Bear Grease - Ep. 108: Bear Grease [Render] - Death of the Author

Episode Date: May 10, 2023

On this week’s episode of the Bear Grease Render, Clay Newcomb is joined by Josh “Landbridge” Spielmaker, Brent Reaves, Malachi Nichols, Ben Lagrone, and Misty Newcomb. The crew discusses Josh��s new fly fishing boat, Brent’s successful new podcast “This Country Life” and Misty’s recent doctorate. Clay then recounts taking Banjo the Mule to be trained by an Amish family before turning the discussion to Asa “Forest” Carter, a KKK leader, speech writer for Gov. George Wallace, and Conman, and his fraudulently labeled semi-autobiography “The Education of  Little Tree” whose themes of love and empathy run counter to the author’s prior life’s work of hate and division. The crew dive’s further into the “death of the author” perspective of interpretation, the themes of redemption, possible mental illness, and the literal death of the author. I really doing you’re gonna wanna miss this one… Connect with Clay and MeatEater Clay on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube Shop Bear Grease MerchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new field. Worldware Gear at firstlight.com. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called the Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast. Presented by FHF Gear, American Made, Purpose Built, Hunting and Fishing Gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. Welcome to the Bear Grease podcast, everyone.

Take one. We have a great group of people here today. The Bear Grease render podcast is what this is, where we talk about and discuss the past documentary style Bear Grease podcast. I was asked recently why I would need to tell people that. And I told the people that people come in by the droves. Yes, they do. by the droves. They come in by the droves.

And so we have to continue to tell people what they're listening to. And even more complicated now in the Bear Grays feed, we have Brent Reeves, this country life podcast. That's good. All right. Living large, man. That's so much fun. Yeah, man.

Get some good feedback, too. It's really cool. Yeah. So you've done three, yeah, you've done three episodes. So what were the episodes about? Well, the first one was just an introduction to me and just kind of like who I am. that people would have been a little more in depth than what they would have got just listening to me ramble on

on here and the second one I think it was about man you gotta tell me I'm gonna blank yeah oh yeah the second one was also a little bit about more about me about the stuff that I tote in my pockets and why I may be why I do that and the last one

the most recent one that's out right now is about turkey hunting mentor mentors that influenced me growing up and some lessons I learned from those folks and been really good been a lot of fun good so a lot of you probably would have heard this country life with Brent Reeves but it's usually about 20 minutes long it's a monologue it's it's a little bit of comedy a little bit of instruction a lot of fun it's lighthearted a tear every now and then a tear will stream down your cheek every now and then and the way the way that I have described it and maybe I've described it on this part

podcast before. If anybody had fault with the Bear Grease podcast, they could say that it's like a heavy listen. Like you have to work at it. I remember when we first did Bear Grease. It's exhausting. Yeah. One of the guys, my dear friends at Meteor was like, I mean, it's like a pretty heavy listen. Like you actually have to like it's not just easy listening music, you know, quote unquote. No Kenny G here. Yeah. And I would say this country, like, life is easy listening.

Not that it's light. Is he the Kenny G. You ain't going to hear any. It's like the Kenny G of Baggers. You'll hear some Wayland Jail in there, maybe, but no Kenny J. I think if Steve Rinala is the Julia Childs. The Campfire.

The Campfire. Perse, CBS. Britton Reeves is the Garrison Keller. Oh, that's good. Of the Wilderness Podcast. Okay, tell us who Garrison Keller is. Okay. Gerson Keeler.

Keeler. Keeler. Oh, did I say it? Keeler. Garrison Keeler. There's a pronunciation. Proven. Well, there's someone.

Runs in the family. He did a, spoiler alert. He did a radio show. He did a radio show called the Prairie Home Companion. Yeah. We're all the Lake Wobagon. Yep. Yeah.

And so that's, that's. All the women are strong. All the men are good looking and all the children are above average. Yeah, that's right. Yes. Well, this country life has been really great. So, Brent. Thanks, buddy.

Good job, man. What did you tell the guy that asked you, what the next week's podcast was going to be about? I told him it was a two-parter. The first part was Nunio and the second part was Bizz. He was trying to get some inside information. You can go to prison for that. Absolutely.

So we don't know what the next episode is. I know what it's about. It's going to be good. So the guests we have today, we have Ben LaGrohn, who has been here several times, longtime friend of mine, former history team. future.

Uh-huh. Yeah. Current childbirth, childbirth, influencer. Yeah. Formerly. I mean, we're laughing. Influencer. That would be like if I said, I'm a podcaster and all y'all went,

yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I just tell people I work for the internet. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good. Balance families. Yeah.

Great. And to your left is my wife, Dr. Misty Nookam. There it is. Dr. Misty. And I think we need to clarify. Not that I care and not that you ever need to call me Dr. Misty Newcomb again, but

there's a lot of people on the internet right now that think that Clay got the PhD. You made it look so easy. So Misty made a post the other day. And what threw it off was the picture. We were at her defense of her dissertation. And we were there with our whole family. And I took like a, just like a selfie. Big prominent.

I was the cell. I was the one holding the camera out. And so I'm up close and the family's back a little bit. And that was the only picture we had. And so Misty posted that and said, I got my, I got my PhD. I finished it. And the internet lit up. And my phone lit up.

People like, man, that's so great, Clay. We had no idea that you were even working out. Here's a prime example of how people look at that. I can't remember what grade he was in, but probably all of them. But at least once a year a teacher would give you a test that said, okay, follow these directions. Start at the beginning, read them all the way through. You probably did this, Ben, and then do what the directions say. Well, like 15, 20 minutes in, I'm working.

I read about half the directions, and I'm working my behind off. And I try to look in three-quarters of everybody's sitting there staring at the ceiling, looking out of the window. I hated it when they did this. Or getting up and walking out of the room. I'm like, galley, I've got to hurry up. And if I just read the last line was like, do the first three problems, then you can go home. But I didn't do that.

