Barbell Shrugged - Phoenix Suns Strength Coach Cory Schlesinger w/ Anders Varner, Doug Larson, and Coach Travis Mash Barbell Shrugged #612

Episode Date: October 20, 2021

Schlesinger is finishing his second season in the NBA working as the Director of Performance /Head Strength and Conditioning Coach for the Phoenix Suns.   Prior to the league, he was the Director of Basketball Performance at Stanford University. In his time on The Farm, he has revolutionized in-season strength training for collegiate student-athletes, with a method that is now internationally recognized. He has been a chosen presenter on both the national and international stage, sharing his philosophy in strength training to other experts and colleagues in the field. He is continuously sharing his knowledge and experience on multiple platforms, including podcasts, satellite radio, and several public speaking engagements.   Prior to joining the staff at Stanford, Schlesinger spent three years as the Director of Basketball Performance at UAB, two years as the Director of Strength and Conditioning at Santa Clara University, and two years as an Assistant at Campbell University.   Uniquely, Schlesinger also played basketball at the collegiate level, which brings his experience to over 14 years in higher-level basketball as a player and a coach.   In this Episode of Barbell Shrugged:   Individualized programming in a team sport How to coach athletes with different roles on the team Skill and finesse or big muscle and training for body type How to prioritize training on game days  Is there a secret recipe for recovery   Connect with our guests:   Cory Schlesinger on Instagram   Anders Varner on Instagram   Doug Larson on Instagram   Coach Travis Mash on Instagram   ————————————————   Diesel Dad Mentorship Application: https://bit.ly/DDMentorshipApp   Diesel Dad Training Programs: http://barbellshrugged.com/dieseldad   Training Programs to Build Muscle: https://bit.ly/34zcGVw   Nutrition Programs to Lose Fat and Build Muscle: https://bit.ly/3eiW8FF   Nutrition and Training Bundles to Save 67%: https://bit.ly/2yaxQxa   Please Support Our Sponsors   Organifi - Save 20% using code: “Shrugged” at organifi.com/shrugged   BiOptimizers Probitotics - Save 10% at bioptimizers.com/shrugged   Garage Gym Equipment and Accessories: https://prxperformance.com/discount/BBS5OFF Save 5% using the coupon code “BBS5OFF”

Shrug family, this week on Barbell Shrugged, we're hanging out with Corey Schlesinger, the strength coach for the Western Conference NBA champions, Phoenix Suns, which is super cool because NBA players, to me, are like the freak of the freak athletes. Like when he walks in the gym, and I make this joke in the podcast today, like every single person in the gym that he trains at or coaches people at is above 6'6". And I've never coached anyone above 6'6", much less an entire team of the best athletes in the world, and all of them are 6'6". But it's also really cool to get in and see how he breaks down some of the more skilled players versus some of the big players, and how he uses just general assessments on which training programs these people need

to increase their ability to perform at their specific skill and how they fit into the team, and just overall durability and resilience that they need to get through the season, and how on a shortened season like last year, they have just tons of games and such very little recovery. And I was also really blown away to talk about the recovery side of things and how difficult it is for them to recover during game days.

The next day with practice and maintain a really good strength training schedule. So I think you're going to really enjoy this. Anytime we get to have guys that are coaching like the highest level athletes in the world, it's a really special day. So Corey Schlesinger on the show. But before we get into it, we got to thank our sponsors, BiOptimizers. I recently received a question from a listener. She wanted to know if it was possible to avoid digestion problems by eating only healthy

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Make sure you head over to your local Costco, Walmart, Target, or Kroger, or any other grocery store nationwide. Check out Real Good Foods. We'd like to welcome them to the sponsorship of this podcast. And friends, let's get into the show. Welcome to Barbell Shrugged. I'm Anders Varner, Doug Larson, Coach Travis Mash. Today on Barbell Shrugged, Corey Schlesinger, strength coach for the Phoenix Suns. And if you don't know anything about the NBA, you've been there two years now, right? Yeah, two full seasons going into our third.

You came from state third. You actually have an incredibly cool uh resume just in watching how you've kind of come up and made it all the way the nba and now in the western conference championships so second best team in the nba this year is pretty awesome congratulations sir assuming all of the success over the last two years has mainly to do with you, right? Has everything not to do with me. Dude, I think about, like, I've been going to the gym. I'm so proud of myself right now that I've been training for 25 straight summers. Like, I feel like at 38 years old, when you take 25 years out of that, there's only 13 years. That's two-thirds of my life at this point i've been in the gym but i've never been in a gym where every where the smallest guy in the room is six six wild yeah i'll be honest my posture's gotten incredibly better

i could totally see you like, sit lower in your squats. Like, dude, that's like six foot down there. I'm not going all the way. I'll never get up. Like, it's so far. What is, I'm curious, with the basketball players, when it comes to athleticism and movement, like what do you notice at the NBA level?

Well, you got to remember, these guys are outliers. Right. Like in life. And so that's why they get millions of dollars, just because of their bodies. Sure. They can do things that other people in the world can't do athletically with their biomechanics, right, with their long levers. Right. And then you just add skill on top of that.

Right. So trust me, being in college for 10 years, I've had one or two of those three variables, but not all three. At this level, you have all three. You have skill on top of the physical requirements, on top of the athleticism and the engine. It's like, whoa, yeah, if you're missing one of those, you're not making it. That's when you think, oh, here's all this great research on how to get bigger, faster, stronger.

And I'm like, nope, not for my guy. What's your goal? What is your goal as a coach? Availability. You know, that's the number one goal. I mean, the only ability that matters is availability. So these guys being able to do and perform what they do on the court. That is my goal as a string coach. Now, what vessel that comes in? matters is availability. So these guys being able to do and perform what they do on the court,

that is my goal as a string coach. Now, what vessel that comes in? I mean, there's a ton of things like I can use machines, which I use very often with these guys, believe it or not. I use barbells, I use dumbbells, I use kettlebells, I use body weight. There's a lot of things that it doesn't matter. And my philosophy changes per athlete. It's not, here's my general philosophy. Oh, I'm an Olympic lifting guy. So all my guys are going to do Olympic lifting. As much as I love the cleans and snatches, don't get me wrong, great lifts. But when you actually look at force production through the floor, you get to a point where you stop producing force through the floor

and you just start manipulating yourself around the bar to execute the lift. So then now I'm just patting my back as an ego as a string coach as opposed to hey i'm actually having transferability to the court right yeah to what degree are you to what degree you're actually trying to get them to be faster and more powerful versus just keeping them healthy and keeping the best players playing well it's hard to it's hard to answer that to a certain degree because you have guys that are like 22 years old and so they they still have room in the tank for physical development for to be able to hit quote-unquote genetic potential then have guys that are 36 years old and then you go oh like my goal is to keep you here you know another year it depends on a lot right it depends on a whole lot and so

with a lot of these guys you know our end season is the largest part of the season like it's an eight-month season and when people look at it like that it's like oh what's your off season it's like what are you talking about there is no off season yeah like so there's no off-season training yeah off-season training is a the smallest block i have so when you're trying to train you you actually got to program ish and periodize throughout the entire eight months because that's what we're working towards that's the largest training block so when you think well how am i going to do that when they play 3.6 games in a week which is what we went through last year that's that's where the art comes in that's where you have to be truly strategic and there's a lot of trust a ton of trust at that point how much time do you actually get with them a week i can

imagine playing nearly four games a week all they want to do is like go into a rest and recovery and not be training like that that seems like a really difficult process to look at eight months and then realize that you have to not peak four times a week, but you have to be able to play at a hundred percent four times a week. The idea of going to a gym and training hard seems counterintuitive to what you're trying to do. Absolutely. And that's where you kind of see the fold, right? That's where you see, well, we better not train, you know, or we better have a light day. We better have a light week. And then it turns into a light month. And then the next thing you know, you're not training at all. And then now those tissue now started to deteriorate those strength numbers or resiliency is starting to deteriorate. And so you have to have the high days on the high days.

