Bear Grease - Ep. 184: BEAR GREASE [RENDER] - Final Donnie Baker Discussion

Episode Date: January 31, 2024

Clay Newcomb and friends discuss the controversy surrounding the Donnie Baker Story, engage audience criticism around "glamorizing poachers," and call out America's premier bear conservation event–Bentonville, Arkansas' upcoming Black Bear Bonanza event, where Clay and Brent will record an episode of the Bear Grease Render podcast. Featuring: Brent Reaves, Joe Wilson (World Championship Squirrel Cook Off), James Brandenburg (Black Bear Bonanza), Terrell Spencer (Across the Creek Farms), and Misty Newcomb.  Connect with Clay and MeatEater Clay on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube Shop Bear Grease MerchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. First Lights fieldware collection is made for the work that happens long before opening day and continues when the season ends. Products built for early mornings, full days and real use. Hard wearing where they need to be versatile where it matters. No shortcuts. Just gear designed for the work that earns the season.

Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new field. Worldware Gear at firstlight.com. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called the Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast. Presented by FHF Gear, American Made, Purpose Built, Hunting and Fishing Gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. So, hey, we're going to do it a little different this time.

I'm going to introduce everybody. We're doing it in Spanish. But we're going to do it in Spanish. Please introduce me in French. We're going to talk about Donnie Baker first. We're going to go riding. Usually the sequence of the Bear Grie surrender is I introduce people, we chit-chat, with small talk, and then we like fight off the deep desire to talk about the thing we're all here to talk about.

we're not going to do that today. We're going to dive right in. I do have a very, this is a great crew. This is an exciting crew to have multiple. Everybody's all been here, but it's not the standard crew. I've got, to my left, Brent Reeves. And in the building is Waylon, the Wonder Dog. Waylon the Wonderhound.

named after Waylon Jennings. That's him right there. Tree and Walker. Yes. We just got back from Kansas. He was tree in Kansas Coons. Yeah. Yeah.

So Waylon and Brantner here. Dr. Misty Newcomb, so great to have you. Good to be here. Yes. Last, yeah, it's a long story, but you're here. I'm happy I'm here. Yes. Great.

To your left, my neighbor, hero and national pastured poultry icon, Terrell Spencer, also known as Spence, my neighbor. Good to have you, brother. Howdy. Can I just help for a second? It's pastured. These are not a... You know, I get it mixed up.

I get it mixed up. To the chickens, they are not pastored. Not pastored poultry. Pastured poultry. You know, I have a former background in pastured poultry media. He does. Chicken feeds the world. Okay.

We made a film years ago about pasture poultry. Or APA, yeah. Yeah. American pastured poultry. Producers association. Producers. Association. It's a mouthful. It's a mouthful. Spence is also, at one time, was the national rooster calling champion of the APPPA. It's recently been the title that's been stripped from him

given to our friend Christian in California. Just killed his first black bear. Yes. This is a little bit outside the rails of what we're here to talk about today. That's Terrell Spencer. The Terrell Spencer's left. Man, it's like stack. This is like the dream team. This is like 19, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson's. I'm not just going to say about the Razorbacks, 94. Akeem Elijah Juan. We have Joe Wilson with us. I'm here.

Joe, I've got to introduce you. If you're in this room, like, there's, your life is much bigger than this, but there's like one thing that's connected to you. Joe Wilson of the World Championship Squirrel Cookoff. Man, I also live at the squirrel dairy. Okay. You live at the squirrel dairy?

we got to talk about Donnie Baker I got questions Squirreled Mostly about technique It's coming down the tree You know what they say about mammalian You can feel anything

Yep There you go To your left My friend How can you follow that up My friend James Brannberg Hello

Head of Arkansas Yeah yeah in Spanish Head of Arkansas BHA. Yes, sir. And I'm going to call you, just for sake of clarity and simplicity, founder of the Black Bear Bonanza,

which isn't entirely true, but you have a great team around you. We have a great team around us for sure. You were a part of the founding of the Black Bear Banan. There's a Planko. We'll go with that. Part of the founding for sure. Yeah.

No, James has, he's been on, he was on the old Bear Honey magazine podcast, and I like to talk. at James. That's what James is like a good face. He gives good. James is like a high level corporate exec. You wouldn't know it by looking at him.

You wouldn't know it by looking at this humble man. No, I'm kidding. No, but for real, James is a high level business exec in the higher-ups of American industry. Industry. Captain of industry. He'll be in India next week, for real. Great to have you. Thank you, sir.

But I was getting at why I like to talk to James. What I'm learning that's going to be relevant in next week's podcast is how, oh, wow, what a rabbit trail. Yeah. People that are really good in business are good listeners. Oh. James is a good listener. Some people are.

He's also a good talker. Sometimes. He's also a good talker. And my name's Clay Newcomb. man so donnie baker we're going to we're going to do the order a little bit different I want to I just want to jump right into it yeah I almost don't I don't want to give a spiel so I'm not I want to hear your first impressions my impression is as I sent Brent Reeves a message the other day telling this was your best work

Mm-hmm. Everything leading up to this was fantastic. Great history, amazing stories. But this story, I think, went way deeper than a guy shooting a 204-inch buck. And I think it gives guidance to all of us in our life because that buck, as we found out in episode two, it was just one little thing. Mm-hmm. that led up to the story and you could substitute that buck for all kinds of problems in your life. But yeah, I thought it was fantastic.

You did a great job. Donnie Baker could be my friend any day. Yeah. That's what's, that's what is, there's so many parts of this that are so interesting to me. And I learned this story in the same way, really, that the listener did. Like, this is not a story that I grew up with. I didn't know Donnie. I knew very little about his story before I went to his house to interview him.

Told him before the podcast, I said, Donnie, I don't know if I can use this or not. It was because I didn't know the whole story. And I was trying to evaluate what story was kind of sitting in front of me. I knew it was interesting. I'm interested in Big Deer. I'm interested in, apparently I'm interested in people that break the law. And I honestly, I told him that I said, Donnie, I'm not sure I can use this, but I want to talk to you. And he was like, that's great, Clay.

I'm glad to tell the story. You do whatever you got to do. If you can use it, use it. If you can't, no problem. But it was pretty obvious as you went along, though. I mean, I'm sure as you were talking to him, what was the interesting part of, about what happened to him. Because I'm sure as you were talking to him,

it was, you know, you can sit and talk to somebody and hear a story of them killing a big deer and be like, oh, that's cool. But then as you kind of brought us all along in it and kind of, I mean, what I appreciated about it, to Joe's point, I thought it was your best work that you've done so far. And you helped us see all the different

components of it like a rope that all kind of braided together to make the story of his life. And they all had to be there to get him where he is today. Yeah. And we lose that a lot of times when we hear stories about this or we just see the headline. Man poach is giant deer. Yes. There's way, way, way more to it. And see, and that's a good point.

And what's interesting, I said it, I didn't say it on the first surrender. I'll say it on this render. I did less in the interview with Donnie Baker than I ever do with someone. I was wondering that if it all fell together. Hey, that was his story that he put together all on his own. I mean, sometimes you hear someone's story and people are so close to it and an outside eye comes in and you kind of put it together. Yeah. And the person hears it and they're like, yeah, yeah, that's, like, that's the way it happens.

but maybe there were some conclusions. I don't know. There's some things that you kind of weave together. Donnie Baker told that I asked Donnie Baker honestly one question, and that was, where do you think we should start, Donnie? I intentionally left that in, which I usually would have cut it out. I intentionally left that end because I asked him that and he started talking. And I was a part of the conversation.

