Bear Grease - Ep. 10: Moonshine, NASCAR, and Bear Hunting (Appalachian Culture, Part 2)

Episode Date: July 14, 2021

On this episode, Clay continues to explore southern Appalachian culture. He interviews Roy Clark about his bear hunting and Plott hounds. You’ll hear both laughter and tears. Then we dive in with Dr. Daniel Pierce to learn about the complex history of moonshine, prohibition, and it’s interesting connection to NASCAR. Lastly, we explore with a curious eye the snake handling churches of Appalachia. We’re not making heroes or villains, we’re just telling an American story.  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. First Lights fieldware collection is made for the work that happens long before opening day and continues when the season ends. Products built for early mornings, full days and real use. Hard wearing where they need to be versatile where it matters. No shortcuts. Just gear designed for the work that earns the season.

Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new field. Worldware gear at firstlight.com. I've got a Valentine's card that he sent me when we was about in the fourth grade, I think. On that Valentine's card he sent me, he said, we bear hunters, ain't we wrong? That was his dad. Alvin David's dad.

Yeah, his dad. He said, we bear hunters. We're bar hunters, buddy. And what grade would you, how old would you have been? We was in the fourth grade, so whenever that was. on this episode of the bear grease podcast, we'll continue to explore southern Appalachia. This is part two in the final episode in our series on this region. We'll talk to Mr. Roy Clark and Ira Jones about bear dogs, and we'll dive into the deep end with Dr. Dan Pierce as we try to understand the real story of moonshine, NASCAR, and bear hunting.

We'll also talk about a slithery. subject, one that you'll have to wait until the end to discover. The very foundation of NASCAR is illegal liquor. That is interesting. NASCAR doesn't like to talk about that, but it's foundational. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is the Bear Grease podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant. Search for insight in unlikely places and where we'll tell the story of Americans who live

their lives close to the land. This is Mr. Roy's grandson, Rayle Childress. You would have heard him sing on the previous episode as well. On part one of this series on Southern Appalachian culture, we define the region as the

southern one-third of the Appalachian Mountain Range. We met the Clark family from East Tennessee and discussed their farming, bear hunting, and we heard them play some music. We then talked to Dr. Daniel Pierce about the history of the region, where the people came from, and how the culture of the region was formed.

If you haven't listened to that one, you ought to go back and check it out. On this second and final episode in the series, we'll be talking again with Mr. Roy Clark, but we'll also meet his friend Ira Jones as we dive deeper into their bear hunting. And I'll jump back to Dr. Pierce, and we'll discuss moonshine and NASCAR and one secret topic. Before I jump in, I want to reiterate a few things. Number one, the Appalachian region is a very diverse and modern part of the United States. I've chosen to highlight rural Appalachia just because I love it, and I know some great people that are a part of it. Secondly, you may remember the conclusion we came to at the end of the last podcast.

Understanding the mechanisms of why things are the way they are grants us a better opportunity of value. valuing that culture and the culture of someone else. I think that's important. I'm not trying to make heroes or villains. I'm just trying to tell an American story. Tell me what makes a good-looking plodhound to you. Well, just see how tight he's made and how he's not real big, and he's put together good and stands up good on his front feet and straight and stuff.

See how straight that little bitch of front feet is? Okay, straight. their legs just to go down straight. Yeah, some of them rolled out that way and some of them. This is Mr. Roy Clark and his friend Ira Jones, looking over a fine pack of plot bear dogs. Who's your favorite color? He is.

So that color right there, how would you describe that color? Black bramble. Black brimals. He looks black. You get up to it and you see the brannel in it. So right here, you know, I mean, you can see it, but if he was right down yonder, he's just a black dog. And I've paid attention to that when he told me that. It's been a long time ago, and I look for that a lot.

He said 20 yards, they just look black, and then you get right upon them, you start seeing him strike. They're black dogs. They're black dogs. That are black. Roy's life in Appalachia, he is Southern Appalachia, in my opinion. And that's, I mean, from the music to this way, you're welcome, you'll never come here that you won't feel welcome. That's right. I don't care if it's at midnight, you'll feel welcome. His wife will make you feel that way. He'll make you feel that way.

His nephew, all the family will, Scott, son and law, and two are wonderful people. And that's Southern Appalachian right there. That's the voice of Mr. Ira Jones, who is a friend and hunting partner of Roy Clark. These two breed and raise hunting dogs together. However, to understand the closest of their friendship, I'll need to fill you in on a cultural nuance that may not be intuitive. It's this. Raising bear dogs together requires a high-level human bond. Much trust is involved.

Family lines of dogs are typically closely guarded, not because they want to be kept from, others, but simply because they've got no dogs to spare and they simply aren't for sale. In a pet world, you can buy stud services or puppies from breeders, but in many parts of the bearhound world, this isn't the case. All this to say is that Ira is a great friend of Roy. Well, I'm just, you know, listening here and thanking Roy and our friendship. And one thing that really stands out a lot to me with Roy is, you know, to have a friend, you've got to be a friend. And Roy really understands that, as good as anybody I know. And, you know, we all like the good times in our life.

