program now like i'm done like 100% listening to anybody i'm gonna like when i think of something i'm gonna think about it logically challenge it yeah yeah yeah put it to the test right so it sounds like right off the bat there's an element of taking on a challenge you don't if you're older you can take

on a challenge just because you don't think you can do it that's that's first thing you might be lying to yourself. Huge. And the second part of that, it seems to be practice is a huge consideration. The thought that triggers in me is that a lot of people who see strong athletes, they see the popular program. Let's say they want to go into the gym and start doing five-by-five heavy squats or something before they do CrossFit stuff. And the thing is, everything is great at certain times,

but the real challenge at least i found in my training especially as i get older is i can't come into the gym and do five sets of max effort five reps in a squat that kills me acutely i'll get beat down and maybe i can recover for a couple of weeks or whatever but pretty soon i'm slower i'm regressing my back is rounding on three quarters of those reps uh i'm cutting my depth. It's not optimal for everybody to train that way. And there's not one style that would apply to everybody. Just because you haven't done that, it might not necessarily be right for you.

Versus what you're doing with that squat every day program, which is just practicing that movement a little bit heavier each time. One rep, maybe a few downsets. But there's a lot of variations, too. There's so many variations. And just keeping it exciting, too. You know, you hit the nail on the head. variations there's so many variations and like uh just keeping it exciting too right you know like you know you get the nail on the head like a new challenge like whether it's grid whether it's

you know powerlifting whether it's like doing all of it together like at my age if i do like if i were to just powerlift now it might go well for a few months but i would be done with it because i'm bored i mean no offense to my powerlifting brethren out there, but I've done it. You know, I mean, I'm done. I need something new. So your adaptive capacity to get better at the deadlift squat bench is sort of limited now?

Yeah, because mainly my mentality. Like, you know, if I was still super excited about it, but it's just I've already done that. You know, I mean, what am I going to do, break another world record? Fine. Then what? You know, like I've already done it and so like

I wanna do something new and so that's why I love doing them all together you know cause everyone says you can't and so I say

I say you can and so it's just exciting to me it's like everyday is something different you know I might come in and do a great squat

but then I might go against you know some of my younger dudes and you know like you know snatch and clean and jerk or do a bro session you know I might do a bro yeah you know I might do an some of my younger dudes and snatch a cleaning jerk. Or do a bro session. I might do a bro session.

Yeah. I might do an easy chukku and do a bro session. Get a pump on. Oh, they're flexing right now. Well, it's all about having fun. I mean, if you're not having fun, why are you doing it? You're dang right. At my age, if I'm not having fun, then why do it?

Why would I want to waste one more day of my life? There's something I want to do. Yeah. Exactly. That's exactly right. And also, I guess you're squatting heavy all the time now. Yeah. But another thing we can point out to people is that if you want to get stronger, you do have to push for PRs.

You have to try to break those PRs, have a really serious attitude. But it doesn't mean you can only do that by piling more and more weight on the bar. Tell us some of the ways you've made lifting harder for yourself and more effective for yourself without always just thinking of load only. Like a lot of my lifters know, like I vary a lot. Even when Alex in the past, some of the stuff he's done with me, like maybe five-second pauses, three-second pauses, second pauses or like you know like you know then you can bands yeah with bands right chains you know there's so many ways to vary it without

saying you know going if i know every single week i gotta like squat six something and above that will beat me down mentally quickly yeah so i save that like once every four weeks. So like next week, I'm definitely not, you know, like you guys saw me do like 617 high bar. Yeah, you squatted heavy

and stayed tuned to it, man. You squatted, yeah. And so I won't do that next week. I'll do something like, you know,

a pause. Like, maybe on Wednesday, I will pause for five seconds. Friday, I'll pause for one second. But I won't just do a maximum one rep, you know.

But what next week I'll probably do is really hit snatch clean and jerk. So that kind of varies too. So with the different variables I have, I have so many. Every week I can really target something, you know, and not kill any one thing. Absolutely. Yeah, I think that variation is extremely strong, especially for like,

you know, if you're at a plateau and, you know, like making those lifts harder, you know, if you're doing with bands and chains, you know, that lift is going to get harder, so you have no choice but to get stronger, you know?

Yeah, especially like, you know, I do a lot of front squats too. And front squats are money for me because of my spine. And front squats, they feel really fucking hard. Instead of back squats. But they're less. But you could do front squats all the time without getting beat down.

