Barron's Streetwise - Money–With Katie. Plus, the Median TV Viewer Is Suddenly 61

Episode Date: January 28, 2023

Jack talks with a popular personal finance blogger and a top show business analyst. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey Spotify, this is Javi. My biggest passion is music, and it's not just sounds and instruments, it's more than that to me. It's a world full of harmonies with chillers. From streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. I had a CD when I was like 7 or 8 called Acting with a Scottish Accent that I found at like the half-priced bookstore. Wait, wait, wait. I gotta to hear, I got to hear some. I got to hear this guy's accent. Oh no, what? Go ahead, go. Okay, I got this.

Yeah. Welcome to the Baron's Streetwise podcast. It's perfect. It's spot on. All across Scotland right now, listeners are I can hear the cheers. to find out that you're not actually one of their own. All right, let's go. The big flashy wedding, the pool in the backyard.

I mean, those are the types of things where we really seriously overestimate the amount of impact on our happiness they're going to have. I spend 50% of my life sitting at this desk or 30% of my life laying in bed. It probably makes sense to invest in a good mattress, no? Hello and welcome to the Barron Streetwise podcast. I'm Jack Howe and the voice you just heard, it's Katie. Not just Katie, of course. It's Katie Gaditassin. She's the host of a popular podcast called The Money with Katie Show. And we'll hear from her in a moment about money, what to do with it, and how to invest it. Plus, I'll share some shocking new statistics about television and who's still watching it.

And we'll hear from a Wall Street analyst about the outlook for show business stocks. Listening in is our not really Scottish audio producer, Jackson. Hi, Jackson. Hi, Jack. I'm stunned by this report I saw. I was reading about football and TV ratings. And the title of this report is NFL Carrying TV Viewership. That's been happening for a while.

TV viewership has been falling off. Live sports has been, you know, sort of a strong point. People are still tuning in for live sports. But I guess I didn't realize. I knew the television audience was getting older and smaller, but I didn't realize how this had accelerated recently. What would you guess is the median TV viewer age right now? Let's guess 58.

You're not far off. It's 61. 61 years old. I just turned 50 and I'm running out of things that I'm too young for. But apparently I'm a little too young to be a TV viewer at this point. I'm running out of things that I'm too young for, but apparently I'm a little too young to be a TV viewer at this point. I'm shocked by that, frankly. If you look at the age 55 and older cohort, that was, if you go 10 years ago, that made up 36% of the TV audience. These statistics are from UBS, citing Nielsen. So 55 and older was 36% of the TV audience.

That's 10 years ago. Now, 65%. It's gone from a third to two thirds. Two thirds of the TV audience is over 55, and the typical viewer is 61. I find that stunning. When is the last time you watched regular television? I think I watched Jeopardy at my mother-in-law's house like three months ago. That sounds like a TV occasion based on the statistics that I'm seeing here. Here's a

Jeopardy answer, I guess, for you. Declined 8.3% last year. That's the second worst annual decline ever, behind only the 14% drop the year before. What is cable subscriptions? What is TV viewership? I can't give that to you. I'm sorry. You lost everything.

Here's a little tidbit of a data point that I find interesting. Sports as a whole is doing well. Football is doing well. Ratings are fine. When you look at Thursday night football, that's down a lot. And it's obvious why it's down a lot because, I mean, first of all, Thursday night football is like, lot because I mean first of all Thursday night football is like is it fair to say that that's that's the NFL testing the limits of how many games it can add per week right everybody loves Sunday all day right everybody loves Monday night football and so they say well what if we had

another day let's do Thursday night football and I think the viewership is kind of lower for that and they figure okay there's the line that's how far we can go we're not going to take it any further than that thursday night football used to be on fox and it moved to amazon prime and it looks like the viewership is down 36 percent big decline because you're going from well-established television to you know streaming which is still newer and one particular service in Amazon Prime, which is not the streaming leader. So you're down 36% overall. But if you look at the demo, as they say, young people, ages 18 to 34,

the ratings are actually up 4% going from TV to Amazon Prime. That, to me, points to the future. Yes, you know, football is supporting TV viewership for now, but even there among young people, they'd rather watch it on streaming. How are the revenues? Do they get more per ad dollar per eyeball because they can do targeted ads or is that not? It's interesting. My sense is that the profit in streaming is terrible at the moment because everybody's spending too much to grow it. And the profit in traditional television is still quite good because even though it's falling off,

you don't really have to put a lot of money into trying to grow the audience. You can sort of, you know, milk that business for the cash you can take off of it. But I mean, this kind of reinforces when we've talked recently about streaming companies and how they are spending all this money, but now investor tastes have flipped. Investors don't want companies to burn cash anymore in pursuit of growth at any cost. Now they want companies to make money. And so now these streaming companies are having to cut their content budgets or raise their prices or add commercials and figure out ways to turn profitable in a hurry. This just kind of shows you the pressure they're under on the other side.

