Barbell Shrugged - Sleep Solutions for Improved Recovery, Fat Loss, and Testosterone Production wAnders Varner, Doug Larson, and Coach Travis Mash Barbell Shrugged #614

Episode Date: November 3, 2021

In this Episode of Barbell Shrugged:   How to down regulate and prepare for sleep The effects of blue light on sleep REM vs Deep Sleep Is meditation effective for improving sleep Why is 8-hours of sleep so important    Connect with our guests:   Anders Varner on Instagram Doug Larson on Instagram Coach Travis Mash on Instagram ———————————————— Diesel Dad Mentorship Application: https://bit.ly/DDMentorshipApp   Diesel Dad Training Programs: http://barbellshrugged.com/dieseldad   Training Programs to Build Muscle: https://bit.ly/34zcGVw   Nutrition Programs to Lose Fat and Build Muscle: https://bit.ly/3eiW8FF   Nutrition and Training Bundles to Save 67%: https://bit.ly/2yaxQxa   Please Support Our Sponsors Organifi - Save 20% using code: “Shrugged” at organifi.com/shrugged   BiOptimizers Probitotics - Save 10% at bioptimizers.com/shrugged   Garage Gym Equipment and Accessories: https://prxperformance.com/discount/BBS5OFF Save 5% using the coupon code “BBS5OFF”

Shrug family, this week on Barbell Shrug, we are talking about some simple sleep solutions and some new studies that have come out talking about how sleep affects testosterone, fat loss, etc. And we're incredibly excited about this because this is one thing with all the clients that we work with in the Diesel Dad Mentorship, I think on average, they start out with us averaging between like five to six hours of sleep per night by the end of their program and working with us we're able to usually get that number almost immediately to the eight hour mark which is really awesome I I know

that it's insanely impactful I'm coming off of having a brand new kid on like week 15, 16 right now, which means we can see the light at the end of the tunnel. We're getting out of the no sleep cave. But before we get into the show today, talking about sleep solutions, I want to thank our sponsors. By Optimizers, I recently received a question from a listener. She wanted to know if it was possible to avoid digestion problems by eating only healthy organic food it's a nice thought but unfortunately

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Target, or Kroger, or any other grocery store nationwide. Check out Real Good Foods. We'd like to welcome them to the sponsorship of this podcast. I know you were able to listen to last week's show talking about how to burn fat and boost testosterone using cold therapy. And this week, I want to bring your attention to completehuman.com forward slash cryo. Evan DeMarco has designed a cold tub that is handmade from reclaimed wood and 100% pure copper and sealed with a natural flaxseed oil for a look and finish that is beyond compare. The self-cooling system and three-stage filtration make the complete human cryo a must-have for any home or gym. It will help you improve testosterone, lose weight, improve immune response, improve your strength gains, improve lymphatic drainage, and you can save 15% by heading over to completehuman.com forward slash cryo, C-R-Y-O, that's completehuman.com forward slash cryo, and use the code shrugged15 to save 15% off both the commercial and the

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Today on Barbell Shrugged, we're talking about sleep. And I have some serious, if N equals one on the importance of sleep, I'm your guy. I am your Huckleberry today because my little dude is now 15 weeks old, which means that for weeks like one through 13, you are so deep in the cave of not sleeping and high level problem solving with your wife without either of you sleeping. And all of a sudden you find yourself like 4 a.m. trying to get a baby to be quiet. Ha! Scary! Ha! But now I'm two weeks into actually sleeping. We've got a 14 week old, a 15 week old, or week 14 and 15 of this little dude being alive in our lives. I'm like, there's like a little, it's like when people die and then they're about to come

back to life, they see like a little light at the end of the tunnel they're like ah i need to go to that that's what i see right now two weeks of sleep has happened in my life and let me tell you something it is radically radically life-shifting it's so good um i also want to get into just some like simple solutions for people to uh improve their sleep. In today's show, we're going to talk about how important it is. Doug, how many hours of sleep do you get a night on average? Do you track it?

I haven't tracked it much lately. I certainly have many times in the past, especially recently when we had Whoop as a sponsor and we had our Whoops on for at least a year, which I love Whoop. But yeah, these days it's usually about, it's about seven, seven and a half hours. And I try to take like a 20 or 30 minute nap. I usually sleep from about 10 till 5.30 is kind of my, my normal. If I go to bed a little bit late, like glad times, I'll call my, my brother lives in Australia and so I have to call him in the evening. So I'll call him at like nine o'clock or 9.30. If to him you know then maybe i'll fall asleep at 10 30 or 11 and then wake up at like six that's like sleeping in is six or maybe 6 30 if i'm like

really pushing it i don't tend to sleep in very much yeah about seven hours seven or sorry seven to seven and a half plus plus a nap probably half every other day, half the days of the week, something like that. Yeah. Naps work really well for me. I'm looking at my tracker, and prior to the four-hour and 32-minute night, that sure was a doozy. But, yeah, when that was all going down,

it was like, or in the first like three months I was averaging like five and a half hours sleep. And yo, it is an absolute beating. And what's been super interesting for me on, uh, kind of the path that I'm on right now, I'm down like 17 pounds. Yeah, getting lean. We have to go be on camera and do all these things coming up here soon. What do you weigh? Low weight, maybe. Yesterday, I weighed 182.8, which is 16 pounds down from when I started, from a week before when the baby was born.

I actually kind of made a commitment that I was going to – when Adelaide was born, I put on 17 pounds of just like had no – we were traveling. We moved across the country. We were on the road all the time, like up to like 10 days a month. And then also some brutal days were just sitting in traffic on the way to LA for multiple hours each way, like eating on the road. Um, and just no sleep training was weird. Um, 17 pounds of just crappy fat human was no fun. Um,

so I wanted to go the other way and be a more skilled human and realize that I had the the knowledge and skill set to allow me to go the other way lose 17 pounds so I pound away from that as far as like a low but this way this one's been very easy I shouldn't say very easy I've just been like more mentally committed to it. There's a real purpose behind it, and there's a big photo shoot that I have to be prepared for, which sounds really weird. That's awesome. I actually have to be a lean ab guy.

