Barbell Shrugged - What Separates PhD Strength Coaches from the Masses w/ Anders Varner, Doug Larson, and Coach Travis Mash Barbell Shrugged #629

Episode Date: February 16, 2022

In this Episode of Barbell Shrugged:   Why getting your PhD is so hard in strength and conditioning How to create research using athletes versus college students Why getting your PhD has become so popular in our field Why getting your PhD is important for coaches Should you get your PhD?   Connect with our guests:   Anders Varner on Instagram   Doug Larson on Instagram   Coach Travis Mash on Instagram   ————————————————   Diesel Dad Mentorship Application: https://bit.ly/DDMentorshipApp   Diesel Dad Training Programs: http://barbellshrugged.com/dieseldad   Training Programs to Build Muscle: https://bit.ly/34zcGVw   Nutrition Programs to Lose Fat and Build Muscle: https://bit.ly/3eiW8FF   Nutrition and Training Bundles to Save 67%: https://bit.ly/2yaxQxa   Please Support Our Sponsors   Organifi - Save 20% using code: “Shrugged” at organifi.com/shrugged   BiOptimizers Probitotics - Save 10% at bioptimizers.com/shrugged   Garage Gym Equipment and Accessories: https://prxperformance.com/discount/BBS5OFF Save 5% using the coupon code “BBS5OFF”

Shrug family, this week on Barbell Shrug, we're sitting down with none other than our dear friend, Coach Travis Mash. Like we do every week, but this week we wanted to interview him specifically on his PhD that he is getting in athlete monitoring, where he's at. He's coming up on the end of all of his research, writing his papers, and he's going to have to go defend his dissertation, and that's terrifying. But I think it's a really cool conversation because so many people in the fitness field think that the next level really is going to get your master's in exercise science or going to get a PhD. And we wanted to talk about what the difference is in Travis Smash's life now that he is getting his PhD, going through the master's program,

and where he was before just kind of as like world champion weightlifter that also has the strongest kids in the world, and he's a national champion after one year of coaching at Lenore Rhine. Obviously, he's insanely, insanely qualified to coach anybody that exists in this world in powerlifting and Olympic weightlifting, but what has really changed in his mind now that he has gotten his master's is pursuing his PhD and is wrapping up all the research on that. So it's a really cool conversation because I think so many people look at PhDs as far above and beyond what is

actually necessary. And it's actually true because Matt is doing a ton of work. I mean, this thing almost killed him, like literally put him in the hospital with the amount of work, stress, workload, all of that. And it's a really good conversation. It's an honest conversation about how hard it is to actually get your PhD in strength and conditioning. And if that's somebody that you would like to work with, what somebody with a PhD actually has to go through in order to get the letters behind their name. And a lot of this really comes back to kind of Lane Norton, Andy Galpin, guys that went and got their PhDs two decades ago and paved the way because getting your PhD in strength and conditioning was not really a thing for a very long time.

It was such a small group of people doing research, and now the field is exploding, and those guys really paved the way. So if you're interested in knowing what separates a PhD strength coach from the masses, this is your show. But before we get into it, I want to thank our sponsors. Our friends over at Organifi, five years running. Five years running, we have been working with Organifi to provide you with the best solution to getting optimized micronutrient profiles in your body. Not everybody has the ability to sit down and eat all the vegetables and all of the micronutrients that you need to actually have a balanced micronutrient profile

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Welcome to Barbell Shrugged. My name is Anders Varner. That's Doug Larson, Coach Travis Mash. Friends, we have a lot to talk about today. The main point of today's show, I want everyone to understand what actually goes into getting a PhD in the strength and conditioning field. I feel like with Lane, Norton, Andy Galpin, all these really awesome and insanely smart people that have come across and made science so accessible in our field right now. Travis Mash is going through the process as we speak. And I just

really want everybody to know what actually goes into it. Because I used to make a joke about telling people I had my PhD, even though I never did, just because I got my MBA and I thought it changed me absolutely zero as like a business owner or anything like that. I was like, I should just tell people I have a PhD. It'll totally, they'll never know the difference. I haven't changed that much after my MBA. Well, guess what? Now I know these people. Now I'm friends with them and they're insanely smart. And I just want to learn about the whole process of everything that's going on with you, Travis. But before we get into the show, Mash, again, another medal in your life, dude.

You and Ryan Grimsland smashing it. Gold medal. Tell us about that. What? What do you hit? What do you hit? Every week I feel like we get on the shows like, Ryan Grimsland has another gold medal around his neck.

It wasn't even his top performance. He's way ahead. And so he's going through a lot right now. As silly as it sounds, he's going through a lot right now as silly as it sounds he's going through a little breakup girl thing it's his first love heartbreak

we didn't go as hard as we could have or should have but he easily won just let Ryan Grimsley know no sweat you're the strongest kid in school you'll find somebody next week it'll all work out Just let Ryan Grimsley know, no sweat. You're the strongest kid in school. You'll find somebody. Next week, it'll all work out.

I'm trapped. We couldn't walk two feet without someone wanting to get a picture with him. And I'm like, you're sweating, man, girl. All you need to do is just throw on that Hawaiian shirt and go snatch 110 kilos for a double. She'll show up. Bro, there's this girl from Venezuela that he kind of digs. I'm like, bro, now is your time. Now is your time.