The ones that have traditional television audiences, those audiences are eroding. So they need to do something in a hurry. audiences, those audiences are eroding. So they need to do something in a hurry. And I wanted to learn more about how that plays out and how it affects investors who own these stocks. So I reached out to Peter Supino. He's an analyst who covers show business stocks, among other stocks for Wolf Research. Jackson, I want to hear some of that conversation, but as we've discussed ahead of time, your line coming up is you got it right now. Now I want to hear some of that conversation but as we've discussed ahead of time your line coming up is you got it right now now I want I want it to sound totally candid like you haven't been preparing for it just I want you to play it cool and casual are you ready for it all right hey Jackson let's hear part of that conversation you got it

I think it was totally organic. I love it. What's your sense of how legacy TV is doing? Is it moving at more or less at the speed that we expected? Or is it accelerating the decline of legacy TV? Where are we in this transition? Based on the conversations we have with people that sell broadband and most of the people who buy paid TV buy from a company that also sells broadband, about 25% of new subscribers to broadband.

So whether you go to a, you change homes or you get tired of your DSL provider, whatever the spur is, about a quarter of those signups take video. And that's down from 60% in 2019. And if you look at the math of subscriber declines, that lack of interest in buying is the problem. In the meantime, the pay TV operators tell us that the rate of churn or cancellation of existing pay TV subscribers has been pretty stable and it looks a lot like 2019. And so you can see how it works when people are faced with a decision point, changing their home, changing their broadband provider. They realize that they don't need this product, But the subscribers who remain are pretty inertial, and their tendency to cancel their

service isn't very different from three or four years ago. I think that's exactly what I did. I had cable. I thought, man, do I really need this? Probably not, but I'm too busy to bother changing. But then I moved. I changed homes. And when I got here, I set up with just broadband, the fiber optic broadband.

And I said, you know, I'll just do streaming and it's fine. But I got one of these, you know, like YouTube TV type deals, the virtual cable bundle. What do you hear from the media companies? Are those virtual bundles helping to make up for the losses in legacy TV or not enough? Or what do you think? Well, there are about 13 and a half million of them. That's our estimate for December 2022. We haven't yet seen all the reporting, but it won't be too far off of that number. And that number is up about a half a million from the year before.

So there's not much growth in aggregate, but those subs made the decision to buy that product much more recently and they're acting much more inertial than the pay TV subs. So flat virtual subscribers at 13 and a half million staying flat or rising by half a million doesn't get close to filling the gap. Is this future model of streaming ever going to match the profitability of cable TV where everyone's got the bundle with a thousand channels and they're sitting there for all the ads and they're paying six different ways? Is that as good as it is ever going to get? Or you think that these companies might get back to

that level of profitability in the future? Right now, it might be as good as it's going to get for the totality of people selling subscriptions and advertising into long form video because most households are buying pay TV still at the same time as they're buying a ton of streaming for prices that are higher than they used to. So you've got almost two thirds of the country buying some form of linear TV at the same time as the average household buys four, four and a half streaming services for which they actually pay. We're not talking free advertising supported. And so if you want to use a round number like $10 for the monthly cost of those four streaming services and Comcast's pay TV ARPU, which is over 100, you could see that many households are paying approaching $150 a month

for all their subscription video. And the industry is showing them advertising in many cases. And it's an absolutely huge market that's bigger than it was five years ago. So it's a bigger top line. What's happened with, I mean, everyone has been spending like mad to try to bring in the streaming subscribers. I get the sense from what companies are saying that that level of spending is maybe not super sustainable. Where are we in terms of the margins and what do you think is going to happen from here with content spending? We're still in a land grab. The problem is that the Hollywood incumbents were late to realize that they were going to have to change.