I think that's awesome that you're doing it. My sleep right now is the worst. But I'm in school. I don't know that I can do a whole lot about it at this moment, but I'm almost done with, you know, my master's will be completed this semester. Then I'm probably going to take next semester off and then start the PhD right after. But man, I can't, it's killing me right now. Like, you know, I'll be staying up till 5 a.m. Then I'll be staying up until 2 a.m., 4 a.m., and then I'll get a night like last night where I got some sleep. It's just terrible.

You're like super inconsistent. Oh, yeah. It's super inconsistent what time I go to bed, which is the worst thing you could possibly do. I start getting rhythm to just quit. They're just like, I don't know what you're doing. Yeah. You know, Matthew Walker is big on having – he's the guy that wrote Why We Sleep. He's really big on having like a very consistent routine and like if you have a a bad night's sleep like whether it's just like you wake up a lot or whatever it is you're just

really tired the next day he says like just get right back on routine just like wake up at the same time like don't if you don't normally nap don't don't do a nap and then if you you know don't go to bed extra early just get right back onto your normal routine and you know you might be tired for that day but then it won't persist you're not gonna like keep disturbing your sleep like if you if you take a big nap and then also now it's like then you can't fall asleep the next night and then it kind of just carries over to the the coming days that's why i keep choosing wisely what you you know uh open your world up to you know like probably it was my decision. I'm the one who wanted to go back to school.

No one made me. There was not a real point to it other than there's things I wanted to do, but I should have thought more wisely, but here I am. Now I've committed and I'm going to do it. We did a couple of shows with Kirk Parsley, who's a medical doctor, Navy SEAL, sleep expert, fucking rad dude. I don't remember the exact numbers of what I'm about to say, but I believe he said that they've done studies where they put people in caves for weeks at a time. So there's no sunlight.

There's no light cues to let you figure out when you should sleep and when you should wake up and all that. And so once people get in there for a number of days, like they kind of sleep like, you know, but there's no schedule for them. They're just, they're supposed to just sleep when they're tired and wake up when they're not tired. And initially they, they sleep like, you know, nine hours, 10 hours. And then it kind of like after a day or two, it moves to like eight. And then after another couple of days it moves to i think seven and a half it was like seven or seven

and a half was what people settled on once they'd kind of eaten up all their sleep debt and they were actually fully rested then very consistently they only slept for about seven or seven and a half hours a night once once they were kind of normalized those people aren't doing like 10 by 10 back squats and and yeah needing to recover from you know a lot of muscle damage or or you know a very intense practice or whatever it is um so the way the way i kind of thought about that was like seven and a half is baseline and then what i try to do is add an extra hour per training session it makes sense so if you lift weights one time you try to do is add an extra hour per training session. That makes sense. So if you lift weights one time, you try to do eight and a half hours.

If you have daily doubles, then you bump it to nine and a half hours. All easier said than done. It's very idealistic, especially for people that have little kids and all that. But for me, that's been a good model to try to follow. That makes total sense. Anecdotally, I settled on like just slightly over seven but i've never had the opportunity so i've been i was setting my alarm and this is like partial partially like the the sleep thing that i was in was really just about like supporting ashton of

like trying to get up as early as possible and get the kid out on a walk and like trying to, uh, not have her have to wake up and give her like a couple hours, uh, like where I just handled the mornings, but I haven't woken up to an alarm in two weeks. And I, I set it instead of for like 5 30 AM to get the kid up and get outside, um, for seven30 and not a single morning in the last two weeks have I met that alarm. I still find that I wake up right about 7 o'clock, which gets me to roughly seven, seven and a half hours of actual sleep, not the laying in bed and time you wake up in the middle of the night that you don't even know um but i think that that's been like a an interesting piece to my own um side of this

is like i i thought that i'd have these like nine hour nights coming up and coming out of this to like catch up but my body is really settled in somewhere in the seven to seven and a half range and it feels amazing but i was i was actually really hoping that it'd be like the 7 30 alarm would go off and i'd be like oh i still could have slept for another hour but i've never i haven't even gotten there um i we've been we've been talking to dan garner a lot lately he posted something the other day we were talking about just like hormone health um with those guys with him and Galpin. If you haven't listened to that show, you need to go back.

I don't remember the exact number of its show's title, How to Increase Your Testosterone by 300%. One of my favorite shows we've done in a long time, by the way. That show was fucking rad. Yeah, and we're actually going through there. What are we getting tested? I have blood work today. We're getting stool samples, urinalysis, saliva, blood blood work and hair follicles which i gotta ask him i don't know how to do

hair follicles because i'm super bald um how do they do that you start growing that out oh my gosh armpit hair like yeah you're like you're like all pubes that's all you're getting i mean i'm not gonna it in the testing kit. I'm just going to send it to him in an envelope. He's like, Anders has really curly hair. This is really weird. We're going through the entire process for something that we're working with them and building. It's going to be part of our mentorship program, which is rad.

But the importance of having that extended seven to nine-hour sleep on your testosterone levels, and I read the paper that he mentioned in his Instagram post about increasing your testosterone levels 15% for each additional hour that you're able to sleep. So if you're typically, and it's because just testosterone is produced in your sleep. So if you're not sleeping, there's a really high chance that you're tired, you have poor outlook on life, you decrease libido, decrease muscle mass and recovery, and all of those are like the exact symptoms as well as having low testosterone or low testosterone symptoms. I think that's also particularly true with REM sleep specifically, and REM sleep tends to be the second half of the night more so than the first half of the night.

And so if you miss a couple hours, you miss a higher percentage than then you know the first four stages of non-REM sleep yeah and it but I read that paper and it was really interesting to like it's almost like there's like a systems checklist and when we talked to Allison from the army um it was uh is that right did i get that name right uh breaker i believe it is yeah yeah um it was it was really cool because she was taught we mentioned how there it there's like a checklist that your body goes through every single night and it just needs enough time to go in and heal everything that uh your your your body as a system needs to go in and heal everything that your body as a system needs to go through for general maintenance. And it all happens while you're sleeping. But if you get six hours of sleep, it's going to be really hard to reach your fat loss goals because you just aren't doing the

entire systems checklist every single night. You're not getting through the process of healing. You're not entering the day with enough energy, with enough testosterone, with enough just general maintenance done overnight to be able to heal and actually be able to go into a day with the amount of energy and mindset that you need to continue to improve in whatever you're doing. That paper was really interesting. The 15%, that's a big number. Just to be able to go sleep an extra hour, that's a huge number,

especially if you're in the six-hour range. It's actually like 30% to 45%. Wait, sorry, what was 30% to 45%? What did you say? Well, for each additional hour, it being an increase in 15% of testosterone level. So if you're in the if you're someone that sleeps six hours a night on average you're up against it like that's it's potentially 30 percent um i got an increase in 30 percent that just you're not getting on a daily basis to

no doubt to recover it's a similar percent as I mentioned Matt Walker earlier today. I heard him say that for each additional hour of sleep a female gets, her sexual interest goes up 14%. For all you husbands out there, let your wife sleep a little bit extra. I know about this.