And when things are good, you know, when things ain't going so good or a little sick and some trouble, you count on Roy. He'll call on you. And he just, he's consistent in that. And, you know, I was listening to him, just talking about some of the hunting. And he's the very best at this right here. He wants everybody to have a good time. Most people you hunt with, I'd rather show you their dogs,

and you're hunting with me today. And Roy, he worries about everybody on the hunt to have a good time. He wants his dogs to do good, and they will. They're well-polished hands. He wants everybody else to have a good time, too, and get their dogs in. And that stuff is just foreign to a lot of people. It's very competitive anyway,

and Roy does his best to keep that out of him. And he's a man of his word and what he says he means and he's truthful in it. And he's, I mean, he's awesome. He really is. I've never met anybody like him. And I truly mean that. He knows how to be a friend. And that's something that most of us forgot.

We want friends. We don't really like being a friend sometimes. Ira went on to talk some about plot hounds. No doubt. I mean, when you're talking about dogs and I've hunted a lot, you're going to see some guns and all them, baddens and all of them, and we're not claiming the plot dog as the superior, a number one mate ever need you got,

but if you get behind it, I've always said this, just because the dog is bruntled, don't mean that I might look at him a little closer, but it's about bloodlines, and that's something that we're pretty rich into is the bloodlines. We're not just hunting a color, we're hunting a particular type of dog,

that his family, for generations, has had big influence. influence in and I like to feel like we've had a little influence in a bloodline as well on our side of things and These you know that's kind of worse at is these bloodlines. I was looking the day before come over some papers. I was trying to track down some papers Just looking back and how far back we're going on some of these dogs and I like that and you know Heavy fan of line breeding. I know Roy is Tell me what song you're singing.

Hound dog blues What's this song about? The hound dog blues. This is Jill, Mr. Roy's daughter. See, well, your old hound dog, he sure looks a lot like you. Your old hound dog, he sure looks a lot like you. Every time I see him, I always get the hound dog. Dogaloo.

Mr. Roy is 72 years old and a native of East Tennessee. I asked him about his history with the breed of dog that he's been involved with his whole life. Tell me about your history with plot hounds in East Tennessee. It's just like what I said, I was born into bear hunting, and I was sort of born into plot hound dogs, too. I ain't saying that that made them be better dogs and other dogs. That's just sort of what I grew up with. And we sort of had some plots in. My grandpa had a plot or two and Daddy had a plot or two.

But then when Charles Gant come into the picture, which was in the early 50s, and then he bred plots, and him and Daddy went places and got dogs that they bred, that Charles bred to start with to get his foundation, and go on, and he made a big breeder of plot hounds. So we had plots to hunt, and we could get anything. We wanted off a charles and honey, whether we kept it or not, just back and forth, you know.

And I guess I just growled to the plot dog, but then I've owned a number one Walker and a number one blue tick, and a few more that's been mixed up through the years, early years, that could match up to the plot dogs, but I guess as a whole, I've just got to see more out of plots and I have anything else. I actually believe, my belief on the plot dogs is they all ain't going to make number one bear dogs. But I believe you'll get more out of plot dogs than you will and the other breed. I really believe that. Now, there's people that probably won't agree with me there.

You folks are a very diverse audience, so I've got to explain something very serious that just happened. A small percentage of you just got your feelings hurt when Mr. Roy declared his devoted allegiance and love of the plot dog, because you don't hunt plots, and you wish that this podcast was about the breed of dog that you hunt. And there's a much smaller group of you who are plot dog junkies that just got validated and her pompous. that five-star rating on iTunes right now. This is exactly why I love houndsmen. They're so dang passionate. But most of you people don't have any reference at all

of what a good breed of bear dog is. So you have to trust me when I say that this is a contentious topic that nary a podcaster dare delve into. You see, there are multiple breeds of hounds. The United Kennel Club, but registers treading walkers, blue ticks, black and tans, red bones, English, and American leopard hounds. All of these breeds can be used for bear hunting, and plots are a minority percentage by far.

Most would agree that some variation of the Walker hound dominates the hound world. Walkers are a beautiful, tricolored, white, black, and brown dog. They're wildly popular, and that's probably why this podcast isn't about them. The plot dog is known for the cult-like devotion of their owners and the unique story of the formation of the breed. But that's for a future conversation. Consider yourself informed. So the plot hound was developed in these mountains in this region. What does the plot dog mean to you besides just being a.

a dog that you can use to go catch a bear. I mean, do you feel like you have some deep emotional connection to a, to a plot hound? Yeah, I feel that, and I've got too many now. But it's sort of like on in a, on and say a racking horse or a walking horse. And you get used to them, well, then a quarter horse or a non-gated horse that trots and jorgy to death, you don't like it. You like that good smooth ride of that running walk or that racking horse. you get close to the plotch, and to me they'll make a house dog, a bear dog, and maybe the quietest dog you ever seen might be the best bear dog you ever seen.