So, like, yeah, I don't know why, but we won. America won really well. That was Junior Pan Ams? What was that? Junior Pan Am Games, the first one ever. So, it's the first Junior Pan Am Games I've ever had. By games, that means all the sports there, sprinting, just team USA.

So there was Junior Pan Ams just for weightlifting, but this is a bigger thing with many sports. When I say Junior Pan Am Championships, that just means weightlifting. I got you. It's all the – and it bought him an automatic bid to the senior pendant games, which is super cool. It's like, you know, besides the Olympics, this is as big as it gets for America. And so he's got an automatic bid in two years to that one.

So that was good. We only took – we were only allowed five men, five women. And out of our ten athletes seven won medals so it was super successful now those seven three won gold and so that was you know ryan being one ryan was only man to win gold that tells you anything was coming in the future and then um but look guys there is a girl i want the world to know right now, Olivia Reeves. If you don't know her, make note of that name because there is a storm coming to USA Way.

Oh, wait, Clay. Oh, she's a – Wait for it. She's a nice – She's super young and people just don't know about her. She's super young and, like, the only people that would know about her would be like someone like me somebody that's recruiting her to go to lenore ryan next year

there's no way her coach would you like to come check out western north carolina it's beautiful this time of year the leaves are changing it's really nice boys a 17 year old girl squatted 185 kilograms 407 no belt no knee wraps no anything damn yeah yeah she is a gangster and so uh where is she from she is from um oh tennessee near duck she's on you know chattanooga get her on the show let's do it she is I just can't wait and there's also Katie I can't remember her last name she won gold too she's amazing

she's a smaller she's got Kevin Simons remember having him on the show Doug like yeah yeah we had Kevin on the show but he's got two young girls who are really good and uh this girl katie though is going to there's those two girls katie and and olivia are going to

shake up usa weightlifting next year so the olympic you know everybody thinks they're in the run for the olympics that there's two little young girls they're about to shake your mind up. That's wild. I can't wait. So she squatted well over double body weight for five? Is that what you said? Yeah. Well, what's her best lift for snatch clean jerk? You know, there she easily did a 105 snatch. It was super easy. And she did a 130 clean jerk super easy.

So she totaled 235. And she was really chilling because she's about to go to the world now, senior worlds, and where she hopes to – I mean, there's rumors. I've heard like 115 and 140, which would blow everyone away. Yeah, who – is there anybody out there, any ladies clean jerking double body weight? Well, there's – you know, she's in that – she's a 71, so she's in that really popular weight class. She's in Meredith Allwins, but if she goes up one,

she's in Kate Nye and Maddie Rodgers. So it's those four girls I just said right there that are battling, but I'm not quite sure if they're battling because come next year, that girl, I don't know. We'll see. I feel like people will have to really start focusing on their training and less on the other things in life. Like this girl is special.

She's different. She's built different. She moves different. Like they better do all the little things. This little girl, she's about to bring a storm. That's wild. Yeah. Who does she live for i can't remember coach's name i feel bad about that but he wasn't there

i've only met him once so like um but whoever it is he's doing a great job i got him if i were a coach i would never recruit her because you have nothing to gain because he's done such a good job with her like what are you gonna do just keep up the good job and so yeah she's amazing damn savage all right um dude your weightlifting course finally hit uh you partnered up with stronger experts yes did china buy this thing this thing? They did. Like the whole country? Yeah, the whole country. Look at you. Look at you. Yeah. Thank God. Do you not believe China? That still seems so weird to me. Like China's like a

powerhouse in weightlifting. Like why do they need help from anyone in America? What's going on here? Well, it's mainly for the strength and conditioning coaches. And so there's a disconnect between strength coaches and the weightlifting team, which is exactly the same thing when someone asks me to do it. You know, you want me to write a course for China.

Wait, aren't they the best team in the world? Right. So, but I did, you know, and it's just a slower process. A lot of red tape and each province is like a different deal. So it's just a slower process. A lot of red tape. And each province is like a different deal. So it's just taking longer. So then we dropped it to the rest of the world, you know, a few days ago. And it is blowing. I'm so happy.

It's like the only thing I've dropped this entire year. And it blew up. So super excited. What about killed you building it? That's what happened. It almost killed me. Like it literally put me in the hospital. So, yeah, it's good.

30 hours of content. It's everything that USA Way of the News doesn't have. Beautiful. Like in their level one course? I was just watching this video of Olivia doing that set of five with 408 like a month ago. She went for a six and almost

got it. She's not normal, man. Dude, tell the people about this course, where they can get it, all that. I'm super proud that you guys actually – I was wondering the other day. I almost didn't bring it up because I didn't know if you guys just hit so many roadblocks getting into China. If you guys are actually going to be able to release it. And then I saw stronger experts marketing it and tagging me and stuff. So I'm glad you guys finally get it out. What's what is like the overall? How are you like walking people through snatch, clean jerk,

building power, strength, all that fun stuff. Shrug family, some very cool news coming out of Walmart. You didn't expect to hear that I bet. AGS male protein was selected as one of the very few products in the entire performance nutrition category. So the entire shelf with all of the supplements, Ageless Male Protein, the zone, the pump, and the shred were chosen to have rollback pricing to begin the new year. What that means is Walmart pretty much never does sales, but they do these things called rollbacks and they select a very, very few products in each category,

