Barbell Shrugged - The Biggest Lie in Strength and Why Kids Need to Be Lifting Weights Anders Varner, Doug Larson, and Travis Mash - Barbell Shrugged #499

Episode Date: August 31, 2020

In this Episode of Barbell Shrugged:   Why are people so scared of kids lifting weights What does the research say about kids lifting weights When should you start having your kids lift weights Why is football is ok but a barbell is “dangerous” Why misinformation is scaring the public   Anders Varner on Instagram Doug Larson on Instagram Coach Travis Mash on Instagram ———————————————— Training Programs to Build Muscle: https://bit.ly/34zcGVw   Nutrition Programs to Lose Fat and Build Muscle: https://bit.ly/3eiW8FF   Nutrition and Training Bundles to Save 67%: https://bit.ly/2yaxQxa ———————————————— Please Support Our Sponsors   Legion Athletics Whey Protein, Creatine, and Pre-Workout - Save 20% using code “SHRUGGED”   Shadow Creative Studios - Save $200 + Free Consult to start you podcast using code” “Shrugged” at podcast.shadowstud.io   Organifi - Save 20% using code: “Shrugged” at organifi.com/shrugged   www.masszymes.com/shruggedfree  - for FREE bottle of BiOptimizers Masszymes   Garage Gym Equipment and Accessories: https://bit.ly/3b6GZFj Save 5% using the coupon code “Shrugged”

Shark family, this beautiful Monday, you are going to hear your boy Coach Travis Mash go off on some people. I've been lighting him up about his five-year-old lifting weights. And you know why I think he's mad? Because he knows his five-year-old is stronger than all the people mad at him on Twitter right now combined. Dang it, does it get me fired up coach travis smash is fired up starts letting people know how smart he is and how strong his kid is yeah but also a really important show on training youth athletes why it's okay for your kids to lift weights why maybe playing football and getting bashed in the head over and over and over again

may not be the best idea yet for some reason our society thinks it's okay for our kids to play football and if you put a barbell in the hair and all of a sudden you're chopping off growth plates and your kid's going to be a tiny human who never grows it's just ridiculous yet all this bad information just continues to swarm the internet and i'm really fired up to put this show together before we get rolling though podcast.shadowstude.io that's where my dude yannick is hanging out taking your podcast from idea to live in two weeks setup includes branding logos cover art and more it's an easy process all you do is record and upload your audio shadow creative studios handles it all. Everything else is done

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Use the code shrugged to save 10%. Friends, do me a favor. When you hear Travis Mash going off, I want you to take a screenshot of this. Tag me at Anders Varner on Instagram. Put your screenshot up in your stories and we will see you guys at the break. Welcome to Barbell Shrug. My name is Anders Varner, Doug Larson, Coach Travis Mash. Hanging out.

I'm at the lake today, fellas. I'm on my big vacation. This is my last week at the lake. I have a beautiful backdrop. I could be staring at you guys on Zoom today, or I might just be staring out into the beautiful old glacier water that has melted and turned this. I'm on an island actually it's phenomenal um today we're going to be talking about training youth athletes which is super exciting because our boy travis mash has been in a battle royale travis is fighting kids on twitter

on instagram he's putting twitter posts up on instagram the guy is fired up he had at least a gallon and a half of coffee this morning getting excited for this. And I'm going to ignore him for one second. And I'm kicking it to Doug Larson because, dude, we got kids. And we're going to call them youth athletes. I think the real conversation is kind of getting in for the meat of this gets into, like, teenagers and when they should start training, which is the most applicable to the majority of people. But dude, raising three boys, this conversation is really probably at the forefront of your brain of teaching them how to be strong without telling them that they're training and doing something really hard. Um, you know, how do you, I guess as a dad or as somebody

that's had a history of maybe training youth athletes, um, how do you feel about all of the, just, I guess your thoughts and putting training programs together for kids? I mean, there's, there's better and worse ways to train everyone. I feel like in the little kid debate or like the, you know, little kid, but, you know, if you're training a 10-year-old or a 13-year-old or however old they are, there are more conservative ways to go about it that are more likely to keep people healthy and injury-free. And then there are more intense versions where there's a little more risk involved but that's just kind of the nature of sports and training in general you should be probably a little more conservative with kids but it's interesting how some people they they say that kids shouldn't do certain things like they shouldn't do cleans or they shouldn't do deadlifts or whatever it is and it was in my mind to just talk about the movements for a

moment it's not about the movements for a moment it's not about the movement specifically it's about how you perform the movement how heavy you do the movement how much volume you do but if you give a you give a kid a pvc pipe and you teach him how to snatch like there's nothing wrong with that at all like you're not gonna you're not gonna damage a kid just by teaching him a movement pattern at all. If you're doing true one-rep maxes where you're trying to get your kid as a six-year-old who weighs 60 pounds to deadlift triple body weight, well, that's probably excessive. But you can still teach a kid how to hinge and move correctly. Right. Squat, hinge.

We want kids to play and move and, and, and be active. Yeah. If they're going to go out and play soccer, well, they're going to experience lots of loading on their, on all of the, you know, especially in soccer, their, their lower body joints, like their, their knees are going to take on a lot of forces. Like they're going to load their muscles heavily. Like when they're decelerating, doing change of direction, like these are all very high loads on a developing body. But for the most part, pretty much okay. You can get some injuries by playing soccer or anything else.

But it seems like, relevant to this conversation, weightlifting seems to be singled out as this really dangerous activity. And the research just doesn't support it at all. It doesn't support it at all. It doesn't support it in adults. You compare injury rates for weightlifting in adults to football, MMA, even more benign sports like soccer. And the injury rates are much lower in weightlifting, powerlifting, strongman, especially bodybuilding. Bodybuilding is really conservative. Crossfit is a little bit higher with shoulder injuries. But by and large, compared to the spectrum of sport, weightlifting and strength sports are relatively safe.

They're all very controlled environments, which tend to make things pretty safe. Yeah, I want to give my two cents because as soon as Matt starts talking, it'll be an hour and the show will be over. I love thinking, like, the debate to me Because as soon as Matt starts talking, it'll be an hour and the show will be over. I love thinking, like, the debate to me isn't even really a debate. Because when you understand movement, I feel like somebody who's like, you shouldn't teach your kid how to snatch. Go, okay, well, what if I teach them to jump and raise their arm at the same time?

