Bear Grease - Ep. 25: Bear Grease [Render] - Cave Man Films, Mark Kenyon, and Warner Glenn

Episode Date: October 27, 2021

On this episode, we've got a whole new crew for the Render. We're in the field and Clay's been hunting with Mark Kenyon of Wired to Hunt. The crew covers an array of subjects, including the difference between videographers and cinematographers, what kind of film would a caveman make, and Mark Kenyon's three days of saddle hunting in Arkansas National Forest for whitetails. Lastly, we talk about the second Warner Glenn episode, discussing how Warren responded to almost going to prison after getting into a fight with a border patrol agent and how that changed his life. Fun episode with a new crew! Connect with Clay and MeatEaterClay on InstagramMeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeShop Bear Grease Merch Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new field. Worldware Gear at firstlight.com. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called the Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast. Presented by FHF Gear, American Made, Purpose Built, Hunting and Fishing Gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. Guys, we've got an exclusive bear grease discount code for FHF gear.

That's fish hunt fight gear. I've been using their products for the last year, and I love carrying my gear in a chest rig or my binos in their bino harness. It's easier and more accessible than a backpack, and it doesn't get in the way when I'm riding my mule. For a limited time, you can head over to phfgear.com forward slash bear grease. and listeners to this here podcast, get a discount on purchases for your FHF Gear system, and you can see how I build my gear system. So go to FHFGear.com forward slash bear grease for a special code if you're buying stuff from FHF Gear. Check it out.

Fish Hunt Fight, FHF Gear. Just for the record, now that we're not producing a show for Mark Kenyon, I would like to just establish with a group. that now Clay's in charge. Clay's the producer. Okay. So no longer, there's no need to look back to Andreas anymore. Thank goodness.

Few. Oh, is there etiquette? Hey, this is really an experiment. And I don't really want to put like a lot of pressure on you guys. But, you know, there are groups of people over time that have done things that were monumental. And when you're swinging for the fence, like, you either go. going to strike out or you might hit it over the fence. And so this is this is the first time in the bear grease render history that we have had an entirely new crew of bear grease guests.

Essentially, you guys are like the astronauts that went to the moon first. And people are like, man, I don't know if they ever come back or not. This is wild. So congratulations. Are you insinuating this won't air? Okay, if this goes really bad, I'll just call in the regulars, you know, for a quick. Baragree surrender. No, welcome to the Bear Gris Render. Welcome. No, I'm thrilled, absolutely thrilled to have a new cast of characters, which I will introduce.

So we make a big deal out of introductions on the Bear Gris Render, okay? We're in the field, so we are not in the typical Bear Grisduey studio at my office. office. We are in the field. You're a loose definition of in the field, I'd say. In the field, meaning we're not where we usually are, but I have many, many guests with me today. Mark Kenyon of Wired to Hunt is here. Hello, hello. Yeah, Mark. It's good to be here. Mark and I have been hunting together this week with Mark is his crew of his production crew. So I'm going to start to my right, and we have Matt Gagnon. How close was that, Matt? You know what? That's a perfect mix of the both of the correct ways to say it.

Say it right. So we say Gagnon or it could be, it could be Gagnon if you're from the old country. Gagnon. But we'll go at Gagnon. That's like the... Okay, so tell me what you do for meat eater. I am officially an associate producer and in the field, I am the go get me this guy. The glue guy.

Yeah. Did you guys know that the first video that Matt ever produced for me, he was the, were you the director on that? There was multiple... Officially, yeah, it was a team effort, but yeah, I put in a lot of... So it was the first time I worked with Matt with Meteor. We did this bear pistol defense video. And it has 2.7 million views on YouTube right now.

Smashing success by Matt. Yeah. So I set the bar high initially. So I feel like I peaked in my first effort. To your right, Andreas Atayi. Good job. Dude, you're Persian now. Yeah.

So Andreas, tell us what you do for me, here. I produce from Eater. So you're a producer. A producer. What does that mean? I didn't. I wouldn't have known what that meant before. So my wife likes to think that it's like wedding planning.

Except for a TV show. You get all the pieces to the puzzle together and you have an event. Okay. Everybody goes to them happy. That's a good way to put it. Shout out to Janaya. She must be an angel. I agree.

She's the real trooper of the crew. Completely. So you've been on the shoot with us this week. And we'll talk about our hunt and what we did. You've done this kind of stuff in other. for other companies though. Other capacities, yes. This is my first event or gig with a docu-series of this sort.

Docu-series. Is that what we're calling these? I imagine it is. It's a series of documenting Mark Kenyon slaying it. To your right, Tyler Emmett. Tyler, welcome, man. Hello, thanks for having me. Where are you from?

Originally from Carpentaria, California, but I live in Bend, Oregon now. Oh, that reminds me, Andreas is from LA. Great point. I'm from Carbent. Very important point. We'll come back to you, Tyler. We're going to spend a lot of time with you.

I would like to point out that Andreas is from L.A. People might have already insinuated that just by hearing him, though. Yeah. They might already caught on. Did y'all notice that James Lawrence gave him some grief from being from California? I loved it that so quickly he was able to. Already he picked up like Andreas is and should be the target of Jebs. I feel like I'm James Lawrence's his favorite now.

He gave me a big old hug. He didn't hug you, Clay. not the way he hugged me you should be jealous Clay I know this man I've known this man for a week you've known this man your entire life and he gave me a better hug

than he gave you was it a hug for like a wayward child you have a very very good skill at connecting with people quickly I will say that you and Juju were like this like quickly James Lawrence

I like to know everyone man maybe that's something about guys from California Tyler okay back to Tyler man you do a lot of work for so you're a videographer and do a lot of work for meteor and all a bunch of different capacities.

Yep. I love kind of all the shows across the gamut from cow in the field to meteor hunts to now this first time with Mark and sometimes on the main show with Steve and I don't know they just wherever they tell me to go, I go. What meat eater shows have you done with Steve? Well, I first worked on Stars in the Sky, which was not the meter show, but that was back in, I don't know when we filmed that, 2015, went to the fish shack. Yeah.

And then did the Wyoming mule deer episode, I think it was in season nine. where we went with, on horseback up to Wyoming and got mule deer, and then did the Texas episode with Jesse Griffiths and J.T. Van Zant. This year in February, we did the squirrel. You came to Arkansas, which was a highlight. Yeah, during that snow. Squirrel hunt. Yeah, that was.

Did you know that, so the guy that y'all hunted with in Wyoming, the guide in his son? What was his name? Stewart and Landon Peterson. Stewart was the dad. Landon was the sign. Okay, so Stuart Peterson, Mark, did you know that Stuart Peterson that was on that season non-backcountry Wyoming hunt is the boy from where the red fern grows somebody just told me that this week but maybe it was him was it you tell me bill yeah you told me that billy coleman yeah so

it's a great great great great movie and book do you ever watch a movie like that or read a book like where the red friend grows and just be like why didn't i think of that because it's such a classic american story that is just so simple and so rich and people who aren't aren't Coon hunters, people who aren't even necessarily rural people can like watch where the red fern grows and identify with it. I thought it was fascinating that this old outfitter was Billy Coleman in the movie. Yeah, that's pretty cool. That movie was shot over here near Talaquah, Oklahoma, which is like a couple hours from here. Yeah, they were great guys. Yeah, they really seemed like a yeah, genuine article. I think he did the child actor thing for a while and then realized it wasn't for him and just, you know,

started living a different life. You can tell when Billy Coleman and where the red fern grows runs, like, down a gravel road and with bare feet, you're like, this dude's a real outdoors kid. Yeah, yeah. But he was from Wyoming. He played a pretty good Southerner. Yes. Yeah, he was from Wyoming.