Yeah. So, read the fine print. Like it was a punishment for people who were, you know, motivated and driven. Like those, I always felt like the teacher was trying to trick us, like to say read all the directions first. And then it was a mistake to do all the work. That's the reason I can't go to the IKEA store. I am not reading those directions, buddy.

You can get lost. Well, we'll come back to this. I just need to get through introductions here. I want to talk to you about your Ph.D. and what it's in. But to your left, we have coming back from, it's been a while since he's been here. Dr. Malachi Nichols.

That's right. Man, it's one of the original Bear Greas. We're out number, Judge. Render people. Oh, gee. Yeah, it's good to be here. Doctors everywhere. Doctors.

Yeah. You have to schedule Malachi. Like, his people only let him come here like, like twice a year and you have to get on the schedule to get him here but it's good to have you let's talk about August

when we end yeah 2025 and I'm still interested in a boat partner hey my boys are getting older that I would consider it more than a

really okay back on the table my son is like in love with outdoors And so let's talk in November, 2026. November 2026. Okay.

All right. That's cool. That's cool. And Josh Landbridge spillmaker, who is now a boat owner and a captain. That's right. Captain Landbridge of the SS Landridge. What kind of boat did you get? It is a trout fishing boat specially designed for our White River Tailwaters, 21 foot long,

48 inch bottom, a 72 inch wide beam with a jet motor on the back. Nice. Pretty slick. What brand of boat is it? It is an AAF. So AAF was a brand of boats

was made in Mountain Home. Awesome. Back in the early 2000, late 90s, early 2000s. Did your cool trout boat come with that Flatbill hat? Nope. Yeah, you just got that on the round. Hats sold separately. Josh always has the coolest hat.

He does. It's true. It's true. It looks good now. Yeah. I got to do something. I wear a beard because what's under the beard is not that great looking and I wear a hat just to cover as much as possible. There you go.

Well, hey. Brett, I asked Josh about taking his boat down to the big rivers of the south for us to go catfishing. Sure. And he said. He said he'd do it. Of course. Really? Heck yes.

Oh, we're in, man. Hey, someone else got a boat. And that's Bear John. Yeah, our son got a boat. We sometimes talk about how Bear uses my Facebook account. to purchase and sell items. And all my friends think that my, because he doesn't have Facebook.

Misty's really into frog gigging right now. Yeah, really into fraud. And he's constantly like selling machine parts. And it's kind of funny because the boat, I don't think, has gone out into the water yet. But it's been the focal point of a lot of activity at the Newcomb farm, including with your son, Josh. Yeah.

Almost every other night, there's a group of like five or six boys here, or young men who are working on something on that boat. And we really thought it was going out on the water this weekend. and we came home and they were supposed to have taken it out and the boat's just hanging out there. Bear told me today that the battery was dead. Yeah, there's always a reason. And I think that they enjoy working on.

I mean, it was a boat that came without a motor. Then they had to fix the motor that he got on Facebook Marketplace. Now they've got to charge the motor. I don't know. It's kind of... It's a trolling motor. It's just got a trolling motor on it. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's big. A lot of boat activity, Malika. You better get in while again. It's good, buddy. By 26, you'll be... you'll be

maybe I'll buy if you bought Apple stock back in like I wouldn't be I wouldn't be on the podcast it's like that buddy you better watch out because hey

I want to go ahead and make this public declaration Brent Reeves and I plan to become commercial fishermen oh really really? Oh it's coming

yeah that's happening huh or at least expert cat fisherman I am an expert cat fisherman. I'm not saying that I'm not. Okay.

But I've kind of been delayed in my development for the last 20 years because I've been pursuing other activities. You mean like there's a professional cat fisherman trapped inside your body? Yes. That hadn't been let out yet. Well, he was out when I was in high school. But he got put back in when I moved to the mountains kind of out of big, just when I moved up here, I don't know.

There's no cat fishing up here is not as good. but big plans for me and Brent to become professional cat fishermen. And on our maiden voyage a couple weeks ago, we caught a giant. Gigantor. Yeah. It was huge. Yeah. That was a 20 pound feed.

Probably was. Well, you said 200. You said 20 pounds. 20 pounds. 20. Well, not tell you. And you are a doctor. Could have been closer to two.

Hey, you should. Somewhere between 20 and 200. somebody, I think there's a lot of character in what people, the world is just witnessed that I underestimated the way to that fish, trying to be honest. Yeah, you always say I overestimate bears by 30%. Well, that's the truth. But that's bears. We're talking catfish.

So, anyway, we're big into the boat world and are going to continue to get bigger. What were the other things on your list? Well, I get a lot of questions on my Instagram about banjo and whether or not we ever sold them. Okay, right. The mule. Yeah, I felt like it would be good to update everyone. Much like I predicted, Clay did not sell him,

despite his strong commitments to do so. Instead, Banjo went to boarding school. Yeah, so. He's in the Ivy League. First of all, Catillion. To give people a little bit of history back, okay,

Izzy, the best mule I've got, I trained her. She's seven years old. I got her when she was 18 months old. I trained her in the six week period. And I trained her myself. And she's a finished, really nice mule worth a lot.

I had a guy come to my house a few days ago and asked me what I would sell her for. And he was a mule trader. And he said, no amount of money. He said, $50,000 like sold. I said, you don't have enough money to buy that mule. And I was being serious.

So I'm telling you that because this is in connection. So banjo is Izzy's full brother. And I got him with the intent of training him myself. My life was quite a bit different when I got banjo in terms of the amount of time that I could spend with a mule. And so I kind of slow trained him. Okay. What I did with Izzy in six weeks, I did in like a year with him, which is not good. It's not good practice.

know, there was just, rather than riding him five days a week, I rode him once every 10 days or maybe once every 10 days I'd ride him three days in a row, and I might go for a month without messing with him and then coming back and messed with him. And so last summer, I started riding him and got bucked off twice, okay? So he scared me, and it was my fault, 100% my fault. And I really felt like this mule had a lot of potential. He was really level-headed. He was a flashy mule, and I'm going to tell you why it's for sure a bona fide, like, stamped and approved flashy mule, a man that I'm going to tell you about in a minute told me this, Brent. And so I asked my dad, I asked all y'all, you know, I think I'm just going to sell him.