You go, well, that seems okay. Or why do you have your kid in martial arts? Like, why teaching them karate we're teaching them a combat sport but we can't teach them how to jump and raise their arms at the same time that sounds that sounds counterintuitive or like when i see like gymnasts especially girl gymnasts that have to peak they have to be their best that they can possibly be when they're 12 13 years old and then you go into the gymnastics studio you got a bunch of eight-year-olds doing just insane tumbling routines and you're like this doesn't make sense how come if we add a barbell to this all of a sudden like what i'm looking at in gymnastics with girls doing l-sit pull-ups or not even pull-ups l-sitit rope climbs for many, many, many reps.

But you think if we added a weight or a barbell to the mix, all of a sudden, it's really dangerous. Ooh, heads up, guys. Watch out. There's just no logic to it, yet somehow it just continually pops up and mash posted a video of rock doing an overhead squat and a clean those two things and the same guys coming at you and and now you're on one and now you're fired up um dude and not only that but you've coached youth athletes your whole life and have the best youth team in the country. Dude, walk me through just like, I mean, Rock is a little bit different because he's five. So you're really just teaching play.

But like when you see him and then we're going to kind of move this more into a relevant area of actually coaching youth athletes. I mean, really, I guess the common sense thing is like uh you know i'm having rock do all kinds of things like he's doing gymnastics uh he's actually on a competitive gymnastics team which he's not old enough you have to be six but they brought him in early no one said a word about that everybody's like oh how cute that's awesome we love it you know i put a fucking i put a barbell on his hands and it's like i'm like now i'm abusive parent but wait what like this barbell that he's lifting is so light like he could do it completely wrong and still be able to get it like it's like it's so matter of

fact the barbell is the five he's got a he's got a two and a half a five and a ten kilo barbell that he can use yeah the one that he was using where the dude was freaking out was a five kilo bar that my one-year-old picked up. My little daughter walked over to it and just picked it up. Now, if she had walked over and picked up a stick, nobody would have said a thing. No. Because it was like metal and it had those pretty little things that spin on them. Whoa. Yeah.

It makes no logical sense, man. Or the same parents that are on me about Rock or about the other kids I coach, they'll go watch their six-year-old play football, tackle football. They run into each other. And you know good and well, those kids are so little,

they don't know how to hit lies because there's always that one kid who's bigger than everyone else absolutely smashing fools. I know because I coached two of them, Tate and Cade Carney, would absolutely thrash kids when they're a six, seven-year-old. And like Tate, this kid, he's going to be a junior in high school next year. When he was seven, smashed a kid in PB football, stood over him and said, stay down. It's best.

A seven-year-old said that. So, like, don't tell me that your kid is not getting smashed. He is. And if you don't think so, come to my town, let him hit these kids. They'll get smashed. Seven? Yeah, seven. Stood above the kid and said, stay down, it's best.

That one for sure. So my point being is, like, the whole argument is illogical. Everyone support like soccer, basketball. And like the studies are just overwhelmingly not in favor of what they're saying. Like soccer like creates more injuries, especially for females, than any other thing. No one says a word. If I take my five-year-old or if i take my one-year-old daughter when she's five and i take magnolia to play soccer everyone's oh how cute she's so cute

playing soccer oh she hurt her knee oh bad luck she if i had her doing weightlifting and she tweaked her knee oh you're an evil dad you guys aren't making any logical dang sense like think about what you're saying before you say it. Slow down. I actually feel like now that we're even just saying this right now, weightlifting might be the safest thing you can possibly do for your kids because there isn't even soccer. Dude, I'm thinking back right now onto me playing hockey, and I think the very first age that you start checking is like nine oh nine years old and that's when you like learn how to like take runs at kids because you don't know how to like you don't understand physicality you're like learning it so when

you see some kid that's in a bad spot, I remember thinking, I'm going to destroy this kid. Just because I recognized he didn't see me coming and I was going to just end him. But I also have been, that's how you learn how not to get hit hard is by getting hit really hard. You go, well, I'm definitely not going to stand in that position anymore. And then you get to a point where it's like you're 10. And I always, I played typically on two teams. So I played on my age group and then the age group that was above me because I had a bunch of friends.

So when they hit puberty at like 12, 13 years old, and I was like 10 and 11, I would get destroyed. I remember getting hit so hard. But if I was a nine-year-old and i had a barbell on my back people be like i don't know you should watch your growth plates i mean like you should watch my brain development exactly what i was gonna say i am i just took a forearm from a grown man as a 10 year old yeah i remember like going like getting hit so hard. Dude, when I tried out for my first, I was like 13 in my very first high school tryout. And I was like so out of place. And when I first showed up to high school, I was just unprepared for a bunch of kids that have been playing hockey their whole life.

I did like this little, I shouldn't have done it. It was really stupid. But I typically didn't play with kids this good that were this old. And I got hit so hard. And it was like the movie scene where my helmet flew off and rolled. But it slid to center ice. I had to peel myself off the ice and head down in shame, go out to center ice get my helmet and go back to the bench and like nobody gives a shit it's like yeah well you're probably not going to make the team today

because you just got your bell rung and you you're either going to skate next shift or you're going to go to jv and but if i had a if like nobody's questioning sports. They only question the training part, which is totally ridiculous. Nobody looked at your dad and said, abusive dad, abusive dad. Yeah. They said a thing to him. No, it's actually the opposite. Like they're growing – you're growing a man. Great job.

Like you just gave a 10-year-old a concussion. Yeah. He doesn't know his own name now. That's okay. Wait, what? Right. Yeah. He can't turn his head his neck is like

you know what's that open wound on his head that's okay i actually only remember getting hit like two or three times and both of them were like they had to have been destructive like it was so bad uh but nobody ever thought like oh maybe we shouldn't do this yeah but when we get into the research because there actually has been studies done it's not just we think kids should be lifting weights like um where where's the research on this are they actually testing kids in weight rooms go to pubman and google resistance training in youth and like find the arc. Dude, I have so many people, like I've had people say, well, the research and I was like, show me, please. Like I'm definitely open minded.

