Barbell Shrugged - Stress Less, Win More. Lessons From One of The World’s Best Ultra-Endurance Runners, Courtney Dauwalter — Muscle Maven Radio Episode #17

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey everybody, welcome to Muscle Maven Radio. I'm your host, Ashley Van Houten. Who is ready to feel inspired and lazy at the same time? Who's ready to hear yours truly, the Muscle Maven, fangirl super hard over an athlete? Okay, who's ready to hear some incredible stories of resilience, fortitude, failure and success and positive mental mindset about

Starting point is 00:00:27 basically superhuman obstacles. Sounds like a fun way to spend an hour, right? Okay. Today, I am chatting with ultra endurance runner, Courtney DeWalter. She is an incredibly chill and happy person for someone whose job is to run 100, 200 plus mile races without stopping, without sleeping. You may have read about her in the New York Times. You may have heard her podcast with Joe Rogan. Her most notable race last year was the. Just take a second. She crushed the second place finisher who was a man by the way, by more than 10 hours. What? Okay. If it's possible, her training and diet and recovery and mindset game is even crazier than the races she runs because in a world where even recreational athletes like myself are biohacking their way to optimal performance

Starting point is 00:01:32 with supplements, infrared saunas, crazy diets, special equipment, all that stuff that we get to play with. Courtney, who is literally one of the world's best ultra runners, including both men and women, does not have a coach. She does not have a specific training plan. She doesn't really do much in the way of supplementation, recovery. She doesn't get massages, anything like that. She eats whatever she wants, which often means nachos and beer and candy. And she basically just trains based on intuition. Like she goes outside and starts running and sees how she feels. And before you say, okay, she might just be a genetic freak, right? Like a freak of nature. Okay. That may be because she hasn't actually done any testing. Like she hasn't done any tests of her VO2 max or muscle fibers, anything like that. But her previous coaches, when she was

Starting point is 00:02:20 in high school, her family, they can all attest that she certainly had an aptitude for running and sport, but her success did not come overnight. She was not immediately amazing at everything. It came as a result of pursuing and nurturing a passion with just a positive, resilient attitude. So whether you're a runner or not, I think that we can all learn a little something from her approach of stressing less and having more fun. Even if you are at the top level of your sport, I cannot remember the last time I was as excited to speak to somebody. I personally have run a couple of marathons, mostly just to knock them off the list and say that I did them.

Starting point is 00:03:00 And I am a terrible long distance runner. That's not what my body is made for. And those experiences were really grueling for me, but they also taught me a lot. They really did teach me a lot about myself. And I'm just so interested in ultra endurance racing, like seeing people run through the desert and run for days and just seeing what the human body is capable of, like what we can do and accomplish and put ourselves through. So I've been a big fan of Courtney for a while. I love watching her races and honestly, it doesn't hurt that she's beating dudes in a sport because let's be honest, that's rare. And I think she deserves a lot of high fives for that. So I really hope you enjoyed

Starting point is 00:03:41 the episode. I hope that listening to Courtney puts you in a good mood and maybe even inspires you to go out for a run. However many miles you're feeling, two or 200, it's all good. Please enjoy my interview with Courtney DeWalter. All right, Courtney, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Yeah, thank you. Good morning. We're not in the same room, but I have to say that I'm a little bit starstruck, to be honest, because I'm a big fan of yours. And I just, I don't know, you're like somebody who's accomplished things that kind of seem like superhuman. So I'm just very, very excited to pick your brain. I really appreciate you taking the

Starting point is 00:04:19 time. Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. So I've watched, I've listened to your Joe Rogan interview. I've watched this documentary on YouTube, The Source. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I've watched that a couple times. And I guess my first question to you is, what is more exhausting, running 100 miles without stopping or answering questions in an interview format? Like, which one takes more out of you? Oh, they're both great in their own way. I mean, I love obviously getting out on the trails and, you know, the silence and just being in the mountains and being, you know, with yourself

Starting point is 00:04:58 and your own brain. But I also really love meeting people and interacting and getting to chat about all sorts of different things. So they both have pros and cons. Right. I mean, I guess it is a little bit easier to talk about things that you love. Right. I mean, this is you get to do what you love for a living. So that's kind of a pretty sweet deal. Yeah. Oh, I feel so lucky. I have so many questions.

Starting point is 00:05:25 I feel like a lot of them are going to be about food. So I'm pre-warning. My brain is all the time. But first, let's talk about you just finished a race pretty recently, right? That's correct. Yeah. Okay. Where was that?

Starting point is 00:05:38 It was on an island called Madeira, which is off the coast of Portugal. Okay. called Madeira, which is off the coast of Portugal. And it was the Madeira Island Ultra Trail, 115 kilometers, which it was super cool. The island isn't very big. So we actually, 115 kilometers basically took us from one end of the island to the other. So it was a point to point course up and over this huge, like, um, it's got all these mountains through the middle of it. So tons of climbing and, and ocean views. And it was just stunning.

Starting point is 00:06:12 That's cool. How, uh, how did the race go for you? It was good. Yeah, it was tough. It's, uh, I mean, still kind of early season. Um, so it was like just kind of still getting the gears going and getting things tuned up for the summer racing, I guess. Okay. I guess that does lead to another question I had in terms of like, how many races are you trying to do a year? And is there, I guess you just mentioned that,

Starting point is 00:06:38 but is there sort of a season, like there are months where you're going to do a couple and then you've kind of got like a recovery period? How does that work? Yeah. I mean, technically I guess the season, um, it goes with the calendar year. So people consider it to be, you know, like the 2019 season started in January and goes through December. And usually people will, um, like build up for those first couple of months of the calendar year and then get into some racing. And oftentimes the big ones, like people's goal races, are usually in the summer or the fall, just to have enough time to get your body and brain ready. But yeah, I like to race a lot.

Starting point is 00:07:19 So if I could race every weekend, I would. But I've been told that that's not the smartest choice. Yeah, but I mean, you seem to have been doing pretty well in your career by being intuitive about how you feel and racing and training how you feel any particular day, right? Yeah, I'm trying. Definitely just listening to signals that my legs give me, but also your brain can get tired, so being in tune to that or your lungs. Sometimes after a race, my lungs just feel tired of breathing hard, so they need a little break. So do you, do you like the idea of redoing any races? I don't know if you have done that or is that, is it like you've done it and now you want to like move on to the next one? Uh, I like redoing races. I, I'm really not picky because, um, I don't know these ultra races,

Starting point is 00:08:18 they're never the exact same, even if it's being run on the same course, like you've done it before the day is going to be totally different just based on conditions, based on, you know, who's there and based on how like you as an individual show up to it and where you're at just mentally, physically, you know, emotionally. So they never feel the exact same, even if you're like, I've run this trail 10 times already. It's always new on race day. Right. Do you, uh, so, I mean, this one you just finished, I mean, I, it sounds really ridiculous coming out of my mouth, but it's kind of like a shorter one. Hey, I'm like, that sounds like, I mean, a walk in the park for you. Like, is that, I guess it's just a different challenge. Like when you have a shorter race and I guess, you know, there's all the elevation and there's the climate and all that