Because I, you know, pretty much a bucking mule can be like a biting dog. Like if your dog bites you, you don't really ask many questions. You get rid of the dog. A mule can be that way with certain people. I asked an old mule man, Lloyd Hawley over here in Prairie Grove. I said, man, I got a mule. He's bucked me off twice. I think it's my fault.

I think he's a good mule. And he said, get rid of that sucker. But I just couldn't quite do it. And so my friend Michael Lanier, he was my squirrel hunting mentor and a good mule man. He introduced me to a guy in a guy. another part of Arkansas that is an Amish guy, mule trainer. And in the mule world, the Amish are legendary. The Amish are legendary for being mule trainers.

And so for a very good price, I took banjo over to this guy's place. And the idea was he would keep him for 30 days for a certain price. And he would ride him 30 times or, you know, train him for 30 days. Every day. Every day. And so me and my uncle go over there. And it was fascinating to me. We pull up to this place.

And I thought maybe the guy might have like two or three animals. He was riding for people. This is like a business man. He had probably 20 to 25 horses and mules in stalls just one after the other. And he and his son and his son-in-law and I think another son, I think there are four of them that, I mean, rode and trained

those mules and horses every day. It's just what they wake up and do. And while we're there, these people are very nice people. Then, like this, not big conversationalists necessarily, but I'm trying to sap everything I can out of this small interaction

when I'm dropping banjo off at training camp, you know. And while I'm sitting there, I tie banjo up and there's all these mules and horses and banjo's kind of excited and he's never been in an environment like this he's kind of pulling at the lead rope and amped up and I see two things that happen just while we're standing there in like 10 minutes that would be like if it happened to me they'd have been a big deal

I watched him put a I'm probably boring everybody I watched him put a horse on a treadmill one of the boy the young guys brought this horse over that you could tell had never been ridden and was just bug-eyed and they're trying to get it up on this horse treadmill and they're pulling on it they're pulling on it and trying to get it up in there and I'm talking to the dad

and he while in conversation to me just walks over like never takes eye contact off of me and gets right behind this horse and puts a lariat rope on one side of the treadmill runs the lariat rope around the back of this horse that's freaking out like and he's still talking to me just like well yeah we got all this stuff da da da run it around the back of the horse and through another or back back of the horse through on a back through the treadmill and pulls the rope

so that the rope cinches down and pushes the horse onto the treadmill and he takes the tail of that lariat rope and just pops that horse and it just jumps on that treadmill just like it was born to do it you know he had done that before it was a beautiful tricks it was a beautiful Beautiful trick. I mean, the horse training and mule training is all about confidence.

And I mean, that horse knew that this guy wasn't going to take anything. And then, directly after that, we're still in the same

conversation, one of the young boys walks up and he's got a little, a young colt saddled up. And this colt, you can tell, it's just hardly ever

had a saddle on him. And he puts a saddle on him and ties him up to a stall right there. And the horse starts pulling against the lead.

pulling against it. Like he's not used to being tied up. And he starts bucking and kicking and flips over on the ground, feet in the air, just rolling on the ground. I mean, it's like chaos. And that boy never batted an eye and just sat there within about two feet of that horse. The man never breaks conversation.

Like, I'm like, does he need our help? Get out of here. And he lets that horse do its thing. it flops for a minute, stands up. The boy never, I mean, I'm serious, he didn't smile. He didn't grin, his blood pressure didn't go up. And then he takes the horse off of the, unties it, and walks it out. And he didn't ride the horse, but he just starts training.

I mean, just like every day they see this. That's where banjo's out. Wow. So. How long has he been there? And when I was leaving, the man said to me, he said, banjo will be on that treadmill by the time you guys leave. Wow. I love it.

I didn't see him put him on, but he was just like, it starts to that. How long has he been there? Well, he's there for a month, and I talked to him, and he said he's really happy with what Banjo's doing. He says he's not bucked. He's not kicked. He said he really wants to do what they want him to do. He thinks he's got a lot of potential. He thinks that he told me he needs another 30 days.

So I'm going to leave him there another 30 days. It's like a chiropractor. Yeah. And I went through the whole thing. with him about, you know, well, what if I took him? And he said, well, how much time will you have to ride him? And I said, well, I don't know, probably not that much. And he said, well, you need leave him here. And I said, deal. And then I said, Misty, I said, what will this animal be worth when he comes back from you after being under saddle for 60 days? And he said, Clay, he said, that's a

pretty flashy mule. He's got white feet. Whoa. And he said, he said, he's a big meal. He literally said that. He literally said that. And he told me, that they took a mule like Banjo to a big sale the other day and sold him for $5,500. And he said if I wrote him for a year after I get him back from them, he said he might be worth $10,000. How you like that? I should have sent that bucking horse of mine up in my dad.

It's kind of like Banjo's revenge. Banjo got his own PhD. Banjo's getting a PhD for those boys. Yeah. Okay, that was a big story. That's a good one. That's a good one. I'm glad to hear that Banjo's in such.

You know, I think I envisioned it as a little bit, I envisioned it a little differently. Like scare straight, maybe? No, I mean, I feel like that's what we're in. That's what we're going on after you. It feels a little, yeah, like, I didn't realize Banjo was in this much trouble, you know, that he goes to a place like that. But it helps me. Yeah. I'm thinking about sending some of the kids, though.

Yeah, I've got a couple names I could add to the list of suggestions. I love those guys so much. My question is, did the treadmill have one of those screens? with a trainer's face on it and talking to it. You know what they do? You know what they do? The horse is running on the treadmill, and it's got big sides on it,

and they throw tarps over the mule. They get up on the treadmill and sit on the mule while it's running on the treadmill. Like on a mule that's never been ridden, just because it can't get away. It can't fight it. It's got nothing. Isn't it an electric treadmill? Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. It's like, what do they call that? I mean, it's a, the mules. And by the time they're done, I mean, the meal is like doesn't care. He's just like, well, I guess people can get on my back now. So we had a interesting two episodes of the Bear Gries podcast that just came out about, we call it our Conman series.