If you show me research that says it's absolutely dangerous and there's no benefits, I'll stop for sure. Zero. I mean like crickets and, or, you know, like just this morning, it's funny that you said let's do resistance training. Literally at 5. AM I'm trying to wake up. I'm looking on my phone. And this is a way that the coach in Germany who's going through this,

she's a really good coach to super educated, same thing. Like, you know, had a doctor say that, that very thing, well, the research and I can show you loads and she's like, all right, awesome. Could you show me? I'd love to see it. Nothing. Then a PT finally gets on there and shows her one article article not a research article article from 1974 then this german lady like lists from all night it was like 2019 2018 all these articles saying no no get off here and then i got on there i said and i listed three more and then i gave her the video then i gave her this magazine that has all this research uh this article that's in a stack

it's not like i'm not saying stack should be your uh go-to source of information but in this article that i listed uh that was filled with research it just the research says um almost like I could give you, like, let me give you, hold on, this one. There's like, I have three. I kept it for this show. So, like, this is resistance training for children and adolescents. This is Allison Myers. This is, like, 2018. And it's all going to show, like, they at either a hundred contact hours or some look at

a thousand but it is like point it's never like one in a hundred hours it's always like that's a ton of time for a kid to be under the microscope too like you think about a hundred hours of training or like being around uh weights for a kid that's 9 to 14 years old 15 years old that's a ton of time a thousand hours seems like an insane amount of time like just even in my own training that's like and then like the old growth plate thing like you know yeah let's let's talk about growth plates because that's going to be the the big one talk about plates at the end of bones there's like a thing called the epiphyseal line and it's like uh for a long time it's like called like spongy bone so it can move you know you got to have something in your bones that allows it to increase in length because you're growing and so some people like if you if you hurt those little

lines you can cause like stunts and growth they would say and so but from what normally those are from horizontal forces they're not from vertical like bones even when they're like in that you know developmental stage are pretty pretty awesome for vertical forces which is what weightlifting powerlifting you know resistance training that's what those forces are it's not good for size so like you know when you're going and playing soccer young young ages or football or any sport, you know, the risk you put is, like, when you plant really hard and, you know, something gives way. That's when you have the epiphyseal line, you know, or growth plates, we'll call it so people understand. That's when you have the injuries there. Mainly it comes from, like, falling, slipping, you know, running and cutting or getting hit from the side.

But like it's rarely like one in a million are going to get some vertical force when a child is in front of a, you know, well-versed coach. That's the key right there, though. And I'll give you that. If a coach is not good and is not looking at movement patterns or has no idea about, you know, biomechanics, then, yeah, you have a problem. But that's every sport. Nobody says anything about the mom and dad out coaching football who have no idea what they're doing, you know, in PB football, which happens all the time.

But I agree. I would not have one of those dudes coaching my son either. So, like, if some schmuck is out coaching PB football, they're not coaching rock and bear. So the only people who I consider to be legit coaches would coach them in anything, gymnastics, football, weightlifting, whatever. But that's the key is like, are they presenting, you know, solid movement patterns? Are the forces vertical in nature?

You know, are they maintaining a neutral spine, which, you know, the whole neutral spine thing is interesting because, you know, the spine is not straight. There are, you know, there's three curves, so you got to maintain those, and those are individual, so it's really tough. But maintaining a pretty, like, I would say a neutral torso, like a vertical torso versus flexion extension. If you do that, you're safe. There's no valgus.

When you have valgus, yeah, there's issues. When you have, you know, major flexion of the spine under a load, that's dangerous. So just do things wisely. Yeah, I mean, you started coaching Morgan when he was like nine years old or something, right? Like he's 16 now? Yes. I showed that video. It doesn't even seem right.

Did you guys ever see that video from nine until now? Yeah, he posted one too. I want to say like a timeline of his his weightlifting career when he started crossfit at nine um but that dude that's the thing that really gets me is like how do you look at someone like morgan and think that i mean one he doesn't look like he's 16 that's i mean now he doesn't't look like he's 16. That's, I mean, now he doesn't actually look like he's 16. When he was 15, he looked like he was 12. Now he looks like he's 22.

Yeah. He's a scary man now. Yeah, but how, you can't really like look at a kid like that and think that this isn't exactly how you should progress somebody to just be a strong. So specifically to the video that you put up of, of rock, like the,

the keyboard, keyboard warrior gets on there and he's like, well, his heels came off the ground and that's not perfect. Dude, kids don't operate like that. Right. They have an amount,

not just flexibility in their tissues and joints and all that, but they've got a movement capacity that is like so flexible because there's no wiring for perfection you tell rock to put his arms over his head and sit down and he just puts his arms over his head and sits down he doesn't know he's not sitting there like an adult going cue the hips back, knees out, sit straight down to my heels, and then push up on the bar, and then I can stand. Adults read a checklist of how to squat, and then that makes them feel good. Kids just move because inside their DNA, it says to move, and they have this brain that has to create the wires and the movement patterns.

There actually isn't a better time probably than Rock's age to get somebody actually thinking about it. That's why when gymnastics or when CrossFit showed up, the best athletes came from high-level Olympic weightlifting and high-level gymnastics. Why? athletes came from high-level olympic weightlifting and high-level gymnastics why because those two sports move know how to move properly it had it had very little i mean froning played baseball but he's probably just the outlier freak that yeah great at everything he touched um but those two sports teach how your body's supposed to move just general kinesthetic awareness of where your body is in space and how to problem solve through movement i think that that's one of the biggest things that when i think about just general movement is like you're kind of yes you want to be lifting weights but teaching movement is really to me just about like right way problem solving like i'm out on this island right now and there's

giant rocks all over the place and i just like to go up and play and and jump all over them because it's like to be athletic you're kind of problem solving in real time by playing sports but if you add an exit if you add a barbell to it people people just freak out i wish they would look at how far rock has come like at the beginning he couldn't do a clean obviously like you know i'm saying hey look you know um at his age a lot of times i use at first i'll say jump then rip under and he could jump he got that part he understood the positions but he couldn't understand that i extend then rip under that's the hard part for everyone and so it was really rough there was he didn't want to go under he was like muscling it up and so like it's like technique-wise if they would look biomechanically

how far he's come which i'll post some og videos from the summer when we first started yeah like and you see oh this this young dude has learned how to move like nobody's business he's gone from he doesn't know anything about his body in space to this dude looks like morgan like he rips under the bar as fast and as furious as morgan now and he's five like he's got zero fear of getting under the bar dude fear fear is a real thing like imagine how many people the people that are like trolling you in a way because they have to know the real answer. They're just saying things to sound cool. Say that to me and see what happens.

Those people are the ones that say lifting weights for adults is dangerous. And now you've got this culture of people that are just terrified to lift weights, whether they're kids or adults because they don't understand how to do it. So they just say, oh, that's scary. You're going to get bruised. He said, in one video, he said, oh, great technique. So he said that. Then he said, but his knees are going past his toes. It's probably because of tight hip flexors and hamstrings.

