Barn Burner: Boomer & Pinder with Rhett Warrener - Justin Bourne (FULL INTERVIEW)

Episode Date: August 4, 2026

Pinder is joined by Justin Bourne to discuss his upcoming book with Darryl Sutter, The Code of the West: Lessons From the Ranch and the Rink, which hits shelves on October 13. Justin shares what he learned from spending time with one of hockey's most fascinating coaches, while also looking back on growing up as the son of Bob Bourne, his own playing career, life under demanding coaches like Mike Babcock, his transition into writing, and working alongside Nick Kypreos on Real Kyper & Bourne. It's a conversation full of great hockey stories, behind-the-scenes insight, and a closer look at the man behind Darryl Sutter. Will you be picking up The Code of the West when it's released on October 13?Video Link: https://youtu.be/RJBexCV4Ii8https://www.amazon.ca/Code-West-Lessons-Ranch-Rink/dp/1037800648Subscribe to FN Barn Burner 🚨➡️ https://www.youtube.com/@FNBarnBurner📲 Follow Barn BurnerInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/fnbarnburner/X (Twitter): https://x.com/barnburnerfn🎧 Listen to the PodcastApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/be/podcast/barn-burner-boomer-pinder-with-rhett-warrener/id1648562889Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3Mc6Qd5U22R2zbMlQ7RxIi🛒 Barn Burner Merchhttps://nationgear.ca/collections/flamesnation🎬 Watch Barn Burner Shortshttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLj_bcGtvvo-cW2DHEDZ6dEO5ePDmlhZc9Powered by our partners:• bet365 – http://www.bet365.ca/• McLeod Law – https://www.mcleod-law.com/• Village Honda – https://www.villagehonda.com/• Outdoor Dental – https://www.outdoor.dental/• Capital Chev – https://www.capitalchev.ca/• Crowfoot Dodge Chrysler – https://www.crowfootdodgechrysler.com/• Renfrew Chrysler – https://www.renfrewchrysler.ca/• Crystal Waters Plumbing Company – https://www.crystalwatersplumbingcompany.com/• Bon Ton Meat Market – https://www.bontonmeatmarket.com/• Templ – https://drinktempl.com/• Sundre Golf Club – https://www.sundregolf.com/• Taco Time Canada – https://tacotimecanada.com/• Adrenalin Source for Sports – https://www.sourceforsports.ca/pages/adrenalin-source-for-sports-calgary• GMC – https://www.gmccanada.ca/en/trucks/sierra-1500• Greta Bar – https://gretabar.com/calgary/Business [e-mail]: Jack Haverstock#NHL #Hockey #CalgaryFlames #EdmontonOilers Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Barnburner. Another summer long form brought to by Bet365. Canada just hit the biggest home run of the summer. Bet 365 is available in Alberta and here to stay. Download the app. Must be 19 years of age. Please play responsibly. The McLeod Law Studios a little bit here, a little bit in Toronto today. Any legal needs cross your desk this summer or ever. It's always MacLeod-law.com. Today, a broadcaster, a former player, a man of many skills, including author. When Darrell Sutter's involved, you know we're getting involved. Here's our chat with the co-author of his autobiography, Justin Bourne. Our next guest is a former hockey player,

of actual former assistant coach in the American League, turned sports writer, broadcaster, and now, again, a published author. Let's welcome in Justin Bourne from the Kippenbornborn Show in Toronto. And of the new book dropping in the fall, The Code of the West. It is a co-author, Daryl Sutter autobiography, which in this part of the world,

Justin, people were fired up to hear about it. What was it two months ago? I say, you know, I'm like, we got to talk about this. This is going to be a hit in Alberta. Yeah, no, I'm pumped. I'm pumped that people seem excited about it. I know I'm really excited about it.

It's funny. Like, Darrell is a unique man, you know. Like, if you want to hear someone's take on something, he will give you an authentic thought-out take. And so for him to kind of give that perspective on the whole hockey world, I thought it was cool. I'm really grateful to him for letting me be a part of his story. Yeah, amazing.

How did this opportunity arise? I was looking. I think there was a book that was done on Daryl or with Daryl in the late 90s, but a lot's happened since then, including those two cups in L.A., which probably put him on a Hall of Fame trajectory, never mind his incredible stop in Calgary, which was sort of a golden era of sorts here in Calgary, a low bar to meet to get to the final, it'd be a golden era,

but true for this franchise and a guy that felt like, you know, if you can be the parade marshal of the Stampede, you're one of us kind of thing. But how did the Daryl all? opportunity arise. Well, you know, I have a guy at Penguin who liked my writing over the years. And so we have talked about some opportunities and we ended up kind of settling on my own story for my first book. I had just been through, you know, not to give the whole background on me or whatever, but, you know, went to rehab for drinking and dad played in the NHL and some of that sort of stuff. So he's like, why just write your story? I think, you know, you have a compelling way of writing. So I did that. And it did

well. The book was well received and they wanted to work with me again. But he was like, here's the thing. You can write two books that do okay. And then you go to Amazon or Indigo or any of these algorithms or whatever. And they go, we don't want a third book. They want Marvel, right? They want a big number before they want to do a third book. They want to see one of them do really well. And so the types of things that do well these days are autobiographies. They asked if I would consider writing one. And if so, who would I want to write it about? So you kind of run through the list and like a lot of the more famous players in hockey have written something or have done something, whether it's Orr or Gretzky or whatever, Lemieux is the white whale. I haven't quite landed

the Mario Lemieux boat. But you know, Daryl's like in the next tier of guys that like I want their opinion. How did this career happen? How do you have six brothers in the NHL and stay a farmer and win cups? And he's a fascinating guy to me. And I reached out and called because his brothers, Brent and Duane played online with my dad with the Islanders. So we had some family. family tie and I kind of cold called them. I was like, would you have any interest? And he was, we started the ball rolling. Incredible. Let's get to your background first here.