Like I asked him specifically about, you know, just questions like, what were you thinking? Did you, you know, I did ask him questions. But I'm telling you, he started talking and he ended. And I talked to him for two hours. So you guys heard, I think, 27 minutes of Donnie. These are things on the editorial side that I see. On the first episode, you heard Donnie talk for 27 minutes. The episode was 55 minutes.

long. So you heard me talk for as long as you heard Donnie talk. Story of Misty's life. I was a pretty good average. On the second episode, we only heard Donnie talk for 22 minutes. So you heard about half of the interview. But that's what made the most sense to me. And even the sequence of it.

A lot of times on a story, I have to sequence it. Like maybe they tell something that actually chronologically came the end. Right. But that needs to be in the beginning for it to make sense. It sounded like he was loaded up and ready to fire for a while. Yeah. And you become that broadcast that would air it out to like-minded people,

which I think you did well. But he needed to get it out there. Maybe it was to get it out there once and for all to show people, this is who I was, this is who I am. and maybe you don't need to walk down the same road as I walked down. Yeah. Which I think that's how I took it personally. Like he was showing us, everybody's got a little outlaw in them,

and he used it that day, found out he didn't want to be an outlaw anymore. Yeah. You know? I think the second he released that arrow, he knew. He knew. And when he said that in the first episode, Clay, that part, and I texted you this, a part about, I'm sure we've all shot at a bird on a tree limb. Yeah.

I mean, that was just like, that was just like he had cracked open my head and looked inside and like read my life story or something. You know, I remember, you know, the first, I think the first animal that I ever killed as a little kid, you know, shooting a BB gun. I shouldn't have been shooting in a place I shouldn't have been shooting it. and how I felt and it just took me right back to that moment

and I was like, I knew exactly how he felt when he let that arrow go. Yeah. He just had walked up to the edge of something to see if he could do it. Yeah. And just in that split second,

temptation overcame him and the arrow flew and he instantly, like when Adam took a bite of the apple. Yeah. He knew. There was no going back. He knew there was no going to have to buy clothes.

Yes. Dang it. Well, in that, the analogy of shooting the bird and regretting it immediately probably could be a major literary mechanism in a book to just describe what all of us have felt, whether you've actually killed an animal or not. but just that instantaneous regret even in the act of something that you know you can't take back. I shot that bird. You shoot that bird?

Yep. I remember shooting that bird and it was so light that it stayed on the leaf. It's just a little yellow bird. And I remember crying at that bird going in, grabbing my mom's gravy spoon, digging a hole, putting that little bird in there and saying, I ain't ever going to shoot a bird again. And that lasts about an hour. Maybe it's yellow bird. I just, I remember when I heard it just like you, I knew exactly what's shooting that bird

man. Anybody, a lot of folks could identify with that. And it wouldn't, maybe it wasn't even killing an animal. Maybe it was cheating on a test at school and you get home and you make a, you make a hundred on it. And you get home and your mama's so proud of you. And then you realize, you know, I didn't do that right. She's proud of me.

She's proud of that kid that was sitting beside me that, I copied off of, which was me, people. I did that too. People copied off of me in school a lot. They're in prison now. Spence, what do you think? Just like first impressions. Yeah, I just, I felt like it was almost cleansing for him.

Like, I didn't see it so much he was telling everybody. I felt more like he was doing it for himself. And I've had stuff that I've done that I'm ashamed of. You know, I mean, we all have. And I think there's just, you know, I've got a church group. and even just a couple years ago going through stuff that had been hidden. And I've seen other guys share that. Like, it's just, it's cleansing to get that to unburden yourself.

But in it, I don't know. I think I saw it more as Donnie was doing this for Donnie than he was to, like, clear his name or anything. And that might be me putting my own stuff on it. But that was just initially what I, and I just, you know, I just appreciate. when people change, you know, like, and so often people change for the worse. And it's rare to see a grown man just completely change. And it wasn't just that. It's, you know, later he talked about his wife having cancer and he talked about, you know, he was a knucklehead. With as a family, he wasn't leading his family, he was horsing around, not taking it serious.

But even that, you know, it's like he got popped again in life. And instead of shrinking back or collapsing in on himself, he kind of rose up. And it's just really admirable to me, you know? Mm-hmm. So I admired them for that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ms. Newcomb? Well, you know, I think it's a, it's really fascinating to me to see the impact that the story's had on people.

And I've wondered a lot, like, why is this story different? Because I do think that not every story that every poacher tells is going to be this endearing, you know? Like, it's not going to have this impact. And I don't think everyone responds this way. And I don't think that everyone, I think that everyone, I think. think that there's like all these events in Donnie's life that that kind of shape a person. And and that's what you're, the Donnie that we're hearing from in this podcast is a different person than the Donnie that shot the deer. And there's a whole range of things that happened

that produced who's talking on this podcast. And so to me it's kind of fascinating to watch honestly like the power of suffering and whether whether that suffering is directly linked to him shooting this deer or not, like his wife's, that situation, that's not necessarily, that's not, it's not like that is an outcome of, of this, what he did with the deer.

Yeah. But that it produced something in him and that changed his perspective of how he saw that part of his life. And I think that, you know, suffering is a very humbling thing.

And he did suffer from what the deer situation and he did suffer. from these other situations. And I think that humility is something that when you see it in people, you can you can relinquish a lot of guilt, a lot of blame, a lot of, you can take it away from them. You know, you can. It covers over some stuff.

It does. And I don't know why. But I think it does produce something in people if they, you know, depending, because some people get bitter when they suffer. Some people get angry when they suffer. But if you can let it shape you, you know, like a river and a canyon, then it can actually produce something really good. And to me, I think that's the thing that I see inside of this is that suffering,

produce something in him that people want. People find endearing. It moves people. And you can almost, it allows you to look at his life differently than just seeing that thing that happened. I was going to try to say the same thing you were, but I'm not a doctor. On blood trails, the stories

don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bed and there was a full of blood. Oh my God, he doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors, where the terrain

is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper, from cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest.

Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, IHeart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Is there more? Well, that's all I was going to say is just I think that that's what, that's the thing that's actually impacting here is what that produced. The theme of human suffering is something that man, since,

it's the beginning of time in all cultures, in all literature, in all movies, in all conversations. It's the theme of mankind. Yeah. It's suffering. And it's so ironic because the intent of every morning, every human life, we wake up and we try not to suffer. I mean, we try to do things that are beneficial for our families that are beneficial for us. We try to avoid suffering. But the ironic thing is, is that suffering is actually.

the crucible in which character and all the things that actually matter in life. Yeah. Happen. I mean, there's just no way around it. And how we respond to that, that difficult, and suffering could be described is not always like the death of someone really close to you.

Suffering is, comes in, it's scalable at all levels, scalable to, you know. It's all relative to what, what you're talking about. Exactly.

I mean, there's really big macro, suffering of yeah like the death of a family member or or or you have cancer yourself down to suffering of you know you don't get to go eat out because you're you're saving money and you're you're you're sacrificing for something and some people could view that as some level of suffering or whatever but yeah what what stood out to you brent about the psych the if you could okay let me let me say this i have never gotten in it one single day and probably never will again,

the amount of text messages from grown men, some of them in this room, who texted me or messaged me, contacted me, saying that they cried in their truck. About the walk into Lowe's. Yeah, it was a little awkward.

I was in the, you know, I called you right after, I was still in the driveway and just listened to it. And I was already getting text messages just from other people that don't have your phone number. Like, this is the best one I've ever heard.