It's good. It was, this all started. Steve Rinella was actually the one who told me about the book, The Education of Little Tree. Do you ever heard of it before? No. Had you? Had anyone? Uh-uh.

Jessica read it. junior high because she's... Wow. Yeah, that's just... Really, your wife, Jessica. Oh, like independently. It wasn't like an assignment. No, it was in class.

It was either junior or high school. She's a literature major, but she did it in high school, huh? Yeah, but she didn't know the backstory because she's like, yeah, I didn't really care for that book. But when I told her about the author, she's like, that's really fascinating.

Yeah. So she read it. Had you ever heard of it, Malaga? Never. Yeah. Yeah, I had never heard of it. And I think that it was on its way to becoming

a book like where the Redfern grows, kind of an American classic adolescent book, and then all this stuff with AISA came out and it kind of put a damper on that. It wasn't until 2007 that Oprah Winfrey took

off the book off her book list. Really? Yeah. It was on her book list for years and years. Wow. Originally when it first came out and was people liked it, even after the New York Times article came out.

There was a period of time when people just didn't know. Okay. It just, the internet was hardly there. Social media. Yeah. It just wasn't, it, it took a while for the world to kind of catch up to the book. And that's when Oprah Winfrey took it off. I tried to get Oprah here today.

She didn't respond to the Bear Grease invite? Well, no, she didn't. Well, sometimes these invites come out last minute. So maybe next time I'm a little more planning. Like most of them. He opened it up with us. a hoot out call. That's probably, got the phone hung up.

Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls in building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts. Now, I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use. I'm not going to go, I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen. But when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for. I have a great turkey hunting track record. if you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods,

they're not going to win calling contests, right? That's who I listen to. I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps's cut, and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts. Check out Prime Cuts at Phelpsgamecalls.com. I think you'll be glad you did, and you'll find out that the Steve Ronella cut

is an easy-to-use cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good. turkey noises and getting action. Where to start with this one? So we have already talked about the first episode, but the second episode with Aisa Carter. Who would like to start? Who would like to start?

Would it be too early to jump in with some of the, just clarifying? Yeah, go ahead. All right, I don't want to be mean to Clay, but I actually, after... I got my head on a swivel. Yeah, exactly. Did any of you find the pronunciation of the KKK?

I think that's where we need to start. How would you say, Brent, don't say KKK. Say the full, say the full. Say what each one of them is stressful. Ku Klux Klan. Right? Anyone else say it differently? I do.

I always grew up. What are you saying? Clu Klux Klan. You do it too. Dr. Malika and Nichols. Klux Klan. Klu Klux Klan. It is Koo Klux Klan.

It is most definitely Koo Klux Klan. Yeah. And once you listen to the podcast, Clay said, he said, after recording the podcast, he said, hey, say, he basically did the same thing I just did to you. And he said, say, say with that, how would you say KKK? And I said, Ku Klux Klanning goes, oh, talk on it. Josh, you say it, Clue? I don't say it that way, but I grew up in my mind hearing it that way. And I think I was a teenager before I realized, I think I saw it in print.

I was like, oh, it's actually Ku Klux Klan, not Klu Klux Klan. Klu Klux Klan sounds like something from a Dr. Suss book. But it makes sense on your tongue. It's almost like they made a mistake. Like later, like, oh, I've got that L. It messed up the... One of many. Symmetry.

Yeah, so now that we've got that other way. Now that we've got that other way, I thought this was fascinating. Like on so many levels, I thought this podcast was fascinating. As some... You know, I think one of the most fascinating parts of it is that the book is blacklisted and I haven't heard of it and none of my students have read it. That to me, when I just listening, yeah, listening to the podcast, I hadn't heard of the book. So I like to put this kind of stuff and hearing like when I, when I heard the different excerpts from the book and what

they described, it would be the type of book that we would love to read at the school. But it's, it's never on any of the list. Like when you, when you know, you look at. When you Google blacklisted books? No, well, I mean, I don't Google blacklisted books. That's not what I'm going. But it's just interesting. It's never on a recommended list. And no, none of our, over the years, none of our literature teachers have ever brought this up as a good book to read, a good conversation to have. I think it's fascinating that Jessica read it and they didn't have a broader conversation about the fact that this man was a total fraud. Quite a few people reached out to me and said they had read the book and didn't know the background.

And didn't know that. And to me, that's wild. That would be a fascinating background to discuss with high school kids, especially. I mean, I think, or college students. But that brings up the biggest question in the whole thing is, does it matter? Does it matter? Malachi, doesn't matter that he wrote a great book and that he was this guy. I mean, yes and no.

I was rooting for him in a sense of like to hope that he changed at the end, you know? Because I think just looking at people when like, it's hard to change when you get older, right? And to see a guy, potentially see a guy who was so distraught with the world and so, you know, racist that potentially he would change. And you would see. You were thinking maybe the end was going to be. You know, he changed. And so, like, yeah. And he, like, produced this great work that was always in him.

Right. So from that perspective, I think I was rooting for him. I mean, I think it, it doesn't take away the fact that it's a great. book, but I do think you have to, I do think it requires a read and then a discussion, right, about the author. Because I can't remember if it was in the first or second episode, you, the first or second episode you kind of ask, like, would you read this to your kids? Yeah.

Right. And I think, to me, I think I would when they're older to have that conversation about, like, can people who do bad stuff produce good things? Right? That's a, I mean, that's a deep question, especially regarding race, that you yourself have to be resolved in to have. I think it's a great conversation to have with kids who will be faced with, you know, people whose values or the way they live their life is different than you, that they might produce something that's good. And do you value that or do you shun it away just because of their history? I don't have the right answer right now, but.

I mean, I think it's a great exercise to have, and it puts you in an uncomfortable position, right? I think at the end, the guy was crazy. Yeah, 100%. Well, the hard part, not the hard part, but the question then becomes, to what level of scrutiny do we scrutinize everything? Because it's like, I can pick up this book right here.