And by the way, Daryl topped here in Alberta. There's Mario book. If I've got time, Darrell book, nurse, cancel my two o'clock. He's the man out here for sure. Tell us what growing up being Bob Bourne's son, a guy that played on one of the last dynasties you could argue in the NHL. And what was life like as a youngster? How old were you when you realized what your dad was or what he meant to a fan base?

It's actually a really good question because I don't think during it, I realized it at all. I was probably like seven or so when his career was over. So it's funny because now I look back at it and I went to a game and Wayne Gretzky handed me one of those silver aluminums and signed it. You know, and I have that at home and like, you know, I have these sort of things that now I'm like, oh my God. You know, like that's pretty crazy. I, you know, I had some cool experiences. One of them, one of my favorite ones is my brother's in a wheelchair, Jeff, and going through the Calgary Flames and Vancouver Canucks,

they were the road teams, dressing rooms, just pushing him through their rooms and just getting everyone to sign stuff. Like today, it probably wouldn't happen before a game, but we were two hours till puck drop, and we're just in there getting autographs. So there were some really cool things. I think, you know, when I, when my dad ended his career, we moved to Colonna, B.C., which is where I grew up. And, you know, at the time, they spent too much money.

We had a nice house of a long driveway. And I remember people taking the walk down the driveway to get to our house to get my dad's autograph. And I remember being like, all right, this is not a common thing. I mean, you started to have some sort of concept for where it is. And yeah, as you get older, it's like, oh, wow, Canada Cup and Bill National Trophy and led the playoffs. and scoring for the Islanders one year. It's some really cool things. So I definitely appreciate it more now as I've gotten older.

So when you're growing up, do people know you're Bob Bourne's kid? Like, well, this kid's clearly going to be, you know, the next grade NHL or was it clear that you weren't going to be that? Because you did play a lot of great hockey, but you were sort of left on the doorstep of the NHL, which is incredible. Many of us would give an organ to get that far. But it was, you're also just that close from his sort of level of achievement, right? Yeah, it's funny, man.

like no definitely not um you know my parents got divorced when i was like i don't know nine like a couple years after my dad played in the nchl and he went on to coach in the iHL and a hl he was in central texas and utah and vegas he was in the u.s so it was me my brother and my mom and i was playing house hockey and brap hockey and uh now it's west cologne it was just west side when i was growing up west side warriors back when i was going to yeah yeah so you know i I never played even on like the A rep team for my age group, not in peewee, not in Bantam. And then there wasn't, everyone quits. People discover booze and girls and they quit.

And I was still playing hockey at 14 or 15 and made the A team for midget. But at the same time, I happen to grow like six inches. I could always score. And then when I suddenly I was six inches taller and it was like, that gets tall and scores a lot. I started to get more opportunities than, you know, then started to put in the work at that it was like, hey, I'm kind of good. And, you know, I just, I literally like every small rung, like I junior B after that and junior eight after that and two years there in college, like it just sort of chipped away.

And it wasn't until a second year college. I was like, I'm kind of good at this level. Like, does that, you know, I have a chance to do something here. And definitely a late bloomer though. But then I'm like 22. Now we talk about 22 year olds like they're, oh, that's kids. You know, he's not going to make it if he hasn't made it yet. But I just don't believe till I was, I don't know, 24.

So I had the pleasure of calling games and working for the Penticton viz for four years. The Vernon Vipers were the big bad guys up the highway. And they've kind of taken turns being like a dominant force in what was then the BCHL. And now there's a lot of different changes and all that. But what do you remember about playing in Vernon? Because that is one of the premier junior rate markets in the country. Great building. You know, who was coaching?

Who owned it? Were you in the new rink? What were the rivalries like in the BC? league back then. I mean, I have the fondest of memories. You know, the new rink you're talking about was built my rookie year in Vernon. So it was sparkly new and, you know, a revelation to us at the time. So it was really cool to play there. Mike Vandicamp was my coach. And if you're around that level, you'd know Vandy. And he's got a pretty crazy reputation too. Some of that's in my book. But, you know, I look back at that. And if I like had told people, if today people know,

knew what happened then. You know, he'd have been canceled 20 times over and whatever, but like, it made me, it made me a man. Like, I needed someone to hold me up against the glass of a stick under my throat and say, you know, like get your act together. Like I didn't know how to work hard and I learned how to work hard there and I'm forever grateful for that. You know, some of it was maybe excessive.

But, you know, you hear about these coaches now, Mike Babcock. Oh, he hurt people's, you know, our people, a hard time on mental health or there's people who don't like darrell for similar reasons yeah i think when you push people which is your job not everyone is you're not going to nail it every time and you're going to be on the wrong side of the line sometimes and does that mean we shouldn't push people like it's just it's how it's going to shake out sometimes so that is i'm you know getting away from the vernon answer but i'm grateful for my time there Duncan ray was a wonderful owner at the time um i remember him walking around and he's uh god rest of soul he's a great man he's passed since but

But he gave us all a $100 bill, which is all I got for all my junior hockey. We won the BCHL and I got a $100 bill from Duncan Ray. That was pretty cool. So it gave us lots of exposure, lots of college opportunity. And, yeah, playing Pintechton, that was our number one rival, man. That barn was tight and the fans were loud. And I love playing there. Old Memorial.

