Bear Grease - Ep. 12: Snake Bit - The Original Fear

Episode Date: July 28, 2021

Whether you like it or not, snakes are a unique part of the human experience. We've had an unusual fear of them since humans started recording their lives in ways we can now study. In this episode, we'll talk with a man who's been bit so many times by venomous snakes he's lost count. We'll dive in deep with a Dr. Chris Jenkins of the Orianne Society trying to understand Timber Rattlesnake biology -- he calls them America's snake. He also tells us what to do if you get bit by a snake. We'll end with a shocking interview you wouldn't believe unless you heard it from the person it happened to. It's going to be a slithery conversation as we try to understand snake biology, human fear, and why snakes are important. Let us know what you think about this episode!Connect with Clay and MeatEaterClay on InstagramMeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeShop Bear Grease Merch Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. First Lights fieldware collection is made for the work that happens long before opening day and continues when the season ends. Products built for early mornings, full days and real use. Hard wearing where they need to be versatile where it matters. No shortcuts. Just gear designed for the work that earns the season.

Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new field. Worldware gear at firstlight.com. How many times have you been bit by a poisonous snake? I really didn't keep count. I don't know. I'm guessing 20, give or take one or two. Is that right?

Yeah. On this episode of the Bear Grease podcast, we've gone absolutely wild as we discuss the original human fear, serpents and their bites. You'll meet a man who's been bit so many times by venomous snakes. lost count. We'll have an enlightening conversation with the nationally recognized herpetologist about what he calls America's Rattlesnake and what to do if you get bit. And we'll hear a story you wouldn't believe unless you heard it from the person it happened to. A story of tragic loss and overcoming fear. You're not going to want to miss this one.

What do you do if you get bit by a snake? The first thing I'll do is tell you that that you should have planned to not get a bite. And I say that. That doesn't count. You can't tell me that. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is the Bear Grease podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant. Search for insight in unlikely places,

and where we'll tell the story of Americans who live their lives close to the land. Presented by FHF Gear, American-made, purpose-built, hunting, and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman, did God really say you must not eat of the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?

The Lord God asked the woman, what have you done? The serpent deceived me, she replied. That's why I ate it. Then the Lord God said to the serpent, because you have done this, you are cursed more than all animals, domestic and wild. You will crawl on your belly, grovelling in the dust as long as you live, and I will cause hostility between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will strike your head, and you will strike his heel. This is from the Bible in the book of Genesis, chapter 3. This ancient text is fascinating.

It highlights the long-standing relationship between mankind and a very particular wild beast, one that has become a defining feature of the human experience. I believe this story has significant meaning. It holds within it the foundations of a human worldview, and it's ripe with unbendable biological reality. Humans flip out when they see a snake. Well, at least most of them. Well, you know, I didn't really get into woods heavy

until I was like 26, 27. And so I created a little bucket list of things that I wanted to accomplish. You know, turkey hunter, deer hunter, bow hunter. And I wanted to get involved with a big rattlesnake, you know, one way or the other. I just, I'd heard so much about them. This is my dad, Gary Newcomb. In a lifetime of searching for the mythical Black Panther, inside joke from episode one, He's kept his eyes on the ground looking for acorns and big rattlesnakes.

His fascination with nature and curious spirit tutored me into a lifelong fascination with snakes and acorns. He was ahead of his time by proclaiming a don't kill snakes policy long before it was cool. So I'm out in the National Four, no, actually wasn't, it was warehouser land, driving around, was on a real straight road and I looked down the road and at the time I thought a quarter of a mile. It could have been 200 yards. But I saw a log across the road and I was already anticipating going over that log. I thought, man, I wish I could get around that thing. Well, I got up there and it was a diamond back rattlesnake that somebody had killed.

And they'd cut the rattlers off. So this was the snake that I wanted to get involved with one way or the other, probably at the time. A lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, I'd love to have had the skin, I'll be honest with you. At that time, you know, you didn't hear much about that kind of stuff. So I drove up on it and kind of went around it and pulled my Jeep over and opened the door and looked at this sucker. And I mean, cold chills went up my back.

I could not get that snake, man. I mean, I just had. So you were going to get out and take it home? I was going to get it. Yeah, I was going to take it. And since the guy taking the head and the rattlers, you know, I thought, well, I'll just take the hide. I couldn't touch that snake. But, I mean, it was a big one.

I mean, it was huge. You know, it's hard to tell, but I'd say at least five feet and maybe bigger. And a whole lot bigger than the biggest timber rattler I'd ever seen. And I've seen one or two really big timber rattlers. In fact, one of them was as big as you'll ever see. Well, you told us that story when we were kids. And I could have told that story word for word just the way you told it. And so that impacted me, and it put a value system marker inside of my head that there's value on a big rattlesnake.

And then how you responded to it, you know, just like it. The visual look at that snake just scared you. Well, you know, it's almost biblical, the impact it has on you. You just wonder how I can see a bit of. bear and it, you know, I respect it, but I don't scream and holler and jump back. But I see a snake, and I mean, my first reaction is automatic. It's a verbal outcry and a movement to the rear. Let's talk about getting bit by snakes.

In the next two interviews, we're going to hear from some snake bite victims. I'm always very interested in the exact detail of every snake bite that I hear about. You'll recognize this first voice when you hear it, and you probably won't be surprised that this guy has been bit by a poisonous snake. I'll give you a hint of who it is. He's wearing overalls. Brent Reeves. Yes, sir. Why does it not surprise me that you're the only friend I know that has been bit by snake,

alongside having seen two legitimate mountain lions? Yeah. Tell me about what year did you get bit by snake? Well, see, I was 19 years old, so it had been about 1987. Tell me this story. Where were you at? What happened? What kind of snake was it?

Give me the whole spiel. Me and a buddy of mine had been, and we were going to look at a boat, an old aluminum boat that we were going to buy and get rich in the duck guide business, guide and duck hunters. That turned out good. It did. It actually did. You were a successful duck guy.

Carry on. For about 26 years. But I digress. We had gone and looked at this boat. We were going back and we were almost to the house. Out of nowhere, this big copperhead is crawling across the middle of the gravel road. I said, stop, man. That is a huge copperhead.

