Bear Grease - Ep. 178: The Donnie Baker Story - Nightmare (Part 1)

Episode Date: January 10, 2024

On this episode, Clay Newcomb interviews Donnie Baker of Dixon, Missouri who was convicted of illegally killing a 204 4/8-inch white-tailed buck on the Fort Leonard Wood Military base in 2009. Donnie opens up about the details of the kill, how he falsified its location, and the unbelievable attention the buck received within the community. He then tells how he was arrested and interrogated by the Missouri Department of Conservation. This episode is a roller coaster that will make you think about how you cast judgment or mercy on people. Clay later interviews Dr. Misty Newcomb to discuss how, as a society, we choose whom to forgive and whom we not to forgive. Also don't forget, "Meateater's American History: The Long Hunters (1761-1775)" is now available for purchase! Connect with Clay and MeatEater Clay on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube Shop Bear Grease MerchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new field. Worldware gear at firstlight.com. After a ballgame one evening, under a streetlight, it was first time I seen him. The first time I seen him, I was 100% sure he was 200-inch deer, which I'd never seen a wild deer with a 200-inch.

And still, at that time, wanted to kill this deer ride. We're slipping into the year 2024 behind the dulled thwack of a bowstring as a steel-tipped arrow arches into the throat patch of a 204 and 4.4 inch drop-tine Missouri whitetail buck. This might sound like a moment of celebration, but you'd be mistaken if you thought that. For this archer, it was the beginning of a nightmare. On this episode, we're going to reveal the details

of an egregious wildlife crime. But we won't be talking to the warden who cracked a case or the property owner of where the buck was poached. We're going to talk to the guy, who squeezed the trigger, who devised a plan to falsify the location of the kill, and decided the only thing that he could do was lie. We will meet the man who in 2009 illegally killed a Boone and Crockett class buck on the Fort Leonardwood military base near Wainsville, Missouri. It's a rare occurrence when someone is willing to open up about their failures, but that's exactly why I was

intrigued by this story and this man, this poacher. However, as the hackles of justice rise on your neck, I want to raise a question of my own. How is a society do we judge criminals? How do we decide if we demand justice or extend mercy? How do we decide who to forgive? Because it's clear that each situation is treated differently. We'll learn that it has a lot to do with how the accused apologize. I'm interested in the metrics you'll use to evaluate this story. We'll be talking with an expert to learn more, but the answer of this should be evident

because you likely cast judgment and forgiveness almost daily. And the answer will shine deeply into our humanness, our value systems, and sometimes our own hypocrisy. And hey, if you want to hear all about, and I mean all about how poaching, this giant deer went down, then you're not going to want to miss this one. To walk up on him and grab his antlers, you should feel the most excitement you've ever had in your life, other than like one of your kids being born or something.

And I kind of had the opposite feeling. Immediately I thought there's no way that I'm going to get away with this. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is the Bear Grease podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant. Search for insight in unlikely places. and where we'll tell the story of Americans who live their lives close to the land. Presented by FHF Gear, American-made, purpose-built, hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore.

As I travel through Central Missouri, stopping at gas stations, having lunch at a small-town catfish restaurant, I'm struck by how mid-American this place is. The geographic center of America is Lebanon, Kansas, but I'd be tempted to think that it's Dixon, Missouri, which is darn near the center of the show-me state. And I really like Missouri. Like the gooey center of a cinnamon roll, the people are hospitable, genuine, and modest. They seem more trusting than the exterior parts of America. My trip up here started about a week prior. I'd been contacted by a guy paying Brent and I a much appreciated compliment

when he slipped in a few sentences that caught my attention like a mule when a feed bucket rattles. He wrote, I killed a 204-inch buck on Fort Leonardwood in 2009. I let greed in the thought that I had to kill him to be a man get the best of me. A buddy of mine posted a picture on a website and it blew up. Two weeks after I killed him, I was arrested at work, and things got bad. The message continued on with more details, but he insinuated that his life unraveled after the event in the bigger way than the confiscations and fines instituted by a government agency.

Something about him and the story caught my attention. It wasn't just the size of the buck, but a rare genuineness in him. I caught the whiff of a man who'd been through the ringer, and I figured he had a unique angle on life. At first, I didn't know what his motivation would be for talking, but I was about to find out. In my next message, I asked if he'd be willing to tell this story publicly. To my surprise, he said that he would. I want you guys to meet Donnie Baker of Dixon, Missouri.

He's 40 years old, a widower, a father of two teenagers. age children. He loves to run Beagles and Bowhunt, and by trade, he's a telecommunications technician. But before we meet Donnie, I would like to strike a deal with you, the listener. I'll tell you the story if you will keep in mind. So I'm asking you, keep in mind that he didn't have to tell us this one. He didn't have to tell us about one of the worst moments in his life. He didn't owe that to me or you. He volunteered. it. And in a way, he's putting himself on public trial again. We're going to hear the case and make a judgment. These events took place over 14 years ago. So our deal is that you just keep that in mind.

Now we're going to dive right into the story with Donnie. Where do you think a good place to start would be? Probably about the first time I've seen that deer. Yeah. It would have been in 2007. I was playing softball in Fort Leonardwood, and the guy that ran the league on Fort Woods, name was John Clap. After a ball game, he hollered at me. He was in, I guess they called it like a bird's nest or whatever.

