Barron's Streetwise - Bank Stocks, Anyone?

Episode Date: March 17, 2023

Also, meet the woman who’s launching a bank. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, Spotify, this is Javi. My biggest passion is music, and it's not just sounds and instruments. It's more than that to me. It's a world full of harmonies with chillers. From streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. I actually think the stock prices, it's a bit of a circular loop, right? And when people see the stock prices go down, they get concerned about their deposits. Hello and welcome to the Barron Streetwise podcast.

I'm Jack Howe, and the voice you just heard, that's David Conrad. He's a bank analyst at KBW, which is part of Stiefel. Ahead, we'll talk about the current bank crisis, whether depositors are safe, and whether daring investors should consider bank shares and which ones. We'll also hear from a woman who's doing something particularly unusual now. She's starting a bank. Listening in is our audio producer, Jackson. Hi, Jackson. Hi, Jack.

Where do you want to start, Jackson? How about what the heck happened and is my money safe at the bank? Okay, I'll take those in order. SBB Financial became this past week the second biggest bank failure in U.S. history, and it was followed very quickly by the third company called Signature Bank. SVB was not a new operation. They had done business for about four decades, and they catered to venture capitalists and tech entrepreneurs. And so we had a long period of near zero interest rates. Everything in tech land boomed. There were loads of IPOs. People there came into a lot of money and SVB was

marketed as their bank and they deposited money with SVB and the bank took in way more money than it could prudently use. By use, I mean lend. That's what banks do with the money they take in the deposits. But you don't want to lend too much too quickly. How is too much money a problem for a bank? Well, you want to, you basically, I hate to say it this way, but one of the basic rules in banking is try to lend money to people who don't super duper need it, right? People who are excellent credits, people who would be fine even without you, right? Because then you're not taking on a lot of risk. Now, if you're trying to grow your loan book too aggressively, you begin dipping down in credit quality and lending money to people who really need the money and who might not be great

credit risk. So if you're lending prudently, you're going slow. And if you come into a pile of money, you can't put that to work in loans in a prudent way quickly. So what you do instead is you buy basically other people's loans, loans that are already trading. Then we call those bonds. You buy bonds with the money. And if you want to keep it safe, you buy very safe bonds. And that's what SBB did. It bought treasuries and mortgage-backed securities, right? It did not get into trouble by buying garbage or making loans that went bad. It got into trouble by going too long on its bonds and not hedging. I'll explain that.

We had roaring inflation and the Federal Reserve rapidly raised interest rates to try to deal with inflation. And as I'm sure we've talked about it sometime in the past in this podcast, when interest rates rise, the value of bonds tends to fall that's no big deal if you own bonds that are safe and you plan to hold them to maturity you'll still get the maturity value no matter what happens to the trading price in between but if you have to sell your bonds before maturity you could take a loss and that's what happened to SVB because the its customer base these tech customers you know they got hit pretty hard by this

rise in interest rates that really impaired growth stocks and hurt the IPO market. And a lot of sources of funding there dried up. Some of these companies needed money to cover their payrolls and things like that. And SVB was just not bringing in enough income from its base of bonds in order to cover the deposit money that its customers were looking for. So what it did was it sold some bonds that it was planning to hold to maturity. And that when it announced that to its depositors, that was widely read as a sign of weakness. was widely read as a sign of weakness. And the company was already a little bit under suspicion for weakness because the stock price had been cratering since last fall.

So word went out quickly among its customers. And after that announcement about the bond sale, the bank basically folded in a little more than a day. And so what happened after, I heard there were other banks having problems as well. Well, that triggered weakness at Signature Bank and that one folded too. And then regulators stepped in quickly. One of the issues, I mean, there were a bunch of issues here, but at Silicon Valley Bank, there were a lot of depositors who had more than the FDIC maximum.