And I'm sure if you had walkers or you had blue ticks or you had something else, and that's what you bred, and that's what you got used to, that's what you'd like. But I just got into the plodch, and I had an easy access to them, and that's just what I like. Well, it really is part of the mountain culture over here, and the story of the plot hound is so unique. I guess, you know, that we lived so close to where the plots started from, that they give us a better, we had a better shot at getting plots instead. Well, I just say this much about the hunting and about,

and ours sitting right over there can fast for me a little bit. I've burned a long time, and I've mostly hunted plot dogs. but everybody can hunt whatever they want to. That's just what I'm mostly hunting. And I feel like in my lifetime that we've owned some as good of dogs that you can buy. And I feel good about the dogs that we've owned and bred and trained ourselves and not had to go out and buy dogs, didn't have the money to buy them no way. And all the dogs we've used is what we've trained ourselves.

So I feel like that's a good accomplishment. and I feel like I've owned dogs that I would have hunted with anybody that wanted to bear hunt and I don't feel like I'd been ashamed of. That's saying something. That's what I think anyway. In effort to understand hunting

and the human bond it produces, I want to let you listen to a short clip which is completely taken out of context so you have to pay attention for it to make sense. But the moment involves real tears. In 2019 on my former podcast, the Bear Honey magazine podcast, I interviewed Mr. Roy in the Laurel Mountain Bearhunters, which is basically the longtime friends that he hunts with. It includes fathers, sons, daughters, old and young alike.

In this clip, Mr. Roy is talking about a Valentine's Day card he got when he was in the fourth grade from a man named Floyd Ray Ford, who is not in the room. But Floyd's son, Alvin David, is in the room and is now in his mid-50s. Alvin David is not miced up, but Mr. Roy's attention turns to Alvin David, and he begins to speak to him. I've got a Valentine's card in our that he sent me when we was about in the fourth grade, I think. And on that Valentine's card he sent me, he said, we buy her hundred. ain't we're wrong. That was his dad.

Alvin David's dad. Yeah, his dad. He said, we bear hunters, aren't we? We bear hunters, buddy. And what grade would you, how old would you have been? We was in the fourth grade, so whenever that was, how long ago? About nine years old, right? Yeah.

Something like that. So you went ahead and just stuck with that identity, didn't you? Yeah. Yeah. His daddy sort of left us coming and went some. He's back now. Maybe you'll stay. But that boy, right channel, ain't never fired a day, buddy.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love him. Yeah, I love it too. Yep. That just shows you, Clay, what it means to us. You know, it's beyond just going out and having a big time hunting.

Yeah. It's beyond just a group of guys here hanging out in Roy's house. You know, it's our life. Yeah. You know, it's something we've all grown up doing all the way back through, and it's just a bond. Yeah. Yeah. It really is.

It really is. Son, he won't leave your buddy. He won't leave you out there. I don't go out on yesterday. Yeah. I wanted to get a perspective for Mr. Roy about moonshine in the region. Part of this section you would have heard. heard in part one of this series.

My daddy and grandpa and uncle and some of their close friends and stuff probably turned me against drinking and stuff because they stay drunk all the time. So you don't drink? No, I never drank. So you saw the moonshine as a negative thing. You know, because there's a stereotype this region is known for making moonshine and liquor. And it's kind of been glorified in some way. But there's a lot of real negative stuff that came with that as well.

If there was anything to Munche that was good out of it, to me, would have been selling it and getting the money to have to live on. Other than that, I didn't see nothing good out of it. And I always thought to myself, I ain't going to never drink, because I put up with it my whole life, and I ain't going to be like that. For somebody had to put up a month. He's like that.

Yeah. We've now heard from Mr. Roy and Mr. Ira Jones. We've heard them talk about their bear hunting and dogs and a bit about moonshine. Now I want to shift gears and talk again with Dr. Daniel Pierce of the University of North Carolina, Asheville. He's an author and National Authority on the Southern Appalachian culture, and I want to talk with him about moonshine, NASCAR, and bear hunting. All of these things he's written. extensively about in his books, you can look some of them up. And we'll tiptoe in to the bonus topic that I did not want to advertise, but I'm about to leak it out, snake handling churches.

So tell me about how liquor played an influence in the culture here. It was huge. You know, for one thing, my mother doesn't like this at all. You know, culturally, you know, one of the things that this Scotts Irish bra was the Gaelic word, I can't even pronounce it, but for liquor, it's like water of life, you know. And so, I mean, it was, it was, you know, it was a big part of life. It was just common. Yeah, you know, I mean, you know, there are stories. Even though they were Protestants, a lot of them were Protestant.

