Barbell Shrugged - [Training= Rehab] Movement Evaluations for Pain and Performance w/ Dr. Charlie Wiengroff, Anders Varner, Doug Larson, Coach Travis Mash and Dr. Andy Galpin #681

Episode Date: February 8, 2023

Dr. Charlie Weingroff is one of the most sought-after professionals world-wide in physical therapy and athletic performance. He is a Doctor of Physical Therapy, a Certified Athletic Trainer, and a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist who has worked with countless A-List celebrities, professional athletes, as well as the general population.   Charlie is currently based in the West Palm Beach, Florida area with facilities in Jupiter, FL, Palm Beach Gardens, FL, Boynton Beach, FL, Boca Raton, FL, Coral Springs, FL, Fort Lauderdale, FL, Miami, Manhattan, NYC and surrounding areas.   Charlie is currently Physical Performance Lead and Head Strength & Conditioning Coach for the Canadian Men’s National Basketball Team, which currently tops all foreign countries with a total of 20 active players in the NBA. He often lectures overseas often, and his relationship with Beijing Yanding Trading Company has brought him through mainland China for the last 5 years.   Previous roles Charlie has held have been Nike Executive Performance Council, Lead Physical Therapist for the United States Marine Corps Special Operations Command, Head Strength & Conditioning Coach for the Philadelphia 76ers in the NBA, and Director of Athletic Development for the Roddick-Grunberg Tennis Academy.    Charlie has consulted for teams in all major North American sports as well as Manchester United and Manchester City in the English Premier League.   To learn more, please go to https://rapidhealthreport.com   Connect with our guests: Connect with Dr. Charlie Wiengroff Website Facebook Twitter Instagram   Anders Varner on Instagram Doug Larson on Instagram Coach Travis Mash on Instagram Dr. Andy Galpin on Instagram  

Shrug family, this week on Barbell Shrug, we're hanging out with Dr. Charlie Weingroff. And he took some time out of his schedule because he's at the Super Bowl right now working on people. He's a physical therapist. They like good physical therapists, especially going to be at the Super Bowl. So he's a busy man, but he took an hour out of his schedule this morning so that he could come and hang out with us. And it really walked through kind of in the early stages of the show. We talk a lot about just like keeping people that get in car wrecks 25 miles an hour over and over and over again every Sunday, like an NFL player, how he gets people ready for game days. We talk a lot about his process and what he looks at and kind of understanding human movement and where people's deficiencies are and

how to get them ready for game days. And then just really some of the techniques that he uses in his practice and working with elite level athletes, which is always cool, especially in football. The idea of a physical therapist in the NFL is kind of like a strange thing because those people are so banged up every single second of every day after an NFL season to get all the way to the end of, to get to the Super Bowl. You have to play just an unbelievable number of games and the physical contact plus travel. So I would imagine he's extremely busy right now this week getting people prepped for Sunday. As always, friends, if you want to watch Dan Garner and Dr. Andy Galpin, breakdown labs,

performance and lifestyle optimization protocols, you can head over to rapidhealthreport.com. Get in there, watch the two bad scientists get to work and do their thing. You can find that over at rapidhealthreport.com. Friends, let's get into the show. Welcome to Barbell Shrugged. I'm Anders Varner. We've got a full house today. Doug Larson, Coach Travis Mash, Dr. Andy Galpin, the most famous man in all of the podcast land right now. On earth. On earth. Literally in the world. Number one every Wednesday. And Charlie Weingraff. Charlie, you're coming today. You're peeling yourself away from the Super Bowl to come hang out with us on Barbell Shrug today.

I'd love to dig in. What do you do when you roll into Super Bowl two weeks and you got to get some of the best athletes in the world ready to go after they just played, what, 17 games and you're prepping them for number 18 right now? Basically getting in a car wreck every 30 seconds.

Hold on, hold on. So you're Canadian, right? Who's that, me? That's Dan. No, that's Dan Garneau, the other bald guy. The other good-looking bald man on our team. Because in American football, so there's 17 regular season games,

but then there's playoff games. So it's more than 17. Sometimes I have daydreams where I sit down and watch a four-hour-long football game without kids ruining it. And then 30 seconds later, my one-year-old has ripped a chunk of red hair out of my daughter's head. And I go, I'm definitely not going to have 30 seconds to myself ever again. I haven't watched a football game in forever. I watch them very often from many different locations. And I'll tell you, whether it's a Super Bowl or not, what I probably –

I don't do anything really different when I show up. And actually, it's different maybe for different sports. But in football, for the guys that I work with on a regular basis, it is very regular. It's literally every week. But what we would do this week to play, you know, to whatever we would do to prepare to play on Sunday, it's not going to be different than week four, week 10 or the bye week. So I'd say there's different categories of of of the different

players that i work with because i can sometimes i can be two places at once i can't be three but um there are players that i'll work with on monday tuesday sometimes sunday night monday uh depending on when the game ends what we would like to say, and I think this is football culture terminology, you wipe the game off as much as you possibly can. And then other guys, and obviously for the Super Bowl, I work with multiple players on one of the teams where we're just looking to top it off or whatever the word would be to just feel as good, whether it's subjectively, but quite frankly, if a player feels as relaxed in there and as loose as possible, whether it's a highly scientific way to describe it,

the most degrees of freedom to move to make plays, they feel that they can get into as many different positions as as possible to be able to to make plays get out of the way tip a ball with their hands you know get enough of a hand on somebody so uh for for the for the guys that i have the most robust relationship the the methods are are whatever some players like different things more than others. If there is an injury or something that's ringing the bell, we'll look at that first and see whatever we need to do. But this is something that they would typically play through.