So we lift on game days. Game days for our high minute players are their big lift days. The reason for that is because we want to consolidate that stress. If it's going to be a high day, it's got to be a high day across the board so that we're creating the biggest peaks and valleys as possible. We need those valleys being valleys so they can recover and then come back up. That's where I think a lot of people make the mistake. It's like, well, it's a game day. We don't lift.

We'll lift tomorrow. It's like, man, they're not even recovered from the game. Think about what the game actually is. Remove the basketball for a second. Remove the technical and tactical aspects of it. If you just look at it from a stress standpoint, that's plyometrics for two and a half hours.

Simple as that. And then you think, oh, yeah, we're going to do more. We're going to get them more powerful, and we're going to jump, and we're going to do high-level plyometrics to make them jump higher. What are you talking about? That's the game. So if you train on it, what time do you train? Like how does it fit with the game?

Right. So the way I look at it is, like, when I was at Stanford, I was known for this method called microdosing. And so what we did is we trained every single day. Whether we're in practice or in competition, we trained every single day. And depending on what the day's requirements are, we're going to complement that with that specific type of lift or stressor. So that's when now, being in a professional setting,

I don't have limitations like a class schedule. I don't have NCAA regulations, right, that permit me from not doing things with them post-game. So here, I'm not kidding you, half of our team trains three times a day on a game day. What we do is we take a traditional lift and we split it up. So at Stanford, I did microdosing where we do one session every day. Here, there's a day on game days,

there's guys that train three times in one day. They're just in very small bouts. So we have shoot around in the morning, guys will execute a lift then, more accessory work, basically waking them up, letting them think like that, hitting a lot of the accessory things that they're not going to get through basketball or through, you know, traditional weight training where you're trying to get quote unquote,

bigger, faster, stronger. And then before game, it's more of potentiation. Like this is where we're actually trying to, you know, muscle spindles, GTOs, we're trying to correlation rhythm, then actual power. And so that's when we do that before the game. And then post-game, whatever they have left in the tank, that's where we're hitting our big bang. That's where we're hitting our eccentrics and our isometrics.

And that's where whatever they got left in the tank, all right, we're just going to gas it all out right now. Wow. So, like, that could be late at night, then, I take it. 100%. Yeah. 100%. So what would be some of your

your potentiation list like before the game yes it varies mainly because of the skill level of the athlete in the demands of what that athlete needs like if you're a muscularly driven athlete like you're just big muscle bound you know like speed strength strength speed type lifts are probably good for you like trap bar clean pulls um you know, like speed, strength, strength, speed type lifts are probably good for you. Like trap bar, clean pulls, um, you know, things that are actually like lifting oriented. That's technically what will get them their potentiation better than what I would do with a guy who's a very elastically driven, which that's going to be like, I actually, believe it or not, I do some Bosch-like things where it's water bags, aqua bags, and then it's really from a motor learning perspective,

I'm taking them through a continuum of simple to complex movement patterns. And so for them, I'm training their software. That's what I care about more than anything is before the game, it's software. After the game, it's hardware. I love it. How do you determine? What kind of testing do you do to determine, you know,

who would be your muscularly driven and who would be your, you know, the other folks? I just look at them. I mean, all right. You see a guy with a ton of hypertrophy, you go, yeah, you're probably not elastically driven. You know, and then you see those like skinny dudes who are doing 360 dunks and you go, you're probably elastically driven. You know, you're factually driven, if you will.

So that's number one is the eye test. And I feel like we get into the metrics so much that we forget about what we're seeing with our own two eyes. No doubt. No doubt. And then there's ways of validating that, right? Because at the end of the day, there has to be objectives that get checked so that you know you're progressing. And there's a ton of ways of doing that. And to be honest with you, this past season,

we didn't run into a lot of objectives that we're hanging our hats on because of the chaotic nature that the season was. I mean, 3.6 games a week, more back-to-backs than any other season I think we've ever had. And so at that point, it's like, okay, what's the most low-hanging fruit? What are the things that are going to get the guys the stressors they need as protective mechanisms? And that's, you know, eccentrics and isometrics.

So the last thing I'm going to do with high minute guys is chase outputs. Like, why do I need to go and get counter movement jumps on guys who are already jumping in the game? I need to save those jumps. Like, just so I can pat myself on the back and show a nice little graph, you know, every week saying, look at your progression, you know, or whatever. Like to me, it's like, look, like there's more important things,

which is actually playing the game and if we have an organization that's based on trust value each other and we have this system around us that's we're checking boxes that are just common sense well then i don't have to go and prove myself with all this data analytics or this sports science to say hey you see that 0 that 0.2 meters per second that we increased on his, you know, DDT or whatever. It's like, what are we doing? Like say that for the court, you know? And, and, but now for my low minute guys, that's completely opposite, right? They're not getting that stress on the court. So now it's the exact opposite approach. Yeah. And that's when I can do some cool stuff as a strength coach, as far as, Hey, look how much bigger, faster,

stronger we got as the season goes because they got to get their stress in a different way, which is physical training. Yeah. How do you think about just kind of like the physical wear and tear? Like I feel like sometimes we think about basketball and we see guys shooting three-pointers and they're wide open. But when you got guys that are down low banging for the entire

game that just beats the crap out of people like some guy that's seven foot and 280 running into another guy that's the same size like they're basically playing football down there with no pads on um when you when you start to look at just the general wear and tear are you thinking really about like how do we get this person stronger or is it like how do we just build like a more resilient body that can withstand the beating of an eight-month season i would say both you know it's because it's a balancing act you know the season is basically like a merry-go-round right and sometimes you're up and then sometimes you're down and based off like competition right like you're playing a bunch of bigger, stronger teams, so you might actually be doing different things strategically.

Thus, you might not need to be beating and banging, right? So you might be actually using your speed. And then the real thing is when you look at our guards in the NBA, they're just as physical, if not more physical, than the bigs because the game has changed. It is more about skill-based, and everyone's one through five can shoot a three, and everyone's on the perimeter. The game has changed, and that's why it's so much faster-paced.

That's why the speed component is so important. Don't get me wrong. Physicality, I mean, that's key. But speed and skill, that's where teams that can't match seven-footer for seven-footer for seven-footer for seven-footer. Some of these teams, you look at their starting five, and you're just like, Jesus, their average is 6'10". When you see that, you go, well, Jesus,

you're not going to beat them in the beating and banging game. You just got to outscore them. And so there's a lot more on the technical and tactical aspect that goes into that. But to answer your question, at the end of the day, if tissue is deteriorating, then more than likely you're deteriorating. And so there's a small window where you can have less physical performance and still have good outputs. But, man, that can't last eight months. Yeah.