I mean, you know, prohibition doesn't come into the picture, really, into the late 1800s, early 20th century. There was no disability. I mean, you could be a Baptist preacher, you know, and, you know, Jack Daniels, who was his, I think it was his adopted father, you know, who taught him, you know, how to make liquor, supposedly, you know, was a preacher, you know, so there wasn't any sort of disability, you know, during that period of the late 1700s, in the first half of the, or really to the end of the 1800s about making or drinking liquor as long as you, you know, the churches would frown on people being drunk all the time. we're being abusive and stuff, but, you know, liquor was a big part of culture. It was a big part of medicine. You know, people would say, okay, here are good herbs, but you really need the liquor to make it work. And, of course, the liquor made you at least feel a little better, you know, it dulled the pain, you know, that type of thing.

So it was a big part of cures. Did the actual distillation of what would become known as moonshine, was that process, unique to America or was that exactly what they were doing in Ireland? Yeah, yeah. It's the same thing. Yeah. And again, in a lot of cases, they, you know, they would bring a small steel with them. The cultural importance, the economic importance is huge.

And people have this notion about subsistence and how people provided for all their own needs. But there's certain things you can't do with that. One of those things is you can't pay your taxes. You can't pay your property taxes. people had to pay property tax in order to keep their land. There weren't a lot of ways to get cash. There are some medicinal herbs like ginseng in particular that had high value or you sold hogs or cattle. But the most dependable source of cash for people in this region, and this continued after you get into the federal excise tax, which makes much of it production illegal,

is liquor. So in the, just in the 20th century, there was a prohibition on liquor. I'm trying to find out how this was, this was illegal, because there was a time when it wasn't. So there was a prohibition on liquor

and people were making it illegally. And then number two, I guess it would have been people making untaxed liquor or making liquor illegally and not being taxed. So describe to me how it was, became so taboo.

So original, I mean, people look at this and talk about moonshine and they say, oh, prohibition. And they say, well, for 40 years or so, it's not prohibition. Because 1862, the U.S. Congress passes an excise tax on liquor, which is still in effect to this day. Now, that had been tried once before by Alexander Hamilton resulted in the Whiskey Rebellion in Pennsylvania and widespread ignoring of it in other parts of the country. Thomas Jefferson got elected at least part of it.

because he pledged that when he got elected, that excise tax on liquor was going away, and it did. And so for, you know, for, you know, up until 1862, you know, from roughly 1801 to 18, well, actually, and before Alexander Hamilton, it was perfectly legal to make liquor. Anybody could make it. Anybody can make it. Yeah, sell it any amount.

1862, of course, this is in the midst of the Civil War. It didn't have much impact or didn't have any impact in the Confederate States. But then once the war's over with, they're subject to this excise tax. So you had to make a decision to pay the tax. One, in order to get a license to make liquor, you had to make a significant amount. Most of these people are making, you know, relatively small amounts for their own consumption and for, you know, as a barter item or, you know, a cash item. And they're not making enough to qualify.

Even if you are, and if you're making, you know, right just over the limit, you're not making enough to make any profit. I can see what's happening here. They're getting set up for kind of an outlaw liquor culture. Well, you can't, yeah, okay, again, this is deeply embedded in their culture. This is incredibly important. And then all of a sudden, the government comes in who they probably distrust anyway. Well, it's a federal government, you know, in Confederate states.

Yeah. I mean, and, of course, there's a train wreck waiting there happen. There are plenty of unionists like my kin, you know, who my great, great-grandfather fought for the Union cavalry, you know. And so, and that whole thing of independence. This is my right, you know, this is my God-given right to make liquor. And, of course, you know, not a lot of respect for the federal government in much of the region. And even people that supported the union didn't think it was appropriate for the government to do this. You know, and again, for most people, and they couldn't make any profit off of making it legally and paying the tax.

And so you have to ask yourself a question, okay, am I going to do, make it legally? that's pretty much out of the question for most people. Or am I going to quit making it? Or am I going to make it illegally? And there is kind of a misconception about moonshine because not everybody who's making moonshine is like a career moonshine maker. These are mainly small farmers who make it in the off months. It's kind of an off, you know, after the harvest and before you start planting.

It's cooler. That's a better time to make liquor anyway. You don't want to make it in hot weather. It's hard. It doesn't make as good a liquor. And so, you know, that's part of their seasonal thing, you know. And so most people are doing it, again, you know, not making a lot. But now, of course, they have to get more creative in terms of, they can't just go walk in the store now, you know, with a load of liquor and exchange it or get cash for.

So they've got to find new ways to market it. And then when Prohibition comes in, in the 30s, winded Prohibition. Prohibition comes in. Then actually in much of the Southern Appalachian region, most states passed what were called local option laws where like a county or a municipality could make their liquor laws. And so they may say you can't make liquor within so many miles of a school or a church or something like that. And pretty quickly a lot of counties go dry.