It's a tower in between all the fields. He said, come up here, I want to show you something when I got up there. That buck was out there feeding. It was a big mainframe 10, and on its right main beam, it just looked like a softball, just a big knot. And that's what they called it with softball. The ball players that year, everybody had. eventually seen it. The deer was always down there by the end it was after dark. You know,

it was being illuminated by the ball field lights. And after I saw it, my wife and I were dating at the time. We drove around many nights looking for him and seen him, seen him a few times that year. He would have probably been closer to a 150-inch deer at that time. The story begins with almost biblical vibes to me. Like when King David looked off the balcony and saw Bathsheba bathing on the rooftop below. She was off limits, married, and David knew it. But something took seed in David's heart, and he began to devise a plan to apprehend the contraband.

This isn't exactly the sequence of what happened with Donnie. It was a different internal track towards violation. And as it turns out, there are uncountable, circuitous ways that can lead a man to it. Fort Leonard Wood is a 61,000-acre military base in central Missouri near the towns of Waynesville and St. Roberts. It's about an hour northeast of Springfield and two hours west of St. Louis. It's open to all kinds of hunting for people who have a permit and take a training course. However, there are areas where you cannot hunt.

And this is important to remember. Large sections of the base are off limits to hunting, and everyone knows this. This is common for military bases where the public is allowed to hunt. But what I have not told you yet is that Donnie worked on the base. He started the base's first archery pro shop owned by the military designed to service the soldiers and their families who wanted to bow hunt. Donnie was an insider. And if you're like me, you probably just got your justice and judgment scorecard out

and are keeping track of the data points. And this tidbit is not favorable. When you saw this deer, like what, what were you thinking? Were you thinking, I want to kill this deer? Yeah, and at that time, it really wasn't, it moved a couple times. It was close to a hunting area. There was a few people hunting there. He was coming out of a legit hunting area.

And I hunted that area. But honestly, when I went to hunting, I'd say I was probably the 10th person to see that deer. So when I went to that area to hunt it, there was, it just looked like the Walmart parking lot. You know, anybody that seed that deer would hunt it. And it just took a little, that was in the beginning of season, and that was it for him. So I'm sure the pressure or whatever, he went to wherever he hides. Like, what was your mind frame at that time in your life? Would you have broken the law before and you would have thought, I'd do whatever it takes to kill that deer?

Maybe, but he wasn't, I seen the deer a couple times after that and probably could have done something. But at the time, killing it wrong, it wasn't what I was trying to do. I'd like to kill that deer right. Killing him illegally wasn't, wasn't even, I really didn't consider it. I'm sitting on a brown cloth couch across from Donnie, who's in a leather recliner in his comfortable, modest home outside of Dixon. The room is full of handsome shoulder-mounted bucks killed by he and his son, most of which are archery kills. I'd shaken this man's hand for the first time all of 30 minutes before this conversation. I'm surprised by how comfortable he is telling me this story, and by how much it seems like he's telling me the real story. He isn't

justifying his actions, he's not defensive. And for this, on my checklist, he gets some points for genuineness. I'm mesmerized by every word of this story, literally on the edge of my seat. But I'm also looking into his soul trying to discern if he's telling me the truth. And I think he is. I ask him for more details. In 08, I'd heard stories of people seeing him, but I don't believe I ever saw him in 08. When 09 come around, summer of 09, everybody that hunts out there drives around of an evening right at dark to see where the deer are. I mean, it's just something you can do. There's a lot of roads on Fort Wood, and you can find something to hunt like that, and not lightening them or anything, but just to dusk. It's playing ball at the time.

One evening after ball, I make the circle in Army Street. It's a street that connects Nebraska and First Street. And after a ball game, one evening, under a street light, it was first time I've seen him. And that'll play into some of this as well. That deer had seen a lot of people. It wasn't as wild as some deer, I'm sure. The first time I seen him, I was 100% sure he was 200-inch deer, which I'd never seen a wild deer with a 200-inch. And still, at that time, wanted to kill this deer right. He gets honesty points by telling me the deer was accustomed to human presence.

Often people leave out parts of stories that are less flattering, adding in parts that make them seem competent. I think I probably do that a lot. Donnie didn't have to say that about the deer. And the steaks also just got a bunch higher in 2009 when the deer was now believed to be over 200 inches. I've seen pictures of this buck. He's a mainframe 10 point over 20 inches wide with two dagger-like four-inch kickers coming off the right base. He's got a big flyer off the G2, which is the second time.

And the cherry on top is that he's got a grade A American classic. 10 inch drop tine with a black lump on the end. You know what I'm talking about if you are a white tail antler aficionado. The left antler is a typical five-point side with a cluster of small drop tines just below the G2. The deer is a jaw dropper. And for any serious white tail hunter, the 200-inch mark is a pinnacle number that I'd guess 99% of hunters will never even see a deer that big in the woods, much less kill one. And as a culture, we've been messing around with giving cultural value to big antlers for over 150 years, so we know they make people do crazy things. But here's an analogy for the uninformed to describe the situation. Everybody sees money all

the time that they don't have permission to take, like when you see cash in a cash register at the store. And hunters see bucks pretty often that they don't have permission to take. So here's an analogy. The difference between seeing a 125-inch 8-point, which would be a handsome buck anywhere in the country, and seeing a 200-inch buck, would be akin to seeing a $100 bill on the table, which would be the 8-point,

next to a stack of $100,000 cash, which would be the 200-incher. It's a big divide. But Donnie wasn't planning. on taking the 100K off the table. He planned to earn it fair and square, and he had proven that in the previous years. But so goes the plans of mice and men. And I have a quick question for you.

Just think about this. Should the size of a buck matter in a poaching case? Secondly, a more personal question. Would you go easier on a poacher that killed a basket rack? 8.5. versus a 150-inch deer. And if you have a clear answer, tell me why. Let's get back to Donnie, though.