You know that $250,000 of insurance that they give you at banks? For most bank customers, that $250,000 maximum is not an issue. But there are some companies that use banks for payroll purposes, and they can have a lot more money than that there. And so that wasn't covered by the insurance. Regulators stepped in quickly to cover all those deposits, no matter whether they went over the limit or not at these two banks. One reason is they want these companies, I guess, to be able to make their

payroll. But the much larger issue is that you don't want people to see that there are bank customers that are not getting all of their account money back because that can trigger an industry-wide panic. In hindsight, there are plenty of lessons you can take from SVB. It adds risk when your deposit base kind of all looks and acts the same. If they're all tech-focused people who are on Twitter sharing information about risk, if they're all doing digital banking, if they can all move money in a hurry, all of those things add to your risk. Also, there is a link between stock prices and depositor confidence. And not just the one you

think where if depositors lose confidence, the stock price falls. The opposite can be true too. For people out there who say, where were the early warning signs about this in this age of heightened bank regulations? Well, the stock market was definitely one because SVB shares had been falling for a long time. But Twitter was another. In February, there was the, as one example, there was an author of a newsletter called The Diff. And he wrote on Twitter that SVB was technically insolvent, as he put it. But he also said, I don't expect a bank run. One of the things he pointed out was the remaining stock market value of the company was still

fairly high. And that provides a cushion. If a bank falls on hard times, it can sell shares to the public and raise money if it has to. And so depositors can take that as a sign of strength. But of course, what happened was the stock market value continued evaporating and SVB did not have that option open to it. And that helped reduce depositor confidence. So when people are trying to figure out, are these bank runs done? Well, that kind of depends on what we all do next. If depositors

are confident, then maybe they are done. But depositor confidence can also depend on what we do next as stock investors. Do these shares find support at any time or do they just continue to plunge? Those plunging stock prices do not make anyone feel more comfortable about banks. So now is my money safe? Certainly your deposits are safe up to the $250,000 max per account and depositor from the FDIC. And I think we can make sort of educated guess by the actions of regulators and say, they seem keen to protect customers at banks even above those maximums if the need for that arises. We can't say that for sure, but that's what it looks like.

And I suspect that you will see some change to those insurance limits. Maybe they'll be lifted altogether. Maybe there will be higher maximums for payroll accounts. There are also other actions that regulators have taken, by the way, for banks that have these bonds where the value of them has been hit by rising rates. They're allowing these banks to put up the full maturity value of those bonds as collateral to get their hands on money. So there are other things happening behind the scenes.

Depositor money is safe. But I also think that, and we talked about this a few weeks ago, when interest rates were near zero, banks had an edge in paying their customers more money because money markets have to hold these short-term securities that we're paying next to nothing. Banks can make up a rate to be competitive. At a time when interest rates were near zero, they were able to say, we'll pay you 1%. And it made sense to shop around for banks that were paying the highest rates on what are called money market accounts. Those are not money market funds.

A money market account is an insured bank account. That situation is now reversed. The most competitive rates out there are money market funds, which are taking that money and putting it into short-term, very safe instruments. We talked about a short while ago about how you could find ones of those that were paying over 4%. And if you have money sitting in the bank that's doing worse than that, it might be time to move money to money market funds. And that's what's been happening. So there's no reason to panic about your bank. Your deposits remain insured. But if you're not earning what you should be on a bank deposit and you're not going to use the money anytime soon, I would consider looking at a money market fund. It's

not identical to banks in the safety. It's not an FDI-sured investment. But money market funds are managed with the goal of maintaining a constant share price. They are still safe on the spectrum of things. And you can get sometimes a few points of extra yield. Is that a risk? We saw how quickly people were able to move their money from Silicon Valley Bank to maybe other banks or money market funds. In this age of mobile banking, is that a risk that there's higher interest rates elsewhere and people can all come to that realization at the same time? elsewhere and people can kind of all come to that realization at the same time. I don't think there's a risk that bank depositors all across the country overnight will move their money out of their bank accounts and into money market funds. But I do think that banks could

find it more difficult to come by deposits in the quarters ahead. UBS this past week initiated coverage on mid-cap banks and it had a few picks, but it wasn't so bullish on the group as a whole. And two of the things that pointed out was it said that it thought that deposit growth would be weaker than Wall Street is predicting going forward. It also thought that credit losses on loans could be higher because they anticipate a recession next year. So the numbers were not dramatically different from Wall Street's predictions on those things, but it just thinks that overall the profitability of the group isn't going to be as good as Wall Street thinks.