And then you get statewide movements. Like North Carolina, for instance, becomes a dry state in one of the first in the south in 1909. 1909. So well before national prohibition, much of the South. Does that mean you couldn't buy or sell? Can't buy, sell, make legally. And so this eliminates the legal thing, which is great if you're an illegal producer.

Prohibition is the best thing that ever happened to these guys. Because demand. Because the demand sky rockets for them because there's no legal production. There's no legal sale. This is a good place to give an overview. National prohibition was in effect from 1920 to 1933, and during this time making or selling alcohol was illegal, so overnight distilling liquor became an incredibly profitable business.

However, in many states and counties, it was illegal long before that, and many made it illegally to avoid taxation and permitting. Maybe this is obvious, but moonshires. got its name because distillers made liquor at night under the light of the moon. The process requires heat, which means you have to have fire, and fire makes smoke, which can be seen in the daylight. Prohibition led to a period of organized crime that was fueled by distillers. Speak-Easies started to pop up all over the country, which were basically secret and illegal bars where illicit alcohol was served. Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls

and building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts. Now, I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use. I'm not going to go, I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen. But when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for. I have a great turkey hunting track record. If you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contests, right? That's who I listen to.

I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps's cut, and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts. Check out Prime Cuts at Phelpsgamecalls.com. I think you'll be glad you did, and you'll find out that the Steve Ronella cut is an easy-to-use cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good turkey noises and getting action.

back to Dr. Pierce. You know, there is some evidence that prohibition may have lowered consumption a little, but the demand doesn't go away. It's a set of, I mean, like, if you understand culture at all, you see how this would become something that would be, in some ways, very negatively viewed upon by some groups, and then other groups very positively, just like it would become significant in the culture,

by the way the laws were set up. And particularly in rural areas. I mean, you know, you get most of your prohibition put coming out of the towns and the growing cities. And, you know, mill owners are very interested in it because they don't want their workers drinking, you know. And there's a racial component, too. They want to keep alcohol out of the hands of African Americans because they see that as a disruptive thing and potential trouble there. And so a lot of this actual prohibition stuff comes in alongside white supremacy, and campaigns and Jim Crow laws and stuff like that, you know, in the early 20th century.

Let me ask you this. I had somebody that I really respect give this perspective to me, and he's the Appalachian guy, big time. He said that the moonshiner's, I think he was particularly talking about the moonshiners during prohibition, were like the meth dealers of our time. And so his whole point is, why are we glorifying? And these guys that had such a negative effect on society. And I'm certain there are places, there are situations where what he's saying is like 100% true.

Because he said, he said, Clay, there's been a lot of Appalachian women and kids beaten, neglected because of moonshine. And, you know, and he had a strong point to me. Tell me, do you feel like that's an accurate depiction? Well, it's part of the story. And, you know, there are, and actually their family. that you can trace and say, okay, moonshine. I made moonshine and that continues, and then they get into the late 60s or something.

That market drives up. They start growing marijuana, you know, and then later they're going to move into meth and stuff like that. So that happens. And for sure, moonshine, you know, and I always in amyce to my mother, you know, I always have to point out the negative sides of this, you know. So there are a lot of, there's a lot of downside too.

it, you know, in terms of, you know, what it did to families. The other thing is that people kind of now, because there's kind of a craft, almost craft moonshine movement now, you know, and then the quote legal moonshine business, you know, and there are these notions about, oh, these fine liquor makers. You know, most of the stuff they made would just horrible. I mean, and they would put, and of course, you know, because it's not regulated, who knows what's in it, you know, and they used all kinds of things from chicken manure to lie, to buck eyes to, you know, anything, because what they wanted to do, well, and one other thing,

when Prohibition comes on big time, the whole recipe for liquor changes, and it's much less corn and a lot of refined sugar, which distills much quicker and at a higher proof than just corn. You know, the traditional recipe was, you know, basically you got cornmeal, you got corn malt and water, and you let it sit for a week and, you know, in barrels or something like that, and it makes what they call a beer, and then you take that, you pour it in the still, and you distill it, you know, and it goes through the coil and all that. But that changes, you know, and this sugar liquor, as they call it, you know, I mean, it's called it bust head and stingo and it's just bad stuff.

And again, you don't know what's in it, you know. And again, particularly later when you get like, people start using galvanized metal, I mean, that gets, you get a lot of... So you get some people getting sick or dying. You get people died, yeah, because of the lead acetate, you know, that goes into it. People are using, you know, car radiators for condensers, you know, so you don't know. And so there, you know, there are a lot of potential problems. On the other side of that, and I think the thing is missing from a lot of moonshine stories is that for a lot of people,

they were involved in this business for a relatively short period of time, usually probably as a young man. or as, you know, one thing I found lots of women involved, particularly in selling, you know, widows, women who've been abandoned. And so people use it as kind of an insurance kind of thing or as a way as a young person to get together, you know, what they call it grub steak, you know, make some cash money, buy land or, you know, do whatever, you know. And then you go, I've got a friend who'd written a really good book called The Spirits of Just Men. And he kind of looks at his own family history as kind of a framework for this book on Moonshot. And his grandfather told him, like, when he was in a age, he had no clues. Grandfather was like a pillar of community in a rural community in Virginia. Just, you know, he deacon in the Baptist church and so respected in the community, total teetotaler.