Let's catch him. He stops. We get out. And I go back to the back of the truck. We run over him, you know, not we straddled him, I should say. And stops. So when the truck goes over, he coals up in the, in the, road and so I'll go up there and I put my foot. I even remember what I had on. I had on a pair

overalls a t-shirt and a pair of high top converse tennis shoes. About what you're wearing today. Yeah, I replace the converse with crocs because they're easy to tie. But I put my foot on this on his head, you know, and I got his head. He's just barely sticking out from under the ball of my foot so I can reach down and grab him and have control of his head and I don't get bit. Well, you know, it's a gravel road. And I was standing on top of a rock that was beside this snake's head. So I really was exerting no pressure on this snake's head. So when I stuck my hand down there, my left hand for some reason, he turned around and bit me.

And it was like, how did that happen? And I stepped back and I told my buddy Wayne. I said, Wayne, he just bit me. He said, no, he didn't. And I showed it to him. And a little blood started to come out. He said, oh my God, you're going to die. Brent went to the hospital, received two vials of antivenom, and stayed overnight, but was no worse for the wear.

He just learned a good lesson. Snake bites in the United States aren't all that common, at least if you believe, statistics. Around 5,000 people get bit each year and relatively few die from snake bites in this country, but not so in other places. Worldwide, there are over 500 venomous snakes. And to be accurate, you should say venomous, not poisonous. Estimates are hard to calculate, but it's believed that as many as 100,000 people die each year from snakes, many of them in Africa and India. They have some ridiculously deadly snakes in these places, much more dangerous than America's snakes. The Russell's Viper is a bad boy that lives in India and Asia.

and the puff adder and black mamba are the culprits in Africa. Everybody has a different answer for what is the most poisonous snake in the world. Some say it's the eastern brown snake in Australia. Some say the Belcher Sea snake living around the Indian Ocean. Others say the inland Tai Pan in Australia. It's almost impossible to nail down. However, the most venomous aren't the ones causing the most deaths. It's a complex equation based on numbers.

of humans and how their lives overlap with snake habitat combined with access to modern anavinemes, and therein lies the real issue. Access to annavenom in many places is a real problem. You should research this. You're about to meet a very unique human who resides on the outskirts of human tolerance of the original fear. Mr. Fred Lally is an unusually vibrant and energetic man for his age. He looks fast and wiry.

He's a swift and accurate judge of character after decades of living on the road. He'll have a pretty good bead on you after making eye contact and exchanging a few words. I found this out when I pulled off the road, walked through his yard, and introduced myself to him. He was digging worms for a fishing trip. For the last 50 years, Mr. Fred has made a living traveling around to America's fairs, carnivals, and festivals with an exhibit called Lally's Oddities. He's got a trailer full of head scratching and even disturbing biological rarities that at one time included two-headed rattlesnakes and turtles, an eight-legged pig,

and the skeleton of a two-headed monkey. But he specializes in venomous snakes. But first, I'd like to make a disclaimer. I'm extending some trust to you all and a favor by, letting Mr. Fred tell just a small part of his incredible life story. We talked for a couple hours. The casual nature in which he handles getting bit by venomous snakes isn't normal, nor is it advised to take medical advice from this section.

Later, we'll swing the pendulum back the other direction. I want you to meet my friend, Mr. Fred. Mr. Fred, tell me about your relationship with snakes. It really started, I guess, when I was 10 years old, my daddy died. And I was a lot freer than to do what I wanted. That means even venomous snakes. Well, the pygmy rattler wasn't numerous. Copperheads were fairly numerous back, and this is in the early 40s.

Well, actually, this was 1950 when after my dad died. How old are you, Mr. Fred? 80. 80 years old. And where did you grow up? In Louisiana, specifically around Pontchitula Hammond, which is about, about 50 miles north of New Orleans. So you started catching snakes and you just liked snakes.

Just liked them. Now, you got bit when you were young, though. Yeah, I think it was 13. Tell me what happened. Well, it was a pygmy rattler. I shot a squirrel and I was butchering it down, force-feeding the little pigment rattler. I didn't have anything that he would eat.

But I do that a lot. Some snakes, you wouldn't have to force-feed them a couple of times and they realize what you put in their mouth is food. They'd just go and eat it. Oh, I see. Now, the pygmy rattlesnakes are like a lot of rattlesnakes. They're an ornery type. They're broncos.

The pygmy rattlers are annery. Yeah. Now, the pygmy rattlers, I never had any attempt even as a youngster to try and calm them down to where you could just freehandle them. Yeah. And I read an article in a true magazine. The true magazine was 1947, and it was about Grace, Olive Wiley, the California snake. lady. Oh my God.

That woman didn't matter what it was. And she called it tame. Taming the snakes. Right. I'd use her techniques after I read that. I was probably 11 or 12. When you read that. When this pygmy rattler bit you, he bit you on the hand.

Yeah. I turned my head to get the second leg. The squirrel leg. Yeah. And he'd already swallowed the first one. I'd put it in his mouth and partially shoved it into his throat. Then I back off, and I'm holding him a lot. You're holding him by the neck with one hand,

and you're feeding him a squirrel with your other hand. And as I turned my head, and like I said, I'd loosen my grip on him a lot. Well, that finger's gone now. First bite. Oh, really? Is that what happened to your hand? Oh, Lord, no, no, no. It wasn't hardly anything. The first bite would prove to be the beginning of a lifetime of handling snakes.

You heard him mention that, finger is gone. Well, he's missing a ring finger in a fair chunk of his right hand. But the pygmy rattlesnake didn't have anything to do with that. Later, he'll tell us what happened. Back to Fred. Although I had anaphylactic shock from that serum. I wasn't going to... So did they take it to the hospital? That would have been in the 40s. Did you... No, I made a mistake. I did say the 40s. It was definitely 53 when I was bitten by the snake. Okay, 1953. And they gave you some annavenom?

Without testing, the doctor just panicked. And he didn't test to see if I was allergic to it. It's made from a horse serum, you know that bit and all. And it's quite 20% of the people are allergic to it. Okay. And I was highly allergic. I mean, he gave me the shot. Within 30 seconds, I passed out.

My poor mother stand there, and all she thinks the rattlesnakes doesn't kill me. You know, normally snakes, God, you'll probably delete all this. I got better enough between the cotton mouths, just one copperhead bite, and different kind of rattlesnakes, quite a few of them, and a few other exotics. It's not nearly as bad as even doctors. Your general doctor, they think it's perhaps life-threatening. When I say perhaps, more than likely it's on. because they don't know how to treat you mostly.

You go and tell them you a snake bit, they panic. Well, yeah. How many times have you been bit by a poisonous snake? I really didn't keep count. Really? I mean, like more than five? Oh, definitely. I tried to somewhat count up.