Starting point is 00:09:08 stuff that, that makes different challenges, completely different races. But do you, do you enjoy the shorter ones as much? Do you find them as much of a challenge? How do you feel about that? Yeah, for sure. You, I mean, all of them are a challenge and you can always push yourself harder to, you know, make it more of a challenge. Um, I in general, like the longer ones, so a hundred miles plus, but 115 kilometers. And that one took about 15 hours. That was like a pretty solid, um, day and like a great amount of time to be out there enjoying it. and, and to have, you know, the ups and downs that those longer ultras often do. So it was, it was awesome. And it was cool to be done before a whole day had passed. And, uh, we'd actually go to school that night. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:00 And then to have that be, you know, a build up towards some of the hundred mile races this year that will definitely take more like a full 24 hours. So I think it's good to to have variety in it. OK, one of the races, obviously, that you that you're really well known for is the Moab, which you won by like 10 hours, beating the second place guy by 10 hours. And I have to ask this, you seem like a very nice person who is not a showboat at all. But there's got to be like a little bit of like an extra twinge of accomplishment when you not only beat all the women, but all the men too. Like the next person was 10 hours behind you and it was a dude like that has to feel a little extra good right come on I mean for me everyone out there is just people you know I don't care if it's a man or a woman and um in these ultras you're often like it's against yourself really and making sure you put everything out there on the day so uh there was no easing off the gas pedal on that one

Starting point is 00:11:08 because I wanted to make sure when I finished, I didn't wonder like, what if, like, could I have done that faster? Could I have, you know, been more efficient through some of those sections? So it was foot on the gas the whole time and not really worrying about or caring about necessarily what was happening in the rest

Starting point is 00:11:28 of the race. Okay. Well, you're a better person than me because I'd be like, yeah, in your face, I beat you dudes. With endurance, it's always been a little bit different. The playing field's a little bit more level maybe with endurance stuff, because it's less about just that sort of inherent physical strength that men tend to just have a little bit of a leg up on us in that regard. And when it's more about mental strength and endurance, it's a little bit more, yeah, level playing field, I guess. Yeah, for sure. I mean, as the races get longer, you know, 100 miles plus, your muscle mass doesn't play into it as much. In a 50 mile race, the men are still, you know, really, really strong on those results. And it'll take, like, there's definitely women who could compete and maybe overall win a competitive 50 mile race. But it's a little bit tougher, I think, than the really long stuff, like 100 or 200 miles. Okay, well, if you aren't going to be smug about the fact that you beat a bunch of dudes,

Starting point is 00:12:36 I will be smug for you just because it makes me, I don't know, I just got a little extra excited over it. Yeah, perfect. But this concept of kind of just competing against yourself, which I hear, obviously, with a lot of successful people in a lot of sports, and especially ones that are really, the mental game is really important. It's being able to kind of be aware of yourself and pay attention to your body. And you're only kind of competing with what you are capable of doing and not thinking too much about your competitors. But were you always like that? Like even when you were younger and you were doing, um, you know, track or like competing in high school, like, was that something that you kind of always were able to get your head around or did you have to learn to sort of not pay attention to everybody else and pay more attention

Starting point is 00:13:21 to what you're doing? Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, I was competitive growing up and, um, played tons of sports and, you know, race cross country and track and, and then it's, uh, I think it's a lot easier to, um, like learn how to push yourself harder by competing with the people around you, you know, because you're in a 5k or 4k race for cross country in Minnesota. And, and your goal is to get to the finish line before these other people are getting to it, you know, so it was easy to learn how to push really hard by competing competing directly. And then as I got into, um, I, as I got older and got into this longer stuff, then it started to flip over of like, uh, learning to compete more with myself and like push myself as hard as possible, no matter who was around or what was happening. So I think it was a process

Starting point is 00:14:23 for sure. Like, um, I think when I was younger, it was just pretty straightforward, like beat the person next to you kind of, you know? And there must still be like, I would imagine when you're running a race where you are, you know, seven, eight, nine hours ahead of everybody else versus you've got somebody kind of breathing down your neck, or maybe you're not in first place that does that. I'm sure that affects the way that your, your brain's working when you're running. Right. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit. I try not to, you know, like, like I was saying, um, foot on the gas, no matter what. So like if I'm getting, you know, into the last 10 miles of a race and it's wide open behind me and there's no worries

Starting point is 00:15:05 of being passed, then I still want to have my foot on the gas as hard as possible because then it's, you know, seeing what I can do and seeing how fast I can finish this thing. Like treating it the same, no matter if there's someone behind me or not, or someone in front of me, you know, like, it's always just full on effort. So we I mentioned earlier, you talk a lot about how your training is really kind of intuitive. Like you just you get outside every day, you go for a run. And then depending on how your lungs feel, your legs feel how your brain feels, that kind of dictates maybe how far you're going to go. But what about like the week leading up to a big race? Do you do anything differently? Do you try to like eat a bit more, sleep a bit more?

Starting point is 00:15:51 Are there any like superstitious things? Like you always eat the same things. Like what's your week leading up to a race look like? Yeah. It depends a lot on what the goal of the race is. So some races I'll do as more training. And then the week leading into it is just business as usual. Showing up to the race, maybe a little more tired than I'd prefer, but using that purposefully. The intention then is to just drain the legs and get in a really long effort at the end of a week that's already been full of normal amount of training. And then if it's a race where it's a goal to show up to it as fresh as possible, then the week coming in, I'm going to definitely ease back on the amount of time I'm out running,

Starting point is 00:16:41 the miles that I'm doing, and really sleep and food don't change no matter what. That's just always going to be the same. So nothing crazy on that front. Okay. Do you sleep pretty well generally? Like, are you an early riser? Do you have trouble sleeping? I sleep okay. Yeah, I love morning. So I get up by about 6am just to sip coffee and like let the day start slowly. I love that. And do you, your training, your runs, do they happen usually in the morning or any time of day? Is there a time of day that feels better for you to be working out? Yeah, I like the mornings. But my schedule right now, I'm lucky it's super flexible. So it'll usually be a morning run and then maybe another in the afternoon just to get out and shake it out a bit more, get some more miles. So I don't mind any time of day, but I prefer to get my day going with coffee first and then a good run. Coffee is the most important.

Starting point is 00:17:50 Coffee is definitely the most important. Your favorite kind or are you not picky? I'm not picky at all. Okay. The stuff with caffeine. Yeah, there you go. Not the only thing you're picky about. Yeah, exactly. I'm asking so many specific questions,

Starting point is 00:18:07 just because I know that, and I guess I speak for myself, but I love to kind of like hear the details and like peek into the world of somebody who's super successful. Not that we can necessarily like apply any of this to our own training. Maybe we can, maybe we can't. I just know that people kind of like love to, to hear the details of like what your, your life is like. So that's why I'm asking so many specific things. Like the next one is, do you run, do you ever run with music? Do you, do you mostly run by yourself? Uh, mostly I run by myself on the weekdays. Um, sometimes my afternoon run will be with my husband or with a friend. And then on the weekends, usually I'll try and meet up with people. And as far as music goes, I don't run with music on the trails.