If there's something that's really going to miss games, and we're not dealing with any of that right now for the Super Bowl but recently we have regarding certain players that are playing quite well and as they run into the Super Bowl there's a lot of management involved whether it's communicating with the agent different teams I communicate very very well with other teams I'm persona non grata and sometimes that's the decision of the player sometimes the team just doesn't receive well that their superstar player is working with someone else and that's just human nature um it unfortunately that is not in the best interest of the player but we have to integrate it

because you can't make people do what they're not going to do and that really sucks because other times i was gonna say maybe you should tell people that you know like what that you're not you're the you're a personal strength coach versus like oh yeah yeah i think everybody listening right now might not know you know so okay so so yeah good good good catch um so so right now um i i i work prime i work for the player. So when you hear about a player having a guy, I'm the guy. So, yeah, so I-time employee of the team to be, you know, in the facility, in the hotel. It's just, it's just incredibly rare. I think in fact, yesterday it was when,

when Sean Payton talk was talking about his policies and procedures that he's bringing to the Broncos, he will not be allowing Russell Wilson's group of staff to be in the facility. A player of Russell Wilson status, blah, blah, blah, I'll smirk, but he would have his own people. And I have had that opportunity in multiple teams. And again, it's typically working with a superstar level player like russell wilson where i have been uh afforded that opportunity uh i would like to think and and i and i think i i have been complimented particularly by the gm of certain teams um that

that did allow this like we'd be stupid to not have you here because i i wouldn't only work with my guys i'm i'm like a staff member and and i try to shake hands and kiss babies and be the person that that isn't going to cause trouble uh when i think sometimes when you work for a superstar player you feel you can do whatever you want and you still you're a guest in someone's house, basically. Yeah, right. And with one team, that actually transitioned into getting paid by the players and by the team. And it just worked because if you just act right, basically. But I, you know, because the players would feel like part of why I would get hired is for them to win

games i mean everybody gets paid when you win games so if i'm sitting around doing nothing which does an nfl work day is very fragmented where you know offense will be in meetings and then defense doesn't really have much to do other than relax you know maybe that's their weight room time etc so if i worked with other players i'm like i never i also would never charge them there's some stories of of guys that would be that would have their own guy like in new england where they would actually charge the other players and shake them down to um and of course that came to an end eventually. So yeah, that's actually true. So I don't mind saying it, but I would never charge other people.

And so things would get on very, very well. But with the teams I work with now, that is not. And COVID had a lot to do with it a couple of years ago where then it was just not practical to have anybody in the building that somehow didn't have what's known as tier one status. So I work with the players at their house and or if there's a private gym that we somehow need access to. So that's the color of what I do. And it's very, very easy in these situations, because I truly do represent the player. But that doesn't mean my values are 100% mine. I represent the player's values. And I would always say that I don't ever, I do what my employer wants. And my role is simply to provide them what maybe what they're paying for is my risk reward analysis of all situations. So if I think

that there's a better way to do something than what the team is providing, I tell my player, I tell the agent, you know, if we have staff on the ground, which we do in some players, or I might be the guy on the ground if it's a more local situation. And we just talk about it. And I'm like, this is why I think this is a bad idea. And you can, that's very easy to see how that can be received in not such a good way by the team. Oh, yeah. But I don't, but I would always say, I don't care. Like, I want my player to play every single game. I want them to earn every single dollar.

Like there's that's how I think this isn't. You know, I could take a very different thought process. You know, obviously, the bulk of my full time pro sports opportunities was in the NBA where players don't care if they play. Like it's that season is so long. the culture is such where the way contracts are, these guys just sit. And sometimes there's some sense into load management. But load management in American football is dramatically different because you'll get cut. Contracts are so convoluted that some guys that are middle, even middle tier, middle up tier still have player game bonuses.

Meaning if they don't play in a game, one game, there's a lot of money that they don't make. But I want my players to play at all costs, but then they decide, or maybe the agent decides, like, I have zero, it doesn't even matter to me what the team says, you know, hopefully, yeah, yeah, it doesn't matter. Now, a lot of times when you have great relationships with people, then your values of how you look at human performance and risk reward, they're relatively aligned. So everybody's in the same boat, you know, where these things don't always have to be this ugly, ugly situation. And I don't, you know, again, I work, sometimes I work just as hard at those social components. So with one of, you know, I only have players on one of the team. I would get on brilliantly well with their strength and conditioning coach and staff um but not the medical so it's you know and then you know different organizations have different cultures where if if a player has a

an injury distinction the the strength and conditioning staff is not allowed to touch them. Or I'm like, yo, can you just do this? And they're like, you know how it is. I'm like, okay, okay. Then that's the recipe that we have to work with. Shrug family, I want to take a quick break. If you are enjoying today's conversation,