And he tells him that, yeah, you know, when I was 14, I left home. I went to work in a cotton mill. and when I had enough money, I got a car, and then I started hauling liquor to West Virginia to the cold towns. And it was like he was shocked, you know. And so, you know, he couldn't believe it. But, you know, he made enough money. He comes back home with this money.

He buys land again, and he's a pillar of the community, you know. And nobody, and never breathes a word of what he's done. So there's so many families. So, again, there's that negative side. but there's also this side where it was again for a lot of people you know a way that they could hold on to their land or buy land or you know get started in life or or get through a bad patch in their life and one of the thing because there's kind of this notion about moonshiners kind of being these ignorant rednecks you know stupid overall wearing hillbilly a lot of your moonshiners were you're more I think intelligent entrepreneurial types And some of these people, you know, got pretty successful at it. In fact, if you look, one of the things, there are a lot of things I can't prove, but I believe pretty strongly, you can look at some major, well, lots of businesses and even

major international corporations who got their start and finance capital from proceeds of illegal alcohol. Because these people, you know, and if you're really good at it, and some of these people, you know, by the, well, 20s, 30, 14, they're making millions. Wow. And if you got that much cash, you can't walk into a bank with it. You got to do something with it. You got to do something with it.

And so, you know, you can see. And it's really interesting to look at some of these really heavily, you know, counties that have a lot of a big reputation in terms of moonshine. And then look at some of the corporations that come out of these plates. And you've got to ask, okay. You know, or banks even. They got their starting some old money. Got their, yeah, exactly.

You know, so again, it's an answer, you know, for most people, though, it's part of subsistence, you know, it's part of getting by, it's part of paying my property taxes. This is a good place to tell you a family story related to Moonshine, my family. Such stories are fairly common in this part of the world. You may remember my sweet mother, Judy, from a few podcasts back. We call her Juju. She's as close to a perfect mom as possible, but there are a few mysterious secrets lurking in our family's past. Her father, Houston Millsap, was born in 1916 near Waldron, Arkansas.

He became a teenager during the peak of federal prohibition. The full story isn't known, but he worked for a family of moonshiners that the authorities were dead set on busting. We don't think he was involved in actually making liquor, but he was associated with this family. When he was 16 years old, he was apprehended in question about his knowledge of the illegal operation. His mouth was sealed shut and he would not leak a drop of information. This is where some of the mystery lies. I don't know how they got away with this, but because he wouldn't talk, sent him away to a juvenile detention center for an extended period of time.

My mother was told that, quote, when he came back, he was skinny and wouldn't talk about what happened there. A couple of things here, potentially positive and negative. When my father spoke of his father-in-law, he said, Houston was honest to a fault. He wouldn't turn in those moonshiners even when it would have gotten him out of trouble. This was viewed as honorable. However, my mother and wife collectively said to me, Clay, if your son was working for some meth dealers and went to jail because he wouldn't tell on

him, do you think that would be honorable? The time in that detention center changed Houston's life most likely for the worst. These ladies make a strong point. With that story, we're going to switch gears. Dr. Pierce wrote a book called Real NASCAR, White Lightning, Red Clay, and Big Bill France. I wanted to get some context on NASCAR. Dr. Pierce, tell me how NASCAR fits into Appalachian culture.

Well, first off, when I first started doing research on on NASCAR, I really thought, because a lot of, you know, when you get into the details and stuff, it's always a lot more complicated than you think. You know, a lot of the stereotypes and the standard stories are, you know, are kind of myths and stuff. And so the myth of NASCAR, you know, was a whole, these moonshiners were, you know, when the automobile came in, you know, they got very good at modifying them and they're outrunning the law, you know, and these, you know, I don't know if you know the movie Thunder Road or anything, you know, or the Dukes of Hazard, you know, that kind of thing. You know, so these good old boys, you know, and hopping up these cars.

And then they start racing, you know, and so I thought, you know, that's a great story. And for sure there were people like that. I mean, Junior Johnson is very much a legend, you know, and he obviously, he had a criminal record. He served time in the federal penitentiary, you know, for Moonshine. His family had deep roots, you know. And I thought, well, there's some junior Johnsons, but that's exaggerated. And so I really thought, you know, what I'd find was that moonshine didn't have that much of an impact. But as I put it in the introduction of the book, the deeper I look, the more liquor I found.