You know, at some point you gotta train you gotta have controlled stressors that allow you to quote unquote compensate or super yeah when you say isometrics and eccentrics like what are you guys doing in the flywheel training or and then at what angles do you do your isometrics so that that's a great question the the angles for me are everything because i agree we train everything. Now, if we want to break down physics, right? And this is the thing I get hung up on with these very super smart people. You have vertical vectors and then people talk about horizontal vectors. And I think horizontal vectors exist for the way that I explain what I do. But in reality,

everything is technically a vertical vector. You just got to take into account friction. But for the sake of just being super simple and trying to explain, vertical vectors is jumping up and down. Horizontal vectors is sprinting, change of direction, all this other stuff. So the way, and this is once again, just some simplistic terms. So what I think i think well how does most injuries happen and what are the things that happen the most in a game i'm thinking

horizontal vectors because maximum effort jumps don't get me wrong they happen they don't happen that often in comparison to change the direction sliding defensively trying to get around somebody offensively yeah decelerate so likely isn't a single person doing a max effort jump in a game because they can all dunk it like a 50% effort. Well, that's a good point as well. But there's like, you know, you got to go up and get a rebound. That's when you're actually fighting for max outputs. You know, an alley-oop is like an approach jump for real.

You know, things like that. But, man, the game is so, like, those are very rare opportunities because the other team is so skillful and defensively their strategies to not let stuff like that happen. And so, but anyways, as far as the vectors, that's things that I explore is, don't get me wrong, we hit our isometrics in the vertical vector a ton, right? Because that's where I can get the most physical load on a guy

to create hopefully the most tissue adaptation. But I also want to hit the angles that they actually get hurt in. So for example, or hopefully not get hurt in, for example, ankle inversion and eversion. So like, why can't we do isometrics in those funds? Why can't we do that? You know, everybody wants to load the calf i want to load the achilles and they think they're doing ankle training it's like well actually i like getting

on a slant board and having them fully inverted and still staying in a vertical vector even in their quote-unquote ankle if not so then you know and there's a lot of laxity because they've rolled their ankles i mean they play basketball right that's the most prominent injury and there's a lot of laxity because they've rolled their ankles. I mean, they play basketball, right? That's the most prominent injury. So there's a laxity there. So I'd rather build the resiliency within those specific stretches, if you will. And that's what, you know, like you got to get a little bit more creative and think, well, if these are the things that are happening when they actually get injured, then why am I not training them in those positions?

Right. and so you can't get that through traditional weightlifting and if you think you're getting it through traditional weightlifting now just load up the bar and it'll globally take care of itself not true yeah I disagree totally agree yeah yeah do you do it at the angle though like I mean um after talking to you know Dr. Barr like do you do it at complete end range of motion? Because you really don't want them to – once they get there, it doesn't really matter how strong things are. But, I mean, it's about stabilizing it to try and hopefully prevent it completely.

So at what angle do you do inversion, eversion? All of the angles because you've got to think of it like this. All right, we're training a bicep, right? Right right right well parcels train the bicep in a different way all right and then totally full range of motion biceps train the bicep in a different way and then if i pronate my hand then hit more brachioradialis or vice versa and so now i'm hitting a different structure and it's like well now you got to hit all of these in different ranges and at a different movement arm. So that's where it just makes a lot of sense that you can't just go, here's one, because then you get them really, really strong here.

But as soon as they get outside of that, then they have that. It's almost like a giveaway. So you got to train them at end range. And then I like a top-down and bottom-up approach with the same session. So basically we meet in the middle. So I hit them, like, for example, like a cal-down and bottom-up approach with the same session. So basically we meet in the middle. So I hit them, like, for example, like a caldita stuff where it's like a position one where you're like at full plantar flexion, right? Sure. And then at full force flexion.

Force flexion, right. And then you work within that range. And then certain days, like our position two is like a quarter squat with an active foot. So an active foot meaning that you're elevated yeah that your heel is floating in the air yeah but i mean that's what sprinting looks like that's what jumping looks like it makes sense that's when i can load up the heaviest i feel like that what you're saying right there is so much more important than you're saying but like i feel like if the smith coach is listening the one takeaway if they just want to make someone faster if they do what you just said if they would do

like what you call it floating yeah active foot but like by you know having your heel you know like off the platform where you have to stabilize that you know with the Achilles and the calf you know structure if you could create that stability you're going to create you know, with the Achilles and the calf, you know, structure, if you can create that stability, you're going to create, you know, that tendon is going to actually get super strong and thicker, and the structure is going to become tighter, and you're going to get way more energy from that structure when the foot strikes the ground if you do more work like you're saying. I think that's a lot of coaches are missing the boat by not doing that one thing.

I mean, there's two ways to look at it, right? Like what's the vessel that I'm trying to achieve? Am I trying to achieve it from like a balanced proprioception standpoint? Because there's perturbations when it happened at high velocities. It's so fast that I now need to train that. Okay, cool. Like do an active foot squat, but don't have anything to hold on to. That's one way of getting it.

And man, does that blow you up? Or now let's add stability to it. So. That's one way of getting it. And man, does that blow you up or no, it's add stability to it. So now let's do it on a Smith machine. And then now I can add all the load in the world because I don't have to worry about stability. So what am I training? I train the software, which is the balancing proponent to it,

which you still get strength gains from it. Or am I training just the tissue alone? So screw it. Take stability out. Let's load this up. I'm sorry. Let's load this bitch up. And then, I'm sorry, let's load this thing up. You got it. And then from there.

60% adults here. What is, I'd love to know, I mean, you're explaining things very well, but I would love to know what the general movement capacity is when somebody gets to the nba now it's actually starts to come with you like is the is the average nba player coming with a very high quality strength background now that's that's been around coaches or are they just such outliers that every time someone says hey hey, you should start lifting weights, and they're like, yeah, right. Watch me go dunk on this kid.

I'm about to make him look like a fool. Like how do they adapt to these methods that start to get you starting to get buy-in? I think the most important question to really answer is like what is strength? So the way you got to define strength, like if I got a guy who's biomechanically managed, like, okay, I think six, four, six, six, right. Like, and small guy, right. Like it's not like long femurs and short torsos, you know what I'm saying? Then, and they have great hip mobility and they have, you know,

great movement capacity. So I could front movement capacity. I could front squat them. I could back squat them. I could deadlift them. Then that strength, okay, cool. They're competent. Then they're getting strong. Then I have the exact opposite in the spectrum. I have a guy that has zero internal hip rotation.

I got guys that are so stiff that they're not even – they can't even touch their toes. But the reason for that is because that stiffness actually makes them super reactive. And that's what allows them to jump out of the gym probably. So then you go, well, what strength for that guy? And then what strength for this guy? And so it's hard to determine, you know, like what is strong until you actually identify what is strong for that person. Right.

Some guys like a super stiff guy. If I want health and quality, like health quality. Yeah. We probably need to get some range of motion. Yeah. Like a split squat, you know, single leg work. Well, that's pretty limited on how much you can load it compared to a back squat and a deadlift. So then his, his determinant of what his strength is like, maybe it's 80 pound dumbbells for triple a single-leg RDL or on something like that.

So that's where it gets a little, little challenging on what we can and can't do. But I love the question. It's a great, great question. The only problem is how am I going to actually do that across the board with 15 guys and have a stand? But there is an answer, believe it or not. The answer is zero skill. So what I mean by that is we were talking about objectives earlier. The last thing I can have a guy do is have a skill component related to testing.