Starting point is 00:18:54 I'm in Colorado, so I just don't think it's that safe to be with music on trails in these mountains. But if I know when I leave my house, like the intention is that I'm just going to stick on the roads or the bike path, then maybe depending on the day or how I'm feeling, I might bring music or not. Okay. I wanted to ask about like meditation and mindfulness stuff, but it seems like if you're running as many hours as you are a week, and oftentimes by yourself, and oftentimes without music, I mean, that's got to be, I would imagine it has to be a hugely like meditative process for you. Just so much time with my thoughts. Yeah. Like I've run a couple marathons. This is like back in the day and a completely recreational

Starting point is 00:19:43 fun thing. And it was not for me. I learned a lot from the process. But when I was training, I'm like, damn, I got I have to have music in my ears. Because if it's just my thoughts, and like hearing my own breathing and paying attention to how tired I am, like this is not gonna work. So I did it. Yeah, I were like really heavily on the music. Yeah, that's got to be huge for you. You're spending so much time just you and yourself. Yeah, I don't know if it's made my jokes better or worse. But I mean, do you ever get like tired out there just being alone with your thoughts? Or is it just like this is this is my goal. And this is what it you know, and I love being out here. Like, I would imagine you've got to be very present. Like you said, you're also watching out for like

Starting point is 00:20:24 cougars and things are going to come. So I mean, I would imagine you've got to be very present. Like you said, you're also watching out for like cougars and things that are going to come in. So I mean, I would imagine it's a very, it's a good exercise in being present. Yeah, yeah. And I think, like, I can, it seems, I can turn it off and like, stop thinking, you know, so there's definitely runs where I'll be, you know, just like mulling everything over and like, you know, solving the world's problems as I'm running and just thinking a ton. But I feel like there's also runs

Starting point is 00:20:55 where I can just turn it off and just enjoy, you know, the steps that I'm taking and the views and the trees and, you know, like the just surroundings where it's not so much thinking and being stuck with your thoughts like that. So like switching back and forth between those two is useful. It's also useful to do that, I think, in races, like to be able to tune in and out of different parts of your brain and, you know, be able to quiet the noise for a bit if you need to. But also you can use that as a distraction to like, you know, be able to quiet the noise for a bit if you need to. But also you can use that as a distraction to like, you know,

Starting point is 00:21:28 think of things going on in your life and what you want to do about them or whatever, you know. All right. Just a quick interruption, guys, to tell you about my show sponsor. And I know you guys roll your eyes when sponsorship ads come up. But guess what? Podcasts are free and the hosts need to eat. And I eat you guys roll your eyes when sponsorship ads come up, but guess what? Podcasts are free and the hosts need to eat and I eat a lot. So thank goodness for our sponsors who believe that we're doing good things and want to support us in doing that.

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Starting point is 00:23:09 create your own account, check out what you want and get a 15% discount when you use the code MAVEN15. So do that. And if you get something and try it out, hit me up on Instagram at the Muscle Maven, tag me tag train highlights. We can see what you got. That's it. Thank you again to highlight. And once more, that code is Maven 15, go get a discount on some sexy ass high performance workout gear. Yeah. And I mean, I guess it has been proven time and again, that, that, that sort of, um, allowing your brain to kind of be distracted by what you're doing physically can sometimes open it up to like answering questions or solving problems that you have. Like a lot of people have this like in the shower, they come up with their best ideas because they're sort of distracted.

Starting point is 00:23:54 Yeah, yeah. You know, and I mean, I think anybody who's run, who's a runner or is trained in that way, like I have experiences with that too, where I'll have runs where I just feel like I'm kind of floating and you're in this, people talk about that flow state where everything just feels good. You're not even like feeling your own breath or your feet hitting the pavement. You just feel good. And then there are times where like every single step is like, can I, can I get through this? And like, yeah, you have that too, right? Still. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's just recognizing it for what it is. Like if you're having one of those days where every, you know, you, it feels like you're fighting for every quarter mile, even, you know, it's like swimming through pudding or

Starting point is 00:24:38 whatever analogy you want to call it. Then just acknowledging like, okay, it's one of those, like buckle in because this is beneficial. It's just not going to feel great today and that's okay. So I asked you about the week leading up to a race. What about the week after a super long race? What do you do? Usually a lot of sitting, eating, eating and drinking and, uh, then some walks. Usually by midweek I'll be walking and slow jogs just around the neighborhood or whatever. And, uh, by the end of the week, I've, I'm often recovered enough to get out for some, uh, shorter runs. So you've usually got like a week where you're

Starting point is 00:25:26 mildly relaxing and just like eating and going for walks after like a 200 mile race. And then a week later you're like, and I'm, I'm better now. Good. Yeah. Yeah. But then it's like building back in slowly. Usually there's something coming on the calendar, you know, so then it's eyes forward. You know, we just did this thing, reflect on how it went and what could go better. And then eyes forward on like, all right, what's the next thing? And what's the like, how much time do we have to build until that happens? Okay. Do you do anything like, do you get regular massages? Do you do like any like acupuncture, cupping or any of that stuff? None of that. No. Do you? I mean, not really, but I'm not running hundreds of miles. But I mean, if I could afford it, I would get a, I would get like a sports massage every three days because it just feels good. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't feel a strong

Starting point is 00:26:26 need for it ever. And so I feel like that's something I want to like save for that time when I really need it, you know? Yeah, exactly. It's like, it's going to be like a last resort sometime where something's happened where, you know, my system is all out of whack and I just am trying all of those things suddenly. That makes sense. It's like, don't overkill on the like recovery methods if you don't feel like you need them. I mean, that makes sense. Like, I do feel like there is sort of a subculture in the like fitness and performance world. And it goes along with the whole like biohacking community where people are like let's do every single thing and throw every single supplement and and practice and hack at our performance to just make sure that it's the best where i mean 90 of that stuff may not be doing

Starting point is 00:27:14 anything it may just be making you mentally feel like you're you're doing something but yeah which is good too yeah yeah sure exactly if it works but it's like you're taking sort of the minimalist approach like don't do anything until i need it. Or like a natural approach where you're like, I'm just going to do everything. And if something sticks, then cool. Yeah. Yeah. Different, lots of different ways, methods to the madness. And I think whatever works for people, I think is great, you know? So do you get a lot of muscle soreness when you're training I know I mean usually I would imagine for some of your longer races by the end of them you're feeling a little bit beaten up but do you like generally on like a week-to-week basis are you feeling like pretty

Starting point is 00:27:56 good pretty recovered pretty fresh yeah definitely I mean each day maybe, maybe the day will feel hard by the end of the run or by the end of the runs, you know. But Bennett usually feels pretty recovered by the next day to put in the efforts again. So, yeah, I mean, knock on wood, always just trying to stay healthy and keep my body happy. So, yeah, I'm knocking on wood over here here too, but I got to ask these questions. Thank you. Yeah. I feel like you're jinxing it. Everything's perfect. But what about like, you have any, at this point, sort of any like injuries or specific kind of areas that you need to pay

