Bear Grease - Ep. 104: Bear Grease [Render] - Confidence Men, Missouri Turkeys, and Fried Catfish

Episode Date: April 26, 2023

On this episode of the Bear Grease Render, the crew convenes in Missouri for some spring turkey hunting. Clay Newcomb is joined by veteran Meateater videographers Loren Moulton and Dave Gardner as well as Brent Reaves, who you can now hear every Friday on this same feed on his new podcast This Country Life. The crew recaps the triumphs and pitfalls of chasing those wisened longbeards in the spring woods before turning their attention to Forest, or should we say Asa, Carter’s “The Education of Little Tree.” The crew discusses how remarkable it is that Asa Carter was able to pull off this deception, whether or not this was an arc of repentance and redemption or if it was just a con, and the decision to give this to their kids to read or not. I really doubt you’re gonna wanna miss this one… Connect with Clay and MeatEater Clay on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube Shop Bear Grease MerchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new field. Worldware Gear at firstlight.com. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called The Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast. Presented by FHF Gear, American Made, Purpose Built, Hunting and Fishing Gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. Welcome to the Bear Grease Render podcast where we break down the actual Bear Grease podcast, our documentary style audio podcast, that is in-depth, research, polished, produced, intriguing stories.

How about that? Rural American life. And on the Bear Greas Render, we gather around an eclectic group of people. to discuss the previous week's podcast. So welcome to all you new people. I have with me today, Brent Reeves, Lauren Moulton of meat eater,

longtime meat eater videographer. Howdy. And Big Dirty Dave Gardner, also pretty long time videographer of meat eater. Great to have everybody. Great to be here. How does it feel to be here? It feels wonderful,

especially when you have freshly killed the big old Missouri turkey. Yes. Yes. We're going to get into that. 10-4. Brett was telling me just a minute ago, he was singing a song, and I asked him how many live concerts he's been to in his life. Give me the top three best concerts that you've ever been to.

Oh, my gosh. I would have to say, Whalen Jennings. When and where? 1982, Pine Bluff Convention Center. Pine Bluff, Arkansas. Wow. the Eagles When the Eagles came back

90 something I don't remember Okay But that was at War Memorial Stadium In Little Rock Okay Eagle So Wayland Jennings, Eagles Number three

I'm gonna ask you guys this Gosh Number three Maybe Tom Petty man Tom Petty When did you see Tom Petty? When did you see Tom Petty? I saw Tom Petty the last year

He was touring I may be partly responsible for and dying but Tom Petty's dead is a hammer okay he is okay now tell me about

I asked Brent if he'd ever been if he'd ever seen Elvis and he said no we had the chance to see him a year before he died and tickets were 11 dollars and mama said she couldn't afford

to tow to all of us so we didn't get to go okay but I'm thinking she could have left everybody home with me and her how old were you I would have been, I would have been 11. 11. Okay.

Cool. Lauren. Yeah, that's cool. Live concerts. Have you been to some live concerts? Yeah. Top two. As I was a younger guy, I went to a lot of concerts.

And then I've worked the concert scene through the last 15 years. Worked it through. What's that mean? We had a venue at the brewery that I worked at. So we had tons of big names come through there. Crosby, Stills, Nash, 50 cent. widespread panic, I don't know, millions of December, a ton of concerts.

But if you're asking me favorites, I don't know, man, this is going to shed some light on me. Uh-oh. I'll just, I don't know if I can pinpoint favorites. Favorites is hard, but first show I ever saw was Steve Miller band. That was pretty cool. I think I was about 14 years old. Okay.

Then I saw Eric Clapton and Stevie Ray Bond's last show there at Elpine Valley, Wisconsin. that was pretty incredible. Went to a bunch of Grateful Dead shows when I was in high school. Okay. That was fun. Dave. So they say. I don't remember it.

The best concert I've ever meant to, it was probably, I don't remember it much. Because I was, I think I was only three years old. Oh, wow. Two or three. Okay. And my parents were real into country music. and Garth Brooks came to the state fair. My parents had me decked out.

I was reeling to Garth at the time. Parents decked me out and, you know, a little cowboy uniform. And we had like really good seats, like fifth or sixth row. Some lady gave me a rose to give to Garth. And my parents put me on the shoulders some bodyguard that was about seven feet tall. And he walked me up to the stage and everybody's like giving Garth gifts and stuff. and I hand him this rose, and he waves to somebody on the side of the stage,

and the guy brings out a guitar. He signs it and gives it to me. No way. Yeah. Yeah, that's the deal. You still got it? This feels like a setup for Dave to tell that story. It wasn't at all.

Man, my wife would kill for that guitar. Yeah, well, it's for sale. You know, if anybody wants to buy it. Are you serious? I got some student loans. I got to pay, you know, for the right price. So when you were three years old, decked out in your western wear.

Yep. Garth Brooks gave you a sign of guitar. Yes, sir. That's money. Yep. Still at my parents' house. Is it for real for sale? I'd sell it for the right price.

Right. Give me a ballpark. Garth's got to retire, though. You know, I think he's probably still giving out guitar, so. Okay. Got to make sure he's retired. I mean, are we looking at 10 grand plus? Probably.