I want to invite you to come over to rapidhealthreport.com. When you get to rapidhealthreport.com, you will see an area for you to come over to rapidhealthreport.com. When you get to rapidhealthreport.com, you will see an area for you to opt in, in which you can see Dan Garner read through my lab work. Now, you know that we've been working at Rapid Health Optimization on programs for optimizing health. Now, what does that actually mean? It means in three parts, we're going to be doing a ton of deep dive into your labs. That means the inside out approach. So we're not going to be guessing your macros. We're going to be doing a ton of deep dive into your labs. That means the inside out approach. So we're not going to be guessing your macros. We're not going to be guessing

the total calories that you need. We're actually going to be doing all the work to uncover everything that you have going on inside you. Nutrition, supplementation, sleep. Then we're going to go through and analyze your lifestyle. Dr. Andy Galpin is going to build out a lifestyle protocol based on the severity of your concerns. And then we're going to also build out all the programs that go into that based on the most severe things first. This truly is a world-class program. And we invite you to see step one of this process

by going over to rapidhealthreport.com. You can see Dan reading my labs, the nutrition and supplementation that he has recommended that has radically shifted the way that I sleep, the energy that I have during the day, my total testosterone level, and just my ability to trust and have confidence in my health going forward. I really, really hope that you're able to go over to rapidhealthreport.com, watch the video of my labs, and see what is possible. And if it is something that you're able to go over to rapidealthreport.com, watch the video of my labs and see what is possible. And if it is something that you are interested in, please schedule a call with me on that page. Once again, it's rapidealthreport.com and let's get back to the

show. I want to jump in and get into the kind of like the, when we hung out in Fullerton at Galpin and Dan's seminar out there. And I actually saw you speak at Perform Better a couple of years back. And you're one of these awesome practitioners that has literally a library of resources and ability to kind of diagnose things, maybe not diagnose, but to see movement in a very specific way. And when people come to you, is there like a checklist that you're kind of looking for in your brain of where do we start this process of just kind of like analyzing movement with injury or in the rehab scenario? And then what are kind of the tools that you start to move towards

in that analysis? So injury or not is almost doesn't matter to me, because if there's pain, then that's a category of movement. But then there would be a higher, not a hierarchy, but a complete analysis of literally every joint in the body. Okay. So, so that's how I try to look at it. And this is kind of just like your basic movement screen of, do we have full range of motion in each joint? Uh, it's more than, it's more than, than full range of motion, but yeah, like, uh, that, that's, that's the, basically the first thing that we do. So I walk, you, you walk in the office, how, how, how can I help you? Did you tell me your story? We whiteboard some things, et cetera.

And then the first thing I'm going to do is look at a movement evaluation, a movement assessment of some type. And if there's an injury, I'm sorry, go ahead, Travis. I can't wait to hear about the movement assessment, but yeah, go ahead. So, so, so I'll tell you what it is and then I'll go back and give you some of the core values of this because it is not important that we all do it the same way outside of the core values. So if we, because if you were to argue or say, well, I don't think we need that. I'll be just like, okay, like let's talk about football then, you know, because but, but how you shape it and how you embody it, of course, the way I do it,

I think is the best. That's why I do it. But I'm not averse to learning a new way. I just haven't found a new way. So what I do is the same way for a very, very long time. I want to look at body weight, okay? And I want to make things as intense as possible, but not any more intense. So basically, I'm going to look at them standing, because in standing, you have to control basically your entire body, as well as a vestibular component. So but as soon as I do something harder than that, meaning I have to add load, I have to add some kind of fatigue. I'm now looking at more than one thing. I'm not looking at just what can the joints do? Like what positions can the joints get into? And I want to be able to determine, can the joints get into the right positions for what you need to

do? Okay. So you need to tell me what you need to do. Clearly, what your joints need to do to be a baseball pitcher is very, very different than if you just want to train three times a week in the gym, a general population. But I still start and look at things the same way at a human level. Okay. So your joints can kind of fall into four categories. Your joints can be nice, meaning they do everything you're supposed to do and we go to work. So now if you fail in something down the road, it's not because your joints couldn't get into the right position. Then the next step is your joints are weird. Okay, so what does that mean? Very descriptive. Charlie, are you being serious? This is how you really- You just call them weird. It's kind of weird. Nice and weird. Joints are worth it.

Okay, here you go. Why don't you come to the Super Bowl with us? Listen, joints are nice. Joints are weird. Joints are stuck. Or joints are – if I'm from New Jersey, they're F'd. If I'm from everywhere else, your joints are screwed, okay? I love this dude, man.