Here's a description of where the buck lived. Through the rest of the summer, getting into the fall, seen him, I think, six times always in the same place, or on the same street. With that deer, Donnie, lived in a little block of brush behind a dining facility. And this deer's in a place you could legally hunting. No, sir.

I never seen it in illegal hunting area. It was 100% non. It was a contonement area. There was a running track there, dining facility, people parked around there. I mean, it was defined. I mean, everybody that hunts there knows, you cannot kill this deer. So at that time, were you considering hunting it illegally? No, at that time, I set cameras where I would see deer leave that area going into hunting areas.

Because I knew, however he went of those hunting areas, he would come back the same way. He was pretty calm deer. And I don't know if I never did get a picture of him, never did get a game camera picture of him. At the time, Donnie was 26 years old, and he was a solid whitetail bow hunter and an archery expert. Remember, he started the archery shop on the base. He'd formulated a solid strategy to hunt this buck legally. However, an early October evening drive would hijack his plan and his character. And I've got a second question.

question for you. Does premeditated intent matter? If the results are the same, a dead buck or a crime committed, why does the intent matter? Just think about it. But we're going to go back now to the character hijack. Here's Donnie. October 4th of 09, I'd work till through the day I was allowed to shoot my bow. I could help people shoot and I'd go down the range to take my bow and help siding their bows and I'd shot my bow and I mean, I was dressed about like I am here, blue jeans, and probably, well, I'm sure it was cool evening, I'd say probably a camel hoodie. I'd shot my bow a little bit. I was driving a white Ford four-door truck with a topper on it.

I hit Army Street as soon as work was over and went, I was going to drive down through there to see if I could see him. And as I'm driving down Army Street, and it's not quite dust yet. There is quite a bit of light. I looked to my left, and he's standing right where I've seen him two or three times. I thought good grief. This good grief moment combined a new trio of circumstances that Donnie had yet to confront. He'd seen the buck multiple times over the last two years and never attempted to illegally kill it. However, this was the first time he'd seen it, number one, during the archery season.

Number two, when he had a bow in the truck. And number three, it was now a 200-inch deer that was in striking distance. standing in the ditch. It was a one, two, three, judo kick that knocked him out cold. Every encounter up until this point had been buffered by barriers Donnie was unwilling to cross. However, this one was new. I think biblical references are fair game here, because of the influence of Judeo-Christian

ideology in American culture, whether you realize it or not. Early in this ancient book in Genesis chapter four, there's the story of Kane who killed his brother Abel because of jealousy. Prior to the murder, he was warned to watch out for crouching sin. It reads, Then the Lord said to Kane, sin is crouching at your door. It desires to have you, but you must rule over it. This is a really fundamental and foundational aspect. of human life that people have to deal with. Whatever they want to call it. They want to call it

sin, evil, doing something wrong. Like we all have this kind of code that we live by in our cultures. The Bible wasn't the only book that talked about this, but it really helped introduce it to civilization. Life is a series of unfolding opportunities often out of our control, but we are in control of how we respond to those opportunities. But the age-old question is how much temptation can a person resist until they break their declared value system, until they're unable to rule over the power of the crouching evil. The ancient philosopher Socrates exhorted people to know thyself, which he was saying, be aware of your limitations, be aware of your motivations, and make educated adjustments

to your life based on this knowledge. The universal nature of the Kane-Able story is profound because its application isn't just in murder, poaching, or bank robbery. It's in the small decisions in our lives that no one else sees. On blood trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bed and there was a full of blood.

Oh my God, he doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors, where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper, from cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwoods.

Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, Iheart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Now we're back to Donnie in the truck with his bow within striking distance of a crouched lion.

So I drive in Nebraska, turn around, and when I come back, I'm looking over there where he was at, because he was 75 to 100 yards off the road. And he's nowhere to be seen. I thought, well, he spooked. And I turned to my left, and he was right in the road ditch on the north side of my army, I mean, right there. And that's when I put it all together. There's a huge culvert there.

It's almost the concrete bridge. He wasn't crossing over the highway. He was walking under it. So as I kind of hit my brakes, and it spooks him a little bit. he hops down to the timber line. When he gets to the timber line, in front of him are two really good bucks. It was a massive huge eight point with a little bitty brow tines and a really nice tin. So I pull down, there's a running track there and some porta potties.

So I pulled down to those porta potties, and I thought, I could kill it deer right there. And like I said, it was kind of, I don't know if you ever, when you was a kid shot at a bird sitting in a tree or something, just kind of, and then when you do kill it, you think, oh, man, that's kind of what I went through there. but I knew it was a non-hunting area. So I grabbed my bow and just jeans and boots. And look behind the porta-potties up this little rise and there was a big old red oak that had died and fell over.

And when I got to that red oak, I was considering if I should hunker down there or climb over it and as I'm contemplating that. So, I mean, at this point, you've made a decision you're going to illegally kill this there. 100%. And let me ask you this. I mean, I think every human has experienced,

A moral dilemma of being given an opportunity that they know is wrong and them not taking it. Yeah. But then there's like this suck, this draw, something happens that all of a sudden you cross into a red zone and it's something flips. Yeah. Well, at this time, Clay, I had seen, I'd had 22 in my truck multiple times from squirrel hunting when I've seen this deer. You know, if I had set out to poach this deer, I mean, I could have shot it many times. But when I saw that deer for the first time, I said, I've got to kill that deer. I mean, it just felt like that was almost a right of passage for people who think that I was a good quality bowhunter.

So I was going to have to kill this monster deer. There's some profoundness in Donnie's honest, simple conclusion of his motivation. He was a 26-year-old man, hungry for validation from the world around him. and killing a big deer with his bow was a pathway to gain respect. I get it. I remember when the picture of the first decent deer that I killed hung on the wall at the local bow shop and I soaked up any validation that I could get from anywhere.