Yeah. Okay. Whatever it is, I'm going to have to make payments on. Would you take nine? I don't know Probably not Probably wouldn't take nine Well would you sell it for 20

Probably So we're looking Okay folks Between 10 and $20,000 You're talking specifically to my wife So you might as well say Alexis instead of folks Okay

Oh Highest bidder That's good That's good So Later we're going to talk about The new The New Burger series

Called Con Man That's the direction that we're going. But before we get there, Brent Reeves, longtime, a long time, long time,

Barry Grie Strinder guy and a friend of mine, you have a new meat eater podcast out. Is that crazy? It is crazy. What were they thinking? Yeah.

Yeah, this country life with me. Brent Reeves. Brent Reeves. Yeah. So tell us what this country life is about. Well,

it's going to be about just hunting fishing, just general country living. Everything that goes on, if it can be thought of, or it's happened in rural America, it's on the list, and it's fair game. And we're going to be talking about that. And we're going to be talking about things that will, air quotes, help you beat the system. So tell me the structure of the podcast, because it's great.

I love the structure of it. It'll start out with, like, I'm going to do a little intro and talk about, tell folks what we're going to talk about in the main subject. And then I'm going to tell a story, like a five-minute story, something that happened in my life to me or about me or someone I know. And it may relate to the subject we're talking about. It may not. It may just be a story I like to tell.

And then we'll get into the main subject and get that covered. The whole thing's going to last about 20 minutes. So it's a very short listen. And it's a monologue. It's a monologue with the Brent. And it's going to cover country skills. So when you listen to it, you're going to gain a country skill. But you're also going to get a lot of great stories, and it's funny.

It's not a comedy bit, but it's designed to be funny, entertaining stories that teach you a country skill that will help you beat the system. Yeah, and they're all true. Not making up any of it. It all happened to me or someone I know. I think we should go ahead and tell them what some of the episodes are. I think we can leak that information. What do you think? Sure.

Some of them be like how to train a how to pick out a squirrel dog. Where you go to do that. How to catch catfish on a trotland. So one episode is how to train a squirrel dog. So that's what you'll see, how to train a squirrel dog. Yeah. But when you listen to it, you're going to hear us some great, A couple of unique stories about Brent's life in the squirrel dog world and his dad's stories.

And then he's going to go into how to find a squirrel dog, how to train it. You know, I've had a habit. I can remember everything but math. And in anything time that we're talking, you and I are talking, I'll remember a story. I'll be reminded of a story. And then we go off on a tangent and I'll tell a five-minute story about something that happened. That's more or less how that thing's going to. to go.

I'm going to start out with the story. Then we're going to start with the subject. Then we'll start with the subject. And what we're going to talk about, say it's finding a squirrel dog, where you go to do that. And I'm going to give you the tips on how to do that. And then through there, I'm going to throw in some anecdotal stuff that has happened to me or my dad or my friends or something that will relate to it. Yeah. So another episode is how to run a trot line.

So country skills. You need to know how to run a trot line. there's a podcast on duck camp etiquette so how to handle yourself if you're in the duck camp because brent was a outfitter for 26 years right there's a podcast on what a country man needs to carry in his pockets and it's a whole podcast is about what you have in your pockets very interesting um we have a podcast about how to buy a pickup truck Lauren, one day your son is going to be like, he's going to need a truck. Dad, I need a truck. And if he listens to this podcast, he's going to have a leg up on knowing the ins and outs, the way people treat their trucks, the way they handle selling a truck, and this is going to give him a skill that he's going to need.

All right. Very valuable. Okay. So, yeah, that's the kind of stuff it is, but it's fun. It's a lot of fun. And so. And if you subscribe to Bear Grays, you're automatically going to get it. Yeah, it's on this feed.

So if you're listening to this, you're subscribed, most likely, to the Bear Greece podcast feed, and it'll be on there. Yep. So this is, this is big news. It'll be a lot of fun. Big news, big news. Soon it might be Bear Greece on the, this country life feed. Yeah.

Yeah. That's probably what's going to happen. Probably what's going to happen. Brent, how do we come up with a name of this country life? Do you remember? We were sitting in a restaurant. We were sitting at Herman's Steakhouse in Fayetteville, Arkansas. In Fayetteville, Arkansas, you, Misty and my wife, Alexis.

Checker, Tablecloths. This place is a famous steakhouse. It's in Fayetteville, Arkansas. Fayetteville's a nice town. You would drive past Hermans, and you would think that it was an abandoned building. Yeah, it looks like a bomb shelter. It's an old house that sets in a part of town that has, now been developed, but then there's just this old house sitting on the road.

And they've actually fixed it up a lot from what it was like 20 years ago. Yeah, it's been a staple for people going to Razorback games for years and years. You would think that you would drive past it and it's clear that it was once a residential house and now all this big stuff has grown up around it and they have, you know, this like neon sign that says Hermann's and the parking lot will just be full of cars. And it's a steakhouse. And you go in there and there's these red table. red checkered tablecloths and they give you saltine crackers and salsa have you ever heard that

before no sir i never have either have you ever had it before harman's is the only place i've ever done they give you a big bowl of fresh salsa and salting crackers like a mexican restaurant would give you chips and salsa sure and then you order steaks and whatnot and missy and i were eating dinner with brent and his wife at hermonds yep at hermonds and then what happened brent well you looked up and said you ought to do a podcast. And I thought, what in the world about? And I said, all I know is just country living is all I know about. And you said, well, there it is right there.