I'm like, dude, he is five years old. There's nothing tight on his body. And then I was like, and by the way, are you talking about the catch of the clean? I was like, how do you propose that he gets to the bottom of the clean and that not happen? And he doesn't respond. The same dude, I'm like, then I thought, okay, maybe this dude's a clown. He's a troll, but he's not. He's a physical therapist.

But he just like, what happens, here's what this culture has formed. This internet culture, which I love, thank God. All of our families, we get to hang out together. But here's what it's also caused. People like that get like a following, right? And these people, they get these cult-type followings. And these groups of people believe whatever this person says. And somewhere down

the road that person starts to believe their own bs and they're like yeah i am smarter than everyone and yes what i say is truth and then they stop learning and they're like it's just it's what i say so it must be right because these people think i'm right these people are blind followers man like you know you are an idiot like i can't believe these. I can't imagine who your followers are. Wow, what they must be like. But man, don't stop learning. You're a PT. You should be an example to me.

You're a doctor. Keep learning. You're telling me that those few years you spent, what is it? You got four and then say three. You're seven years in school. That's it? You stopped learning? You know everything now.

Wow. You know, that's amazing. You read every book in the world in those seven years. Amazing. You're amazing. Yeah. There seems to be a certain subset of people who think that kids should have perfect technique but never practice bad technique along the way. You can't get to perfect technique until you've done a lot of bad reps. That's just how learning

works. Like you do it wrong for a long time and you gradually get better. And then hopefully within the next decade, you can do it really, really well, but it takes a long time and you have to practice doing it incorrectly, no matter what the skill is. If you're doing backhand springs or swinging a baseball bat, it doesn't matter. And nobody goes to baseball practice and goes, oh, God, look at the technique on that kid, that five-year-old swing. I can't believe you're letting him do that. He's twisting his back.

He is going to hurt himself. Do you understand that they are saying – No one says anything about it. You were saying – Because they understand that five-year-olds at T-ball are practicing. That's how you get good. Right. Like you're saying, sir, that they should walk up there, me as their coach,

I should not let them swing a bat until they're able to swing a perfect swing. Wait now, how do I get there? Or like, so this baseball pitcher out there throwing a million pitches when he's seven, and his elbow's already starting to hurt. And like, are you telling me that's a perfect throw already at seven? So he's got nothing else to learn. So why is the coach out there?

Get out, coach. He's good. This kid's just perfect. And again, this is not a binary thing. This is not like we're saying, okay, it is totally fine to do whatever you want, sport-wise and training-wise, with little kids. We're not saying it's just guaranteed that you can do whatever you want sport-wise and training-wise with little kids. We're not saying it's just guaranteed that you can do whatever you want and your kids will be fine. And they're not necessarily saying, like, you can't train kids at all.

They're going to get hurt. It doesn't have to be so black and white. Like, there's a spectrum of quality and better and worse ways to go about training a little kid. Our argument here, given that we all have a lot of training experience we we see it and we and we understand all the distinctions and we understand the better and worse ways to go about it and we see it we go oh no like we we understand all of the good ways to to scale somebody from knowing nothing to to being a professional and so it doesn't seem unsafe to us because we understand there's no there's there's little unknown compared to someone who doesn't have any experience or or less experience

so right not saying not saying this pt person you know we're not this doesn't have to be about that one person um they may have experience or not but they're they're in the physical therapy world you're you're strength coach and coach. Those worlds cross over somewhere where it's good to know as a strength coach some of the concepts and things that physical therapists know. As a physical therapist,

it's good to know some of the more performance-oriented training that strength coaches do because that is the spectrum. There's the hurt athlete that wants to get better and then there's the mostly healthy athlete that wants to get as good as possible.

And really, those people should be working together. But as a completely healthy athlete, really, he should be looking to the strength coach to make that very healthy athlete into the strongest, most capable athlete that person can become, because he's not hurt. And you are teaching him good technique along the way. Shrug family, we're going to talk about our friends over at organifi taking a little break of the show to talk about the green the red and the gold getting the vitamins

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of gluttonous profit margins. There's a 100% money-back guarantee and free shipping, and you can get over to buylegion.com forward slash shrugged and use the code shrugged at checkout to save 20% on your first order. Buylegion.com forward slash shrugged and use the code shrugged at checkout back to the show and there's so many great pts out there like there's you know aaron from squad university who made a video which i actually posted for this other pt to watch but like you know he posted a video all about it like here's why that stress training is fine he lists the research he shows and he actually breaks down the different joints you know why it's safe and then all about it. Like, here's why that strength training is fine. He lists the research. He shows,

and it actually breaks down the different joints, you know, why it's safe. And then you got Quinn Enoch, also, also the same dude. He understands. You need to understand,

like I, as a strength coach need to understand the PT world somewhat, you know, like you said, there is crossover and I do need to understand like movement patterns and asymmetries. You know, some of the things that they look at to know when it's time for me to say go see the pt and the pt needs to know my side to

know when to say i'm done here you go see travis you know so like you know we do need to understand each other each other's world but then you know when my athlete when i had to deem him and he needs rehab or he needs to like you know fix something i don't need to like you know butt in i don't know about your this your your step ups you're doing for you know strengthening his knees i would do it like this like what do i know about pt world like i don't you know i don't want to be a pt if i did i would be you know but you know like we do need to respect each other know enough about each other and know when really is is it time to go out of my world and into his world. And he needs to know when it's time to go out of his world and into my world

and leave it at that and respect each other. What he could have done was ask me. And then we could have had a great conversation. He could have said, you know, I notice I have always heard that, you know, knees going past toes are wrong. And then I would have given him all this research, and then we would have discussed the sport. And then I would have said, you know, knees going past toes are wrong. And then I would have given him all this research, and then we would have discussed the sport, and then I would have said, you know, how would you suggest?

It's not me being condescending. When I said, look, how do you suggest he sits in the bottom of a clean without his knees going past his toes? It was a way of me – it was trying to get him to think about it. You know, and I'm sure he did think about it. I'm sure he couldn't come up with the answer because there is no possible way you can. And so, and then I think, you know, but then people get so, their pride is more important than learning or admitting, which I've had plenty of people in these debates be like, you're right.