So if back squats and deadlifts hurt your back, make you take a long time for you to recover from, you should probably leverage lifts like the front squat more often because you can do them all the time without really suffering the same sort of, you don't have to recover so long for them. No doubt. You know, and in the last three months months i've deadlifted now three times two being this weekend only one time besides you guys being here that's insane so you ain't gonna pull too often

to be strong no dude you know like you know especially me like i mean i was born a puller so like if my squat goes up my pull will go up now not everyone is like that so you do need to know who you are but i know me like when my squat goes up i know my deadlift is going up it's just the way i'm built you know i have a long like that i have long arms you know i have short short femurs and a long torso i'm going to deadlift a lot you know yeah so i know when a squat goes up it's good so i don't. You've got some key indicators you watch for. If those are moving, you know you're heading in the right direction. You ain't got to prove it to yourself that you're strong in everything all the time.

No, dude. You know, deadlift, the moment I deadlifted, when I was 12 years old, you know, the first time I pulled, I could go over 400. It's just, I was. I want to see 12-year-old Travis, man. You know, Easy and my wife have seen a picture of me at 14. I was, you know, I had my little cheesy mustache. Dirt stache.

Super jacked, but, you know, it just, you know, my parents gave me really good genetics, but the moment I picked up a deadlift, I could just out-deadlift everyone, you know? So I don't need to do it. And it does kill me, though. You know, if I deadlift all the time like now I'm hurt you know yesterday and today

my back is feeling it you know but so I won't deadlift again for about a month so you do train with things you are less good at to get stronger so squat is not necessarily your wheelhouse all time

so lifts that you know require more work you can put your effort there yeah you know like you know squatting is not as natural to me as like deadlifting even though

I broke the all time world record squat I guess you know in the W is not as natural to me as, like, deadlifting. Even though I broke the all-time world record squat, I guess, you know, in the WPO, that seemed to be the focus. And so I probably focused more on the squat, I mean. But, like, if I had focused more on the deadlift, it was just easier for me. Because even then, I didn't deadlift that much. Would you say, like, most of your training is mostly variation? It's completely. You know what? If someone said sum up your training,

I would say conjugate in nature. It is the one principle that I took from Lily Simmons that I apply is conjugate in nature. It changes all the time. It varies. It keeps me excited. It doesn't keep my body beaten down. Right.

You're balancing out everything. Yeah. One thing me and AJ were talking about the other day was that the reason that we like conjugate is because it is variety, a lot of variety, but it's structured variety. It's structured. It's a template that you can hang all this variety on. So you're not doing something that's, quote, unquote, truly random in every case. Yeah. You're doing something that's been proven to be effective conceptually, but then you have a lot of variety within that.

You can switch exercises in and out you can have a lot of variety with the exercises but the way that those exercises are structured are with within that template right no no doubt even my conjugate is very well thought out you know it's thought out you know months in advance you know like you know sometimes i know maybe in my videos it looks random but it's definitely not you know i took you know cory's you know main workout and made it my own of course you know and switched it to where it would fit me and you know i'm very nerdy like here's the truth maybe you guys don't know that i'm a very very nerd no i'm a very nerd you're not afraid to get a little nerdy no i'm geeky i'm very geeky yeah a lot of

people just look at me as the big me. I'm very geeky. And so I will schedule out months in advance for my own training. I'll take it. I'll tweak it. And I'll be like, five-second pause. We'll do that for three weeks, three seconds. Now we're going to go one second.

But then we'll go back to three. Then we'll go to one. Then we'll go to zero. There mean, like, you know, there's going to be a structure to it. Like a random, I hate, and I love CrossFit, but the randomness, like, I'm like, does it fit me? You know? That eventually drives everyone crazy after a couple of years. It's cool in the beginning and then you go, that was, that was cool. That was effective. There's something to that for sure. But if you're trying to be more serious, then you move more towards some type of structured variety.

Structured. And, you know, everything at the end of the day will be linear. You know, there will be a linear periodization. Like when I squat, you know, I squatted 280 kilos yesterday. You know, in, you know, two months from now, you know, I definitely definitely will be at 300 kilos and there'll be a, there'll be a path I'm taking to get there. Like I know I'm about to do it. You know, I've already done it. But each variation has its own path.