I know about this. Currently, with the new baby. Oh, yeah. I told my wife that. She was like, see? Like, okay, you got the science

backing up the fact that you need some more rest. I'm putting the babies to bed from now on, but you go into bed, babe. I got this. I got you. I actually,

Matt, you said you were doing a bunch of research right now on blue lights, which I think is like part of the system of how people you i'd actually match you said you were doing a bunch of research right now on blue lights which i think is like part of the system of how um people get better at going to sleep like that's i've even noticed that you lay in bed and turn your phone on your body can't handle that stress yeah and everyone does it.

Everyone wants to check that Instagram before they go to bed. What's what's, what are all the papers saying that you're, you're checking out on, on blue light? Well, before the show, what I did is,

you know, put down some notes so I can make sure we went over them because like, you know, it's not my area of study. So I want to make sure I could give our audience some good stuff. But the reason Harvard did this awesome study and before they did it what they did is they looked at the anecdotal evidence of people who worked like night shift and then these people were like you know they were getting diabetes they're getting heart disease

they're they're obese and so what they did you know they did the study and these people their blood sugar levels increased you know throwing them in're pre-diabetic, their levels of leptin went down, which is what makes you feel full, you know, so you're eating, you never feel full, and then ghrelin, g-h-r-e-l-i-n, it went up, so it made you hungry, so, like, you're screwed, you're gonna, you're gonna gain weight, your testosterone is going to plummet. And then blue light is worse, which sucks. What it's going to do is it's going to suppress melatonin, which is why we start, you know, that's the process. It's how we start to get tired. And then you have your REM and deep sleeps.

And so the blue light, any exposure, like, you you know it's like six and a half hours of exposure to blue light exposure it's like doubles exposure to like normal light and so like not only is it bad like you know because light alone here's the thing even light like not blue light like any little light screws you up blue light is is double that and so like you cannot you know the blue light it it's the worst possible thing you can do uh it you shouldn't have any light you should really darken you should have darked out blacked out curtains you should not have a night light for kids it's a terrible idea try to get them comfortable with like you know darkness not to be afraid of it yeah but but blue light is even twice as worse.

So you got to – it's about – they recommend 1.5 hours before you go to sleep that there should be no blue light at all. That means no TV. What are you going to do in the evening? What are people going to do? Read books? Are you crazy? Talk to their wife?

Talk to each other um do you guys wear eye masks um you got me doing that when we were on the road yeah but i don't do it at my house oh really i sleep so much better with those things yeah when we're when we're traveling you i saw you doing it and i was like man i gotta get one of those because that looks so awesome. But I don't do it at the house. I'm going to try that. I really need to, like, focus on – there's a couple things I want to do.

I want to – because I'm really close to being done with this whole thing. Like, I'm less than two months away from, like, having my first break from this madness. But I definitely want to do the strips that covers my mouth so I'll nose breathe. Oh, wow. And then I want to do the eye covers. And so I've already started using blue light glasses, which is helping some.

But even the glasses, you still need to shut it down before an hour. Do you have any apnea when you sleep, Mash? Oh, dude, I'm sure. You know, like, a doctor, they recommend that you get a sleep test. You would know because Drew would wake you up with a pillow upside your head for

something like you're about to be choking to death in the middle of your night. But then, girl, you know, women will actually, you know, they will acclimate and they will get used to it. And so, yeah, I do. Definitely if I turn on my back, it's a wrap. I'm going to smoke. If I turn on my side, you know, I'm stressed.

I still have apnea, but it's not so pronounced. I'm going to be smoking and waking people up. The apnea thing when it comes to hormone levels is also a really gnarly thing because so many people have it, especially as they get older. And everybody, if you're walking around, you're 20, 30, 40 pounds overweight, you have, it's like this like insanely vicious cycle of like everything you do because you're overweight, um, ends up being a negative in your life. Like all of the way that your body adjusts to the problems that you've caused with, um, carrying around the extra weight ends up being this like very cyclical problem, uh,

that keeps arising. And like, when you think about sleep, just as a whole, it's, it's the built in guaranteed parasympathetic state, unless you have apnea and you don't actually ever go to sleep because as soon as your body loosens up you can't breathe and you start choking and then even if you're super muscular and jack this doesn't matter yeah it's just if you have that you never actually go into that deep sleep and and and get into the parasympathetic state that your body needs to get into in order to repair itself. It's that actually just that general like framework for understanding sleep, I think

is super important. It's just that's your body's time to not be stressed out at all. And then you just take that time and try choking yourself in the middle of it. It's not very stress relieving at all. Your body's never off and it doesn't have time to go back to just chilling out for eight hours and getting healthy at night. My dad had that problem where he was having like – it was some absurd number. I forget what it was, but it was like 22 events per minute or something like that. Like he would like just continually choke.

I don't know if choke's the right term, but like he wouldn't be able to breathe normal and he would wake up. And so he would never fall into like a particularly deep sleep. And then he got a CPAP machine and all of a sudden was able to sleep normal for a couple nights in a row. I talked to him after he had a couple of good nights sleep. He was like, I have so much more energy. I thought I was just supposed to be tired all day, every day, no matter what. I'm in my 60s or whatever it is. I'm just older.

You're just tired when you're older i had no idea that like my sleep was that disrupted and that i could feel so awake after having that that you know instant gratification fix with a c-pap can you buy a c-pap um can you buy one of those without having to go to get you know a sleep test i'd imagine you could because like like some people, like for me, like, I mean, I just don't have the time nor the desire to go. I mean, I'm positive I have sleep apnea. I mean, look at my neck. Anybody whose neck is big. Yeah. Here's to all the bodybuilders out there who like say, well, I'm not overweight.