Because then it depends on who has the most skill, and they're going to be able to do the best. For example, jumping is a skill. So if I'm testing jumping on guys who jump really well against guys who don't jump really well, well, I can't compare apples to apples because in certain guys' games, jumping is important. So most of these guys, jumping is really not that important. They're just seven foot tall,

and they got seven foot four wingspans. So then why do they need to work on, quote-unquote, jumping? Jumping is really not that important. They're just seven foot tall and they got seven foot four wings. Why do I, why do they need to work on quote unquote jumping? And it kind of actually makes a lot of sense. And so that's where I, I question now back to the zero skill component. It's pretty simple.

An overcoming isometric or a myth. I pull that takes zero skill. You're in a biomechanical advantage advantageous position everybody no matter if you're five foot ten or seven foot tall you get measured up and you're at this quarter squat or even a little higher stance and then you just rip into the bar as hard as you can zero skill now i can actually put a number that goes across the board so stuff like that a hand dynamometer, right? Being able to squeeze and grip something really hard and get a metric from that, well, that tells me neurologically what they can do because grip strength is

probably one of the most important indicators of health and well-being. Yeah, on a daily basis. Especially early. Yeah. Right. So why won't we just take these zero skill tests and bring them over to our you know high performance opposed to going you know we got this triple jump or this reactive strength index jump or all these things that are like we're going to test this it's like don't get me wrong that that's a nice

little indicator of of that person but don't compare them to the other person that same way don't compare apples to apples when it comes to those type of testing, because it really is skill dependent. So how often are you doing that? The testing for the mid thigh pulls? Is that like a, like a weekly thing or is that like a, like beginning of the season,

the end of the season? Like how are you incorporating that into the mix? And another amazing question. So we go back to that. We play 3.6 games a week thing, right? When you do a true overcoming ISO and you rip into that thing, I mean, you're taking a lot of energy out of the battery. You really, really are. So the way I look at it is I would like to get that once a month at best. But I think there's some ways that you can strategically place it and do different types of overcoming ISOs in position-specific means. Like, for instance, frontal plane stuff, some transverse plane, some overcoming ISOs strategically like that with some other type of units that will allow me to continuously train overcoming ISOs and monitor it, but it can't be through the same test all the time.

And what that does is it gives me more of like a bigger sample sizing, which will let me know like, oh, man, they really do a great job creating force in the frontal plane, but they do a terrible job creating force in the vert, like over in a sagittal plane. Why is that? Well, they're really good at changing direction. They suck at jump cool that's super easy now these are things that we can at least hang our hats on you know here are areas for improvement or here are areas that they're actually good at and let's see if we can monitor that throughout the season

because when that changes that's when we know we have an issue you guys use gps or any of that kind of tracking um peaks and valleys so i have to assume you're looking at something like effect size or acute to chronic but i don't know that i mean there's a million there's a million different things especially in the nba but the nba they have what's called second spectrum and so that's in every single nba arena so that's actually basically video analysis. And it allows me to see like high speed sprinting, all these other things that you see. It's cool.

It's cool. But the question is this. Okay, I have this data. Hey, coach, I don't think you can play our best player because it's high minute. He's going to look at me and go, what do you mean we can't play our best player? You know what I'm saying? And it's like, look,

some of this data is important and it's great to have conversations, especially when you talk about low managing players, but there is another piece to it that it's like, yeah, but we played all of our players all year round in the worst season ever. And we held up pretty well. And at any moment I could have said, you know, this one player can't play. Like, he's got to rest a game and lose. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's a balance there where it's –

Unless it's truly alarming and there's symptomatic things, like, you know, my knee hurts. But there's, like, nothing wrong wrong and they're not complaining of symptoms. And I'm the one who goes in and tells him, Hey, his speed sprinting's down. I don't know. He can't perform. What do you mean he can't perform? He's performed his whole life that way. Yeah. Yeah. You know, this environment is 80%. Like, and then at 80% you're performing and it gets lower and lower as the

season goes and that's everybody across the board now the only way that changes is if you actually get hurt and then when you come back you're actually pretty fresh which is wild to think about yeah injury is one of the best ways of having you know a global recovery. But it's just too – I think it's – as far as the athlete monitoring perspective, unless you're a head coach, it doesn't matter. Unless you're a founder, it doesn't matter. I would love to dig into the rest and recovery protocols that you guys have um from cross-country travel time zone changes jet lag and uh that that can kind of be the first one that one interests me a ton uh but also just post game and uh kind of like how do you how do we just put the piece yeah how

do you keep going because that's yeah it's do you keep going? Because it's not glamorous. I'm sure there's pieces that are glamorous, but it's also a grind to play back-to-backs like that. Yeah, for sure. I think the number one thing to understand is you don't really need recovery if you have proper planning. That's something I think people are like, oh, I've got to recover. Why? Like if we, if we didn't practice hard, and all you did was perform in the game, and this is something you've done for six years of your life, then what recovery strategy do you need? recovery modalities because think of it as medicine, right?

There's a time of the year where you want inflammation off season. I want to put their, you know, put them in the dirt. And the reason for that is because I'm trying to create this robustness from a cellular standpoint so they can handle high loads of stress. Problem is everyone wants massages year round. Everyone wants ice tubs year-round. Everybody wants these recovery modalities that are very potent, very potent. And what I mean by that is that's a good thing, but you should strategically use it. You shouldn't use it all the time.

So, for example, if we're, like, flying across the country and we're in a back-to-back and we're, like, in the northeast and we have six games in eight days man massage red light therapy you know ivs i mean everything across yeah flood them with that but the problem is when that becomes a norm and you're at home and you have two games in a week and you got nothing else going on but yet we're still throwing on all these modalities because I got to recover, then you lose your potency of it. You lose the effectiveness of that recovery modality. So when I say proper planning, I go, well, certain times of the year, we should really highly emphasize these certain things. But the rest of the time, get rid of it.

Like we're trying to create robustness from a cellular standpoint. And so don't get me wrong. Like I would love to just flood you with protocols, you know, like when we were traveling from East coast to West coast, West coast, East coast, we should nap at this time. But the reality is you can't blanket that kind of stuff because it's tiny. Yeah. I I'm glad you did. I think having that, that setup, I've never even thought about recovery in, in that manner. Cause I'm always thinking like if,

when working with people like that there would be some specific thing post game, everyone goes and hops in an ice bath. But if we, if we don't need all that, then the hell's the point of adding all this extra stuff into their day. Do you guys handle the jet lag piece? I'm likely a little older than all of the players, but I notice jet lag being something that is so brutal. And then being a second shift worker for the most part um those two things combined together seem like they would make a massive hole just over time like over the season like those would start to beat your physiology

down just without having that like physical strain going um like the physical strain at night as well but um those two things like they would be really tough throughout a season. I couldn't agree more with that. And that's the thing that's the hardest part to really take on is the high physical and emotional stressor of all this traveling and we're not even playing the game. Yeah. You know, it's not even a physical. It's not a stressor that I'm creating.

Yeah. By running and sprinting, I'm just traveling. I'm just sitting in a seat. It's not a stressor that I'm creating by running and sprinting. I'm just traveling. I'm just sitting in a seat. The air quality is different, right? Yeah. And that's the part that's like, how do we get these guys the proper micronutrients? And that's where it goes down to a bunch of blood testing.