If you're a stock investor, it's natural to wonder, hey, is this a moment when I should be brave when others are fearful? Should I step in here and try to buy low at this moment of shaken confidence? And I don't really know. I'm not feeling that. I mean, the valuations are low. In that UBS report on mid-cap banks that I mentioned, the title of the report was No Man's Land, which does not inspire confidence. And in that report, they have coverage of 19 mid-cap banks and they start five of them at buy. And they point out that's a 26% favorable rate, but at other firms, the favorable rate is 60%. In other words, they're almost bragging about the fact that they're more bearish than others on banks, which I guess is a point to boast about now, sort of. But they do have some banks they're

bullish on. Their highest conviction buys, there are three of them. They are Western Alliance Bank Corp., New York Community Bank Corp., and Webster Financial. Their highest conviction sells were Texas Capital Bank shares and Cullen Frost Bankers, and also First Citizen Bank shares. Oh, and by the way, what did investors do when they were panicked about bank stocks? They piled into treasuries. What did that do to their price of treasuries? The prices rose.

What did that mean for the balance sheet at banks? It actually improved them because if your main problem at a bank is that you bought these bonds when rates were lower, now rates are rising, the value of your bonds is falling. And if suddenly bank depositors are pouring money into treasuries and now the value of your treasuries is rising, your problems are lessening on their own, which helped. On the other hand, I look at something called the KBW NASDAQ Bank Index, which is a proxy for bank stocks in general. And investors haven't made money there in about a quarter century. So I mean, we can point to some individual banks that are better than others, but I'm left wondering what's the point of going out on a limb and trying to pick the right one. But, you know, I'm open to other opinions on the matter, and I reached out for some

this past week. Let's start with David Conrad. He's a bank analyst at KBW, the firm for which that bank index is named. So tell me where things stand now. I mean, are we still in panic mode? I mean, I saw some of the share price reactions yesterday and it makes me wonder, have the policymakers solved this crisis or are we still in crisis? Part of the challenge is this is a liquidity event, right? Like I lived through 08, 09, and that was an asset quality issue. And we kind of see that coming. Liquidity is a different thing, which has a lot to do with confidence. And so I actually think the stock prices,

it's a bit of a circular loop, right? And when people see the stock prices go down, they get concerned about their deposits. It's interesting. You said that the stock prices, it's a bit of a circular loop, right? And when people see the stock prices go down, they get concerned about their deposits. It's interesting you said that the stock price going down, there's no direct effect on the liquidity of the company, assuming the company's not thinking about issuing shares to raise money or something like that. But that can be the thing that triggers the loss of confidence. It causes people to take the money out, which can cause real world effects. I've got it. That being the case, are there companies that you're seeing under your coverage where you're like, this is certainly a buying opportunity in this stock. This is certainly a company that's on firm footing.

I mean, what do you see when you look across the landscape of your coverage? So I cover the bigger names, the super regionals and the universals. And, you know, this is a crisis, if you will, that isn't born out of the universal banks. And so hopefully that takes a little bit of pressure from Washington off of the whole sector. We were starting to see stress in the super regionals, right? And so, you know, Chris McGrady, my colleague covers, you know, covered Silicon Valley and covers First Republic and some of those names that have been extremely more volatile. But, you know, we did see, you know, Key Corp was maybe the first super regional that was down 30% yesterday, which kind of like, wait, is this starting to creep into more bigger,

more diversified financials? When you look at the selling and the bank names, do you see a pattern that makes sense to you? In other words, the names that are sold off the most, do you say, okay, I see what investors are thinking there and that makes sense. What does it look like to you? There's two parts to that thesis. One, What does it look like to you? There's two parts to that thesis. One, extended duration on the bond portfolio. So they had a position with this dramatic rise in interest rates.

If you mark to market their bond book, that really took a hit to capital. So that's kind of phase one that people are looking at. And then phase two is the makeup of the deposits. And so, for instance, Silicon Valley had a concentrated, high-balance deposit base to the venture capital world. That's different from saying I've got consumer deposits throughout the Midwest, right? It's a whole different phenomenon. It seems now like the de facto position is that bank deposits are going to be covered. Like the FDIC insurance limit, you get the feeling that that's not so much a limit anymore because regulators have kind of signaled that if a bank gets into trouble, we'll cover depositors. Is that the right thing to do now?