And it kind of evolved from that. Yeah. And then we started putting some stuff together, getting some ideas. And it came together pretty quick. Yeah. Yeah. We had an idea of this country life. And yeah, it all...

I bet the podcast is pretty close. The finished version of it is pretty close to what we developed at that table that night. And I can't take, Misty and Alexis were highly involved in this too. Very much so, very much so. Yeah. It wasn't just me and you. No, they had the ideas about just like the format and the length and whether or not I'd be talking to people or just talking. And it grew from that.

It didn't grow much from that. We just kind of refined it a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, so let us know what you think of the podcast. It's going to come out every Friday. So it's going to be weekly, every Friday. We got a sneak peek on the boat. Yep.

And I thought it was awesome. It was great. You should take a listen. Yeah. Thank you, man. It's a lot of fun doing it. Got a lot of good folks working on it. Yeah.

So we're in Missouri at Turkey Camp. We've come up to a place that Brent has hunted for last 25 years, 35 plus years. Yeah, a long time. You got some family. You got some friends up here that have been kind of like family to you for a long time. Long time, yeah. And this morning you killed a turkey, you and Big Dirty.

We did. Tell me about it. Man, when, as you know, the wind was blowing this morning as hard as it could blow, I think. And on our fourth setup, on the second turkey that we sat down on, we finally got him to hear us. We had snuck into a place in this field where this turkey was, and he was kind of just over a terrace row from us. There was a little bit of topo up here, so it allowed us to get up to the edge to where we thought this turkey was.

And Dave actually slipped up around some cedar trees and looked over that terrace road and see that turkey down in there. This is 920 at that time. And he said he was just gobbling his bird. brains out and he come back and sit down and grabbed the camera and we started calling and we had a lull in the wind enough that I could get some call out to it and he answered and then it was just as fast as he could strut coming to us and he course he seemed to decoy and he came right on in there they had a little boxing match out there and I told day when I shot him you know he was boxing that

jack decoy the bad thing about it is that he went to glory thinking that that Jake killed him That's good. So Lauren and I this morning had a, we should have been in the same situation. We were hunting the edge of a big cornfield. And the birds, they roosted in a spot we didn't think they were. And so we were kind of set up in the timber. They weren't in the timber. They were out on the edge of this cornfield.

So right at daylight, you know, just about fly-down time, we kind of got out and put a decoy out about 20 yards. in the edge of this big field. Two adult goblers and several jakes go out into this cornfield, and they're just around a little hump from us. We can't see them, but they're goblin. And I've got decoys out, and we're on the edge of the timber, and everything's good.

Yeah. And I start calling. They answer, they answer, they answer, they answer. Just the harder I called, the more I called, I was calling them a mouth call, a slate call, the more they got fired up. And sure enough, we just hear them, getting closer and closer, big gobbler.

And finally we see him strutting out there at probably 250 yards. And he sees the decoy and here he comes, just running. And I mean, we just think, well, here we go. Yeah. We've got a half-struck Jake and a sit-down hen. And he sees him and everything's good. And he comes up over the hill and is running. And then, but directly behind him are four Jake's about 50 yards behind him.

And the closer he gets to us, he comes into 100 yards. And I think those jakes spooked him because he stopped and he kind of started looking behind him. And then he cut hard and made a big loop and just kind of disappeared. And those jakes ended up coming in. They didn't come all the way in. But anyway, the more I think about it, Lauren, I think that it's possible. that they saw us. What do you think?

We just didn't like, we were hid pretty good. We were by some fallen logs and whatnot. Yeah, I think we were concealed pretty well. I don't know. I mean, who knows? Could have been anything. But this bird, so the big gobbler peels out,

and then the Jakes come in to probably 100 yards. They're just, and I'm not really trying to call them in, and they kind of fade off. And then we start calling again, and that same gobbler comes back. the jakes are gone and so now he's coming back alone and I think oh good well he'll you got him now he comes back in to 150 yards and stands in the same spot for no less than 25 minutes yeah and just gobbles every time I call every time a crow calls every time another turkey gobbels and just

stands there and watches our decoys for 30 I mean for so long I thought to myself this is going to be is going to take a long time for him to ever get here. And he's still waiting on him, he finally skirted off and around, got on to this other field. We circle all the way around him, like walk probably close to a half mile to get completely the opposite side of him. And I'm losing the Jake, I think he's afraid of the Jake Decoy. That's what I think. So I just stake out the single hen and think, oh, man, he'll come now.

And because I'm on opposite side of him, the way he kind of was. wanting to go. It was great. Called and he gobbled, gobbled, gobbled, gobbled, but never would move an inch. Just sat on the edge of that field just watching where we were and would just gobble at us. And then he just walked away. Bade it away. I don't. There's a hard turkey to kill right there. Two-year-old turkey probably that's been roughed up by Jakes.

I mean, it's on private land, so it's not like he's been messed with. We're the first people to hunt that place this year. Right. So I can't understand it But yeah These field turkeys I'd rather kill them in the timber man It's hard

It's really hard It's fun to see them It isn't And if you're calling You know a lot of times You know I'm not a fan of decoys But if you're hunting fields You've about got to have them

Yeah Because when they get to where they can see Where they know where that calling is And they can tell within A turkey can tell within a foot Where that racket's coming from And they don't see a hen there Yeah, they ain't coming.

Lots of times they ain't. Yeah, yeah. So we got one more day here. We got one more day. We'll get her done. Yeah. We're going to talk about Tuesday. You don't want to talk about Tuesday, do you?