Starting point is 00:28:47 attention to? Or are you like pretty much joint wise, muscle wise, like you're pretty much good to go? Uh, fairly good to go. And if it's not, I'm, I'm, uh, just going to pretend it is always, you know, like not get caught up on the little things. And, uh, and then when they, you know, are starting to flash warning signs at me to take the time off and, and, uh, make sure to rest. But all, uh, I use sometimes a foam roller, which feels just pretty good as a way to, you know, do a quick stretch basically I view it as. Um, yeah, but otherwise things, things right now are healthy and good. And, um, and so then it's like, okay, this is working. Like let's not change anything drastically. Right. Yeah. I guess that makes sense. I mean, that is one question. I think

Starting point is 00:29:39 Joe Rogan asked you this too. And I, I kind of feel like I got to bring it up again. Cause I'm just curious, like, first of all, super endurance racers don't tend to be super young people, right? Like we look at a lot of sports where it's like you max out when you're like 22, 23. But that's not really the case with endurance runners. Like people tend to be really kind of hitting their stride in their 30s and even their 40s. Is that that's correct, right? Yeah, which is so cool. Yeah, it's very cool. It like gives a lot of us hope that it's like, oh, we can be in sort of our mid 30s and still be like, pursuing serious competition, right? Because with people who are sports fans, we look at all like, you know,

Starting point is 00:30:15 gymnasts or football players, and we're like, and you are a decade younger than me and like, on your way out because right? Yeah. But there is something and why do you think that is because it's not like endurance racing is easier on your body so why do you think that older people tend to kind of be better at it um i'm not sure i think patience has a lot to do with these ultra marathons so maybe just you know gaining years of experience and knowledge of life makes you a little more patient in general. I also think it's a lot about like accumulated, you know, it's this huge buildup in miles, you're not gonna go from couch to 100 mile in, in a month, or even six months, you know, you've got to like build up slowly and just like create this base of

Starting point is 00:31:06 endurance on your legs and your whole body to get it ready for some of those longer efforts. And so maybe that requires, you know, that you're a little bit older before you've got the like solid base below you in order to start pushing pushing hard I also think though that it's starting to turn over a little bit more where people are becoming more aware that these ultras are a thing and so there's more and more people you know coming straight out of college and deciding to jump into these ultra marathons which is cool cool for the sport. It's making, you know, the 50ks then are really fast now because these college kids, maybe they're even runners from college are coming out ready to rumble and they can throw down speed on a 50k, which is cool. You know,

Starting point is 00:32:02 it's like turning over some of the the sport and the competition a little bit right but I guess like you're saying it is there is sort of like almost a muscle maturity and a mental maturity that comes with you know being maybe a decade more into the sport and just having run the miles run the races like know what you're getting yourself into like that kind of that's a bit of an advantage yeah I mean that's what I'm going to tell myself because I'm in my mid-30s. You're like, yeah, I mean, let's use whatever advantages you have, right? Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm not messed up yet.

Starting point is 00:32:36 Yeah, exactly. And the rest of us are smarter than you, so there you go. Well, I mean, yeah. So going back to the question that, that I think Joe had asked you and I totally understand the logic. And of course it seems to be working for you. The idea of like, if it's not broke, don't fix it. And, you know, being lower maintenance about things now, because I don't need to be high maintenance about things is a super smart approach. But is there ever any kind of, because I mean, you know, there's always people talking about like, if she had actually, she actually wanted to be super anal about like training and nutrition and be like really like regimented about things and test everything and like be in a lab like a cyborg, like I can imagine what she could accomplish. But there's also maybe the argument

Starting point is 00:33:24 that it's like, maybe the fact that you aren't super anal about all this stuff, like other people that's making you as good as you are, because you're not sweating the small stuff, like you said, and you're not obsessing over things to a point where it's adding stress to your life. Like, do you ever think about maybe that's something that comes like later on in your career where you're like, all right, well, maybe I'm feeling a little bit more aches and pains. Like let's get in the cryotherapy and let's like do all this weird stuff and see. Yeah, for sure. I'm not against any of it. Same with like having a coach, you know, I don't have a coach right now. Um, but right now I'm having a whole lot of fun figuring it out on

Starting point is 00:33:59 my own and, um, and enjoying, like enjoying the process and life's enough where I don't want to start being anal about everything I eat or the recovery method that I'm using. I just want to enjoy and have fun and chase this dream a little bit. And that's working right now. And maybe down the line, you know, it could be a year, it could be five years, you know, who knows, but maybe it does come to a point where it's like, all right, we got to try something different. Like let's add in something new because we're like, it's gone flatline or whatever, you know, um, then I'll do that. But for now, it's, I'm having a good time just

Starting point is 00:34:46 flying by the seat of my pants and making it up as I go. I love it. I mean, I do think that that's kind of a good message for our listeners to hear who a lot of them are competitive athletes, but a lot of them are just like fitness enthusiasts, right? And I think that being on social media and connecting with people, we tend to see maybe too much information sometimes. And we can also kind of, when we get excited about a sport or a competition that we're doing,

Starting point is 00:35:15 we can get like over excited about it and wanna, I don't know, take it to a point where it becomes more stress than fun. And so I think to see someone like you who is having a lot of success, but it's still like, this is something I want to do. And I and it's fun. And I want to like enjoy my life at the same time. I think that's a good message for people because there are a lot of us out there that are not serious athletes. And we are like stressing the hell out over everything that we eat and all of our training. Like, have fun. Isn't that what this is supposed to be about?

Starting point is 00:35:52 Yeah, I mean, I think but to each their own, if, you know, that's what you want to do, or that's, you know, the path you want to take, then, then that's great. But then have fun with that, you know, like, if you're gonna be restricting the types of food you're eating, then better make that restriction enjoyable, I guess. You know, we get one life, I think so. Yeah. And some people do like, as we've said, like some people love, you know, being really methodical and like, yeah, yeah. In that way a lot. And that's cool. But yeah, I think it goes back to like, is what you're doing fun, because life is short. And you really don't want to look back and think like, I stress myself out so much over something unnecessarily. Right. Yeah. And you've said you don't really pay like too much attention to what other people are doing when you're racing. But do you believe that your

Starting point is 00:36:36 kind of approach to training and eating and stuff, do you think that it's kind of unique in the ultra endurance industry? Or do you think that there are other people who are like you that are just like, yep, I just kind of eat and train and be intuitive about it? I think there's definitely people like me. I think that there's the whole spectrum on the, you look at a start line of a ultra marathon and you're going to find every type of, you know, training, nutrition, like type A, type B, whatever you want to, you know, categorize it as, but there's every single type of person standing on that start line. And I think that's one of the things about ultras that I think is so cool is that there's no like recipe necessarily for being successful and being successful is like being there,

Starting point is 00:37:25 you know, getting out onto that start line of whatever race is your goal. Like that's success, you know, it's pretty cool to try and tackle these big things. So there's no, you know, defined, I don't think like route to get to that start line for what you do as an athlete, as a runner. Um, and, and it's cool then to see all these different pathways lead to the same thing,