Validation for grand feats are important in a young man's life or a young woman's life. But when they're stolen, the system is cheated and it produces the opposite of what it's supposed to. It's supposed to create identity and self-confidence and a sense of worth, but what it actually creates is insecurity when it's stolen. But let's get back to Donnie.

Here's what happened. So when I knew where that deer was going to go, I knew it was illegal, but never really give that a consideration. Just the only thing I was thinking about is want to kill that deer. I needed to kill that deer. Some reason, I just thought that that's something I had to do. And as I get to that red oak, I'm considered if I need to climb over it or hunker down there,

and it's just a few yards off of, it's a high line, and it's pretty clean. There's a little brush there. As I'm sure I'm moving around, and I look up, and that big 10 is 25 yards from me, staring at me. Well, he blows and takes off running, and I thought, gosh, dang, I mean, I blew that up. Still not thinking, you know, hope nobody's seen me or whatever. And as I watched them cross Army Street, I look back where they were and probably 35 yards behind them, that bucks stand there staring right at me, wide open between he and I. I really believe if he was a National Force wild deer, he'd have been gone to, you know.

I shoot a single pin HHA side. And I had had an arrow knocked. I knocked an arrow before I set my bow on that red oak trying to sidewise and I try to get. So I draw my bow back and he's still just standing there. I mean, he's looking right at me. I know that if I can fall it into his front end, high success rate of killing him. And I put that pin right underneath his nose,

just right about the top of his white patch and turn it loose. I wonder how long it took Adam after sinking his teeth through the skin of the forbidden apple to regret his decision. The bite initiated a sequence of unretractable consequences. Man's always had a problem with laws, breaking them, that is. But laws are the guideposts of societal security

designed for the well-being of us all. The truth is, is that everybody wants some form of law in their life to protect them and their interests, even in a time in America where we're talking about liberty and freedom and laws take away, all this stuff, which I am generally, absolutely in agreement with. However, I'm telling you, we all love laws, but we like to cherry pick the ones

that we'd like to break are the ones that infringe upon our personal freedom. And it's kind of bizarre. Human life is complex. Society's complex. As I'm sitting here with Donnie, hearing this story for the first time, I am struck with a palpable sense of remorse as the arrow drifts through the air and hits the buck just below the throat patch. Later we'll learn that as a society we demand remorse from the people who've cheated the system

but I'm way ahead of myself the buck has just been shot first thing I think is I shot him right in the front leg and that was the first sick feeling I got about it I thought oh my gosh should I just wound that monster deer and shouldn't even been doing this and that's still running through my mind when I hear him crash

and then reality starts setting in I thought good grief So I set my bow down, ease up to the eye, and look around, make sure there's no cars coming down the highway. There's nobody really in that area at that time, nobody had to run and track where I was parked with him. So instead of blood trailing him, I kind of stay out of sight, and I sneak down there where I thought I heard him crash,

and he's laying there dead. And to walk up on him and grab his antlers, you should feel the most excitement you've ever had in your life other than like one of your kids being born or something. And I kind of had the opposite feeling. And immediately I thought there's no way that I'm going to get away with this. There's no way that I'm going to get away with this. That's an interesting thought to slide across a man's mind moments after an egregious error.

The imminent doom of being guilty often brings the onset of Shakespeare's Macbeth syndrome. When he said, quote, I am in blood steeped in so far that should I wade no more returning were as tedious as going over A modern way to say that would be I'm so deep in this thing covered in blood that to turn back now would be as treacherous as continuing forward

and this thing brings Donnie to another juncture of decision what does he do now well as I'm looking at this deer it broke one of its brow tines off falling there. I can see where it's antlers that hit the dirt. And I'm kind of wiping around looking for that antler, expecting it to be stuck in the dirt. It's probably still there today if it hasn't rotted away.

And I hear car door slam. And I walked down and look, and there's a couple people pulled up to this running track, which is just 100 yards from me at the time. So I get that buck. He's right on the high-line edge and drag him deeper in the brush. And just sit down there,

and I'm thinking, my truck's blocking those port-a-john, sitting there with him. the keys in it, you know, this isn't going to turn out well. Well, these people get out, get on the track, and they're not there for five minutes. Seems like two hours, but now it's getting pretty dark. So they get in their cars and leave. I'm sitting there contemplating, do I take this deer out now? If I leave it, will it be found before daylight or somebody see it or coyotes get it? You know, I'm a nervous wreck. I go back down, walk out to, you know, try to, like if somebody were there, I just left or whatever. Nobody around. I reparked my truck

in a parking spot and think what I'll do is I'll drag that deer back where I went in the woods at, which isn't that far, but it's a big old deer. Guts still in it. I didn't want to get it there because I did not want to leave any evidence, you know. So I drag it back down to where my truck was. Nobody ever came to the running track. I back it up as close as I can right beside those port-a-potties to try to help hide me in it and all. And I get that deer loaded in the back of that truck with its guts in it, which was unreal. I get it in that truck, get everything closed up, and I start getting kind of a feeling of peace, like, I'm going to pull this off.

When I pull out onto Army to turn back to leave Fort Leonardwood, I see a car coming, I don't think anything about it, and as I'm easing up Army, it was an MP. You know, I mean, trembling, shaking, oh my gosh, they've followed me down to Nebraska, all way to Missouri, Boulevard, right towards the main gate. And, I mean, I went by many places that I would expect. the MP to turn around to go back to patrol, and he is right behind me, I mean, right on me. Follows me right out the North Gate by now, I think, I'm thinking, what am I going to say? They're going to pull me over.