And not saying that, once again, I don't want to speak in like two specifics, but blood testing tells us a lot about micronutrient deficiencies. And if you have certain deficiencies, it doesn't like all that travel does is make it more apparent. And so the idea is that if we're flooding them with the proper micronutrients for their profile, if we are sleeping in as much as possible, because I think that's the biggest thing that we do well is we sleep in. I mean, we get in at two o'clock, three o'clock in the morning. I don't think we're going to have anything in the morning or that next day morning for practice or anything. So the only things you can do, because this is the unfortunate circumstance that you're in, that's the environment

you're in. What can you do the best about it? Once again, going back to proper planning. Well, the one thing that's going to help people recover more than anything is proper sleep so as long as we have like those are big rocks man huge rocks so as long as we can put them in an environment to have the best and most optimal sleep between games that's going to give us the biggest rock as far as recovery modality next what you can add to that is obviously timing right like if i want to want to travel East Coast, West Coast, or West Coast to East Coast, there's certain times where it's more optimal to nap, maybe on certain flights than you would on others. But you can't force guys to nap.

They want to play poker and they want to bet or they want to, you know, do all these things. Like you can't force all these things. But I hear exactly what you're saying. It makes a ton of sense. I would love to speak in generalities like most people would. Yeah, this is our team's protocol, and this is what we do, and that's why we're performing this stuff.

The reality is none of that actually happens. And people that speak that way, I think it's kind of criminal because it's like, yeah, this is the thing. No, that's not the reality. You don't control these guys like you think you do. Plus, these guys are in the NBA. They're trying to go out and beat NBA players when they walk into the club, all six, eight of them walking in.

There's only two people in there, you and your buddy that are six, eight, staring down on the whole club at once. Well, I think COVID's awesome because of that because there's, like, not so much of that anymore. There can't be big groups at the VIP. Well, I think the bubble was amazing because i think you've seen the best performances out of these guys because a lot of distractions are out of their life sure yeah i mean yeah i mean to a certain degree yeah to a certain degree

there are there are situations where it's okay to risk COVID. Yeah. But the thing is, it was like a biodome. Remember the movie Biodome? It was like that. Yeah, Pauly Shore. That was the best. Dude, right? Think about like Biodome. Biodome made it to Barbell Strugged.

Biodome for professional athletes, and you see some of the best performances you've ever seen. And it's like, wow like that was special you know there are certain players that really flourished during that time and luckily the Suns was one of those teams yeah I mean I guess I was just going to talk about sleep

all you can really do is tell them go back to it yeah you know any athlete all you can really do is like say here are some great protocols but you can't force them you're not going to go, you know, any athlete, all you can really do is like say here are some great protocols, but you can't force them. You can't go to their – you're not going to go to their rooms and tuck them in, you know. Like you can only tell them this is optimal, this is what the studies say,

and then they're going to do what they're going to do. You're totally right. They're going to play poker. Some are going to follow it. You know, one in a million is going to follow it, and then the rest are going to do what they're going to do. I mean, that's kind of like the role of the veteran to be like, yo, go listen to that guy.

If you want to be here in 10 years, you got to go listen. Well, that's the thing. When you become a veteran, you feel the age, and then you realize, oh, God, I got to sleep. And then you go out and see, like, my teammate is, like, 10 years younger, and they're going out and, like, doing whatever. And they're like, I remember when I used to do that, but I can't do that no more.

I will say this. You know, you guys are familiar with Greg Olson, like, the great tight end. Long career, like, you know, played some of the most games in a row of any athlete. You know, knowing him, I would say that he definitely went above and beyond the other athletes, you know, in the Carolina Pamps organization that is about taking care of himself. Like sleep was super important. His recovery protocols were super structured. And so there's always a reason why certain guys do better than others.

So all the young athletes that might be listening, you know, it's definitely not saying, hey, don't do any of this stuff. You know, if you want to be great like someone like Greg Olson, you probably should follow certain protocols. Because he sure did. Look, there's a work-life balance, but then there's also greatness. Right. Yeah.

And so I'm not saying that you shouldn't have one or the other, but there are sacrifices to being great. And it's as simple as that. It's as simple as that. And if you want to choose to be great and put yourself in an environment to be great there's a lot of sacrifices you're going to have to make simple that's right yeah uh you personally what drew you to you've been you've been in basketball your whole career correct yeah uh was that always the goal like what what drew you to training with these super freaks that's what I think all basketball players are

they're the most amazing athletes to me they're so big it's unbelievable but the NBA was never the goal period like I had no ambition I've been on I think over 30 podcasts now and most of them I get that question especially when I was in college do you ever want to go to the NBA and it was always no never like I had no, like no, no ambition. My problem was I got pretty comfortable though. And I stopped developing. You know, I got to the point where I was really fishing for newer environments to push myself. And luckily I had the great opportunity to come here.

And wow, is it like, if I go back to college, there's a lot that I would do different. There's a ton I would do different. But as far as basketball, I play in college basketball, but like the lowest level, like D, 3, 6, 5. Like it's like N-A-I. A lot of people haven't even heard of N-A-I. I didn't even know what it was when I went. I was like, what's N-A-I?

It's not NCAA? What is that? So I played the lowest level of college basketball but basketball is something I've always been passionate about and to be honest as a player I wasn't mature enough to handle what a good team or a good teammate even is yeah and I didn't really experience that until I wanted to be a string coach and so when I started seeing the guys do the things that I used to do, I was like, man, I should get more minutes.

Or, you know what, like, I'm just going to do the bare minimum just to get through practice. I look at that and I go, oh, my God, that was me. Yeah. And so really all I've been doing for the past 15 years is training who I wish I was. Like, I'm trying to train myself through others. And that's really what it is.

Like, it's like, God, I would do anything to kick that 17, 18 year old Corey's ass to be like, dude, like, why, why didn't you just do something very, this is simple things. And it's like, it wasn't a priority. And why wasn't it a priority? And these are the things that I look at back now. And I think that's what made a great coach is because I'm truly passionate about coaching myself when in reality the vessels are these other athletes.

Yeah. Where do you see your role in like the culture of the organization? I think for me and owning a gym and having athletes and things like that, that like grind that everybody shares in the gym has always been like such a critical component, but I'm always coaching like CrossFitters or powerlifters or Olympic weightlifters. Like that is their sport to be in the gym when, when their actual job is to be on the court but you're a massive piece of it how do you see kind of that that culture in the gym reflected on the court consistency like that's the biggest part is like the energy that we create in that gym

my goal is to create an environment that's just infectious right yeah and that's where it turns into like look people can use certain protocols like hey you have to get 12 lifts in in a month or else you can find yeah i don't like that we don't we don't do that we don't we don't have a fine structure for that type of stuff because i've never had to have it and it's because we have such i don't want to use the word inviting because it's a part of our job, but like, it's fun. Like if you see my weight room, like you walk in there and you go, Oh my God, like I can get better here. Like, and there's just so many toys and new things to, to, to challenge yourself with. But it's almost like we've created an environment

where if you're not doing something or you're not training then you look bad like people are looking at you like what are you doing yeah and so that's where that's the that's the thing i don't know it wasn't the goal it just turned into that where and once again that that is a stem from our team and organization culture especially with our head coach um that it's like guys want to be there. And it's because we've recruited and we've signed just high-character people. I mean, at the end of the day, if you have high-character people, work's going to get done.

And that's the one thing that I credit our GM and our head coach for doing is bringing in high-character people where our environment is fun. Guys want to be in there. And so when you create an environment of that, and then obviously you throw in some trash talk and some competition, the next thing you know, you're having a fun time. I bet NBA trash talk is so awesome. Oh, my gosh. It's actually special.