But yeah, he does, I think he's a general contractor and a outfitter now. And his son is a cattle rancher. Yeah, they seem like the real deal. Yeah, they are. They're definitely the real deal. Really nice guys. Yeah, so you do a lot of videography of all kinds for me to do. That's cool, man.

Yeah. To your right, Mark Kinney. Gignon. You making me French? I just, we're going around and like, Gignon, attaille, emette. Emetto. Yeah. Mark Kenyon.

Mark, welcome to burgers, man. This is like a big deal. Glad to be here. So everybody, most people would know who Mark Kenyon is. Mark Kenyon has wired to hunt, which is inside of the meat eater, the meat eater world. Sometimes I think it's hard for people to understand. kind of meat eater. They might know Wired to Hunt and not realize, unless they're paying attention that that is a

meat eater brand, but it's your brand and who you are. I think of meat eaters is the umbrella. And then there's all these sub-brands and personalities and folks underneath it. And wired to hunts a thing. I started on my own many years ago. And then when Meteeter became a new thing, me and Steve merged it all together. You were one of the first guys that came into Meteor. Were you not?

Yeah, one of the very, very first, like, number three or something like that. Okay. So he sought you out. He did. He called me one day. Did you know Steve before that? I did. We weren't like close buddies or anything. We drank a beer once and talked about books and we exchanged a few emails. And then one day I was sitting in Grand Teton National Park with my wife, camped out living in our camper. And I got a phone call from Steve Rennel. I'm like, what in the world is he calling me about?

The rest of history. So that was what year? 2017. Seems like a long time ago. It is. So we're going to come back to Mark because we're going to talk about our hunt. Ultimately, by the end of this, we're going to talk about the Warner Glenn podcast. Number two.

To Mark's right, my left. Joe, also known as Big Joe. Big Joe is not, he's not big, like, volume-wise or, like, mass-wise, but he's very tall. Joe, Vanek out. Yeah, Joe, this is your, so you're a videographer? Cinematographer. Ooh. Wow.

Can you describe the difference for me? For real. I mean, to most people in the world that there is no difference. But within production, I would say, cinematographers have like a little bit, you know, a little bit... Is this a self-proclaimed title? No, I mean, you get credited as a cinematographer. What would the guy do that was a videographer?

I mean, I don't know. I don't want to throw in here. Come on. This feels like an ego thing here is what I'm catching on to. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, it's more artistic. I mean, just maybe a certain level of a... A bigger paycheck?

Certain level production maybe reflects the cinematographer. I don't know. Okay. Certain cameras maybe, I don't know. Okay. Hollywood wants to interact with. We have an LA producer here that could shine in on that. Yeah, what's the difference?

So since digital cameras become a thing and brands have brought in folks to shoot, this role has become a videographer where they're shooting video of content and they're also editing or directing. They're like a jack of all trades or a Jane of all trades where a cinematographer just specializes making cinema images. So they operate on a different scale typically. To the general public, the term videographer is more familiar

than a cinematographer or director of photography or camera operator. It says cinematographer on our time card. Yeah, there you go. How does filmmaker fit into this? Just skipping, jumping above all of it and I'm a filmmaker. Well, this is like not my film.

Like I'm producing images and making things look good. But if I was like, Like, for instance, I'm making my own film, like, as an independent cinematographer, like my own documentary film. So that's, I guess, qualifies me as a filmmaker. But for this show, just a cinematographer. Do you guys as videographers, as, excuse me, as cinematographers.

And as, it's kind of like the difference than being a, someone saying, oh, you're a raccoon hunter. And you go, no, I'm a coon hunter. I don't know. And it'd be like, what's the difference? No, never mind. That was a joke. Okay.

Okay. As cinematographers, as producers, like four of you are, and do you watch a lot of films? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, for style examples and inspiration and lighting and color. So when you're watching a movie, you're thinking about all those things? Oh, yeah. I mean, some people can't stand watching films with me. There's things just because I'm, like, interpreting it a little bit different maybe or something.

Or paying attention to certain things. But sometimes they've appreciated it. They're like, oh, I didn't think about that way. My wife has become better at doing that than I am. So she'll just predict shows right off the bat. It's fun. She's like, we switch sides. What do you think about, do you think there is more advantage in watching other people's work?

I think there's an argument to be made for somebody that maybe never watched anybody else's work and just went off like raw, just their interpretation as opposed to be an influence. Because I think we're heavily. influence in anything. Like if you turned me loose in the mountains of Arkansas to go kill a deer with a bow and I had never had any instruction, but I understood the patterns of deer and the, like, I think I would probably do it way different than the way I do it now. It's just been ingrained in me. I mean, part of the whole schick of what we're doing this week is that we're hunting a particular way because it's the way that it's a traditional way to hunt. It's not, necessarily the most efficient way. You see what I'm saying? Yep. So, and I realize we gain so much

by watching how other people do things. But sometimes I wonder if that inhibits us more than it helps us sometimes. What are your thoughts on films? And then Mark, we'll go back to deer hunting. You know, I think like, you know, like he was saying, getting inspiration from other stuff, I think, you know, mimicry is the best form of flattery kind of thing, or if you're, you're kind of learning from people that you admire and applying that to yourself and your own cinematic process and as Jesus that sounds. But yeah, I don't know. I feel like it's hard in a vacuum that doesn't exist, right? You're always going to be influenced by everything you watch and consume. But, you know, there's a lot of stuff with different rules of shooting that you need to know

because, you know, you can't cross the line and shoot, you know, it's hard for the editor. So you kind of have to have a basic understanding of coverage of a scene to, so I think if you just kind of came out of the box without any of that, it could be a little bit challenging for an editor or whatever, so. Especially because the language of film has evolved over a century. And so we are accustomed to a certain language. And once you become a master of that craft, you can change the rules to that language. I see. Yeah. But you know, something that your parents brought up last night when we're talking was the same idea of how much do you watch or how much you pay attention. Our art or art in general is all about sensory understanding. So if you had no hearing, no sight, no touch,

could you make anything? You know, like what would you do? You wouldn't know that that existed. So even if we just look at a tree, we can be inspired by that and somehow capture that in our paintings or our, there's inspiration no matter what. You don't have a choice. You just, you are only able to build on experiences you've had in a sensory world. Yeah, I realize it's probably kind of a romantic, unrealistic idea to think you would be not influenced by other people. But what if we took a Paleolithic Native American who would have the full capacity for learning as us? And you could take him out of that world and put him into our world, train him on a video camera, the most creative of all the bunch. You could do some tests and figure out which one was most creative. He would know

the video, he would know the equipment and he could make a video. What would it look like? How would be different than ours. We're getting deep in the weeds, boys. This is great. I've got a thought on that just in terms of we've chosen to work within a really set, like set confines. We have a episode length, like where we have a time limit. So, you know, if you take someone in that situation, they may think that the full sunrise is the most incredible thing and film it and it's a, you know, a three-hour segment that doesn't translate to, you know, what we're trying to do. We've chosen to work within this really, like, strict set of rules. So there's, I think that limits capacity a little bit. You know, you've got to get everything done in 22 minutes. It has to be a cohesive story.

There has to be a start and an end and an arc. Whatever was they produced, I just don't think it would do well on YouTube. I think the caveman. I actually think that the caveman would have a really good chance because we all, we've all evolved with similar understanding of beauty. Yeah. Even across different cultures, right? Like the indigenous Americans versus the European Americans, like they understood art in a very similar format. Yeah. I think they'd have a good chance of making something really sick. I think it would be surprised at how, yeah, similar our intrigue would be. I think it would make like an hour-long documentary about fire.