You know, I'm just caught. And as I go by a gas station, they're all-star gas. That MP pulls into that gas station. That guy was going to get a pack of cigarettes or a soda or something, I'm sure. And I go on up to almost I-44. There's a car-washed parking lot there, and I pull in and get a, out and look at the truck and there is blood all over that tailgate. And the thought of that was where I made the mistakes that I'm going to make to get caught. The mistake I made was

shooting the deer. But then it gets in my head so bad, all I can think about is that blood and that N.P follow me. So I drive home and all the way home and thinking, what I'm going to do is I'm going to get up early in the morning. There's no more physical checking in. You know, it's all I can sign into my hunting area by a computer. I've got tree stands there. I'm going to take him out there, drag him out in front of that stand, gut him, break him all loose, give it about an hour, telecheck him, and go to the house.

Like I said, Clay, I've still not gotten excited over this deer. You know, the biggest deer I've ever killed my life, I'll probably never kill or even see a deer that size. I didn't kill right, which was weighing on me pretty heavy. there are a lot of options in the English language that could be used to describe what Donnie had done. I think the one he used is interesting. I didn't kill it right. And here begins the classic cascade of one lie being fixed by more lies.

Like a fox in a snare, it's a trap as old as mankind. So as I'm thinking about this, I get thinking about that MP and that blood on that tailgate. Will they be looking for this truck? If I drive this truck through, you know, everything's surveillance there. If I drive this truck through the main gate, well, they say, we need you to come over here. Check me out and see why there was blood all over my truck. So I set up all night thinking about this. And I devised a plan that I would just say that I killed it at my house.

So the next morning at daylight, I go out behind my house and a place I was allowed to hunt, taking back to one of my old tree stands, just fields and a road all the way to it. And I unloaded that deer, drag him down in the way. the woods aways, gut him, go back and get my truck. I get thinking, I've got to have proof that I was here. So I drive all the way to the next little town and get gas on debit cards, save my receipt, you know. I was getting pretty deep by now. Talk to a few people so I could say that the people would see me there. You know, that's dragging people into something that they don't even need to, you know, go back out. I love the deer and a cousin of mine, a very close cousin mine,

message me and asked if I was hunting. I said, yeah, and he said, you kill anything. And I said, yeah, I've killed a giant. And he said, send me a picture. So I see him a photo of it. Well, he's proud of me. You know, kill something like that, you know, and it's kind of his old stoffing grounds where this is at. And he was super proud of me. So he showed that picture, two or three people. Well, Fort Woods having a big buck contest this time, which I ran. So he gets a hole, he wouldn't know if I'm turn this deer in Big Bucking and I didn't want to do that and I said no I'm not going to do that with and he said well I want to see that deer and I said we'll come by the house and he had something going on he said bring it over here I want to look at that deer and I said I don't want a much people messing

around it you know the whole time I'm worried about getting caught at something and he's proud of me I drive I said well I'll be over in a little bit I don't want a much he said don't worry about it just bring it over here and see it he's an engineer on four learn wood and uh when I pulled up to where he told me to meet him at, ah, sure, 200 people are waiting to see this deer. And they were snapping photos of that thing. I mean, it was, it was, I knew right then that there's no way I'm going to keep this deer hit, knowing that it was a county record without a doubt.

Donnie's world was about to spin out of control, and the leading edge of the whirlwind was lies. And I want to take an official time out for a minute. And ask you, if you had done this, would you be willing to share with the national podcaster the minute details of one of the biggest mistakes of your life? This event is now so long in the past that he did not have to dredge it up. He's weathered the storm of personal criticism and character attacks over the last 14 years. I'm still myself wondering why he's willing to be so open with me. I'm not sure why, but I'm grateful for his openness.

I think it's pretty rare. I feel like I'm living through this, though I personally don't have to pay the consequences. Stories are powerful. Okay, so timeout is over. We're back in the game. And we've left Donnie in the parking lot of a gas station with an unbelievable amount of people who've shown up after he shared a picture with just one person. And I've also noticed that Casey's gas stations are on every corner of central Missouri. I'm sure it's the Casey's that they're out.

Back to Donnie. While that's going on, some of the people that I work with call me asking about this deer that I've killed. These people I didn't talk to. I didn't realize how fast that news would travel, but it was unbelievable. Asked me to bring the deer by, they wanted to look at it. So I went over there, and there's just two or three of the people working there. And I pulled around and kind of hid my truck around back, and they were out there looking at it. and a military guy that works in the hospital,

which you can almost see the junction down there from the hospital. Comes walking around the building, he points, and he said, I got pictures of that deer. And he shows me a photo, I said, boy, it looks just like it, don't it? And he said, oh, it's it. So I loaded up, go home. How did you feel when he said that? I knew.

I knew, I really knew when that deer hit the ground, how it was going to turn out. I didn't know it was going to have the snowball effect that it did. but so here's oh at least 300 people out of the gate that I've liked to I can't tell anybody what really happened you know how that works and it's horrible to kill a 200-inch deer and it was a nightmare from the beginning donnie just said two things worth noting I didn't know it was going to have the snowball effect that it did donnie's talking about what would happen after he got caught but also foreshadowing the rippers

of crushing incidents that would follow him in the coming decade. Stuff unrelated to wildlife crime and punishment. You know, there's a very American ideology that says good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people. You get what you deserve. Later, we'll explore this doctrine and why we all better pray that it's not true. The second thing he said was that it was a nightmare

from the beginning, but it just keeps getting worse. Here's Donnie. Well, that Ford truck, I put gas in it. When I come back home from Fort Wood, at 1130, I finally went. He'd burn a half tank gas sitting out there running with the headlights on people looking at the deer, which is just sickening. And not telling anybody the truth. My dad and my wife knew what was going on.