I just want to listen to NBA trash talk. That's like the best trash talk there is. It's special. It really is special. I just want to listen to NBA trash talk. That's like the best trash talk there is. It's special. It really is special. There's a lot of intelligence behind it, too. Like, you wouldn't suspect. You're like, oh, my God. Like, that's deep.

You have to go home, and then later you go, oh, man. That actually, wow. No wonder why he felt that way. Well, yeah, those guys have been playing together since they were probably 12 years old at every AAU tournament that's existed on this, you know. Like, we went to – two years ago into Adidas Uprising, and, like, every single college coach was sitting there

watching a bunch of 9- and 10-year-olds. And they were courtside. I was like, imagine being 10 years old, getting flown out to Vegas and you got UNC Duke. Like they're just all lined up right there. And you're, you're 10 like,

God, they're already coming after you. Like they've been, they've been, Oh, each other's backgrounds. So well, it,

man, it's a, it takes special people to make it long term in this because the immediate immaturity right is like oh man look at me i'm getting by let me get i need all these youtube videos instagram clips all this stuff you know look at this picture okay now it's that commitment time all right here's 30 different schools i get to choose from let's work my way down to this final four and then I'm going

to make a choice and then you go to college and you do whatever. Then it's the draft and the amount of like maturity you have to have to make it long term. I mean,

you got to be a grown man by the age of 18. And that's where it's like, wow, or, or, have such a tight camp around you that makes sure you don't fall into that yeah i would imagine yeah um how is the communication between i imagine you

kind of sit in a in an interesting role between athletic trainer and coach um or I say coach, like the head coach actually on court, in that you have to be managing both of those expectations with athletic trainers being a little bit more on the hesitant side of trying to get people prepared for games and injury-free, and then coaches just making sure that guy's on the court no matter what. How do you manage communication between those two sides of things? And then I don't know if you're kind of like the filter for each of them to communicate directly to each other.

I don't know if that made sense, but I feel like the strength coach sits really in the middle of kind of like the rehab and the performance world all at the same time. So I'll put it like this so we can talk about like two extremes and that might paint the picture. Like in football, college football, you know, the strength coach is the second head coach, right? Yeah.

That's what's like special about training conditioning, especially in college football, is they're held with that kind of regard. And then in other sports, it's different. Not saying that it's any less, but it's different. And so when you have culture and you have a sport that is kind of late in game as far as iron, then there's other things that are like, oh, what's more important? At the end of the day, you've never seen anybody – performance in other sports is now making its big wave

because football, wrestling, that was always an iron sport. It was always known that you're lifting weights, and that's a part of culture. Basketball, that's kind of new as far as globally, as far as everyone like smoking cigarettes in the locker room and stuff like Boston Celtics. I mean, there's guys like, I mean,

there's some of the most famous basketball players never lifted. Yeah. You know, I guess it's just one jacked. No, he wasn't. But like, there's a lot like, I mean, there's, there's certain stories of guys that are not direct. But, like, there's a lot – I mean, there's certain stories of guys

that would actually, like, you know, not too long ago would just pay all their fines in one time so they don't have to be in the weight room. Like, there's things like that where you go, well, wow, that's impressive. But with this new wave, performance is, like, taking, like, kind of like this big role and responsibility. And so when you, we have a large staff and in the NBA,

there's like anywhere between eight to 12 support staff members that support 15 athletes. So you got to think that's, that's almost one to one therapy. That's strength conditioning, that's sports psychology, that's nutritionists. So you have like

the most amount of resources it's almost a one-to-one ratio that's what i'm saying yeah and it's it's unbelievable but that is the difference between like it's not that you sit in the middle it's the the collaboration of all these different entities and then you own your own space and when you own your own space then it's very objective at that point. It's like, Hey, this, this is what Corey does.

Corey does this really well. No one step on that toe. And we all have that same mutual respect. And so, but now back in college, I love college for this. I mean, it was just me and athletic training.

So I'm the nutritionist. I'm the physical therapist. I'm the psychologist, you know, I'm all of these things because, the physical therapist. I'm the psychologist. I'm all these things. The most purest form of a coach, in my opinion, is track and field. Track and field before this huge age of performance was all of that. They were the technical coach of sprinting. They were the strength coach.

They were the massage therapist. They were the psychologist. They were the nutritionist. Because they saw all aspects and how that all fits together there is no hey what do you think hey what do you think but you know and there's all these different opinions and biases it was just hey i see his performance from almost to the point where i can visually see objectives with my eyes that's the dude right but you're only working with one athlete, so you can pull that kind of stuff off. Now you're in this different world where it's a team sports setting. You have 12 support staff members. Us, we have nine that support 15 athletes.

Then that comes to you've got to have some humility, and you've got to have some vulnerability. And it's like, hey, you know what? You are the expert in this. Please tell me what you think is best for this athlete, and that's what we're going to execute. So once again, owning your space, hey, you know what? You are the expert in this. Please tell me what you think is best for this athlete, and that's what we're going to execute. So once again, owning your space, hey, Corey's got strength.

Corey tells us what he needs from a strength standpoint. Nutritionist goes, hey, this is what he needs from timing. Athletic training goes, hey, this is what time I need to get him taped up or what I need to do for him to get him ready for the game. That's where it's cool because it's a true team within a team.

That is cool. If you have a good running system. You guys each have your own variables measured. Do you have any kind of reports you give? As long as they're playing and they're healthy, we're good or what? I mean, that's kind of the ultimate goal, right? If they're playing and they're healthy, then we're good. We're good.

But the objectives, it goes back to the sports science stuff that we were talking about earlier. Like what is strong for this guy and what is needed for this guy? You have to clarify that? 100%. And that's where it generally goes from, you work backwards from injury history, right? Because the biggest indicator of a future injury is a past injury right and so you always work backwards from that so if you have a hamstring individual well we better have some protocols and some measurables for their hamstrings because that is the thing that they're probably going to do the most right and obviously foot and ankle so there's all these different systems we have what's calledos. Delos is a basically a gamified way of working on proprioception and balancing.

It keeps like an objective score on how they're doing asymmetry left and right. Stuff like that's cool. Like it's, you know, and there's a lot of intent because it's gamified and that's what we try to do. Same in the weight room, some other, other means methods. But yeah, there's, there's objectives. The problem is not many people you have long term. Yeah. So when you've got guys that are coming in and out mid-season, you've got guys that are signing every single year.

Well, all right, here's a three-month snapshot. Yeah. Three-month snapshot in a guy's total career. You tell me what you're going to derive from that information. You know? Yeah. And so that's why I always – like college was great because i had four years i had four years long-term planning long-term planning you could do some cool stuff that's actually a really interesting thing that

i i hadn't even thought about uh in your position because they're and you don't have like a direct line from like the d league to coming to play with you or coming to train with you. The D-League is its own thing, and then people get drafted out of there, right? Kind of. The D-League or the G-League is a little different. We actually sold our G-League team, so we don't even have a G-League team anymore. But whatever it is, you're not working with the strength coach

of some specific team where you're building a program where like the major league or in baseball, they've got rookie league, six leagues in between. Then you get to AAA. And by the time you get there, you've been a part of a program for X number of years. I was wondering about that. It depends on the organization. Each organization structures that differently. I won't say which name of this organization, but the director of performance oversees all that is done in the G League teams. And then they hire strength coaches to be able to execute what's going on there.