And so they are spending much more than they're getting in streaming in order to speculate on recreating something like their share of pay TV in streaming. And the best thing that they have going for them, and I don't want to sound dismissive because this is a real asset, is that they have a ton of valuable programming that they have committed to the linear pay TV ecosystem. And the challenge they face is how aggressively do they recommit that high value programming to streaming at risk of getting a lot less for it?

Because the reality is that consumers buy minutes of programming cheaper in streaming than they do in pay TV. And so you're knowingly trading dimes for dollars with the same or greater programming cost in order to recreate your legacy market share in streaming. It just seems like TV is too good. I don't mean like where it's too enjoyable, but it just seems like the companies are giving away too much and charging too little and something's going to have to change. They have to spend less on content.

They have to raise their prices. They have to roll out ads. And whatever the ad loads are initially, they need to get, you know, much. They need to get ad loads that resemble like where cable TV is now. I mean, but at the same time, what you can do in streaming that you couldn't do in cable is you can get this global scale. And so maybe that changes things. I mean, what do you think of that? Does TV have to become a worse deal in order for these companies to get back to where they need to be in terms of profitability? So yes, I agree that streaming is too good of a deal right now.

And the best evidence of that is just that streamers in aggregate seem to lose money. It's too early to make the call that programmers will reduce their investment in streaming to get profitable. I think the better bet is that pricing and ad loads go up over time to turn this into a better business. And the other important market cure is mergers. And so we think that there's a good chance that there'll be two significant media mergers over the next couple of years that reduce the number of premium competitors from eight or nine to five or six. You are bullish, if I'm not mistaken, on Netflix and Disney. Give me a couple of thoughts about why.

Why are those two the ones that you would, as an investor, that you'd be betting on now? In streaming, the consumer gets a choice. So you need to matter a lot to consumers to get them to A, sign up for your service, and B, come back and visit you a lot. And the less often a consumer visits, the harder it is to charge a lot of money for your service and hurdle your fixed costs. And so Disney and Netflix are leaders in both hours of viewing per month and also the value the consumer gets in terms of the dollars that they pay per hour of viewing per month.

And they have the additional benefit of having more global footprints. About the other, the sort of non-legacy media companies, Apple, Amazon, it sort of looked for a while like video for them was kind of a side hobby, like, hey, let's see if this goes anywhere. Are those companies that are going to put meaningful resources behind, you know, rivaling one of these big streaming companies, or does that just continue for them to be something to sell as an add-on for other services? Well, Apple has a reputation for paying higher prices for things that it wants than anybody else in the industry. Amazon has, I think, positioned itself as a supermarket for programming. And by that, I mean a huge breadth of content, but perhaps

not the richness that some other streaming services achieve. Amazon has a lot of third-party product, and they both look very, very serious. Amazon is cutting costs right now, and we saw some news recently that they increased the price of Amazon Music. And it stands to reason that they might apply a bit greater focus on cash flow to the video business as well in 2023, given what's happening at Amazon and more broadly in large cap tech. But having said that, it's clear that they want to be one of the last entities standing in streaming and Apple as well. And our sense is that Apple takes a generational approach to building this video business and just wants to buy content and build gradually and in a really high quality way. So they're in no hurry. The losses that they incur in streaming are tiny compared to their total company EBITDA.

Is there anything where you think that investors out there have a misconception about something or they're not paying enough attention to something else. What do you find that people are surprised by when you tell them about this space? The sheer dollars being lost on streaming and how they make streaming look like a bad business. And I make the case frequently to investors that streaming is going to be a decent business. And then when I point out some of the reasons why it makes people scratch their chins a little bit. So when you look at Disney as a big microcosm on what's happening, they spend about $30 billion on cash content company-wide. Of that, about $10 billion is sports and about $20 billion is other. And they're generating just over $20 billion in streaming revenue. They lost $4 billion of operating profit last year.

And our argument is that there's a lot of scope to reduce your cost structure and be profitable because there's so much revenue. There's not a business in the S&P 500 with $20 billion plus of revenue that doesn't make money. And the average profit margin of the S&P 500 is 13%. And the movie studio business back before the pandemic, when the theatrical window was productive, had mid-teens margins for the companies that were bigger, Universal and Warner. Disney had margins in the 20s. And so I use all those landmarks to calibrate my opinion that over five years, streaming is headed for solid double digit operating profit margins. But there's this enormous uncertainty about subs times ARPU and cost and how to get those things in balance. Got it. So it has a good shot at finding that

balance in the years ahead. And maybe by the end of the decade, we'll see a business that more closely resembles historical show business margins for Disney. Yeah. And I also remind people that there's a lot of product differentiation in video. This isn't eight different wallboard companies, right? Competing on price to fill up the back of a contractor's pickup. These are companies selling things that people have emotions about. And so the game right now is about overspending in order to make sure that you're in the game.