Hey, Travis, where do you think your joints are screwed. Okay. I love this dude, man. Hey, Travis, where do you think your joints are? Screwed. You can't squat a thousand without them just being screwed for the rest of your life. They're screwed for sure. Okay. So, so, and, and those categories exist because those are four completely different levels of stimulus. Yeah, it's brilliant. So, if your joints can do everything that you think, like if I can move you like a puppet and you can get into the position, okay, that doesn't mean you can actually control that. That's weird. How come you can do it this way, but you can't do it that way? That's a motor skill acquisition category, which is a very, very different list of

physiological and neurological core values that you have to look at. So when I say we start standing, if you can't do it, we're not done. Like you can't just pick your standing or your, you can't pick any one position to look at things. That's not allowed. Like that's not a complete evaluation. And that's where a lot of people probably would poke at certain commercial methodologies because they're simply not doing them correctly. You can never look at one position. For instance, if I can't touch my toes standing, and if you care about touching your toes, I think you should, but you don't have to. But then what happens when you sit down and your legs are long and you can do a sit and reach plus three? Well, that doesn't make any sense. That's weird, because you can actually do the exact same movement pattern, but you changed something. And what you changed was the weight-bearing nature of the hips. You basically eliminated the weight-bearing nature of the hips. Okay. So that's what it means if your joints are weird, where you can do it in one position, but you can't do it in another position,

because that's not, if you only looked at one, you might think the joint was stuck, meaning that's another system of physiology and neurology which is time under tension so for instance i don't have the biggest arms in the world but they're not small but that's all i can do like that there's no more motion in my elbow there is no human on earth that can teach me how to do a clean because my elbow doesn't do it. So you now have to change the fit. But if I just do this, I'm fine. Well, there's no Olympic lift that involves a clean catch. I can do other things that kind of check the box of some of the qualities of Olympic lifting,

but I cannot do all of them. So because my elbow is stuck, now I go through a whole bunch of other things to understand why it's stuck. Is it stuck because of the joint? Is it stuck because of the long tissues? Is it stuck because my brain is very fearful of this movement? There's a number of different things. Is it stuck because the nerve is tension versus the myofascial components?

Because, guys, everything is categorized by the particular stimulus or a particular tissue. So I have to start to. So now if joints are stuck, meaning no matter how many positions you put them into, they still cannot deliver what you're asking for, like my elbow. OK, now, if your joints are screwed, I don't care the position that they can achieve. It's if there's pain. And pain is different for different people in how they express that word because pain is just a word. It means it's an analogy of some sort. But again, if a joint has pain, you cannot just do whatever you want. There's going to be this wet willy of a doorstop

if you have pain with a mobility limitation. Wet willy of a doorstop. Because that's what pain is. It's like a wet willy. You can't really touch it. Because sometimes you can poke somebody in the opposite shoulder and this shoulder feels better. That's possible.

Because pain is this neurological thing. But at the same time, if Triple H hit you with a sledgehammer, well, then yeah, the problem is right here. So guys, when you ask me of when I show up, whether it's a city or somebody walks into my office, that's the first step. Because from that point, I can now break things into two categories. The joints that you can do, the joints that are nice, we are going to build the most devastating and expansive fitness program for your goals with the joints that you can do well. So now, I don't care if you have pain or not because as long as you can lie down on your back,

I know how to train you. It may not be the most carryover. It may not be the most complete program, but I believe that we can get a reliable response from what we are trying to accomplish if there's no wet willy in the middle of things. There's no pain. For the joints that are weird, we're going to choose motor skill acquisition. If the joints that are stuck, we're going to choose mobility. And for joints that are pain, we're going to choose a grab bag, if you will, because there's no way to know exactly what so many different methods can change pain. And they all pretty much affect the brain. Everything can work. It's just probably it probably doesn't, it's probably not working for the reason that someone thinks it is meaning if i mobilize your joint i didn't really do a whole lot to move your joint but i added an

input that your brain accepted and all of a sudden it allowed it to hurt less so so that's the the movement evaluation now i think those are indeniable in terms of if you actually did a movement evaluation the way i'm describing, which you start standing, you start body weight, and if they can do it, go to work. You're done. You can finish your movement evaluation in probably six minutes for someone that has a very unlimited library of degrees of freedom of their movement. So now that doesn't mean they're injury free. It doesn't mean that they're going to do anything you want them to do. It just means that if they fail, it is going to be because you put too much weight on the bar, or you messed up the

work to rest ratios, or you made things too complex for what they could do. It wasn't because the joints couldn't do it. Because in my mind, the joints are the limiting factor to movement. You can affect the joints in many, many different ways. And again, that's how people get fussy because I don't care what you do. Maybe some of you guys have heard me say, you can spread peanut butter on something. And if it does what you want it to do, you win. You did it the correct way. But joints move.

So if joints can't move, don't ask me to do a clean. Make me do a pull or even a snatch because I don't need as much elbow. But now I can build out this secondary program that I consider. And as I know, Travis knows that you guys know, I have significant powerlifting history from, you know, from an approach from Columbus, Ohio. I don't say it's Westside because I turned down the opportunity to train at Westside. So I didn't train Westside. But when we talk about Verko Shansky's terminology of special exercises in that model, it's usually based on a weak link of where your lifts are failing. So we would pick, if your hamstrings were a weak link to your deadlift, you would choose special exercises for your hamstrings, like a glute ham raise or something. That terminology is often described

in powerlifting or that methodology of fitness, but the term special exercise is just bringing up a weak link. So I don't call things corrective exercises or mobility drills. You can call them that. You're not wrong. But I call them special exercises for movement because we are finding the gap in your movement, whether it's a motor, mobility, or pain. And then we build out this other exercise. Now, you have this movement evaluation that lets a whole bunch of people work together because usually a healthcare professional has better skills to address a joint and maybe a physical therapist or a coach that isn't really, really good at lifting heavy things. They're good at mobility drills or things, you know, and then from a motor skill acquisition,

maybe it's the guy who is good at, or the young lady who is good at lifting heavy things, but also has a passion and a mind for skills. That is how we look at things from a movement perspective. And it sounds like a lot of words, but it can be done very, very quickly. The big thing is that you have to change positions, eliminate joints, change the stabilization demands, and active versus passive.