I don't know. I'm guessing 20, give or take one or two. Is that right? Yeah. 20 poisonous snakes. Okay, so you. You started collecting and handling snakes when you were young, and you've done that your whole life pretty much.

Yeah. So tell me about the first time you got, have you been bit by a timber rattler? Cane break, timber rattles, same thing. Yes. Yeah. Tell me about what happened there. I'd hired somebody new to help me as I was traveling, sitting up at shopping centers at that particular time.

This was in the early 70s. And the cane break, I was down in the panhandle of Florida, going along, United States, 10, hitting towns about every time. 20, 30 miles going into different shopping center setting up. I got bit. I'm trying to think which hand it was. I think I got bit on my left hand, which is unusual. And it nailed me pretty good.

It started swelling pretty good. Got up to about here, swell and started going back down. And then it started retreating. Well, I mean, I continue working. It doesn't seem to bother me that much, really. You know what I mean? I had quite a few bites by that time. Some of them bad.

It started going back down and you didn't go to the hospital? Oh, absolutely not. Really? You just kept working. Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't want something put out that this is not bad. Right. And I don't want to put this out that you become immune to it. But your body does build up antibody.

Wow. Were you ever bitten, like, just out in the wild? Yeah. Or was it always when you were messing around with your pet snake? No, because out in the wild is my favorite thing is going out. Even if I catch them and turn loose, that's my gulp. You know what I mean? Yeah.

It's just going to be starting off somewhat of a fun day. And I'm going to go down to New Orleans to see this animal dealer. On the way there, he asked me if I'd pick, he wanted some cotton mouths. That was kind of the off-season when, but I'm going through a swamp for 30-something miles to go to New Orleans. And there's an old highway right next to the newer highway. And that old bridges, they hang out there. And I usually, anytime I go there, five or six of this bridge, five or six of the next bridge. And it might be a seven or eight miles stretch where it's real heavy.

Every bridge, it just slues it going to the road. Yeah. So I could think he might, 30 cotton miles probably that trip down. It might take me two hours. But I had on good shoes. Yeah. And there was one spot. He didn't want any water snakes, but I saw this water snake.

It slides into the water. And I'm going across this old log that's laying there in the mud and slop. Very little water about that deep. And I'm upon that, walking slow. And I saw him go in the water. I knew where he stopped. He stopped right there. So I walked pretty much that area.

And I saw his back sticking up out of the... I caught him. Didn't pay any attention as to... He was just... I was getting rid of him. He'd bite the assholes. I get by the water snakes there were really vicious about biting, biting, biting. And I look down, I see that broadhead of that cotton mouth.

And it's done bit me three times on my hand. You thought you were picking up a banded water snake and you picked up a cotton mouth. Yeah, I saw it right there. So I just slung it. I mean, yeah, I just, I just swung it. So you weren't worried about that water snake biting you. Oh, not at all. You just figured he'd hit you a couple times.

Yeah, I was getting ready to sling it. So what did you do? You got bit three times. the arm by cotton-out. No, it's in the hand. Three times in the hand. Yeah. It was in between these two fingers. On your right hand. So anyway, well, it's on the way. Maybe go to the hospital and maybe have something done because I'm still young at this point. And, I mean, it was maybe a bad bite really bad.

So I'm thinking about going to the hospital. I'll go to the emergency room and sit there a while. Just, you know, I'll be at least in the emergency. See if you get sick. Yeah, if I start feeling, yeah. I wish I had time for you to hear the whole story, but it went like this. He goes to the ER and asks to just sit in the waiting room to see if it gets bad. The doctors say, no way we're giving you the anavent. Mr. Fred denies the treatment for financial reasons, but also because of his allergicness to anavent him. He then takes a taxi to another hospital where they allow him to wait it out in the ER. They offered to take him in an ambulance, but no, sir, not Mr. Fred.

The taxi was a more affordable way to travel. He never received annavenom and later just went home. Mr. Fred, what does it feel like to get bit by a snake? Can you describe that to me? There's a similarity of the same thing to all of them. The actual physical aspect of their fangs going into your skin and all is just negligible. Not much to it at all. It deals more like sometimes you catch yourself on a brower even.

You feel a little bit of, but it's no big deal. You know what I mean? Nothing big at all. And a wasp, when it stings, you have instantaneous, hot, searing pain sometimes, especially big old red wasp. Yeah. Well, they put a wallop on you. Only one time that I experienced something like that, I got bent on this thumb here.

It's messed up a little bit. Pinguail doesn't grow straight. It bends over. Yeah. And I've got different sensations to this. day that's messed up from nerve damage. It put a thang in under there and gave me a pretty good wall. Oh, it hurt.

So typically, what does it feel like on a normal snake bite? Like, you feel the impact, but then it kind of just moves up your arm, tension, swelling. The swelling starts producing a lot of uncomfortable pain. Deep aches or setting in. Okay. I know. But it's kind of gradual. It kind of just starts creeping up your arm.

Yeah, yeah. A lot of swelling. Yeah, and then discoloration. Some have more discoloration than others. I'm not sure what causes that. Why don't you tell me specifically what happened to your hand? Now, what kind of snake did that bite? A big Western diamond back.

Really? A little over five feet, maybe five and a half. And they had to cut off one of your fingers. Yeah, and I told them going to cut this finger off too at the time. See, this finger was ruined from another bite. Hmm. Can you tell me all the different types of snakes you've been bit by? I mean, let's just walk through them. Well, like I said, cotton mouth, copperhead rattlesnake, even the coral snake. It was a dry bite. I don't think I got one bit of venom from it. Okay.

And then the Pope's tree viper from Asia, they called it Two-Step Charlie. During the Vietnam War, that was a very popular thing. They were talking about Two-Step Charlie. They've seen guys get bitten more. They just fought. all over dead. That's bull. It's about like a copperhead bite. And so that's, I think that's five snakes, five different snakes. And then a banded Egyptian cobra. Yeah. Yep. I just said banded Egyptian cobra. Mr. Fred went into an elaborate story on getting bit by this exotic serpent and not getting any medical treatment, but I simply couldn't fit it into the podcast. I'll tell you about it on the render. they were going to got a dry bite from a king cobra only one thing but it opened my finger up literally to the bone

yeah he just said he got dry bit from a king cobra okay let me let me go through him again then copperhead water moccasin multiple types of rattlesnakes yeah pigmy timber addler diamond back and then that pit viper popes tree viper then a coral snake then a banded egyptian cobra and then a dry bite of a king cobra. So that's seven species of poison snakes you've been bit by? Yeah, but I didn't get any venom from the coral snake either. Okay, that's right. It was a dry bite.