And so it just really permeated. And so most of the early drivers were people that gained their first high-speed driving experience behind the wheel of a car hauling liquor, you know, and develop mechanical ability. But then as the sport develops in the late 30s and early 40s, you know, you see people who are mechanics. I mean, you know, a good way to make a living in any of these regions was to work. on cars and particularly moonshiner's cars because they pay cash you know and so you know so some of these people got really good you know some of the moonshiners themselves but you know local mechanics got really

good because they had a lot of money to work on things and the center to do that you know and so then that translates into racing then you got okay these people have cash they need to do something with so a lot of the promoters were people who were kind of big time in the liquor business and they're moving cash and then even the people that built the racetracks in the early days, a lot of them were liquor money. So did NASCAR start here? NASCAR starts, you know, technically in Daytona. Daytona Beach, Bill France, who was a mechanic who moved to the area and he gets involved.

They originally raced on the beach at Daytona. That was the biggest race of the year. But then it spreads through the region, and as it spreads through the region, these moonshunters start coming in. And all of a sudden you got people like Lloyd C. He shows up in Atlanta, Lakewood Speedway, for one of the first big stock car races there. He's 18 years old. Nobody's heard of him, and he wins a race.

Well, the Atlanta Constitution has an article the next day that says, nobody heard of Lloyd C, and he comes out of nowhere to win this race against some of the top race drivers in the country. He said, nobody heard of him except for the Atlanta police. And at 18, he already had a long record and reputation, you know, for Holland Liverpool. I heard a guy say the other day, he said, if you want to find the real race car drivers, he said, find the revenue officers that were good at catching these guys. Well, the revenue officers were generally outgunned because they were driving some crappy government car, you know, and this guy had, you know, every performance part you could buy it to California, you know, on it. And so, yeah, all the way from, you know, Bill France, I mean, there's some questions about Bill France, but, you know, and the France family still owns NASCAR. He definitely knew lots of people.

And, you know, he always denied that he knew anything about it. But he knew, and actually was business partners with lots of people. And again, you know, most of the people, again, track owners, promoters, car owners, mechanics, and then driver. themselves you know were people who got their experience or their money you know out of illegal liquor so the very foundation of NASCAR is illegal liquor that is interesting NASCAR doesn't like to talk about that it's it's foundational you know i tell you who else can drive good in the appalachians and that's bear hunters um modern day bear hunters uh trying to cut off dog races tell me tell me what you know about bear hunting with hounds not we we earlier we

We talked about how there was a free-range hog culture here, pretty dominant, and those guys would have, like, for sure, been using dogs to round it up. Is that where we – well, North Carolina, this part of the world, has such a rich history with hound hunting from the plot hound, which is the state dog of North Carolina, which was a bear and hog dog, a big game dog. Tell me what you know about bear hunting with hounds. Yeah, this is part of the German influence. actually, you know, the hunting with hound.

Because, again, it's a, it's, it's more of it. And I guess people who, who, who work for the nobility, you know, brought those skills and brought dogs with them. Right, right. In many cases. And so, you know, these breeds develop, but, you know, bear hunting early on in particular, of course, hunting becomes important for subsistence. Bear grease and, you know, maybe a bear hide or something could be good, but it's not exactly

necessary for your subsistence. but it's a communal activity. I mean, traditionally, the way bears are hunted, you know, and again, this is, you know, you go back to the Cherokee and what these people learn from the Cherokee. But again, they're bringing something new to the equation, which are hounds. And so, but it's an important communal activity.

And you go, I mean, even today, you know, you go, I mean, it's like it's generational. Yeah. You know, you got the old guy, you know, who's been doing it for years and has that, that deep knowledge and then the younger guys who can still run the mountains and then the kids. You know, you see, you know, a lot of boys and you'll see girls these days, you know, out with these folks on a bear hunt.

Here is our secret topic. My curiosity pushed me to ask Dr. Pierce about the snake handling churches of Appalachia made famous by some recent television shows. Honestly, I'm hesitant to bring it up for fear that drawing attention, of this would paint an untrue picture of the vast majority of Christians in Southern Appalachia, but I decided to leave in this portion of our interview. You'll have a greater chance of being struck by lightning than meeting someone who handles snakes for ceremony. It's extremely rare.

I also want to say that I believe deeply in religious freedom. So my intent is not to mar anyone's reputation or bring into question their motives, but purely to peer with a curious eye into the snake handling phenomena. Dr. Pierce, you hear of these snake handling churches in the Appalachians. And I know that there are churches that do that. How common is that? Is that sensationalized? And kind of where did that start?

Yeah, it is sensationalized. And, of course, you know, cables picked up on, I think there was a show called Snake Salvation or something like. that on some cable channel you know it and it's something you know it's kind of an interesting history in terms it grows out of Cleveland Tennessee area and there's a guy in that area named George Hensley who a lot of the start of this is credit to who's who's who's kind of alternately a preacher and a I don't know rounder moonshineer you know he'd repent and come back but he you know he takes is it mark 16 I think. Right. There's biblical passage in the gospel.