You know how they get classified as obesity. Here's the thing. It's still a good chance. It's still a good chance. It's still a good chance you're going to have sleep apnea. You're still going to be taking years off your life. You know, your life expectancy is still going down. You know, you don't see too many fat old people. It's just not the way it is.

So, like, I would definitely recommend, you know, even if you're ripped, you should probably look into, you know, sleep tests or look into sleep tests or just go ahead and assume that you have it. I'm definitely thinking about getting a CPAP, but I want to do one thing at a time. I don't want to do everything at the same time. I wanted to do the strips. I wanted to do the blackout, the eye covers.

Then I probably want to get a CPAP machine and add that until I lose weight and start to feel a little bit better. It's generally not awful. Oh, wear push-ups? Yeah. No.

I might do both. I don't feel like those have... Didn't that get... I remember when those things came out, everybody was wearing them in sports. And then some smart person did all the research and was like, do you really think that opening your nose a tenth of a centimeter is really doing that much?

Let's find out. Do you know how the streams work? When I have seasonal allergies, like springtime, and I'm super congested, the worst part about having allergies in the spring for me is being congested, and then I can't breathe, and so I'm just constantly – have to like be awake to breathe through my mouth because i can't breathe through my nose and if i wear those little nose strips i can breathe normal like it's you put it on all of a sudden you can breathe normal and you just fucking fall asleep like they're they're incredible if you are super congested if you're not then you're not really there's you're not

fixing a problem and so they're not going to do anything but if you are congested and like you just can't breathe through your nose like you know you plug one side of your nose try to breathe in and nothing happens if you're like that those things are magic i have the gnarliest allergies in the spring and i they were yeah yeah i just remember persistently shown that they were yeah i remember when they got really popular when I was younger in sports. Obviously, I wasn't dialed into the latest research of breathing at the time. I only wore it because I thought they were cool. Pro athletes were doing it, so I was like, this has got to be rad. Then everybody just stopped doing it.

How much are you breathing through your mouth versus through your nose? You're going to be breathing through your mouth a lot. I feel like. Yeah. Yeah. Like breathing through your mouth at nighttime is there's issues with that, but like during sports, like you kind of have to breathe through your mouth at some level. Like if you're breathing hard.

Sure. Yeah. I think they just didn't work for that reason, you know, for the sports reason, but to put them on at nighttime. Yeah. Consistently. It shows that they work. Now, I'm going to get

both. I'll get that and the strips. Did you be all taped up going to bed? Man, I guess. That's right. Put your mouth over your nose. I'm asked. When this is over, I'd actually love to... I don't... I know a very minimal amount

the difference between REM sleep and deep sleep um it was the first time i had really even been uh like that information had been brought up was when we were working with whoop and you get multiple readings like one is light sleep which is super important uh rem sleep and then there then there's an awake amount of time that you probably don't even know that you're actually awake during the night, and then deep sleep. What is the big differences between REM sleep and deep sleep? I mean, like, Doug, I guess you can go ahead.

I'm just, you know, so far I've just been, what I've been studying is simply like the causes of blue light, you know, but, you know, I know REM sleep is where you're going to, you're going to have

the rapid eye movement, hence the word REM. And so there's going to be, you know, dreams. And I used to think, I think we used to find that REM sleep was, you know, was where it all went down. But be, you know, dreams. And I used to think, I think we used to find that REM sleep was, you know, was where it all went down. But now, you know, here even, you know, obviously, you know, first time something comes out, it's never correct.

But evidently deep sleep is where most of the recovery is happening. Yeah. And I always thought that was during REM sleep. And there's always a pretty large discrepancy in any of the sleep readings that I get. Like the deep sleep is much shorter and the REM sleep is a much longer period for me. I'm like looking at my actual numbers. I don't actually know exactly how those two play together. We've got to get Al Breger back on. Well, I mean, here's what I'm seeing.

The body repairs and regrows tissues, like it's recovery. You're going to build bones and muscles and strengthen the immune system. And as you get older, you're going to get less. This is going to happen as you get older because obviously things stop appearing. It sucks. You really want to fight. You're really going to want to fight to be in this sleep. The actual numbers that I have, I average 22% of my sleep or 25% of my sleep is

REM sleep and only 10% is the deep sleep. Yeah. That doesn't, that's not the combo you want. Yeah. And then 55% of it on average over the last 30 days, like the 30 day rolling average is 56% is light sleep. That obviously gets into a little bit of like the first three months of,

of babiness, which is gonna throw things off a lot but um i i always thought that REM sleep was the the big one that you really wanted um me too and and now it's it's the deep sleep is the the big the big one that you're actually chasing yeah REM sleep is like you know you're actually more active you know so your your heart rate is starting to increase and so uh that's when dreams happen but it's also when you know you're starting to you know have less repair but it's still it's still important but it's not it's not where it goes down you know when you if somebody wakes you up during the deep sleep

that's when you feel all discombobulated and like you don't know where you are and like uh because you're so far your brain is like shut down so much and your heart rate is at its lowest so that's where you want to be so that's the problem with you know blue light or or any light at all is it's really hard because your brain is going to be alert that's the problem is that your brain has to shut down you know as much as possible to get into deep sleep. So if there's any light at all, it's active. It's like, what is this? That's the whole point.

During the day, you're alert. So when there's light, you're becoming alert so your brain can never shut down. Yeah, it says you want to have your deep sleep numbers to be equal in total amount of time as your REM sleep. Knowing that, of course, your light sleep time is going to be like the majority, like slightly over half of the total amount of time that you're sleeping. But if you can get your, if you are tracking it, your REM and deep sleep should be about the same each night, which mine are not even close. And I think it's because that deep sleep thing happens,

like Doug was saying, all the way towards the end of your sleep cycle. So if you're not in REM sleep, yes, deep sleep happens early, REM sleep happens late. Right before you wake up. Yeah. That's why people dream more in the morning on average. And the less sleep you get, the faster you enter REM sleep.

