Barbell Shrugged - Physiology Friday: ​​[ENERGY] Why You Do Not Have It and How to Get Tons of It w/ Anders Varner, Doug Larson, Travis Mash and Dan Garner Barbell Shrugged

Episode Date: July 26, 2024

In today’s episode of Barbell Shrugged you will learn: Why stimulants and coffee will not solve your energy problems Pros and Cons of “smart” drugs How small efforts of exercise can significantly improve your energy Why exercise is important for energy as you age How morning walks can optimize circadian rhythm and improve energy Melatonin's role in clearing cellular debris and repairing mitochondria Understanding energy systems and how to train them How micronutrient deficiencies effect energy levels   To learn more, please go to https://rapidhealthreport.com Connect with our guests: Anders Varner on Instagram Doug Larson on Instagram Coach Travis Mash on Instagram Dan Garner on Instagram

Shrug family, this week on Barbell Shrug, Physiology Friday is back and we are talking about energy, why you lack it, how to get it, and why you need more of it. Dan Garner is going to be taking a deep dive into the biomarkers, optimal reference ranges, and how we start to unpack the idea of you getting more energy from the lifestyle to the labs. This is the episode that is going to allow you to feel like you are 20 years old again. Even if you're like 80, you can feel 20 after listening to this. As always, friends, make sure you get over to rapidhealthreport.com. That is where Dr. Andy Galpin has a free eight-minute video on the three-step process that we use

for you to unlock your true physiological potential. How do we make the best in the world better? You can access that free video over at rapidhealthreport.com. Friends, let's get into the show. Welcome to Barbell Shrug. I'm Andrew Garner, Doug Larson, Coach Travis Mash, Dan Garner. Today on Barbell Shrug, we're talking about energy. This is hands down the number one thing that people coming into the program, I don't know if it's necessarily to complain about, but bring up as their biggest issue. We spent a little time last week talking about testosterone, how that affects energy. But today we're going to dig into a

bunch of pieces. The first thing that always comes up is how people mask their lack of energy and getting into stimulants. And most notably, myself included, caffeine, coffee. If there's like a laundry list of things that come up when people are complaining about a lack of energy in their life, coffee seems to be like the number one over-the-counter resource for trying to hijack that system so they don't have to face the fact that they haven't been sleeping well or whatever deficiencies are going on. I'd love to dig into just what does stimulants do?

Why is it not the really like the best way for people to get energy or improve their energy? And some of the downrange effects that they probably don't understand that are happening if they're just addicted to coffee like I was. Sure so caffeine's a big one and it's funny because caffeine um i mean it is a drug right like a drug will alter your current state and then people be like my coffee's not a drug that dude sounds ridiculous until you say okay no coffee this week and then they're like what the fuck man what i need my coffee what are you talking like all of this anxiety cascade this deprivation this you can't take that from how about even like the level of drug like i know the difference between if someone hands me like a starbucks cup of coffee you're like whoa this is like pure cocaine how did they get away with this

we're just drinking decaf where they're they still get the act of making it and the act of sipping on it and having the warm like you know liquid going down their throat they get the experience of drinking it but there's no caffeine in it and still and i understand this because i don't want to drink decaf coffee in the morning you want caffeinated coffee in the morning like Decaf coffee just feels like a lie. You're like, I'm not doing that. No way. An alcoholic beer.

It's like, what are we doing? Yeah, what are we doing here? Yeah, you could even, if you remember my labs, I'd love to hear kind of like, why does coffee over time, if you're drinking it so much, I even got to a level where i was justifying it and my brain was like it's just a bean and water so i'm kind of hydrating myself helps me go to

the bathroom in the morning what damage could it really be doing to me cocaine is just a plant you know right growing in the jungles of columbia like what could it possibly be wrong too yeah exactly right so yeah so next question. We're good. We're good. No, no, no, no, no. Let's talk about caffeine. This is important. So caffeine, a lot of people, it's quite misunderstood. So caffeine. First of all, the research is fantastic. Beyond like with caffeine in terms of improving athletic performance improving reaction time um improving wakefulness improving uh memory recall uh reducing uh uh perceived fatigue during

exercise and you also just feel a boost like there's mood enhancement on top of all this like caffeine's research to accomplishing all of those things is excellent until it's not. So there is a huge component of tolerance and sensitivity when it comes to stimulants. And the way in which caffeine works is misunderstood by a lot of people. Caffeine acts upon something known as adenosine. So your brain is constantly working to balance two things, excitatory stuff and inhibitory stuff. Excitatory things are what stimulants provide you, the increases of hormones and neurotransmitters that keep you alert, awake, and dialed in. Whereas the inhibitory stuff, that's calm, anti-anxiety, positive, relaxing,

getting ready for sleep kind of stuff. The things you would more associate with a very calm and or fatigued state. Your body, no matter what organ, no matter what system, no matter what you look at, is always trying to find balance. It doesn't like too much of anything, no matter where you look. So your brain's constantly balancing this excitatory and inhibitory state. Adenosine is a neurotransmitter that's inhibitory. So it actually will progressively increase as the day goes on to inhibit excitatory stuff so that you do get more fatigued, you do calm down and you do get a better sleep. Caffeine blunts adenosine receptors. So that's exactly how caffeine works.