So when I quit snibling enough that I can make sense and give you a call, it's such a human story. Yeah. There's no way you can live on this planet to an adulthood and not be able to identify with hardship and levels of it. if the worst thing that ever happened to that guy was him shooting a 204 inch deer and getting caught. Being five to $114. He would be a happy guy.

But that is an insignificant blip. It ain't even a ripple in the hardship of life that he had to go through. And he put all that stuff in perspective. And to me, it was, I was endearing with his navigation of hard. hardship and keeping his eyes focused on his kids. Because kids to me are, that's what I have fought for for my whole life, my whole career. I was fighting every day to try to take care of a kid that somebody else wasn't taken care of.

And that, the focus on that is what really stood out to me. Because he had, he didn't have every right. No one ever has the right to be bitter. They have reasons why they're bitter. I don't think you have the right to be bitter. I don't think you earn a right to be bitter and hard and cold. But he had every reason that he could have been that way. But he chose to keep going and fight through it.

And I still say I still hold of my gun. You know, I'm, I am so for the law enforcement. Yes. That if you plead not guilty to something and then you get found guilty, they ought to try you again for perjury because obviously you lied. I don't think this guy is a poacher. I think he violated the law. I think he's a violator.

A poacher to me is somebody that leaves their house with intent to go do it. And I set it on the other render. But that just kept coming back to me. I just don't, I don't see him that way. I didn't see it that way at all. And that being a violator makes them human. Yep. Like every one of us in this room is a violator.

Everyone that listened to this podcast is a violator. Yeah. And I broke chicken laws, Spence. I broke a lot of laws. Is there anything? Do you think of them about? Do you make the truth? Do you not have to incriminate.

Yeah, it's a, but there's, I don't know, it just, and that's the humanity, right? Like, I think the stories that touch us on that deep level, like, some of this remind me of the book of Job, you know, and you see a guy rise up and it's, it's identifiable, you know, a guy that, you know, you mentioned David and Bathsheba or sin crouching at your door. We've all done that, whether it's a test or whether it's something in business and as soon as or the bird, whatever, we've all done that. And I think what, it's rare you hear a story that's just so identifiable, and it ends up going the right way.

And I think for me, when I heard Donnie's story, it was the reason it touched me is is because that's how I would like to think I would react. Right. If I don't feel sorry for it. Like, I admire him. Yeah, exactly. I don't feel sorry for anything that happened to him. I sympathize and I empathize with him, but I admire how you come through it.

Okay, let me, I'm going to paint a picture for you, and I want to tell you what you guys would do in this scenario. Say there was a national podcast that told the story of a poacher. In this podcast, the intent of everybody that's ever been on it was for the benefit of wildlife, wild places, adherence to the law, and integrity. And actually, a big theme inside of the whole podcast was

integrity and character. Let's say that guy that had that podcast interviewed a man who'd committed an egregious wildlife crime.

And at the end of that, everyone felt sympathy for the poacher. How do you justify this? I got you. I'm ready to talk about this. Do you hear what you said? I mean,

Like if you were an alien from another planet and you looked in my head and you looked at my life. Yeah. Like I never had an outlaw stage. Like I've broken the law. I never, I had a guy tell me the other day he said, he didn't know me. And he said, Clay, you're fascinated with poachers. Either you're an old poacher or you are so not a poacher that you're peering into this realm with like a lot of curiosity. And I don't want to paint myself like a saint.

But I mean, I'd never did stuff on purpose illegally, ever, even being exposed at a high level to hunting in rural America when everybody around me was. I say that to say, if you looked inside my, an alien could scan my head. I'm kind of an alien. Okay. And why? So how can we justify this? Because the only, you know, I've got very little criticism for this. public, you know, and how much criticism actually reaches you is hard to evaluate.

Like, we just have these platforms that people can communicate. But I've had some people say you were glamorizing poaching. Let me say, I would like to say that it was a human story. But for a listener, I think we listened to it as Americans. And as Americans, you've showcased it throughout your entire three seasons or whatever. how that outlaw, the frontiersman, the guy who's going to take a risk, the chance, all of that, that's a very American thing. I'm sure other countries have those kind of people.

But as Americans, we like to see suffering and learn from it, whether it's in sports, the guy that pushes the extra mile. You know, you look at those marathon guys, and maybe they're just struggling to get over the line. We admire those people that struggle. I will be the first one to say, I don't believe you find success without suffering. I think that if you don't suffer as a small business person, you're probably not going to have a successful business. It's real hard for us to look at people who are born with wealth

and think that they earn something. We want to see them suffer. It gives them some street cred, you know. And so as an alien looking down at Clay, my opinion would be that story taught us how to do things right. We've listened to his whole spiel. We feel like we know this guy. I don't know what he looks like. When I first heard Donnie Baker, I was thinking of the comedian with the mullet.

Man, Donnie is something else. but wouldn't have been awesome if that was Donnie. I think Donnie probably looks like all of us. You know, I think his day-to-day activities are like all of us. And we learned that don't be like Don't be like Donnie in that one instance. But if you can recover from sacrifice like Donnie did, that's a high prize right there. Well, if I understand the story right, if I was listening to all the the legal issues part of it.

The only thing he did was shoot that deer in a zone in the wrong spot. Because it was during deer season, did it with archery, legal archery tackle. And he had, yeah, he had a right to hunt on the base.

Right, so it was just one spot. So, I mean, that is just one. Well, and then illegal falsification of where he killed it,

which was big. So there's two major. Correct. But as far as the act of what he did of shooting that deer, the only thing he did wrong was in the wrong. spot but he knew it i'm not i'm just saying it wasn't like you talk about intent and all that stuff

and he didn't do it at night he wasn't with a rifle on top of a building like there's been a little miscom or a little misunderstanding with some people and i've heard it enough times that it's worth clarifying people have heard me say donnie didn't have intent and they're like well yeah he did he shot a deer with his bow he didn't just sling an air into the woods and it actually and they hit it. It would have been better if I said premeditated intent. And I said basically I was saying intent matters. And yeah, but there's not even a debate that premeditated intent matters with punishment in the law.

Murder one, murder two. We know this from our 1990s rap days, right, Misty? That's right. I thought you're going to say law and order. Well, law and order. But also follow. and, you know. Probably more law and order.

Law and order, yeah. We got a lot of questions about Clay Newcomb now. I'm not well versed on the gangster app. It explains the two-pack shirt he's ordering right now. Murder one, murder two. Clay, I thought it was some of the criticism that was like, you're glorifying, poaching and lawbreaking. And I don't, I don't understand that point of view.

Yeah. Because there was nothing that was glorified about the illegal thing that Donnie did. Right. You know? It wasn't like we were saying this is cool. Exactly. I think we were invited as listeners to have empathy for what he had gone through. We were also invited to put ourselves in his shoes and think about times when we had been tempted and how had

we reacted. It could have been, you know, whether you were tempted to poach or tempted to, you know, knock a couple strokes off your score on a certain golf hole or, you know, whatever the case is going to be, right? You're always presented with temptation and, you know, the magnitude of the sin, so to speak, or the transgression probably kind of informs how you react and what you do and things like that. But there was nothing glorifying about the conversation at all. And that's what, you know, I think I think anybody who listens hopefully to this render and had made the decision not to listen to those two podcasts because it was glorifying poaching, I would just, I would just ask them to listen to it from the way.

the standpoint of trying to learn something about yourself and about humanity, almost like you're having a mirror held up to yourself. Because I think that's what you really did with these is you kind of held a mirror up to all of us and said, give yourself a look and think about what you would do in the situation or remember that time in your life when you were tempted. and did you live up to what you wanted to do? Could you have done better? Are you doing better?