I wasn't going to embarrass you. You ain't going to embarrass me. Well, go ahead. Tell them. Well, Tuesday morning, it all worked out. Worked out great. Just like we thought it was going to. Had turkey goblin on the roost.

He answered us from the roost. flew down from the roost and we watched him on film walk 250 yards gobbling and strutting every step of the way all the way into 35 yards I'm having a flashback right now and when I pulled the trigger the first time and the second time what's he doing as far as I know, he's still doing it. I think he flew to Mexico. I think he did.

I think we spooked him this morning. Yeah, we walked under one this morning. I mean, on the same limb. So I was up about 30 yards in the woods, let's just say north of Brent, because it was uphill. And the idea was I was going to call a little bit back in the timber, and this bird was going to come through this field. And it worked out incredibly well. couldn't have drawn it up any better. And I would learn that Brent thought I was over-calling way too much.

I was about to have a stroke. I was sitting there and every time, call, he'd just shake his head. I was like, no, stop, no. I was thinking about being miced up, and I thought, well, they're going to listen to this, and I'm just shaking my head, no, no. You know, that's the problem with turkey hunting with people. There are about 100 ways to skin a cat.

And you know who the person that I've hunted with that calls, he would call more than my, if I had a 10 year, a 10 year old Bear Newcomb with a box call. Yeah. You know who that was? You told me this morning. Wilbur Primo. Down there, they say that he'll leave Yelp marks on one after he kills him. Well, you know, that's how they, when they started out, and there's some of their first videos of what they said, you know,

the people are going to say, we call too loud and we call too much. Well, I was raised by or I was mentored by some really, well, Scott Browns really who I would say taught me a lot about turkey ant. Gary Newcomb taught me the foundations of Turkey Henton. But Scott Brown taught me a lot about turkey hunting. And man, he'd rather yelp a three-note yelp and sit there and have him come in. I mean, but we're hunting public land, tough turkeys. And I mean, pretty much, he says, if a turkey knows where you're at, you don't need to be calling to him. Yeah, my brother's dad-in-law, Mr. Billy Bryant, who mentored all of us on how to kill turkeys.

And he's killed a passel of them. It was three yips and let you call down. Yeah. He said, you know, if that turkey ever answers you, you stay at that tree. Sometime during the day, he's going to come by there. Yeah. And he's killed a lot of turkeys, just like that. Well, I knew you thought I was calling too much.

And then word on the street is, I don't call enough. Yeah, I heard that too. Yeah, that's another story. From McGarrey, Hudson, Missouri. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was like, that dude doesn't call enough. Man, I was calling it that turkey like crazy. Yeah, you were Wilbur and Primos this morning.

We did that. We did. Yeah, no, the morning before when our friend was with us. Great guy. Yeah. And so, you know, anyway. me and Dave did that this morning. We were letting it rip.

Yeah. Oh. They seemed to like it. Hey, oh, really. So we had this conversation yesterday because Brent said, you called way too much. And it worked great except for his shooting. Exactly. And then the next day, word on the street was I didn't call enough.

That's all I can say about that. And so Brent was like, what did you say? You, uh, I'm trying to remember how it all went down. Anyway, we were talking about calling. And anyway. About the reason why you call so much up here? Well, somebody told you at the gas station that, oh, you got to call these turkeys up here. Oh, yeah, he did.

I was getting a tire fix. He told me. He said, you got to call these turkeys up here. Well, this morning when those birds were out in that cornfield, I've never called so much of my life. I was calling with two calls at the same time. I wasn't even waiting for one to finish. I mean, they thought something bad was going on up there. and the more I did it, the more they got fired up and came.

Yeah. So, I mean, maybe they're right. There's some truth to it. Yeah. Anyway, so you missed a turkey at 35 yards. We're not exactly sure what happened. No, I think my shotgun's shooting a little low. Well, and you were using some shells that we decided we don't like.

Yeah, I don't like them. I was shooting. I went back to my old favorites this morning. You were shooting some number nine Bismuth. Yeah. And there, it's a real. Tungston. Yeah.

And it was just a, that number nine is a very small pellet. And I mean, you, yeah, anyway, we decided after we, we decided we didn't like that. Yeah. I like the number five's. That's what I went back to this morning and it worked five. Yeah. Good. Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls

in building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts. Now I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use. I'm not going to go, I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen. But when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for. I have a great turkey hunting track record. If you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contests, right? That's who I listen to.

I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps's cut, and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts. Check out Prime Cuts at Phelps gamecalls.com. I think you'll be glad you did, and you'll find out that the Steve Rinella cut is an easy-to-use cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good turkey noises and getting action. Conman. Lauren, what does, so the title of this series is called Conman, and it's about a man named Asa Carter. If you hadn't listened to the podcast, this isn't going to make any sense. You need to go back and listen to the episode titled Con Man, the Education of Little Tree.

And what does Conman mean, Lauren? Conman is a confidence man, short for confidence man. But the definition is a man who cheats or tricks someone by gaining the trust or persuading them to believe something that's not true. Lots of fun little other words that go along with con man. like what was it uh they're all listed here another word crook hustler swindler bunco bilker bilker yeah bilker yeah you ever heard that day i've not like like you bilk somebody out of some money okay you got to watch those old grift a hustle a bunco i'd never heard a bunco either okay Okay.