That's what I think they would do. And Buffalo, Fire, Buffalo, and the sunrise. I mean, I would watch that. I would watch that. Fantastic. Throw some Kevin Costner in there and a felt cowboy hat. Perfect. Are you saying what we do is so easy a caveman could do it?

Like, like, go commercials? I think that's what he's getting that. Exactly. No, hey, so, Mark, why don't you tell everybody kind of what we've been doing this week? Yeah, well, the gist of this show that we're producing is that I travel across the country to meet up with interesting characters, interesting deer hunters that represent a unique style tradition or culture within the white tail hunting world. And I'm tasked with meeting with this person and mentoring under them, studying them for a day or so to get the gist of their area, their place, and how they do what they do. And then I need to go out and try to pull it off myself. So I got to try to replicate.

I got to try to guinea pig their style in their terrain and their stomping grounds. So this time we came to visit you and James Lawrence to learn about Arkansas deer hunting, hunting in the mountains, hunting in big timber, big forests, public land, and doing it the traditional way, packing in with a mule, staying out there a while, camping in the back country. And so that's what we did. We came out here, met with you guys, and tried to hunt. Yeah.

Everybody that is followed along with the Bear Grays podcast would know James Lawrence. He was on the second or third episode. So we did a full episode with him. The Shedhorn Buck. Yeah. Yeah. What were your impressions of James? James was even better than I expected.

You know, I think that, you know, having listened to him on the podcast, and heard, you know, stories from you about him. I knew he would be a great deer hunter. I knew he'd be a character. But what I didn't expect fully was just how warm and welcoming he was. You know, how quick he was to open his arms to you and be excited for you and share with us everything he could. And the genuine excitement he had to be a part of this with us was just, it was really nice.

Yeah. And I'll tell you, obviously, a heck of a deer hunter to kill the deer he has in the places he's done it. I mean, I could tell it was impressive when I went and saw the antlers on his wall at the beginning of the trip, but it's even more impressive now at the end of the trip. So the first day, we went to James House. We spent an hour or two with him, talking with him. And then we went out into the mountains, National Forest here in Arkansas. And there was a whole gaggle of us. There's six of us here.

So we all, we. packed in on the mule and so the way that the way that James you know he did all kind of hunting but his favorite way to hunt was to pack in with a mule or a horse he's a horse packing with a horse and carry enough stuff that he could hunt for an extended period of time and stay way back in the woods and it basically is kind of like a modern version of a long hunt you know and so that's what we did and you know there's different layers of national forests you know there's There's some national forest that is a budding private land that has a lot of clear cuts and a lot of man-made alterations to the landscape, which typically means more deer.

Then there's what I would call like interior mountain hunting, which would be these mountain ranges and areas that just kind of have, it's all going to have some timber improvement and different things. but kind of this interior areas that probably have less deer densities than anywhere else. And that's where we tried to go. Yep. We camped. You guys camped. I actually left because I wasn't really a part.

I was just a part of the film getting Mark back in here. And then Mark was on his own. So I didn't camp with you guys. But how many days did you hunt, Mark? Well, we had budgeted four hunt days, the first of which would be a morning with you, where you'd be showing me around and giving me your perspective on how you would approach, you know, just basically how you and James would hunt in the area like this. I was picking your brain about all that.

And then we would have, I would have three and a half days solo after that. So that's how much time we had. We didn't end up using all that time, but that's how much time we had available. And we got a late start, so we were supposed to camp in and get in there the night before, but because of all sorts of outside of our hands circumstances, we got a late start. So we got in a day late and we left a little early. So it was a short long hunt Yeah, yeah, yeah

Well, do we want to tell Yeah The conclusion, I mean, talk to me Just kind of describe the terrain And kind of what we did And then just your hunt Well, if you're willing to spill the beans Oh, why not?

Yeah, the bear grease render podcast Is it's good a place as any All right So we, like you mentioned We packed in our stuff on Izzy On your mule And that was definitely the easiest Hiking I've ever had

For a backcountry hunt because she carried my backpack too. I felt guilty. But it was nice. I never feel guilty loading a mule down to the hilt. I think of every, what I whisper under my breath, or if I'm by myself,

I actually say it out loud to the mule. I say, I feed you every day of your life. You can do this for me today and not throw a fit. Well, you know, it was funny, though.

We talked about this while we were filming the other day, but watching her walk out, I got to thinking, like, is she like a hunt dog? like is this her Super Bowl has she been sitting in her you know sitting in the pasture sitting in the barn for weeks just waiting for this chance to get out and do her work right you said nope she's not excited about this at all yeah no that that was an insightful question and i've never heard it

asked like that people have asked you know do you think they like doing this and my i don't we'll go through it again because it's an interesting thought you know does this is this animal when I put it in the trailer because it knows it's going to go out in the back country and get out of the, you know, the pasture for a couple of days. And I believe the answer is no. And that is partly because I read a book years ago called Evidence-based Horsmanship where a neurologist and a horse trainer got together and wrote a book that changed the equine training world. Because for years, people anthropomorphized horses and mules because a horse might treat Tyler different than they'd treat Joe. just like he would, and people would presume that, well, that horse doesn't like me or that horse, you know, doesn't, it's mean to me and not to him. And basically it affected the way people trained and handled their horses.

Well, these neurologists came in and really studied the science, the brain science of an equine animal. And basically, they have, they don't have a place in. their brain to like you or not like you. Like it is not there. They have an extremely big part of the brain that governs the physical movement of their body. Like basically if the brain were an engine, like a big chunk of that engine would be dedicated to actually driving their body, you know, this thousand pound body, even more

so than like the human body. a very small part of that brain would be dedicated to the ability to reason and think, which they basically don't have the ability to do. Like you can put out, the best example was like, you put out a haybell for a horse. He is not thinking, I'm going to stash some of that hay away for next week when I won't have hay.

Like, he just eats all the hay. Point being, that animal, the main things that animal is worried about is the main flight response, the main response that animal has is flight response to predation. That is a massive factor in their life is staying safe and breeding and then having a full belly. And so like a whole, kind of like Matt, Matt pointed to himself. I didn't get that on breeding. So a dog, though, a primary instinct in that dog is a prey drive to go get something.

And so we're on the same page of that animal. We want to go get a quail. We want to go get a bear or whatever. So anyway, I think that Izzy is happy. The other thing is that they fit into a dominance. Everything about training mules and horses is about dominance. And by dominance, I don't mean like physically dominant. eliminating the animal. But that animal, when it views you, Andreas, the only way it knows how to

register you is, am I in charge or is he in charge? Who's in charge here? And so if you establish that you're in charge, then that animal will do what you want. If it figures out that you're intimidated by it or that it can bully you, it absolutely will. We used to read our kids a book called If You Give a Moose a Muffin. Do you read that to your kids? Yeah, that's a good one. Yep. Yeah, so if you give a mousse of muffin, he'll come in your house and want to drink of water. If you give him a glass of water, then he'll come in your house and he'll want to sit on the couch. It's a cute little kid's book. So if you give a mule of muffin, you're in trouble.

So you always got to keep him in line. So, you know, there's a future for you in children's books, Clay. You do the Arkansas version of that. Give a mule a muffin. Give a mule a cat. Do you regret giving Izzy an apple now? No, not at all. She worked for me.

Yeah. So, yeah. Mules. Yeah, I want to give the Cliff Notes version of this because I know we want to get to other things. Basically, just, we packed in there a few miles. We set up a base camp, and then you and I struck out for a morning of kind of still hunting through the mountains. And basically, I was just picking your brain on all the things I'd want to know. What's the kind of stuff you think they're feeding on out here?