Your caffeine, its primary mechanism of action is to take away the receptors that the brain has for adenosine. So adenosine cannot bind to receptors that the brain has for adenosine. So adenosine cannot bind to receptors in the brain, and therefore no fatigue is going to set in, and more wakefulness will currently set in. However, the brain is always doing this balancing act that I'm talking about between excitatory and inhibitory. So your brain actually compensates.

It'll say, okay, Anders is actually taking in a ton of coffee every single day. So I'm going to do two things right now. I'm going to increase total adenosine secretion, and I'm going to increase adenosine receptors in the brain so that he cannot offset this inhibitory stuff that I'm trying to create balance with. So then with more adenosine in the brain and more adenosine receptors creating fatigue, what's the average person going to do to offset that? More and more stimulants. You're just going to take, you go, and that's what everybody does. 100 milligrams of caffeine feels pretty good until you try that 150 hit. And then that feels pretty good until you try that 150 hit. And then that feels pretty good until you try that 200 hit. And then all of a sudden, Anders has given us an example of Starbucks being like a drug at

the beginning of the podcast. People have that drug five times a day and be just fine because they've got so much adenosine and so many adenosine receptors that their brain is in this total complete offset zone where they keep needing stimulants. Like coffee feels good, but at a certain point, you need it just to feel normal. And that's when you know that you're kind of moving from stimulant use to stimulant abuse. Because what happens in this situation is now you've got this inhibitory chemistry in the brain. So when you consume caffeine, your baseline energy is actually lower than it previously was. You started at a normal baseline and a healthy brain chemistry between excitatory inhibitory, but then due to overuse of stimulants, you've now got way too much inhibitory adenosine and adenosine receptors

over time. So now you take caffeine just to get back to what your previous baseline was, and you're not getting the actual performance benefits anymore. What you see in the literature, if you are caffeine sensitive, you will get all the athletic performance power output things that I talked about. But when you are caffeine you are you you don't have a sensitivity to it anymore all you're using it for is to get back to baseline so caffeine has this weird thing where you have energy from it but ultimately it's kind of insidious through the back door because you then become dependent on it because now your new baseline energy is shit due to adenosine activity.

Wow. So like, I mean, but when you say that all stimulants kind of like go that route, because I mean, at least in my experience, or let's say friends I've had who do stimulants, you know, C4 at 8am. Right. Like they just, it just, whether it's, whether it's, you know, Phegin, caffeine, DMAA, whatever it is, it's the same thing. Like eventually when you first take it, you're like, oh man, this is heaven. And then you just need it to be normal.

So are they all similar in that area? They're very similar in your adaptation to them, but similar, I mean, not similar in their mechanism of action. So like modafinil is something that's very popular in common. But it increases dopamine and norepinephrine. So basically increasing a neurotransmitter form of adrenaline hormone, as well as dopamine, which is responsible for motivation, drive, attention span, all those things. But then it also inhib, attention span, all those things. But then it also inhibits the enzymes that break those down. Shark family, I want to take a quick break.

If you are enjoying today's conversation, I want to invite you to come over to rapidhealthreport.com. When you get to rapidhealthreport.com, you will see an area for you to opt in, in which you can see Dan Garner read through my lab work. Now, you know that we've been working at Rapid Health Optimization on programs for optimizing health. Now, what does that actually mean? It means in three parts, we're going to be doing a ton of deep dive into your labs. That means the inside out approach. So we're not going to be guessing your macros. We're not going to be guessing the total calories that you need. We're actually going to be doing all the work to uncover everything that you have going on inside you. Nutrition, supplementation, sleep. And then we're going to go through and analyze your lifestyle. Dr. Andy Galpin is going to build

out a lifestyle protocol based on the severity of your concerns. And then we're going to also build out all the programs that go into that based on the most severe things first. This truly is a world-class program, and we invite you to see step one of this process by going over to rapidhealthreport.com. You can see Dan reading my labs, the nutrition and supplementation that he has recommended that has radically shifted the way that I sleep, the energy that I have during the day, my total testosterone level, and just my ability to trust and have confidence in my health going forward. I really, really hope that you're able to go over to rapidhealthreport.com, watch the video of my labs, and see what is possible. And if it is something that you are interested in, please schedule a call with me on that page. Once again, it's rapidealthreport.com. And let's get back to the show.

So you get increases of chemicals plus an inhibition of the enzyme associated with those chemicals. But then just like caffeine, it's very common for people to titrate up modafinil use over time when you're after that total stimulant effect. Or if they don't titrate up modafinil, lots of times if you, you'll run into these people who will then put modafinil with caffeine and then they'll also do modafinil caffeine and then alpha GPC,

and then they'll do modafinil caffeine, alpha GPC and something else. So it kind of just continues to build if it's not within the one lane. And ultimately like the best thing that people could do is really just to take a break. Yeah. I mean, I feel like that works the best for that people could do is really just to take a break. Yeah. I mean, I feel like that works the best for me is just to like pick a time where I don't have, I always make excuse if I'm working and if I have things due, I'll be like, I

gotta do, I gotta get this done. But like, you need to take a break from everything, go somewhere where you don't have that pressure. That's the best time in my opinion to to come off caffeine or or any you know i've tried modafinil too i love that one but um yeah as well uh yeah there's no way we're not gonna we're gonna subtly beat around the bush of what our favorite uh stimulants are here i'm definitely not not going to tell that on air. Is there a difference between the smart drugs? Every college

kid on campus right now is just free-based Adderall just to be able to stay up all night to learn an entire semester and one night to pass the test. Is there a difference between that and caffeine? Is there a better slash worse?