That is powerful. And even like, I haven't brought up Gary Vee in a long time, but I'll bring him up. But he constantly says, you know, the ability to change your mind is the most powerful tool you have. And like, you know, I'm always changing my mind. If someone were to present evidence of why it's bad, then I probably would stop. But all the evidence I've read is quite the opposite. It shows all the benefits. Even the strengthening of bones and making that process a much smoother process, the whole growth.

The key is like this. Go ahead. sorry i thought you're done go ahead and finish i was just gonna say the keys to it let's go away from like is it good i think we've made our point like you know when we're done i'm gonna send you like a bunch of research and some things that people can read we'll put it in the show notes. Right, right. But the point, here are some things you need to consider. Always be submaximal. You know, the movement is the key. Like, I'm looking at Rock's movement more than anything, and it'll stay submaximal until, and it will

stay submaximal probably until after puberty. But he is going to compete next year. We're going to do his first weightlifting next year. I've actually asked Phil Andrews for a pass on him getting to start a little early. But even the competition will be some maximal. It's just my way of introducing him to the competition and what it's like to do this in front of three judges and a bunch of people.

But then the other keys when you're training youth, yeah, do a bunch of things. I'm not going to focus on weightlifting now. At five years old until he's 18, we're only weightlifting? No way. We're going to do gymnastics. He's already played baseball. We're going to try basketball. If he wants to play football, we will, but I'll probably hold off.

Even me as a parent on football, I'm concerned. I don't see the benefits of peewee football, you know, that some people might see. I would probably wait until middle school and on, you know, because you're going to get too many horizontal forces based on the evidence. And if you look at the injury risks of football, they're high. And if you look at the injury risk of kids starting before seventh grade, their risk of concussion later on, say in college and in pros, is much higher than people who waited until middle school and on to start playing football.

So that's me basing it. And I love football, man. I love – I'm going to make a statement that's going to blow people away. I love football more than weightlifting. Like, I do. I love – the sport of football is like – I love it. Like, there's nothing like putting on your uniforms with the rest of your dues and, you know, going Friday night to battle out another team.

But because of the risk and because of the research, I'll wait until middle school. There you go. Yeah. Go ahead. Well, I was just sitting here thinking about Morgan Zierb, one of your superstars that we talk about very frequently. And you started training him when he was nine. Is that correct? Nine. And now he's him when he was nine. Is that correct? And now he's 16 and he fucking cleaning jerks 440 or whatever he's cleaning jerks.

More than everyone else, yeah. Right. So it's a goal-oriented thing. If you have someone that you catch early and they have some talent for some sport and they want to go to the Olympics in 10 years, where are you going to train that kid much differently? Oh. Oh, Oh,

you're back. Yeah, but I'm sure you had it. So it's all right. So I was saying, I was comparing training someone who wants to go to the Olympics, you know, from when they're nine years old to,

you know, when they're in their early twenties and they're going to the Olympics, especially in a strength sport like weightlifting, versus if someone shows up, nine-year-old kid, parents are like, well, we just don't want little Johnny to play video games. We want him to be healthy. Can you just teach him to move?

Like, okay, you're going to train that kid completely different. But Travis is training kids that want to be national champions and that want to go to the Olympics. Well, I also think those kids just show up differently too. Like if a kid that's just getting off the couch for the first time, he's not coming in and just like gnawing on barbells like Morgan was when he was 11 years old.

That kid's going to look around and be all scared. There's a timidness that like – and I think that that's actually like a really important part of the conversation is like eliminating just like – so you guys were on such a good rant – not rant, but you guys were on such a good thing there. I didn't jump in. But when my sister started playing softball, she went to her very first pitching coach. And her pitching coach basically told her, I'm going to teach you how to get your arm to go in the circle the right way. But I want you to throw the ball as hard as you possibly can every single time.

Because you have a window in which you can teach your arm the speed and we can deal with accuracy later. It's like if you were to swing a golf club for the first time, you're not going to be like, I'm just going to try and do half swings for the first. Swing it hard. Yeah. It takes a long time to be able to develop speed and power. And you have to signal to your brain and your body, it's time to get after it. So her coach for multiple years, and I was the catcher when she was throwing freaking lightning and it would bounce three feet in front of me over and over and over again that would just get beat up but her coach would be like no this is how we do it we teach her to throw hard and then we can teach accuracy later accuracy is a

much easier thing when you've failed hundreds and hundreds of thousands of times and but you can't teach speed later on once you've once you've missed that window, and for girls, they hit puberty at 12, 13, 14. And if you're not throwing 60 by the time in softball, I think she started, I want to say it was 60 or 70. I don't know the exact numbers. It was a while ago. But I mean, she ended up going to college to be a pitcher, and that was the first five or six years of her actually training. The coach was just like, go hard. There is no halfway right now.

You have to throw the ball as hard as you possibly can every time. And then we're at Titleist. Have you guys ever heard of TPI, Titleist Performance? It's mainly golf, but it's for rotational athletes is what most people don't understand. They're really good at rotational athletes. But I'm trying to remember the Mark Rose. Right. Wow.

Anyway, he's like the VP. I think he might actually be the president or CEO, whatever. Anyway, so I went to a seminar with him, and he was talking about the research on that very thing. There's two windows for boys and two for girls and one being a neural adaptation. The other one is more of a neuromuscular adaptation

and then it's a wrap. What you got, you got. You might get a mile or two here and there, but you're either fast or you're not fast, you know. I think it has to do with speed in general, but, like, they were talking more rotational, but speed in general. So, you either, like, go all out. I think boys is, like, younger, like, I don't want to say.

Here's what I'm thinking. I'm pretty sure it's like 7-9 for boys and maybe 9-11 for a girl, for the funeral, and then later on. Then girls, it's only a couple more years before it's muscular. Boys, it's a long time before it's muscular. I want to say with my sister, it was exactly in that 9-11 range when she got her first pitching coach. The guy was just like look i don't care where the ball fucking ends up you throw it as hard as you possibly can every single time

yeah and that i mean there's just only one way to figure out how to do that you just hurl that thing as hard as you can and we'll work on it we'll talk about it i would get beat to shit i would get beat up so bad having a softball come flying in and no one knows where it's going, spinning all over the place. You're like, can you get to be 12 already? Can you just maybe a little bit of accuracy? I feel like a lot of these discussions are like they're a values conflict in a way. It's like this other person is saying it's all about being as healthy as possible, pain-free, feeling good. And then you have the other person on the other side, Travis in this case, like, I'm trying to win.