What kind of habitat are they keying in on? What are the terrain features that these deer are you using? You were pointing out a lot of differences to me. I'd say one of the things that stood out the most to me was how you should interpret sign in a place like this compared to how you might interpret a sign or observations in a place in the Midwest where there's much higher deer densities because very low deer density here.

And so you talked about making a chart, which I think we should make and I think we should sell it on the mediator store. This would be one rub in Arkansas equals 15 rubs in Iowa. one deer sighting in Arkansas equals 20 deer in Iowa whatever it was because there's so little

sign of any life out there when it came to white tails at least we saw we saw zero droppings just the several small tracks we saw when you and I were together we found one little dinky rub

and we saw one just half I can't cussing on this podcast kind of one real small little scrape so it wasn't terribly encouraging from a sign perspective but you were telling me oh this is pretty great

so that was eye-opening to me yeah um so I got the lay of the landing and just kind of saw how you would do it and how James had taught you to do it and try to get enough of an understanding to be able to head out there my own that was that was the beginning yeah yeah yeah and then

walk us through the hunt so you had four hunts yep so you saw you you... Clay took off, you took off, went home. And we were hunting high saddles. Yeah. So this was one big mountain that had a few saddles in it.

And both you and James had reiterated to me multiple times that saddles were really the name of the game. It was a terrain feature in these big ridges that deer would use to cross the big ridge. And while there's a number of different ways deer use these mountains,

a number of different terrain features they might relate to, saddles where were the most huntable. I think that was a key thing. You could try different things, but this was a way that was particularly hunting. And it has a lot to do with the wind, higher up on the mountains.

If you got a south wind, you actually get a south wind. If you're on the side of the mountain with a south wind, it's going to swirl, it's going to hit this mountain and do all kind of weird stuff. So the saddles are huntable. And what I said to you and what I wanted to reiterate,

because there's a lot of guys that kill good deer in this part of the world that probably would be like well I don't hunt that many high saddles there's other ways to do it you know in the deer's world in this part of the country

like he's probably doing eight things really consistently this is one of them you know I mean he's going to bed probably in similar areas on the mountain he's traveling benches in similar areas he's feeding in similar areas he's getting water every day somewhere

but basically it's just like you can kill them in saddles because they're in a saddle is a low spot on a long ridge and so that's just kind of what we keyed in on yeah yeah so we're looking for saddles some little bit assigned just confirm that yes there are deer there were deer coming through yep and then we wanted to find those things close to acorns because we figured that's that's what they're keyed in on feeding so that first night what did what did you say what kind of oh yeah acorns acorns acorns oh oh oh oh oh oh Acorns, that's what I mean. Acorns. Acorns. So we found all those things in a couple spots. And so that first night I went into the first saddle, it was a nice, thick, brushy saddle. Brought my incredible cameraman, Tyler and Joe with me. We climbed up in trees.

We decided we'd sit up high that first night because it kind of seemed like a destination that you needed to get a good advantage point of. So we did the tree thing that night. We saw Wondo out of range. We went back the next morning, which I was thrilled about. Yeah. When you came back to camp, I was like, oh, you saw a deer? Yep.

Good. Yep. So that was somewhat encouraging. Next day, saw nothing. So that afternoon, I decided, you know what? It's time to take another page of James' book and do the still hunting thing. So that evening, I still hunted my way through an acorn flat, through that first saddle, up another knob to this other ridge.

And I came across another spot with a bull. bunch of acorns that weren't there the first day when you and I walked through. Really? The weren't as thick in this spot. So I saw that and it was like, oh, interesting. And then I glanced over to my left and I saw this brushy point coming off the main ridge. And it caught my head and noticed it when you and I were out there.

And I just caught a glimpse to this. I thought, geez, that looks like something should be bedding in that. So I just stood in glass for a while. And then I edged my way off the little trail and I just started sidehilling toward that just to get a better look. And as I'm heading towards that, I find a rub. multiple saplings all rubbed up. So I thought, well, this looks good.

And I sat and I watched that brushy point for a while and then slipped on past that around the knob. And on the other side, and I've another ripped up tree. So now I found two rubs in the same little knob. And then I looked at Onyx and I noted that that little tiny scrape we found the day before was just on the other side of this two. So all this sign, which now is the most sign we've seen anywhere on this trip, is right around this knob. and there's a second saddle that drops off that knob. And so I thought to myself, as I'm seeing all this and these things are looking good, better and better,

I thought, why don't I just sit in the side of this knob and watch that saddle and see if this kind of combination of factors pans out? Did that. Saw three doze that night come across that saddle. Out of range. So the next morning, my plan was head back in there. First light slip into that saddle and get closer to where they crossed. and to make a long story short,

we ended up seeing several deer move through that saddle. And one of them, around 9.45, late in the morning. Late in the morning. One of them came crunch and crunching just over my right shoulder. I'm sitting on the ground. And I heard a twig snap, turn my head to the right, look past my cameraman here, Mr. Tyler. And I just see antlers coming down the ridge, not far, not far away

at all. And eight point buck was walking straight past this quarter and away and lo and behold, we got the camera on him. I got the gun up.

The rest of history. Let a, let a shot off. Muzz-loader, honey. Muzz-loader, honey. So you're shooting a muzzleloader? Could have killed him with a bow. It was,

it was at bow range, probably when I shot him. Wow. And, um, yeah, killed me an eight-point Arkansas buck. Awesome, man. It was wild.

Yeah. It was not, I didn't, expect that to happen the way the way things are going. You haven't a, you don't realize how much pressure is on something like this.

And not from even the video perspective, but if you had come to Arkansas and you said, Clay, I got three and a half days and I want to kill a buck. I mean, that's a pretty short amount of time, really anywhere to go hunting. I mean, you could hunt in some of the best places in the country and say you got three and a half days

to kill a representative deer here. So, and to do it here, I'd say we were all really happy that you got to love. I think this is one of the two top hardest hunts I have for you this season. Yeah, so there's a series of hunts that Mark's doing. I don't envy you for this Mark.

It's a tricky endeavor. It's funny, you know, me and Ben were the ones who came up with this idea and planned out the hunts and planned out what we're going to do. And, you know, a year ago when we were first spitball on this whole idea, like, man, this is a great concept. This is going to be fun. This is going to be really interesting. And it never really somehow, I'm some kind of idiot for not really thinking this through,

but it didn't really cross my mind until I was actually going out in these hunts, just how crazy it was to try to pull this kind of thing off and make a TV show. Like most all hunting TV shows, especially White Tail, are going to some big, managed, fancy property, and you've got seven days and it's already pre-set for you. We're going to some outfitter, and it's all ready to rock and roll, and there's big bucks all over the place.

Nobody goes to some random place, spends a day talking to someone and learning about their area, and then tries to go figure it out all in their own with just three days to hunt. Yeah. It's not a recipe for success to do. It's a super difficult. It is a very interesting concept, and I can't wait to see them all and see it all put together. It's going to be interesting, and we were very fortunate that this one worked out.

It very well couldn't have. The increased pressure of time is such a mental game, too. You know, I told Mark, if he was here for seven full days, like I would have thought, man, he'll get on a good buck. and seven full days, but three and a half days is way different than seven full days. And with the muzzleloader, which you don't hunt muzzleloader because like as consistently as somebody out here would. Like you're a bow hunter primarily. And those muzzleloaders are difficult. There's always something going wrong with. Yeah, there really is. The more I mess with muzzleloaders, the more I realize there's so many things they can go wrong with them.

I'd rather shoot a bow any day the week. I would do. Really? Yeah, 100%. I trust a bow a lot more in a muzzleload. Yeah. On blood trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bag. And there was a pool of blood. Oh my God, he doesn't have a hit.

Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors, where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper. From cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together.

He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, IHeart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Mark, you're an upbeat guy pretty much all the time. How are you feeling at like 9 a.m. that morning? So you fired the shot at 9.45.

Where was your head at at like 9? Yeah, it's a great question. And in my very speedy recollection of the hunt right there, I made it sound like it was action-packed and quick and... Yeah, that sounded pretty action-packed. Yeah, I saw deer and then nothing, and then a couple deer and then nothing. but you got to understand that those deer sightings you know the one deer that was like a four second deer encounter the first night and the next night it was five seconds of them very quickly passing through and then then i killed but that was over the course of you know four days many long hours yeah um so 99% of the hunt was filled with man we are not seeing anything i've got very little sign to work with you know i am really a what i love about deer hunting and a lot of ways is the analytical

it's the chess match it's trying to understand all the different pieces it's studying the playing studying the board and figuring out how to move these pieces around and where these pieces are and what they mean and all that and I kept as we're going through this hunt I felt like I was hunting blind

there's so little new data to work with there's almost no sign at all so it's not like I could scout until I find hot sign because one little rub might be the best we're going to find and how do you interpret that? I wasn't going to be able to scout around until I bumped a bunch of deer.

I wasn't going to see four, five, six, seven deer doing different things and be able to pattern what they're doing, like you might in other places. So much of this time I was sitting here just going back and forth in my head about what to do and how we're going to make the most of this and how it's somehow going to come together. And what it came down to in the end and basically where my head was at at 9 a.m. on that fourth day was I'm not really in control here. I can do a few things right. There's a few things that I can trust in.

I'm going to trust the terrain, trust the saddle. I'm going to trust my basic instincts as a hunter to be in the right place with the right vantage point and make sure we're doing the right thing in the moment so that if some opportunity did come along, we'd be ready for it. But what I was telling myself, literally the words in my mind,

were just wait and see what the mountain gives you. I'm just going to see what the mountain gives you. gives you. And it might be a dough. It might be nothing at all. And we're just going to have an experience out here and just going to enjoy this trip for what it was, but we're not going to kill anything. I just had done an interview to camera talking about this very thing, talking about how my dad was always really good at this. And that when I was a kid sitting with my dad, I just always remember him. And I would find him like annoyingly upbeat about it because he would be, man, this is the most beautiful sky. Golly, look at these leaves. This is just terrific weather. And we'd be

sitting out there. We hadn't seen a deer for six hours or something. And I'm thinking, we should be seeing more deer. Why isn't this going better? And dad would just be John about, you know, what a great maple candy this was or whatever. He was just always great at enjoying enjoying the experience and the surroundings. And I've always been very goal oriented, very achievement oriented. And so I naturally have, I have to work hard to like take a step back and just soak in things for what they are without striving for the next thing. And so I was speaking to the camera just about how

I need to be a little more like my dad in this moment because this seems like the kind of place that requires that. And really this is the kind of place that helps teach you to live like that a little bit. And I was kind of accepting of that. And thinking myself, man, we're down to just one more day or less, half day or whatever it was. And in my heart of hearts, I knew it was going to be a real long shot

to get something killed. And just moments after that, minutes after that, here comes that buck. So, you know, I don't know what you want to call it, but I kind of look that buck is a gift. You know, in this kind of hunting, you can't be validated by seeing game. I say that all the time,

even with bear hunting in national forest, deer hunting in national forest. And part of hunting is it's so fun to hunt in game rich areas. Yeah. So, like, there's nothing. It's so, fun to sit and watch a lot of deer but you have to go way backwards to be successful in the in the mountains you're just not going to see a lot of deer you know but i think that's a

good thing i i like to be able to go from both worlds because there's places i hunt in arkansas where we do see if i don't see a deer when i'm hunting i'm in the wrong spot just because you ought to be seeing deer every day you know every every every set you know every couple hours you in the mountains, not so. You know, you're just looking for that one chance at a deer. So anyway, good job, man. It was a lot of fun. I can't thank you enough.

And then we hauled the deer out on Izzy's back. We pulled the old rib slit behind the shoulder, put the deer over the saddle horn. Izzy hauled the deer out. And you said to me, this is how they hauled dead people out of here, too. Drape him over to his saddle. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And skinned it with.

Warner Glenn. Warner Glenn. What did you say? I said you skinned it with James Lawrence. Yeah, and then we took it back to James's house. Oh, yeah. We got to say something. Man, James Lawrence, of all the people I hunt with,

he is the best at very genuinely convincing you that he is more excited than you are about the thing that you've done. And he's no, he's no, I wanted to say respecter of persons, but like he doesn't really even know Mark and he genuinely was pumped for Mark. He was giving you a hug. He shook your hand and gave you a big hug. I think I'm more excited than you're.

He's like a bigger smile than you do. He's the perfect mentor in that sense. He'll always be excited for you when you need it. Yeah. Man, that's something that I aspire to be like because you can't fabricate it. You can't, it's not just like I said in this Warner Glen podcast, segue.

here, boys. He's a pro. He's a pro, gentlemen. Look at that. You can string words together in English and say sentences. That may be the right words. But if those words aren't connected to something really authentic, we all know it. I want to work on being that supportive and genuine inside of my interest in what other people are doing. And, boy, you can't fabricate.

It's got to really be like James, I believe, was very good. really pumped that Mark came, killed a deer here. And, you know, because he could have said, oh, wow, Mark, I'm proud of you. That's great. Good job. He ended his hunt early, knowing we were driving up to his driveway. He got out of his stand, came to see us. He was like Jones in because he knew Mark killed something.

Yeah. You know how I know that you are genuinely interested and excited about what somebody has to say? What do you do? You do this. And anybody that listens to your podcast will know this. Oh, no. You go. Mmm.

That's what you do. You got a real solid, mm, sound that you use a lot. Mm, mm, Mark. If you listen back. Do you think I need to tone this back a little bit?

No, it's good. It's your thing. That's pre-recorded when it hits a button. Yeah. It's a soundboard. The loud track. I try to teach my kids to be,

it's important in communication to be to give feedback to people. Yeah. Affirm. I'm not talking. to that rock on the wall. There's a mantle there. That's me.

I want to, I want some, I want some feedback. So I like to go, hmm. Yeah. Warner Glenn. This was the second podcast in our series. And I love highlighting people like Warner Glenn. Mark asked me yesterday, he was like, so give me the general sense of like why Warner Glenn would be a well-known guy.

And it's not like he's done like one thing that. made him who he is. It's more just the totality of who he is and what he represents. Part of it is his age to me that he's so special like in today's time. The older that somebody gets, the further back that their perspectives go and is the modern world continues to progress it like this incredibly rapid pace, I feel like some of these people that really have a timestamp on their life in the earth for the kind of view that they have of this planet. Every day we lose these people. And so I do feel a burden almost to talk to some of these guys just to see.

I mean, like, how do you view the world? You know, what is it like inside of your life? And interview Mr. Warner was like that for me. And he represents so much, but Andreas, you've listened to both the podcast. What did you think of? So you just said something interesting. He's lived a very authentic life close to the land. And historically, success has been around how well you can live within your resources.

As time moves forward and we modernize, that success has shifted away from like being close to the land to all the other things we've fabricated to have a successful. a successful society. And so I think that's why he's so special because his success is around his survival and his authenticity where monitoring success doesn't fall within that. So I think that's why I feel strongly about these stories as well, because it's so contrast to what has evolved in the pace we exist in, in the consumption. And someone like Warner Glenn has self-created. Obviously, he fell into that ranch because of his ancestors, but he has perpetuated his existence, and that's what's important.