Starting point is 00:37:52 like all these different methods to the madness leading us all to the same start line where we're all going to cover them with our feet a hundred miles or whatever the distance is. Yeah, super cool. Do you so it seems to me in my like, experience with talking to people who are really good athletes that like the one in a million ones who come around, they tend to be people who like in a lot of cases have hit some some kind of genetic lottery that they were maybe unaware of, but then combining that with like really superhuman kind of passion and dedication and hard work. Like usually people who make it to the top kind of have a little bit of both. Like they aren't people who are completely genetically unlucky, but they also aren't people who are like, Oh, I just hit the

Starting point is 00:38:39 lottery and I kind of don't try that hard. Like you kind of have a little bit of both. Do you have any sense that you, you have any of that kind of like genetic advantage? Like have you ever tested like your VO2 max? Like, do you have some crazy VO2 max or some like crazy sort of muscle fiber makeup that, that makes you a superhuman? Yeah. I've never had any of those tests done. So I have no idea. Crazy. Oh my God. I love it. I just love that. Like other people in your position would be like all over that shit. You're like, nah, I'm good. I mean, definitely, you know, my parents were athletes when they were young and grew, I've always been just active people, you know, but nothing like hardcore or intense or not high level stuff or anything, just,

Starting point is 00:39:34 just active and, and competitive. So growing up, you know, we had a great upbringing with games and competitions and sports all the time. And, and then I had great coaches all through high school and college. So I think it's a combination of all sorts of things. And then I think also playing into it for me is that I'm just loving it and I'm really curious what's possible. And so I'm, I'm really enjoying the like process of finding that out for myself. Like, what are we capable of doing? If we put all of our, you know, energy towards this thing? Yeah, I guess that natural curiosity has a lot to do with it, for sure.

Starting point is 00:40:20 I think it's got to was your Were your parents like endurance athletes? What kind of sports were they into? Not really. No, I think growing up, like football and, you know, just kind of classic sports, soccer. My mom, I think, ran cross country, but probably more as like a social activity. But then as they were adults, they did all sorts of, they were just always active. Like they were in adult sports leagues and stuff like that.

Starting point is 00:40:53 They've always been down to game, you know, like get outside, move around and oftentimes make competition out of it. I have two brothers. So growing up, everything was a competition, you know, like eating dinner was a competition, but I can get behind the eating. Yeah. Does everybody in your family have the same kind of like positive, just happy and curious outlook on life as you like like is that something that runs in

Starting point is 00:41:26 the family for you too uh yeah I guess I mean it's yeah I don't know I think uh it's an interesting dynamic to be super competitive but also like pretty chill like you know from what I can tell like the other people that I know that are like super hard charging athletes, like, you know, you're like this type A personality and you're super high strung and you're also super competitive. Like, it seems like a really interesting dynamic that you are. And I mean, I wouldn't even use the term laid back because you run a zillion miles a year. But like, you have a pretty like calm kind of Zen attitude towards the whole thing. But at the same time, you love to compete. It's just like it's a really unique mix, I think.

Starting point is 00:42:10 I think we were raised where if you're going to do something, you do it full on and you give your very best. And also like this is what you get. Like you get out of your life what you want. So enjoy it, because here it is, you know. So I think we were raised that way, where it was kind of a combination of those two things. Okay, so now I'm gonna move into food questions, because food is my favorite topic. And one of the things that I love, one of the things I love watching, like ultra endurance races and things like that, I like watching them and watching the people who compete in them because I like seeing how you guys fuel yourselves because it's like, it's incredible, right? Like you're burning thousands and thousands of calories a day. And one of the big challenges more so than even like moving your body through this distance is being able to kind of keep, keep your energy up and trying to fuel yourself in a way that can get you through right. And I think, like, I don't know, some of the stuff that I see people eat over and over again, it's kind of weird, like you love your like mashed

Starting point is 00:43:14 potatoes, and so good. You've got everybody's got their cup of noodles and stuff. And I get obviously people need carbs, right? They need like, easy calories and things that you're gonna like that are easy to eat when you're taking like a 10 minute break, and you got to get some stuff down. But do you here's my question. Here's my like, total personal opinion question. Why are you guys not eating more candy bars and like chocolate and sugar? It's like super hyper palatable calories, Cause sometimes I watch, um, runners and they're like, you know, obviously you lose your appetite in a lot of cases and you're not like super pumped about eating and filling your belly before you go out to run again. And so I would think that like super hyper palatable, like sugary stuff would be the way to go. Right. Yeah, for sure.

Starting point is 00:44:01 I mean, so these aid stations, this might be how I can convince you to do an ultra. The aid stations are like buffet lines. So you get to an aid station and they're going to be offering basically every type of drink you can imagine, you know, all sorts of different types of soda and water and some sort of endurance like Gatorade or Tailwind. They've got, you know, coffee and the whole gamut of beverages. And then they've got a full on spread of every like possible craving you might have. So salty foods, sweet foods, savory, hot food, you know, popsicles, everything. Because like you were saying, these ultras, I mean, it's like, what is your body going to take in right now? You need calories. So what's sitting well today? So yeah, I mean, at those tables, there's definitely bowls full of M&Ms and gummy bears and all sorts of types of candy. Some people always bring, you know, snicker bars or Reese's cups in their packs and,

Starting point is 00:45:12 and those work for them. My I love the honey stinger chews, which are basically like, have you had them? Yeah. They're just like sugar. Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of my simple, quick sugar fix that I'll use during them. And then the mashed potatoes for me are like the complex carb that can fulfill that craving and also get me some of those nutrients that will maybe help my muscles last a little bit longer. But I'm definitely out there doing some of the simple sugars like the honey stinger stuff. Yeah, but you don't like like you don't you're more of like a salty than a sweet person, right? Like you don't love chocolate bars and stuff. I'm more of a

Starting point is 00:45:56 sweet if we're talking candy, like fruity sweet. So if I'm going to get candy for my house, which I always have on hand, it's always like the jelly beans, gummy bears, Mike and Ike's. I love the fruity candies. And so it makes sense then that the honey stinger stuff is like my go-to sugary sweet food for during the races. Got it. Yeah. I mean, I think I have said before to somebody, cause I'm an asshole like this and I'm like, that would be the one thing that would get me to do endurance racing is I can eat whatever I want. Cause I'm burning so many calories. Yeah. Sounds like you should do a 50 K just give it a shot. But then I'm like, Oh wait, but then I got to run the 50 K too. There's like some work that has to be done in between. So I don't know, maybe I'll get

Starting point is 00:46:49 my head around it. But it is kind of like an interesting sort of like dichotomy, though, that like, on one hand, I see a lot of people eating stuff that are like these good kind of complex carbs, but they're they're bland, right. And I would think that in a way that's almost like purposeful, because if you maybe aren't feeling up to eating, you don't want to eat something that's super flavorful, like maybe if you're nauseous, maybe bland is kind of good. But on the other hand, when it's hard to eat, and you're trying to force yourself to eat stuff, you kind of want something that's like, again, going back to like the hyper palatable thing, right? Because I would imagine if I'm like exhausted, asleep on my feet, a little bit nauseous, like maybe I don't want to eat,

Starting point is 00:47:30 you know, I don't know, a cup of noodles. But I mean, yeah, yeah, for sure. The mashed potatoes are great. Because oftentimes, like, if you're nauseous, then chewing the motion, like the act of chewing, like just makes you more nauseous. You know, you chew this food around and it's just like making you feel like you're going to throw up at any second. So the mashed potatoes are great. And, um, I'm sorry if this is like too much, too much for a Wednesday morning, all the gross details. Yeah. But the mashed potatoes are great because you can like take in a bite of those with some water and just swallow like you don't have to chew at all. You know, so you can like sneak attack your system with some calories, even though it's trying to tell you that you don't kind of obsess over this, but just it's interesting to talk about for people who are kind of really interested in like macros and nutrition specifics. Like I would imagine protein is probably something that people aren't super into during the races.