Awesome. So you skip it. Yeah. You skip deep sleep. As far as I know as well, like deep sleep is the primary stage where you do like memory consolidation and learning. Right. And then REM sleep, you you know not really related to sports and recovery and fitness and all that like it's a like uh your emotional regulation happens more

during REM sleep I have no idea how they measure that but I believe that's the case awesome is that when like you know like uh dopamine you know serotonin levels are going to be regulated I guess I don't know I don't know the physiology there. How in the hell would they know? That's awesome, yeah. So at least you don't, you're not an emotional basket case. So maybe that's why I'm able to somewhat keep it together,

even though I am losing my mind. I can definitely feel like, you know, I'm definitely more apt to get sick, you know, right in this period of my life because I'm not sleeping, not repairing, and like no desire to work out. I know there's been studies that show that REM sleep is correlated to all-cause mortality. The less REM sleep you get, the more likely you are to die.

Awesome. Again, I don't remember exactly how all that's – I haven't actually read those studies, but that's just what I've heard again, mostly from Matt Walker, the guy that wrote that book. Yeah. We got to have it back on. From a more practical standpoint, something that was really interesting that I've experienced here just lately was, you know, I had three kids in three years. And so back to back to back, I had a little, you know, a baby or toddler in the house for many, many years. And so back to back to back, I had a little, you know, a baby or toddler in the house for many,

many years. And so there's a period there where, you know, your kid's not a baby. And so it's not like in a onesie thing where there's no blankets. Once your kid has blankets, but they're still like, you know, two years old or whatever they are, you know, in the middle of night, if they get cold, they might not be able to like fix their blanket and pull it back on top of them. So they just lay there cold. And so I left my house for, you know, for many years, like a little bit warmer than I would prefer to sleep. And then I kind of just got used to it. And then just here, you know, recently my kids are a little bit older and they can all,

you know, make adjustments in the middle of the night. I was like, I need to, I need to like turn the temperature down in my house. So I program, program my thermostat to be like, you know, five degrees cooler. And then, and now I sleep so much better in the middle of the night. I used to wake up and I'd be like sweating and like throwing blankets off me and like it would, it would disturb my sleep. But now that it's cooler, I sleep much, much better. Do you guys, you guys very specifically set your house at a particular temperature that

you feel is optimal for your sleep? That's the fight, man. With my wife, you know, she's naturally, you know, cold, and so she's wanting to be 74, and I need 68. It's way too hot. I know. I'm like, let's go 68,

because I'm telling her. Yeah, that's what I said about 68. Yeah, because you can always put more blankets on, you know, like, what am I, I can, once I'm naked, that's all I can do, you know. Yeah. I think the, if anybody's ever lived in san diego or just socal in general where and September and you don't have an air conditioning, you do not fall asleep until midnight. You just cannot get your body. You just lay there with all these fans on you trying to cool down enough just to be able to go to sleep

but it's like really is like the two worst months of sleep um until we put like a mini split in our in our townhouse um we you literally just lay there and sweat all night long and it's so gross because air conditioning just doesn't exist but But to answer your question, Doug, about the temperature, we're like pretty both like 70 degree people. But I know that the very first thing that I do when I go to a hotel is crank that thing down to like 58 and make it as cold as I possibly can make it in that tiny little room because you can like add all the blankets you want

and you sleep so well the uh i want to say i was huberman you mentioned him earlier in a show that he did recently about um sleep i think he was talking about how the i was actually it might have been on rogan they were talking about how um sticking your leg out or a hand handout is actually really like the cheat code for cooling your body off. It's not about having the blanket on like your core, uh, like on your trunk in your, like over your body, as much as the ability to have your feet in your hands out. Cause there are much better regulator of, of temperature and, and being able to, um, calm you down. And they're applying some of that. I know I'm, I'm botching probably pieces calm you down and they're applying some of that i know i'm

botching probably pieces of this but they're applying that to like fighters and people that are playing sports at a really high level to get their nervous system to calm down during breaks because if you can like stick somebody's hand into ice it's way better than putting the ice pack like on the back of their head or things like that so there's there's a lot of um temperature regulation is like a really big piece of of the the sleep equation we used to have things like that oh yeah yeah for the same just anecdotally we felt you know i would you know if i was like you know freaking out in a workout i would run cold water over my wrist, and it would calm me down.

There you go. Anecdotes are the most important thing. It's the beginning. Something interesting that I've tried lately is I bought a weighted blanket. I bought a weighted blanket for one of my kids, and then I was like, I'm going to try this for myself. So I bought a weighted blanket. I can't seem to sleep a full night with it like I just I have a hard time following this

a harder time falling asleep with it on and I don't by the time middle of night comes around like for some reason I just like don't want to do anymore and I kick it off but uh for naps if I do like a 30 minute nap under a weighted blanket I feel like I once i fall asleep i feel like i sleep so much deeper like i i don't know if that's actually technically deeper like i'd get more deep sleep if you measured it with some type of device but like i just feel like i just sleep heavy and i kind of just sink into my bed and it's just like i feel like i'm recovering better for some reason total anecdote pure feeling i have no idea if any of that's true but i but i really like it subjectively i like it our Subjectively, I like it.

How important are naps? I think it depends how much sleep you're getting at night and what your quality of sleep is like. Some people don't like naps. It fucks them up. I've always done well with naps. I take a nap and I wake up and then the rest of the day I feel much better. I have way more energy and I can tell the days where I'm tired and I don't take a nap.

I just drag. For me, naps have always worked really well. I can nap. I'm a power nap person. Yeah. I can nap. I can literally lay my head down on this desk and I'll be done. Maybe you need to do less.