You guys make me talk about drugs on this podcast a lot. We're very interested in that. Yeah. That's all I can say about it. I don't know scientifically, but I know there's a difference. There's definitely a difference in caffeine. How come when I take Adderall in Vegas, I get to see the people vacuum the floors at 5 a.m. versus caffeine, I can still go to sleep?

Sure. Well, because Adderall is in the methamphetamine category. It's beautiful. Yeah. It's literally in the methamphetamine family. Anders just got the wide eyes. He went, what? Don't tell my wife that.

I found the answer. Anders just got the wide eyes he went what don't tell my wife that I found the answer his wife's listening like hang on I wanted to increase my energy so I listened to this podcast but you were awake at 5am in Vegas on Mac anybody that has seen them vacuum the floors knows that empty feeling where you go

oh how did I get here I shouldn't be here with the vacuum people at all they don't want you seeing this you're supposed to be asleep i've made a terrible mistake yeah yeah yeah yeah so at a raw comparing like adderall and modafinil um adderall is in the methamphetamine family so you would actually it's much more common to report um euphoria feelings of it and that's why a lot of people do use it for party drugs um but that's not i don't advise that at all because it also has some addictive qualities to it whereas modafinil um you really you don't get a state of euphoria all you feel is dialed in you're just

focused ready to rock Modafinil's half-life is also 15 hours. You take it upon waking, you are dialed, focused, and ready to rock all day. Its safety profile is quite excellent and it has very low addictive properties as well. So like between the two, just because people are really into smart drugs and stuff, I would go Modafinil both for use and safety. On a much more over-the-counter level, things like AlphaBrain, does that actually have the kick to it?

Can you create a natural stack of sorts? I know that the AlphaBrain comes in 15 pills when you open that bottle up um we don't really do over the counter on this show is there it's weak it's weak is there like a natural way where you're not having to go get a doctor's prescription and and obviously those do they actually work yeah a, 100% man, they do. Yeah, like combining L-theanine with caffeine is excellent to enhance its neurotransmitter effects, as well as reduce jitteriness and erraticness. L-theanine basically allows you to get the benefits from caffeine without a lot

of the side effects that people don't like, like the jitters or anything like that. So caffeine's great paired with caffeine, basically at a two to one ratio. So if you have 100 milligrams of caffeine, 200 milligrams of theanine would be the way to go 200 milligrams of caffeine, 400 milligrams of theanine, keep rocking and rolling up like that. But theanine is very, very well paired with caffeine for nootropic effects. You can also take theanine just in the evening because it's a precursor for GABA. And GABA is very good for anti anxiety and improving sleep. Lots of times if somebody's lab, which we see a bunch has like way too much melatonin in it because of whatever

reason of a bad supplement. I like putting people just on theanine and lots of times theanine actually works better than melatonin some of these other things for the purpose of calming down before bed. So theanine is a good option. Caffeine is a good option. I just think that you should use it when you need it rather than use it every single day and keep titrating up the dose because you're just not doing yourself any favors in that respect. Alpha GPC is the thing with alpha GPC. It's a neural stimulant. So you will get a nootropic effects from it.

Alpha GPC at 900 milligrams has also been demonstrated to increase natural growth hormone secretion. So there is something to be said about that as well, that growth hormone from baseline increases exponentially when you have it on an empty stomach with alpha GPC. The study was using 900 milligrams. So for growth hormone and nootropic effect, alpha GPC is very good. And honestly, you can kind of stay in that lane, like really alpha GPC, theanine and caffeine with proper use and protocol administration. I really don't think you need to go into a bunch of other stuff but other stuff does exist but i just i

really just don't use it too much right so yeah go ahead how does it compare like you know like i just was looking i see the the alpha brain you guys keep referring to but like how would stuff like that like the cne and alpha gpc and coffee compared to like you know on one side on the other side you have your modafinil like you know would it line up the same not as good like it's like just being real it's like trying to compare creatine to testosterone got it yeah what which one's going to be better for muscle growth yeah they're both excellent they both got a lot of good research behind them, but one's a drug for a reason. It's extremely effective. Got it. Yeah. I've tried Modafinil and like, I liked it because it didn't do anything other than like you said,

dialed me in, you know, if anyone's ever tried like a, like, um, like Ritalin or what's the other Adderall, like Modafinil is like totally different it's just like you're just dialed in you don't feel high you know what i mean yeah and a ton of research has been done by the u.s air force on it as well it's like it's a u.s air force their literature basically tell you everything you need to know about modafinil yeah do they need any like volunteers for those we can just run our own study here yeah yeah there are the overall recommendation for modafinil is basically 100 milligrams for every two hours of sleep missed so if you're used to sleep in eight and then you only slept six 100 milligrams

of modafinil will be advisable if you're used to sleeping uh you know say eight and you only got four then 200 milligrams of modafinil will be advisable basically increases wakefulness it's prescribed legally for um sleep apnea as well as narcolepsy so that's that's used in those situations quite frequently but um for people who use it for nootropic benefits, still offsetting sleep can be a good idea because you're not going to get a lot done if you're really fatigued. But if you did have a good night's sleep and you still want to try modafinil, then just 100 milligrams as a base dosage really early is a good idea. And I say really early because it's half-life is 15 hours. So do not take it later in the day. You will not go to sleep. That's why it's used in the Air Force.