I'd say that's a pretty good resume there for snake bites. Well, hey, I mean... You're still alive at 80 years old and good health. Folks, I want to say a few things. Every state has different laws regarding captive snakes and taking them out of the wild. Much of Mr. Fred's work was done decades ago. Secondly, I don't want to minimize or give anyone the idea that they shouldn't go to the hospital if they get bit. But I feel like Mr. Fred has earned the right to share his story, of which he didn't ask to tell.

I pride. One more thing on Mr. Fred. He has the utmost respect for snakes and cringes at their mistreatment or their senseless killing. Lastly, we're about to nerd out into some snake biology. and it's fascinating. But if for some weird reason you don't like that, I will ask a favor of you, and that's to listen until the very end.

The last story told on this podcast, you will never forget. Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls in building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts. Now, I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use. I'm not going to go, I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. is not going to happen. But when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for.

I have a great turkey hunting track record. If you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contests, right? That's who I listen to. I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps's cut, and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts. Check out Prime Cuts at Phelpsgamecalls.com.

I think you'll be glad you did, and you'll find out that the Steve Ronella cut is an easy-to-use cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good turkey noises and getting action. Dr. Chris Jenkins is a herpetologist with a long list of accolades. Aside from being a North Georgia turkey and deer hunting Jedi master, he's the executive officer of the Oriane Society, which works to conserve critical habitat for imperiled reptiles. and amphibians. He's also the host of Snake Talk podcast, which you should check out. I wanted to ask him about snake bites, timber rattlesnake biology, and what to do if you get bit. Meet Dr. Chris Jenkins. Dr. Chris Jenkins. I have always been fascinated with snakes and specifically rattlesnakes. In E.O. Wilson's book titled Biophilia, which is roughly translated,

into love of life. He suggests that humans have been so successful on planet Earth because of our fascination with living creatures and living animals. And that fascination has a pendulum. And that pendulum would go from like us loving puppies and koala bears all the way to a deep and almost irrational fear of snakes. Like we have this incredible relationship with snake as humans and have for like a long time. Why do you think people are so afraid of snakes? Well, the first thing I'd say is that while we as humans maybe want to put snakes into another category of animals or another category of nature, I have spent my entire career in the one thread that I see that goes throughout everyone I encounter is a fascination. And I always like to say,

Nobody's indifferent to a snake. Let's say you've been walking the same trail near your house every day. You see a gray squirrel. You might see 30 gray squirrels on that walk. You might get to the point where you just kind of, you don't even notice that particular squirrel. But snakes are different. There are very few humans on this planet that would be moving and they pass a snake and they

would do nothing. It just like just brings out these very intense emotions. and they can range widely, as you mentioned. They can be excitement. Are there other animals that do the same thing? I would think so. And they typically classify, they have some similar aspects to them. Like, for example, things like sharks, spiders,

maybe some of the large mammalian carnivore animals, people notice those. And to get to your question about fear, I really do believe that it is a. combination of genetic aspects that are in our DNA that have allowed us to survive so many years by avoiding predation combined with a huge amount of education or learning. So on that genetic side, while there are very few snakes on the planet that could eat a human now, it does happen, but incredibly rare, you know, historically there would have been very, very,

large snakes on the landscape that fed on primates. There's this snake called titanaboids, and you'd be amazed to see how large this snake is. And so there are, and there are studies that are confirming this, that there is a component of us where we understand that this could be a predator. But the more interesting part, and I do think that the bigger part is the learned part. I want to talk to you about the foundation of that fear ultimately is that a human would be bit by a poisonous snake, right? Let's talk about the probabilities of being bit by a snake. And as we go further, I want to specifically talk about rattlesnakes. What are the chances and the probabilities of being bit by a snake here in the United States?

You know, so first I would say that it varies so much across the country, depending where you are, the density of people, the density of snakes, types of snakes. But in general, If you take a state like Georgia where I live that is a, you know, we have fairly high snake diversity. We have six species of venomous snakes. We certainly have multiple venomous snake bites a year. Even in the county that I live in where we only have timber rattlesnakes and copperheads, we usually have at least one, if not multiple snake bites per year. However, I will say you don't, first of all, you don't want to get a snake bite, a venomous snake. bite. They're all different. The venom's different, but it can make you very sick and can kill you. But if you just

look at the raw probabilities in the United States of your chances of dying from a venomous snake bite, they're much, much lower than so many other things you do. The truth is, if you're going to go to a nature preserve and you're going to go for a hike, the most dangerous thing that you did was drive there. You have a much higher probability driving there. And most people are not petrified. to the point where they wouldn't go in the woods because they had to drive. I mean, there are other notable things. Your chances of dying, say, from a stinging insect

is much greater than dying from a rattlesnake bite in the U.S. Or if you want to go ride a horse. Notice he didn't say mule. Very interesting. And those things, people are probably, you know, have some fear around horses or have some fear around stinging insects, but it's not the type of horrific fear.

that might keep people out of the woods that snakes bring about. Dr. Jenkins, can you tell me about, on average, how many people in the United States die of snake bites each year? Well, I'd answer that first by comparing the number of people who get snake bites to the number who die. And so there are thousands of venomous snake bites in the United States every year, which might sound like a big number. That's actually not very big if you compare that to some other types of injuries.

might incur. In a typical year, it's only a handful of people, but it's certainly less than 20, and it might be much less than that. I would suspect less than 10. Your average, die from a venomous, a wild snake bite. So if you think about that, your chances are incredibly low. That number of people, more than that number of people, die every day in vehicle accidents. 330 million people in the United States and less than 20 die per year from snake bites. I mean, you have a higher probability of death by almost anything. What's so interesting about that is that our fear of snakes and our fear of dying from snake bite is like very large. It feels like in broad society compared to the actual data of the possibility of you dying from a snake bite. That's some really good marketing from the

from the snake bite people, I guess. Maybe the snakes themselves. They've marketed their bites pretty good to make us this fearful for this long, man. Yeah, no, that's true. Strong marketing campaign for snake bites. And I don't want to minimize, despite a low number of deaths,

still, you know, you don't want to receive a venomous snake bite. I mean, it can have long-lasting impacts on your life in a variety of ways. It can leave you maimed. You can lose, you can survive, but potentially lose certain limbs or have other long-term problems. But your chances of dying are very low.