Yeah. And it's really interesting, someone who's interested in religious history as well, that someone didn't do this earlier, you know. Did it totally have its roots here? I mean, nowhere else in the world they were handling snakes. No, not that I know of. And it's the one scripture that says you'll handle deadly serpents and will not be harmed. Essentially is what it says. And drink poison and stuff like. So you see this type of thing, you know, they'll drink strychnine in some of these. So this is early 20th century, and it, and it kind of becomes, just for a variety of reasons, you know, I mean, it's, you know, it's hard to, you know, why do people do things

religiously, but I think, you know, it does relate to, you know, these are very rural churches, they're, they're very poor congregations generally. You know, partly, it, you know, it is something that will definitely give you some distinction in your community if you're willing to grab of rattlesnakes. you know and and and and and and and and one of the things that's really and I I've never actually witnessed it in person I know a number of people that have and the thing that you know that even people I remember I had a Jewish friend in graduate school and she actually saw this and and her reaction was just like you know I just can't believe the faith and actually there have been several accounts of of scholars or reporters or people who have been covering this

and they get kind of sucked into it themselves. It's kind of weird. There's a very famous book called Salvation on Sand Mountain, a guy named Dennis Covington, who was a reporter from the New York Times. He ends up handling the snake. You know, and it's kind of a seduction in some. Again, it's relatively small.

You did have a period in the late 20s and into the 1930s where, I mean, you would have big outdoor meetings, you know, with hundreds, if not thousands of people, you know, in some parts of the region. And then the government started cracking down because people were dying. Really? The government came in and said you can't do this.

It is illegal in most states and maybe illegal everywhere. So to do this. And there have been a number of court cases, you know, like endangering children and, you know, things like this. But it's, you know, it's small and it's really small now. But it still happens, you know. And it kind of goes in waves. Yeah. It'll kind of pop up, you know, in a place.

And then all of a sudden you got this. But, you know, and of course, you know, the stereotype is every church in the region. Right, which is just not true. Okay, when they're going to pull out the snakes, you know. You know, it's a very small. Do you think, and I have a religious background for sure, it seems like maybe early on, and I don't know, I haven't seen these documentaries, these newer ones about snake. I don't know a lot about it.

I mean, perhaps maybe there was some genuine. inside of it maybe at one time and then at least what I see portrayed feels like some of the newer stuff is kind of sensationalism like like purposeful sensationalism and I'm I'm putting judgment on people and things I don't know about but I mean do you think that would be true yeah and I think partly you know the conditions that made it meaningful to people are not as come okay and so yeah And it is a way, you know, if you want to attract attention to yourself, it's definitely a way to do it. And there are always, you know, some documentary and it wants to come film you or reporter that wants to do a story on it, you know. And particularly when, you know, when somebody dies, you know.

And, you know, their cause to being involved, because most of the famous people ended up dying from a snake pie. Even though they may have been bit like George Hansley eventually dies from snake. But even though he'd been bit dozens, if not more, at a time. How does that fit with all that you know of Appalachian culture? Does that just like fit in? Or is that just such a small, minor thing that it's kind of irrelevant? Does that, is that a fair question? Yeah, I think there are some things.

Again, you know, the appeal, as you might think, you know, is limited to a certain, I don't know, I guess a certain personality or something, but I think there are some things in the region that do kind of lend itself to that. And part of it, there's a strong dose in a lot of Southern Appalachian religion of fatalism that plays into that. There's a part of something

that if you're in really bad circumstances, like my life is pretty confining and drab and tragic in some ways, but here is a way that I can, can transcend all that. You know, it's hard to imagine what the, you know, most people can't imagine it, I don't think, you know, but what the emotions of that would be. You know, it would be a powerful thing.

And so I think the material conditions of the region do, you know, did, at least, you know, I think feed into that. Appalachia is a fascinating and beautiful place with a diverse mix of incredible people and families that have been crafted by a complicated history, there are people with a journey tied close to the land. Honestly, every place on earth has such a story, and they're all important stories. I find myself often rooting for the underdog,

for the piece of the story that's untold, or for the people who are misunderstood, or the people whose story isn't always told correctly. I can't tell all those stories. But maybe the ones I do tell can spur us to dig deeper into the stories of those all around us. I continue to stand on the premise that our appreciation of our own culture makes us more likely to value the culture of another. In closing, I believe that an authentic connection to the land helps define part of our humanity, whether it be through bear hunting with hounds or farming tomatoes like Mr. Roy,

or simply by going on a hike where you live and taking a moment to be formally amazed at the architecture and complexity of a tree. However you do it, I hope it will cause you to ponder your own significance on this planet. Long live the regional cultures of this incredible place called planet Earth. Hey, please leave us a big fat review on it. iTunes and tell all your pals about this here podcast. Thanks. On Blood Trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road.

I instantly thought it was a sleeping bag. And there was a full of blood. Oh my God, he doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors, where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush, and silence. Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper.

From cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th.

Follow now on Apple, IHeart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.