Swindle, flim, flam, gaffled, bamboozled. Mm. And then the victims of those people are Marks, suckers, stoogs, mugs, rubes, or gulls. Okay. Okay. But Confidence man is kind of the deal. Confidence man. Yeah, so, uh,

Asa Carter, he could have been called a lot of things, but Con Man is a pretty good description of, of what he did. the last part of his life when he became Forrest Carter. And on the next episode, the whole thing is about Forrest Asa Carter. And it's about why he did what he did, some of the details of his life, the details of the ruse. It wasn't just a pen name. And I think that's what this first episode gave a little bit of information on the author of The Education of Little Tree, Forrest Carter, who wasn't Forrest Carter at all, but it was actually Asa Carter.

And then we revealed that Asa Carter was a vehement white supremacist and had a radio broadcast, produced over 100 radio episodes that were very kind of wild, you know, racial stuff. And he had a print publication. He led his own sect of the KKK that was called the original sons of the Confederacy. So it was like, he was like saying, hey, the normal guys. aren't the real deal like we're the real deal and he was a speechwriter for George Wallace which we revealed on the podcast and but he wrote this book under this name Forrest Carter and it wasn't just a pen name we'll learn it wasn't just a pen name he actually turned into Forrest Carter like changed his life change the way

that he talked, changed the way that he dressed, was Forrest Carter to everyone. And then he died when he was 54. But he wrote the education of Little Tree, which is essentially an adolescent book. It's kind of like a where the red fern grows book. And it was really a unique situation that rarely happens in literature, very rare, that a book would posthumously, like after the death of the author, would go on the New York Times bestseller list. So the book was published in 1976 originally, and it just had minimal fame or minimal. It didn't do that well.

I think they printed 5,000 books at some university press, and then the book began to just have this like grassroots exposure, and then it was reprinted in 1988 by somebody else. And then in 1991, it went on the New York Times bestseller list and was put on Oprah Winfrey's book club list. And it was on trajectory to be an American classic, American adolescent classic like where the red fern grows. Kids were reading it in schools all across the country. it was this book that was just full of wisdom, moral lessons, and it was intriguing to read, and it was written by this man that was a Cherokee Indian, it was believed.

And so the story was just fantastic, and people loved it. And then, I'll give you a little spoiler alert, Dr. Dan T. Carter, my guest, on the podcast. No relation. No relation to Asa Carter. You guys thought that was a little confusing. All the Carter's. Carter this, Carter that, which is true.

But Dan T. Carter, I went to his house in North Carolina. Incredible guy. Very, very nice guy. He's 81 years old, sharp as a tack. Like just very, very intelligent, very, you know, he's just, he's just all there. and he is the one who exposed Forrest Carter in 1991

with an op-ed that he wrote in the New York Times and it was like what? Who is this guy? Hold the phone. Yeah, and it was before internet, so it was easier to do that because there was a lot of people that knew people that really knew

Asa Carter, knew what was going on but it's not like they could go on Facebook, book and tell everybody. Oh, you mean it easier to keep it quiet, yeah. Or they were telling, you know, he said that when Barbara Walters in the 1970s interviewed Forrest Carter, which is wild. And there are zero, Dan T. Carter says that there are zero audio recordings or video of that.

Because I asked him, I said, hey, where can I find that? And he said, it doesn't exist. He said back during the 70s, the Good Morning America show, they literally were erasing tape. They would film something, and after a certain period of time, they would erase the tape and reuse it again.

And you can't go on YouTube. I mean, somebody find it. It's not there. But there's no video, because I was going to look at that interview. And it was Forrest Carter, the Cherokee Indian, talking to Barbara Walters. Yeah, that was.

before VCRs, before any of that recording capability at home. Yeah, yeah. And it was there that he, like, Dan T. Carter said that the lines lit up at the Good Morning America show saying, hey, that's not Forrest Carter, that's Asa Carter. And they were just like, no, that's not true. this guy's legitimate and there was no way for them to type it in and check this guy out what do you think of that what do you think of that day it's pretty wild can't have it couldn't happen today

that's for sure what are the implications do you think of uh this is a question to everybody never before have we've never lived in a a world where people had this much access to information I mean, it makes you wonder what kind of stuff has gone on forever before about the year 2000 with people. Anything that anybody could get away with. That's what's gone on. I'm sure it's... Since the first fellow wanted to trick the other one. Yeah, I'm sure it's much, much more difficult to be a confidence man now.

Yeah. Yeah. We're going to do a new show called Modern Con Man. Wild. Well, what stood out to you guys about this episode? So many wild things. And I'm talking a lot here. You know, the section of the speech from George Wallace,

I debated on putting that in there. I asked a couple of people if I should put it in there. And they were like, yeah, put it in there. Yeah, it's a historical reference. I mean, it's history. Yeah. I mean, it's historical. And this is, these are tales that need to, things that need to be talked about and discussed.

Yeah. I'll tell you what I got from that, from the first part. Now, I think it'll only be solidified by the second part. Obviously, I hadn't heard it yet. But people, for that guy to be, to live that double life, for him to write such a poignant story and touching heartfelt story, people are inherently good and they choose to be. bad. He chose to hate other races other than his own.