Those are the things. If somebody were not to agree with those four, I'm out. I don't know what to, it's not that I'm out, I'll certainly listen and be respectful, but I don't know how to communicate. Because if you want to look at someone's active straight leg raise, and then you have them pull a rubber band, and their active straight leg raise move, well, what, stop stretching them. Like, you didn't even, it wasn't, because if you looked at pull a band apart, and then looked at active straight leg raise then you would never have stretched them in the first place you would have saw oh they're fine because their issue is a motor strategy right of which i don't even know what

it is all i know is that if you pull a rubber band but your posterior chain gets long while your other side gets stays short like that's okay like this is a very good thing so um you're not allowed to look at one thing, because if you do, all that does is give you the right to be wrong in criticizing the absolute best movement evaluations. And by intent, I have not named any commercial brands, but you all know what it is. It's just that people don't do it correctly. And I think a lot of the criticisms for looking at things in movement are twofold. Number one, you only look at one position. And number two, just because you fail with weight

on the bar, I can't look at those things together. Because if I put four wheels on the bar and you get pinned and hurt your back, was it because that your hip mobility was not properly evaluated for that depth? Or you're just freaking weak. You're just too weak. So that is why old men with big bushy mustaches, they're not allowed to say this, because there's no way of knowing if you fail under load, is it because you always would fail, or it was some form of work capacity, which includes strength, which includes power, which includes endurance, which includes all of the different factors that would mitigate those things. So you're not allowed to just do what you want. You have to follow the rules of logic.

And that's the movement evaluation that every single person gets the depth of how you grade it that's what's different that's what's different because the the amount of external rotation you need even to be a general population olympic lifter is much much different than the range of motion that you need to throw a baseball 105 miles an hour right you actually you look at things the same way you just grade it differently. So I would then suggest that the movement evaluation has a standard for humans. It has a standard for training. What is your training? And then there's a movement evaluation for sports. And obviously some sports and some positions in certain sports have significantly

different joint demands in order for you to be successful and safe. So that's, that is also what I do when I show up into the Super Bowl. We are taking that thought process and trying to fill in gaps of special exercises. That's what I would do as a physical therapist. Yeah. I do want to dig in a little bit. The RPR techniques that you use. I want to say the first time that I heard of rpr doug and i were up in boston and some old power lifting dude uh was just raving about how great it was and i remember i was sitting in a jail uh do you remember who it was doug we were sitting in barber chairs he's not that old his office i know that wasn't um but either way he was raving about the the effectiveness of it and all i could think was you want me to rub an area of my body and breathe at the same

time and act like my life is going to change and then it's kind of i feel like this is like really actually picked up steam um probably in the last three-ish years um can you dig into just kind of like the mechanisms at play and why RPR is an effective technique? So it is an effective technique. There's no question. I think if there is something first to be critical of is not how it works because it does work. Like, I don't know that we're never going to say something works for everybody. That's ludicrous. And I can say that because I'm not trying to sell this thing. I don't need to be sensational. So not everything is going to work for everybody, but it really shouldn't hurt. Like, I don't mean be uncomfortable. Like, there's no damage being done here.

How long does it last? And how is this method communicated to the individual? Because no differently than cracking your neck or doing some kind of manual therapy or dropping the needle, all you're doing is opening the window, meaning there was some other mechanism neurologically that was either causing you pain, which is neurological, or this neurological control around your joint. So if I go like this, and all of a sudden my shoulder moves better, my shoulder always could do that. And rubbing in this particular area was like the one little skeleton key that worked. Now, you might have found that there's like seven other skeleton keys that also work. That's very, very important. So nothing is ever one thing, because the roads to the brain is many. All right. But

there's something called, there's a fellow and a lot of this lives in osteopathics, which is not very common in America, by definition, there's DOs, but then they just kind of act like MDs. In certain parts of the country, like in the north, where it's a little bit closer to Canada, and even though I'm not Canadian, you may pick up a Canadian accent every once in a while. In the UK, in France, an osteopath is like a real thing. And it's actually kind of close to a chiropractor, where they have the methodology. They believe they can treat all 10 systems of the body. A chiropractor would, I think, I'm not a chiropractor, so somebody can

come fire me if they want. If you create these different adjustments of the spine, you can treat all 10 systems of the body. It's kind of suspect. It would also be suspect that if I move your knee, you can treat all 10 systems of the body. So that's osteopathic. If you move bones, whether you do it passively or actively. So I'm most interested in osteopathics for musculoskeletal. That's my interest. In that space, you're going to find a fellow named Chapman, C-H-A-P-M-A-N. And it is, again, I might be critical. I wish they would teach this, you know, so that you're more educated when you actually take the course. They don't teach this. I don't know why. I wish they would teach this, you know, so that you're more educated when you actually take the course. They don't teach this.