I mean, this is all stuff that I've kind of taken away from it. So it really, that one piece of criticism that I saw, I think that you're talking about, of, you know, it was glorifying lawbreaking. I just, I don't think that was right. I don't want to say too much because tax season's just around the court. it is if you're behind I think what people would say, well,

what is, well, there's kind of a philosophy and it would be clear is that, you know, nobody knew Donnie Baker's name before this and now they do.

So that would be glorifying a poacher. But the way, you know, I got, I got to give credit to my buddy, Steve Ronella, in some ways, not directly for Donnie Baker. He didn't know anything about it before it happened and whatnot. But years ago, I remember asking Steve about some controversial stuff, stuff that I've done that actually made the air. And for instance, in the Warner Glendale, I brought up a little bit about the border wall.

We were hunting right on the Mexican border. we were like looking at the border wall we were finding immigration illegal illegal evidence of illegals all just strewn over the landscape and I was like hey I shouldn't talk about this right and he was like why not you talked about we were down there hunting didn't you and I was like yeah it's like all we talked about it and he was like talk about it yeah several other times I I messaged Rinella one time and said, Hey, is it okay if I play a clip of

of an Alabama governor that was the lead racist in the world for a while? George Wallace. George Wallace. And his infamous speech about segregation forever.

Like, I put it in there and then I was like, holy cow, I'm broadcasting George Wallace's voice. I'm literally messaged Rinella and said, can I put that on there? And he was like, why wouldn't you? It's part of the story.

It's building. I mean, and he obviously knew that it was going to tear that down. That gave me the confidence to stand in a story like this and just be like, hey, this is just the way it happened. There's too much effort right now in our society

to cleanse and strip difficult conversations, and difficult things from our past or difficult things from today, we have to be able to sit together and talk about whatever the issue is. Some bad stuff. And it can be whatever.

I mean, you have to be able to be in a place to compare and contrast, to think critically about what's going on. We have to teach our kids how to do this. Got to enjoy liberty. Exactly. That's exactly right. right, Joe.

If you don't have liberty, you don't have freedom. That's right. That's right. And your liberty to showcase a story right or wrong, that's liberty, man. That's what, that's how we're sitting in this room is through liberty. That's really the philosophy of the guy who was like, you shouldn't have told this story. It's like, that's a no-no story and we don't need to talk about it. And in his mind is, you know, and honestly, I mean, there's some credence to that.

in the sense of that's in the in the in the zeitgeist it's in the atmosphere because i picked it up like hey this is risky yeah nobody else is talking about stuff like this um but it i talk about it all the time when the mic's not on right why wouldn't i talk about it now you know and and i'm learning that those are stories that that are usually really impacting and and profitable if they're told in the right way you know and and Personally profitable, like internally profitable. Yeah, not economically profitable. Oh, I see what you said.

Your sensors over here. Yeah, good. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. But also just like, if you look at the law as the mechanism for building morality, that's not how life works, right? It's community.

Like the hardest thing he, the fine was nothing. It was going and telling his. dad. It was telling all those folks that drove around that base, he lost his dream job. And, hey, I went to basic training. I went to B-knock Bay. You were on Fort Leonard. I spent a good chunk of my military at Fort Leonardwood. Did you see that buck? No, but I knew that gas station that NAPE stopped at. Really? But yeah, and, you know, it's like he lost his dream job. And if you feel like he kind of got like maybe hosed on that situation, like that that's where like the chemical defense training facility, like chemical weapon precursors and not being able to stay out of places you're not supposed to

the MPs had every right i mean that's a that's a military it's fort leonardwood it's not hunting place leonardwood yeah so it's it's it's not a high fit 61,000 acre high vans hunting no no and so they you know but like with community when my kid one of my kids was horse around on a four-wheeler and he went on the county road last year or down on the street and he got hit and it just about killed him and you know he he was fine i mean he was in a lot of pain and he was really really bad hurt paramedics police all that around them and he lost it when i walked up because he was more scared to me than anything going and it's because he knew he'd violated my trust and the first it wasn't anything like you know i may never use my arm again or all that it was

just i'm sorry like that was the first and and he was in kind of a life or death situation and he was in kind of a life or death situation. Like the community aspect, and I'm outside of the hunting community, but I have one of my young men is boldly, like eagerly stepping into, can we talk about it? But that guy, you know, he's in it. And so like outside of the community, what makes your community stronger is talking about this and realizing the shame that comes with it. The worst part is having to go and say, I did this. Like, I cheated. On Blood Trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over.

They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bed. And there was a full of blood. Oh, my God, he doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors, where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence.

Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper, from cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwards. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th.

Follow now on Apple, IHeart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you hear when he said that he was in the hospital after that broke leg? And the nurse recognized him as being the guy that had killed the huge deer. But she thought he killed it. She didn't know he killed it illegally. He's got a broke leg. in the emergency room and he tells her, yeah, but I killed it illegally. And even that, like, he felt that need.

He almost brought it up in the voiceover, almost wanted to go, hey, did you all hear that? Yeah. Yeah. He told the nerd. Like, he could have just been like, yeah, it was awesome and been a hero. That's what she presented it as. Hey, you're the guy that killed the big buck. And he's like, yeah, but.

Before you set that leg, I'm actually a fraud. Yeah. You know, it's, so there, there's something there like the, The $141, I actually think the way it worked out is more powerful than, well, they took your guns in your truck. Yeah, it seemed because of the human impact, because then you would feel like, well, he's been through enough. Yeah. But it's just that having to go back, losing his job in a poverty-stricken area, that's not like, that's, you know, poverty-stricken. But, you know, like, that's a rural area.

There's not a lot of good jobs like that. Yeah, it's hard to get a good job, yeah. So I think, I don't think he got off easy. Okay, the white mastodon in the room was the $114 fine. Any comments on that? Like, that probably wouldn't have happened today, I don't think. I don't, I kind of disagree. Really?

Because I thought a lot about this over the last couple of days. I think, I mean, after saying everything I've already said, I kind of hesitate to say it this way, but I think that's, I don't think they knew exactly what he'd done until he confessed. Okay. Yeah. And so that's all they had. Would you thought that if I hadn't said it? It took me, I mean, I listened to that second podcast three times, and I only thought of this this morning.

That's why James is here. Thank you, James. So. Those numbers. You've checks in the mail. I, I think they knew that buck belonged. I mean, everybody. knew that buck.

Yeah. So they knew that. We know you didn't kill that buck over there. We can't figure out anything else, maybe. And I mean, I'm putting words in these guys' mouth, right? So I don't know for sure. But I honestly, you asked a question, would he have gotten a bigger fine? Not if they would have, not if they would have offered him, like, hey, you know, you need to plead guilty to this and this is what the fine is going to be.

I mean, so if you think they'd have said, you plead guilty and we're going to, we're going to find you $10,000. Like, they would have known he wouldn't have done it. They would have known, they would have had more. I think they would have had more on him. They would have had to have had more on him. Well, that. I agree. Yeah, you're the law enforcement guy.

I, 100% agree. And I say that from a standpoint that I haven't seen that case file. But judging by everything that was said, and that's the story that we have to go with. And knowing what I know about law enforcement and interviews and people. You said that the first time. The very first kid. When I even just told you about the story, Brent said. Yeah.

They didn't have him. Yeah. And it's not, I'm not saying anything toward the investigators that they didn't do a good job. Sometimes you don't have much. They had two weeks. They had been working on it for like two weeks, right? He had been gone somewhere else, right? And then when he came back, they wanted to talk to him.