Starting point is 00:48:38 Like that's kind of a harder thing for your body to break down. Like you're pretty much just looking at what kind of carbs, what kind of energy can we get in more easily, right? For me, yeah. In those, the 200 milers though, the aid stations would have like burgers being grilled and, you know, pretty intense options because the 200 mile races, people are out there for three, four, five days. So you've got to take in some real food as opposed to just the kind of race nutrition stuff. My husband runs ultra sometimes now and he loves when he gets to an aid station and there's bacon. So he'll fill his pockets with just slices of bacon and that'll like get him jazzed for the next, you know, five, 10 miles or whatever he has to go to the next spot. So I think it's totally individual on what works for people and what their stomach likes at different points in a race.

Starting point is 00:49:41 Temperature also weighs into it, like a really hot day versus a colder race, you're going to be craving and able to take in different types of food. Right? Yeah, I guess that makes a big difference too, right? If you're freezing cold or hot when you're running. Have you seen much? Have you noticed if because I know that there's sort of like a sub section of like ultra athletes who are getting into this sort of higher fat keto kind of approach. Like the bacon reminded me of this because you can be sort of like fat adapted and not relying so much on carbs. Then you also aren't relying so much on fuel period during the longer runs. Like you don't have to do like every hour or so you've got a gel or whatever. Have you noticed or paid any attention to that with

Starting point is 00:50:25 your races? I mean, I know there's tons of people doing, I guess, I don't know if the word is tons, but yeah, I'm aware of many athletes who are doing keto and are loving it. Yeah. For me, I have no interest in cutting out carbs because that's one of my favorite food groups. So, so I won't be going that direction, but like I was, I mean, whatever works for people and whatever, you know, makes them find joy in their, in their days and their weeks and helps them pursue this thing they want to pursue. Is it sort of like it kind of just comes with the territory of super endurance racing that

Starting point is 00:51:13 potential stomach upset and digestion issues are kind of like a part of what happens? Like, not to say that it happens every time you race, but like it is a factor in racing always. It's definitely a factor and you don't know, you know, that's one of the variables when you stand on a start line that you aren't, you can't be certain how it's going to play out for you on that day. Because sometimes like I've, I've nailed down, like during normal life, I eat whatever I want. I drink whatever I want. I don't pay attention. But in a race, I've nailed down pretty much a very narrow group of foods that I use during races. So I stay in that family and I've found that it works for me. But then there's the random race where suddenly all these things that you found work great for you aren't working. And so then it's a cool process of problem solving.

Starting point is 00:52:12 And afterwards, maybe reflecting you can come up with what maybe made that happen. Or it might just be totally random. And the next race, you do those normal foods again, and it works again. So it's like a little bit of a mystery sometimes, which makes it fun. And I guess that's also where having like a great crew and a team comes in too, because they can help you sort of problem solve and like figure things out on the fly when you're having issues that maybe you didn't foresee. Yeah, for sure. And yeah, just more brains, more, more hands to help more everything. Do you I feel like I probably know the answer to this already. But do you use supplements? Do I use any supplements? Yeah,

Starting point is 00:52:58 no. Yeah, that's what I do. I do a chewy, like a gummy multivitamin most days. Because it's kind of like a candy? Yeah, yeah. It's like, ooh, candy at 7 a.m.? Deal. Yeah. Might be good for me. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:53:14 We'll give it a try. All right. No supplements. Good. Maybe that's another thing you just add to the list of like, I'll try it when I need it. Yeah, exactly. Okay.

Starting point is 00:53:23 So we have to talk a little bit about mindset stuff. And I put out on social media that I was going to be chatting with you and had people kind of send in some questions if they had them. And of course, one question that comes up over and over again is like, how do you get through the tough times on the race day or even in training when you just you feel exhausted, you're beaten down, you have dark moments, you feel sick. What do you tell yourself? And I remember you talking about this on Joe Rogan and saying a lot of it is just sort of like one step in front of the other and telling yourself that you're okay. And, you know, people obviously have different methods for this

Starting point is 00:54:00 than others. And some things work for other people. But I guess like a one way to kind of ask the opposite of that question is, was there ever a time in a race where you met that moment of like darkness and I can't do it and you gave into it? And if you did have that experience, like what did that teach you? How did you deal with that? Yeah, that's such a good question. And like you were saying, when those moments come now, I know that it's a moment that's happening and that if I just focus on whatever amount of distance in front of me that I can manage, whether that's the next aid station or the next tree or the next footstep, you know, however small it needs to be that I just keep pushing through it and I'll find the other side of this dark spot. But I didn't know that initially. So when I got into ultra running, I did a 50K, a 50 mile, and then signed up for my first hundred mile race.

Starting point is 00:55:03 And during that hundred mile race, I hit one of those dark patches and it physically, it was hurting really bad. And mentally I was in this low and I was questioning, you know, is, is this possible? And, um, I gave into it. I just, uh, decided like, well, the hundred mile distance isn't for me, I guess I'll, I need to just quit this race. And so I stopped the race at like mile 60, I guess. Um, because I didn't know that you could push through that mental low. And I didn't know that of course it's going to physically hurt, but if you just keep moving, your body finds the next gear. I didn't understand all of those pieces and gave into it pretty quickly. Like I didn't put up much of a battle with my brain. I mean, you made it 60 miles. That's not really

Starting point is 00:55:52 that quick for most of us, but I get it. Yeah. I mean, when the goal is a hundred, though, that's, I mean, barely over 50%. So it was like, dang it. But then afterwards, maybe 24 hours later, it rolled over where I was just mad. Like I was really frustrated with myself that I had given up so quickly and decided then that a hundred miles was going to be a distance I could cover and that I was going to attack it again the next year and build up better and be smarter about it and stay tough when it got hard. And so the next race, it was just a mindset of like, you're finishing this thing no matter what. So even in the lowest moments, it was like, keep moving because quitting is not an option this time. And that, I think, taught me a lot about the mental piece of these ultras.