I'm trying to be the best. If you talk to anyone who's the best in aggressive sports, like, their body doesn't feel amazing all the time. Is there a non-aggressive sport? Fighting in the UFC, being in the NFLfl these are not things that you do because you think they are healthy for your body these are things you do because you love them because it just is really really fun you get you get status and prestige um you you get a phenomenal sense of accomplishment like big challenges and you talk to guys like like ronnie coleman was on on rogan very recently and he is just beyond fucked up.

He's had so many surgeries. He needs help walking around. He has a wheelchair sometimes. He has crutches sometimes. He's had many back surgeries and hip surgeries. He is a mess, but if you talk to him, he's like, I wouldn't take that shit back for anything. He is so stoked about what he did and who he believes he is for doing those things that

his body's messed up and he's in a lot of pain and has spent a lot of money trying to keep his body, trying to minimize the pain that he's going through by having surgery and whatnot. But he chose to do that. He chose to be the best. and there's a downside to putting your body through what it takes to be the best and so it's just it's a trade-off you can choose to to take it to the end and be the best you know if you're if you're lucky enough to actually get to the place where you are the best um or you can just say no i just want to feel good and be healthy and that's totally fine to do as well you don't have to try to be the. You know, we don't try to be the best at most things. You're not trying to be the best computer programmer or the best sailboat captain or whatever it is.

Like, you're not trying to be the best at everything. You're trying to be the best at one or two things that you're super passionate about. And there are inherent risks to doing that. You do what you need to do to get there. And you try to manage and minimize um the the risks along the way there has to be a king of the jungle everywhere yeah and if you're trying to if you're trying to grow the king of the jungle there's a different there's a different course there's a different path to get there and um one one path is like morgan where he comes in and he just

dominates yeah and every day he shows up to the training hall at a national meet. He front squats 500 and tells everybody to go home before we even – Yeah, I win. Don't worry, guys. Thanks for showing up and watching me work out today. But curious, which one of you guys are getting second? I'm curious. Or not even second.

Say this person who's very concerned about getting injured starts training a nine-year-old. At the same time, you start training a nine-year-old. They're twins or whatever it is in this fictitious example. Whose athlete is going to win when they're 15 and when they're 20? Oh, my athlete is going to rip this athlete's head off. Yeah. He's going to literally grab that kid's head and pull it off right away. He's going to make the softest – I'm getting – I'm going too far.

No, don't. I'm just saying he's going to create a soft human. Yeah. I'm only going to add on. In fact, I think one of the coolest parts about um playing ice hockey this is like one of my favorite parts that of the sport that people just like they just assume everyone's playing hockey but what they don't realize is like there's on a hockey team there's like three to five if you have like a great team there's like maybe five people that can score a

goal the rest of the people are out there to just make sure those five people don't get fucked with. And if you get through like the next 10 people and someone's still fucking with those five people at the end of the bench, there's one guy that you really don't want to get on the ice, but he is going to take your head off. I love this so much. And he is going to come at you. And he's going to step on the ice and go, I'm going to beat the shit out of you right now if you touch that guy one more time. Yeah. And if you go and touch that guy, he is going to bash your face in.

I want to be that guy. And nobody understands that about hockey. Yeah. And the reason is because the is because you're not just being playful right now this is like this is like on every team this is a single team yeah like your first so there's four lines and in the very first line all those people can score goals on your second line some of those people can score goals on the your second line, some of those people can score goals. On the third line, your job

is to make sure that you tire everybody out and you don't get scored on. And on the fourth line, your job is to make sure that the first line and the second line have plenty of space on the ice to do what they need to do. So if the fourth line shows up on the ice, everybody on the other team just goes,

oh, shit. We're getting beaten up. Yeah, because that line is only good at running people through the boards. That's beautiful. That's all they do. And people don't understand. If you're going to do that, I love hockey. I never played football, but I love hockey because it teaches the king of the jungle.

The team that's the meanest quite often wins. And I think that's universal for every sport. Sure. When you watch weightlifting, you don't clean and jerk 400 plus pounds in a friendly way, in the same manner that you are like ordering coffee at starbucks and talking to your barista no you walk up to the bar and you're attacking it like a savage yes and i i i don't think people enjoy thinking about aggression and i don't think that they enjoy practicing aggression but it's one of the most important things to me that has come out of weightlifting it was like being able to target aggression or being able to practice it in a manner and i i'm kind of glad i don't do mma

because or like had that time in my life because like i would have gone down the rabbit hole in the same way that I did CrossFit. But like those people, like Doug, what a friendly human being. And then he beats your face in. Yeah. It's possible. Yeah. He has the potential. That's what I love about it. You have the potential.

You become a nice person because at any point, if somebody wanted to escalate something, you just go just go dude you just don't want to do that because i have a switch and if you click that switch it's over yeah and if you really keep messing with our first and second line superstars on the hockey team there's a dude down at the end of the bench that has a switch that is scary and you don't want to deal with that. It's dark. And when I think about Adelaide, and she's two years old, but I don't want her to go onto the soccer field thinking, oh, this is so pretty, I'm going to get the flowers. I want everyone to know that they better get out of the way. Adelaide's on the field. At any point, we can escalate this thing.

It doesn't mean we have to fight, but there's a ball, and I want it a little bit more than you. So you might hit it on the ground. Yeah, there's a chance you might cry right now, and I won't feel bad about it. Because someone's got to be the king of the jungle. You know what's funny? I was thinking if Doug and I were in a bar,

and somebody was getting out of control, they're drinking a lot, and they're looking for a fight, they look at me and they look at Doug. Meanwhile, Doug's calculating what he's about to do to this guy. And they look at me and they're like, ah, this big burly dude. He's probably tough.

And they fight Doug. And then they get absolutely pummeled. As they're getting pummeled, I would look at them and be like, you should have chosen me, man. Bad choice. You had a way better chance. Well, Doug is like so relaxed and laughing and smiling as he's breaking their limbs, choking them out, elbowing their face, smiling the whole time.

I'm like, bro, you should have chosen me, man. I would have just punched you. But now you don't have any arms left. But, yeah. The chances of me getting in a bar fight these days are pretty low. I know. It would be fun. I haven't been in a big fight in a while.

Yeah, that would be sick. I actually do think that the higher your potential to inflict violence on somebody, like the better you are at fighting, just the nicer you have the potential to be and the less likely you are to actually get into a fight. Totally. If you're very confident in your abilities, then you're not scared of people in the same way.