Every variation has its own path. So you're not doing anything magical in that. You're just projecting out where would I like to be in two, three months time. And then I guess you're taking a hard stance of where am I now? Honestly, what do I lack? What do I need to work on? Where am I kicking ass at that doesn't need so much work? And then stepwise, how can I get there?

Within that stepwise fashion, what kind of play do I have so I don't go crazy? Like I know my own – like right now I know my weaknesses. You know, it's still in my core. Like, you know, I need to do more good mornings. Like I know this. When I walk out with a weight and it feels light on my back because I've done a lot of good mornings

and a lot of like heavy carries and a lot of core work when it feels light on my back then I'm unbeatable and then I can squat whatever I want to squat

you know so I'm working towards that and that will be where I'm going you know like so my goal I'll just say right now is to get to 300 kilos

660 high bar no knee wraps dang then I'll drop it to low bar then I'll get to 700 high bar, no knee wraps. Dang. Then I'll drop it to low bar, then I'll get to 700, then I'll put knee wraps on and I'll go 750. And then maybe if I want to, I'll start chasing down the dudes,

you know, Dan Green, the dudes doing 800. Yeah. You mentioned 35 being kind of the cutoff in your mind for when you could potentially start to take a dive or when people think you're starting to take a dive. Um, as you said, you don't necessarily have to take a dive at that age, but I mean, you had a fun conversation earlier about, um, maybe potentially resetting your PRS every year. Once you're not competitive anymore, once you're not competitive anymore, you don't need to be chasing your PR from 10 years ago and feeling bad about yourself every single day because you didn't hit it every Every single year, you should wipe the slate clean and say,

those are my 2015 PRs. Now, 2016, these are going to be my new PRs. Just kind of start all over and hit a new PR every year, and that's your new standard. Right. So, like, you know, right now, when I hit 280 yesterday, I was very happy with that. I wasn't like, dang it, why am I not hitting 300?

Why am I not squatting 800 now? You know, no, I'm very happy with that. It doesn't mean in the horizon I'm not seeing that I could if I want to be back there. But I just want to be attacking, going, working towards it. Yeah, I'm totally cool with 280 right now. You got to be having fun

and appreciating what you're able to achieve now. Yeah. If you keep chasing shit, you'll never be fucking happy with anything again. If you hit a weight that you haven't hit in 10 years, that's a PR. Yeah. It doesn't matter

what you did 15 years ago. Or if you hit a lighter load with better form, with more speed, with more reps. That's good, too. There's all kinds of ways you can also measure your progress

to know you're getting better. Yeah. If you have a bad day and the heavy lifting didn't go good, well, if you can move a load crisper, faster, more confidence,

you know, more time, you're getting fucking better. I tell people this all the time in our weightlifting programs. People are so focused on trying to chase PRs, but there's other factors like consistency and getting faster and moving with better technique. That's progress. That's all progress. Do yourself a favor and be fair in all the ways you could get better. Look at the big picture. Big picture. Right, right, right. There's a few other be fair in all the ways you could get better. Look at the big picture.

There's a few other things I want to talk about, Travis. We talked about taking on novel challenges. You've got to think outside the box. What else can I get better at? There's a way you can load yourself. You want to load the bar as heavy as you can, but you also want to find different ways to make the lifts challenging for you. Time, pauses, all kinds of ways

to do that. Yeah. And we hit a bunch of other things. But I want to get two more big ideas that people really need to be concerned with. One of them is in how good a shape you are. What kind of things are you doing right now to ensure that you have the fitness available to support all this training? Well, there's a few. Obviously, as you know, I like to do EMOMs. I do that for myself and for my athletes.

So every minute on the minute lifting. Every minute on the minute for you guys who don to do EMOMs. I do that for myself and for my athletes. So every minute on the minute lifting? Every minute on the minute for you guys who don't know EMOMs. And you consider that conditioning specifically? Most CrossFitters probably wouldn't if they're talking to a strength athlete. A weightlifter would for sure, man. I'm saying right now. A weightlifter or a powerlifter would. Yeah, absolutely.

Damn CrossFitters. You know what I mean? But yeah, we do that for several reasons. Yeah, there. Damn crossfitters. You know what I mean? But, you know, yeah, we do that, you know, for several reasons. Yeah, there's conditioning aspect. But it's also so you guys don't think too much. Weightlifters are the worst to, you know, think themselves out of a lift. I mean, they're so mental. And I understand it as a weightlifter, too.