Well, pick up a book and name the author. Yeah. Is that author perfect? You know, did the author make the sakes? If you're picking up the Bible, then yes. That's about the only one. I mean, so then that means there's a gradient scale because Aces' life was so radical and the sentiment so egregious that we can say, well, for sure it matters with this guy

because of how egregious it was. But then the guy that, you know, cheated on his wife. you know, maybe it's not that big a deal. I mean, I guess it's all, and that's just an example of some scandal. I think what makes this a little bit different is that he stated it was semi-autobiographical. He lied.

Yeah, just another lie. Yeah, he just, I mean, but it is an important one. When you, I think it wouldn't matter to me if he just said this was a non-fiction book. Or this is a fiction book. Like if he just said, this is just the novel that kind of I made up, then that wouldn't be very important.

But the fact that he said this was like, His life story, that makes it, that is puzzling and makes you have to kind of jump to, okay, this guy was crazy. And maybe that doesn't matter. Maybe that doesn't make the book less good. But poor guy, he was really crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

I think the value of it starts at page one and ends at the last page in that book. And you don't take it any further than that. So you're a big death of the author guy. If the end of that is the end of his, trying to think how to phrase it, his participation in that, to me, stopped at the last period and the last page of that book. And I, if I, oh, that guy, if I read that book and enjoy it, thank you for writing a book. Nothing else matters to me as far as he's concerned, long as he's not affecting me or my friends or my family or something like that. which brings up another question, does that, you know, if that book is successful like it was, does that adversely affect me or my family or my friends?

You know, I don't, it'd be hard to correlate all that together. But as far as him as a human being, would I sit down and have a cup of coffee with him? No. Would, could I read his book and enjoy it and end it with just that participation in that piece of his life that he wrote down on a piece of paper, yeah, I can enjoy that. But the rest of it is immaterial to me, the way I look at it.

Yeah. I don't want to be real chatty Kathy here. At the same time, though, does it, you know, his life's message was a massive injustice to a lot of people. Well, Aza Carter was, for sure. Yeah. Forrest Carter was, he wrote. So we're just kind of acknowledging this guy was like two different people.

I think he was schizo. Yeah, that's what, at the end, I thought that of the theories, that was probably the best, this guy is crazy. He's not, he's not well. Because it wasn't just, Ben, it wasn't just a pen name. I was just going to say, it wasn't just a pin name. Like, he picked up and moved his life. Yeah. And like, talk to Barbara Walters. I mean, that's the last straw.

I mean, that's like some magician type of stuff, you know, like to live that type of life. You got to be drinking something in your tea. You know what? There's no, I tried to get the audio from his interview with Barbara Walters and it doesn't exist. I didn't hear you say this on the recording, but didn't she say that was the interview? So Dan T. Carter, he told me that back in the 70s, the Today Show was so, it was one of the best shows, the most watch shows in America, but they were still using tape. and literally would tape over the stuff they did

like the week before just like saving tape you know saving money and so there were no there's no archival footage of that interview but they said that that he he he wore his cowboy hat and he like had his head down all the time and he he was kind of like when you look at it now an expert would be like yeah that guy's probably lying but at the time it just wasn't It wasn't seen. Didn't she say she regretted that?

I want to say that she said that was one of the bigger regrets of her professional career. Because perhaps she wasn't ever duped like that before. Right. Everybody she sat down with, you know, they may have lied to her, but at least they were who they said they were. And so, yeah, the guy was, that's why it was interesting to me just for no good reason. but the guy was was just he was super smart

and was an actor and could tie stories together I mean he was kind of and I don't want to use the word brilliant because it sounds like you're like you like the guy but he was cunning and crafty

yeah golly was he ever Ben what were you going to say well a couple of dollars the first almost like a technicality and this was kind of hinted at the podcast that him having some apparently subconscious things that he respected about Cherokee culture, stuff like that, that's not as like contradictory to his, like, worldview as people might think. Because he didn't write a book about a slave narrative and pretend that he was African-American.

Like, don't think he could consciously do that, consciously do that. But it says as a technicality is like sometimes, people view, like, racists is just like this black or white thing. Right. If you're not. Yeah, yeah. And actually, I think that's actually one of the, the fact that people are more complex than that, to me, is actually the danger in how you might, how you interact with people that do have some pretty messed up worldview. For instance, it's like people that I look at in my childhood that I kind of respected and knew, and I look back, like, it's not like, it's not like, it's not,

like I just reject wholesale everything about their character. But I look back and I see how messed up their views were on race. And I learned from that. And my point is, like, people are complex. And you can, I think you can in one hand, like, condemn something. And on the other hand, be like, wow, that's interesting. But I think after studying history for some of years, I still baffled why we, we is in, like, society, want to like venerate people or just like condemn every part of them or why do people get so infatuated

with talented writers and musicians like who said anybody has to like this guy just because he's a good writer because obviously he's a good writer yeah same thing in musicians like I'll start watching a documentary about some musician that I like their music and I'm halfway into I'm like I kind of can't stand this person like I would not hang out with them like I like their music but I don't like anything about them as a person. And, but it's just weird in us how we, how we try to put people on a pedestal just because they're talented. And you see that in history, starting with George Washington, who was as human as all of us. He's got like this godlike status in our culture because people don't really know about his entire life.

And when you study history, there's so much to take in, you kind of are taught to categorize things pretty quickly. So you can just understand it quicker. and it's like these are the social causes, these are the political causes, these are the economic causes, and these were the good guys, these were the bad guys, and that's just who they were. But when you really dive into history, read biographies and stuff, you learn how complex people are, and sometimes you find people are actually pretty crazy at the end of it. And that might have been part of the driver of their just like massive output of productivity or whatever they were in where there's politics or art or whatever. but people are complex That's good I think the

What you said about musicians Like if we And Malika I'm not arguing with you I'm the same way I think I agree with what you said at the beginning Like we It does matter what the author

Believed and did with his life It's important It's not irrelevant But at the same time Yeah how many musicians Do I like Their music But would

Really be Deeply deeply opposed to the values and lifestyle that they live. Like, a lot. But I still would listen to their music and enjoy it. And I think about you could apply it to politics. There's a lot of politicians whose lifestyles do not match their voting patterns. And so a lot of people would vote for them because they like the way they vote.