If you're not scared, then it's so much easier to be rational when you end up in conflict. It's when people get scared or they want to prove themselves for whatever reason. That's when bad things happen. But the better you are at fighting, if you meet a lot of really good fighters, they're very humble and they're super nice. And they also realize,

because they train with fucking killers every day, that there's lots of people out there that know what to do. There's lots of people out there that are very good and very tough, and they know a lot of people that don't look tough that are very aggressive and very tough and could and could absolutely destroy you oh that one dude what does that do that's training

at cal strength now he's mma he's like awesome uh he actually beat um what's the irish guy everybody loves um he actually was the irish connor connor this guy beat connor like he's a bad boy. He doesn't look like anything, but he's a killer. Trains of kill strength? Now he does, yeah. Is it Khabib? No, no. No, no. It's an American guy.

He's like a redneck. He beat Conor, but his face was bloody, but he just kept coming. Oh, the tall guy? Yeah, he's kind of tall and no muscle at all. Yes, yes, yeah. That guy, you'd be like. I just want the whole audience to know I got an MMA UFC trivia question right before Doug did.

I know. It said PR hardcore. My most recent PR is better trivia in UFC. Diaz would be the first guy you'd choose. I know Nate lives in Sacramento, which is fairly close to Cal Strength. It's in NorCal, but I was like,

there's no way Nate Diaz is training at Cal Strength. There's no way. Khabib probably trains in San Jose all the time. That's pretty close. I was like, it's got to be Khabib. There's no way Nate Diaz is training over there. Nate Diaz is training with Cal Strength. That's rad rad imagine if he actually gets some muscle like good god he's gonna like yeah he's good anyway that's my that was my

oh mash i actually want to oh go ahead doug oh i was gonna cycle this all back to to lifting weights for youth me too like i view i view lifting weights as simply loading archetypical movement patterns. Right. That's what lifting weights is. It's movement patterns that everyone should be able to do, and you load them, and you get stronger in those movement patterns. Yeah. And so if someone says you shouldn't lift weights, I go, that's impossible because every time I stand up from a chair, I'm doing resistance training. I'm doing a bilateral squat.

I'm contracting my muscles. My joints and bones, et cetera, are experiencing loads. You can't get around it. So lifting weights is just practicing doing better and better movement and getting stronger and stronger. Again, there's better and worse ways to go about doing that. But to say that you shouldn't do it is ridiculous. You should do it. You should do it at the appropriate level for your abilities, your range of motion,

how much volume you can tolerate, how well you can recover, etc. There's many factors there. But at some level, I feel anyone on the planet can participate in some type of resistance training and benefit from it if it's done well i agree you know and like uh weightlifting in general is a maximal in nature like you when you do a clean or a snatch it's not maximal even when you miss it it's just like you just couldn't create enough power to get it to where you want it but like you can lift it you know like a deadlift or a squat create enough power to get it to where you want it. But you can lift it. Like a deadlift or a squat, you can get to where it's maximal and you just can't lift it.

But if people just understand that weightlifting is power. It's not necessarily force. It's how fast I can move something. Force is just lifting a big mass as fast as you can, but it's not going to go fast. It's like can you overcome this object? Whereas power is how fast can I overcome an object. It's, you know, as fast as you can, but it's not going to go fast. It's like, can you overcome this object? Whereas power is how fast can I overcome an object. It's totally different. So you're never in that maximal world.

And we don't do maximal squats. You know, we're doing cleans and we do front squats, but it's the same way he's doing the clean with and we're looking at the way he does it. So you're never getting maximal. So you're not anywhere near a maximum load there's a better chance of when they go in your backyard mr pt that your son or daughter picks up a rock and that's more maximal than what rock is doing in my in a controlled environment with me watching him but yeah actually go ahead i'll cut you off one more time we're all so excited to go uh i feel like with the one rep max thing if you if you take a you say, hey, can you do a pull-up? And the kid ekes out one and a half pull-ups, you go, hey, good job, Johnny.

Nice work. And no one goes, dude, you just had him do a one rep max? No one says shit. And there's reasons they don't, but there's reasons they should. If one rep maxes are so bad and high forces are going to hurt your damage, your growth plates, and so therefore your long bones aren't going to grow to be as long as they would have otherwise, then you should, anytime a kid does a push-up or a pull-up

or whatever a difficult movement is for their upper body, you should be making the same argument. But people don't. They only make the argument when there's a bar in their hand, regardless of the movement pattern. It's like a barbell bias in a way. It's a barbell bias. Barbell bias.

Nobody says shit to gymnasts though. That's the name of the show, Barbell Bias for sure. Mash, I'm actually super interested just in – if you were to kind of lay out just a high level. You mentioned that people aren't – are going to be doing like-maximal loads for a very long time. How long did it take working with Morgan or just any of your athletes, because the majority of them are youth, before you actually started testing a maximal load in squat or anything, really? That's a good question, because what we did, even though he was competing at like 10, 11, 12, it was like he was going six for six every time.

So I would not have, I don't think that I was a 1RM. And when we tested his squat, he'd always make it. We wouldn't go to a true 1RM. But it was well, you know, I think when he turned 15 is when we finally started to turn it up a notch, you know. And we started to like try to a notch, you know, and we started to, like, try to go for, you know, teams, and we started pushing a little bit. But I felt confident.

By the time he was 15, his movement was perfect. You know, like, I feel like he was very structured, and I feel like, you know, his growth plates were getting close. And we're just going to be smart. We're not going to try to put him in a bad position. We're not going to try to have, you know, a lot of flex him in a bad position. We're not going to try to have a lot of flexion in the spine still, but we're going to start to push it. Up until 15, it was

very much controlled. There was no misses. He might have missed. There was a span of three or four years where he had one miss in national meets. That was just a fluke. It wasn't because it's too

heavy he just made a mistake but so he hadn't so prepared and dialed in for when 15 hit because uh even with 15 yet he was going five or six six for six you know four for six was a bad day that's what you want for youth you want them used to going six for six five for six you know because whatever they get used to here's here's something for the weightlifting coaches. Whatever they get used to at that age, they'll probably have for the rest of their life. You got to be very careful. Like, I'm not naming any names,

but I've had athletes in the past who came to me after and, like, they never got past it. Like, a four for six was like a, that was a big day that they rarely had. But it was typically three for six, two for six. And it was just, they had formed those patterns and that, you know, the was typically three for six, two for six. It was just they had formed those patterns and the way they thought about it, approached the bar well before they got to me