Yeah, I was there for four years. And the first year was Memorial. The second they moved into that sparkling new SOEC, which has hosted so many of those prospect tournaments with the- years were you there? It would have been 0708 was the first year. And that was Fred Harbenson's first year. He's head coach, President GM still to this day.

He's added a lot of titles. And they have, of course, moved to the Western League. It had an incredible expansion season this year. But, yeah, it was one year basically playing in a facility that was used in the 50s. And the next, it was like, well, this is too big for the city, but we'll grow into it. So it was really interesting to go from 1,500 and stories of people hanging in the rafters, generations prior to watch big games before team. went off to Europe to play the Russians and then you're into this like oh yeah there's 5200 seats here what are we going to do with the empty 3,000 of them yeah that is the crazy transition there but that's

great it's working out Pindicton's an awesome city yeah I'm happy for them I want to get back to the like van de camp stuff because like the moment you start talking about him I immediately thought about Babcock and then you mentioned Babcock when the hiring was announced you know I know Mike commenter really well he's hilarious I think he doesn't give a shit what people say and he's just telling you what he thinks I don't think he's this guy that's starting for attention that needs to make up some crazy narrative to get attention. Mike's got a lot of attention. He doesn't need

anymore. He was trying to get to Carolina to go, you know, do the old crank at the hurricane Stanley Cup final game when that news broke. The last thing he wanted was his social was blowing up with more Mike Babcock stuff. But when I talked about it, we have we have noodles on from TSN every Wednesday on

the show. And you know, the conversation is like, is Mike Babcock going to fit with this group? And, you know, where is Mike Babcock at? Is he different guy. We watched press conference, I'm not so sure, but at that time it hadn't happened. And he and Rhett really kind of took exception to the notion that like he bullied guys. And I was listing the names of the guys that have been public on the record about saying this is a bad human that you did horrible things to me. I didn't sleep. And it kind of gets back to

the heart of that conversation where it's like, if your job is to get the absolute pinnacle effort out of someone, it kind of can justify some behavior that we won't accept if you're working at a or a hospital and certainly not the public library or at an elementary school, but that if we are in pro sports and winning is held above all else, Rhett and Noodles kind of took exception to me talking about bullying like it was bad, and I kind of get it because they'd played under Darrell, and they'd seen that Darrell could push you to a spot where you probably wanted to ring his neck. And then an hour later, after a game, you'd see you in the hall and say,

how's your family, one of your folks in town, what's new with your brother, like that sort of stuff. It's, it really is this really, really fine line that these hard coaches have to walk now and that they did with probably a little more impunity or immunity 20 years ago. Totally. I mean, totally. And, you know, that time, that time before was not this time now. You know, that was, I would say we've had a massive cultural swing from when was Babs of the Red Wings in the late 90s? Like, you know, I made some early 2000.

Really? double os yeah yeah you know like it's it's we've undergone a massive cultural swing and that's not to approve everything mike's done or say mics without whatever mike's got a massive ego and people don't like them and that's fine but i was with mike when he was at the leaps and i was at the marleys a hl video coach i'm a peon to him and he treated me great and i saw him work with our staff and i saw him work with their staff and he works hard. He knows his stuff. He's no nonsense. Like he's, I think he's a very good coach. The reality with hockey is you can only do so much tactically. You have to have two defensemen. One's not enough. Three's too many.

You have to have two. You have to have three guys up as a result of that. There's only so much you can do positionally. So it's not like we're going to have Bill Belichick come in and run some massive tactical you need someone who gets the most out of human beings and that's the job and so I don't know in hockey that the nice guy the positive reinforcement guy I don't know if that's the answer like go you I look at the list of guys who've won cups as a coach over the last 15 years a lot of guys are pretty tough you know and I don't think that's a coincidence it's probably why we revered John Cooper so much because he presents as the exact opposite as the outlier away, right? It's not Cassidy,

who, oh, Hill, we're out is welcome soon, and it's not these, you know, God, I hate it playing for that guy. We locked the door on Bob Hartley after we won the cup, those sorts of stories, right? But you don't think Cooper, like, you don't think he's kind of a hard ass in his own way, the way he's smart and almost mean,

like he's like cannibal Lecter, like you think, I feel like he could talk to you to you swallowed your own tongue. Like, I do feel like Cooper has an element where yes, just because he's thoughtful, doesn't mean that he's not pushing guys are expecting a lot of them and I think he's got that element to him. Village Honda is proud to be your dealership for life since 1987 in Calgary,

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GMC dealer today to take advantage of employee pricing for you before it ends. Let's get back to another summer edition of Barnburner. Tell us about playing in Alaska. Anchorage. There was two programs up in Alaska. It is unlike any other place that NCAA hockey has played. You were flying everywhere unless you're doing the Alaska battle, but you would have played some really good hockey and some really good players in a pretty remote place. Yeah. Yeah, you still fly in the Alaska battle. Fairbanks is. Really? Yeah. It was awesome, man. You know, it was the one way, it was perfect for me because if you're Alaska, you can't get the best

players. You just can't. They're not, they're not going there. So Alaska was in the best league. They won the national championship, the WCHA five straight times, I think, when I was a freshman, four or five straight times. So we did play Jonathan Taves and Tj. Osi and Phil Kessel and Kyle Lopozo and Blake Wheeler, Thomas Vanick. It was loaded. Yeah. So we couldn't get those players. So they had older players. Jonathan Taves played as an 18 year old. I played against Taves when I was 23, you know, and I can hang with tapes with a five-year head start. I could hang with them, but not, you know, at that age, obviously. So I got to play in that league against great players as an older player who was a late bloomer. So for me, it was the perfect sort of mix. And I love