Starting point is 00:56:52 So I think two of the things that I'm hearing that are applicable to us normal humans is, and I think that these are applicable not only for sports, but for like everything in life, is one of the things is that what do you tell yourself is about sort of like taking it in smaller chunks. Like so many of us, we tend to think too far ahead and too big picture sometimes, which can be problematic because of course you get overwhelmed and think, how the hell am I ever going to run a hundred miles? That's ridiculous. But if you can think about getting to the next tree into the next aid station, anybody can kind of do like the next step. And I think that that's something we all need to kind of maybe pay more attention to when we're stressed out about a work project or what, you know, relationship or whatever it is that we've got going on. If you can kind of just try to be a

Starting point is 00:57:38 little bit more present in what's happening right now versus where you're going to be in 10 hours or 10 days. Yeah, yeah. Like what's the digestible piece right in front of me and just attack each of those pieces. Right. And then I guess from the other side of the failures or the times that you didn't accomplish what you wanted to accomplish, what makes people successful is that you failed and then you kept going. It's not just like okay Well a hundred miles aren't for me like if you would if you had said that and kept and stuck to that story after your

Starting point is 00:58:10 First hundred mile like we wouldn't be having this conversation you wouldn't Make you love so much And I'm sure there are a lot of people out there not to be a bummer But like people who did have dreams like that and and felt sort of first pain and thought, you know what, nope, and they didn't keep going. And I think that's what makes people successful is not necessarily being superhuman, but just keep going. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's amazing what our bodies can accomplish, but I'm even more impressed always what our brains are capable of doing and helping us overcome. So if we just, you know, stay tough and don't give up on ourselves, I think that's huge. And then not fall back on excuses, like not use excuses as escape routes.

Starting point is 00:59:01 We're like, oh, I didn't finish the 100 mile race so I'm just not gonna do 100 miles ever again you know applies to everyday life all the time I think so but the dark side of that I guess one question that I would ask because to do the kind of stuff that you guys do you have to be able to you have to be willing to sort of sacrifice a lot in terms of physical pain. And sometimes people kind of push through things that maybe other people would say is not a smart thing to push through without like overall health and longevity. And like you talked about a race that you did where you like went blind temporarily. Do you feel like you know, in your mind, when you're in the middle of a race, and you're like jazzed up, and you're ready to win it? Do you

Starting point is 00:59:51 still feel like you have some kind of internal switch that will tell you like, when you've hit a point where this is not safe, this is not good? Or do you feel like there's a part like the part in the back of your brain will be like, I'm gonna do this do this if it kills me. Um, I'm not, I'm not on a, uh, I don't have a death wish for sure. And, and I understand, you know, this is just, this is just running. This is, um, fun. And this is racing, you know, but it's like the outcome isn't gonna, you know, make or break your life, you know? So I do understand that, but I also, I think my switch, my alarms get maybe smaller during a race where like, um, it would, you know, it would have to be pretty serious for the alarm to actually end up going off during a race, I think. But I trust myself that if it's not going off,

Starting point is 01:00:48 then it's all good. And that the physical pain that I'm feeling is normal and that that's something you can push through. But I don't recommend people run until they lose their vision and then try and keep running. Like that's not what you ask. Can you tell us about that, that race? Yeah, it was a hundred mile, um, trail race in steamboat Springs, Colorado called run rabbit run. And I was about, I guess it started maybe 12 miles from the finish line. And my vision was just like blurring on the sides. But I thought it was my contact lenses or, you know, it was dawn at that point, it was starting to have the sunrise. So I thought the sun was just like messing with the air or something. I don't know, but I didn't pay it much attention until it closed in

Starting point is 01:01:47 all the way where I couldn't see my hand in front of my face. So it was full white vision. If I look straight down at my feet, I could see right in front of my toes. So I was in this race, you know, trying to get to the finish as quickly as possible. And the only solution in my head was to stare straight at my feet and still keep running as quickly as possible. So, um, you can imagine when you don't have much, like you can't see ahead of you on the trail, you trip over everything. So I was falling all over the trail on every rock and route and just Superman diving across the trail. Which, yeah, that would then be the dangerous part is one of the times I did that, I hit my head on a rock when I landed and I didn't get knocked out or anything. So I got back up and kept going. But then I had this liquid pouring down my face

Starting point is 01:02:46 and I touched it to see what was going on, but I couldn't see my hand. So I'm like, well, maybe it's just sweat. When it's definitely blood. Turns out, yeah, it was definitely blood. I mean, was there never a point though, when you're like, I am now literally stumbling blind, maybe, or you just kind of always felt like I have the capability to finish this. I'm close to the end. I'm just going to get there. Yeah. It never crossed my mind to stop. And like stopping wouldn't accomplish anything because I was still on this single track trail,

Starting point is 01:03:22 you know, in the middle of the mountains and needed to get to the finish line in order for any like assistance to happen. So it was like, well, we might as well get there quickly then if like that's the only solution anyways. Of course, you know, I could have like made a call for, you know, a rescue or whatever. But yeah, it didn't cross my mind. It was like, this is the solution I have to the problem that I'm being confronted with. And so I'm gonna keep doing this as long as another problem doesn't come up. It's faster for me to just finish the damn thing. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:04:05 So what was the final verdict about that? Like what had happened with your vision? Was it like related to a dehydration thing or like too much sun exposure or what was it? Yeah, so they diagnosed it as a corneal edema, so swelling. And it was a combination from my understanding of like the dust in the air, my contacts. It was a really long race. Like this is at the end of a hundred mile race that had taken, you know, over 20 hours. So just the accumulated fatigue.

Starting point is 01:04:37 And I also hadn't been taking in the simple sugars for hours. So mashed potatoes were sneaking in okay, but like the quick and easy energy source wasn't. And so I think there was like a combination of factors there, but I haven't had it happen since. So hoping to just keep that train going. Seems like it was kind of a bit of a, like, again, like you said, good things and bad things can happen on the trail. They're like a confluence of a bunch of different elements that maybe there's not really much you could have done in preparation for that. Yeah. And that's the fun of ultra running is there's always going to be problems that come

Starting point is 01:05:21 up that you couldn't have predicted. And so then it's this fun, like, you've got a problem solve with, you know, the hand you're holding and, and figure out what you can do in this like random situation you could have never predicted. I think that sentence basically like sums up your personality and approach to training is like, that's the fun of it is that there's always going to be problems. I love that approach. I mean, but that's the reality of it, right? I mean, the same with like training or with life, like you're not getting through life without any problems. You might as well approach it in like a positive, fun way than like dreading the inevitable. Like just come up with a solution instead of like freaking out over the problem in the first place. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. I love it. Okay. So we're coming up to an hour here. And before I let you go, I do want to ask you about, um, a couple of races that I don't

Starting point is 01:06:17 know if you, I'm sure you're familiar with, but I just, every time I hear about them, I'm like, Courtney should probably do these races. You know about the Barkley marathon, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. That obviously, there's a lot more to that than just endurance and, and trail running. There's like, borderline, like, I don't know, orienteering that you have to be able to like, get through this like crazy path, but no one knows how to get to the end of it. You got to find your pieces of paper. It's like all very like eccentric, but amazing to, to watch, um, from the sidelines. But is that something that like interests you at all? Yeah, absolutely. Oh, I think that's so intriguing and, and just, you know, the different types of challenges that you'd have to deal with out there in that type of

Starting point is 01:07:00 race versus a marked course and a well-established trail is really interesting to me. So I'm hoping one of these years I can get myself to that start line. Yeah. I mean, it's notoriously kind of like difficult, I guess, to get into because it's like, it's a very small race and you kind of like need to know somebody and there's like a secret email address and stuff. I kind of feel like if you wanted to get into it, you'd be able to get into it. Like, I feel like pull some strings and get into that. Yeah. I mean, I'd still have to send a vial of my blood and like a carrier pigeon with a poem. That's weird, right? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:07:39 It's hilarious, but that's what makes it so good is it's so different. It's so like weird and different. And again, the first woman to do it and it is it's so different. It's so like weird and different. And again, the first woman to do it and it would make me super excited. Anyway, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that you do that at some point. But have you heard though that the founder of that, he has a couple other races and one of them is like this crazy, I forget what he calls it, but it's like a four mile. Yeah. You've got to just like do it until you're dead. It's like death race. Yeah. I did it last year. You did that one? Yeah. Big's backyard.