But over the fullness of time, this business has all the attributes of a pretty good business, not a great business, right? It's a little too easy to cancel a streaming subscription. There are a few too many competitors. There are a few too many egos. The talent has a lot of pricing power. There are things not to like, but there's also a lot to like. I know some wallboard CEOs that want to talk to you about their product differentiation. I wonder if this last 30 seconds might make your podcast. Thanks very much for taking the time to explain it to us.

Appreciate it. It's my pleasure. Good to meet you both. The last 30 seconds did make the podcast, Peter, and all of it was illuminating. And thank you. Coming up, we're talking about money with Katie from money with Katie. That's next after this quick break. Whether you own a bustling hair salon,

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Enterprise. For lives in drive. Jackson, you put me in touch with Katie from Money with Katie, the podcast. She does personal finance. Is it because we talk about investing here, but we don't really do a lot of personal finance stuff, and it's important for the amount of money that you have to put aside when you invest so was it your thought that we'd hit more on personal finance topics um yeah or was it that she's like super popular as a podcaster cool and everyone likes her and you just kind of figured that maybe i'm not as cool and if we talk to her some of her cool might rub off on me. Jackson.

Jackson. The first one. No, the personal finance. That's what I figured. Figured personal finance. Yeah. So I'll tell you just a couple of things about Katie.

Got to see. She applied for a job at an outfit called Nerd Wallet, wanted to write about finance and didn't get the job and was disappointed, but then figured, well, I could just write about personal finance on my own. And she does. She has a blog and she does a podcast. She started this podcast during the pandemic and it became very popular, so popular that she made a deal with Morning Brew, which is this newsletter service.

And so now she is part of that company and works for them. As she describes on her website, she's not a financial professional, meaning an advisor or portfolio manager or accountant. She's just a person with a passion for the subject and a person who's really caught on with audiences. So I spoke with Katie about financial tick tock and student loans and what to save on and what not to save on and blaming boomers for stuff. And Jackson, let's play part of that conversation. You got it. Are you sticking with that? You got it. I mean, it's good. I don't think I want another take or you feel good about it. We'll go with it. Sounded like maybe you had it in the holster for a while. You sounded pretty eager about pulling it out.

But it's okay. I'll be much more dry next time. On the point of trying to find balance, saving, but also providing for some enjoyment now, how do you prioritize? balance saving, but also providing for some enjoyment now. How do you prioritize? What are the kinds of things that are worth it to splurge on now? And what are the kinds of things that you should best leave alone? Or is it different for every person? Well, yeah, at the risk of having the cop-out answer, I do think it looks different for every person. But I think the way that I think about it is where in your life do you spend the most time? And for most of us, we spend the majority of our lives living inside what I like to call, and I've co-opted this from another writer who does not write about finance, but it's a fitting topic for finance, the mundane Wednesday, which is basically your average workday. It's how can you invest in things that are going to make the section or the segment of your life within which you spend the most time better. So to give some

specific and maybe silly examples, how can you pay for convenience and remove stress or remove friction from your day? I know that the FI world really, and FI meaning the financial independence community, there's always a big emphasis on don't waste money on a car. Well, if you commute an hour to work every day, it's probably worthwhile for you to have a car that maybe has heated seats and some cup holders and a working radio. Maybe it's a meal prep service that's going to buy back several hours a week. Maybe it's hiring someone to clean your house for you so that you're not having to spend your Sunday evenings cleaning. I think those things are worthwhile to splurge on just to make your regular existence a little bit more enjoyable, as opposed to, I think, the way we often think about financial goals, which is like, I really need to save up to have this big lavish wedding or like I really need to save up so I can have this big seven bedroom home. But there's a lot of research that indicates that the things that we think those really big purchases or those really huge shifts, the big flashy wedding, the pool in the backyard. I mean, like those are the types of things where we really seriously