I'll do the same thing myself. But when you just get into every minute on the minute, some statues, cleaning jerks, you don't have time to, like, think about, oh, I might miss.. But when you just get into every minute on the minute, some statutes, cleaning jerks, you don't have time to think about, oh, I might miss. You just do it. Yeah, and it builds a lot of practice and repetition in a very short amount of time. You get a lot of first crisp repetitions

instead of doing a set of five or something with a letter. Once you get a little rough. Right, so that was a leading question, obviously. It can be conditioning or it can be considered strength. However you want to look at it, I basically was asking you how you do it specifically. Can you explain how you use it? Yeah.

So, like, as he knows, it'll start out. It won't be so bad. And for the first week, it'll be mainly, you know, like, I guess it would be more strength work. Or more, I wouldn't say strength work. I would say, you know, CNS. CNS tweaking work. It'd be like shooting foul shots.

Boom. Boom. Right? You know? One after another. The next week, you know and then after another the next week you know it's going to go up the third week that third week will be conditioning it'll be like you know there'll be a lot of imams you know when you're doing and i'm asking them to work out so they might start at 70 but then they're going up every set up to a max yeah yeah really up to a max but you know i'm asking them you know don't miss So between 90% and 100%, they're doing their last several sets.

So when you're doing 12 to 15 EMOMs, that's heavy. Yeah. So that is conditioning. You're doing a lot of work quick. A lot of work quick. And you do a lot of other stuff, too, like sled pulls. I do a lot of sled pulls right out there. How do you usually approach a sled dragon, man? i do um you know between 30 to 50 yards i do uh you know the

normal drag behind you know drag you know in front i do drag in front row i do the drag you know from behind press you know i do the sidewalk you know the sidestepping like a karaoke yeah and the cool thing about sled pulling is like it's conditioning but there's no eccentric You know, I do the sidewalk, you know, the sidestepping, like a karaoke. Yeah. And the cool thing about sled pulling is, like, it's conditioning, but there's no eccentric motion. Yeah, it doesn't beat you up. It does not beat you up. Yeah, yeah. It'll recover you. So if you've got super, you know, sore legs, say you've done a 10-rep max squat, for whatever reason you might do that.

But, you know, unless I programmed it, I do a lot of that. So, but, you know, it's really good at, you know,'s really good at helping flush that lactic acid out. Yeah, caries and things like that. I love the heavy carries. I love for several reasons. Yeah, it's conditioning, but especially asymmetrical. So you've got those hips that should move not only up and down, but it should move front and back, separate of each other.

Right. So a lot of us, all we do is squat. Yep. Up and down, but it should move front and back, separate of each other. Right. And so a lot of us, all we do is squat. Yep. And so those hips will get- Excess bilateral loading. Well, you build in balances. You build in balances. And whenever you do that, you open yourself up to injury for sure.

That makes recovery a lot harder too if you're not making sure you have a balance in your hips and legs and stuff. In several ways. Once again, you have the up and down and the front and back, you know? The hips should move. You know, gosh, they're made to go like this. They're made to go like this. And they're not made to always be squat. Just that they function with a squat or a pull.

Yeah, yeah. Did that make sense? Yeah, so, okay. So, like, for you people just listening, they're not meant to be just bilateral moving up and down. They're meant to be separate of one another, front and back, separate of one another, front and back, separate of one another, up and down.

So if you're not doing a lot of asymmetrical movements, they won't do that. I mean, that's a big thing I've learned from you is while doing your programming is especially like the imbalances and working unilateral work, like single leg work, single arm work. You've added a lot of that. And then being older,, that's even more important because that's what's going to – if you're not a well-balanced athlete as you get older,

you're going to get so hurt later on. And if you've been pushing squats for a long time, this is a way for you to squat and get a lot more progress made in a new way. You know, Alex just brought up a great point. In weightlifting, a lot of coaches, if it does not directly affect the snatch and clean and jerk, they're like, why are you doing this? Why are you doing that? Well, it's because you're a dumbass.

You don't do exercise science. That's the problem right there. If you're just a weightlifting coach, dude, you don't know anything about science. It's not about just snatch and clean and jerk. It's about how can I get Alex snatching and clean and jerking for as long as possible, injury-free. Because at the end of that road, Alex wins and your athlete loses because he can't make it there. Yeah, I was talking to a guy about this today. It's like weightlifting is about who can stay in the longest and train the healthiest the longest.