I don't know why. I wish they would because it's not make-believe. There's no reason in making something seem like this wild, sensational thing because it works. And there's a reason why it works because those Chapman reflexes or these key points in the body, there's a map that tracks to the lymphatic system, that if you can even create a little bit of cross friction, as you are being taught to do in a very safe way, and you are able to mobilize the lymph to move, that could be the signal that allows in osteopathy, one of the concepts is that there's constant fluid moving throughout the body.

So if it gets stagnant, you kind of wiggle the wet willy a little bit. You kind of shake it up a little bit, and all of a sudden it moves. And that movement allows the joint to express the connective tissue motion that it possesses. So you'll look up Chapman's reflexes, and that's the methodology that would at least begin the understanding of how that particular commercial model works. Now, I would have no argument if somebody were to say, no, that's not all it is, because I'm not as highly studied as somebody who teaches it. But also remember, I'm not trying to make it sensational. I'm not trying to make that the only thing that you use. I think it's deplorable that anyone who is a non-healthcare professional would be, I don't even know why they would even

care about this course for pain because they can say whatever they want. Like you should not be doing this if someone has pain. I wouldn't think they're not going to do it. Of course, they're going to do it. I don't even understand why somebody would want to do that rather than work with somebody else. Chapman's what? What was that called? Chapman's what? Chapman's reflexes. All right, go ahead.

Yeah, that's the areas. You're creating this reflexive response of fluid moving. But that's a really powerful tool. And quite frankly, I was shocked and pleasantly shocked that during COVID, when you get into more of online type of things, where all the telehealth rules were kind of changed a little bit, I was shocked at how, like, hey, let me look at it. I'll go like this. Hey, go right here and rub right here. And they're like, oh, let me look at it. I'll go like this. Hey, go right here and rub right here. And they're like, oh my God, it worked. Now, did it work because of Chapman's reflexes? Did it work because of the dopamine response?

Did it work from an oxytocin response? Anytime, even if you touch yourself, you cannot hide from these responses of touch. But something very, very positive happens. And there's no downside in my mind to doing it if you're doing it without pain. If you're doing it for pain, be careful what you wish for. Because what happens if it doesn't work? And what happens if it makes them worse?

You did that. You advised them to do that. So, you know, and look, at the end of the day as well, there's some areas that are very close to your private area that I think should be, even if you're telling the other person to do it in this day and age, I think this is, it sucks because it's a really good technique, but maybe you feel that you shouldn't be talking about this area to, to a young person, um, or any type. So it's a very, very good thing.

Very good. Very good. Do you think the rpr works because of chapman's um yeah that's the that's the physiological uh rationale to even get in the door sweet okay yeah that's uh there's probably other things just like any type of touch therapy that you cannot you can't separate like when i say dopamine so if i use any type of touch therapy that you cannot, you can't separate. Like when I say dopamine. So if I use any kind of manual therapy, whether you're doing it to yourself or I'm doing it to you, Travis, if you think that I'm going to help you, you cannot escape a dopamine response.

That's not possible. So, and how powerful that dopamine response is always associated with the power of the situation. So if you get on a plane and pay a lot of money to go work with somebody who you think is a genius, all of a sudden they could spit in your eye and you feel better. But the thing is that if you felt better and you have an objective way of measuring their shoulder moving. Then who cares? Yeah, yeah. Well, it's not who cares. It's like, it did work. Right. It just didn't, maybe it didn't work for why you thought. And in some

ways there's no way to know. There's no way. That's my point of who cares. Yeah. Yeah. As long as it works. I don't care, you know. But I think unfortunately, guys, whether it's RPR, there's a lot of people that won't use it because they don't feel that they, it looks too weird to them. Like it's too, it's too distant, but if you just don't understand enough of neurology and physiology to actually have some rationale to respect why this might be happening. So I think if we look up Chapman's work, that would be the answer to that in my opinion. What is the difference in applied kinesiology and RPR? I don't know. I don't know. So my limited understanding, because when the applied kinesiology folks that I have had access to, they don't like sharing. And that's

just a handful of people that I've stood next to. I'm like, hey, can you explain that so I can carry out this task, you know, like what you did? And they're like, no, it changes every day. You wouldn't understand. I wouldn't understand it. Explain it to me. That means they don't understand either. Right.

That's what that means. And it's like interesting because I'll stand there and it's like nothing happened. But their communication is like, that's dopamine. Like that's like nothing happened. But their communication is like that's dopamine. Like that's like this power of suggestion. I have never seen somebody like go from this to this, you know, by doing muscle tests somewhere else. If it works, like I have no right. But here's the shoulder.

So like if this is X, I need to do Y. I don't know enough to comment intelligently or sarcastically. So I don't know. But here's the thing. Here's what I would love to see happen that never happens. So you're the applied kinesiology wizard. I'm like, I'm going to tell you what I want. So I did the measurement. I'm going to leave the room and I'm going to tell you, Travis, I want more shoulder external rotation and I don't care how you get there. And then you leave the room and I measure it. You don't get to measure it. You just get to do it. That never happened. That never happened. So, and that, and that, and I should be held to that standard. All of us should be held to that standard. Someone else ideally does the, the, the measurement of your work. So you don't get to, you don't, you're,

you're free of bias. So it takes away the part of the dopamine response possibly. Like if I go to see Stuart McGill and it's somebody else, you know, oh, we're not supposed to name names. If I go see some dude in Canada, you know, but it's some other person, then it could be different, the response. Exactly, exactly. But my point is that I will never tell you that XY Z didn't work because really what I'm saying is I'm calling you a liar. I would, I cannot do that. I cannot bring myself to those depths. I can be

sarcastic and arrogant, but I cannot call you a liar. What I, what I can do, what I would love to do is if this happened to me once, we were using a methodology that was not as weird as some of the things that we're talking about now, but they're only weird because I don't know what they are. Like I don't know a lot of, nothing is weird. Joints can be weird when it doesn't make sense. Like if you can do it in this position, you can't do it in that position. So if I don't have a high level of training and experience and a high level of opportunity to fail, so then I can learn, it's weird. And that doesn't mean it's bad. So this was a method that was probably most people in the room were a little bit more understanding of what was happening as a result of this technique.