He chose to be that way. But he obviously had something inside him that would fuel that story, his mind to be able to create such a great story. And it was a great story. That's a great way to say it. It is. Yeah, I agree. And the big question in my mind the whole time was, is are they seeking some sort

of redemption? Like, are you in repentance for all the negative things that you were doing in before? Because he wasn't the only one, right? I mean, Wallace kind of repented after as well. Yeah. So you're saying... And took back a lot of his... Yeah, he's trying to, like, fix his wrongs, right?

So you're saying, a question in your mind is, was Forrest Carter, quote unquote, the way for Asa Carter to repent for what he did? A little bit, yeah. I mean, to go as far as... changing your identity and talking differently and pretending to be someone completely different. You're looking to get rid of that past life. Yeah. So that's the question that we're going to talk about on the next episode a lot. Because so where this came from was when Steve Ronella listened to our Where the Red Fern's Grows podcast,

where we talked about Wilson Rawls, who was this incredible author of Where the Redfern grows. He was kind of a one-hit wonder author. And he, in the research, I've found that he had gone to prison more than once. That was wild. And that was not talked about when that book came out. It was not talked about at all. And the crimes were minor. I mean, it was not, it was larceny of domestic stock, domestic chickens.

Yeah. Which that may not be the full story. You typically don't send someone to prison for stealing chickens. And then there was an armed, not armed, but there was some burglary. So, you know, I mean, it was clear the guy had a rough early life. It was when he was in his 20s. But then he ends up writing this book. And so the question was, was this book a way for him to kind of fix his past?

And it seemed possible. this one, I don't want to give away too much, but it's way more complicated when you hear the whole story. And that's why it's called a con man. Right. And not redemption man. Because it gets pretty wild. It gets pretty wild, the more you look into it, you know.

But that is a great question. Great question. What stood out to you, Lauren, about the podcast? It was a giant twist. You know, I wasn't anticipating that he was part of the K. KKK, you know, that was, what are you talking about? Like, how do you bridge the gap from an author, a Cherokee, supposed Cherokee nations to KKK? What are you talking about? Yeah. Yeah, it is a wild twist, isn't it? Wild twist. Yeah. And you got to wonder about the motivations.

Like, I don't, you know, like, everybody's got their, their motivations. So that was the big takeaway. What in the world motivated this guy? And, you know, obviously it was a pretty well-renowned writer ahead of time. He was writing speeches. So movies. Yeah. Yeah. It's mind-blowing.

Yeah, that was crazy. Yeah, were you expecting that? No. So he wrote The Outlawed Josie Wales, which he titled his book, Gone to Texas. but Clint Eastwood took the book and turned it into a movie called the Outlaw Josie Wales and that was Clint Eastwood's breakout movie

which is wild because to be a screenwriter and to write a movie and he didn't write the movie but to have a book made into a movie is a big deal there was presumably a fair bit of money he made from that and then

but the outlawed Josie Whale is an interesting story because the protagonist, the guy that you can't help but love is a Confederate soldier. Do you remember the story, Brent? Did you ever watch that movie? The movie?

Yeah, 100 times. Do you remember the story? Yeah. I remember the story, yes. Basically, it's the end of the Civil War and there is like one band of Confederates that are hiding out that haven't given up

and the Union Army is trying to hunt down these rebels. And there's a, the captain comes to all these Confederate rebels and says, hey guys, the war is over. Like, we've got to give ourselves up. If we give ourselves up to this camp down here, everything's going to be okay. They're going to let us go.

It's not going to be a big deal. Right. And all the guys agree to go. except for Josie Wales. And, you know, he's like, I ain't going. And while all those guys go down there, and it turns out it's a trap. Yeah.

The Confederate general that all these guys trusted had been paid off, and they go down there, and rather than giving them, what do you call it when you're forgiven of crimes? Clemency. Rather than giving them clemency, they kill them.

They kill all these guys. And Josie Wales is up in the mountains, and he hears the gunfire, and he sees what's happening, and he goes down. And anyway, the whole thing is this Confederate soldier that, you know, has been burned by the system and everybody cheated him, and he goes into Comanche country.

So, and it's always about hating the establishment. That was, that's in everything the AESA touched, was that the government will burn you. and oh it gets so wild in this next episode because you're going to see how that fits back into this deep racism that he he bought into it'll all make sense but Dave what's said out to you about it I thought yeah I mean

I had the same question these guys was this is was in this looking for redemption but the story with I'm Totally spacing on the guy's name now who had the key to the songbox. Coon Jack. Coon Jack. Yeah. And I wonder if in a way, like, he was trying to use Coon Jack as like a metaphor for himself.

Tell us about Coon Jack. He, you know, he had been fighting his whole life. This was a story that the, this is inside the book, the education of little bit. Yes. The grandfather was telling Little Tree, who's the little grandson, a story from his childhood, and he tells a story of this old man named Coon Jack. So go ahead then. Yeah, and Coon Jack had been fighting his whole life and now was just...

And the end of it was, you know, you have to know someone. Or he loved him after that because he knew who he was. Right. You know, knew where he came from. and kind of understood him. And so, and that was the whole, yeah, trying to put that thought together now. You know, so then it was really interesting that he put that in there being a, this clan leader, right? Like, you have to know somebody to love him.