So you can be in a plane for 24 to 48 hours and not crash. Well, is Modafinil in the same schedule of drugs as like Ritalin? I don't think it is. I don't think it's like that. You know, because like Ritalin, those are serious. You know, they're like methamphetamine. But I don't think Modafinil is quite as illegal as scheduled. I don't know what the legal term is, but. No, you are right. But I also don't

know the legal term. There's something to where the chemical properties of it being within the methamphetamine family that makes Adderall more illegal than using modafinil. It's more of a scheduled controlled drug. I don know what they a lawyer would have to talk about that but i do know that that exists what about when it comes to energy what about just like the i know this the more you know this is gonna kill my reputation but the more cardio i do the more energy i have it's like i finally found like if i get tired in the midday, if I go for a quick mile or two-mile walk, I'm back to normal. I don't need a stimulant or anything. What are your thoughts on improving energy from just exercise?

Yeah, exercise is huge. There's kind of two big three branches, I guess we'll say when it comes to energy. Branch one would be lifestyle. Branch two would be cellular energy. And branch three is stimulants and drugs. Those are where most of the conversations are going to go. Lifestyle being your current habits, your sleep, your stress, your environment, the people around you, the fulfillment you get in life, these things all impact energy. As far as cellular energy, the mitochondria comes into play here in a big way. And it's actually been demonstrated in the research that 70 year olds compared to 20 year olds have 75% less mitochondrial capacity than the 20-year-olds.

And when you go, and this is the average population, so these are average health, right? But this is going from 20 years old to 70 years old and having a 75% reduction in mitochondrial capacity. It's incredible how much of an adaptation takes place for people who aren't familiar with the mitochondria they are the producers of ATP which is the diacene triphosphate which is the energy currency of the body which is what gives us energy no matter what we're talking about mitochondria is where that's all produced but a really cool thing is that elderly people can have similar mitochondrial capacity if they continue exercising. That's the key, huh? Yes.

That's the key. So this is actually mitochondria. They are enormously susceptible to something known as hormesis, whereas you apply a stressor to the body that the body can adapt and recover from. So something that would otherwise perhaps be unhealthy, such as training a muscle to complete fatigue, actually ends up creating a beneficial effect through adaptations of the body becoming a stronger version of itself. So as you get older,

there is an absolute truth, mitochondria speaking, about if you don't use it, you lose it. The body is always the ultimate efficiency machine. Why is it going to create an enormous amount of mitochondrial capacity, undergo a very expensive process known as mitochondrial biogenesis, if you're on the couch or at your desk or watching TV? The supply and demand, it doesn't make any sense in that regard. So when you're going out for, say, a mile walk in the in the middle of the day, I'm sure just moving, getting blood flow, getting oxygenated, getting some sunlight on you. These things will all help wake you up and and get the body moving rather than just being in one spot

all the time. The fresh air will help. I think there's also a lot about nature, fresh air, being near water, being near forests that we don't totally understand yet that have a huge amount of benefits for us. But I just think progressive exercise as you continue to get older is so important for energy. I mean, energy is kind of like we didn't mention this at the beginning of the podcast, but energy is like the life force of life. Like if you want to be a better student, if you want to be a better parent, if you want to get better results in the gym, if you want to have more patients, if you want to have a larger sex drive, if you want to be able to read more books, if you want to be able to tackle more things on your bucket list, dude, energy is required for all of these. It's the heart and soul of everything. Fatigue holds everything back. So anytime we can kind of look at these mitochondria and optimize them, they kind of, they go in two branches, the two roles.

We knew about cellular energy for a long time, but it's only in the past about 20 years or so. We've really identified mitochondria to be also a major network for cellular defense systems as well. So protecting the cells. But if you negatively impact the mitochondria's health, its ability to produce energy, as well as its ability to protect you from reactive oxygen species becomes dramatically decreased. If you guys want to get into any of that mitochondria stuff. Let me ask you, because I mean, I know that,

you know, right now our show is mostly like targeted to people our age, trying to stay healthy and, you know, be go getters. But like for, for an athlete, you know,

even for an, you know, we're still athletic. So like the say that I want to power up again, which there's rumors, you know, even for an, you know, we're still athletic. So like let's say that I want to power out again, which there's rumors. You are. There's rumors of that. So like, you know, can I still, can I do like, can I still do cardio? Like, I mean, let's say cardio.