and just psychologically I couldn't get through to them. How much volume is, I mean, I imagine, the majority of kids are probably going to start finding the weight room. I mean, if you have any interest, judging by the people that we hang out with and talk to, if you have any interest in being a professional or having your kids be a professional strength coach at some point in their life, the best thing to do is probably get them lifting at like 13 years old. Right. And I feel like everybody that has made it anywhere and gotten through the difficulties of being a strength coach, they started when they were 13 14 years old learning yeah they just uh it just takes a long time to be able to do this thing um time in the bar that's what Dave Tate talks about all

the time he thinks that's way more important than like um you know the science of it or you know like uh what you might learn in some certification. To a degree, I agree with them, but I think you need both. I think you need the science because right now, more than ever, there's so much crap on the Internet. Like what if I didn't know science and some PT said that? I'd be like, oh, no. I'd be like most parents probably.

I'm like, oh, he's a physical therapist. That's who I'm supposed to look to to, like, not get my kid hurt or to, like, get them healthy. So if I didn't know any kind of science, you know, you need to know a little bit about physics, a little bit about anatomy and physiology, and a little bit about biomechanics are the minimum requirements to being a coach, in my opinion. Then Tom and Herb are, you know, that would play. That would probably be even, those two together. But you can't have one without the other, in my opinion, then Tom and her bar, you know, that would play. That would probably be even, those two together. But you can't have one without the other, in my opinion. Yeah, and I think if you're a parent listening to this and your kid is, you know, interested and has been seeing you in the gym or whatever it is and is interested,

just stay in like the 8 to 10 to 12 and go do some research into the repetition method of just getting a bar on their back or doing super light weights and and moving but there doesn't even if you're doing a set of eight it doesn't need to be some giant grueling set i mean barbell i yeah i don't think that the way that i like my first day of lifting weights would be an intelligent approach to anything but i per usual just got thrown into the into the into the mix with somebody that was like way too aggressive and i was training with the 13 years old i was training with the high school wrestling team and it was like but put this bar on your back and go

do lunges around the track that's not what you need to do that's that's too much but yeah you don't need to train to failure to true failure at all with kids you're just you're just practicing perfect movement under some amount of load but you don't need to train to failure you don't need to you don't need to train to a true max we've talked about you know already uh earlier in the show you need to practice movement though that's that is very important but you don't need to take it to the end when they're 7, 8, 10 years old. You probably shouldn't even tell your kids that they're training. It should

just be like, let's go to the gym and play. That's what rocks. Exactly. Boy, that's the best part of the show. That's like what Dan John says. For kids, he says the warm-up is the workout. You take them through all their range of motion. You take them through all their bodyweight calisthenics, et cetera, et cetera.

Like that is what we kind of consider to be a warm-up. But that's a great workout for a kid when they're just learning and they're young. Yes. We only go about 15 minutes with Rock. It's like 15 minutes of something. We might do a few overhead squats, a few jerk presses from the split, and then we'll do a few cleans because that's his favorite. Then he's done.

And then he's playing. Then he's like then he's like climbing running jumping throwing you know yeah doing he does on the farm yeah um you just said you just said farm i just thought of like what about like farm kids like kids that like bale hay for pe you know i mean like like kids that kids that are out there like doing doing real real work. Um, not, not like, not like my kids, like scooter and ride their bikes all day, but like kids that like grow up on a farm and they're like, they're like, they're, you know, they're, they're, they're, you know, I don't know what, I don't know what you do on a farm besides, besides bale hay and feed cows,

feed horses, you know, feed the chickens, constantly carrying buckets of things yeah big heavy things like no one says shit about any of that stuff because because they're just doing work they're just they're just getting it done it's not sports and so now now loading isn't even considered unless they come to you and they say they have an injury you go okay well you know we'll switch it up just so you're not making something worse but but they're not like all of a sudden like, oh, nope, too dangerous. Too dangerous to be on a farm. Think about how jacked you would be after your like 10,000th bale of hay

that you've thrown on a truck. Yes. Like a 300-pound clean after your hips moved that efficiently would just be nothing. Don't people understand that work is nothing but force? With the distance that you're doing that force, times how fast you did it. Come on now. Come on.

You just said how fast you did it. Do you do velocity-based maxes with youth? I feel like if you're like, what's your max at, 0.8 meters per second or whatever it is. That would be a good idea would be would be better if you want to be able to track progress just like you would track progress on a one rep that's a great idea if you just had all your kids do velocity based maxes they're not actually going to true max but they can see that they are getting stronger and making progress at a specific velocity that That's a beautiful thing, and that will start today. I have rock.

It'll be on my flex unit today. Actually, that's good advice for older cats like ourselves as well. Once you're not cheating anymore in your 30s, 40s, 50s, and beyond, velocity-based maxes are probably better than true one-rep maxes as far as health goes. Because again, we are actually training mostly for health these days for ourselves and we're not training to compete and so our training can be more conservative because we we have the goal of health and not the goal of of being the best and we're the actual strongest 55 year old yeah no i don't even if we would like to, I don't want to have any masters. Even if we would like to be. I don't want to be a masters.

I think – I just – yeah, I want to train. I'd rather just train, play around a little bit, and do, like you said, like velocity. I've really enjoyed that. It's kept me – I only had one day that I went off the wagon of velocity, and that was Sunday. I cleaned 150 on Friday, so 330, and I was all excited. I started training by myself on Sunday and I tried 160 like 352 and it

effed my knee up it's okay now I just had to rest it put me right back on the wagon and so I'm like alright velocity it is so I just had that one moment of like the old me and I'm like I can do 60 right now I can do this and it blew me up the old me, and I'm like, I could do 60 right now.

I could do this. And it blew me up, shot me out like a bullet. Boom. Travis Mash, where can they find you? Mashley.com. If you want to see this argument, go to, I wouldn't say argument, this debate, or domination maybe. Anyway, go to LinkedIn, and I'll show you that domination. I love it.

Doug Larson. Right on. You can find me on Instagram, DougBCLarson. I'm Anders Varner, at Anders Varner. We're Barbell Shrugged, at Barbell underscore Shrugged. Get over to BarbellShrugged.com forward slash store. That is where all the e-books, programs, nutrition, and mobility to make strong people stronger. We will see you guys next week. That's a wrap, my friends.

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