Really? So you told your dad and your wife? Yeah. What did they say? Oh, they... What could they say then? I mean, were they upset with you? Were they wanting you to, were they worried about you getting in trouble?

What do you think was going on? They had the same mindset that I did, I believe. Like, we just got to hide this. Well, no, that there was no hiding it by then. I think they knew from the beginning that this wouldn't work. Was your dad mad at you? Yeah, he was upset. My dad is a huge supporter of mine.

So was my wife. And I think both of them believe that I'd hunt that deer down and kill it. I think they both had faith that I could kill that deer right, you know. My dad looked at it, you know, but it wasn't. You told him, Dad, I killed this deer illegally. Yeah. What do you do? I mean, literally, what did he do?

Did he shake his head? Did he, he just said, boy, that's a big old deer to not kill right. And like I said, he didn't, he didn't jump all over me. Of course, I'm, you know, I'm an adult age. That's a big old deer not to kill right, his dad said. We haven't talked about him yet. but Donnie's dad is an influential player. I met him and shook his hand and looked him in the eyes.

He was wearing a pair of overalls. He's a humble, earnest man with a gray beard like a lion's mane. He's retired now after a noble career in the auto body repair industry. Donnie revealed to me that he was skeptical of me wanting to tell the world about his son's story. And I get it. He felt his son had already paid. enough for his sins. We'll get into it more in episode two.

Yep, this is going to be a two-part series. But after the death of Donnie's wife, Angela, his dad stepped up to help raise Donnie and Angela's two boys. Donnie and his father are extremely close. It's a long story, but now I have a hard question for Donnie. My wife wasn't as frustrated at me as I'm sure that he was. But I know my dad My dad thought I could kill

it. Would your dad have I mean How would breaking the law Have been viewed Inside of your family's world? We weren't big lawbreakers Really

He didn't I wasn't a poacher I hunted right That's why all my Pride's possession deer Are 130 and 40 inch deer I could So really you can

You can honestly say You didn't And I'm not saying I think everybody's Broken the law before I mean if you've hunted As much as I know you've hunted and as much as I've hunted.

People have, I broke the law before, but I have dedicated myself for most of my life to not breaking the law. Yeah. Really, you didn't go and kill deer illegally before this. No. I've never killed an extra turkey. I just, I can't think of, and I'm sure I have, but like killing deer off the road and stuff,

it just wasn't, I hunted hard. When you spend all your time in a tree stand, you're not driving the roads. And I know I've broken the law, I'm sure, but it wasn't something we were used to. It wasn't like I was just wearing the roads out, shooting deer off the roads. Yeah, yeah. Never with a lie, and stuff. Yeah.

I don't have a long history with Donnie to know fully if he's telling me the truth. But as I look into his eyes and have witnessed the openness of which he's already spoken, I believe him. I was able to look up his criminal record with the Missouri Department of Conservation, and they've recorded. what some would consider, including me, a few minor violations, like a ticket for not wearing Hunter's Orange during firearms season. I've done that, but not been caught in a few other things. So by the definition of the law, at this point in our story, he's not a convicted poacher, but he's about to get smacked hard, or is he? And by now you're starting to draw your own conclusions about who Donnie is, because that's really what we're all trying to do, right?

We already know that he's guilty, but what we're really trying to answer at the most simple level is, is this a good person? And from that answer, we'll make our judgments about him. We'll decide if we can forgive him. But is that even fair? Can a man's entire life be judged by one isolated incident. And I think most of us like the idea of saying no to that. But in reality, we judge people like that all the time, or at least I do. The law delivers a much-needed standard in society and a prescription of justice. But the law is imperfect.

And a human, a judge, a jury, an officer, has to decide how justice is delivered. It's really not straightforward at all. And from this position, all manner of injustice is delivered. It works out good for some and bad for others. This injustice is a major problem on planet Earth and has been for a long, long time. And like I said in the beginning, we're going to discuss how is the society we demand justice, extend mercy, and accept or reject apologies. We're constantly subject to politicians, athletes, movie stars,

and religious leaders who've messed up and are asking for our forgiveness. Some we give it to and others we withhold it. I think we can learn a lot about ourselves by who we extend mercy to. But good gravy, I'm getting way, way ahead of myself. Donnie's still got a giant deer in the back of his truck. On blood trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road.

I instantly thought it was a sleeping bag. And there was a pool of blood. Oh, my God. He doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors. Where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper.

From cold case files to whispered, suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season two of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, Iheart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Let's get back in the game. So I cleaned the deer. We're leaving in five days or so to Wyoming for a meal deer in antelope, huh? And I haven't heard anything about this deer for three or four days. You think you've gotten away with this? In a way, in a way.

So I took the deer to a taxidermist. He said, don't go anywhere. I'm going to cape that. I don't want them antlers. here and took it back. There was, I don't know how many, all my family come to see it, you know, and that's probably the worst part. I had in church on the Sunday morning, the preacher asked me about it. That was probably the hardest one, you know, it's rough. And I'm not, I'm not pitiful me at all. I mean, I killed the deer. And went to a, to a hunt in Wyoming for about a week.

So on the way back, a guy calls me, calls my cousin that's with me. He goes, hey, I want to let you know, they're planning on coming and getting you soon as you get back. They've been investigating this deer. So when I get back to work, I'm a nervous wreck, pins and needles all day. The whole day goes by, close up shop, go home not a word. I thought, well, maybe he heard false or teasing me about or something. Because I like I said, there was a few people, a handful or more, that knew where that deer came from. So the next day, I go back to work and pulled my Jeep up to the front door and was locking up the safe.