Can I still like, you know, go for walks and then not affect my training that much. If you take meth before walking up to the bar, you're going to be strong no matter what. Right. No, the walks won't affect the training at all. Honestly, all jokes aside, I'm a fan of incorporating walks

even when people are trying to bulk up and get bigger. What is that? So capillarization density. So you do improve blood flow with improved aerobic ability. With improved aerobic ability, you increase your maximum recoverable volume, which will allow you to perform more volume and effectively recover from

to therefore create a greater stimulus. And a greater stimulus will demand a greater adaptation. You're going to get stronger in the direction you want to get stronger in. Aerobic work actually is also very good at stimulating appetite. So even though it sounds counterintuitive, I've got to go on a walk if I'm going to, if I want to gain weight, well, that 20, it can be, it's short. Stan Efferding does 10 minute walks, right? Like it does not have to be a long time. 10 to 30 minutes will dramatically increase your appetite. So you'll be able to get more food, more protein in. I find it really helps my digestion as well. So if I'm trying to get big and strong, especially if I'm

bulking, like if I'm trying to get big and strong, I'm eating big meals. If I eat a big meal and sit down, my digestion is way worse than if I eat a big meal and walk around. Totally. And my sleep is better too. If I eat, do a short walk, and then I start my process to go into bed, sleep is always much better. Last question on the athletes. Like if you were coaching high-end athletes, well, you do, nevermind. So like, but you're, let's say you're coaching high-end power athletes, you know, weightlifters. How often would you have them do something that's maybe cardiovascular in nature or aerobic? Like it doesn't take much, man.

Like 30 minutes a week. And I mean, low intensity. Yeah, I know. Yeah, agreed. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't take, when I say like add in some aerobic work, even during a bulking phase, the people don't kind of consider context. It does not require much to get capillary density, to improve work capacity, to increase maximum recoverable volume,

improve digestion, improve your appetite. These things are all very, very, I mean, even your recovery in between sets, because if you're improving your aerobic base, then your ability to recover in between sets is enhanced. So two minutes, you can either still be sucking wind at the end of two minutes, or you can be recovered, ready to rock and stronger at the end of two minutes. I wanted to ask you, because I definitely want to implement that with my athletes. I haven't like made it a thing you know maybe say hey you guys should go for a while but I've never like put it in their program but now I'm going to because like you know Ryan is at the point of his hard recovery is the hard thing so like um I feel I feel like that would be a good way to encourage quicker

mash when you were deep into powerlifting and setting world records and like really in. Yeah. What was your, was there any like mixed modal conditioning pieces that you did? Because you actually stayed significantly leaner, I think, than many people were you competing against. Sure. Yeah. I was like always ripped, you know, like I think most of 220 pounders like Ed Cole and me like chuck vogelpool we were all super lean so but i did a lot of the work capacity like you know sled drags prowlers like you know i was probably excessive but i needed it to get so i could rest because i would just grind my teeth at night like

saying they can't beat me you know i'd be losing my mind so they're like but um doing the the work helps me you know if i was if i felt myself super high anxiety i would go do sled pulls and it would help me rest but it definitely i was a much i was in much better shape than most powerlifters because come dead deadlift i was completely fine i feel like a lot of powerlifters are beat become dead lift they have no energy left because they're just lazy fat people. So like, um, yeah,

so it was my advantage. Yeah, for sure. And I think too, um, that like those walks we're talking about to improve all of these things that we're talking about. Um,

I think, I think it's best placed if possible, uh, it right in the morning. Yeah. The, the, the whole kind of concept and topic of this episode is

energy you're going to be hard pressed to find anything more important for energy than optimizing your circadian rhythm what time your circadian rhythm is basically not going to be optimized without direct action like the all the artificial light we have us being on our phones us you know all of this stuff. You got to actually take action on your circadian rhythm to get any benefits. And waking up and having a 20 to 30 minute walk upon waking, you get moving to start the day. You get light exposure to start the day. These things set up your hormones and neurotransmitters in a great way that is not just going to set you up for the day.

But it's one of the best things that you can do to set you up for a good sleep. What time? When is the best time exactly to walk in the morning? What would be optimal? Sunrise. Sunrise. To be walking as it's coming up. Exactly.

Yeah. You got to have another kid that wakes up super early in the morning, Mash. What? What'd you say? You got to have another kid that's going to wake up super early in the morning. Damn that. Bad idea. That's a terrible idea.

I've got enough, bro. You need more. That's enough. No way. I did it this morning. That's the only thing of it. I watched Sunrise this morning. It's fantastic.

Going to go to sleep perfectly. I'll just get my ass up and go do it. I'm not going to be a baby. Oh. There's one more thing I want to touch on before leaving. go to sleep perfectly. I'll just get my ass up and go do it. I'm not going to be a baby. There's one more thing I want to touch on before leaving that walk conversation because it's really important. We're setting that circadian rhythm function up for the whole day. So we're going to get benefits from the hormones, neurotransmitters and light exposure upon waking. But since that's setting us up for a better sleep, a lot of people don't know this. Melatonin is the number one antioxidant for mitochondrial repair. So if you have a very

low melatonin secretion at nighttime, you will undergo more mitochondrial damage than necessary. And mitochondrial damage, So it's actually even say it in the research, they call it exhaust. Your mitochondria produce a lot of exhaust, a lot of inflammation, a lot of reactive oxygen species, they produce a lot of stuff when you're producing energy out of there and forcing it to work. It's just like a factory, a factory producing energy, but factories have smoke barreling out of the pipes and there's a dump in the back. There's all kinds of stuff. Mitochondria is just like that. And two big things. Number one, melatonin is actually what goes in there, cleans all that up. So it creates, it cleans up the

cellular debris and repairs mitochondria. But the number two important thing with that is mitochondria will actually reduce ATP production in the presence of inflammation. So it's a protective mechanism of the body because your mitochondria produce inflammation to produce energy. So if you're going into it inflamed, your body looks at the budget and says, I'm going to make this amount of ATP because we already have this much inflammation currently in the system. So that morning walk, we get all of those things that we talked about that benefit strength athletes, plus the neurotransmitters and hormones set up for the day and light exposure, and then the better sleep with the better melatonin, which through the back door improves energy through repairing and cleaning up the mitochondria. It's a huge benefit. Let me ask a

question about the uh melatonin because i it was either you or andy posted a um the research that was conclusive say conclusively stating that melatonin use will not affect your body's own production of said that's me yeah it's so like i was so thankful. I was like, yes. So why wouldn't anybody not take melatonin at night? Because they don't always need it. If they got like excess. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. So like if you're already producing enough melatonin, then you have no reason to take it.