So I'm with Brent. Like, it's nothing against them. Oh, it's just sometimes the clues ain't there. And there was probably something more important going on. Yeah. Like crimes against humans. Yeah. And that could sound negative to the outdoor world.

But that same deer could have tried crossing the road and got run over. Yeah. And no one would have cared about it. Someone would have said, do you see that big old deer dead on the side of the road? That's a shame. Law enforcement has a lot to do. Yeah. Now, I say that with, you asked if the $114 was significant.

I don't think most of us in the outdoors knows where that money goes. You know, I know where it goes here in the state of Arkansas. If you receive a fine, that goes to the school district in the county that you. Yeah. That you. Wildlife fines the money goes. directly the district. Right. Which is a phenomenal system and that system is put into place so that way people

don't think that the game orleans just out to meet a quota. And to get them. It's to put a human side to the game warden that he's protecting wildlife. I think that's a huge deal. I wish we knew where fines went to in all aspects of law and order. I just want to make sure. I just want to be be clear when I say, regardless of if they had him or not, I don't personally think they did. But sometimes you have to go with what you have to get a conviction.

You know, when all things are come down and you know, but you don't know, as an investigator, when you know, I know Clay did it, I know he did it. But I can't prove that he did it. Yeah. the rest of that falls on clay to either fess up and cleanse his soul and try to do right by what he did wrong and that's what I like about this story because that guy did it yeah and he didn't have to yeah I really I really don't think he did I I said it and I hesitated to bring the Missouri Department of Conservation into it but in some ways I felt like I owed it to them for sure and then I also think I owed it to the listener, I reached out to those guys, and they were fantastic. I mean, I just glowing praise for the Missouri Department of Conservation. It just wasn't possible to talk to the gay morners that did the case.

These guys are still active, still working. They're not retired. And it's just not in their job description to talk to podcasters. From another state. Yeah. And so, like, I got it. I wanted to talk to those guys. Yeah.

For what I was doing, that would have made the most sense to sit down with someone and be like, dude, did you know Donnie did it? And that's just not the way it worked. I was contacted, though, by a very high-level official. I mean, he called me on my cell phone. He didn't know about the Bear Grie's podcast. He didn't know who I was. For real.

I was just a dude that he was calling that had asked about this crime committed in 2009. and he called me multiple times and talked to me about Donnie and offered to be a guest on Bergerie's. And it just didn't fit inside. Like this guy actually, like he didn't know about the case previously. I mean, you know, not everybody knows every single poaching violations that's happened in their state in the last 30 years. So he didn't know about it.

He learned about it by reading about it and by talking to the guys that were part of it. So I just didn't feel like it would make a whole lot of sense. It would have changed the story. It would have changed the nature of the story if you had... That dog. Got a dog. He's just awkward. I just had to make an editorial decision to not include it in any way.

I just give so much credit to them. And I hope they're not... I hope they're not upset with me. I mean, they had like five guys. I mean, as a layman here, I left depression with the impression they're very serious about deer. Because they had five guys working that. When my four-wheeler were stolen, I could barely get one county shirt. Deputy out here.

But a deer is a big deal in Missouri. Oh, they're big deer. Big deal everywhere. Four-wheeler theft is not, but, you know, it's one of those. It sounded like Donnie's a big deal. wife was she's a big part of the latter end of this episode. Yeah. And that struggle with cancer, the willingness to go and try an alternate medicine, anything

to survive, which I'm a fan of that whole realm as well. But for her to come from a stage four cancer, go in remission, come back and catch it again, you know, the people we didn't hear from were those boys. Yeah. And you think about the sacrifice leads to success. Those boys are going to be some tough kids. You know, they've went through a whole bunch. And they probably idolized their dad.

They watched him fail. And it's super important that he succeeds to give those kids a crutch. They, obviously the mom was there. for the kids all the time why Donnie was out jacking around. They lost their mom. It's an amazing story, man. It pulls at every heartstring that you could pull at. I never knew that you were going to be like the Oprah Winfrey of the outdoors.

Me neither, man. Check under your chairs. I got a car. House for you. Yeah. How about the wedding dress and the rabbit? That was a good story. That was a good bear green story.

That was, and I'm talking about where they tried out this dog they couldn't afford, and she loved it so much that she said the money that I got saved up for my wedding dress, we'll buy that dog, and they did. And man, that was, it hit me right in the old fields when I was already getting them punched up pretty good. But to me, that is an absolutely. demonstration of pure love that she was giving up something that she had probably

dreamed about as a little girl but something that not only was she going to get but she was going to share that with her husband man that was that was strong how that dog became this thread that their family traveled all over and and they brought their boy I mean that was such a big part of their boy's life that dog lived 15 years just died like last year I think you said or two years ago.

Yeah, just recently. And yeah, that was. But that was something to always talk about tangible things that you can reach out and hold. And they could pick up that dog that their mama had, that their mama loved, that their, that their mama was the reason. That thing was in their home. That's got to be a lot of connections. This is one of those, you know, all of us in the outdoors,

we try to think about how we could bridge a gap to get to those who aren't in the outdoors. And out of all honesty, it takes stories such as this to put kind of the human side to the hunter. Yeah, that's right. And if you were going to share an episode of Bear Grease or a series of Bear Grease to someone who's outside of this broad circle, this would be the one to share. And we need little pieces like this to keep the big mission going. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. How surprised were you? I looked at the timestamps on this second episode, and there was 12 minutes left in a 56-minute episode before he started talking about Angela's cancer. Did it slip up on you? Or was it foreshadowed enough? Because I'll tell you, going into it, I didn't know, Donnie.

he I think I knew that he was married and that his wife had died like I just somehow picked that up from maybe maybe even Facebook looking at his Facebook or something and so I didn't know

that this was going to come up like it wasn't like I came in thinking we're going to talk about his wife no I mean I thought I was interviewing a guy about killing the deer and that's where it went so I was shocked I mean, I'm sitting there just like, holy smokes.

Is that the way it felt to you guys? I mean, did you see that coming or no? No. I would look like that cloud. I wouldn't have went to rose. Yeah. If I would have heard, knew that was coming. I would have stayed in the sports.

I thought it went to Lowe. That's where Spence got caught up in the. I was right there just about to walk in the door. No, I don't know how you could sell that. The flowers and stuff. Two befores and tears. It's like, golly, prices are high. This Biden economy.

You're supposed to be able to talk about true things. That is one. You can have to add it. The economy's actually pretty good. If you're selling lumber. No. Yeah. Yeah, I just wondered how it, because I didn't realize,

when I look back at the timestamp, like, it was the last 12 minutes. minutes when it all, when it all happened. I knew what was coming. I was kind of surprised that you hadn't, when I actually, because you told me how long the podcast was. So I kind of had in my mind how, and I thought, man, I think I'm almost done with this thing. And I haven't heard, I haven't heard about his wife yet. Yeah.

Yeah. I was waiting for that part of the story. So. Now, did you know that was coming? No. I mean, I thought you alluded to it in the first episode that. Oh, I said he was a widower. Yeah.

The first episode, I, that's right. In the beginning, I said he was a widower. But I didn't, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. The foreshadow and clay. Foreshadow, man. That's good storytelling, though. Oh, shoot, what was I going to say? Oh, my goodness, I had something right on the tip of my tongue, and I got to thinking about it.

Did you ask him if he liked to eat squirrel? No. He should come to the World Championship. Hey, do you know who's, it says he's probably going to come? So the Black Bear Bow nanza? Joe Wilson Donnie Baker Oh really?