I want to specifically talk about the timber rattler that is in the United States. Before we dive into that, how many species of rattlesnakes are there in the United States? Well, like all fields of biology, this is changing rapidly. But let's just say that there are about 32 species of rattlesnakes, some of them going all the way down into South America. So what I'm calling a timber rattler, and I'm kind of just using that as just the naming convention that I've heard people around here use their whole lives, velvet tails, timber rattlers, cane break rattlers. What is the scientific name of that species? Yeah, I mean, a common name, as you said, is just that.

It's a common name. The Latin name for a timber rattlesnake is crotilus horridus. You're right. when you mention cane break, people think of cane breaks sometimes as a different species. But cane breaks and timber rattlesnakes are actually the same species. But timber rattlesnakes can look very, very different depending where in the country that you find them. Describe the geographic region that the timber rattler is in. Timber rattlesnakes are an amazing snake in that I like to call them America's snake,

in that they are really one of the most wide-ranging species. You can find them historically. They're now gone from Maine, but historically you could find them in the northeast up to Maine. And then they come down all the way south into northern Florida and they go west into Texas and then back up north into kind of the northern Midwestern states, states like Minnesota and Wisconsin. So a really wide-ranging snake, they by far overlap with human populations, much more. more than any other snake in the U.S. And then we've just used them as such a symbol, the symbol of a rattlesnake on a don't tread on me flag.

Are there rattlesnakes on other continents? There are rattlesnakes on South America, you know, through Central America and into South America. There are many vipers. So rattlesnakes are a member of the family Viparaday. There are vipers on most continents in the world. It's actually thought that vipers came over the Beringian Land Bridge, you know, up in where we think of Alaska, like a lot of other animals. Shout out to Josh Spilmaker's Land Bridge mustache.

This is a bear grease render inside joke. You're all invited. And then really diversified into the rattlesnakes. And we think they did that somewhere kind of in the southwestern U.S. in Mexico. So we're the only, North and South America are the only places

that have rattlesnakes? Yeah, they are a new world group of species. They do occur on some islands still within North America, you know, islands off of, you know,

say the west coast and in the Gulf and the Caribbean. But in general, you know, they are a new world species. Talk to me about the rattle, Dr. Jenkins.

What biologic advantage does that rattle give a rattlesnake? Well, it's thought. Of course, we don't know exactly. You don't speak rattlesnake?

I know exactly. I thought you did. If we could interview them, this biology thing would be a lot easier. But no, with the rattle, one of the theories is that these animals evolved from some of these vipers that came over from Asia. They evolved in a landscape where there are large ungulates, things that might step on you. But the idea is that the rattle is really a defensive. mechanism. It's a warning. If a bison's near you or a human's coming around, there's some

interesting kind of examples off of islands, off of North America, where rattlesnakes have moved to those islands many, many, you know, thousands of years ago. And on those islands, there are no large mammals, no predators. And over time, while those animals are still rattlesnakes, they no longer have a rattle. So they were just trying not to get stepped on. I'm no scientist, Dr. Jenkins, but I'm liking this theory. It makes sense to me. I mean, clearly they're using it as a warning, you know. Yeah, I mean, that's some other good evidence is the things we haven't seen the rattle used for. So, for example, they don't use the rattle in luring prey, like a feeding type, or, you know, the males don't rattle to attract females. And if that was the case,

you would expect female rattlesnakes not to have them. Let's talk specifically about timber rattlesnakes. I grew up with timber rattlesnakes and just had a massive fascination with them. You've described this large geographic area where timber rattlers are. Are there places inside that jurisdiction where there are more than others? Can you tell me where most of them are? The timber rattlesnake, first of all, one of the reasons it's been so successful is it's been able to get into very extreme environment. So you do find them at high elevation.

I've seen them over 5,000 feet here in the southern Appalachians. And they go all the way north. You know, I mentioned, you know, Maine. Historically, they used to be in Ontario. But there are certain places where they're doing relatively well. I'd say one of the hotspots for timber rattlesnakes were probably a good number still remain, good densities still remain, would be kind of the central Appalachian region. So places like Pennsylvania, the Virginias, the other place that they're probably doing really well

would be kind of in that cane break part of the range down here in the southeast, down in the coastal plain. In many places, in the coastal plain, they're doing really well. But there are other places. I mean, I think in Arkansas, for example, in the Ozarks, you know, I think they're doing relatively well. They're probably comparable to this southern Appalachian region. On the flip side of that, there are places where they're doing very poor. And those are typically places at the fringes of their range. So if you go to the northern Midwest, Minnesota, Wisconsin, or you go to the northeast, they're

gone from Maine. They're gone from Rhode Island. There's one population left in New Hampshire, two left in Vermont, a handful in each of Massachusetts and Connecticut. So they're up there. They're one of the most endangered species. So if you were looking at a mountain in the southern Appalachians, is there a place on that mountain where you would go to find a snake? And I'm not suggesting someone go try to find one,

but are there places on the mountain like where I see rattlesnakes in Arkansas is in some of the roughest, rockiest, most remote country? I would assume that is because there are populations of snakes in that remote country that haven't been as harassed by humans, you know, that hadn't for the last 250 years been killed by humans that have seen them. And they've kind of, you know, have these hubs in these like more remote areas, rough rocky. Is that, Is my anecdotal observation hold true? I would think at kind of a coarse scale, you certainly would be correct. But at that micro scale that you mentioned, in areas where they've disappeared from or in very

remote areas, they're going to need some of the same things. And the other important thing to know about rattlesnakes, I always like to tell people, rattlesnakes have a biology too. People kind of minimize them to like a varmint where they don't think much about what they do. but rattlesnakes do very particular things, very certain times of the year. And so you're seeing them in very rough, rocky country. So there are certain times of the year that timber rattlesnakes will often focus on those types of environments.

Those are oftentimes, but not always, where they will have their overwintering dens, are in fissures and rocks, where they can go underground and escape cold temperatures. These are areas where the females go to raise their body temperatures in preparation for giving birth. Those are often the areas that animals who are going to do anything like physiologically challenging, meaning like if they're going to shed their skin or if they've eaten and they need to digest, they'll oftentimes go to rocky areas. And that's to raise their body temperature because they don't maintain a constant body temperature like we do. But the other piece of that is an observer bias, meaning that, you know, when you go to these rocky areas, first of all, it's a type of environment that you might key in on more than any particular little grove of oak trees.