the, the travel was really cool. It was just every week was awesome because you're playing in Wisconsin in front of 15,000 people in Minnesota in front of 10,000. You know, North Dakota just had a fairly new building when we started to go there. You know, there was a lot of really great road cities. And then we would stay on Saturday nights because you didn't fly out until Sunday. So how many kids in college spent the night Saturday nights in Madison, Wisconsin, and North Dakota and Minnesota and Michigan, you know, like it was, it was awesome. So I had nothing but a great experience, probably too great an experience to where it hampered

my ability to be an effective college hockey player. but I have yeah I'm very a great experience up there and it's it's sad seeing it inevitably sort of work its way out of the premium leagues because it's just you're not going to be able to draw we used to joke about Arizona State. So we should just drop out of here where it's cold winter and just go play club hockey at ASU and now they're D1 and pretty darn good. Yeah, seriously. When did you know that pro hockey was going to be a small check every week and not a career?

Because eventually that reality sinks in. It probably happens pretty quick when you're up against guys in their late 20s that are like, I'll fight you. This is my dinner money. I have a family. Yeah. You know, every level I just kind of got there and was like, let's just see where I'm at. And I started slowly.

And then pretty soon I was like, I'm pretty good here. And my second year in college, I led our team in goals and was like, okay, I'm decent here. And so the next year when I got out, I think I knew my age. I was 23, you know, coming out of it as not even a prospect, really. I had two NHL camp invites after that senior year and chose the one where my dad played in hopes that it would give me a leg up. I think anyone would have done that. And I signed a two-way AHL-E-CHL contract. And once I started playing against the American League guys, like, I just didn't feel like they were men, like just big, strong dudes, you know,

who worked out for a living. A lot of them, you know, guys who came from the dub and just had been playing that brand of hockey, which wasn't college. And it took me a sec to get my feet under me. I think I had a couple of points after 20-some games. I started in the ECHL. And then I kind of found it.

And I was a point per game for the next 30 games and ended up in the American League for three months total or something like that. But like, okay, now there's another year gone. Now I'm 24, going on 25. And it's just, I'm not. dumb. And so I was kind of having the talk of myself like, you're going to have to get a job at some point. This isn't it? Should I go to Europe and try to have that life experience, which would

be really cool. And that was certainly tempting. You know, what do you want to do with it before you start over? But I knew the later I pushed it, the harder it was going to be. And so the next year, I went back to play in the American League again just to see, because I made the ECHL All-Star team. And I was like, maybe I can just keep getting better. And you never know, be someone, one of those weird kids who develops late. And I went into camp out of shape. I tore an MCL. Like by Christmas, it was going bad. I'd come back and retorn the MCL. And then on, sorry, on my birthday, I came back. And I took a slap shot in the face and shattered my jaw. And that's when I was like, this whole year, I wasn't going to play that year. And so I just knew my career. Now you're 25,

26 and it's over. So for me, it was like I just had to be realistic. So what does life present you at that point. Did you always know you had a gift with writing or was that something that you had to nurture along the way or that you figured out late that you had? No, it definitely didn't know necessarily. I did take English as a minor in university, but I had an uncle who was a sports writer in Saskatoon. All my family's from Saskatchewan. So he was a sports writer there. And so we were, I was in wires for two months, man. I was drinking liquid percassette and watching like the Westminster dog show while the team's on the road. So that sounds awful.

It was brutal. So we were emailing about sporting events as they were happening back and forth. And he thought the emails were entertaining. He was a sports writer. He was like, you start a blog. Everyone was starting a blog then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those old WordPress blogs.

And so I started one. And like within a month, people thought it was interesting that someone that was actively in pro hockey had a blog. And it got to the hockey news somehow. And I wrote a couple of guest posts for them. I made 15 bucks for those. 15 bucks an article. Yeah.

And just kind of told my story, you know, again. That was kind of like my way in. And so that summer, my wife, well, my then girlfriend, now wife had just finished her master's program to be an occupational therapist. And it was like, all right, I was in Boise, Idaho. I was done. I wasn't playing hockey. She was done her degree. We could live anywhere on the continent.

We're both dual citizens. We were like, where do you want to live? And so we literally were just like considered our option. She has a sister in Boston and we just visited Arizona. She had a job offer in Arizona where it's cheap to live. It's warm and I hadn't live somewhere warm. And we just said, let's do it. So I moved to Arizona.

And at that time, the hockey blogging had kind of picked up a little bit. And she said, I'll give you one year to see if you can make it with this media stuff. And it felt like a shame to waste my life education. My dad played. I was playing and it felt like a shame to waste it. And almost a year to the day, the score hired me full time in Toronto. They let me stay in Arizona to work for a year with the agreement that I would come to Toronto after a year. And I did.

Incredible. You had some Puck Daddy debuts. That was a big hockey blog back in the early blogosphere. Yeah. Yeah. So when I was piecing my income together, hockey news is giving me 15 bucks. I think Wysinski and Puck Daddy gave me 25 bucks. And I did once a week for USA Today.

day for $100. So over the course of the month, you know, I was making, I don't know, $600 or something like that, you know, just trying to get my name out there. The Puck Daddy stuff was really great. I eventually, when I got hired at the score, it was like to run their hockey blog. And so I got to hire some freelance writers. And it caused a rift because I just tried to hire all the freelance writers that Puck Daddy had.

You guys, you liked. Oh, shoot. I was just, he's still mad at me. that like I try to hire his people who are freelance. I'll remind you. Yes. Anyway, so it was, it was a cool experience. But yeah, all those places gave me a platform and I'm glad it worked out as it did.