And I don't know, three or four agents come through and said, hey, we need you to come with us. And I said, I mean, what four? He said, you know what four. Anyway, they arrested me. Not forcefully. I knew almost all the agents in there. You know, and they knew I wouldn't put up a fight or anything. And we went to building 52, 82, which was the Game Wardens Station.

When we got there, there was, I believe, three Fort Leonardwood agents, a couple of Pulaski County. agents, a Shannon County agent, at least five or six. And one of them was a, it was a polygraph guy. Anyway, they, they opened up their computer and there's that picture that guy had showed me. And he shows me like five or six of them. They have you hooked to a polygraph? Not yet. Nope, they never hooked me up. We were just having conversation. They also had a guy that had worked for the crimes unit that could tell time of death on people. And they had brought him in, too. But they were there to get me, understandably. anyway so I said uh I told him I killed it where I said I killed it and he we went on

on for hours at this point you're still lying yeah absolutely I mean you you're just like a like a animal trapped in a corner you got no choice that's what you're thinking in your mind well in my mind I thought if they find out that I killed it out here federal insulation not checked into a hunting area my job maybe jail time you know I mean that that's possible yeah and I thought there's no way. I mean, I have to stick to this now. Did you not have any sense of just coming clean at that point when you were that deep and you knew they had you that time? Not in the beginning. No, no. I mean, I wanted to, but I wasn't going to in any way, shape, or form. Finally, after several hours of conversation, though steeped in blood, and knowing the return trip to honesty will be a difficult one,

Donnie knew that they had him. He had to turn back. The officers made him an offer, guaranteed him he wouldn't lose his job and told him what the punishment would be if he confessed. And he did. The 26-year-old confessed to killing the buck in the restricted hunting area and falsifying where he killed it. And I told him the whole story. It was the biggest relief I had, but I knew I had 500 people. I was going to have to tell this to as well. I apologize. And a couple of them that had figured out what was going on while I was in Wyoming were pretty, it was a lot. aggravated at me, you know, people that wouldn't have lied to me about it, I don't think. Then I lied to.

I had two cousins on my dad's side after this had all went down, and I'd lie to them too. They spent multiple nights while I was in Wyoming with a camera driving up and down that road trying to get a picture of that deer to prove it was alive. I had people really going about for me over this. And like I said, I think if I'd have been a poacher, them guys wouldn't have been doing that. If I'd been somebody, they knew that it was, you know, spot liar and stuff, But they would say, well, you probably did kill out here. But I lost a lot of respect from some people.

You know, they were pretty aggravated at me. And rightfully so. So when I told them that, though, Clay, I hadn't hardly slept since I'd killed that deer. It was one of the biggest reliefs. Even though I was... When you told the wildlife officers. Yeah. Yeah, it was a big burden.

It was a heavy burden, you know, to lie to everybody about it. The heavy burden of carrying a lie lifted when Donnie confessed. However, it was just the beginning of a string of events that would change his life. Now that we've heard the story, I've got some questions on how is the society we handle people who've done wrong, broken the law, or even just offended us. I've got a few questions for Dr. Misty Newcomb, who's got a PhD in political science, and a master's in human development. I think she's pretty sharp, and as many of you know, this is my wife. And as usual, she's got some good insight.

Here's Misty. I'm interested in how as a society we decide how we handle people that break the law. And not even just the written law, but people that break some moral law. How do we decide who we ostracize, who we forgive? What goes into that? Well, I think that one of the things that goes into that is thinking about forgiveness and thinking about apologies. A lot of times forgiveness is given when an apology is made. And I think inside of social science, a lot of times when you look at things that are kind of more common to us, a lot of times you're surprised by what you find out. The intuitive answer is not the thing you find. But with an apology, it's kind of different. It is actually exactly what you would expect. People, if I were to ask you, like, what makes an apology good? you would probably say the same thing that social science has realized a good apology is when someone takes responsibility and expresses sympathy or remorse for the impact that that has had on

others. That's like considered a good a good apology. And if you think back, the people that you probably find it easiest to forgive would be people who said they were sorry. Just take some personal responsibility. Acknowledge that it hurt you. Sometimes it's interesting to me, inside of forgiveness, it's one of those things that has a really powerful impact on the person extending forgiveness and also on the person that's requesting forgiveness. It almost takes you by surprise when someone is genuinely humble and exercises humility and says, hey, what I did was wrong. How does it work in a situation where like someone in the public arena that we don't know, we don't have a personal relationship with? And they may not necessarily have a podium to stand on and say, I would like to make a

formal apology to the world. Yeah. As in the case I'm dealing with here is I have a man who has committed an egregious wildlife crime. Yeah. And he has to go back into his community. Yeah. What are the people looking for? I think they're looking for the same thing. Did he take personal responsibility?

Does he exercise or express remorse? What would be the other options? And do you have some sense that he won't do it again? Yeah, that's big, isn't it? I think it's really big, is that the regret is significant enough, and he recognizes it's wrong enough that he won't do it again. It makes you think higher of their moral character. As I analyze my own self, which that's what I'm doing inside the situation.

I'm analyzing not what I've been taught or what I think I think, but actually what is it about a situation that makes me think this is a good guy and he's really sorry, or they should lock that guy up. I think what I really want to know is, do I think this guy would do it again? Do I think he's lying to me? Yeah. Do I think he is not taking personal responsibility? Because that's what lying is.

is not taking personal responsibility. Right. Or saying, I did it and it was wrong, but. That's why you said, what are the alternatives? And I think one of the alternatives is to justify or excuse it. I think it's really easy to say, here's why I did it wrong and give an explanation. But what it sounds like to the receiver is justification. It sounds like I'm saying, I did wrong, but here's why.