I can guarantee you, though, over your years, you've walked by so many rattlesnakes out in these hardwood forests and just never known them. They're much, much harder to see. I've had snakes that have radio transmitters. So I'm following them. I know where they are. And I'm standing there in an open oak forest. And I've circled this area. And I know that there is a rattlesnake within like five yards in front of me.

And I have a technician standing five yards away. We're looking at each other. We know the rattlesnakes in front of us. We cannot see it. And then all of a sudden just like appeared. And I just realized that this snake was sprawled out full lengthwise in front of us. and I've seen tens of thousands of rattlesnakes in the wild. My point is that there is an observer bias as well.

Let's talk about rattlesnake camouflage. Your story is fascinating that you could be that close to rattlesnake and not see it. And I think many of us have experienced that. Tell me about rattlesnake camouflage. And this is really across many species, but timber rattlesnakes, I think of them as a hardwood associated rattlesnake. Those hardwoods drop their leaves and just produce this kind of canvas of a forest floor with just incredible complexity of texture, of color. And so a rattlesnakes body looks like that color-wise.

And also, interestingly, snakes have different types of scales. And rattlesnakes have what are called keeled scales, which means each of their scales has a little bit of a ridge on it, like a keel on a boat. that texture on their body is, you know, one of the functions of that is likely to help with a camphlodge. It's like they're wearing a gilly suit as opposed to, you know, just a regular camo shirt. It's like, it's like 3D camo. I mean, you know, like light hitting it. If there's a ridge, it means that there's two different angles on a single scale, which I think would create a visual nuanced difference in the way.

Yeah, 3D gillie suit. Wow, that's fascinating. I mean, rattlesnakes make their living not being discovered, Whether they're hunting, you know, they're sit and wait predators. They don't want, you know, say, visual prey to see them. They don't want potential predators to see them. They don't want people to see them. You know, you might walk right by one and they would never make a noise. If you discover them, they're probably going to use that rattle that we have talked about, this warning system and they're going to try to slowly move away. And the last thing they'll do is if you try to touch them in some form or get close enough is they'll bite you. Because you have to almost touch or step on a rattlesnake. That's one of the big myths that these animals are leaping through the air and chasing you down. A rattlesnake typically bite, and this is with the perfect perch, you know, great kinetic energy built up and something to push against, you know, they're striking half to a third of the length of their body. So you almost have to touch them to get a bite.

You said a phrase there that they're sit and wait predators, and that's the perfect lead into my next question is how do they hunt? And what do they eat? So how do they hunt? What do they eat? Well, most rattlesnakes and timber rattlesnakes eat rodents. As they get larger, they'll typically eat larger rodents. So you think of things like your little perimiscus, your kind of forest mice, squirrels, chipmunks, rodents like that. But they're not active predators in the sense. They're not chasing these animals down.

What they do is they travel through the forest and they use their tongue. You've probably seen snakes flicking their tongue. What they're doing is they're picking up chemicals in the environment and running them across an organ that they have in their mouth. And you could almost think of it like a really, really intense sense of smell to the level where a rattlesnake moving through the forest tongue flicking is probably like, oh, there was a chipmunk here probably three or four days ago. But a mouse came through here an hour ago. and oh, a human stepped right there four days ago, like really fine-tuned chemical reception type mechanism. And what they do is they go through the forest and they use those chemicals to decide where to hunt. So you have to think that they're looking for places that rodents travel frequently.

So you might think of a rattlesnake at the base of a tree where squirrels are frequently going up and down, a downed log that a rodent's running across or just other trails. And then they set up on these trails and they get in kind of a hunting position where they're coiled up and kind of primed to strike. And then they use the pits. We haven't talked about it, but these are pit vipers. And so they have kind of, if you look at their face, they have a nostril, but they have an extra hole there, which is the pit.

And this pit essentially allows them to sense. heat, which allows timber rattlesnakes to do a lot of foraging at night. But the venom, it is a fine-tuned chemical cocktail that rattlesnakes have for feeding. First thing it does is it allows the snake to kill its prey without having to wrestle with it. It's the difference between you being able to shoot that elk from 100 yards with your 30-0.6, as opposed to you going in and trying to kill it with a tomahawk. And you have a much greater chance of getting injured by that elk. They just strike, inject the venom, and they get away from that animal. And then the venom kills the prey. You know, then the prey runs off and the venom kills it. And, you know,

the snake then has to find that in a maze of rodent chemicals all through the forest. And it uses the chemical signature of its own venom to track down prey that its venom is killed. And then finally, most rattlesnake venoms and certainly timber rattlesnake venom is then also used in digestion. And that helps them eat really large meals compared to their body. So while their stomach and their digestive system is digesting from the outside, the venom is breaking down and digesting this rodent from the inside. The positive side of that as well is that a three and a half foot timber rattlesnake, his venom is not designed to kill 180 pound human. If we're continuing to build these rational ideas that make us not afraid of snakes, you know, you have this idea, you get bit by a snake, you know, you got an hour before you're dead and not to minimize it in any way. But like that venom is designed to kill a squirrel.

Yes, I will say that timber rattlesnakes of the venomous snakes in their range in the east are fairly toxic. Say, you know, a timber rattlesnake bite on average would be a much, much, much more significant. than say like a copperhead or a cotton mouth, some other venomous species you'd find. What about the age of snakes, Chris? It takes a snake, a FEMA, how long to become reproductively active, and how long can a snake live? So first of all, rattlesnakes, timber rattlesnakes in particular, live much longer than most people might imagine. There are timber rattlesnakes alive today that we know are overshunders, 50 years old. And we don't know what that upper ceiling is. Like you mentioned, female rattlesnakes,

they can take in kind of extreme environments, meaning like really far north, like high latitude or high elevation. These snakes can take eight, nine years, 10 years maybe to reach sexual maturity. And then the females don't give birth every year. They can go two, three, four, maybe in some cases five years in between a pregnancy. And so you can have some female rattlesnakes that, you know, they might only have two or three opportunities to have a litter of young snakes. And they don't have many snakes. They're not a, some snakes have hundreds, but rattlesnakes, timber rattlesnakes are not like that. You know, they'll have somewhere, you know, it could be five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, somewhere in that ballpark. they have evolved to have a very long life for a female rattlesnake to replace herself.