Just like I'm in the argument of if you already have normal to slash good testosterone levels, why would you hop on TRD? You should. Yeah, bad idea. Exactly. So I'm the same mindset of melatonin. I never think that I'm smarter than the body. So if the body's already doing something at a good level,

I think that I'm probably just going to go in there, screw up some feedback loop and thought I was doing something smart. And then I ended up doing something smart. So I like, I typically reserve a melatonin use um uh if somebody has low melatonin for a certain other issue so we can definitely use it in that scenario but uh like in a healthy we'll say in the healthy context i typically only ever use it for jet lag and shift work okay all right yeah but like let's say that somebody was using it like what would be the negative to it just wouldn't do anything would it like if you know

yeah so a couple of things so it's sure it is non-toxic and it isn't antioxidant it actually has a lot of gut health benefits so a lot of people don't know about melatonin it's fascinating yeah so there's a lot of research on it so i'm'm not anti melatonin at all. I am anti prescribing something without a good reason to do so. OK, so, you know, if somebody was already sleeping well, I'm not going to add it for no reason. But something negative that can happen and you will actually see this a lot in the literature is increased jazziness. And the reason is that melatonin also has half lives. So if your body was producing enough melatonin, and then you're also taking melatonin, or you've got an excess, which means there's that many more half lives your melatonin has to go

through, which usually actually just leaks into the next day. So then you're kind of sedated that next day. And what do you do when you're sedated you drink more coffee what happens when you drink more coffee you fuck your sleep up again what happens when you fuck your sleep up again you want to take more melatonin again so in that cycle that just kind of never stops so due to half-lives and primarily due to um uh i actually this is another study I posted where they were testing label claims of melatonin products. And even the same lot number of the same company, there was a four hundred and sixty five percent variation of how much melatonin was in there. Yeah, I saw you. I saw you post that, too. So you could be taking three milligrams and thinking you're taking three, but actually taking 12.

It's different. Yeah. So it's and a lot of people also, but actually taking 12. That's way different. Yeah. So it's, and a lot of people also don't know too, like if there's actually a decent amount of melatonin in pistachios. So melatonin is an antioxidant. Right. And plants actually produce melatonin to protect themselves from the oxidative damage of the sun. So, and you actually see this in plants like like blueberries, like any kind of berry with really thin skin, it has to create a lot

of antioxidants because it has such a thin skin to protect itself from sun damage. So something thick skin, it's not going to have like that orangey purple look, because it's very protected from the sun like a banana, banana being yellow, very, very thick skin. But then you look at like, like purple grapes or blueberries or raisins or whatever, hyper hyper thin skin. So they need to produce a lot of antioxidants in order to protect from sun damage. And lots of times that actually is what gives them their purple color. But pistachios actually have quite a bit of melatonin in them. They're the highest concentration melatonin food

out there. And olive oil also has melatonin in it. So those are kind of two little options a lot of people don't really know about that they can incorporate into their evening routine. Melatonin is also in red wine. And that's because of the great thing that the thin skin, all that. So red wine puts a lot of people to sleep. That's probably one of the reasons that I can do that. That's why I love red wine because it puts me to sleep. Oh, that's why. Right. Yeah. So nothing really bad can happen with melatonin. And that's why it's over the counter. And that's why you can buy a lot of it. Um, and, uh, really drowsiness is going to be the only thing that comes of that. But if somebody needs melatonin to sleep, I think there's a deeper issue that needs to be addressed that you're

currently just masking with melatonin. Totally. Which, you know, a lot of athletes, it's mainly this high anxiety. They're not monitoring their fatigue really well. You know, you're laying in bed thinking about what you're trying to do. So what about, all right, back to the regular human. Energy is like, I love this topic, especially energy systems. How important is it to spend time improving all the different systems? Mainly is there the phosphocreatine, then there's glycolysis, and then there's aerobic, you know, of course, there's a carbohydrate and fat, aerobic metabolism, but like, how important is it for the

common person to spend quality time in all of those energy systems? I think it's very important for health, but can be possibly detrimental for sports performance. Yeah. So like the way you phrased that question was awesome. Cause you said for the average person, I think the average person could really benefit because each of those systems, whether it's your a lactic, your lactic or your aerobic, those all create different adaptations that all have different States of hormesis that all have positive adaptations. So I think a combination, and this is a very health-based combination, do some strength training, do some high-intensity cardio, and do some low-intensity cardio. Right. Exactly. Knock out all three and get the benefits of all three. And that's what's going to be best in the

long run for longevity. But when it comes to sports, as you know, specificity matters. I know. I know. i know i know yeah i know that's why i was clear to say i'm really talking about for me as a old man but like what about can you clarify like uh and he's done a good job when it comes to like lactate lactic acid like what it really is you know but you know he would state that lactate is a beautiful thing and the more i read i have to agree with him. Can you explain that a little bit more? Yeah, I mean, he would definitely do a better job of explaining than me.