pretty much the ones that they think are going to absolutely crush in the new year and the hot time. And they chose us, which is super, super cool. So 2,200 stores, Walmart nationwide, the Walmart near me, I don't have it. And that's annoying. That means it's a whack Walmart, but the Walmart near you probably has it because we're in over half of them. So you can get over, get to the performance nutrition section in the pharmacy, age of smell, protein zone,

pump and shred. Make sure you get over there. Look for my face on the box. Pick up some supplements and get your new year kick-started, right? Friends, I'm so stoked. We have rollback pricing. Whoever knew that that was going to be a thing at Barbell Shrugged? Age of Smell Pro-T. Yes, it's 30 hours of total content. We really focused on a lot of the science. I feel like the thing that I thought was missing the most was the science of it all. You know, like you'll hear coaches arguing over things that if they had a little bit of scientific background, they wouldn't even argue because they would know the answer. You know, like the whole thing about like Catapult, you know, like the whole thing about like a catapult, you know, and like Don Macaulay and Sean Waxman used to argue about catapult versus triple extension. And it was when you talk to them, it was the silliest of arguments.

And so I want to back up and just like, what are the two sides there? Like what are like the strong points on each side where you're like, you're steelmanning both sides? You know, I interviewed them a long time ago and wrote an article, and that's a great question. And when it was all said and done, it came down to only about two things. Like a shrug up

or shrug down. Don McCauley would say that the traps should be used to shrug down. Sean Waxman would be, you know, big finish and shrug up. The other, the other thing would be plantar flexion. Don would say it doesn't matter. And Sean would say it matters.

Garhammer did some research that says that adds like 10%, you know, to power. That's what I thought I heard. 10%. Yeah. Yeah. But there's more to power. That's what I thought I heard. 10%. Yeah. Yeah. But there's more to that.

Well, I'm not going to tell you there's more to that research than, than I'm telling you, but soon that will be changed too. And so anyway, that was the only two, but if people would have just had some science and just said, look, does that really matter at that? And once you're traveling at that velocity, is anybody really thinking shrug up, shrug down, I said, look, does that really matter? And once you're traveling at that velocity, is anybody really thinking shrug up, shrug down?

Are they really thinking, okay, I need to push the ground with my balls and my feet so I make sure I plant the reflects? They just pull it, man. Like keeping the bar close, why? Standing over the bar, why do I do that? Well, you take the course, you'll know. And you'll know then it'll be hard to lie to you. You know, once you understand biomechanics, physics, anatomy, physiology,

it'll just be super hard. And I made it easy. That's all the stuff that you actually can't teach in a weekend-long seminar, because it just takes a lot of time to get really complex points across. Where would you go and take the... I thought that USA weightlifting level one like

sports performance coach was one of the best seminars i it is good i i thought it was great um but you can't really dig into any of the why they're teaching any of this because there's only 16 hours on a weekend to get everything done and they just kind of like give you this brief uh tutorial on how to teach the snatch and clean and jerk. But all the complexity is just, it's very complicated to actually be able to simplify. Right. How do you implement it?

Right. The question would be, how do you implement it? You know, like if you're a student's industry coach and you're taking the USA weightlifting level one, it's good and fine and dandy, but now how do I implement it? And why should I? Should I not? Maybe you shouldn't. So I answer all those questions. You know, we're talking about programming to programming,

to points that you can implement, whether you're a waylifting coach, CrossFit coach, like a science of science, it doesn't change based on the sport. It is what it is. And so we go over all that. I feel like if someone does this course and takes that test and passes number one if you pass that test you're a gangster because it's 80 questions long and it's it's not like usa way where you can shut your eyes and pass it's if you pass that you deserve the certification yeah yeah so i am confident i've done the thing i wanted to do and that was i want people to know if they pass my course

and they're implementing it in their school or if they're teaching away the thing, they'll be prepared. Yeah. Who is we again? We as in who did it? Well, it's Phil. You know, Phil from Stronger Experts. Tremblay.

So he's the one. I mean, I did the course. Oh, Spencer Arnold also helped me with a little bit, and we tried to do it together, but him being in Georgia, it was hard. He came up here, so he's in it a little bit, but then 90% I did it by myself. So you do get some cool things from Spencer, but it's mainly from me.

And it's good. Anything you want to know, like if you, if you have movement, you know, Oh, number one assessment, assessing your athletes, what to do with movement flaws, what exercises to help correct, you know, and deficiencies. So it's, it's good it'll pretty much answer any question that you could possibly have other than you know experience and time you know i can't do anything about that you'll need to you know get under the bar and coach

but you will have all the knowledge you need for that sport and for implementing weightlifting into your strength conditioning program for sure. Beautiful dude. Yeah. At one point you were, you were going to go over to China to do some coaching based on this course. Yeah. And then COVID hit.

Yeah. So yeah, we're talking about it and like now we've got this new variant. And so I hope so, you know, we we've been talking about it. And, like, now we've got this new variant. And so I hope so. You know, we've been talking about that for a while. I don't know when that's going to happen. We're going to do – oh, I'm glad you said that too, Doug. We're going to do a few live events, even in America.