I think that's something interesting that everybody here has also done. We're all sitting here because we have perpetually pursued our existence to be shooting a film or to be creating a brand around bear hunting or white-tailed deer. And so it's a little bit more modern what we do. guys like Warner, Glenn are inspirational in that sense. That's my take.

Yeah. Yeah, I like what really stood out is that he does something unique that I think is kind of lost in modern culture and that's being like tied to his property, his animals, so that, you know, he wakes up and sort of repeats the same thing, be it waking up at 4 a.m. And saddling the mules and running the dogs. Like he's really tied to his place. And he's been doing that, you know, it seems repetitious. He does that every day.

You've got to run the dogs. You've got to feed your animals. You've got to tend your land. But it's obviously given him like a deep sense of peace and longevity. He's been doing it for eight decades, right? And I, you know, I think folks now, every, it's that rush to, you know, work hard, work hard, retire. And then it's leisure time.

But he's, you know, it's obvious. It seems like it's extended his life and his well-being by just simply repeating that every day and having that connection to his property and his animals. And, you know, he's tied to his land. Did you hear when he said, he was talking about the reward of doing the kind of work that he does. And he said, if you're interested in monetary type rewards, that was the phrase that he used. Yeah, I remember that.

Yeah. Then you probably don't want to be a dry ground line hunter and a rancher. I like that because in today's world, it's almost as if there's only one option for what most people are thinking about, which would be monetary type reward. And I'm not saying everybody thinks like that, but I would say the vast majority of people, their lives are dominated by this idea that money is going is the end goal and that money is going to be what gives them the freedom that they want. And that is the American way. That is the, that is the Western philosophy that is deep, deep, deep. Even if you think you don't do it, you probably, that's somewhere. And I like it that Warner was just like, if that's the way, you know, he's like, there are two ways to look at life.

You could look at the monetary type reward system or you could. And I asked him, I said, what is the reward for your lifestyle? Because he said he's not doing it for the money. So like, what's your reward? And that's when he went into talking about the beauty of the land. and he talked about the creator and he talked about seeing the complexity of nature.

He talked about things connected to the tides and the moons and went a little fawn. Yeah. He kind of got poetic there for a minute. Well, don't you feel that the monetary pursuit is a very post-industrial evolution, post-war cultural effect? It's because we've become so productive

that we have that luxury of creating another form of survival game. But he doesn't have that luxury. He didn't choose to take on that lifestyle. So in a sense, he has found small rewards every day and throughout time, and he's built his own reward system. You kind of need that when you're surviving off the land in Arizona. What did you guys think about Kelly, Kelly Glenn Kimbrough,

with her being in movies and being the Ruger girl? That was pretty cool, isn't it? Yeah, just a wild, uh, out of circumstances, though, that family's found themselves in. You know, you wouldn't necessarily expect that this ranching family from down on the border would get tangled up in that kind of stuff. But they're more Hollywood than Andreas in some ways. Wow. More Hollywood than Andreas. Thank God. I think she just, she said yes to unique opportunities that maybe other folks wouldn't have the tenacity to do so. Like at the time, like her getting involved with Ruger when it was a really

like, you know, male-dominated industry and just taking that chance and being like, yeah, yeah, I'll go for it and being really successful at it. I think that's admirable. Absolutely. I agree with what Matt said, the opportunity, the seizing the opportunity, I imagine that they have become very good at that. She stayed, though, even through the Hollywood thing, it was cool that she still was just come back and drag around lion hunting.

And, you know, she didn't move to Hollywood and fly out right off from the sunset. She kind of kept her roots through it all. I thought that was kind of cool. You can't take time off. There's always work to do, especially in that environment. They teach you that in L.A.? No, they teach you that. that, I mean, I have a bunch of friends who are ranchers myself. I admire the work effort.

I mean, I like working. I think it's admirable to have a pursuit and become good at it and be very consistent. Consistency is everything in life. If you're consistent, you'll find your own success. Success is such a perverse word now. I mean, we should be able to find success in everything, even small, even big, and we shouldn't compare our success to others because then you'll never understand true happiness. I fall victim to that too, right? I think we all do in the sense of the modern environment, but however, I think they know to be successful every day they need to get up. All right, this well needs to be fixed. That fence needs to be fixed. I need to get my meals out here, whatever they need to do. It's not a lifestyle. I want to live, but I admire it greatly.

You know what, Warner said that stuck with me more than anything. It was right at the end of the episode, and it hit me like a pile of rocks. It spoke. to me probably because of the headspace I've been in lately. But you said something along the lines of, you know, what's the secret to the good life or something like that? And he sat there. I think he chuckled and he said, you know what? It's just to not worry about so many things.

There's just not a lot of things worth worrying too much about in life. You know, he went on a little bit from there about the simple things are often what matter the most and getting all wound up about all the others. it's just a quick way to get stressed out and worried and lose sight of the good stuff. And I'm so guilty of that so often. Over worrying, overthinking, et cetera, et cetera. And it was just like the thing that I needed to hear after six days, stressing about this thing, stressing about that thing.

And yeah, I mean, so much of our lives, whether we worry about financial success, worrying about career success, worrying about how many points are kids going to score in the basketball game, or worry about am I going to do this in a way that these people will think is right or that these people will like or whatever. And so much of it's so trivial. And people don't care about most of these other things. We build these false idols in our mind of what matters or what other people will think about us. And all we're doing is perpetuating our own misery.

And if we could all live like Warner a little bit more, not worry about as much, focus on a few important things, do them well, do them right. be there with your family and enjoy it all for what it is. Man, that's how you get to 85 and be riding 175,000 miles in a lifetime and killing 1,200 lions and just finding what you love and doing it and doing it well and let the chips fall where they may on everything else. You know, that statement that Warner made, I'm glad you brought that up because I've thought about that a lot since I was there with him because somebody else could have said that. and it would have just been like a cliche answer.

But I knew when he said it, he meant it. And he even said, he said, it's really hard to do. He said, it's hard not to worry about stuff. Yeah. And I've analyzed that because it's, it is very hard. I think everybody worries. I mean, like I have a really good life. I feel like I have a really stable life.

I worry about stuff. I mean, that would be like something, and somebody could be like, what are you worrying about? You know, you got a good family, you got a good job, you got this. It's human nature. It's perspective. Human nature is to worry about stuff. And I think it's point, and I think it would be backed by modern science is that anxiety and worry is probably one of the biggest health risks that we have long term.

It's just this weight on us that is about us all the time. It definitely does not help you live long time. The anxiety will take years off your life. What I've thought about and how to deal with that stuff is like think about all the stuff you worry about and then think about the resolution of that thing, whether it would even be like a year later. A year from now, will you remember the worry about the deer culture film? Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like, so it's like, can you skip the middleman and just say, you know what? I'm just going to try the best I can. I'm going to hunt as hard as I can for the three days every place I've got and like skip the middleman of worry. Yeah. It's hard to do. There's two things that I've found picked up from folks that I've found helpful

kind of exercises of sorts that can kind of help snap you out of that thinking. So one thing's known as fear setting. You ever heard of fear setting? So you look at a situation. Let's say I'm stressed out because I don't think I'm going to kill a buck on this hunt and this episode is going to suck and my show is not going to do all of that. So fear setting would be where you think, okay, there's this thing you're worried about. What's the worst case scenario?

You've played all the potential scenarios of what could happen here. Like, what's the worst thing that could happen? All right. So let's say I don't kill a buck and I'm a lousy TV show host and the show doesn't do good and nobody likes it. What's the worst thing that happens? Well, maybe the show tanks and I don't do shows anymore and I have to go do some other stuff.