Lactate, the couple of things that I've come across in the literature is lactate is actually not a causer of fatigue, like a lot of people point out. That is a myth. There are other things that are much more connected, such as hydrogen ions, inorganic phosphates, these other basically exhaust coming from the mitochondria that ends up with accumulation, exactly metabolic waste. But lactate not being one of them, it's guilty by association rather than actually being guilty because it's also present um lactate can be uh redistributed back to the liver and converted into glucose so your body can actually use lactate as glucose or your heart can use lactate as lactate lactate is one of the is one of the preferred fuel sources of the heart. And the heart is a muscle that does get fit during exercise.

What I found fascinating was how it affects the brain, that lactate can cross the blood-brain barrier, and that there's a good chance that your brain uses lactate more efficiently than just glycogen alone alone is what I'm saying. It's like, because, you know, it's like one less, you know, to break it down and to use it, there's like one less, you know, chemical process that has to take place. So Andy was talking about that. Maybe, you know, that's one of the reasons why exercise seems to be associated with higher

learning levels and especially in the hippocampus where learning takes place. But ever since he told me that like it's blown me away people still talk you know about lactic acid but is there what is lactic is that a thing really is that just some bullshit people talk about you know like it is a thing but it's also bullshit that people talk about i think it makes sense that this stuff is produced in a state of fatigue because like it's, you just kind of think about it. Sometimes I like to zoom out and it's like, okay, what is high intensity exercise associated

with from a DNA level? Like extreme stress, right? We needed to expend this for some reason. Okay. So to offset fatigue, I want as minimal metabolic steps as possible to feed my brain and heart so let me produce this lactate thing that can feed the two most important organs that are going to get me through this stressor and if we need more of it we can convert this stuff into glucose and get it back to the muscle anyways right anyway yeah so i

i mean light eight needs more respect this is my bottom is when it sounds like it's a very good fuel but yeah yeah where does uh like deficiencies and micronutrients come into this for the purpose of overall energy yeah in an enormous way when you look at the metabolic pathways of say um glucose uh just being converted into pyruvate, that's going to give us two ATP, but it also costed us some magnesium. And now that it's pyruvate, or in a hypoxic environment, that'll actually make it lactate. But pyruvate in an oxygen rich environment, then we can utilize B1, B2, B3, B5, and lipoate in order for it to enter the Krebs cycle. Once it's in the Krebs cycle, there's a host of things that we need. We need glutathione,

we need iron, we need copper. And then once we get out of the Krebs cycle, we need magnesium several more times and several more B vitamins through the Krebs cycle as well as I'm kind of seeing it out in my wild brain. And then once you get out of the Krebs cycle, it enters the electron transport chain where we need CoQ10 and selenium and glutathione again. So this whole process, you're going to make ATP in the Krebs cycle. You're going to make ATP just conversion into pyruvate. And then you're going to make the majority of your ATP in the electron transport chain. That entire pathway requires micronutrients. So that's why I always say like calories regulate your body weight.

Macronutrients regulate what you look like at that weight. But micronutrients determine how you feel at that weight. And that feeling comes from energy because it's a life source of freaking anything that we want to accomplish. And whether you want to turn protein, carbs, or fats into energy, they have very, very complicated metabolic pathways to eventually become ATP that are completely dependent upon vitamins and minerals. Yeah. Um, one of these that comes up and I know, I mean, even working with providers, though, all those people have to, or all those guys have to go and train to be like second shift workers. How does like, if you're say a night nurse, night doctor, how are you supposed to overcome that just ridiculous deficit and being completely out of the circadian rhythm to actually feel like you're alive? I mean, that has got to be like the absolute worst thing that you can do for your completely out of the circadian rhythm to actually feel like you're alive.

I mean, that has got to be like the absolute worst thing that you can do for your body on a long-term health level. Yeah. I mean, if you're on night shift, man, I'm such a big believer in the moment you change your perception is the

moment you change your physiology. I think we can actually think ourselves tired. I do. I'm on night shift. So I'm tired. I'm on days. So I'm not tired. Hold on.

When we had our second baby, we had a new nurse that was in the room and I asked her about the night shift and she was just like, so miserable. It's so awful. Like I'm never going to be able to do this. It's like, I just can't get through this process. Like I'm dying. And then a nurse came in the room that had been doing it for like 20 years. She was like, this is so much better. Like I have my whole day that I can just get up and go do things.

I get my sleep in. As soon as I get home. I've got the whole system. And you're like, there's a mindset thing going on here too. Like this one girl hates her life. This lady loves her life. And there's an energy level going on that is completely different between the two of them. Yeah. You can really perception is reality. And I believe that to such a strong extent, like, because I see how strong placebo is in the literature. Placebo does unbelievably insane things. It's crazy what your perception can do to your entire chemistry. So when someone's told they should be tired and when people around them are asking, like, how is that? How's my shift?