Starting point is 01:08:11 Oh yeah. I think I actually read about this and you came, did you, you came second? Yeah. Yeah. Shit. I actually, now I remember that I read about that. It was so cool. Like he, so Laz is the race director of all these, the Barkley and Big's Backyard, and he's got a slew of other races. And he's just like, has come up with all these unique challenges that really push you in different ways than a traditional race does. And I think that's so awesome. Like the formula he's figured out for making people, you know, suffer and in that suffering, find out a whole lot about themselves and, and, you know, get stronger mentally and physically is really special. Yeah, that one, that is like a whole

Starting point is 01:08:59 different level of like scary challenge. Like when I first read about that one, I was like, I'm pretty sure there's actually a Stephen King novel about this where they like they eventually just die. Yeah. I think maybe it's based off of that. Yeah. It would not surprise me at all. But like, so does that one appeal to you more or less than the Barkley? They both appeal to me. So now that I've experienced Big's Backyard, I really want to get back to it and do it again. So Johan is the guy who won. And I mean,

Starting point is 01:09:35 I think if I could have, I would have stayed in because we were really close to getting to 300 miles, which I think would have just been a really cool marker to break through. So yeah, now that I've got a little bit of experience and like can picture the event a little better, I think going back to it, I could put together better days and make it last longer. The Barclay is definitely intriguing as well. And that one I think is more like, I have no idea what that would be like to be navigating out in those woods, searching for books.

Starting point is 01:10:14 So that one's like, I can't picture it as well, but I'm really interested in finding out what that feeling is. My blood pressure is raising just like thinking about you doing it. This is why I'm like kind of a bad, but also good fan and spectator because I get like, I'm like super high strong and getting freaked out. Just like,

Starting point is 01:10:36 I gotta take a deep breath. I gotta go eat some candy. Yeah. We used that on this morning. What races do you have coming up? Um, this year I have coming up the hard rock 100, which is a hundred mile race in Colorado. Um, do you know this race? I'm vaguely familiar with it. I've heard about it before. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's kind of an older classic hundred mile race and it is in the san juans of colorado so it actually on the race course gets up to 14 000 feet it goes up on one of our

Starting point is 01:11:13 biggest mountains in the state which is really cool and a tough challenge um and then i'll do one in france in um this summer as. And then this year, the 24 hour world championships are being held. So, um, I'll be competing there on team USA, trying to put together our best 24 hour races that we can. And is that, that race then is it how far you can go in 24 hours? Yep. So it's a short loop. Usually, I mean, it can be on a 400 meter track or sometimes it's on, you know, like a one kilometer or two mile loop, just depending on the venue, but you just circle it as many times as you can in 24 hours. Don't you have the record right now for the furthest distance in 24 hours? I had the American record

Starting point is 01:12:05 for a bit and then it just got broken in December by a woman from the US who also at the same time set the new world record. So it's currently at like 162 miles, which is really exciting. I gotta take more deep breaths. Okay. More excitement for you going into it then, which is really exciting. I got to take more deep breaths. More excitement for you going into it then, because now you have another goal to chase. Yeah. I would love to break 160 and get up in that. The potential to set a record would be awesome. So I'll be trying to show up there as fresh as possible for sure. So cool. What about, I know you've said before that, or I think you before have run in like cold places, you raced in Alaska, maybe. How do you feel about like doing some of these like far distances in the freezing cold? Sounds cool. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:13:01 And you know, be very careful though, because that's that, like, like you said, in terms like, fueling yourself, but also like the clothes that you're going to run in are going to make a difference. Like the stuff, like how your, how your feet are landing, if you're in snow a fun challenge. I think you could basically name any race and I, I'm going to say, yeah, that sounds sweet. Well, what about like, uh, adding some things that aren't running? Like, have you ever thought about doing Ironmans or like any kind of like ultra long distance triathlons and like throwing some other sports in the mix? Not really. No, I'm super impressed by Ironman and, you know, any of that multi-sports stuff that lasts so long. Like, it's crazy when, you know, like to me, running for a really long time doesn't seem that wild, but sitting on a bike for, you know, a whole day seems like just nuts. I'm like, what? How did you bike? I mean, how long are they biking in a Iron Man? A hundred and some miles? Yeah. Yeah. It's far. It takes, it's a long time on the bike. And

Starting point is 01:14:18 I'm like, that's just crazy. Yeah. But it's like six hours, dude. It's not like four days. I know, which makes it cool. Right now, I'm not a great swimmer, so I'm not interested in trying any triathlons, but maybe eventually it could be a fun thing to dabble in just for fun. But in the meantime, anybody who creates the longer, crazier, weirder, harder, sign me up. Got it. All right, Courtney, thank you so much for taking the time. I am so, so excited that we got to chat and you're just, you're a huge inspiration and you, yeah, I mean, I can't say enough. I'm just fangirling all over the place. So I'll be watching all of your races. I can't wait to see you marathon and, um, good luck with everything you're doing this year. Thanks so much. Have a great day. All right, everybody. That's it. Thanks for listening. Thank you again to my show sponsor highlight. If you want to pick up some good quality workout gear, you can go to highlight.com and use the code MAVEN15 for a discount. And if you want to

Starting point is 01:15:26 say hi to me, give me some suggestions for more badass women to interview on the podcast, because I know there's a lot of them out there. Reach out to me on Instagram at The Muscle Maven. Say hi, give me some feedback, give me some suggestions. And speaking of badass women, next week, I am speaking with a fitness pro coach, Jill Coleman. You probably know her on Instagram as Jill Fit. She coaches fitness coaches and pros and helps them build their online businesses. And we're going to talk about her pretty intense journey through competitive fitness, yo-yo dieting, personal struggles, relationship struggles,

Starting point is 01:16:03 all that stuff that brought her to the successful place that she's in right now. And we kind of talk about how you can be in and a part of the fitness community and be very visible and very active in that world without becoming obsessive and anal and dysfunctional and unhealthy, because that is kind of an unspoken secret in the fitness world that a lot of these people who are preaching about fitness and health and balance and wellness and all of that stuff are anything but. So Jill has a lot of tips on that and a lot of useful information for us. So it's a trip. Anyone who is a coach or involved in the health and fitness world at all should listen. And I hope

Starting point is 01:16:42 you do. So join me next week and have a great week.

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Barbell Shrugged - Stress Less, Win More. Lessons From One of The World’s Best Ultra-Endurance Runners, Courtney Dauwalter — Muscle Maven Radio Episode #17

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