And so, like, it would be really cool to follow, you know, this course with the live event. Because then it would make – you know, like, if you're a USA Railroad team, they do a lot of practical. And that's didn't even make, you know, like if you're at USA Weightlifting doing, you know, they do a lot of practical and I don't, that's why they're good. You know, because like you take the NSCACS, yes, you may be good. You may be not, maybe you can't teach anything. You just know, you know, some science, you know, a little background, but following this course up with a lot,

a lot of event would be really cool because then there'll be most of the practical. It'll be like, let's get a bar in our hands, let's learn, but you'll have the background you need to do those things. Anyway, oh, and... Back to the China thing, like what, tell me more about that. Like they bought it in their to educate their

strength coaches, like the country bought it? That still is kind of confusing to me. There is, I think, what it is what it is you know really feel and answer christian better there is like an organization like the ncaa right like they're the ncaa of china reached out to us because they wanted to add this you know cert for their for the at least offer the cert for their coaches that's how it happened and so now they have to do it in the different provinces. It's a lot of

red tape. You'll be in politics trying to sling weightlifting here pretty soon. International relations. I've learned a lot about that. Lobbyist for the snatch and clean and jerk. Yeah. You just said cert a second ago.

Is this something that you can get certified in in America? CEUs? CEUs and all that too? Yeah. You'll get CEUs. NSCA is going to give 1.8 CEUs for the cert. Yeah, well, it's a weightlifting course certification. So at the end of it, yes, there's a test you take

to get certified in weightlifting through us. About the same as if you got certified by USA Weightlifting. I think better. Obviously, I'm biased, but I'm pretty sure if anyone did the course, they would agree. It's definitely way better. Where do people find it at?

Oh, go to strongerexperts.com backslash weightlifting certification sweet dope and then how much does this cross over with what you're doing with your phd i mean it's a lot because you know we go over athlete monitoring um we go over testing so we go over you know data and what to do with it so a lot you, you know, but obviously it's not everything that, you know, I'm doing my PhD, but the PhD has definitely helped me do the course because I'm better at all the science

than I was. So yeah, definitely biomechanics has definitely changed. I fell in love with biomechanics this time through for sure. Biomechanics and data acquisition, data processing, those would be my three things I love to do with athletes. I think those are three things that you can for sure put your finger on and you can definitely help your athletes with. them yeah i mean i'd imagine throughout the course of your entire weightlifting career like the the data component is kind of a newer component you didn't have as much data readily available when you first started coaching or first started lifting compared compared to now like what are you using these days like we talk about velocity all the time of course but what else what are all the things you use as far as uh measurable data points oh this is a good question because i just roomed with Kevin Simons. It was my roommate when we were at Columbia for the games.

We're both like data nerds. And so what I use, obviously you're going to use like total volume, total reps, then you're going to get average intensity, then we're going to use a K value. K value is just a ratio to basically takes your average intensity and then tells you what you need to do moving forward to get to the next goal. So if you total 300 and you average X, K value will tell you now what to do. Because if you average 100 and say you average 105 to get to your PR,

well, now you need to do, say, like 107 to get to five kilos up in your average intensity. I look at, monotone strain is my favorite because monotone strain is like, it's one that a lot of people don't realize, but like it shoots a hole in the whole Bulgarian system because if you do the same, the monotone strain would say, if you do the same thing, whether it's slow, high or medium, there's a really good chance that number one, you'll stop progressing as an athlete. Number two, you'll probably get hurt.

So there's a lot of, it's not even a question. Definitely will get hurt eventually over time. And so we look at monotony strain. Strain is like monotony is just simply look at the fluctuations in daily volume and strain is volume uh times times out i'm sorry volume oh times the monotony you look at the monotony times the volume gives you the total strain on the body that makes sense wait how much are you showing to the athletes are you kind of just doing this behind the scenes like running all these calculations then making decisions are

you like discussing it with them like how much is it no they don't really need to know much of this or if they ask you know if they want to know why we're doing then i'll tell them. But, like, no. I mean, most of them, you know, they would glaze over. Sure. They probably have some athletes that don't care at all and there's other athletes that want to know everything. Yeah, there's a few that want to know, you know, everything. Like JC, my football player. I mean, my – sorry, my powerlifter.

He would want to know. He's, like, one of the few because he's interested in it too. And so that would be the only reason. Yeah. I mean, I'd imagine there's many athletes that eventually think they're going to be coaches in some capacity that probably want to know some of the coaching side of it and the programming side of it, et cetera. There's a bunch. There's a bunch that do. And so and then but some of them, you know, they're still young.

But like Tyman is one of my newer athletes who I really love. Yeah, he does. He's actually been over at my house learning, trying to figure out all the different components of programming, which then I go over all that with him. So we look at effect size, monotone strain, weekly average intensity, weekly total volume. Oh, weekly INOL is like intensity number of is like a titsy number of lists.

It's just like, it's a fancy name for relative strength. So we look at that. I think one that I don't track that I'm going to track is how often each individual can lift in the 90% without having any negative effects.

So that we're going to do that. And per lift, so how many times you can snatch and clean and jerk in the 90% tile without getting injured because that's important. Bill Ben said a long time ago, that's how you get strong. You can't do it all the time. Yeah. Let's zoom back out just for a moment. Why at this point in your career do you feel you need a phd or is

it just uh you're just curious and and always wanted to learn or is it like you feel like you need it for something specific what what drove you to actually make that decision well that's a great question okay so in the world right now with with the internet you know you at any moment someone can go on there and become expert you know they can um they can say that, hey, I got my PhD in X, so you should listen to me. And it appears that most people would listen. And sometimes, you know, we know good and well these are not the people that should be teaching.