Do you think that's going to become some kind of permanent policy down the road? Yeah, I mean, first of all, you know, the deposit insurance is $250,000 below that is insured, which, you know, I think one that's not really necessarily keeping up with the growth of the economy and inflation and things like that. But two, I think it was kept in mind for the, you know, the greater U.S. retail consumer that would cover a lot of deposits. I think what we have to reconsider is the small business deposits that are much, much greater than that. Is banking still a good business? I mean, when I see these banks wipe out their investor profits for decades, it makes me wonder. I know there's something unique about the structure of interest rates lately and how quickly that's changed and how challenging that's been for banks. But, you know, this age of people being able to whip money around digitally very quickly,

spread messages on Twitter very quickly. Is there anything that has structurally changed that has just made this business more difficult or less attractive? Or is this a moment in time that will pass? I think it makes it more challenging. But again, I think, you know, we also can't excuse some of the banks too, right? Like, you know, it was all born out of a SL liability mismatch with some of these names. And so that's kind of phase one. But I think, you know, I think the other story here is, you know, niche banking becomes a little bit more risky, right? Which is counterintuitive, right? Usually you want to say, what's my competitive advantage? And I'm going to focus on that. And that's largely what some of these banks did. But that strategy in a world of volatility is really, you know, the risk management side is what's challenging. But listen, I mean, you know, the other side of it is look at JP Morgan that has a lot more regulations on it than than the regional banks do. You know, maybe the seventh largest bank in the country equivalent in cash at the Fed.

And they're still putting up 16, 17 percent ROTCE. So, you know, I don't think we want to take it, you know, for the banking industry as a whole. But, you know, certain models in volatility are going to be a lot more stressed. Last question, a two parter. First of all, if I said to you, David, I'm I'm I'm thinking about making a contrarian move here. I believe in buying when other people are panicked about something. I want to buy some shares of banks. Would you talk me out of it or would you say, yep, that's a good idea? Like in general, is it way too soon to think about

something like that? I think you can do that. I would go more up market cap is probably the better risk reward. U.S. Bank is a name that was beaten up over the first two days of this crisis and has strong fee income, is generating capital, and a broad, diversified funding base. So I think you can kind of look to names like that early on in this phase. Any other specific names you like? The names that have held up remarkably well actually are the brokers. So Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs have actually done really well, and I expect that to continue. Thank you, David.

I also spoke this past week with Brad Newman, who is the director of market strategy at Alger, which is a money manager. We already had a call scheduled, and originally we were going to talk about growth stock investing. That's Brad's area of focus. And the stocks he likes include CrowdStrike Holdings, which is a cybersecurity company, and Intuitive Surgical. They do medical robots. And there's a company called Impinge, with a J on the end, that makes these radio frequency tags for merchandise. But given the events of this past week, I wanted to ask Brad about his thoughts on banks.

In general, at Alger, we don't invest much in banks. Most of our strategies have between zero and 3%, let's say, invested in banks. And to the extent that we do invest in banks, it's generally on the larger side of banks, which we think are gaining share from the regional banks, which of course, I think is now consensus after what happened over the past week. We've always thought that the reason why larger banks would gain share versus small banks was primarily because of how important technology was becoming in the banking industry. In other words, decades ago, we used to bank with a particular bank because maybe it was close to you in terms of proximity to your house, or you knew the banker, some kind of personal relationship. Today, young people are banking with their phones, and it depends on how good the bank's applications are.

So large banks can invest a lot more in R&D than regional banks. So we thought they would take share. Of course, these depositor issues and asset side of the balance sheet issues that we saw at Silicon Valley Bank are also mitigated by the diversity of large banks. So for many reasons, I think we like large banks better than small banks. So there's not a great place for regional banks, we think, in portfolios. Thank you, Brad. Who would want to launch a new bank under these market conditions? We'll meet someone. That's next after the break. repeatedly get back. CBC News brings the story to you live. Hundreds of wildfires are burning.

Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canada. This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most. Stay in the know. Download the free CBC News app or visit cbcnews.ca welcome back jackson when is the last time you walked into a bank oh man okay let me let me start let me start here jackson did you know that banks have insides

well i actually do i there was a local wells fargo i think right next to where i used to practice football like peewee football in eighth grade and practice wouldn't start until five o'clock um but it was close to where I went to middle school. There's a lollipop coming, right? So I'd go into the bank. I asked them if I could study there because no one was ever there, and they had all these tables. And I'd come in, get the lollipop, and do some world history homework. And always good air conditioning at banks, right?