Like you just it's you're beaten down over time. Like, man, maybe I should feel like shit. Well, I think about baseball players, too. Like you just, it's, you're beaten down over time. It's like, man, maybe I should feel like shit. Well, I think about baseball players too. Like they're, they're just, they're baseball players, 162 games. And almost all of them are played at seven o'clock at night. So I mean, and now baseball games, like five hours long. So they get done at midnight, something like that. They get home at two after doing whatever they do after the game.

And it's like throw one or two drinks in after the game. And all of a sudden it's like, that is the cocktail for just absolute misery. You're never sleeping well. And you're, you're up all night. They're the least healthy athlete anyway, like baseball players.

Just look at them. They do not look awesome. You know, like they can play 20 years fat. You you can hit dingers i mean yeah if i can blast the home run do what i want i guess yeah so with that with that um with the shift work there's like there's things that you can do um to to kind of you know get your chemistry regulated to that um but i think that the conversation about perception is the first big thing and i would even send them literature like there's literature in evolutionary

biology that humans were actually nocturnal so because we were intelligent enough yeah yeah yeah we were we were intelligent enough to realize that we were defenseless against real threats so we did our shit at night as opposed to during the day and i was like wait that makes sense i've got to ask you a question like last night uh my my wife we were at that world team camp and um her and the kids came up on the weekend and i drove back with them so we left last night because at nighttime i'm wide awake never you do all of your writing and stuff at night if i if i get up early like i'm miserable i can't drive i'm falling asleep at the wheel but i'll drive all night long and i won't get tired until the sun peeps up and when that sun

peeps up i'm straight dracula like I'm like, ah. Why is that? It's an obvious thing. I'm way more awake at nighttime. Is that an evolutionary thing, you think? Well, I think that could be because back in the day, Neanderthals were strong as fuck, and you're a Neanderthal that's not a Neanderthal.

I mean... Your DNA is back there. We shouldn't be front squatting 500 that's what charles pulling it he said i was one generation from walking on my knuckles yeah you're the last the end it's all left dude congratulations i just love nighttime i hate early morning is just like hell it's like you know the stuff i gotta do is completely illegal for me to be awake early in the morning

it's like like i shouldn't be done behavior yeah so it's whatever i love to get more creative at that time is that why you're like you laid in bed Would your head just be spinning of all the things? Oh, yeah. At night time, my brain lights up. It's like a fun park. It just blows up. Colors, thoughts, and ideas. In the morning time, that shit shut down. My brain is black, like flatline.

That's funny. All I want to do is put my head and not talk. We have a rule in my house. I told my wife no questions after 9 p.m you're not going to get a good answer no and i don't any follow-up questions going to be met with a bad attitude yeah i don't want to talk serious is there any research on that on like uh we'll call them'll call them for ease, like early birds and night owls. Is there a real differentiating chemical piece between people that tend to float in either direction in the literature? It's a phenomenal question.

I've not seen it. I just haven't seen it. So I wouldn't be able to properly answer that. I want to look that up because i'm curious like my wife was baffled too like last night driving home i'm like i got home i'm just like shaking i'm so pumped up it's such a good drive if i'd done it in the morning i would wreck for sure so i'm gonna look that up it's a great question if that's a chemistry thing like because is it perception or is it chemistry like if people can

absolutely be one like i'm i'm the opposite i'm the morning even this podcast we're recording this podcast later today i was like fuck i'm gonna be trashed for this podcast like compared to when we normally record it early that's when i feel like i'm i'm really dialed in yeah i can go i can go early and it helps when you have a cup of coffee just right off the bat in the morning and just get to work. That's the sweet spot for me. I think I can talk. In morning time, I like talking

business, serious questions, but definitely at 9 o'clock, I don't want to be talking to my wife about budget. How's the business? I want to be more creative my wife about budget. How did, how's the business? I don't want to, you know, I want to be more creative and let my brain free.

You know, I definitely don't want to be restricted some like business meeting, but I like creativity at night for sure. Yeah. Dan Garner, where can the people find you? People can find me at Dan Garner nutrition on Instagram. You can find my courses at coachgarner.com.

And you can get your blood work at insidetracker.com slash Garner. There it is. Travis Mash. Mashlee.com. We have a new program out. You can go check that out. Yeah, tell us about it. I want to hear about it.

It's the Grim Reaper. Who named that one? Ryan's basically my marketing now, but it's just the new program we've been using with Tim. So there's everything in it. You've got flywheel training, but there's also like if you don't have a flywheel, I tell you what to do instead. So it's got velocity, flywheel, all the things that we do and what you should do if you don't have it. So it's good and throughout it's like a course it really is like a course because i'll have like um real uh articles and or videos talking about snatch bar path you know about energy systems as it pertains to way living

so it's good it'll be um go check it out one more week we'll have the launch pricing and then you know it goes up forever. There it is. Doug Larson. On Instagram, Douglas C. Larson. There you go. I'm Anders Varner at Anders Varner. We are Barbell Shrugged at Barbell underscore Shrugged. Get over to RapidHealthReport.com.

Talking about energy today, Dan Garner somehow reduced my coffee intake by two-thirds. You can see the path that he laid out for me in my lab report over at rapidhealthreport.com. Get in there, schedule a call with me, watch the video, see how we can optimize your health. Friends, we'll see you guys next week.