That's funny. I've learned a valuable lesson for sure uh yeah i haven't taken the done the nap thing because i really feel like it's it's almost like taking drinking a cup of coffee at like three o'clock in the afternoon you're just gonna be buzzed you're gonna be awake for so long because you just um your body recovers too quickly or too well during that like two hours if it's a power nap then that's cool i just don't do well with power naps i'm like give me three hours i'll be back to real life here soon oh yeah how long do you nap um it depends on how much sleep i got the night before and what i have going on like the other day i knew i was going to go watch the ufc and be out so well

past midnight which is much later than i normally stay up. I slept for like two hours before just to make sure I could make it through the night and wake up the next day still at like 5.30 or 6 and not be exhausted. Most normal days, 20 or 30 minutes usually. Did you see where Andy's

fighters didn't do too well, but Laura, one of his girl fighters, yeah, Lauren, she got beat. What she said on instagram after was the coolest thing i've ever seen and i just hope so many people listen she took 100 full responsibility she didn't give ownership of it she didn't give any excuses she just say the girl is better than me you know if you want to know what i could have done better to win the fight, nothing that nice. She said, that girl was better than me. I'm like, man, I'm like, man, if there's any weightlifting girl out there,

they should listen to this because it's always an excuse of why they got beat. I hate that. Yeah, just own that mess. If you never own it, you'll never do anything you need to do to overcome it. Yeah, there's no shame in losing to Valentina Shevchenko. She's fucking awesome. No, man. She's so good. to uh overcome it yeah there's no shame in losing to valentina shevchenko she's fucking awesome i remember one time when uh when tim sylvia lost against randy couture the first thing that tim said if i remember correctly he got on the mic with rogan or whoever it was and goes oh i guess

my back isn't all the way healed yet or something like that and just like a whole stadium just goes boom i think it caught him off guard that he got booed so so aggressively and was like oh oh Just like a whole stadium just goes, boo. Nobody will do that shit. I think it caught him off guard that he got booed so aggressively and was like, oh, oh, oh, I shouldn't say that. Oh, this guy's really great. Just wasn't my night. Yeah. He was a tune instantly.

Shut your mouth. Yeah. My bad. Galpin, we talked to Galpin on Monday, and he said that he goes, all she said she wanted to do was getting a a big fist fight in the middle of a cage with this girl but she was so good that she couldn't even fight her like you went into the fight to fight somebody but the girl was so good you weren't even capable of fighting back and you you're like the two best in the in the world at that weight class

yeah girl's just that much better yeah Yeah. You might be in the top two. The painful Sunday morning. Oh, yeah, man. How about his other dude? He got his orbital bone cracked. When you crack your orbital bone because of someone else's fist, you're in a lot of pain the next day. Oh, damn.

I didn't know that. He just posted it in your eye socket. You don't think about your orbital bone caving in on you too much unless you're in the fight game. Yeah. All right, last thing about fighting. I watched two bare-knuckle girls fight, and that was the most fit of all the fighting I've ever watched in my life.

That was the most vicious thing I've ever seen. Both their faces. Nobody won that fight, I'm going to tell you. Dude, they were mauled. They looked like a hamburger, their faces. And then they're all hugging. And before the fight, they were both really pretty, you know? Pretty girls. They were going in this bare knuckle.

And when they were done, they looked like aliens. I'm like, anyway. That's all I i want to say about that but god tough ladies tough ladies go back back on the topic of sleep here so uh we mentioned rem sleep and you know how not getting enough rem sleep isn't good for a variety of things all all-cause mortality, et cetera. I know that alcohol and or THC both disrupt REM sleep specifically. And so for anyone out there that just has a drink before they go to bed or they smoke or whatever before they go to bed, edibles, all that stuff that's getting more and more popular and more and more legal on the THC side,

apparently it's not that great for REM sleep. And so if it's a chronic thing, it's not that great for REM sleep. And so if it's a chronic thing, then I think that could cause some problems. And then I think caffeine is probably in there as well. That's something that disrupts sleep for many, many people. Tell me about the THC thing because you just listened to some show or read some paper on THC.

What was the deep dive on that? You were telling me about it. Why you're doing Sober October, which is, I think the show will be posted in October. Probably. Yeah, I was thinking about doing Sober October and trying to get away from any non-essential supplements, we'll say. So, caffeine's on that list, alcohol, THC, thc etc just to see how i feel with just eating regular whole food and trying to get as much sleep as possible and working out and not having all these kind of quote-unquote extra things but i'm actually not 100 sure about the thc thing you just mentioned was there a was there a specific thing there that you were thinking

about i think you were listening to the huberman lab podcast where matt walker was on it and they specifically mentioned thc um and i'm so sad i think i i'm trying to remember what what the impetus was for you telling me about the thc specifically or like what study they were talking about um because uh i mean Because I would be lying if I didn't think that THC was like a phenomenal supplement for sleep, especially in the second hour after the happy, hungry, sleepy part. After you get to the hunger, there's only one thing to do. Well, he did say that it does seem to help people fall asleep which i think a lot of people take it for that reason like it does help you just feel relaxed and it's easier to fall asleep

maybe you potentially have you know if you're you're stressed or worried or have anxiety or whatever maybe it kind of eases some of that and you're just able to be more present and just fall asleep but the again the long term uh-term, but the later in the night when you're supposed to be getting more REM sleep, apparently it blunts that in some capacity. Again, I don't have numbers behind any of that stuff, but that made me think twice about having drinks or taking any THC before going to bed. Yeah, because one of the specific strains is designed to make you sleepy and go to bed. That's why I always,

or what I always thought was like the purpose of the indica was to go to sleep. That's why you take it. The sativa keeps you awake. That's what I'm looking. There are actually some studies out there that would say quite the opposite. Is that, you know, that actually there's been some with looking at CBD and THC that there might be benefits, you know.

So, like, and then when people stop, then they have trouble falling asleep. And so, I don't know, you know, like, I think I would dare say, thank God, that the vote is still out, which is bad. But here's a direct study saying that it actually helps sleep quite a bit, especially deep sleep, which is where repair and learning and all that. So I'm not telling people to go out there and do that yet, but I'm saying that the vote is still out. You know, it appears. Yeah. I suppose if you're,

if you're reducing the amount of REM sleep you get, then kind of like by default, you're going to have more non REM sleep, which of some of, some of which is considered sleep. So I can see how that would be higher as a result. Right. Um, yeah,

I'm not going to read anything else. Cause I just want to believe that last study. I just read. I love the internet. Look at all these thousands of articles that believe the same thing I do. Don't worry about the other thousands. Those ones are for idiots. Those ones don't count. The methods are just not good.

Did you do a thesis with your master's? I did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, working on my thesis now and then you know i'm doing my literature review and like it's like how much more can i read about fatigue like it's endless it's like you know i have now over a hundred different pieces of research that i'm you know looking through because i'm studying fatigue is what i'm doing is i'm looking at um how you can monitor fatigue with velocity and with a jump mat and just a natural you know questionnaire so this is that's what it is that is what got me just you know looking into just yesterday about sleep and about blue light and so because blue light is a big car you know kids nowadays seem to be more fatigued. And so the, you know,

it's what we're looking at. And one of the big reasons is social media and blue and or blue light. The social media has got, you know, now it's like three new, like, I guess, what would you say? But three new, I don't know, not diseases, but you know, bad things that they're related to, which is like, obviously now people are getting bullied. They're, you know, they're comparing themselves to other people, you know, so it's, yeah, it's pretty bad nowadays.