And then, like, so it was just like, I wonder if Coon Jack was kind of a metaphor for himself, but then also, like, yeah, some real interesting things going on. Coon Jack basically grew up in the Civil War and then the government took his land and he stayed and fought for his land. And so Cun Jack is this old man embittered that wants to fight everybody and he wants to fight the, he pulls a, he basically shows a pistol at church when the guys, he said there have been people talking bad about him. About the songs he picked out. He had the key to the songbook box. and so Coon Jack flashes a pistol in church and says, hey, I'll use this on anybody that says I'm doing this wrong. And Grandpa's dad, Little Tree's great-grandfather, stands up and just smooths the situation over, gives a lot of dignity to Coon Jack and says, we're so sorry, you've done a fantastic job at the songbook box, you keep doing it. And the way that he handles it with such wisdom and grace and empathy is pretty touching.

And that's why it's so wild to read all this stuff from written by Asa Carter. Because this guy, I mean, I couldn't have made up that story that would have shown the deep intricacies of somebody that's really broken and hurt. And a very understanding, empathetic response to that brokenness that actually should help the broken person. because the great-grandfather stands up and goes, Coon Jack, you're doing a great job. We love you. And then great-grandpa, it's kind of confusing,

but basically the old man then tells the young boy, we love people, you can only love someone if you understand them. So this is what's going on with Coon Jack, and we love him. And it's like... And he made the statement that, that, you know, why did he get so upset over that?

And he said the key to the songbox is all he has. has. Yeah. So that was his, that was his reason for being, his, his focus in life and something that he could call his own and have, have power over it because he, he lost his land. He lost the war, you know, everything, he had lost everything his whole life. And, you know, it would be different if this was a true story, but this cat made all that stuff up. Yeah. That's, that's what gets me. Yeah. That, I mean, a beautiful way to explain something like that. Yeah. In the book, I was, the hardest part of a podcast like this is trying to find,

you know, I can't read the whole book on the podcast. Right. That would have been cool if just every single person that listened to this podcast had read the whole book. Couldn't happen. So, so I just cherry picked maybe like four or five sections to read that that stood out to me. If you'd have read it, Brent, I promise you wouldn't have picked the ones that I picked. Like those weren't even the high points. Yeah.

Because when I interviewed Steve Ronella, who's a guest on the podcast and a main player on the next podcast too, he was talking about stuff that I didn't even remember. In our talk, he would go, but what about the story about that? And I'd be like, oh, I forgot about that. Like, you know, so you just pick up on different things. And so I was just trying to like highlight these places where you see that this author was connected authentically. to human nature and what appeared to be really genuine love and empathy for people.

And I mean, there's our wild question is how do you get access to that? I thought it was such a great, to me, it made sense because Steve said when he reads the book

the things about nature, it's full of really great stuff. Fox hunting, you know, they trap turkeys. There's a lot of stuff about nature. and the mountains and predation and the way.

I read the part about the way on the podcast. There's a section called The Way. And the Way is the Cherokee descriptor of the way of life. And he talks about how the hawk catches the slow quail so that the slow quail doesn't make more slow quail, so only the fast quail survive. and then the hawk most of the time catches the mice and the rodents that raid the nests of the quail. And so Talcon, the hawk, it actually helps the quail.

And that's the way. The way he talks to Little Tree about whitetail deer management, which totally goes against what we would do today. But he told Little Tree to not shoot the biggest deer, but to shoot the smaller, weaker deer. let the big ones go. He said, only take what you need. And he said, the reason there are wars and their strife in the world is because people

take more than they need and they spend their lives trying to protect the excess. And he said, if people only took what they needed, we wouldn't have all these problems in the world. Who can argue with that? And they call that the way. And then this is like a right. thing that when you see it, you're just like, you want it. Little Tree says, and I knew that Grandpa and I knew something that most people didn't.

He always was throwing that in there, that they just kind of had this thing, that like they had this thing figured out, and the rest of the world didn't. And so Steve had said, I'm kind of on a rabbit trail there, but in that as Asa Carter described the natural world. Steve was like, that guy had been in the mountains. That guy had been fox hunting. That guy had plowed with a mule. That guy had grown corn.

That guy had picked ripe watermelons to understand what they're ripe. That guy had made moonshine or been around moonshine. And he said, that was authentic. Well, when I read the stuff about empathy and human nature, it's like this guy was deeply in touch more probably than most more than me with with with how people operate which is therein lies the question it's kind of fascinating who is this guy why was he so crazy how could he do that how was he connected to that kind of authenticity but still connected with all this wild stuff he was very intriguing very intriguing yeah for sure and then how do we grapple with that today

right like how do we take that book today and like do we just blacklist it or do we you know take the book for what it is but you know recognize that it's not autobiographical and it was and who was it was it look at who it was written by so yeah so what do you think Dave if you had kids would you let your kids read it knowing what you know I mean yeah probably but You know, I'd like to wait until they're maybe a little bit older. And then they can kind of, so you can kind of understand and start to explain some of the complexities of it. Yeah.

You know, explain like who this guy was and what this book is and what it's not. Yeah. You know, it's not a historical piece. It's not, but it's a story and it has good lessons in it. But this guy that wrote it did some terrible things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, what about you, Lauren? What do you think?

That's a good question, you know. Do you tell them who the author really was? Do you give them the book and just have them experience it for what it is and don't say anything? Yeah. You know? I mean, and maybe later bring that up or share the podcast with them so that that is their education and enlightenment after reading the book. Yeah. You know, I don't know. Yeah. What do you think, Brent? Well, to me, a good story is a good story. and I don't have to buy into his politics or his philosophy on life or his judgment of other people's. If that story is a good story and entertaining, I don't care who wrote it.