She has evolved a life history strategy that requires her to live a long time. That's fascinating. Fascinating. That's a great way for me to ask you the question at hand, Dr. Jenkins, is what do you do if you get bit by a snake? We run on this default mechanism that we think we know what we would. do. I mean, I live my whole life in snake country. So, I mean, anytime I leave my house and it's above 65 degrees, 60 degrees, there's a chance I can get bit by a snake. And apparently I feel like I'm competent enough to handle that. I don't know if I am or not. I've never been bit by a poisonous

snake. Tell me what you do. Clay Newcomb is out in the mountains by himself, coon hunting on a warm fall night and I get just slam dunk bit on the calf by big four-foot timber rattler. I'm three-quarters of a mile from my truck. I'm alone. What do I do? I won't go into it in great depth, but the first thing I'll do is tell you that you should have planned to not get a bite. And I say that doesn't count. You can't tell me that. I will get to what to do in that situation. will say that the most effective way to deal with a snake bite is to not get one. They're already very rare and there's a few very simple things that you can do. And, you know, as a sportsman or somebody, you know, say a wildlife biologist or a forest or somebody who spends a lot of time potentially

coming in contact with snakes, I would invest in a pair of snake gaiters. Many sportsmen wear them anyways. If you're in snake country, you should take that precaution. The other precaution, you should take is have a plan. Most outdoor people have a plan for different things. So what to do if you are back in the Ozarks and you get that bite? Perhaps the best way to start that is what don't you do? So there are so many things that people have been taught to do with snakes. You know, you could still go buy snake bite kits at Walmart that have like a razor blade in it, for example, to cut and suck. Don't want to do that. Myths about drinking out. alcohol, about using cold, about using electricity, like a little shocking device on the bite.

None of that is helpful. And in fact, much of that can actually have a negative impact. The other thing I would say is that about 25 to 50% of all venomous snake bites are dry, which means they don't put venom into you. Snakes, snakes can control or meter whether they deliver in approximately how much venom they deliver, but you have to treat it like it has because you don't know, and a timber rattlesnake could be life-threatening. The two key components to dealing with a snake bite in almost any situation are very intuitive. They're transportation and communication. You know, you could back in

the Ozarks quite a ways, and if you get a rattlesnake bite, it could potentially kill you. You need to have a way to call for help. And if you can, in most sense, situations have other people come to you. So in this planning, I'm talking about. Really, but don't, don't walk out if you could be, if someone could drive to you, don't walk out. You have this venom in you. The venom's going to be pumping through your body. And, you know, so you're probably increasing the chances that that venom gets to things like your lungs and your heart, things that could kill you. And there, but there's a trade off. You know, if you completely isolate it, say put on a tourniquet, then you're going to very like,

lose that limb that you have tourniqueted off. So I would say I would rarely use a tourniquet, but I wouldn't completely write that off because, you know, in Australia, they use tourniquets oftentimes. You would have to be really remote a long ways from medical help and think that you have a really serious venom dose to ever think about applying a tourniquet. Time is everything with a venomous snake, but the longer you wait, the more of those molecules are going to be attached to your blood cells and the more damage you're going to have. Basically, you need to get out of the woods as fast as possible, but with the least energy of the person that's bit being expelled. If I was in the cranberry wilderness in West Virginia,

very large wilderness, and I'm in the middle of it and I get a bite, and I know it's going to take me a couple days to get out. I think I have a serious bite. I am going to get on the or the in-reach, again, I am going to call for help and have them come get me. If I am on a relatively small day hike and say I'm less than an hour from the truck, I'm still going to communicate. I'm going to start shooting people text messages, let them know what's happening. I'm here and I'm walking out because I could pass out before I could go down before I get out. But I would probably try to walk out.

And, you know, I would do things like take off jewelry. take off rings, so I don't have constriction points that are going to cause a lot more damage. I might, if I had a bite on the hand, I might kind of hold that bite kind of not above my head to help the venom get towards my heart or not down low. So it kind of wells up in my hand, kind of mid-level, and walk out. And you always communicate with a hospital that you're going to go to. Even if you're coming out, you want them to know you're coming. Because the things that they need to treat you may not be at that.

hospital. The story you're about to hear is quite shocking and will pull the pendulum back from the lighter side of snake bites that you've heard about from Mr. Fred and even Brent. This one will put into perspective the seriousness of a snake bite. You're about to meet Lisa Damran from Northern Georgia. I think you'll agree after you hear her story that she's a pretty incredible lady. She's being interviewed by Dr. Jink. And there are a few details you'll need to know. The snake in this story is an adult timber rattlesnake. And Lisa is pregnant.

Here is her story. My husband and I had actually gone on just an impromptu date night. And we had just gotten home. And I pulled into the driveway, stepped out of the car. And on our date night, we had gone and gotten groceries because, you know. And I had stepped out of the car and stepped to the back seat just to grab a couple bags of groceries and felt the only way I can describe it would be extremely forceful. It felt like somebody hit me with a hammer that had a point on it as hard as they could. And I was wearing sandals and the snake got just me, no strap, no shoe, nothing.

So I felt it all. And it was so forceful that I remember looking up because I never thought that it had come from the ground. I thought something had to have fallen on me or something like that. And my husband said that I jumped back. I don't really remember because it's sort of, I think I went into shock. And he came around the car. And he said, I just kept saying, what was that? It hurt.

What was that? And it wasn't until he came around. And he said, oh, my gosh, it's a snake that I even knew what had happened. But I looked down at that point, and I remember seeing it curled up in the driveway. And its head was up looking at my husband and its tail up rattling at him. just warning him like to stay back. That point it went under the car and my husband told me to jump in the car and let's go. So we took off at that point.

So that's where we were. So see the bite actually happened on your foot is where it was. Yeah, I was on my foot on the top left side of my left foot. So you get the snake bite. Your husband said let's get into the car. How many months pregnant were you? I was 17 weeks pregnant. So almost halfway.

Okay. Through the pregnancy. So you guys get in the car and then what happens? He dialed 911 and took off driving very quickly down the road straight toward our hospital because we just figured that's where we'd need to go. But he also called 911 and as he was on the phone with them, they had called the hospital and found out they were actually out of anti-venom because someone, I think, had been bitten the week before or something and they didn't have anymore.