Great air conditioning. Yeah. And then head out to the gridiron. That's nice. I'm not sure Wells Fargo is going to turn that into a Super Bowl commercial, but the story's out there if they're interested. So I heard from a lot of people this past week about how what's happening now is going to favor big banks that investors out there who were who were nervous about what's happening in their bank

might be tempted to add more money to one of the giants um and it got me thinking i know that the number of banks has been declining over the years, number of community banks has been declining. So it got me thinking about the future of that part of the economy. I'm reading a line here. Despite their declining market share, community banks remain crucial providers of credit and financial services in the United States. That's from a report a couple of years ago from the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City. There's a group called the Independent Community Bankers of America, and they put out a report

this past week titled Silicon Valley Bank and the nation's largest banks are not community banks. The point there is that if you're tempted to think of SVB as some little neighborhood operation, don't. They say that it had $213 billion in assets and was, at the time of its closure, the 16th largest bank in the country, not a small bank. I wanted to speak to ICBA about the future for community banks, so I reached out to its CEO, Rebecca Romero Rainey.

You mentioned that Silicon Valley Bank is not a community bank, but that's a different experience that doesn't reflect the banks that you represent. Tell me a little more about that. Absolutely. So the banks that I represent are community banks. The distinction here is Silicon Valley Bank was ranked the 16th largest bank in the country and had a very unique balance sheet in terms of a concentration in what one would consider highly volatile assets, had experienced incredible growth over the course of the last five years, and a business model that just is very different from what you would call an average traditional community bank. A traditional bank is one typically that is focused on relationship-based lending and over time looking at a long-term organic growth strategy

and a way to ensure long-term stability and resiliency for their customers. Where do the community banks come in? What do they do? What is the need that they fill that's not filled by some of these other companies? I will tell you, undoubtedly, community banks are core to the heartbeat of this nation's economy. Community banks make nearly 60% of all small business loans. Community banks make 80% of all agricultural loans. And so as we think about this nation's economy and we think about, undoubtedly, there's need for banks of all sizes to serve all needs. But community banks play an integral role. And as we think about entrepreneurialism,

as we think about new business, as we think about startups, that is where community banks are vital to what we do. Thank you, Rebecca. Jackson, I'm looking at a report online. It's from the FDIC. It's titled Summary of New Deposit Insurance Application Activities. I know you're an avid reader of the report. How many new applications would you guess there are this year? In other words, how many individuals out there do you think are going to the FDIC and saying, we want to start a bank and we'd like to apply for coverage? All right. So there's 50 states. Yes. How many per state? I don't know. Maybe like 45. Okay. We'll call it 50. Hold on. Where's my calculator watch? Go ahead. This is getting pretty big. 2,500.

We're talking about applications this year. For a bank. Yeah. To start a new bank. Yeah. Do you think there are 2,500 people out there looking to start a bank right now it's a big country 300 million people well you went over um the the actual number is two there are two this year all right come on you were right there though i feel bad my march madness brackets not looking good oh lord well look i these two new banks right or pending banks i wanted to find out

what's the thought process for someone who's looking to get into banking now? What's the appeal? And so I reached out to the most recent application on the list. It's a bank called Fortuna Bank. And so I reached out to the chairwoman and CEO of this proposed bank in Columbus, Ohio. They are Lisa Berger and Ilaria Rollins. Why are you starting a bank? What's going on? The banking world is going crazy. I mean, you started this process before you knew that about the banking world, but there was already not that large of a number of people out there starting banks. So tell me your original thought process and plans for this bank. And then maybe I'll ask you about this latest upheaval. So what's the plan for the bank? I'm an attorney by training. I pretty quickly decided that's not what I wanted to do.

Bought a business, grew the business, sold the business, and then kind of wondered what I was going to do next. I realized that I'm definitely entrepreneurial in nature, but at the time I sold my prior business, I realized I want to do something else. I want to entrepreneurial in nature, but at the time I sold my prior business, I realized like I want to do something else. I want to start another business, but I also want to help people. We're only on this earth for a short time. And if I can make a difference, I'd like to. My business partner in the business that I sold had started, had been involved in starting a couple of banks. And I approached him to say, hey, I have this idea. You know how to start banks. I'd like to help women. What do you think about starting a women-owned

bank? He liked the idea. We both knew and had worked with Ilaria. Ilaria is a lifetime banker. She's been in the banking business for all of her professional life. She's phenomenal at it. She had a pretty big job at a national bank. And we approached her to see if she wanted to do it with us. Is it your belief that you can start a community bank and run it for a profit? 100 percent. Absolutely. Otherwise, I wouldn't be doing it, right?