And this prick, who I believe was less than two years out of physical therapy school, he was chatterboxed the whole time to the point where I almost like was going to ask him to leave. You're a real bad guy. And, or at least from my point of view. And he was like, there's no way that's going to work. I said, measure, measure it, go ahead. So he measured it beforehand and it was his little tinker toy goniometer. And then I did the technique. I'm like, measure it. And it was like, yeah, it's a valid technique. I said, first of all, you are not the standard

and your little goniometer is not the standard for valid. But my point is, and I taught this to the room, I said, listen, if you don't believe something, you measure it. Let me do it or you do it and I'll measure it. And that's a, I think when we talk about RPR and we talk about applied kinesiology, even though it may not make perfect sense to what we're seeing, if your performance improves, then it works. Absolutely. I'm not, from my experience, I have seen RPR be very, very successful. In my experience, I have not seen applied kinesiology nearly as successful. And the other thing, you are not allowed to tell me the only times that it works. You have to tell me all of your opportunities. So if you work with 100 people, you're not allowed to tell me the 33 times that you got this amazing result. You have to tell me the 33 times that it worked amazingly. And then you also have to tell me the 67 times where it didn't work. Please. No one does this. No one does this.

I know everybody finds that one thing that, you know, yes. Yeah. So I'm my, my messages are much stronger in terms of evaluation to get to a word or a series of words. And then if you, if you want, like those words are like, you do whatever you want, just beat this. That's, that's the, that's, that's where I the that's that's where i i think there's a different perspective sweet can i can i ask a question about you got a dude transfer this is to both of you andy and to charlie but so like you know what we do in the

gym and how it transfers to performance like what are the qualities in the gym that actually transfer to them as an athlete? When I do a back squat, of those adaptations, which adaptations transfer to something on the field? Let me go a little bit deeper.

Meaning there's force. You get this force. You also get the skill acquisition. You're going to get – I haven't even written it down. There's going to be some neural adaptations. It's going to be strictly to the muscle. But the coordination example, you'll get where motor unit synchronization improves but does that mean that there's an improvement on the field of that you know this is all stemming from the twitter comment that you got this is this is yeah this is you want to get more context into that comment yeah so the um a guy made the blanket statement stop this is how you get on barbell shrug the easiest just piss off in a Twitter comment. Stupid ass. And so he's like, stop back squatting.

It's bad for you. It messes up your CNS, and it messes up your movement patterns on the field, meaning it'll make you sprint incorrectly and change directions incorrectly. And I'm like, what, man? It doesn't transfer like that. Which is crazy because

we all know we work with Johan Blake, the second fastest human ever on the earth. He does back squats. Obviously, I don't see Andy. Is he on here? He can hit it. Go ahead, Charlie.

You crush it. I'm here though well i i think i think first first and foremost um at least travis in the way that you are recounting this conversation uh this this individual's suggestion should be immediately dismissed um i mean there's there's uh um i i did a talk i did a keynote uh I did a keynote at the World Golf Fitness Summit in 2016. And it's a pretty powerful story in my mind. So I have all the details. So I did my thing. And also the question that that seminar of all the speakers was really grounded around

was what can we learn from other sports? Like what can golf learn from other sports? Like what can golf learn from other sports? Not necessarily your question, but I'm going to get to the point of why we should dismiss what this individual saying. And it's not, I think your question is fair. This, this, this, this individual is very unfortunate. Probably very limited, but like he's, he's, he's, he's very upset with his life. So love you. Yeah. Why would he? I mean, so there was the end of the thing, and it's like it was time for Q&A.

And this one individual, he did not have a question. He basically said, well, in my experience, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which was the opposite. He was saying that he did not agree with what I was saying. I said, okay. But it wasn't a question, which made me really pissed off. Because no matter how good you can make it look in front of the room, it's always really hard. There's no way anybody, you know, that's like messing with a comedian. Like, be careful.