Well we might need to get Donnie sitting next Brent Reeves or something at that judging seat Let's not do that to Donnie Let's just shake his hand He can come wear one of their wigs And come as the other Donnie Baker Yeah, is true enough

How much squirrel did you eat? Oh my gosh It was good All you needed All I could hold All they'd let me have Here's what I was going to say here's what I'm going to say

the podcast just ends with with I thought it was a great ending with that does yeah the perspective what I didn't what I didn't include which I was a little bit torn but I felt like from a

I just felt like that story ended the story was just like in kind of people came to their own conclude like I didn't need to sum it up with a VO of like, these are the conclusive, I usually would. Like I usually would be like,

here's what we learned. Here's, you know, I was just kind of like, that story told itself, made his own gravy. But what I almost included was about a two minute,

a minute section where he talked about his life today. And he has a really great job. And his family's doing well. And, And it's like things are going well for Donnie. And he's actually, yeah, that's all. I'm glad you included that in this because that was one thing that I wondered.

I wonder how he's doing now. Because I hope he's doing well. Right. And I think that is a lot of closure for the folks that are listening. Because with that hope, it gives somebody who did something wrong. own hope. Maybe I can overcome it. Yeah, that I can overcome it.

Because the deer thing is inconsequential. That's the only reason that is relevant is because we do an outdoor themed podcast. You were there. This all came about. I don't think it was coincidence. I don't think it was by chance. I think this story needed to be told. And the only thing that could light the fuse was the deer.

Because the deer to me is as inconsequential to this story as anything. There's a guy on Instagram that said, I've got a fever. And the only thing that can cure it is more Donnie Baker. Isn't that the Saturday night? Yeah. I got a cowbell. When he said that, I was like, I laughed. I don't know who it was.

Good job, Instagram person. Here's to you, Mr. Instagram. But back to Black Bear Bonanza. Back to the Black Bear Bonanza. No, I wanted to do this backwards because I wanted us to talk about the Donnie Becker episode. Before we finish off,

is there anything else? I mean, there's so much. We could talk about, well, we talked about intent. We talked about the fines. The whole fine thing is important because that would make, if I didn't know this story and you told me a guy killed a big deer and got a $114 fine, I would be pounding the table saying injustice. And I believe that I just can't help but believe that today that would have been different.

might be but I don't think they knew I mean to their point I think it's possible they didn't know that like the egregious nature that he you know hauled it out of there

well yeah they did okay yeah I mean I think I mean they knew something wasn't right yeah I think they knew he didn't kill it where he said he did I don't think they knew he hauled it out

do you see what I'm saying I think that makes a little bit of a difference true like I wondered if when they heard the whole story if they were like well shoot opportunity miss we probably should have taken it

you know like I wondered if that if it would have been different but they said this is how we're going to respond on blood trails the stories don't end when the hunt is over they just get darker I've seen something in the road I instantly thought it was a sleeping bag

and there was a pool of blood oh my God he doesn't have a hit Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors where the terrain is unforgiving the evidence is scarce and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper.

From cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back. together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere know something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, iHeart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't know how you come up with what a

proper fine is, because when I drive through the state of Missouri through a construction zone, there's a sign that says hit a road worker, get a $10,000 fine. I mean, that kind of sounds cheap as well. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so coming up with some sort of guideline on what you find somebody is we don't vote on that. Yeah. You know, it's not the people.

I don't know who comes, the judicial system comes up with it, I guess. But it sounded low. Well, today there's these poacher trophy fees. Right. Which just weren't that. I don't know when they started, but 15 years ago, they certainly weren't as popular. Today, I would say probably every state has higher penalties for killing a bigger animal. Do you think that's to separate a guy who's hungry who say shot a deer because he needed food or feed his family?

He gets $114.5. A guy that went out shot a 204-inch deer. Well, I think it's a response to the cultural frenzy in celebration of a big. big animals and we've we've valued big animals to such a degree and I'm not saying it's wrong I think it's interesting and I think you could you could if we were standing before aliens who didn't live here you can make a case that it's crazy yeah but but it's it's equivalent to cultural value because if Donnie Baker killed he said it himself I said it if he'd killed 110 inch 8 point like that we wouldn't be telling the story right we never would have known about it

and it wouldn't have been that big a deal because of the deer was so big and there's so much cultural value placed on antler size and with what we've seen the craziness of what people will do to break the law to kill a big deer. I mean, you know,

there's a lot of stories. Misty, you said something earlier that I want to touch on before we get to the Black Bear Bonanza on March 9th and Bittonville, Arkansas. Be there! You said that could basically,

you said that Donnie was different from like a standard poaching story. Because part of me, if you give me criticism, I have thought about that criticism immensely before it probably ever popped into anyone's mind. As I told this story, I thought, could I go to any poacher in America and tell an appealing story about their life? Probably. Well, but that's bad, Joe. I know. No, but it's the truth.

You could. Well, but that's where it's like, dude, am I just... Glorifying. Spending a story? No. Because I don't think you could. I did it with Louis Del and Charlie. I mean, and again, their story...

Not to great effect on all of us. What's that? Not to great effect on all of us. Yeah, Brett didn't like that one. Never did. And again, I wasn't spinning the story. I was just telling it the way I saw it, which was these guys I... We liked them, but they were also egregious poachers.

I listened this week to a podcast that had a poacher on it. And I was like, I couldn't help this guy. Like, it made me realize how special Donnie was. I went to another podcast that had a guy that was telling a story. and I was like, dude, there's no story there. Yeah. There's no, there, there, there wasn't, it just made me feel confident that Donnie's story is pretty unique. And you said Donnie told his own story.

You didn't have to coach him or anything. Right. It wasn't like you were a defense attorney. Yeah. I don't want folks to get the idea. You said there's no way you could help that guy. You need to explain that. You didn't go up there to help Donnie.

No. You went up there to let him tell. He contacted you about listening to us and he wanted to, he said, here's a story. Well, I mean, it wasn't even like that. He just volunteered that story. He wasn't fishing for, I think, I honestly think the last thing on his mind that I was going to show up at his door. He just told me that he just gave, he gave us a compliment on something we did.

And he said, man, I identify. I got in trouble years ago. and that's when I said, hey. That's what I want you to just put out there. That you weren't trying to help him. You were just letting. The point of that whole story was that I think Donnie's story is very unique. Yeah, I think it's unique too.

You couldn't do that with it. You couldn't have everyone tell their show like that. And most people's crimes don't eat at them. Like, I mean, that thing, he reached out to you. Like, that is a weird thing. It's because it was eating them up still. Yeah. I mean, there's a, there's, there's,

There's cleansing in transparency. And I think, like, maybe other people had forgiven him, but he still hadn't forgiven himself. Even hearing that telling that story, you can tell you, that's still really a raw subject. There's a couple points when he, and I don't remember what the questions were, but there were a couple points where he answered a question

that you asked him, and I think he was coming to a realization on something. So he was definitely still processing this stuff. When I said it was ego. Yeah. And he said, yeah, I guess it was. He said, I wanted to be, everybody know I was a great. I killed it because I wanted everybody who didn't think I was like a great white, you know.

Most people wouldn't admit that. No. I mean, we'd all know it, but they wouldn't have the guts to just like say that, you know. I think he's been thinking about it an awful long time to try to put sense to what he did. and the outcomes from it. And I can identify with that. I mean, there's things that I did when I was, you know, a teenager that I still think about. And I'm like, why did I do that?