So why I did it really is to, number one, I want to learn. I want to keep advancing as a coach. I feel like, you know, there were some things, some holes I had, and this will definitely plug them, but just how many people do you know that have been a world champion three times in one sport? They've been at the Olympic Training Center, at the National Caliber, at the other sport, weightlifting,

and they've coached 30 Team USA athletes and their PhD. It's kind of like – The list is dwindling. The list is dwindling. With these things you say. Right. A lot. It is the debate.

I just want – The one I wanted to learn, number two, I wanted to separate myself from everyone in the industry, and I feel like I've done that. So I can't deny, though, I did not believe I would learn a time that I'd be able to apply. But in the last two years, I feel like I have progressed more than 10 times as a coach.

I did not realize. They've done a good job, Lenore Ryan. I did not realize it. They've done a good job. Lenore Ryan. I'm not just, I'm not plugging school. I get no money. If you go join, if you go start a program here,

but they do a good job teaching, you know, stuff that we can apply. Like, yeah. Compared to your, um, compared to the kids that are in your class,

I call them kids because they're probably like 25. You're likely the oldest. You're likely the oldest person in there. Going in with like decades of experience and decades of years, like literally talking to the smartest people in the industry. How much of like a benefit do you think that that framework going back and doing it versus like going from undergrad to your master's straight into a PhD program

without really like maybe a ton of experience actually on the floor coaching and now you're just like purely academic learning all this stuff. It's 10 times. I have 10 times the advantage over them because I know like when we're studying biomechanics, like I'm applying it in my brain, everything you go over, like impulse, for example, is a good one. It's something I talk about a lot. Impulse is force times time.

And basically what it's saying is the longer you can apply force to something, the faster it move and so if i can in the first pull the longer i can drive my feet into the ground and stay over the bar the faster i'll get the bar moving during the first pull so it just it just answers so many questions or like you look at like um you know torque and which looks at like uh how the parallel the distance parallel to look at your hip and the distance from the line of force which is gravity where the barbell is you know parallel to the hip is that's how hard things are it's a moment arm and so you you learn all these things and how they are applied when you lift. And so once again,

it's likely if you're like 25 and you're going through your PhD program, you've been at school for going on like four, six, eight years now coming up on eight years to finish your PhD program. Like you've likely have been in school so long doing such hard studying that you don't have time to go get super jacked right but i can't even go and experience like what it's like to clean 300 pounds right here's a good example like um we were we talked we were all talking at the table and uh this is a i think we i don't know if we've done a show on this one, but we should. But the difference in doing a deadlift and a clean, the setup, the intent,

is there a difference? We did a video on it. Yeah, yeah. I am not convinced that there's a difference at all in the setup. As a matter of fact, I have a lot of data that would say no. Now, there are a lot of people out there that do and that's okay too. There's a lot of people that would say that the butt's higher when you do a

deadlift as opposed to when you snatch. I disagree. Sometimes I might, but if you understood biomechanics, you would understand what I'm talking about. I know that the reason why I set up where I do in the clean,

you know, I'm trying to make it optimal at the hip, the knee, you know, and all the intervertebral joints of the back. I'm trying to optimize all those joints. And so why would I want to do anything different and set up with the deadlift? You know, I'm not, I just, you can't convince me I should. Now during the the intent it's totally different i am trying to make sure i get behind the bar as soon as i can in the deadlift because i'm trying not you know the back is you know the where i'm going to miss

it isn't my back so if i get behind it i'm going to shorten those moment arms you know on the on the clean because the weight is submaximal, I can stay over and push it to the ground and create more velocity. So that would be the only difference. But if you don't know torque, you don't know impulse, you won't be – I mean, everything you're giving me is your opinion, and it has nothing to back it it up but once you know that then you can talk and you can have a really good discussion

so where are you at at this point uh in the process of finishing your phd i hate to say this but halfway through yeah yeah yeah but yeah i'm luckily um we're making some good some changes as far as like you know the second half of how i'm going to do things and so that will make things a little bit easier but yeah about halfway so like it's going what i'm doing is that lenore ryan it's like there's a a master's and then there's a human um exercise and there's a human performance phd and so i will start that in the fall the the human performance phd but i just won't be able to i won't be able to coach as much and so that's gives you a foresight on some things i'm going to do wait and you have

to write a dissertation and all that before yeah graduate? Have you settled on exactly what that's going to be? On the thesis I have, yeah, for sure. I did all the data collection this whole semester. So we did like – it's looking at readiness. So we had our athletes answer a simple little pre-workout survey, talking about like how many hours you sleep, what was the quality. Then we looked at like, oh, we did their depth jump,

which is from a 45-centimeter box. We looked at the velocity of the snatch, clean jerk, and squats, and pulls at 85%. I have all that data. It was a lot to collect. If I had to to do over I probably wouldn't choose so many variables but I didn't know rookie yeah I'm great but so for my dissertation I'm well aware now I'll pick something simply one more time with all that data are you looking for something specific what what what was the hypothesis there? tell me a one, I'm assuming that the velocity is going to show that, meaning it's going to be slow and that the depth jump is going to show that,

meaning not only the height but also the ground contact time will be low. That's simplifying my hypothesis. But, yeah, I'm hoping, which I'm pretty sure that I'll prove, that looking at the data so far, it would prove that you don't necessarily have to have a really expensive thing like the dimware. The only thing is that you'll be able to pinpoint it more. So if someone comes in and they tell me that they slept two hours

and they feel like shit and that all these things, it's pretty much going to say, hey, they're not going to have a great workout on average. And the gym aware will show that and so will the vertical leap. The only thing about the vertical leap thing, you know, the depth jump is really cool because, like, it shows the neuromuscular. That thing is like, instead of doing a vertical leap like some people do, i'm definitely going to argue you should do the depth jump because it's more of the neuromuscular system which in weightlifting is everything it's not you know versus the just a vertical leap is

mainly just the it's just a strength thing so it's a totally over ball game you got to rely on the muscle spindles the bul bulging tendon organ, you know, tighten, all that when you do a depth jump. Even more – you know, of course, those come into play too when you do a verticle leap, but not as much. Do you do that basically every day with your athletes? Have them come in and do a jump and just see where they're at? Yeah, every day.