Because I don't go anything further than the last page. That's the time to put that book down and pick up another one. To me, that is. And I wouldn't have any problem at all reading it to my children. because anything that if that book is the way you say it is and I trust your judgment that it's a poignant story about life of a little person it's fictional it's not made out to be autobiographical that I is that correct well it's he wrote it as like based on a true story okay well kind of one of those deals then then then then I would start the book off that this is not true

This is just a fun story, and we're going to read it. Sweetie, I want you to read this book. It was written by a con man. The Bear Grease podcast. Yeah. That's how I look at it. You know, the bigger question we get into the second episode, you should have just skipped this render and listen to the second episode of people.

But we talk about, does character matter? Because the bottom line is that in some point, places it does. In some places... Sure. Well, the character matters everywhere. What I'm saying is, could you get something from a source that lacked character? Because the book standing alone, and somebody might read it and have problems with something, you know, that other people wouldn't.

I mean, you know, it's not like I buy into the cosmology of the Native Americans. I mean, that's their stories and stuff, just about the creation of the earth and all this stuff. Like, I'm not getting behind that. But what I am saying is that the book is legitimately got some great stuff in it. But there are places in life where you don't want anything from something that comes from a very flawed source. And we're going to talk about that kind of stuff on the next podcast. Lots of foreshadow them.

Lots of foreshadowing on this one. Lots of foreshad. But no, I would let my kids read the book. Now, whether I would tell them about it right away or not, I don't know. Because it's so hard to read the book, and I've spoiled it for everyone, but it's so hard to read the book with this knowledge and really take in the book as you would if you knew nothing. Right. If you didn't know anything, you just read it, you would, you would, my book. come away with with different conclusions about it.

But nobody was, you don't be mad at me because you weren't going to read this book in 2023 because that's a joke. You're supposed to laugh. Clay, it was on my book list. No, it wasn't. Say something funny. It was the blacklisting of that book when Oprah took it off her book list in 2007 and when, which was years after it came out.

which was kind of interesting. It took a while for it to, like, trickle through the world. It, people just haven't read it. And so I, on the podcast, talked to Steve about how I had a difficult time finding an academic person that would talk to me. Now, Dan T. Carter talked to me about Asa Carter. But Dan T. Carter is not necessarily an expert on the book, The Educational Literature. Typically, you can find an academic expert on a piece of literature. For instance, on where the red fern grows, I interviewed a guy at the University of Arkansas that was like, heck yeah, this is in my field of literature, you know, have students read this book. Yes, I will talk to you. We sent out emails everywhere and just got nothing from anybody. And at first, well, the one person that did respond said, hey, you know this book has been blacklisted, right? And I was like, yeah, that's why I want to talk about it. And, um,

But so I couldn't understand if people didn't want to do it because it was blacklisted or if because it was blacklisted, nobody read it and knew about it. There's two reasons why people wouldn't have emailed me back. You understand? Did you resolve that in any fashion? No. No. None.

And it's totally anecdotal because, you know, there'll probably be people that write in and be like, well, I'm a literature professor and would have been glad to have talked to you. But the typical amount of work that we put in, into trying to find the best sources for interviewees about topics. And we do. Me and Isaac, we put a lot of work into finding really great guests. We could not find,

on this one, we were like scratching our heads. Steve was actually like option B. Steve Rinella was like the B team. I was like, well, okay, Steve. Go ahead.

No, and he was fantastic. It was Steve's idea originally this podcast. Steve read this book back in college, and then he, he, after listening to Where the Red Fern Grows, said, hey, you ought to do one on educational literature. I didn't know about the book.

Steve knew about the book. You'd never heard of it. I'd never heard of it. And, no, Steve was great, man. He re-read the book, and so he was coming hot off of rereading the book. He did better than an academic, well, Steve is a literary,

I'd call him a literary expert in most. most types of literature he's able to critique it and so anyway he was fantastic well guys closing thoughts looking forward to the next episode if if there is a bigger twist coming in the second episode as there wasn't the first if it was three episodes i wouldn't be able to take it wouldn't be able to take it yeah that was it was cool it's definitely got me hooked and wanting to listen to the second. Great. I'd like to read the book, too.

Yeah. Yeah. I wonder, is it hard to find? No. You get by it on Amazon. It's going to be on the New York Times best seller list again. Again. Because of the Barry's podcast.

No, shoot, man. They're giving them away for free on paperback, man, on Amazon. I bet. $4.99. We're trying to liquidate these things. Well, hey, listen to. this country life with Brent Reeves. It's going to be great.

You've already heard one episode that's come out before this one, but it's going to be every Friday to be able to hear it. Thank you guys for listening to the bear grease render, and we'll see you next time. Let's go eat some catfish. Yeah, we're about to fry some catfish and turkey breasts. Get the grease hot. Yehow.

Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls and building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts. Now, I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use. I'm not going to go, I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen. But when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for. I have a great turkey hunting track record. If you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contests, right?

That's who I listen to. I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps's cut, and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts. Check out Prime Cuts at Phelps Game Calls.com. I think you'll be glad you did, and you'll find out that the Steve Ronella cut is an easy-to-use cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good turkey noises and getting action. This is an I-Heart podcast, Guaranteed Human.