overestimate the amount of impact on our happiness they're going to have, but they tend to take up the lion's share of our financial planning. So I think it's fun to flip it on its head and be like, no, but I spend 50% of my life sitting at this desk or 30% of my life laying in bed. It probably makes sense to invest in a good mattress. No, like those are the types of things that I think are kind of fun to think about. I was just thinking the same thing, the bed. I've thought about the same thing in kind of different wording. Just what are the things you do every day? What's the amount of time that you spend? So I think everyone should have the best toothbrush. Everyone should have the best razor. Everyone should have the best bed they can get and everyone should get the best coffee they can get and everyone should get the best coffee

they can get their hands on. Yeah, right? And I love those examples because no one of those things is going to break the bank, but the sheer frequency with which you use them, you might as well pay a little bit more and have it be a better experience or a better outcome. How do you invest your money?

You have mutual funds. What do you do? Yeah, I really like the hands-off solutions or the maybe hands partially on, partially off solutions. I really like the kind of robo-advisor approach for regular people who maybe are not interested in hiring a money manager. I personally like to invest relatively aggressively, but definitely outside of large cap growth, which is a very popular category. A lot of my peers and a lot of the conversations that I see on the personal finance content circles online on Instagram or TikTok or Twitter, whatever,

it's mostly like, just put all your money in the S&P 500 and leave it alone. And I definitely see that approach. I understand why they recommend that. But for me personally, I think that's a little bit too concentrated, even though it is 500 companies. It's so heavy tech. And I just would prefer to scatter my eggs around a little bit more rather than putting them all in that basket. How much is an okay amount to pay for fees and how much is too much? I am personally a fan of DIY, mostly because I think being a DIY investor in 2023 looks very different from a DIY investor in 1993, because now we do have those financial technology products that make it pretty brainless. You don't really have to know much to

get a diversified portfolio. I am pretty anti-fees, but yeah, I would say I probably wouldn't touch anything over 50 basis points, even if you have somebody, a person involved. I've seen some really egregious stuff though. Front load fees and then 2% assets under management. I mean, just like ludicrous where you see the statements and you're like, I cannot believe. I mean, they're fleecing you. On Wall Street, they call that the good old days. Yeah, I'm sure. That's how it used to be.

There's a fun Twitter account. I can't quite remember the name, but the idea is that they post videos from TikTok. Oh, yeah. Investors of TikTok. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so they sort of cherry pick, right? And the ones that they show do not seem to have the best ideas, right? Right. And so I think that the implication is like, look at what these knuckleheads are saying to do on TikTok. But we were just talking about fees. And you can see how money management fees have been driven down over time because of the demands of investors, including many young investors.

People like yourself are saying, we don't want to pay that much. So, so what's the verdict on the 20 something investor, the 30 something investor, are they like they are portrayed in these, you know, in these TikTok videos? You know, those man on the street videos, they'll go out and they'll ask people on the street, like, ah, who was the first president of the United States? Or like, how many states are there? And you know, that they had to ask a few people to find someone that didn't know how to spell the color orange. I think that's- O-R-A. Wait, no, I'm in too deep. Go ahead. I'm bailing out. You're seeing the most ridiculous stuff. But I do think that the economy that we are entering now is going to be a great remedy for a lot of that

stock picking advice. Because I think that genre became very popular in 2021, where you really could buy 10s, no matter what you bought by the end of the day, it was going to be higher. Like that's not the case anymore. So I think you're going to see a lot of that type of stuff get flushed out of the system. I tend to think that the vast majority of people in their 20s and 30s that are investing, that are saying, I don't want to pay someone else to do it. I'm doing it myself are not the TikTok investors. They're the people that do have accounts with Betterment or are

invested in a 100% VTSAX portfolio on Vanguard and are not checking it incessantly or trying to beat the market. They're just trying to match the market. So a lot of young people could probably benefit from meeting with a professional on a fee-only planner basis to get a sense for, are they saving enough? Are they going to hit their goals? Are they saving in the right places? Are they overextended in any way? I think those are the types of questions that people have a harder time answering. But to me, the kind of set it and forget it investing style is almost the easiest piece of the equation for the regular person. I think the regular person is probably struggling more from the fact that they have a $900 car payment that they should not have taken on than like that their portfolio is not perfectly