But then they find out how they live and it's like, ooh, yuck. That's different. Actually, the opposite of what you say. And which one matters, how they vote, you know, and how much. much that aligns to how you would want to be represented in your government, in a representative government or how they... Exactly. Yeah.

These are complex, difficult questions. Lambridge. You know, it's interesting. I actually had some of the same thoughts about musicians and celebrities. I mean, I struggle sometimes, like, with professional athletes. It's like, that are venerated. But really, they're just absolute dirt balls, you know? And because they have a skill.

And at the same time, you can enjoy watching them play or you can enjoy listening to their music. When there's a sports game on, I only watch the good guys. I do not enjoy. Anyone that doesn't have my exact value system, I blank them out in my mind as they play football. But I think I would lean more toward the death of the author philosophy that I think that you, you know, I think you can, I think it also depends on your, your worldview and perspective, because I think there is, there are people who are very critical of everything that they see and here. And, you know, I remember when I was a kid, we boycotted everything. Because, you know, until I got older and realized, like, there is stuff in the world that

is not going to align with my values. However, you know, scripture talks about being in the world and not of the world. And so we have the opportunity to maneuver those things and still maintain the standards that we have. I can read this book and not violate my conscience or I can enjoy it. However, do I agree with Aisa Carter? Absolutely not. You know what I mean? The man was a kook. But I think if your perspective is right, you can read that book and you can identify things inside of it that are, A, beautiful, because I think, you know, the prose that you read in the, I've never read the book, but that you read the excerpts of on the podcast, was so beautifully written and it paints a picture in your mind.

But at the same time, you know, we can also, you know, I think we have the ability to, you know, if you have a critical mind and ability to read that stuff, you know, can someone who has such a strong philosophy about certain things right in right like that and not, they're not be subversive or seditious things going on behind there, even consciously or subconsciously that they put in there. Who knows? But I do appreciate it. And I think you can read it.

You know what I mean? I think probably thousands of people, when Oprah put it on her list, I'm sure thousands and thousands of people read it and liked it and, you know, didn't become racist. This guy must be a swell guy right in this movie. I think I'm one of those people that, like, when you're watching a movie, and if it really impacts me, I go and research, like, the people who wrote it and who made it. And so, first of all, I think I would not have been dup. Had I known this book existed, I think I would have researched this guy. You'd have found him out. I think I would have.

Well, the early years you couldn't have, though, that's true. It's true. Yeah, it's true. But I think, you know, for me, like, I do get really connected to who, and I don't abstain from watching them in sports, but I actually care a lot about that, the people behind the, behind all these things. And that matters a whole lot to me, mainly just because I'm curious, you know, and I'm, and I'm interested in the person behind such a brilliant story.

So I think for someone like me, this is like, what? This guy just totally lied and is completely different. So it would affect you beyond, would it have affected you so much that you wouldn't have enjoyed the story? I don't know that if I wouldn't have enjoyed the story, but it certainly changes when you read it. I thought it was really interesting when he actually interviewed the Native American people and they say, well, this is accurate, but this part over here is not at all. Yeah, we would have never. And it was like, oh, okay, so he's kind of just writing like a Southern guy who has observed some. Right.

I kind of thought that was a little nitpicky, though. Really? Well, kind of like Steve said, he said, nobody had problems with this book at all until we found out who the author was. You know, Steve said, go back to the 70s and see if anybody was saying that it was bad. Did they have any Native Americans interviewed in the 70s about what they thought about it? That I don't really know. But I know that the world, and this wasn't coming from the Native American community, perhaps they had a response, and I'm unaware of it.

But, you know, the world was venerating him as one of the greatest Native American writers in history. Pretty crazy. And so, I mean, you know, they weren't, and I don't know. Yeah. Have they ever heard of Tecumsehuf? Tecumfus? Yeah. Tecumth.

Tecumtha. I had a guy stopped me the other day and say, Clay. It's not to comfort. It's tecumtha. Oh, that sounds a lot better. Yeah. Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls in building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts.

Now, I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use. I'm not going to go, I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen. But when I run this call, I get the sound. that gobblers are looking for. I have a great turkey hunting track record. If you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contests, right?

That's who I listen to. I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps' cut, and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts. Check out Prime Cuts at Phelpsgamecalls.com. I think you'll be glad you did, and you'll find out that the Steve Rinella cut is an easy-to-use cut for beginning callers

who just want to start making good turkey noises and getting action. This is a technical media question. What do you guys think about me reading excerpts from books? Like when you're listening to the podcast, I like it. Do you go, oh, gosh, here we go. I feel more connected to it.

Okay. And I can say I haven't read the book but I listen to an audio book because I did. Technically, a little snippet. Just on, yeah, just me read. The people say, you ever read that? I'm like, yeah, let's sell a lot of your book.

You know what? Sometimes I just, you know, when I'm making these podcasts, I'm just trying to find a way to tell the story. And part of this was convincing people who hadn't read the book that it was a good book. I mean, that was what I was trying to do because I believed it was a good book. What I found interesting was the whole thing about making money.

It was almost like, I mean, he obviously never admitted that he thought he was wrong, but he eventually kind of gave up. It was almost like, lost the, lost this war that I've devoted my life to. I'm just going to go make some money. I didn't find that very shocking. That's like, that kind of makes sense. I think the most shocking thing is the extent he went to to sell a book

to like literally con America. Yeah. And it was, it's pretty twisted but also kind of hilarious. It made me think of when Elon Musk took over Twitter and they're like this, everybody thought he was going to fire everybody and these two random young guys got boxes and they started walking down the street near the office. fooled all these journalists and just saying they got fired.