How long was your chapter of the athletic? Yeah, so that was, I was at the Marleys or with the Marley's for a couple years as their video coach. And I had my son was born and I did two years of the Marley's and the travel was really hard. My son was turning one. And they did offer me another contract to come back and do that. But the athletic had just launched. And I reached out to them. And I said, here's what I make with the Marleys.

Would you match that? And they were like, yeah, we would. And I was like, okay, I work for you now. You know, it's just like, deal. This gave me a way to stop traveling, to be around and to continue having a steady income. So yeah, I just toggled the switch back to media guy. Amazing. I imagine that was James Myrtle because he was kind of spearheading all things hockey at that point.

I know I kept contact with him. It was funny. You were doing some, I think, hockey camps in Colonna. He's a Cameloup's guy. I was working in Penticton. Everyone had a blog at the time. He was a desker at the Globe and had a blog before he got to the athletic. But it's so funny.

You look back and then it was like Tyler Dello was writing. And, you know, 20, 30 years later, all these nerds in their basement actually have careers. It's crazy. And like, you can see the same arguments and conversations happening. It's like, no, no, no. We already solved that. Like we've been through the cycles. a lot of this stuff.

Yeah, it's, it is funny seeing where, where it's all gone to, Tyler Delo getting his name on the cup, obviously this year is a pretty cool climax for a lot of it. But no, the blogosphere still, I still feel like a blogger and I hate that I get,

oh, you mainstream media and, you know, Leapstead or whatever. And it's like, I'm a blogger. I'm not one of you. But no,

I don't think I can't win. I'm either typing in my mom's basement or I'm mainstream. Like, Oh, yeah, the blogger seeing me as mainstream and mainstream sees me as a guy who didn't play in the NHL. So. Crazy. Tell us about how you met your wife and the incredible tie-in. And I suppose the decision you have to make when you can go pull up the old man's highlights on YouTube.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's, you know, my dad got inducted into the Islanders Hall of Fame, 2005 or six. And so I was in Alaska at the time. The Islanders flew me out. They were like, yeah, come see your dad conducted. It was so cool. and so they put me up in a hotel and the day before my dad's like,

you're not staying at a hotel. You're staying at my best friend's house and his best friends, Clark Gillies. Clark being the Islanders, tough guy and Hall of Famer. And I don't care. Yeah, I'll stay at the Gillies. So, you know, I get a car from the airport from the Islanders and they take me to the Gillies house and it's Thanksgiving day. And in the U.S., Thanksgiving is like everyone's hung over.

All the 20-year-olds have come back to town. They've gone out the night before and everyone's hung over. and I, I rung the doorbell and Clark's daughter, you know, came out hurting, you know, from the night before. And they got three Newfoundland dogs, like 150 pounds each. They all came out. And, you know, I was greeted by by this whole crew at the Gillies. And, you know, it was pretty cool being around there, like hearing some of the tyans and all that.

And that was Brianna, who Brianna Gillies, who had a boyfriend at time. And, you know, but I had quite the interest in her. So we, we stayed in touch after and her, actually, her MySpace status changed a single and I sent her a message. MySpace. Yes. Yeah. So, yeah, we, our families were literally, my dad and Clark bought houses beside each other. They bought on lots and built beside each other.

So we grew up as next door neighbors until we were five. And then I didn't see her until 25. Crazy. But there's, you know, when they used to get the cup for a week. So my dad and Clark. would sit on the back deck that they had and they'd have the cup there for like two weeks. Dogs eaten out of it.

It's just sitting on the back. So it's pretty funny. Our families are obviously very close. So how many rings between the two grandpas? They both got all four. So my, I know. So eight rings between them.

I know my son just got out of house hockey at nine years old the other day. I was like, some people are waiting to see how this experiment goes, bud. You don't want to step it up a little bit. That's right. These damn good check kids are putting pressure on everyone who's dad is good. Okay, I'm going to get to the Daryl book,

but I got to get you to talk to us about down and back, your first book, because it's acknowledging something that is in the dark and that people don't want to talk about and you kind of have to come clean on behavior that you're probably not proud of in the sense that you basically said, I was a functioning alcoholic. How did you get to the point where you were ready to write a book

and, you know, how much courage did it take to sit down and say, I'm ready to tell the story to everyone. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you know, down and back was, I used to think about it a lot when I was actually an active alcoholic that I kind of felt like I knew I would either have to stop drinking or it was going to kill me. Like, and I was very aware of that.

It was one of two roads. Like my wife was going to leave me, which, you know, she was made very clear. you know, I was going to, I was lying to my bosses. Like, it was all starting to come unglued for me. And I kind of knew that it was going to either stop or get better. But I just didn't want to stop yet. If I was going to have to stop, I didn't want to have to, you know, it was just gone forever. I knew once I stopped.

So for the last two years of my active alcoholism, I kind of knew it was coming. And I was just postponing the day. A lot of days were like, tomorrow's the day. And then it was never the next day. but yeah man like it got really bad even though the marley's job i you know kept a dasani bottle with vodka in it to get me through the days without shaking and you know like i it was very physically addicted to it at that time and you know my dad has gone through it and as you know and down and back that's a big theme of it is that it's in my family it greatly affected my dad's life

and there are two parts to the book that involve my dad that are need to be discussed one is that I asked his permission to tell his story to make sure he was okay with me putting that out there. And the other part was that as I was writing the book, he was at the lowest point he'd ever been, you know, where really seeing rotten things to me. And I, you know, we were at the point where it wasn't good. And so that I wrote the book from that place. And I have, you know, it feels uncomfortable because the book when it came out kind of helped our relationship. You know, he didn't realize how bad it had gotten.