Weightlifting, powerlifting, both. It's like who and train the healthiest the longest. Weightlifting, powerlifting, both. It's like who can stay the healthiest the longest. And to do that, you have to take care of the imbalances and be strong all around. No doubt. So, you know, everyone's always like, oh, you shouldn't deadlift. Deadlift doesn't help weightlifting. Well, that's dumb because I just watched Travis Cooper. I know if I could deadlift 600 pounds, I'd probably be cleaning way more than I did.

I watched Travis Cooper barely squat at all and just deadlift and go to the world championships and do the best of any of the Americans from just deadlifting. You guys met Zach Ringwald. I'll have to give him credit where credit is due. He really brought this to light. Even though I might have thought this before, I just never really put it to practice

until I started talking to him about imbalances, pushing and pulling, squatting and delafing. Being in shape. If you're out of shape, that's an imbalance. Training longer. Now I row more. You're talking training longer. So now I row more. You're talking about conditioning. I do a lot of rowing because rowing doesn't affect.

Just like Concept 2 style rowing? Yeah, I have one right in my little garage right there. I do a lot of every, I do 250 meters every two minutes on the two minutes. How many meters total? So I go about 1,500, but I go all out. So I'm going 250 meters as fast as I can. And so sometimes more. And then sometimes I'll do just a long,

drawn-out 20 to 30 minutes. I learned that from your boy, Brian McKenzie. Oh, yeah, man. Meeting him at the Barbell Mastermind, that was on fleek. On fleek. That was on fleek. On fleek. That was on fleek. Old guys using these terms.

This is a huge idea is that you can beat yourself up all you want in the gym, and something like sled dragging and rowing doesn't seem like it makes you stronger. What this does is it helps you regenerate and restore yourself so you get back into the gym and get back to practicing. Because right now I know this is I've gotten way stronger, my squats. And so I squat first. So now if I'm squatting like 600, it really takes it out of me. right now I know this is I've gotten way stronger my squats and so I squat first so now if I'm squatting like 600 it really

takes it out of me so now it's just a big it's a big we're hitting at the biggest point here that we need to close on is that's recovery so the point I want to make is that the program you will do the strength work the lot of stuff we've been talking about is only one small

tiny component of all the things you need to do, especially as you're getting older, to be strong and to stay strong. There's other key components in there that are going to help you, in this case, recover, to be able to keep this work up. Travis, what are you doing in your training now to help support optimal

recovery outside of the gym? Well, other than doing some of the cardio stuff that I learned from Brian McKenzie. But, you know, Dr. Gray has always been, like, my number one dude. He's the chiropractor that's local. He works on all the, you know, Wake Forest is a big college here. Local university.

Local university. But when these dudes go off and go to the NFL, like, they always come back to him. He is the man. And so, when I would do, like, the world, you know, WPO, he would always fly back to him. He is the man. And so when I would do like the world, you know, WPO, he would always fly there with me. Like he would keep me in between, you know, every squat, every bench. He would, you know, tweak me, keep me manipulated and like able to keep functioning at a high level.

But, you know, that was a big secret. That, nutrition, you know, we talk a lot. I've told you dudes a lot about like how really I believe that I won most of my competitions is simply because I did those little things. You know, like, I definitely believe now that I'm older and I'm not so arrogant, I can say now that, you know, yeah, Chuck Vogelpool, at the end of the day, you know, if everything was equal, would he be stronger? Probably.

But I'm smarter, you know? stronger? Probably, but I'm smarter. I would eat better. Chuck was a monstrous powerlifter. He was a monstrous powerlifter. One of the most successful 242 powellers in recent memory. His neck looked like a lion. But I would eat better. I would take Dr. Gray with me.

I would sleep better. It was those little things, man. I just looked as I was coming up, and I would look at, okay, how can I beat those dudes? You know, how many variables? How many variables are there? Little variables. Little mundane variables. And I would like start eating at them.

I would sleep better. I would eat better. You know, I would, you know, get Dr. Gray. I would do more mobility work. I would do more recovery work with the sleds. And those little things over time added up. Yeah, it adds up. Alex, you're getting close to your 30s.

Now, how big of a role has mobility been playing lately in your training, your progression? I mean, definitely huge. I mean, it's always been a big factor. So, you know, addressing it now, I've just recently started addressing it because I realize, like, I have to. If I'm going to stay in this game, you know, addressing it now, I've just recently started addressing it because I realized, like, I have to. If I'm going to stay in this game, you know, long term, I'm going to have to take care of these issues. You get into your 30s, what you realize is there's the weight you lift, and that makes you strong.