Obviously, the boot's on the ground, so they're making reactive decisions based off what's presenting to them. But it's a theme, right? So then if you come up to the first team, then it's a smooth transition. Yes, those things exist, but it depends on what your priorities of your organization is. If you're a developmental organization, that makes sense. For instance, if you're in a very low market team or you're a low market team, you're probably not attracting the top, top stars to come to your city to play.

So what you're going to have, no matter how much money is on the table. So what you're going to have to do is you're actually going to have to develop young talents and then use them as assets to rather keep your organization winning or to trade off to get some of these other players. So that's where it's different like for us i wouldn't say that we are doing long-term development unless we have our super max guys right you're trying to win now sure oh yeah i can't speak for our front office and our general management but sure everyone's trying now yeah yeah a few minutes ago you mentioned pre-existing injury being the number one predictor of injury.

I've heard Greg Cook say that many times. I've also heard him say that the second leading indicator of injury is movement asymmetry. Do you guys test for any of that or try to control for any of that in any way? Yeah. So as far as what we were talking about earlier, as far as the re-injury that to me is always the number one indicator because that was created for a specific reason of 18 to 20 years of their human life right so then being able to go well here's a plan that's going to you know mitigate that for two to three months i mean that's kind of that that's it's challenging it can be done it has been done but that is the first thing that you attack because that is going to be the most obvious thing that's going to happen again if it's not treated appropriately.

Now, as far as asymmetries, I firmly disagree. And the reason why I disagree, there is certain symmetries that make sense, right? But if you truly look at, and this is like deep down the rabbit hole, which I challenge the listeners to get outside your normal thought process of you should have the same strength in your left leg than you do your right leg. Technically, if you really look at your legs, they do two totally different things. And that's going to be really hard for a lot of listeners to hear. No, it's not. It's good.

Every sprint coach would agree with everything you're saying. You know what I'm saying? Some guys' left legs are a lot stiffer and they have more elastic qualities than their right leg. Their right leg is more. There's two different purposes. Now I'm going to take the same test and I'm

going to say, whoa, they're asymm asymmetrical I don't know that's when you go now is that's where pre testing and post testing makes sense so for instance let's just say a nor board right and that's pretty simple it's a hamstring isometric or isometric and then you look at left and right and then they get hurt okay well obviously there's an asymmetry that was there that maybe if we got them back to baseline and then 110% of their baseline, that's going to protect them, sure. But as far as, like, asymmetries, like their squat is off or, you know, shit like that, I just firmly disagree because I've just seen it in the best athletes

in the world they have the most extreme asymmetries i've ever seen but it's also what makes them good at sport and those asymmetries exist because of what they developed so for a good example there i've worked with two gold medal swimmers and man one of them is super like muscularly driven like should have been 100 meter or not muscularly driven but just like stout it should have been 100 meter sprinter um zero like in my opinion she had zero asymmetries like all the objectives worked on she was just extreme like extremely well-rounded but she was also the fastest swimmer right that's output based then the other one who wins and a lot of other different events is like came and walked down a flight of stairs without me being scared that she's going to fall on her face

like the worst land athlete you'll ever see in your life but she's also probably one of the most decorated athletes in the world yeah i know who that person is you're talking about i didn't know that that's cool she's super she's got like 15 gold medals or something crazy. I don't know if that's true. I don't know who you're talking about. I'm just going to go ahead. Yeah, I know. I don't know who you're talking about.

But she's really special. I love that. I feel like I just learned something that NBC didn't tell me over the Olympics. But, you know, working with her, it was – there was two totally different challenges. And then the asymmetry didn't matter because the asymmetry is what made her special in her sport so why am i going to change that in the weight room get out of here but like and plus it's a non-gravity based course so like it ain't like this force is going to be created to hurt somebody anyways so like i get what um mr cook is saying

and there are there is research that suggests certain asymmetries. But what I'll say is the best athletes in the world have the most extreme asymmetries you've ever seen. Every human is asymmetrical by nature. Every human. Outstreaming and asymmetrical human, I guess you'd tell. I mean, where does your heart sit? Which lung is bigger? Where does your organ sit?

You have an asymmetry. You did it to know that there are certain you know muscles that there's some research like hamstrings for example there's some research that states you know if you have asymmetry in your you know hamstrings then but for the most part we're all asymmetrical by nature i think you just have to also question the subjects that were tested. I would also question the means and the timing of what they were tested. I would also, you know, like, don't get me wrong, like, research is important and it keeps us asking more questions. I think that's the best way to look at research is it gives us some objective data to go, let me go further.

But as far as, like, I think our biggest problem is we take research and we take the exact protocols they used and go, Oh, pick and plug. Let me put that into my environment and it's going to have the same effect. I think that's ridiculous. Well, this one I'm looking at, I think you would like because it's actually, it was performed on professional soccer players. So, you know, it wasn't professional basketball players,

but it was at least elite athletes. Well, it looks at the sport itself. Soccer is played in a big open field. So they're in flight phase constantly. Basketball, we never hit flight phase. It's all XL, D cell. So then we have a hamstring in basketball. It's not because of flight phase. It's a different mechanism. So that's me taking soccer literature and saying, oh, that's the mechanism. I need to come bring it over to basketball. See, like that's like taking soccer literature and saying oh that's the mechanism i need to come bring it over to basketball see like that's like the higher level it's like you got to ask them really deep

questions because if you just take that for what it is and go boom let me plug that into the basketball world and i'm working with seven footers who have a hamstring issue that's going to be different than this five five italian who has a hamstring issue. So that's where, once again, like I trash on this stuff all the time because I've, I've directly seen like the cause and effect of it. Totally. I would just say that, you know, you know, I was, when I, when I see something like this, I would say, it would just make me lift an eyebrow and, you know, keep my own data, you know, cause like.

For sure. Anecdotal data is by far the best data. And people don't want to give themselves credit for anecdotal data. I literally have to have, or how should I say this? Anecdotal data to me is by far the most important data because it's my environment with my athletes in this particular and so there's no stronger data than what i'm seeing in real time and the problem is when we go back and try to compare that data to other data and we think that we're making these cause and effects i don't know and also the biggest thing that I think I can say is luck. People don't get like, there's some shitty strength coaches out there and there is some like Pete,

like there's some shitty situations, but guess what? They still don't end up getting hurt and they're winning. And you know, like, like if you have genetic freaks, like let's just take for example, an sec school.

Now I have all the respect in the world for sec football strength coaches they do a great job i'm just saying let's just they're winning no matter what because those athletes are so freakish they're so i mean they're so no matter what bs a strength coach throws at them you're going to back squat 500 pounds and you're going to do it multiple times a week, whatever. They can handle your BS and still go perform. Yes, because they have mom and dads. But guess what?

I'm a great strength coach, though. No, you're not. I'm a great strength coach, and that's where I'm at. I challenge all that. Show me the strength coach that takes a D3 athlete, and then all of a sudden that D3 athlete becomes an NFL. Then that's the fifth coach I want to know about. That's what I think about track and field.

When you've got a guy who can take a gold medal sprinter or a bronze medal sprinter and then get them gold with an Olympic cycle. I want to know what they did. I want to know what that guy did. Me too. I want to know what that guy did. When you can take great and make them greater, I want to know what that guy did. Me too. I want to know what that guy did. When you can take great and make them greater, I want to know what that guy did. Because most of the time, if they're great, it doesn't matter what you do with them.