He's gotten sober. we've come a long way since the book, which is really positive, but I just wanted to put all that out there and have other people know that like, I don't think people thought I was an active alcohol. I know people around me did, but I don't know if people online did necessarily. And so there's a lot of people out there that we don't think of that are having a hard time, that are having a hard time.

And so as soon as my book came out, I've been in contact with people to this day every week. It was for a long time every day. And all I can do is kind of point them in the direction I went and what worked for me. But the book has been a great bridge for me to family, to other people. And I'm glad that it was received like it was. Well, and it had to take a huge amount of courage to do it and to see all the positive outcomes.

I mean, God, that's incredible. You've got to be proud. Yeah, I am proud of it. You know, it's, I do wish that I could almost add an addendum since then. I wrote it four years sober. It's been another three years since. And I just am continually learning. And, you know, maybe eventually that there will be something like that.

But the best thing for me is that the program that I use involves other people and I'm in contact with them daily. And it's like therapy. It's just like being able to, you know, some days you wake up and your ego is in your own way. You're mad at someone else or you whatever. It just, it's like daily therapy that helps me through it. And I think a lot of people who drink who aren't alcoholics could use. some people to lean on the way I have that. So my program's given me that.

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The Argos fighting it a little bit. They've lost a couple close ones over the last few weeks here. They're actually coming off a buy. It's their second buy already this season. So the stamps Thursday in Toronto, wrap up the roadie, return home. The next home game is next Thursday. August 13th, they take on the BC Lions. It'll be made in Calgary night over at McMahon.

The stamps salute the fans and the people who make Calgary great, some local music, homegrown talent, and some just darn good Calgarians. are going to be recognized throughout the game, which will be a big stampedeers and lions. Got a feeling they're going to be fighting it out for playoff position. Tickets available for that game, of course, at stampeters.com. Barnburner is a presentation of Bet365. Check out Bet365's early payout for baseball.

When your team goes up by five, you get paid. It's that simple. Download the app today. 18 plus in Alberta. Please play responsive. Thank you, Bet365. Now, back to the show. Well, once the Sutter book blows up, that's book three, obviously.

No, man, I need it. There you go. I love it. Okay, so, Darrell, you give him the call. We're going to circle back and get back to where we almost started. Yeah. You see to get a hold of or not? Because you said, you know the brothers, but at some point, it's you and Daryl on the phone.

And you're like, does he know who I am or not? Yeah. No, I was very easy to get his number through my dad, brothers. I have had those contacts and we had literally never spoken before and introduced myself. And I think he had some idea. He watches a lot of hockey. And so he had seen me a time or two. And I just kind of laid out my idea, why I was interested.

And, you know, if he'd have interest. And once he was, then I went back to Penguin Publishing and said, yeah, I think he might be interested. How much can we offer him? That's the next step. Is there something, whatever? And then what would I like to make out of that? And I only tell you this part because it's a great Daryl story where I said to Daryl, here's how much they'd be willing to pay you.

And here's how much of that I would want. And Daryl's quiet for a minute. He goes, well, Justin, I don't think that's very fair. He's quiet for a sec. And he goes, I think you should get a bigger piece of it than that. And I was just like, oh, reverse negotiating, you know? Like I've never had that experience before. And he was from the jump.

looking out for me. I had my son go to his farm and we spent some time out there. And you got a picture of him. My son shooting his first gun out in Daryl's ranch and driving a tractor. You know, he really treated us great. And so it was really cool because our lives do have a lot of overlap. Like my mom is friends with his brother's wives. And like we kind of have this Islanders overlap and NHL overlap.

So getting to know him was really cool. being my first autobiography, maybe I would do it different now just because I didn't, I just talked to them and recorded it. No organization just like had all these questions I wanted to ask them. So going back through it was it's a ton of work because he said a lot of very interesting things and finding them and organizing them. Eventually, you know, not to go on too long here on this one answer, but eventually I learned about the code of the West.

And are you aware of Daryl's code? No, tell us about it because again, that's the name of the book. So it's left something with you here. So the Code of the West is something that Darrell came across and believed in. And it's 10 rules and he posted it on the wall in Calgary, framed it. And the 10 rules are like what he believes it takes to be a big man or to be a good man, to be a winner, to be, you know, to live a positive life. And they're exactly what you think they are.

You know, it's do what you say you're going to do. You know, like it's very basic ideas. But then I use the code to organize Daryl's stories and his beliefs and whatever. So within each number, there's a lot of his beliefs that can be slotted under, you know, those sort of things. So I ended up using that as the guideline. And for Daryl, it's less of a tell all because Daryl wasn't going to come out there and rip a bunch of of people you know he didn't want to do that but it's more of a i kind of think of it like the stoic books that got so popular right now you know instead of reading you know whatever famous greek

philosopher it's darrell in much more direct language telling you the same concepts right like sure it's it's it's this this life if you follow this this stuff is not that complicated do on to others sort of stuff yeah you know but it's i think a lot of us overcomplicated and we think people laugh at darrell because they think he's simple because he doesn't overcomplicate it darrell's smart as hell he just is smart enough to not overcomplicate life yeah i think that's you know flames fans well aware of that it's like i could run my mouth for three and a half minutes of garbage i can give you the two-word answer and it might not be you know the way people want to present it but it's accurate and i'm being honest like that that's kind of

the beauty of his press of his press conferences you never really had to read between the lines it was clear the message he was getting across one of his things and it's not in the code but is truth hurts truth helps so you know it's just deliver it right up front take the medicine it's like you know when you pour something on an open wound and it stings for a second to disinfect it he'd rather just it hurts but it helps talk you know because of that 04 team in the run they went on and that that's sort of where probably the peak of darrell's in Calgary was. I mean, he tried his hand to GM, which was not nearly his strength when you compared it to his ability to coach. And obviously, that's not a hot take. He went on to win Cups as a coach later in