I mean, that's sort of ground zero, basic principle number one. There's money to be made. Columbus is weirdly in a great place right now. I don't know. If you don't live here, you probably don't know, but they just announced a new Intel development here, which will, when finished, be the largest chip manufacturing plant in the world, right?

So they're basically committed to spending $100 billion, 20 miles from where our bank is going to be located. At the same time, they just broke ground on a new Honda battery plant about 20 miles the other direction. And so I think that we're well poised, maybe more so than some other cities, to be adding another community bank to the mix. Elaria, tell me about your banking experience so far.

Where have you worked and what have you done? Sure. So really, as Lisa mentioned, a career banker. I have really spent a lot of time in the retail space specifically and just kind of backing up two employers. I had the opportunity to help start a DeNovo in the Columbus, Ohio area back in 2006. So interesting time for sure, because it was just before the financial crisis. But we said, oftentimes then the larger banks were our clients, because we were able to take on some of those opportunities there. So was part of a DeNovo bank here in Columbus from 2006 until

about 2014. Had the opportunity then to stay on with the acquiring bank. We were bought by First Financial, which is a bank that's headquartered out of Cincinnati and had the opportunity with First Financial to lead the retail line of business, which was about 140 banking centers, 700 employees. So had some of that leadership expertise built in there. And then kind of likewise, wanted to, the most fun I've ever had in banking was the time I spent with the DeNovo Bank. It really feels like you become a part of the community.

Your clients love being a part of something special. And so was excited to join forces and to help get started. Tell me now about the past week, right? Everyone's talking about banks. People I'm speaking with on Wall Street, they say, well, some of the big banks, the biggest banks might be receiving money right now from people who are with these,

maybe some of the regional players or smaller players who are feeling nervous. Is there any part of what's going on out there in banking that has caused the two of you to say, hey, wait a second, let's take this over now. This is a moment of chaos in banking. Are we sure about this? Or is there anything about what's happening now that you look at and that you say presents an opportunity or does it not matter? I think business models tend to be vastly different.

I think expectations of a community bank are different than that of a larger institution. I think community bank is here to ultimately support the community. We have very diverse, we would have a very diverse customer base because we have small businesses not necessarily focused on one specific sector. We have consumers also not necessarily focused on one specific sector. And I think that's very similar to many smaller community banks. So I think when you talk about kind of community or main street banking, it's an opportunity for those banks and banks like ours potentially, as we're still an organization, to shine and to be there for community members. What happens oftentimes when there's an economic downturn is sometimes a lot of the larger banks will start to become very strict on what niches they are in, and they'll start to cap those niches, and they'll start to talk to their commercial lenders and start to exit particular clients that may be very strong,

and start to exit particular clients that may be very strong, always on time paying clients. And so it opens an opportunity for banks like a community bank to be able to step in and support members of the community and the loan holders and the businesses that might need assistance where a bank, a larger bank may see that as a vulnerability. You're not looking to specialize in hot crypto money coming from. Well, I mean, I was going to say to the extent they keep talking about this, this SVB bank at the community bank, I think it's, it's sort of a false characterization, or maybe it's just, it's a, it's just different. It's different in the Midwest. I mean, you know, the failure of that bank was, was the result of a loss of depositor confidence. In our case, our depositors equal our customers, equal our investors. I mean, it's all sort of, the goal is to make all those people,

to make the Venn diagram overlap by a lot. And I just think that it's, that just presents a much less risky situation. less risky situation. I want to thank David, Brad, Rebecca, Lisa, and Ilaria, and thank all of you for listening. Jackson Cantrell is our producer. Subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you listen on Apple, please write us a review. If you want to find out about new stories, new podcast episodes, you can follow me on Twitter. It's at Jack Howe, H-O-U-G- review. If you want to find out about new stories, new podcast episodes, you can follow me on Twitter. It's at Jack Howe, H-O-U-G-H. See you next week.