They started tweeting and writing about all these firings and they were just totally made it up. It's something that's entertaining about somebody that cons others like that. You know what? I have to say, and maybe this is a character flaw, but I assume that if I pick up a book and it says based on a true story or something like that, that is a lie. That is an exaggeration. That if I see a movie is based on a true story, they made that crap up. Yeah, yeah, based on a true story.

Oh man, you should see, I mean, when I'm watching a movie based on a true story, I basically have my phone. Exactly. Oh, that's me on Alexis right there. I'm like, fact-checking everything. I mean, who's to say that an autobiography is completely true? I mean, it's my story. I tell it like I want to.

Exactly. Yeah, that's this country life. One day that we do in a podcast about Brent, we'll be like, none of it was true. That guy was from New York City. You know, something this made me think about is my, and there's been several stories like this that have come out in the news in the last like five or ten years but at our daughter's school there was a woman who was like named to all these latin like community service leadership positions and really worked for the on the for the welfare of latino people and she of course claimed to have

been raised in a latin community in like you know some some urban area and it turned out she is not at all latin what there's none of that that and she got found out she got fired and they wrote a letter an apology letter to all the students and to me as a parent I got this letter we know you're disturbed by this and it was like this woman's been working for decades inside of this this community under and some I don't even know how they they figured it out but it's kind of the same the same thing except for in her case she was actually she's doing good for that community wow and it's it's like that's well that's pretty messed up though I mean living a total lie.

Iron eyes, Cody. What's that? Remember that guy? Yeah. The Native American air quotes. They're standing on the side of the road and somebody drives by and throws a McDonald's sack out in his feet and he's dressed in full Native American regalia. And he turns and looks towards the camera and up a go tear. That guy was not an Indian?

That dude was from Sicily. Are you kidding me? Yeah, he was Italian. Josh's world is being rocked right now. See, I told you. Are you going to start littering now? Heck yes. Because you've been fooled?

Hey, what did you guys think about the, were you surprised? Malika, let me ask you, were you surprised when you heard the inner workings of how the white supremacists were saying that the civil rights movement was the communists being fed by the Jews? No. Did you know that? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I studied that in school. Okay. Yeah.

I think it goes back to what Ben said. I mean, this stuff is complex. You know, the issues of race and South, it's really complex and there's no black and white. I think human beings wanted to be black and white, yes or no. And it's just not so. And I think also one thing that I was just thinking about Asa and just his life, I think everybody comes to a position of like making a choice right i think he probably had a choice of of like wanting things deeper or like turning his life around or trying to produce books

and just like letting the the kKK life go and i think he just made a choice to not do it i think towards the end of his life he probably looked back he was you got to mix in he's crazy and stuff like that look back and thought man like i wasted my time right did this radio show and got kicked out, right? I supported, you know, Governor Wallace and then ran against him and lost, right? Like his life is just a bunch of trying and trying and trying and failing. And then he just thought, man, maybe I should put my life towards something. And he produced this like great book. So, I don't know, very interesting, man. It was cool that he told that story somebody that was in the Navy with him. He said they'd heard that story when he was young. Yeah. Before he did all that other

He was 18 years old. Yeah. He told that story. He told, so that's been in him for a while. And it goes back to that thing. I said on the last render, I think people are inherently good because that's the only place a story like that comes from. And he just chose to be a terrible person.

Mm-hmm. I think that was, I think everybody, I mean, obviously, I say obviously, I'm not a doctor like most of the folks in here. Yeah. Or a captain. Or a captain. There's three. There's three.

Malachi, Misty, and Clay. Yeah. But, I mean, it would seem that the guy had some kind of mental problems. But outside of that, he could have been a good guy. Because that story's got to come from a good place to me. I've got a theory on gifting. And it's based on a lot of different things. feel like sometimes people who are like extremely good at stuff. And you know, they talked about

every single good speech or all the, it was clear he was an excellent writer. He was excellent. And sometimes I feel like there's, you're kind of teetering with like this balance in life between normal and gifting. And, and like the more, the more gifted you are and the more you go into that space and the more you perfect your craft, the less stable. you become as a human being. That's kind of a pessimistic worldview, but that's been my experience. What you're saying,

I mean, it made me think about, Aso Carter made me think about Bill Gates. And there's a documentary about Bill Gates and his wife is talking about Bill and how Bill is extremely smart, extremely smart, but Bill is not connected to his emotions,

right? Connected to how he feels. And I think he kind of connects with what Misty says, Like you can put so much energy and perfecting your craft and doing these things with gifting that you lose a sense of humanity. Right. You lose a sense of connection and normalcy and enjoyment and, you know, valuing people that you kind of, you get warped. And I think you mix that with like, you know, the deep races, the deep.

There was a story in there where he talked about he got removed or he failed out of a class. and like that immediately he got resentful to that. Like you mix all of that. Like the system being against you and you feel like, oh, this isn't fair. And it kind of twist you a little bit. And it's not, can be my fault. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got to blame somebody.

Looking for an enemy. I think working with kids a lot, you see parents come in when kids are really young and they want you to perceive their kids as gifted and really unique. And it's like, I think you should really be shooting for average here. There's a lot of value. And having an average kid, there's a lot of, I mean, I'm joking, but I'm also dead serious. Well, and it's something that we've done with our kids, I think, is that we've, gifting is being gifted at something, it doesn't, it's almost like it doesn't come by merit in a way.

And so there's things that you, we have honored character over gifting with our kids. That's the most simple way to say it. Because gifting will take care of itself. There's certain things that your kids You are going to be able to do That nobody else can do that you didn't work for You just kind of got it You know like Brent and his beard

And his overalls And That beard's looking good by the way So you understand what I'm saying Yeah and if you put too much of an emphasis on that And if you go Emphasis on the gifting It'll kind of pollute them

Yeah and I think that there's a lot to be said for restraint Just saying hey I can go to like real extreme places with this thing. And you see this a lot with artists with, and they get weird. Artist, musicians. Yeah, they just, they, it's like, exactly. But you see this a lot with artists where they, they just go down these extreme tunnels.