LA and never returned to a GM chair. But all the players that we see around, and there's a bunch of them. Like, I work with RET five days. We see your gear around town. You know, like Commodore is in town a bunch. He loves Rett. He does love Rett. And most people that have shared a locker room with Rett do love rep but they all said like he's going to tell you exactly where you stand and you might not like it but he ain't bullshit yeah no no and you know what one of the things that fascinated me getting to know darrell is that he loves the people stuff like he actually cares about the relationships like you know he talks a little bit about you know meet mike richards on the pier in l.a so people wouldn't see them having sort of the harder conversations about what mike was going through at that time and

you know people coming up to the to the ranch you know when when they just need to talk to someone staying over with them and you know trying to i think he thinks that one of his maybe weaknesses was worrying carrying so much about the people and the relationships and stuff but you know while trying to do the right thing for the team but yeah he talks a lot about when he took over in calgary the player the roster they had didn't speak to the people of alberian to the people of Calgary. He said they wanted to go get Western guys. He said, we wanted to go out and get Rhett.

And, you know, a bunch of these guys, you go down the list of guys he added in his first year there, and it's a bunch of men. And, you know, he felt that they had skill and they just needed that element. And, you know, obviously, you look at the success they had. Those teams were entertaining and very good. Yeah, it was an incredible blue-collar group

with a superstar Annette and a superstar sniper. and the rest of the guys just worked their absolute tails off and they loved each other. Like that is the one thing about that group. Like God, the stories are unreal. Like they just absolutely spent all their extra moments with each other. Well, and he says,

you know, one of his things is get them coaching themselves, which is basically just, if you have so thoroughly made it clear what your expectations are and what the team is doing, then they don't need you anymore. You know, like they can,

it's funny. There's a story that goes around that like the Kingslock, Darrell out in like a cup final or something like that. And Darrell loves that. He's like, you know, they know what to do. We had 10 guys who could have been captain on any other team on that LA team. And he felt that in Calgary too, where it's just they were professionals enough that they could coach themselves.

And that's when he knows he says, as he puts it, you can just go hands off. You give the room back to them. He said he took the room, tried to like change the culture. And then you give the room back to the guys and kind of let them bring. at home for you. How did you sit down and share anecdotes? I mean, you mentioned you went to the ranch with your son. I feel like that's where you're going to get the best to Daryl. Did you have an extended amount of time there? Do you follow up with phone calls later? Because I feel like the best answers you're going to get are probably on the ranch, knowing Daryl did. Yeah, I went back to the

ranch because of that. So we did, you know, like I talked to him on the phone maybe every couple weeks and try to, you know, as I was writing the book, I'd have 10 new questions about the same story. I didn't realize, you know, it's just stupid to say, but like the amount of detail you need to tell us someone else's story. It's like, okay, wait, was that a Tuesday? Was that in that arena? Was that, you know, like you just don't, so I would have to make a list of questions to follow up. And eventually I realized that the service sucks in Vikings, so the phone calls are hard. I just needed to go back to Viking. So I went back to Viking and sat down with them again. he really got more comfortable with me as we went along.

And, you know, we were able to really get into it. And the most important thing to me was what's important to Daryl and who's the man Daryl and to make that come through? That's the only thing I wanted to come through. And I don't know that it worked. You know, finish off. Look, you didn't know how your first book was going to go. And, you know, we talked about all the positive it's caused, you know, never mind that it was

wildly successful book. So I'm not worried about you're not capturing who Daryl is. He's going to read the audiobook, I think. We're in the works of the day done, but if Daryl reads the audio book, it'll be amazing. Oh, my God. That's next level. That's incredible.

If he could do that, that would be absolutely stunning. We're all excited about it. October 13th is the date. Can you pre-order now? And do you have a spot that's a better spot to send people to or just wherever they like their books? Yeah, it's going to be everywhere.

If you go ahead on Indigo or Amazon or a Penguin website and search code of the West, it's going to come up. It's on my Twitter page as well in my bio. Yeah, very good. Tell us about working with Kipper. You've got a hell of a show. You know, it's an incredibly white-hot market with interest and apparently more drama than Melrose Place with this incredibly skilled group for 10 years, the Babcock saga. you know, the Marner departure, the playoff failures, these guys will never win into this flop of a season after Marner's departure,

only to be given number one by basis of lottery balls and get McKenna. I mean, I don't know that you can script things this rollercoastery for what a franchise could go through in the biggest market for hockey. It's got to be a very brief time before we came on air. But like it's probably better from a content perspective than if they were just good, right? Yes. Like sports talk in Florida. I got both the Panthers has got to be incredibly boring.

Yeah, we got some more guys. We're good again. We're favored. Yeah, no, I know. They win. We'll see you at the elbow room. It's been good in that way. Kip is someone I developed just a tremendous respect for.