And then there's these little things. The detail, the mobility work that you will do every day. But when it comes to being strong, this is equally as important, if not way more important to strength than anything else you could do. Or just staying in the game. Staying in the game, period. You know, we're all going to go to the gym. Everyone's going to go work out. We're going to work out hard.

But not everyone is going to go to bed like this shit. Right, right. Not everyone's going to eat, right? But you're going to be better if you do all those things because that adds up. It may be like 1%, but that 1% is what's going to put more weight on the bar. If you're listening to this show right now and you're not listening, that's your own fault. So when you get to be 50 or 60, you're like, damn, I should have listened. I'm telling you right now, eat better, sleep better. All right, when I say eat better, sleep better, it's not in this broad sense.

I'm like literally learn how to eat. Pay attention to what you're eating. Literally learn how to sleep. Like, make it a science. Yeah, optimize. Optimize it. Yeah. If you're a person right now that's listening to that and you're like, what do you mean learn how to sleep?

You're the person we're talking to. You don't even know that you can learn how to sleep. You are way behind. You have a sleep ritual before you go to bed, so you develop these habits. My wife and I both, there's a certain time of the night that not only Brock is my son. Precious little kid, man.

There's a time of the night where he goes to bed, we go to bed, There's things we do. You know, I read. You know, I read the Bible. She spends her time with Brock, putting him to sleep. Then she puts him in his crib. Then Mom and Dad do their thing. That's super important.

Sugar, sugar, bow, bow. Sugar, sugar, bow, bow, which is, you know, telling you. I mean, that's important. That's important. I'll tell you. Why do you think I pulled 700 tonight? I'm trying to get right tonight.

I looked over at your wife and said, after he pulled that lift, your husband's looking strong. You got a job to do. I was like, man, I'm trying to get lucky tonight. What do I need to do? You got to pull 700. I'm pulling 700 pounds.

I'm definitely getting ready tonight. I pulled pulling 700 pounds. In front of everybody. I'm definitely getting worried tonight. Yeah, and then I pulled it, and at the top, man, I told her I loved her in front of everyone. Bro, if I don't get lucky tonight, shit. Something's wrong, right? Absolutely. Travis, this has been an amazing podcast.

Before we go, for the people out there who want to get strong, who want to make this commitment, what would you leave them with? One message they'll take into the gym to make themselves better and stronger. Don't let anyone tell you that it's too late, that you can't. Whether you're 23, whether you're 35, whatever your goal is, don't stop pursuing it and don't stop learning about that goal. And like I said to you guys just hanging out,

the moment I stop pursuing a massive goal is the moment you dudes are watching me get into the casket and you're like pouring out your 40s because I'm dead. Because that's the truth. It's like don't stop. Don't let anybody tell you you can't.

The moment you stop learning and trying to achieve and better yourself, that's the moment you might as well call yourself dead. Later. Keep it going. Travis, man, where can people find more about you? Go to mashelete.com.

Sign up for the newsletter. Listen to The Barbell Life. You'll get to hear these dudes. Almost everybody's been on the show. Yeah, man, we were just on. We had a blast on that show. You're making me work for it. I'll be on the show.

We were all on the other day, though. A whole group of us. And CTP. And CTP, you know? And CTP only drops massive knowledge boxes. Oh, yeah. When CTP talks, everyone's quiet. When CTP talks, you better listen because he's got choice words for you. My wife, that's her favorite.

No offense to anyone. None taken, man. Look at this guy's handsomeness. I mean, CTP's Instagram is my wife's favorite. He's got the touch. Ladies and gentlemen, that's all for this episode of Barbell Shrug. Do us a favor. Head on over to barbellshrug.com.

Sign up for the newsletter. We'll only send you choice, awesome, excellent information. Also, if you think we deserve it, which of course we do, go on over to iTunes, wherever you check out the podcast. Leave us a nice comment, maybe a five-star review. We really would appreciate that. Until next time, fellas, we'll see you. Thanks again, Travis. Cheers, everybody. Love you the podcast. Leave us a nice comment, maybe a five-star review. We really would appreciate that. Until next time, fellas, we'll see you. Thanks again, Travis.

Cheers, everybody. Love you guys. Chaka brah.