They're going to like sustain with their level of greatness. But you change someone from like a 9.8 or like a 9.9 to a 9.6, I want to know what you did. I do too because that's the only one other human that ever has done that. So I definitely want to know what you did. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. That's where we always have to extrapolate from those people, because the art behind what they do is so much more important than the science behind what they do.

You know what's even crazier is, on the other hand, that symmetry in the low back has been shown to lead to injury. There's the other side of that, which is like, well, I know my back is totally asymmetrical. It's always been, you know, I only had one back problem when I'm a world team powerlifter. So, yeah. I mean, I look at it like this. Like, if we go back to that example where one leg does one thing and another leg does another or has like their special abilities, let's just say one is a turbo and one is a diesel engine let's just use that well if you pull a deadlift how do you

think that energy is being dispersed throughout the body so let's just say the right leg is the diesel engine that's the one that's going okay i'm gonna hit shift over here because that's what's strong and then that energy just ping pongs up the body. And so you wonder where these asymmetries come from. I mean, supposedly, I can't confirm this, but like supposedly Usain Bolt has extreme scoliosis. To me, that makes a lot of sense. If he's able to put that much force into the ground with one leg, and then the other one's kind of like a kickstand,

it makes you recycle that one leg, then forces, that actually makes a lot of sense. Now, once again, I can't confirm that, but if I was to theorize, actually makes a lot of sense now once again i can't confirm that but if i was to theorize that makes a ton of sense i asked i can tell you that johan blake is bad johan blake is faster than me we got it on video they rake by a lot i mean from all i could tell he is perfectly whatever. Asymmetric, symmetric, doesn't matter. That's the fastest man you've ever seen. Corey, let me just say this.

If Anders had been a deer and Johan was a tiger, I'd sure ask Anders. I know what that sounds like when the deer is about to get eaten. It's just like sad day. We went down to Jamaica. Yeah, we went down to Jamaica and hung out with a bunch of really cool people, a bunch of like 18-year-olds that are trying to be world-class track athletes. Every single one of them.

They're running 10-5s and have no chance. 10-5s. Like, hey, come to the States and play football. Yeah. That's what I told them all, man. Places for you to run. Yeah.

There's places for Phil at 100 Meter Springs. That's right. Lots of them. That's what we do with Team USA. Yeah. And then next,

hey, just go play football. Go be, I mean, go be awesome. Or come go to college for free and run your 10-5

and like Florida State will love you. You know, so yeah. Fact. Go be awesome. Or come go to college for free and run your 10-5, and Florida State will love you. Yeah, exactly. My favorite question to ask people that surround themselves with athletes like you, what's the freakiest thing you've seen in the gym or on the court or just like that guy when you got – just look at you and go, what the hell did I just see? Oh, man. I saw a 50-yard, 10-pound med ball throw one time.

What did you see? What was that? I saw a 50-yarder. I saw – because, once again, I don't want to divvy out names. But, like, we were doing reverse med ball throws. 50 yards. Well, we did – so at this one school, we had a field goal post that was movable. And it was cool because it wasn't like a medium.

It was like two sides and it had wheels, so you could walk through the middle no problem. So what I was using it for was kind of like playing danny ball or basically like just getting some overhead through um uh throws and different types of twisting throws and so it was more of like challenging the higher up that ball got the more eccentric load the other individual got and so then it gamified and then it just became this you know basically beach or medicine ball volleyball with throwing opposed to hitting. But then we got to the point where we're like, okay,

let's actually just see outputs. Let's just see how far y'all can throw. So what it turned into is we started in the end zone, and we just kept pushing the goalposts. So the goal was just to make it over the field goalposts. What I didn't realize was where the ball was landing. And so they were trying to throw it over the field goal post, which at that point,

once we got it further out, their trajectory was perfect for throwing for height and distance. The next thing you know, that shit landed on the 50-yard line, and I just stopped. How tall was this person? I'm just kidding. 6'8". I'm telling you it makes sense.

6'8", muscular, you never, ever believed in your life. The longer you can produce force, the more velocity you can create. There you go. I mean, mass moves mass, man, at the end of the day. That was really impressive. And then I also saw a five-minute – or no, excuse me. It was a five- or no, excuse me. It was a five minute two arm hang. And then I saw a three two arm hang. Yeah. Just hanging from a five minute one,

which that really impressed me. That one was actually really impressive. And then what else was another good one? I feel like Anderson could do that. Oh, I had a guy. I'm going to go try now for sure. The K-Go. Have you seen the K-Go's or the K – so it's like the K-Box. It's the flywheel.

Yeah, flywheel. It's the one you attach on the wall. So it's like the pulley system. The Kratos. What's it called? The Kratos. The Kratos. You're talking about the one that's from – he's been on our show,

the great Kratos. No, it's by K-Box. Oh, okay. So it's the K-Pulley. That's what it is. It's a K-Pulley. So it's a flywheel. I had a guy rip one out of a wall.

That was pretty cool. Whoa. Out of a concrete wall. That was like – There you go. Don't be mean to him. Love that. Yeah, don't be mean to him.

This is my favorite question. When you're surrounding yourself with freaks like that you just see freaky stuff and oh here's one of my favorites I think it was like a 285 for a guy that was like 170 behind the neck jerk

there you go that was kind of impressive he was like a skinny little kid with a 6 foot 8 wingspan he's like six foot two and just and i was like that's actually i see that all the time but like not at six eight and skinny yeah that was pretty impressive oh beautiful uh where can people find you man i love having you on the show. This has been great. Where can people look for you? Yeah, usually Instagram.

I haven't been as active since I've been in the NBA, but I'm trying to become more active because I got some things on the pipeline that I'm really excited about. So hopefully you guys can see it. But you can follow me at slash strength, S-C-H-L-E-S, strength. Once again, slash strength, S-C-H-L-E-S, strength, once again, slash strength, S-C-H-L-E-S, strength on Instagram.

What do you have in the pipeline? Is it top secret? It's a little top secret right now. All right. There you go. I got prototypes being built. Oh. And I'm going to roll out a campaign, so like a Kickstarter for it.

Awesome. Beautiful. I'm going to have you back on for that. It'll be great. Fantastic. I appreciate that, fellas. Yeah, dude. Travis Fast, tell the people. Masterly.com. Go to have you back on for that. It'll be great. Fantastic. I appreciate that, fellas. Yeah, dude. Travis Fast, tell the people.

Masterly.com. Go to Instagram, Masterly Performance. Doug Larson. Doug Larson on Instagram. I appreciate you coming on, man. I've been a fan for a while and just love the fact that you hang out with NBA people. The fact that an NBA player can get a ball in their hands and shoot a three-pointer and it goes in

is like the most mind-boggling thing in the world to me. Like they do it all day long, and it's just mind-boggling that that ball goes in the hoop. Imagine shooting a cantaloupe. Imagine shooting a cantaloupe because that's what it's like for them. When you think of it like that, it's even more amazing. It's crazy. I'm Anders Varner at Anders Varner

we are Barbell Shrugged at Barbell underscore Shrugged make sure you get over to DieselDadMentorship.com where all the busy dads are getting strong lean and athletic and you can find us in 2200 Walmart that's 2200 Walmart coming in November

so get into the performance nutrition section in the pharmacy. 2,200 Walmarts means that if it's not a Walmart that you're on and you can't see my face on a box, you need to go to the cool Walmart right next door because that's over half of them in the country. Friends, we'll see you guys next week.