Like, he is so good at this. And people, it's kind of like Daryl, where people think that he's just like spouting off. And, you know, whatever he says, whatever he thinks. He works really hard. been cool to see he grinds on the phone man like right up until our show starts he's hey what do you hear about this what's going on with that um and then at the same time he i he is very content with providing an argument that i can lash out at without taking it personally he knows we're in the entertainment business he does not get hurt feelings like as long as i say the

argument's dumb not you're dumb it's okay and so i am a very very sensitive person and I struggled in the beginning of being like when he would like raise his voice with me. I just kind of be like, well, you know, and kind of shrink a little bit. But I've learned and, you know, that's from him telling me expressly, he wants me to come back at him. And he wants us to lean into this. And the mics will come off or the, you know, we'll go to break after our most heated exchanges. And he'll be like, yes, that's it. Like he loves it. He's so, you know, for me, it's been a lesson in media. And this guy did 20 years on hockey night in Canada. He's been at Sportsnet for another five since. You know, he had a couple years in the middle, but you don't have that kind of

longevity if you're just a blowheart. And I see people who see Skip Bayless and who, by the way, can't stand him. But, you know, see him and see Stephen A. And they see Kip and they see these guys. And they think the trick is to just be controversial, just to be contrarian. And I can't speak for the American guys, but I can tell you that Kip isn't contrarian just to be contrarian. He'll have a legitimate point that he believes for us to go off. And I have learned a lot about the business from working with him. Our show, one of the primary ingredients, people ask me about it because it's like three very, very different humans, but it really is friction is important.

Yeah. No one wants to tune into three dudes singing kumbaya together. Well, that's, you know, I often think like, yeah, I could definitely do a show with someone who I get along with better. I could and Kip could too, you know, but like I don't, there's not a chance it would be better if we're both like, well, we both looked at the numbers and every, well, all the numbers. It's like, you know, we hope that when someone comes out of one of our segments, they've heard their argument, whether it's for me or him. Right. Yeah. And I love your ad of Sam McKee. I think he was behind the scenes as a producer for a while now, a real big on-air component to the show. He's just great energy. Love. Yeah. Like there's an element he brings that really. makes it's like the third leg of the stool now you're like we thought the show was great but now it's

even better right totally you know the biggest thing is like kip has his players angle that he likes to take and i like to be more thoughtful and sometimes neither of us because of the way we think will present that fan angle right and and that's what people are talking about we're talking to the fans so sometimes you'd have to like almost grab some straw man like people out there are saying you know this and then kip and i would have to refute that well sam says it. And he's right in the thick of it. And what's so funny is like he's the most accessible, I think, or Lee fans see him as most accessible of the three of us. So they reach out to him directly. He gets a lot of DMs. He really has the temperature of the Lee fan base, which for us

to then present on our show allows Kip and I to then do our thing. It's perfect, you know, mix for us. Um, John Chiker is taken all. I loved the interaction with Steve Simmons, noted hot dog vendor enthusiast, and apparently knows what a good hire and good hire isn't. To give him credit, he's also kind of like, the whole Kipper thing is like, you're good at doing what you do, which is good to sell papers, right? He's very good at that. But what have you made of a guy that I think definitely had a lot of baggage,

follow him from Arizona, an incredibly dysfunctional organization, but in a spot where he was probably too young and not ready. Yeah. Although I do think he is wicked smart and couldn't have gone through that without learning some lessons along more. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's,

it's funny how much we want people to get a second chance. And this guy had all those learning lessons and all of a sudden, ever just beating him down before seeing what he would do. But I think the one thing I liked about his time in Arizona is that he was active. You know, you need to be creative and you need to be proactive. in this era of being a general manager, you know,

you guys had Brad Tree Living for years in Calgary. You know, I think he's a great guy and a smart hockey guy, but he was not proactive. And I think that that's something that really hurt the Leafs at times. So Chico seems to be that. He seems to be looking at different avenues

and ways of doing things. And the biggest thing that everyone was talking about is that it didn't work here. It wasn't working. It wasn't going the right direction. This guy has some new ideas. He's brought in new people. and it's the old, I've used this analogy, a whole bunch,

but if you get a bunch of scrabble letters that suck, sometimes you've got to dump them all in the bag and grab seven new letters and just see if it turns out better than next time. Yeah, honestly, like what you said, nailed it. Like, he has definitely overhauled the roster. And I think there was some clear deficiencies on the club. Like, that was a dysfunctional blue line that also had a lot of injuries. It's been overhauled.

And you don't know what you're going to get health-wise from Chris Tanna, but there's reason to believe that that's a much better blue line now. if you you certainly would think that the truth of what anthony stole ours is is somewhere between two years ago and last year where he wasn't good and again injuries what's left with bob is fascinating how does the first one roll pick gavin mcana fit in two years left on matthews like man it's it's a real nice pile of clay to work with every day what's funny you know is like it is a nice you know i think you guys are in such cool spot in calgary like where it's at the vibes are positive you're hopeful about the new kids right there's all this sort of like positive energy that comes with Calgary right now. But you're right that we have an advantage right now because it's just a little toxic. Yeah, totally. And that's an advantage in sports stock radio. Yeah, we all know Connie well, and I think we all think he's doing a good job.

But the easiest part is the tear down. This is what you're going to be judged by. Anyone can hold an auction at the deadline. Yeah. I see that all the time. It's like, yeah, tear it down. This GM's doing an awesome job. It's like, okay, well, now what?

I will say I looked at Utah's roster the other day. It's pretty good. Yeah, well, they're bad for a long time. They better be good by now. Hey, you've got to run. You've got to pick up kids from camp. We really enjoyed the chat. We will hopefully have Daryl with, I think, Boomer and maybe even

later this summer. We're excited about the book, October 13th, the Code of the West, yourself and Darrell Sutter. Thanks for sharing time with us. We are pumped to see it on shelves and then get it into our pause in the fall. Well, hey, thanks for supporting the book and myself, man, means a lot. Appreciate it. All right.

Thanks, Justin. We'll see you later. Thanks, pal.