And it's kind of justified, and I'm not super sorry about it. Because we don't like that at all. No, we don't like that at all. And if you look at public relations and public communication, when people make apologies like that, people are very slow to forgive. Social science can be complicated, but it sounds like an apology is straightforward and intuitive. But why do so many people struggle with it? Why do people struggle with admitting fault? I give Donnie a lot of credit for owning up to what he did and taking personal responsibility.

I was surprised with how upfront and honesty was. But more than his words, it was his tone. I didn't feel like he was trying to prove anything to me. He didn't seem bitter. But he did tell me that the first few years after it happened, things were very different. But time has taken out a lot of wrinkles and put it into perspective for him. Defensiveness, justification, lying, a refusal to admit guilt is a form of control. An apology is a release of that control.

I think this is helpful for me to understand even for everyday life. The art of authentically apologizing is one of the most powerful tools the human can have. We could say that again so the folks in the back could hear. The art of authentically apologizing is one of the most powerful tools a human could have. That's some bear-gree stuff right there. Turns out, I need to apologize quite a bit. It's usually for hoot shaming somebody or discrediting their claim

for seeing some kind of wildlife that doesn't exist where they live or belittling Brent's beloved tricolor coon hound. Occasionally it's for more serious things. Here's Dr. Newcomb on authenticity. This is my Misty's personal opinion. I think we're pretty good at assessing the authenticity of fault because humility is something that I think is very difficult to fake. It's almost like a humility is almost like a fair amount.

that is released, that is not seen in facial express, or you can see through any external thing. You can see through words that are said, like two people could stand and read the same apology and one mean it and one not. They could have the same grin on their face. They could have the same humble remorse on their face. But we're like, he was genuine. And I think it goes right back to our humanness. Like we are more than just a compilation of biologian.

functions. We have a spirit. We have a soul. We're connected to something bigger than this biological thing we live inside of. That's what makes us human. Yeah. And we sense really the deep internal mechanisms of a person's heart when they say they're sorry. Right. Yeah. And I think even like you're describing it as a pheromone, I can't back that up with research. But I know. It was just an analogy, Dr. Huckerman. But I know, even if you're watching on TV. And so, someone comes out and apologizes, there's this thing in us that's like, I don't know. I don't believe it. And everybody has a response immediately. I think the best way to think about this is what would you expect from someone who had personally done you wrong? And you pretty much expect that from

everybody at every level. Yeah. If your brother deeply offended you, how could he make it right? Like he might actually have to fix what he did repair the car that he backed into. Right. He would also have to genuinely apologize. I'm very sorry for the inconvenience and not blame the dog that ran out behind him and say, it was my fault. Right. 99% of people would be appeased by that. Yeah.

And you kind of expect that at all levels, like a politician. If you're a governor does something wrong. If you're president, if your boss at work, you kind of. expect the same thing. Yeah, and there's always a little bit of tension until you get it. I think an apology is so simple, but it really has such a powerful healing impact. This was an interesting story to put together. I realized that I've not told the whole story.

There are many other avenues we could have explored, but mainly I'm grateful to Donnie for opening up to us. As I left Donnie's house after the interview, his champion rabbit beagles were barking in the background. His father walked around in front of the garage to arrange the details of who would pick up Donnie's son from school. But Donnie had to run back inside to get some sports gear for his son's ball practice, and I stood alone with his father for a few minutes. I smiled and shook his hand again before I left, knowing that he didn't fully understand or maybe even trust.

why I was there. I told the old man that I wouldn't purposefully do anything that would hurt Donnie and that I respected his son's courage and openness to look this kind of thing in the face and tell this story when he could have just let it lie. But mostly I respected Donnie for being a different man than he was 14 years ago and I think that would be hard to dispute. A phrase used in our context might be, is he a reformed poacher? A question meaning, has he changed his ways? And at this point, I do not have 20 years of personal history with the man to tell you if that's fully true, if he's fully reformed. I wish I could proclaim that, but that seems a bit irresponsible. But I don't think that's the best question. I mean, what does it even mean to be reformed?

that a fellow promises to never make a mistake again, only Donnie knows if he's really changed and how much. But I'll tell you that I do believe he's changed. And I do have decades of history with myself, and I can't proclaim that I'm fully reformed, though I strive every day. Donnie telling his story wasn't exactly an apology, but it was a display of humility,

taking personal responsibility, and I'm proud to now call Donnie Baker a friend. I'd hunt with him any day. About midway in this story, I said we better hope that we don't get what we deserve. It's possible for a statement like that to strike a person as odd because it would have struck me as odd at one time in my life. But I've come to learn that what I perceive as my own valor or the perception of a decent life is but filthy rags.

I sure hope I'm not judged by my worst day. On the next episode, we'll learn about Donnie's conviction and punishment, and the severity of it might surprise you. And things will get very personal, as he tells about the cascade of incidents in his life in the following decade. I can't thank you enough for listening to Bear Grease. Happy New Year to everyone. And as we start this new year,

I hope you'll follow along, Brent and I on our journey through rural America. These stories are meaningful to us, and I just can't thank you enough. Please leave us a review on iTunes and share our podcast with a friend this week. And please be sure to check out our new audio original on Audible.

It's available now. It's called Meat Eaters American History, The Long Hunters, 1761, to 1775. I hope you all have a great week. On Blood Trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road.

I instantly thought it was a sleeping bag. And there was a full of blood. Oh my God, he doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors, where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. where he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper, from cold case files to whispered suspicions,

from remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers.

Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, IHeart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.