We do – we take them through like, you know, a 10-minute warm-up. Then they get 10 minutes on their own, and then they do Yeah, every day. We take them through a 10-minute warm-up. Then they get 10 minutes on their own, and then they do the job every day. What is everybody else doing that doesn't have an entire strength team to practice on every day? Where are they finding their athletes? What teams are they using? That's a good question, Anders. That's another thing, too. They're going to get some generic dudes good question and there's that's another thing too they they're going to get some just generic dudes from the you know from the student body so you get research based on a bunch

of you know 10 schlubs versus like 10 studs you know so um all my data will be based on real athletes high level you know arguably the best in the country, best in the world athletes. So it's the first time that you have all this data from the best of the best. Yeah. How much are you communicating with the other students in class doing this program with you? And the reason I wonder that is because with your experience level do you look at their are you guys in communication and when they tell you what they're doing you're like oh dude don't do that study that one doesn't matter we do it's good we have a discussion board and like um i'm able to like when we like for example we did a project a midterm for uh it was a high-level statistics class, and we had to turn this

project in, and so I was able to go, and we're supposed to communicate and, like, give feedback to our classmates, and I was able to help, you know, say, like, why this, here's a way to better apply, here's another one we did in, here's about the best class of all time, by the way, is athlete monitoring here at Illinois Ryan, and when we did our final project about the best class of all time by the way is athlete monitoring here Eleanor Ryan and when we did our final project I was able to talk to you know the different coaches or I'm sorry the different students who did the project about how would you use this thing you built in communicating with coaches like you know as you and, as all of us know, you can't just say, hey, this guy, he's going to get hurt

if you play him today. The coach would fire you and that would be that. It's like, so I can talk to them about how you communicate versus instead of saying, hey, you're pushing this guy too hard, making the coach mad at you, you could say,

it would appear that the effect size of the high-level sprints for player number one is extremely high. Studies would say that maybe he's at risk of injury. It's for you to know. Then it gives him

the power to do what he needs to do versus me saying you're going to hurt him. You see the difference? And so it's a very small difference, but it's a big one. It's like if I attack the coach or if I say – if I attack his ability to program for his athletes, I'm going to get fired. You know, that's what I'm going to do. But if I say, hey, it appears, you know, this guy's running too many reps,

you know, maybe he's on the level to get hurt. Do what you want. That leads it up to him. Then he's going to look smart for making the decision to not play the guy or something. You know what I mean? I just had a very similar experience with this, but in a different context where I read a lot of books on many topics. And I read a lot of parenting books. And so I'll read something in a parenting book and then I'll,

I'll go parent with my new knowledge, but I'll tell my wife, you know, quote unquote, what to do based on what I learned in the books. And at one point came to me and was like, Hey, you need, you need to say the book says to do this or research says to do this. Not like I'm telling her what to do. I got to, I got to shift to the book says it's basically what you just said research shows this now you can go make it like your own decision based on what the research shows so take note take note fellas wait she doesn't want you telling

her what to do yeah the book's on all things like i'm the smart one here you should do this i know what's going on. And then you're wondering why no sex. You know, you're like, God, I haven't had sex since February. Yeah. Maybe I should quit telling her what she should do. I don't feel so diesel anymore. Never realized how close it is.

No diesel. All dad. The coach, the strength coach, the team head coach, that relationship is very similar to husband and wife. If you're not careful, you will get fired. Number two,

they won't take advice because they'll go the opposite of what you're telling them. Because they feel like you're offending them. So it's all about how you say it. What are most of, like, what are your plans, maybe not so much, like, after, but are you planning on staying in academia and, like, staying in the lab, basically? That would definitely be my plan. I think after 2024, after the Olympics, I will probably do less of the coaching and more of academia. And I really like developing products, educational things,

like a weightlifting course. It would be cool to do an athlete monitoring course. That's my next thing I'm working on. And so that's what I thing I'm working on. And so, um, that's what I, that's what I'd rather do develop products, teach people, you know,

be a professor and, um, less coaching. So what is the general thought of most of the people in your program? I, I, I feel like you have such an awesome angle to talk about this because you've been so successful as a coach in business, all that fun stuff leading up to this moment.

What is like said 25-year-old person with their PhD, 27-year-old person with their PhD with eight years of schooling, what are they going to do? Are they trying to go into academia or are they trying to get into like living in a gym or living in a locker room and, and coaching it, the collegiate level. I think most of them are looking to use it in coaching or, you know, I don't, I don't know. I don't think many of them are trying to be, you know, PhD other than me, like, you know, Crystal, she is a Christian college Morgan's mama. She is, she's getting her master's as well. And I know her goal is not to do PhD.