So they advised us to just go to where an ambulance was waiting for us. down the road. And when we got there, I was obviously very upset at this point because it was excruciating, but also I was worried about my son. So I was upset and crying. And when we got to the paramedics, they actually then could tell it was pretty severe and had called a helicopter in. So you were up here in the mountains at, you know, a small mountain hospital and the helicopter picked you up here. Yeah, they took me from here down to an hour away, so to a different hospital. So what happened when the helicopter landed and you got to the hospital in the larger city? Unfortunately, that's where my story gets not great. The ER didn't really know what to do because

I was pregnant. They just kept saying they weren't sure if antivenom was safe for someone who's pregnant. And it was a very busy night that night. I remember there being beds in the hallways, other patients and stuff. And so they left me laying there for a long time, many, many hours with nothing. And because I was pregnant, I wouldn't even take painkillers. And so I just laid there in a lot of pain. And every 30 minutes, they would come in and take a Sharpie and mark my leg. And after a lot of time had gone by, it was clear it wasn't stopping. And they were at least halfway up my thigh at that point marking. And they decided to start the anti-venom at that point. What was the pain level like, would you say during that part of the process?

The actual bite itself and the, you know, when the venom initially started to take over, was excruciating. It was like, I remember describing it like it was like lava was all over my foot while things were stabbing me and poking me and a lot of pressure. It was just, it was really interesting. I've never felt anything else like it.

So they make the decision that, well, to save your life, they need to start administering anti-venom, but they're unsure about what might happen to the baby. So what happened next? So then when I got to ICU, a nurse came in, the very first nurse I had, and she started asking me questions. Like, well, what did they say since you're pregnant? You know, there are going to be any side effects? Will there be birth effects, anything like that? And I said, they never did say.

They never really seemed to find out. And she said, I'm going to call Crowfab. And that was the first time I'd even heard the name Crowfab. I didn't even know what that was. I was like, who's that? She said, that's who makes the anti-venom. I'm going to see if they know anything. And she came back in the room within 20 minutes with all kinds of information for me, actually, that it was perfectly safe. There's no side effects whatsoever. So maybe feel a lot better about the whole situation. Unfortunately, because they did wait too long, I did end up losing my son. I was bitten on the 21st of June and on the 23rd of June. His heart stopped. So I was still in ICU. I spent until the 25th in ICU. It wasn't until then I was released and then sent to labor and delivery, unfortunately, at that point. So it actually took a couple days for your son's heart to stop eating, you said? Yeah, it was the 21st, but it was at 9, 15 at night, and then the 23rd in the morning I found out, so it wasn't long.

They were obviously monitoring him. Was it a sudden thing, or was it something that you all realized he was battling for life as well? It seemed sudden to me when I found out my brother, who's actually a doctor, was in the ICU with me just visiting. And so when they came in that morning to do the ultrasound, he knew. He could see and he knows what he's looking at. And so he actually followed the doctor out and asked, could I please be the one to tell her? And he told me, and then they actually allowed him to look over the day before. And his heart rate had been dropping.

Well, it seems like a big part of your story actually has to do with. what happened or didn't happen at the hospital. So do you have any advice for people on how they can be advocates for their own treatment in this type of situation? Yeah, definitely. I mean, if anyone hears my story, especially if they're pregnant and they're bitten, just know you should get anti-venom, for one. I didn't know. And I even had people texting me like, I've been Googling it, and it seems fine. Like, just even a quick Google search could kind of tell you that it's perfectly safe and the quicker you get it, obviously, the better. So for your recovery and for your unborn child, if you were pregnant, I have learned to be more of an advocate for myself and my family

in the medical field because, you know, I think the doctors are great and everything, but they don't know everything. They know one actually in the almost week I was in the hospital in ICU, labor delivery, ER, not a single person who cared for me had ever had a patient bit by a venomous snake that was pregnant, not one person. So, you know, they're not going to know everything. Well, I want the, I want the audience to know that Lisa and I are sitting at a table in my office and there is a cage between us with a rattlesnake in it. I could literally, if the snake was not in the glass, either Lisa or I right now could reach out and touch that rattlesnake. And so given this environment that we're sitting in, I wanted the last question.

I wanted to ask is how has this experience impacted how you think about snakes? Yeah, before living up here, you know, I knew that they were around and so we thought we were being aware and watching out. But I wasn't fearful or, you know, afraid of them right after the experience. I think given the fact that it wasn't just trauma for me, it was trauma plus grief. it took a pretty large impact on me for a while. I had a really unrealistic fear of snakes for a while there. I was afraid to get out of bed in the mornings thinking there might be a snake on my floor. I mean, it was just, and I knew it was silly.

I knew it was unrealistic, but I couldn't help it. I was very afraid. Now, after some time has gone by and, you know, I've educated myself and our children and things like that, I'm actually not afraid at all. I just, I've made myself get out. It took a little while. I didn't even want to get out in the woods and go hiking and do things that I used to enjoy. But I kind of made myself just go and do it and told myself it's going to be okay and it has been okay.

And now I actually find myself advocating for snakes a lot of times. I'll see people, you know, on Facebook make a post and people will constantly talk about them and say things like, only good snake is a dead snake and stuff like that. People love to say things like that. And I'll speak up and be like, no, that's not true, you know. I feel like if anybody has the right to feel that way, it would be. me and I don't so people just I don't know they're not bad they're not just be watching out I don't know I don't I'm not afraid anymore which I'm thankful for because it really was hard there for a little while but

I've gotten past it I was taken aback by Lisa's concluding statements of advocating for snakes and not living in fear I would say that her response is powerful and inspiring in conclusion snakes are a cog in the wheel of the human experience. They're part of our lives. They live in the woods where we hike and hunt. They live in our yards. They live in our dreams and haunt our unconscious thoughts. The ancient mechanism at work in humans creating this innate fear and fascination with snakes is undeniable. My mother, Juju, dedicated a fair part of her life to warning me about snakes. I now realize that my life would be incomplete without them and those warnings. It's almost like we needed a villain to learn the highways of human relationship.

My mother's warning combined with an instinct to not trust long, slithery critters, taught me to trust her, to obey her, which ultimately ushered me into successful human life. Where would we be without snakes? And from my dad, I learned that snakes inhabit the wild places of the earth. And what would a wilderness be without the possibility of coming on a big timber rattlesnake? I guarantee I will never not be excited when I see one. To me, they represent an uncontrollable wildness, which is something that I crave engagement with.

It's my hope that we've presented a balanced view of snakes that will garner a deep respect for them in two ways. Number one, they can take your life or alter it in a significant way. Number two, a wild place isn't wild at all without them. I encourage you to check out Dr. Jenkins' Snake Talk podcast to learn more about snake conservation. Long live the beast and the ancient human mechanisms that make us who we are. Thanks a ton for listening to the bear.

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