optimized. Or is the getting still good for, you know, young people just getting started in a career? Do they have enough opportunity to generate positive savings? Are the jobs there? Are the incomes there? What's your sense of what it's like for someone just starting out now? Yeah, it's interesting. It's a very weird generation because the top, I'll say, 1% to 5% are doing exceptionally well, extraordinarily well, better than their parents by a long shot. The millennials that had maybe entered the housing market in 2011,

they bought a foreclosure in 2011, maybe using a gifted down payment, had no student loans, and went into tech. They're great. They've never been better. But the lion's share are actually doing worse than generations past. So there's really, when you look at the wealth distribution and income distribution of the generation of that, you know, that subset of 27 to 42 year olds, it's negative net worth up until about the 40th percentile. And then at the median, you've got maybe a $10,000 net worth. I mean, it's really not good. And then at the very tail end, it skews way up. So I think we can point to a few reasons for that. I think your student loans are a big one. Obviously, there's a lot of liability taken on early in life that

we had not seen in past generations. And then chronic wage suppression. So when you look at wages since the 80s and just the divergence between GDP per capita and income per capita, simply median wages over time have not kept pace while housing and education costs have dramatically outpaced it. So it's just a math problem in that perspective. Like if everything you need to buy costs more, but you cannot command as competitive of a wage, then yeah, it's going to feel tight. To my earlier notes about FinTech, the silver lining of all of this is that Gen X, the boomers, I'll say our parents, did not have a supercomputer in their pocket where they could whip it out and buy a broad-based ETF for free in three clicks. So I think we have far more access to the stock market, the greatest

wealth building machine in the world more than ever before. So I think that's where it's, yeah, sure, you may not be able to buy a house, but you can go buy index funds and you're going to build a ton of wealth that way with a lot less ongoing costs than maybe that house would cost. So it's changing, but- I was just going to ask you if we can agree that baby boomers are to blame for everything. I'm, I'm, I'm Jen. I'm a millennial. I have to say that I'm Jen X and we're too small to have made any difference, but I, you know, baby. And if I talk to the baby boomers, you know, they blame the millennials. I say, Oh yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yeah. We've got an ongoing culture war. What can you tell me about the sweatshirt

you're wearing? It says, well, yeah, it says retired across it. What can you tell me about the sweatshirt you're wearing? It says, well, yeah, it says retired across it. What is, uh, what's the significance of that? Yes. This was my early retirement dream. Um, I initially set out to write about this stuff because I wanted to retire early. I wanted to retire at 35, leave the workforce, live a pretty aesthetic lifestyle, and then do my passion project, Money With Katie, full-time just for fun. And it's interesting now because by 2021, Money With Katie as a business had far eclipsed my income from my traditional career. And then in 2022 was acquired by a different media company, which means to that end, my goal of doing my

passion project full-time, it is now my full-time job. It has taught me a very interesting lesson in kind of finding purpose and setting goals. Because I thought that when I was working on my own thing all day long, that when I could, you know, just do my passion and that I didn't have to work for someone else and, oh my God, my life is going to be amazing. I'm never going to have another bad day. And beginning to think that it's more so like wherever you go, there you are. And the chances are, if there's something that you want to be doing now or a way that you want to be living now, and you are delaying it until an unspecified time in the future, when you feel like, oh, I have enough money now that I can allow myself to do this. Your circumstances are often a scapegoat

for something else. And it's at least for me, not until my circumstances changed. And I realized that I did not change that my circumstances were not the thing that were holding me back. So that has been a really big learning and something that I think is important to stay grounded in when you are planning for retirement or planning a job change. All right. Well, I'm going to ask you where to get one of those retired sweatshirts. I need about 20 years. I'll come back to you and ask. Unless by then I'm wearing a working for Katie sweatshirt, which might be even better.

We'll get you one of each and you can pick. Thank you, Katie. And thanks again to Peter. Thank all of you for listening. Jackson Cantrell is our producer. You can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you listen to Peter. Thank all of you for listening. Jackson Cantrell is our producer. You can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts. And if

you listen on Apple, please write us a review. If you want to find out about new stories and new podcast episodes, you can follow me on Twitter. It's at Jack Howe, H-O-U-G-H. See you next week. When was the last time you tweeted about a new podcast episode? I don't know. I'm living a lie. I think I tweeted, I think the last time you tweeted about a new podcast episode? I don't know.

I'm living a lie. I think the last thing I tweeted was a picture of a bag of M&Ms because it said share size. It was in the airport. And I said, I'll decide what is and is not share size. Thank you very much.