She just wants to be a better coach. And so I would say that's it. Some girl, there's one girl who was like a personal trainer at a gym, say a gold gym somewhere. So they just wanted to be better at coaching, which I do believe it's made them better coaches for sure. So I don't know how many are trying to be PhDs. Like, don't do it unless you really, really want to.

Well, yeah, that's a really interesting thing because, like, obviously I don't have a PhD. I have an MBA. I have zero actual academic schooling in strength and conditioning, just a whole lot of banging barbells for a long time. And it'll take you a long ways. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I actually really respect that you went back to do it because obviously your lifting career was slightly more successful than mine being world champion. Um, but to, to actually look at yourself and go like, where are the biggest holes? Oh, I don't have this degree. Like I don't have anything that's published. I just have a bunch

of blogs that I've written, which is also great. And tons of people have learned from them, but it's to going to go back and do that. I feel like it it it takes a lot of it takes a lot of like internal trying to get better and figuring out what has changed the most in your view of like academics or academia in strength and conditioning because i would imagine at some point in your life you're like those nerds over there they don't know what they're talking about i deadlift a thousand pounds i think what's changed is now i feel like the need for it is greater than I even realized. It's like,

I feel like, um, yeah, I could have easily said, Hey, why don't I need to do that? I'm a world champion. Why do I need to do that?

I have 32 missing athletes. Well, I had 26 when I came here, four new ones, but like, um, so I could have easily said, I don't,

I don't need to go to school. Like a lot of people do. And a lot of people are really missing out because I see such holes in their game. And that, you know, a lot of times when you get a good program like mine, like you'll get great athletes because of your name. And so like, are you producing athletes because you're a good coach? Are you producing a good, good athletes because you're a good coach? Are you producing good athletes because you're attracting them? And then are you maximizing their genetics? I see a lot that are not.

They're definitely not maximizing genetics because they're saying that very thing, I don't need to go back to school. Yes, you do, because there's a lot of holes in your game, and I see them. Now that I know what I know, I'm glad I went back to school even more than I thought I would. So, yeah, there was definitely holes in my game. And there's definitely arguments that will never happen again because I know the answers. Yeah. Yes, man. And like, gosh, I think about like the hours of arguing between Don and sean waxman how useless that shit was like

literally how much time was wasted on that argument when none of it matters sure yeah uh i think about now that we're like uh now that i have a peek into like andy galpin's world yeah and like really understanding that it i've never i've always thought that I was like pretty good at this. Like I know a lot of stuff about getting people in shape and lifting weights. But I don't understand it on the level of like specificity and how all the stuff actually happens. Like how do you actually get strong? It's kind of off-putting because now that I know

what that looks like and I know the people that are actually doing the work in the labs and I know how smart they actually are, I have a hard time going on instagram and seeing somebody like talk about something i go you don't even you you literally have no idea what you're

talking about you literally have no clue because i know that information it sucks it doesn't it's cool because it like has wildly re-inspired me to like get better at what I do and learn and like really dig into all this stuff. I've actually had like more interest in going way deeper in the past two months than I have in a while because I just thought everything was so simple. But it's not. It's not. It's so complex and if you truly wanted to understand it all it's a forever question yeah you can't just go lift weights for a couple decades and know the answer no like you may you may have an understanding of high level ideas but

you don't understand all the mechanisms in play and And just like Dan Garner just sent me this video of like everything going on inside me and literally talked very little about like how I need to build more muscle or how I can get leaner or any of that. It was like, you should definitely improve your immune function. Your immune system's compromised and it's holding you back. And like I had never thought about lifting weights and my immune system in the same conversation ever. And from that second on, I was like, holy crap, this is like, this is like a completely different framework to the same thing I've been doing forever that I've never thought about. And now it's, it's, it's just re-inspired me because I had never, I'd never like been inside

their brains. Like we asked the questions, we have them on the show, but few people are able to literally go that deep and change the framework of what's going on and those two dudes and working with them and and being a part and like seeing their processes and um it's it's it's really crazy it's like it's so important and it it bothers me in a way now when i i go online and i'm like i see somebody that's like my friend and i'm like yeah i i know you that. I know that information can help a lot of people, but I actually – you should go talk to that guy. Right. And like really learn this shit because what you're saying is the same thing everyone's saying, and none of those people actually know. They haven't been in the lab.

They haven't studied it. They haven't written the book on it. They haven't published the book on it. They haven't published the paper on it. And the likely the most important part of all of the PhDs is it, or all of the papers that you guys are writing and stuff you're doing. It's like, it's the sitting around the table and going like, how do we do this? It's like, because anybody can go and recite that paper on Instagram and be like, this is the best thing for hypertrophy. And you go,

well, yeah, no, that's what the paper said. But you weren't a part of the conversation where we bounced like 15 ideas around and kind of like structured this thing off of a framework, off of an idea and a brainstorm that led to this thing. Like there's an entire context to the to to what's being put out that i had never been i had never had access to that we we have now and it's so crazy like if people talk about like imposter syndrome i've never had it more than i have had now and literally knowing like you and dan and galpin and like seeing what's going on in your phd programs and what those guys do and what you're building and all the stuff it's like i don't even want to go on instagram because no matter what i put out it's just regurgitated bullshit about stuff that like can help you but it go talk to that guy like that guy's insane they know so much one of the best parts about them though both andy

and dan is that they know more than basically everybody they're very smart but they also are totally aware that they don't know it all which is why yeah they read research for hours every day trying to learn more because the more you learn i'd imagine the more you know you don't know and they just they just keep perpetually wanting to learn more which the more you learn, I'd imagine, the more you know you don't know. And they just keep perpetually wanting to learn more, which is why they know so much. Yeah, like as you build this spreadsheet out, you're probably like, oh, I'm leaving so much out. Like, ah, things so not complete, yet you're about to get your PhD. And you study this thing every single day. You've slept like eight hours total in the last three months.