What did you do, James? I'm not talking about it. I'm not ready to bet on. Our very own, James Parenthood. Bergerie's confession. She needed to golf. No, no, no, no. Now let me tell you why.

He killed a Peregrine Falcon with his drug. driver one day on the button green. Oh, you got me. It was a sparrow. Randy Johnson and that bird. No, I think that he's been wrestling with that stuff. And his had thought through a lot of it and had a lot of it figured out. But there was a few things there that you asked him that he, you got him off, not to say off his game, because that sounds bad.

You made him think about something from a little different angle. Yeah. And that's the point that last thing that I wanted to say on the whole thing was that the reason why you can tell those stories about poachers or outlaws or, you know, whatever it is is because you don't bring it to us in a way of saying, hey, here's this cool guy, listen to this cool story. you always bring it to us and you kind of walk us through different ways to think about it, different angles, to think about it critically, and you leave it with us to decide how we feel about that particular story. And I think that's a different way of doing it. So instead of, you know, hey,

Joe Smith, the poacher's going to be on our podcast next week. You know, you'd be sure to listen to it and blah, blah, blah. It's not told that way, and that's the refreshing part of what you do. And I'm not saying that so I can earn a spot back here for next week's episode. You like to come back next week. I just think I'm, I mean, I'm just trying to probably speak for those of us who are out there listening and appreciate the way that you do what you do. Whether you're talking about going down to Mississippi River, you know, as Brent's Cub pilot,

or, you know, telling somebody's difficult story. Yeah. You know, I know it's tough to be his pilot. Oh, my, you should have been the pilot. Hey, I'll end the Donnie Baker conversation with this statement. Donnie, I think the last thing that Donnie would want us all to think about him is that he is a saint even today. Like, he didn't, like, there's a version of the story and reason you tell it and you, in, in, in, you make up this redemption story, or not make it up, but the end of it is like, I'm different now.

I'm so different. I would never do that again. I, you know, distance me from that. Donnie didn't really have that deep of clarity on the redemption side of it in a way. But when he told it, but when he told his story, we could see it. It's like, yeah, you're way different. And I say that to say, like, Like, it's not, and there were parts of the interview that just weren't as relevant to keep on there.

Like, it's, it's not a fairy tale story of this, like, clean transition from this bad guy to good guy. You know, I mean. It's very Hollywood, if you're expecting that. Yeah, yeah. And Donnie would tell me, he said, Clay, it, I wouldn't have been able to do this, maybe even like five years after this happened. He said, I was bitter. I was mad. I felt like they lied to be about my job.

You know, I was scrambling. Like, this is 15 years later, after all this stuff has happened in his life, after a long time of distillation, that he's come to this conclusion. And the conclusion wasn't, was not, Clay, I'm perfect today. I even told you, I said, he's had some, what I consider and somebody could, debate me on it and I'm not going to go into the details of it because I might punch him is what I would consider minor wildlife violations that could have happened to anybody has happened to him since I mean he's not in outdoor media he's not yeah like he's not trying to he's just a guy that just like loves hunting very passionate very skilled

bowhunter and I mean golly great story stuff happens yeah great and so anyway does that make sense is that okay yeah and i think like for me just kind of one of the parting things is i this episode kind of shook me it shook how i look at myself because you had a guy and he did this thing that just you know looking back at it like that split season you know like he could have killed that deer many times but then one day it was there and boom and i look back at successes that i had in my life that i hold on to and i'm like you know if that went a different way Like things that I'm proud of, you know, I'm like, I might not have done it that way. I could have done it like a dirt ball and been a dirt ball like everybody else.

And so I think one of the things it did for me is it really took my trust out of myself, like that I would always have that moral thing. Like, you know, like that's not a given in any of our lives. Like you can't rest on your haunches. Like, I'm a great guy. Like, and it goes back to that phrase you started off with David and Bishiba crouching at the door. It's a conscious decision. And it's a warning. And I think that's why this is so powerful.

Yeah. Because you could be, you could step into what he stepped at any time if you're not careful. I think about, like, with your kids, one of the things we talked about when this first came out is you tell your kids, don't go to the party. Like, don't be there. Yeah. Because you could say, I'm not going to do this, but if you're where it's happening. You know, you don't know in the right circumstances what you would do. and all the regret that that will produce.

So stay far away. Stay in another building and, you know, be a mile away from it. And because it's true. You don't. And I think on the other, on this side of it, you know, looking at this, it should produce humility for everybody. Not just like you don't know what you would do, but also what you've done. Yeah, exactly.

You know, we've all done stupid stuff. What'd you do? Yesterday. This is all great. This has been a great, great conversation. The Black Bear Pananza. March the night. Bentonville, Arkansas.

Where is it at, James? It's at the Benton County Fairgrounds this year. So we were moving venues. We outgrew the Quail Barn. So we'll have two indoor settings. Our food trucks will still be outside. but our main show that people would be familiar with will be in one building. We've hired an event production company to help us with sound and video this year

so people will be able to see and hear what's going on much better. So, you know, we'll have, you know, cooking demo and a deer-butchering demo that, you know, will have some video production to help out with so people can really see what's going on on that kind of stuff. And then, of course, we'll record a render. The Black Bear Bonanza is the premier premium bear hunting event in the nation. It's what it is. You're saying it's a big deal.

It is. And how much it's cost to get in like $10? It's $10 for everybody 13 and over. So 12 and under gets in free. Kids get in free. Kids get in free. And Brent and I, I was about to say Brent Newcomb and I. Wow.

Play Brent Newcomb. I spend a lot of time, not Clay Reeves. This is big news. We've adopted, Fred. Brett and I, Brett Reeves and I

will be there all day. Yep. Just hanging out. And we're going to do a live Bear Grease render podcast there. There's going to be a, the Arkansas bear biologist, and other people from the game and fish

are doing a presentation on Arkansas Black Bear. That's right. There's going to be a lot of, of vendors there. Yep. There's going to be snakes there. There will be snakes there. There's going to be all kinds of stuff for kids to see and do and touch.

Snakes. Yeah. Joe's worth their salt. Al-Hooten. Oh, yeah. Yes, I was going to get to that too. The nation's premier al-Hooting contest. Let me say that again.

The nation's premier al-Hooting contest. One day, we're going to give away one day. Not this year. One day we're going to give away a major prize. Now, this year, we're on, we're in route. Listen to the way. Okay, so we're working on it. I doubt it's going to happen this year, but we're working on it.

We've talked about a particular kind of prize, and there's a particular kind of enterprise out there. Could we be any more specific? Yeah. I mean, but we all drove here today in, trucks. I will give away banjo

Nukem to the winner of the 19... No, no, just kidding. No, he won't. Stop. No, Brent, so Brent's going to emce the world famous Alhoot contest.

That'll be in the middle part of the day. I'm a little jealous about that. Man, where would Clay place? Let me ask Brent. Where would he play? Is he an elite? Is he... Oh, he's a top tier?

He's a top tier. He's very eligible to... The reason that is because he's practiced. It's like anything. The more you practice, the better you get. 10% of the things that come out of this dude's head is an al-hute at any particular event. But you don't get the real...

The quality, the best al-hutes are in a basketball setting. Oh, I'm sure. On the hardwood, that's where he's really at his own. Someone was talking to me about the boys. Or Simeon Spencer does a sweet move, which happens all the time. time, which Samian Spencer is Spencer's son.