Jonathan Haidt talks a lot about that specifically. And he was saying that especially for uh like pre-teen females like you know the 10 10 to 12 um ish old like junior high type girls like having social media at that age like as a result of having it like guys tend to bully each other physically in person and girls tend to do it kind of more indirectly like social status and playing games and other they're just a little bit different on average and so now with social media they have the opportunity to to bully other girls like 24 hours a day and they can't they kind of can't get away from it as a result since cell phones and or smartphones and social media have been on the rise like suicide and self-harm like cutting and things

like that for for that specific population has like it's like 300 what it was just like a decade ago something like that absolutely you know yeah you can't get away i mean i'm you know when i'm now that i'm seeing it i'm starting to get some solid you know evidence i'm definitely seeing a huge up and down. And I can see it on their face. And so now what I'm doing is when I see – when they register like a drop in velocity or a drop in like – they're the same. They're definitely correlated.

When they have a bad jump day at the beginning, their velocity is lower. And then I go – then when it does, it leads me to look at their questionnaire. And so then when I see a problem, now I'm setting them down. And now here in the last few weeks, I have referred at least three of my athletes to mental health care. You know, not saying, you're just saying, you know, not that they're crazy. It's just that they're dealing with something very stressful and they're not dealing with it well.

And so, like, man, for coaches listening, this is sleep. I know that we're talking about sleep, but mental health is a real issue. And it's, like, it's affecting performance. But more importantly, man, these are just kids, you know, something I had to remind myself of lately. They're just kids. They need help. And so, anyway.

Yeah, but you say it's mental health. No, I was just and so yeah yeah you say it's mental health oh no i was gonna say you say it's mental health as if like it's all not a system that's all connected like if you're not recovering at night if you're not sleeping well your anxiety's up your cortisol's up stress levels just immediately you're already operating at like 80 of your capacity when it comes to stress and then just a simple little thing is going to trigger that to a nine to a 10, which immediately if you're hanging out at those, those like percentages of,

of a maximum stress level on a daily basis and you're fighting for lack of better terms, some Instagram drama battle or whatever it is, you're, you're fighting something that's not actually solvable. So it's just more anxiety and more stress stacked on top of it. Like, I think that's one of the biggest, like frameworks that I actually think about when it comes to getting good sleep at night. Like,

the framework of just like, give your body the eight, the seven to nine hours it needs to actually reset. Like to fully be parasympathetic and not be stressed out about something um like the anytime i've i've been really stressed out about something i know because i i will wake up very early in the morning and it's the first thing that'll pop into my brain whether it's business whether it's family whether it and it's the first thing that'll pop into my brain, whether it's business, whether it's family, whether it's, it's whatever it is, that first thought, that first thought that comes out of your brain is typically some sort of stressful event. If you're not sleeping well, some sort of things that is like very heightened on the stress side of things that

there's a ton of anxiety built around and the stories built around whatever, whatever that thing is for kids. It's social media for kids. It's fitting in like fitting in as a super important thing when you're, when you're, when you're going through high school, college, I would say also fit in as much as possible,

but yeah, it's definitely like they're calling it's actually labeling it, I would say off social media. I try not to fit in as much as possible. Yeah, it's definitely like they're calling it, it's actually labeling it, giving it social media fatigue. Now there's actually a social media fatigue scale. It's like how brutal this stuff is, man. It's crazy. It's a real thing. Stay off social media. It's not real.

Like what you're seeing is not real. Don't compare yourself to these airbrushed photos that you're seeing on social media it's crazy oh yeah i think envy drives instagram more than any other emotion it's like oh yeah just you're just looking at other people's highlight reels like you just and you're comparing yourselves to their your worst to their best it's just even if you are consciously aware of that, it's still tough not to do. Yeah. Being on,

being on there is just, if you do it too much, it's going to wear on you for sure. Dude, the fear of missing out. Can you believe that's a thing? That's a real label. It's like,

that is a, that is a real diagnosis now. Um, is fear of missing out. F O M O. F O M O. Yeah. Yeah.

So, information overload. That would be the one i think that might keep people awake and not let them get into sleep is you know you get your brain you know i love to read too at nighttime i love to read like you know i wish if you could read if i were to read anything i would read a book not my phone and i would read fiction not like i'll read like a scientific journal before i go to bed what in the hell am i thinking that's the worst then i'm laying there thinking about like all the possibilities because i'm reading it but yeah get off the mess yeah anyway well i think that that's uh kind of like a good way to wrap it up of just some basic principles of like how to go to sleep like you mentioned what was the time uh amount that they recommend to have blue light out of your

eyes? Well, they recommend setting an alarm that reminds you to like shut it down two to three hours before bedtime. I would say two hours is like more reasonable, you know, but like, you know,

two to three hours is what you want to do before you go to bed. Yeah. You know, find a better light. You know, if you like to read before you go to bed. Find a better light. If you like to read in bed, try getting a lamp that doesn't emit blue lights. It's the red or orange lamps. They work well. Learn to dim.

Find out if you can dim the brightness of your electronic devices to night mode if you have to read at all. And then try an app. I guess there's apps out there that if you need to use these devices before bed, you know, they will actually help reduce the blue light emissions. So try to find an app that does it for you. And then, you know, improve your sleeping environment. So if there's, if there are light sources in your bedroom, you know, that you can't dim or turn off,

try using an eye mask that Doug talked about to block the motion. Those are the recommendations. Yeah. I actually, I would say I've been doing this for the better part of five years now in which I think many people struggle. I'm one of them to have like any consistent sort of meditation routine in their daily lives. It's really because it's hard to just set aside 10 to 20 minutes for anything, whether it's going for a walk or training every single day, but like finding a time during the day for you to get away into a quiet place and actually calm your brain down. It's just, it's a really challenging process unless you're putting an extraordinary amount of value behind that 20 minutes. It's just, it's a really challenging process unless you're putting an extraordinary amount of value behind that, that 20 minutes. Um, it's just challenging.