And you're still probably like, damn, it's not right yet. It's not good enough. You've got to get better. Luckily, you know, I have the rest of my life to keep going. You know, I think whatever I've learned, I'm just going to keep, you know, I'm going to keep down this path. I love this, so I don't think I'll ever stop. You know, Andy's the one who made me – this is – you know,

my wife should call him because it's his fault. When I talked to him at Chris's wake, you know, like at that moment, it was like, okay, I'm going to get my PhD someday. Because he makes being a nerd sexy. He really does. I was like, I've always been like, ah, what a puss, you know. But talking to Andy, I was like, yeah, that's what I want to do too. So I have to give him a shout out.

Yeah, when you look at the work that they do with the clients they do it with, it's like if you're a professional athlete, you do not want to hire me to be your strength coach. You don't want to hire me to be your nutritionist. You're like, sure, I can tinker with some calories and I can get you to eat more protein and we can, like, do this stuff. But I can't do what those guys do. I don't have that.

I don't have it. And that's real. And every single thing that is the latest and greatest has to come through their hands. Like, I feel like that's, in a real sense, like like that's the coolest part about where you're at. You are already respected as like the best weightlifting coach in the country. And now in order – once this program is done, now in order for some idea to even be considered the next cool thing or a real study, well, did Travis mash PhD sign off on it? Cause that's like kind of where those guys are at, you know,

like Galpin sees everything that comes through. Yeah. And he, he could either look at it and go, Oh yeah, that makes sense. Or yeah, that makes me think about this and it makes me think about this and it's

related to this, but it's got to go through, it's got to go through those eyeballs it's got to be filtered through that those hands before it matters yeah you know andy and lane lane orton too you know it's like yeah seeing those dudes talk and debate you know well like andy doesn't ever get caught up too much in the whole debates but you know watching lane you know debate i get it because like when you know what you know and like you see people like taking people's money lying it's hard i don't i i get more than ever why lane

norton does what he does is because he's like these dudes are lying to people and making money and it drives him crazy and so now i know for sure he needs to keep doing what he's doing there's a lot of snake oil salesmen out there right now, man. Like you need to really be careful more than ever of who you're giving your money to. So I don't say, I don't think they need to be a PhD, but if they're telling you something that seems way different than everyone else, it could be a good thing, but probably it's, it's bulls. What it is. And like, they're stealing your money.

So, yeah, good for Lane and good for Andy. It's really crazy. I'm stoked because you get to find all the stuff. Like, you're going to know what the next thing is before, like, you really will have, like, access to the next actual big study and be involved in it. Like, MASH et al. MASH it is.

Oh, my gosh. Good work, bud. You did it. MASH et al. That'll be exciting. Like soon, you know, I'll get my first one as long as they don't reject it. But, yeah, it'll be mainly what I'm focusing on is like simply like athlete monitoring, and velocity seems to be a big part of what i'm doing um even though even the this this first thesis of velocity has been a big part of it i feel like um

now when brian man and i have a conversation it's totally different it's a it's a much better one i feel like i have as much well no way he's got lots of data but he doesn't have data on weightlifters so a lot of his data was incorrect when it comes to being applied to weightlifters you know it's just it's different what i mean but quickly what i mean by that is this is when he talked about snaps and clean and jerk um peak velocities that are required to do those movements the for the average person, I agree. But a weightlifter can go way slower and still make a lift.

Because they're so good at that movement. That's what I'm saying. Does that make sense? Yeah. The football players are going to pull it higher because they don't have as good a rhythm. They probably can't get as low. But now we're getting good data points on weightlifters now too. Not that there's on weightlifters now too so yeah not that there's many weightlifters when when is your big project due uh that one in the next semester will be

finished so the first the thesis and then um and then the now start on my dissertation, which will be along the same lines. It'll be something in athlete monitoring, velocity, one of those categories. Such a long process. Yeah, it is. It is, you know, plus all the coaching. Luckily, the certification has done really well, so it's kind of given me a focus in my business now. I see where a good hole is that I can feel. So I've learned a lot.

This has been the hardest semester of my entire life. But I'm finishing up by having learned the most I've ever learned. So it's good. Funny how that works out, huh? Yeah. No kidding. Where can people find you? This time, go to

StrongerExperts.com. Look at that. Backslash weight lifting course, right? Weightlifting certification. Sorry. There you go. StrongerExperts.com forward slash. Yeah, forward slash weightlifting certification. There it is.

Doug Larson. I'm on Instagram. Doug Larson. I'm Anders Varner at Anders Varner. We are barbell shrug to barbell underscore shrug. Make sure you get over to Walmart, 2,200 stores nationwide, three products on the shelf. If you don't see my face on the shelves, go to the other Walmart. Cause that means we're right down the street and the Walmart you're at.

Isn't that cool. You need to go to the really cool Walmart. And you can head over to diesel dad mentorships for all the busy dads strong, lean, and athletic friends. We'll see you guys next week.