Oh. Al Hu, as loud as I can, and Spence does his A-A-A-A-A- Cur-call. The opposing team has no idea

what's happening. But we'll go to like rural, north-central Arkansas and do it, and occasionally we get one back. This is not a joke. That's good,

yeah. Any, every, how many games we had this year? Kingston is where, yeah. We had 30 games. I've,

I hooted 900 times. Yeah. And then we go to some school districts. At least four times, five times per game. One of the moms asked me this week on our team, she said, can I put in a request for different animals? I was like, well, you can put it in. I'm not sure that they can perform. And we said, you know, I hope it doesn't embarrass y'all when we show up to these things.

And she said, oh, no, it's not embarrassing. And with a totally straight place, she said, it was very surprising the first. Yeah. me and Spitz, we are so pumped. At the last game, at the last game, we were the opposing team. We were at a stadium. And there was a whole, you know,

a hundred and something people like, you know, 60 feet from us across the way. They never, I never saw a parent get up. Like stand up. Like they would just, they would clap. Like reasonable, rational human beings. Who? Whoa, I'm already.

fired up and Spence were standing the entire game Al Houten yelling, high-fiving Gary

I went at Gary I went Gary hit him with the Black Panther call and he's like Ruh-rah! Gary was in it too, man

you know the folks on the other side the gym was like what is what you're not a mascot? No have one we're not doing that

The mermaids But it's not the owl are we playing the owl I didn't We were playing the house. My dream is that one day when Shep or Simeon do something major,

that everyone in the stadium will out who and crow call. My mom, I got to tell this story, and then we could do whatever we want. We'll come back to the black bear. We got to jack this from James. We were in a game a couple weeks ago, and we are intense. And Shep was actually explaining to Simmy,

and he's like, this is my grandma. Can you imagine the pressure that's on me? her watch asked this is a non-conference non-important game but her watch said are you okay

have you fallen because her heart rate was getting so out of control that they were like oh boy what is going on with this woman this is this is

this is his grandma the best though is when we have we've got this rapidly urbanizing area with a lot of folks coming out of state in some school district

up to Jalsway. And so we'll go there. And when we hit it there, the other team's players kind of like... Freeze up. Yeah, they're not quite sure what's... It's just a little discombobulating to be in their life and hear wildlife in the gym. James. World famous Al-Hood contest.

We're a famous Al-Hoot contest at the Black Bear Bananza March 9th, Benton County Fairgrounds, and Bentonville, Arkansas. It's from 9 to 5. We'd like people to buy tickets in advance. They buy tickets before February 15. We're going to put them in a special drawing for a couple different raffle prizes. They go to www.w.w. blackbear bananas.com. It'll redirect them right to our website where they get the whole rundown on what's going on, and they can buy their tickets. We also have added a little bit of camping this year.

We got the option at the fairgrounds to have camping. So nothing super fancy. So this is essentially going to be primitive camping. We'll have portage. on site. We're not going to have, there's some running water out there and there's a few electric sites, but this is going to be pretty basic. So don't, don't come expecting like a total Woodstock festival campground experience, okay? And I ain't coming. Is that the standard?

I'm not sure that you're familiar with Woodstock. It's not known for being like the cleanest deal. Well, I don't know if you've... With this mud we've had lately, it could be. Yeah, yeah, it could be. Well, and so I just, you know, I don't want people to get too high of Xxiellors. expectations, but we've had a request for that in the past, and so we've got that available this year as well. I kind of seen a sneak peek at one of the prizes. Yeah, yeah, the knife. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I thought you're going to say you get your own owl. No, I got too many of those in my chicken farm. What are the chances we could get a live bear there? I mean, we need to talk to our bear biologist about that. We need a bear there. I think we need to take that one. They used to bring a bear to the Big Buck Classic. Oh, yeah, they sure did.

Like a live? A live one. Oh, wow. They used to have one down there. That'd be pretty cool. I'm in. So is there music or? There'll be, we're working on a little bit of music in the middle part of the day and then at the end of the day.

And last year, Myron. Yeah, so Myron means the, the Arkansas bear biologist, incredible guy, fantastic banjo player. We played music. I'm, I'm not sure if we're going to play again, but there's going to be some music, trust me. Yeah, so we're working on a little bit of music. Nice. Our basic outline, the morning time will be all about our educational stuff. So kids come and see stuff and touch stuff.

We're going to have archery range. Umarx is bringing, they're going to set up an air gun range for us so kids can, you know, get exposed to some of that kind of stuff. Of course, all the furs and game of fish is coming with their big fish tank. So tons and tons of support. What about the goats? They're going to be back this year? I bet we'll have goats. Yeah, I don't know for sure.

That Snake Mountain pack goats. I'm pretty sure they'll be there. Yeah, Casey. And so that's kind of the morning time is all that educational stuff. And then over the lunchtime or right around lunchtime, we'll have a little bit of music. And then we'll have the state of the bears in Arkansas. And then we'll get into the render and we'll do some of that stuff in the afternoon. And then, of course, draw from awful prices.

That's a lot of fun. How many folks, like, where are you shooting for? We had 850 people last year, and, you know, we'd like, we'd like to be in that range or maybe a thousand, you know. You know, just transparently, we're trying to digest moving from one spot to another and kind of make sure we understand how traffic flows and all that kind of stuff. I say that, though, we're already ahead of schedule on ticket sales for this year. You could fit a lot of people in a small space. Yes. There'll be room.

I mean, we're going to do everything we can to entertain every single person who comes out there. That sounds like a hoot as a non-hunter. Yeah. Sounds pretty fun. I'll try to promote it a little bit too and get out there. I know there's a lot of people in my circle who want to come to see it. Yep.

Yeah. It's a lot of fun. That's good, man. It's good. Thank you guys so much for coming. And thank you. There's no Donnie Baker Part 3. Moving on. Donnie Baker.

But he might be a Blackropanaganza. It's possible. It'd be great. Hey, one last thing. You go on that audible, get that long hunter. You know, I'm three listens into it. By the fourth or fifth, I'll know what, I'll be an expert. The part that got me was Daniel Boone was 40 years old before he ate Buffalo.

It was an odd deal. I thought that guy would be eating Buffalo every night. how old were you when you started eating buffalo brent let's see 57 no thanks for thanks for listening to that that audio books does really good

yeah I got to thank everybody for that bought it a lot of people bought it a lot of people have supported supported what we're doing and and that's been awesome it was yeah it was number one on apple audio books like nationally like not in like hunting books like in that's a big deal oh yeah

like all audiobooks Beat out Britney Spears. For a short time. Beat out Britney Spears. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a time when... I'm just saying that was unexpected in the late 90s when I was dating. There was a chart that Misty screenshotsed that had me and Steve Rinella's name at number one.

And Britney Spears' name at like number six. Yeah. I think number nine. I'm just saying. Was that like the second stage of, you know, Clay and Misty's marriage goals is step one was. was to was to, yes,

we got to put this, I felt like what Clay said on this podcast, yeah, when he was like, I thought that, when I listened to it, I thought,

wait, is Clay saying that the mission of our marriage is why do bad things happen to good people because we got married and that was a bad thing? Like,

that's what it sounded like to me. You were a good person in that story. Yeah, I probably was a good person in that story. Oops, he did it again. But I thought that was pretty funny. He did get, Clay.

It was just a random question that we had when we got, when we got married. Yeah, we had a lot of funny stuff happened at the beginning of our marriage and we were like, man, why did bad things happen to good people?

And it just kind of became the catchphrase for a while. And now he's woping up on Britain's spirit. Yeah. That sounds terrible, but you know, in the audio books.

On blood trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bed and there was a full of blood. Oh, my God, he doesn't have a hit.

Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors, where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper, from cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in dark.

Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, IHeart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.