I do podcasts or I write books or I whatever. Is that that that bad? Is that the end of the world? I still got amazing family. Still got a job. Still get to do fun things. Like you just look at it oftentimes the things you worry about are so silly and trivial. and the absolute worst case scenario isn't even that bad.

So all of a sudden you say, okay, can I live with that outcome? Yeah, it'd be fine. It's not that big of a deal. The other thing is the perspective shifting where I just think about something that actually matters. So anytime I'm stressed out or worried about something or if I make a dumb mistake, the quickest way I've found to snap myself out of it is, all right, let's say I miss a deer or a wound a deer or I don't kill a deer.

I flunk of whatever. And that bitter pill is hard to swallow. I'm sitting there wallowing in it. If I can remember to just look at a picture of my kids or just call the boys, something like that right there, there's like, man, all that other stuff is nothing compared to this. If you can just shift your perspective to the core, the very most important things,

and you realize, wow, I would sacrifice everything else, just as he'll have that, my sons, my family. Yeah. So those two things are little tools that have helped me a lot. Yeah. because I would be so susceptible to my, I am just like my natural personality type. I think success, I'm sorry, failure is not an option for you.

I think no matter what you'll find how to turn somebody into success, you've been doing this for a long time. You have that mentality. I think a lot of us here do. We don't allow this idea of failure to be an exit point because that's giving up is a terminal illness, you know. So. Yeah, if not plan A, it'll be plan B. If not B, we'll find a C.

Adapting. Not C, then D. I think you're very good at adapting. And there's nothing wrong with feeling bad. It's helpful to feel bad. Otherwise, how do you gauge what feels good? As long as you can turn that bad feeling into a problem solving. And you're a really good problem solver, Mark.

I mean, you too, Clay. Thanks, Andrew. I think everybody here is good problem solver, otherwise we wouldn't be here. Clay, I got a question for you. Yeah. So you got to spend some time with him and his family. You were there in person. Is there anything you took away from that, spending time with him, learning from him that you would apply to your own life?

Was there like a nugget or a lesson that you really? 100%. And I said this in less words on the podcast. I was impacted by the demeanor of Warner Glenn's humility. And I think it partly was my expectation. I'd never met the man before. Western cowboy, dry ground lion hunter, tough guy. I expected, and I said this, I expected a proud man, not a bad man, not a prideful man,

but just a guy that just was like, I am who I am, and what I saw was a humble man. And there were multiple things that happened even off when we weren't recording that made me think, like what I have responded that way, one of them, and this sounds so small. but sometimes small stuff impacts you. I asked him what color one of his mules were. And he said, I'd call his strawberry rhone. And then he said, you're a mule man. What would you call her?

And I just thought, that's a dumb question. I'm not a mule man. You're the mule man. And he was genuinely interested in what my interpretation of the color of this mule that he'd had on his farm for the last 15 years. And I guess just right where I'm at, my life, I have worked on boldness and confidence as a thing, moving out of insecurity and fear, movement towards boldness and confidence, which if you swing the pendulum too far, you become

arrogant and think you know it all. Here's this guy that should have, did have boldness and confidence, but also had no problem with me, this young guy that doesn't know anything, like telling him what color his mule was. His humility impact, the way he carried himself, he deflected praise. Like I would say, hey, Malpai Borderlands Group, you started this, you were this main guy, which he was.

He totally deflected that. And I see places in my life where I'm not wanting to deflect praise, and that's the stuff that'll get inside of your heart and screw you over because you're

building a case for yourself. that like I am something special. I mean, I am good at that. And it's okay to be good at stuff. And it's okay to know your capacity and have that confidence of, you know, I'm competent in this. But pride and confidence, there's a fine line between it. And I think we can go the wrong way.

And what I saw in Warner Glen was great boldness and confidence, but also a deep humility. And again, it goes, it's one of those things that you could say the words that he said and if it was connected back to a guy that really deep in his heart was prideful, it wouldn't have impacted me, but I saw a humility inside of him. The real question is, Clay, what color did you think that mule was? I had no idea, and I told him, I said, I don't know. It was, he called a strawberry roan.

And I agreed with him, but I would not have, probably somebody more versed in the equine world would have been able to, it was kind of a reddish base color, but a lot of white dappled into it. So yeah. Do you have a photo of that mule? Oh, yeah. You should post it on Instagram and ask the world. Well, there's no need to. Warner told it's strawberry rome, man. Well, I'm just curious. It's like the blue dress, black dress. Yeah, yeah. Maybe people see different rays of color. Hey, what did you guys think about Warner getting in a fight with a Border Patrol agent. I think that is an amazing story and that happens now, that person would never see

a lot of date again. And that's kind of sad because it was a personal, interpersonal conflict between two people who had had history together and sometimes something so simple like that could just relieve a bunch of stress or de-escalate in a weird sense, in a different environment. It could be a de-escalating scenario. instead of an escalating one, you know, where verbally they could have been assaulting each other. And maybe for the type of people they were, it would have been much worse. So you're saying like this like solved the problem they had.

I think it should have been okay. I don't know. No, no, no. I'm not saying it's okay. No, no, no. I'm not saying that's okay. I said it sounds like they had a relationship. Yeah.

That was escalating towards that. Yeah. And I think they were both consenting to that kind of relationship. They could have definitely solved it just by behaving differently. but neither of them at that time wanted to. So that's what I perceive it as. The details of the story were this. We didn't get into the actual details of the story.

So this is like big open country. They use that phrase, but it's true. It's just big open country. Well, they have roads through the farm. And one of these roads had a gate on it that just inhibited vehicular traffic on the road, just so somebody that's not supposed to be there could just drive down the road.

so it wasn't keeping cattle out. It wasn't doing anything. Well, Warner goes to his gate, and he sees that someone is driven around the gate and driven on the road. And he sees tire tracks on his grass, and out there grass is a very valued commodity for cattle. And so he's like, somebody drove on my grass.

And he had actually, like, sometime before, had talked to the Border Patrol because they come on his land freely, constantly, because of where he lives on the border. and he had seen so two or three months prior he'd seen tracks just driving through one of his fields he sees a Border Patrol agent

and he says hey I saw some strange tracks in my field and the guy goes it was me and Warner goes hey no problem do you mind next time trying to stay on the road and the guy this is a different guy than he fought the guy says no problem I'm sorry it was a mistake two months later Warner goes to this gate He sees tracks going around the gate, which they had a key to the gate.

So they could have just unlocked the gate and went through it. This new Border Patrol agent says, yeah, it was me. I drove around the gate. That's how it started. And then Warner's like, well, sir, you have a key. I have given you permission to come on my land. As a cattle rancher, I've asked you not to drive on my grass. That's the way I make a living.

And then the guy spouts off and goes, I can do whatever I want. I misunderstood that story. I thought it was the same guy. I thought it was a conflict that had... Well, the conflict was just with the agency driving on his land. But so there was a couple of guys that were like, no, just like, absolutely, sir, our fault, our bad. This guy came in with an attitude and was like, I can do whatever I want on your land because I'm who I am and I wear this uniform. And that's what made Warner mad.

Oh, okay. I misunderstood the story. retract my statement. Well, I think it could, your statement still made sense to me. Well, I just feel like it's dangerous because what happened is Warner had conflict with an organization of people. And this man, for whatever reason, triggered that negative energy. I don't think you should be disrespectful when he's allowing you, it's private land. He's allowing you to take access. And he's been so generous to you. I think there's other ways of doing things. Sure. I don't want to hate somebody. I don't think that's a very nice thing. I don't think he thought it was a nice thing either,

but he could just have a bad day. I struggled a little bit with putting it in there because it's not like we want to highlight and say someone's a hero for beating up a law enforcement guy. Yeah. That's actually the opposite. It's the opposite of everything. It's the opposite of what I'm saying about Warner Glenn being a humble man. That is the opposite of humility. It's also the opposite of just in general you're not going to want to do that in your life. I don't mean in her but I was going to say what I think showcased what you're speaking of, though, is how he processed what happened and how he spoke to you about it afterwards. Yeah.