Like, they're going to crush you. So I leaned up against the little, whatever you call it, the desk that I never used. Podium. And I'm like podium podium yeah podium so so then i'm like okay is that is he's like is there a question and and uh and then the proctor said uh greg rose says well what do you think i said well i think everything you just said is completely inconsistent with everything we know about the science of motor skill acquisition he was just basically like i didn't tell you how to do it. I just gave what I thought was

the science. So it was twofold. Number one, if you vehemently agree with somebody, don't do it in front of the whole room. That's just wrong. Be careful what you wish for because I did have some unique words for him later in the evening. But there's nothing in how you

describe that Twitter post that's consistent with anything, you know, because, you know, like back squat itself has, you know, am I going heavy? Am I going fast? Am I doing all right? Like, what does this even mean? What was the context of how that individual was qualified to squat in the first place? And going back to the first answer that I was providing is, okay, the squat has a series of joint positions that are required to be nice for you to even have a chance to succeed. So is it possible that somebody walked at some ideal standard that somebody described, then did a back squat of some way, shape, or form, and then all of a sudden they walked in a less

desirable fashion? Is that possible? Of course that's possible. Like, I can bury you and make you walk in a less desirable fashion, even if I don't even know what that would be, but okay. But to say in all cases, which is how you're describing it, that's ludicrous. Like, that's just, you can substitute walking for anything, and then you can substitute squatting for anything and it's just nonsense because again it's not impossible like dude i can try to put like nine wheels on your back and see what happens you might not walk the same like that that's not a weird thing yeah but to suggest to suggest that there's universal damage being done as a result of a back squat, as it relates to gait, well, I don't, I don't think that's even worthy of, of, of, of discussion. Charlie, if you put nine wheels on a barbell for me, I'm going to walk out just perfect because it's not getting off the rack.

I'm going to push as hard as I can. And I'm going to go, I feel good. Right. You got to practice. You got to, you got to practice when you don't have a monolith, so you have to practice somehow. Man, I appreciate it today. We're going to have you back on. We got a lot to walk through here,

and I appreciate you being on the team here, man. Where can people find you, learn more about your work? So, charlieweingroff.com um we're in the process of of redoing that site but it's still live right now and uh charlie everybody everyone's in process of redoing their site at all times right it's just how big of an overhaul are you about to make yeah it's not good it's not good yeah it's not good so some surprising

turn of events there with the website but uh what about the t equals r thing is that you know i was just looking at your website you know yeah is it a good course to take or what oh it's the best man it's a hundred percent um you know that the um so t equals r plus is like a streaming platform where none of us really buy DVDs anymore. But some of the stuff that was earlier when I started to put that stuff out was DVDs, but now you have lifetime utility when you buy them. And they're really just brain dumps of all, you know, some of the questions that you have asked. The original three was, it was called, like the first one was called rehab equals training, training equals rehab.

And then that just became like training equals rehab. So the first three were like, I think like every three years, and like, it's just a brain dump of things that I valued and things that I felt were important to talk about. And then like the 15, 16, 17 hour DVD kind of market went away. So then things were a little bit more specific. So there's Kettlebell on there. Elite Performer Program is what do you do to train, um, that supports the injury process and work capacity. Um, ACL in action is, is a way for coaches to work hand in hand with a therapist.

So nothing on there teaches you how to be a physical therapist. You can tell in some of my arrogant statements, like I really get frustrated with people that take courses to become a bad physical therapist in two days because there's a lot of them out there and you'll succeed at being a bad physical therapist. So we don't do anything like that. We don't show you any manual therapy and there's very little to zero direct treatment of pain. That way these messages can be available for everybody.

So the medical professional works, understands things about the training process. The people in the training process understand things about joints that are weird and joints that are stuck. And when joints are in pain, how that impacts. Is that all at CharlieWeinengraf.com? Yeah. So, so, um, you know, that, is that all, uh, is that all at Charlie Weingroff.com? Yeah. So you're going to go up in the, in the, in the menu up at the top and it's all under T equals R plus. And, um, that's the, that's the streaming, that's the streaming platform. Do you still offer a consults,

personal consults if they want to work with you directly or is that not a thing? So no, that that's, that that's uh that's still on there um the the the personal consults are are advice only um so it's not it's not telehealth um that's that's very important and i i think uh andy if if uh if that's a segue into um you know what what we've talked about this week that might this might be a good time to, uh, to bring that out. So you can, you can maybe talk about that. Yeah. We'll wrap it up. Yeah. We'll go. We're, uh, we're up against it here.

We'll we're going to spend a whole show. We keep that under wraps. Yeah. All right. So, so cool. What's that? Cool. Cool things in the future. How about that? Absolutely. Teasers. They're always good. Dr. Galpin.

Andy Galpin. Everywhere on Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube. All the places. As if someone doesn't know him at this point. Travis, Galpin's Instagram page has got us, in the last three weeks, more followers than I just have in general over the last decade. That's not cool. Dude is awesome.

Travis Bass, where can the people find you? MastroLead.com. If you want to go see this Twitter meet blasting this guy at MastroLead. I did it in a very nice way. Yeah. Nothing makes me happier than watching. How old are you now? About to be 50.

50-year year old arguing on twitter about back squats debating debating debating intelligently arguing with science like arguing or debating boil wasn't enough now you're now you're lowering the level of person that you will argue with. Doug Larson. On my Instagram, Douglas E. Larson. Charlie, appreciate you coming on the show, man. Thank you. Good luck this weekend. I'm Andrew Varner. At Andrew Varner, we are Barbell Shrugged at Barbell

underscore Shrugged. Make sure you get over to RapidHealthReport.com. Friends, that's where all the physiology, you can see Andy Galpin and Dan Garner break down labs, lifestyle, and performance and get a sneak peek of what goes on inside Rapid Health Optimization. Friends, we'll see you guys next week.