So what I've been doing, I would say nightly, or at least consciously trying to do nightly, um, in the last 10 minutes before I go to bed, um, is trying to do some sort of meditation of just calming my breath down, like actually trying to enter into sleep in a place where I'm, I'm, I'm, my brain isn't just racing around and then I just hit the end of the day cause I'm too tired and I fall asleep, but actually trying to like very consciously with a lot of intention, sit there and lay on my back and just breathe really, really well heading into sleep. If you don't own any of your day, if you work in an office or you're working around computers like we are all day long trying to write and we're on calls and all this stuff,

I would say almost 99% of the people work in front of computers most of the day now, you likely are dealing with just like a lot of very passive stress and you don't own most of your day. So if there's a piece of your day that you are guaranteed to own, it's likely like the 10 minutes before you fall asleep. You've already said goodnight to your wife or your husband, whoever it is, and the next step is just going to bed. You can just lay on your back and try to breathe really well and slow your breath down as much as possible.

If you want to actually think about something, I do like a little practice of like trying to remember everything I did that day, which actually is really, really hard to do. And not only just the things that I did, but maybe how I felt about doing them. And I've been able to create a very consistent practice where I do it almost nightly of just consciously, the house is quiet, everything's dark. It's just me. And I can actually sit there and have some sort of meditation practice i've kind of combined that with with sauna use which i haven't done so much in the last couple weeks but what i like to do is is go in my sauna don't take a book don't take

don't take my phone or any electronics no audio anything and just sit there and, and relax, meditate in silence for 20 or 30 minutes all, all the while, you know, heating up and sweating in the sauna. And then, uh, from what I understand, like getting out of the sauna and then, you know, take a shower or whatever. And then getting in bed like, because you were, you were so hot, your, your body's just dumping heat and it helps you kind of get into that, that cooler, cooler you know physically cooler state that you need to be in to sleep really deeply yeah and i feel like it's not feel like i've also the opposite for the morning time like if you wake up you take a cold shower and then you get out and then your body starts like ramping up its own endogenous ability to heat itself up then you you wake up

much easier i mean the cold water will wake you up and then also the aftermath of of your body naturally trying to heat itself up will also wake you up the aftermath freezing i need to tell you know i i should definitely work on doing that i gotta figure out ways to like you know go to sleep and then to wake up like i've got myself into a mess here so it's gonna survive two more months, two more months. As I keep telling myself, I think you can do the,

you can do the meditation thing where you're just, you know, kind of working through your day. Like Andrew was talking about, um, or you also can do like a journaling piece where like you just brain dump. Here's all the things that are on my mind. If you can just get all that out where it's,

it's written down, you're not going to forget about whatever's important for tomorrow, whatever it is. I think that can also help you fall asleep. There's a guy named Alon Katan who runs this company called the school of life. And he says that he, he thinks in some ways insomnia is like your body's revenge for not being

able to think through things throughout the day. So if you're just constantly distracted, you're you, you work if you're just constantly distracted, you work and you're on social media and you have no downtime where you're bored and you're just alone with your own thoughts, like you're in your car listening to podcasts and whatever it is, these are all good things. But if you have no quiet time to just think

and process your own thoughts throughout the day, then you go to sleep and you're laying there in silence and all of a sudden your mind starts racing for all the thoughts that didn't get processed throughout the day and then you can't fall asleep dude i have it's almost irrational to the point where i'm at now like if i go out back and get in my hot tub i have a really tough time sitting there in silence like i'll grab i mean i will just grab my phone and i won't even realize i've done it till i've done it and i'm like it's becoming irrational like um yeah what are you doing sit there in silence and i'm not comfortable you know in silence now because of too much information but a lot of things are going to change too much sure it's super hard it's a it's challenging thing. I think that that like boredom is probably built into our bodies in a way that we don't ever actually pay enough attention to.

I got a new toy for you guys, by the way. Just FYI. More things to keep our attention. Oh, you got the flywheel thing going? Yeah. Can you see it over there in the corner? My new Kratos. No, I got the kratos from uh christophan so oh it is so sick anyway how much space does it take up in that office of yours not much at all like it's small

and like let me show you again hold on let's see if you see it's like for everybody listening on the way to work right now see how pretty it is It's got a wooden panel and then it connects to the, so, you know, everybody knows a flywheel where you just kind of do squats, but it's got a connection to the, to the power rack where I can do like, you know,

rows presses. Like it's, this thing is, is sick. And so I want to mess with it for, I'll make sure by the time you guys get here, but you come visit again, I'll be ready to, to show it to you. But, um, it's really it. I'll make sure by the time you guys get here, if I can come visit again, I'll be ready to show it to you.

But it's really cool. Shout out to Chris Duffin for letting me try this out for him. Yeah. I did a bunch of research with it too, so I'm excited. Yeah, it's probably a really good way to standardize a bunch of stuff for your research. Yeah, my goal is like – just to give you a little foreshadow – is I've been doing that RSI test on the daily,

which is a depth jump. They do a 45 centimeter depth jump. And then I have definitely like shown where some of my athletes are not as good as others in ground contact time. So that means they're not as elastic. And so my goal is to see how this thing will affect that. And if it can, then it just changed the careers

of a lot of weightlifters in the world. So we'll see. I hope so. Love it. Coach Travis Mash, where can the people find you? Mashlead.com or go to Instagram,

Mashlead Performance. Hit me up on LinkedIn too. I still love that place. You're on there a little less now. A little less is because shit, something's got to give, man. Doug Larson. I'm on Instagram. Douglas E. Larson.

I'm Anders Varner at Anders Varner. We are barbell shrug to barbell underscore shrug. Get over to dieseldadmentorship.com. We're all the busy dads that want to lose between 20 and 40 pounds by supporting natural testosterone production without drugs, doctors, or destructive diets. And for everybody that lives near Walmart, which is probably you if you live in the United States, make sure you head over there. Get into the performance nutrition section.

My face is on the box of three beautiful products. Partnership with our good friends over at New Vitality. And you can download the Pro-T 21-Day Challenge. Lose 9 pounds in 21 days, and it's all free. So get in the form situation section in the pharmacy friends. We'll see you guys next week.