And the fact that he said, you know what? Yeah, I got out. I had to own it. I took my, I took my lumps. I made a mistake. I became better for it, you know. Knows he shouldn't have done it now. He was hot in the moment.

Think about all the different options. Like, think really in your life of the people that you know in somebody, let me just get, okay, optionate. Like, there's different endings for this book. book to this point goes to Warner Glen getting in the fist fight and sure enough rubbing his face in the dirt. Did you like how he said that? I thought it was a real cowboy way to say it. He was just like, I put his face in the dirt. So option one is he gets in trouble. He defends himself to the point of like, I was justified in this. I don't care what you say. And he becomes bitter the rest of his life at the feds. And that bitterness would transform

translated into him giving them trouble for the next 80 years of his life. He stays up at night thinking about ways that he's going to stick it to the Border Patrol. That would be a very likely response. I mean, think about it. Some old cowboy out in the desert, that is a very real possibility. And then maybe there's just two endings. The other ending is the guy going, I made a mistake. This guy was, you know, the guy was in the wrong, sure.

In this individual little sector, this guy, yeah, was probably a punk. but it was a mistake and he wasn't embittered against the Border Patrol he has a great relationship with the Border Patrol but his ability to bounce back from doing something wrong

which that is a human trait that is a highly is a very valuable trait because everybody's going to mess stuff up so much your life is not getting it right every time but how you're going to respond when you do something wrong

because man bitterness is like the and I think that's part of what maybe Warner was insinuating talking about when the first thing that came out of his mouth when I asked him, what's the secret to having a good life?

He said, don't worry about stuff. I think that could be, I think people sometimes become embittered or fearful or hurt in some way by real negative interactions. But to be able to take that, grow from it, learn from it. And then sometimes I think in somebody's life, maybe the conclusion that you come to isn't always as direct in the person's mind.

But in the book, there's a book written about Warner Glen called Warner Glent, The Life in Times of an American Cowboy, I think is what it is called. The author Ed Ashurst is the one who made the conclusion that that interaction, when Warner was 47 years old, scripted the next, well, you know, now almost 40 years later in his life because he became very skillful at dealing with people that were in opposition to him, which he said he used to have a really volatile temper. It was an inflection point for him. And I think maybe in Warner's, you know, I mean, if you talk to him, you know,

it's not like he probably was just like, I will now change and become a great diplomat to the federal government. But it impacted him and he became somebody that was very influential in that part of the world. and they were known for bringing together groups that hated each other and were at odds with each other bringing them in. Man, guys like Warner, wherever they go, it seems like they bring stability and peace, just like, just an ability to just like walking through it, just like Warner Glenn riding up on his, you know,

bandito's carrying drugs across the border. Like he didn't get killed. he didn't the situation you know somebody could have gone into that and blew that situation up pull their gun what are you guys doing you got drugs dirty I mean freaked out or something or ran away or Warner just rides up on his

mule and just like hey you know olas megos got some drugs okay well we're just lying hunting seen any line tracks ride past just just to de-escalate the situation so that's what he learned to do which before maybe his

his thing was to escalate it It sounds to me like he's a really good leader, and it sounds like his daughter has acquired those skills from him. Did you get that impression when you were around them? Sure. Yeah, for sure. Just hearing her talk about her father or talking about the work or the activities they do, it just felt like she really benefited from his state of mind. It has learned a lot.

And I think that's super attractive. I imagine he had a lot of miles in the saddle to think about and replay that whole experience. like with the agent. Like he's, you know, when he's out riding the range and looking for the lions, I doubt he's got headphones on,

listening to a podcast. He's probably just reflecting on his life. He doesn't the bear grease. Yeah, of course, obviously. Right now, he's saying that.

But, yeah, I imagine he had a lot of alone time to really think about that, what impact that had on his life and how that could have gone in a lot of different ways. Yeah.

Like just being able to sit quietly with yourself and reflect on that. That probably helped him come to that conclusion. I got a kick out of when he told his old man about the experience. The old man's like, I can't do that to a law enforcement officer? Yeah, you wonder, you wonder like where that came from? He's like, wait, you can't? I thought that was, I kept that in there so much.

I liked it because his dad took his side. You know, his dad could have been mad at him. His dad could have been like, Warner, you're jeopardizing our whole life. You could, you know, he could have been, he could have scolded him. But his first response was to take the side of his son, which that could have gone either way, too. I mean, it seems natural that you'd take the side of your son, but not necessarily. I thought it was his way of explaining to his son that it's okay. Yeah.

In a very, very nice, relaxed manner. Man, do you think there's some old retired Border Patrol agent that's like, oh, man, like father-like son? Like Marvin's had a dust up before and he's like, not to throw shade on Marvin, I doubt that happened. But yeah, well, guys, thanks for, thanks for being guests on the Bear Grie's podcast. You're welcome. You're welcome. You guys are like the astronauts, gone to the moon. Thank you for having us, Glenn.

Thank you a million times for not only having us on the show, but having us at your family home, taking us out to your mountains, showing us the ropes. It's been a, it's been a treat. Yeah, well, it's been a lot of fun. Yeah, shout out to Gary and Judy. Yeah. Thanks to Easy as well. Yep. Yep. If we'd had a seventh mic or an eighth mic, we'd have had Judy and Gary on here with us. But next time. Next time. You really need it. Maybe you already have because I haven't got to listen to all the render episodes. But the world needs to know about Gary's detail-oriented white-tailed white-tailed white-tailed.

Were you impressed? I was really impressed. Your dad is way more whitetail gear savvy than you are, Clay. Oh, white-tail gear for sure. he's in it nuanced yeah yeah yeah and see oh man we've now started a whole other segment of the podcast part two i am the way i am because he's the way he is you went the opposite direction i really did i will just lay out this illustration this one simple thing told me so much about clay when we packed up camp to head in to go hunting the mountains and he had his climbing sticks they were loose there were ropes everywhere and he was just shoving individual single sticks into the pandears of the horse.

I'm thinking, man, is this how you operate? Got to fit him in there, Mark. Yeah, different strokes for different folks. And your dad is, though, talking about how he's drilling his climbing sticks to reduce weight, and he's using am steel ropes to be as quiet as possible, and discussing how he saw a photo of how I stacked my sticks on the back of my backpack and how envious it made him and how he wanted to find new ways to organize and stack his sticks.

Hey, I would say this in front of my dad, so this is not like hiding something. but like his, the way he handled hunting stressed me out as a kid. Because we had to, I mean, it's classic father-son stuff. We had to, you know, try to meet his standards for stuff. And it stressed me out. And so when I left the coop, when I went to college and started hunting on my own, I went into a season of life that my hunting was very shortened because I had a family and was trying to build a career in life.

And I had to determine what were the limiting fact, true limiting factors of my hunting. And I cut off a bunch of stuff. And I don't tell anybody, but I actually killed way more deer. All right. No one gets a rebuttal. Thank you, guys. Very good. I appreciate it.

Great week. Thank you, Clay. Keep the wild places wild because that's where the deer go through the saddles. On blood trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get dark. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bag. And there was a full of blood.

Oh, my God, he doesn't have a head. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors. Where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper, from cold case files to whispered suspicions. From remote mountains to frozen backwoods, each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest.

Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season two of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, Iheart, YouTube, or wherever. you get your podcasts. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.