They take on different identities. They become different people. And it's like, I bet it'd be good for the world if you were just like pretty darn good at your art and a really good person. Let me ask you guys something. Do you, I had a lot of people comment to me. that they were maybe not surprised, but they, that's what they said,

that we could tackle this kind of issue on this platform. Do you all think, are just kind of like, well, of course we're going to talk about this. What do you think, Malika? I mean, I wouldn't say surprised. I think it needs to be, like, when I think about like the Bear Grease podcast, I think about, like, taking you to the wild

and it's uncomfortable, right? and I think it's okay to navigate the things that are uncomfortable. And I just think race in the South and, you know, hunting and Indians and, you know, everything that's included, it's uncomfortable. It's not as black and white. Yeah. And, you know, you navigate it with wisdom, but I think you do got to talk about it. Yeah. It's all just really interesting to me.

I had one negative review. It's a one star. Yeah, yeah. He said, I love the podcast. I love all you guys, but this has nothing to do with hunting. This is an outdoor podcast. This is a waste of time. He just lamb bassist saying like, why are you even talking about it?

And I don't take much, I mean, this is not, we never said it was a hunting podcast. Right. I mean, honestly, if I'm interested in it and there's any connection to the natural world, and this book, The Education of Literary, was the gateway into this story, you know. And I appreciate that we can talk about the stuff and not be afraid of it. Saying that, let's close on this one.

What did you think about me reading the Unibir Manifesto? That's exactly what I was about. I was like, I'm not surprised we talk about this, but that feels a little bit. No, Brunella is the one who had to read the Unabar Manifesto in the same class that he read the Education of Little Tree. And so the Unabomber Manifesto was in the New York Times and the Washington Post in 1995. So it's not like this is bank contraband material. This literally was published in these places. And it didn't take me long to find that section.

And I wasn't looking for that section. I was just looking for a section that I could pull out that would have some relevance. and a whole lot of what he said, a whole lot of humans in America would agree with. That's how those kind of people get followers. Exactly. Is looking for somebody or looking to identify with somebody. And if they're an orator like Ticumth or whatever,

how we decided to say it, that's how he got this folks following him. He was able to get his message out. Oh, I identify with that guy. I'm going to start following him. Let's go do some stuff together. Burn a barn, well, okay, I guess it's all right. And then it just magnifies them there, but that's how they get those folks to follow them.

Yeah. It's almost like extremism is about the application and the solution to the problem, but they start out talking about the problem that a lot of people might agree with, and then they just get more and more extreme. Yeah. Yeah, it goes back to that thing. Everybody always, regardless of what the issue is, somebody ought to do something about that. Well, finally some guy says, I'll tell you what, I'll do something about it. If you'll go

with me. Well, I don't know. Josh would be like, I got to ask my wife. Keeps me safe. Well, it was, my point in reading that was to show, I was qualifying what Steve said when he said he would have believed that the Unabomber had wrote the education of littletry. I was qualifying that statement but the point that I the thing that I also saw was that a lot of times being crazy comes with a lot of can come with some reasonable ideas can come you know it can it can come cloaked in something that seems seems insightful seems like well yeah and and and obviously the Unabomber was a bad dude um clearly but there's a whole lot of

that manifesto that's really interesting. But yeah. Well, any closing thoughts? What was it, what was the most shocking part of the thing, or your favorite part or the something that really stood out to you? My favorite part was the church story. And that guy about, you know, him fighting for everything. I think that was in the first one.

Oh, the Coon Jack. And Coon Jack, I got the difference right here under my shirt. Yeah, yeah, he showed him a pistol. Yeah. Yeah. Wasn't that good? That's good writing. I mean, surely he just made that up.

Like, I don't think that happened. It kind of reminded me a little bit of Jerry Clower. What's his name? Jerry Clower. Yeah, Jerry Clower. That story about the guy, do you remember when you did the podcast on him? The story about the, it actually sounds a lot like stuff that does happen in small church. I mean, it really does.

When I read it, I thought, man, he saw that happen. You're talking about the chandelier story. Yeah, the chandelier story. It reminds me, Jerry Clower, chandelier story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The circumstances around us death were pretty fascinating. Yeah, and we didn't get into it.

Boy, that was a cliffhanger. Yeah. Yeah, I felt, so you can read the book, Unmasking the Clansman by Dan T. Carter. And I actually, I did that interview before the book came out. Oh, really? Oh, okay. Yeah.

So the detail, and I had to respect Dan, and I understood he just laid out everything you know he hid nothing and he wrote this book and he's the world's expert on Aza Carter and so when he didn't want to tell me how he died I respected that and I didn't go like look it up so we don't really know how he died so can you tell us here we'll keep it a secret I still don't know

the book came out the book came out in April like it's barely out okay so we can all go look I think we should respect yeah I think we should respect them yeah I'll go I'm I'm super curious, especially because he kept calling it biblical. Yeah. And you should reference Cain and Able. Yeah. What does that mean?

That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Like maybe he had a worst brother that killed him? Maybe. Wow. I'm concerned about this family. Yeah.

Yep. Well, we'll be moving on to greener pastures on Bear Greece after this one. The next episode is going to be really good. I can't tell you what it's about, but... I can. I can, too. I'll call Dan Carter and ask him. This country life?

DM me, I'll tell you what it is. Well, thank all you guys for coming. Much appreciated. See y'all in August. See you all in August. 30-32. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, Josh, you know, I tell you, you said something about my beard.

I'll tell you what my grandpa said about it. The first beard I grew. He said, that looks ridiculous. I said, why? She said, I would not cultivate on my face what grows wild on my behind. Oh, my gosh. I broke out my passport from 1994 and was showing these guys my little pencil mustache that I was really proud of back then. Because that's all I could grow was like 17 hairs on each side.

Like a hen turkey with a beard. On blood trails, the stories don't. end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bed. And there was a full of blood. Oh my God, he doesn't have a hit.

Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors. Where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there. But he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper. From cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwards. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together.

He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, IHeart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.