Bear Grease - Ep. 268: Render - Always Pick the Head Wound

Episode Date: November 6, 2024

We are back at the Bear Grease Headquarters this week as host Clay Newcomb and the crew welcome former Missouri Game Warden and artist, Kyle Carroll. Discussion of the previous week’s podcast on Osceola heats up with Bear Grease Trivia, Bear presents Kyle with a handmade traditional arrow with stone point, and Kyle talks about what it was like to be an extra on the blockbuster movie The Patriot. Stay tuned for an upcoming caucus for inductees to the Bear Grease Hall of Fame. If you have comments on the show, send us a note to [e-mail] Connect with Clay and MeatEater Clay on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, and Youtube Clips MeatEater Podcast Network on YouTube Shop Bear Grease MerchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. First Lights fieldwear collection is made for the work that happens long before opening day and continues when the season ends. Products built for early mornings, full days in real use. Hard wearing where they need to be versatile where it matters. No shortcuts. Just gear designed for the work that earns the season.

Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new field. Worldware Gear at firstlight.com. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called the Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast. Presented by FHF Gear, American Made, Purpose Built, Hunting and Fishing Gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. We have got a lot to cover today, fellas and lady.

We've put off a very important thing that needs to happen in the Bear Greece world that hadn't happened in a long time. We're not doing it today, but I want to talk about it today. Once again. It's so important that we have to plan this. And I want, well, there's a couple of reasons why we haven't done it yet. But it's going to be spurred on by this picture. This is a picture of Granny Henderson.

These are the photos that were in National Geographic in 1977. I looked those up after you mention them. Yeah. And so I had these frame to put here in the office. But in the next month, we are going to do a bare grease induction into the Hall of Fame. I'm not saying she's going to be on it. She should be. It's just.

I smell a nomination. Yeah. There might be a little foreshadowing there, but think about the last time we did an induction was at least a year and a half ago. Been that long? Yeah, because when you have a Hall of Fame, you can't just let every little ticky-tack Joe Schmoe you talk about be in the Hall of Fame. Yeah, like somebody passes away or if you retire from baseball. balls like five years before you can vote on them going in. Right.

So it's not emotional. You got to look at the merit. Right. So it's been a long time. And we're actually going to, we're building a plaque that's going to have brass plates on. It's going to say Barregris Hall of Fame. Like this one that says my name. Yeah.

And it's going to have all the inductees. You have to be dead for five years, though, but I end up on it. It's going to have inductees. And under the inductees name, I would like to put the years they were. alive and if they're still alive today which we have multiple bearerese hall of famers that are still alive today you know we'll leave that open we won't James Lawrence Roy Clark Roy Clark Warner Glenn Warner Glenn who's like 89 I think now yeah we'll probably outlive all of us still

ranching down there yeah so but I want you to be thinking about it so Brent I want you to be thinking about I'll tell you where we stopped we stopped when we got to Davy Crockett. So the current members of the Bear Greas Hall of Fame, just so you kind of get the idea of who's in it, is Daniel Boone. James Lawrence was actually the first. I'm going to call James Lawrence the first. James is my friend in Arkansas, backwoodsman still alive.

Roy Clark, who is a plot breeder, bear hunter, extraordinaire over in, you. East Tennessee. Roy Clark, I don't even want to tell people how many bears he's been responsible for killing. Not because it's illegal. No. Because like when you hear about like guys killing, you know, like 500 bears in their lifetime. Yeah. I can tell you that Roy Clark has killed a lot more than that.

That was with them like two weeks ago. And I asked him and another guy that was with us and they didn't even have a number. And it's not it's not just ones that he pulled the trigger on. participated in. Yeah, and his dogs treat. So, okay, I'm sorry. Daniel Boone, Roy Clark, James Lawrence, Warner Glenn, Frederick Gerstocker, the Arkansas,

well, he was a German bear hunter, came to Arkansas. Friedrich, actually. Friedrich. Yeah. Gershacker. Wow. That's what it sounds like when it's filtered through that mustache. Gerstalker was the first, well, the fourth,

the third episode of Bear Grease was called Death of a Bear Hunter. Yeah. Great episode. People still talk about that. That's the one Joe Rogan talked about. Yeah. And it was all about Frederick Gerstocker. Yeah.

And so Gerstocker, one that you may have forgotten, but is very well deserved, is Oralee Province. Oh, gosh, I did forget about that. He passed away a month after I interviewed him at the age of 92, and he killed the two bucks in 1969. that scored in the 180s in the Ozarks on public land and he was just a hillbilly but but just like a I just loved him and

just it was just the epitome like I'll never meet anybody in my lifetime that was more from another era wasn't he the one that pointed you toward that's right he's the one who told me where he believed Erskine was buried and I want to

I'm kind of weaving. You know, Donald Trump does the weave, they say. Like that's what he said when he talks. I think that they're talking about his hair. Well, no, no, no. He does he weaves a tapestry of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a new thing that he...

Conversation. So I'm kind of doing that. But O'Reilly Province, when me and Mo Shepherd basically communicated with him, he said, I'll tell you where it is, but don't tell anybody else. Because there's a place that Ory hunted. It was like a good hunting spot. Yeah.

And so I said, great, I won't tell anybody where it's at. And we made that promise. And I've held that promise. People ask me all the time where it's at. Really? Even to the point of someone writing a book wanted to include it as a destination in this like American, big American book of destinations. And it was going to do this big ride up on it and it was going to be like a big deal. and they came to me and were certain

that I would tell them where it was based upon the project. How about no? And I just said, and take a left. Well, I just said, I said, I promised a dead man that I was not going to tell him.

I mean, maybe if I could go back and negotiate with him, like I could. Right. But I said, you're bound to secrecy for the rest of your life. I will not tell where it's at. So that orly province is in there.

And he also, I think one of the most interesting things about ORI is he got drafted. His number came up in the draft and his brothers had already gone to war. But his preacher wrote a letter and asked if they could wait until after the tomato crop came in because his dad had died and his brothers were all at the war and they needed someone to help his mom with a tomato crop. So they gave him a deferral and the war ended in September and he was supposed to go in October. Yeah. Pretty crazy. And he did. Yeah, I remember that now. He he was the youngest son and his brothers were at war

and his father died. Yeah. And so it wasn't like he was trying to get out of going. No, no. Like he was, he wanted to go. But they needed a man there to help with the family, you know, and harvest that tomato farm.

We raised tomatoes. Man, I really had to thought about that. Go to war. You think he'd eat tomatoes. You think Ory was probably like, let's go. Okay. whatever.

In government or tomatoes. A story that stands out in my mind that or he told me was he said one day he and his brother were coon hunting

out here in the Ozarks and his brother they had guns and were coon hunting and he said they saw a lantern out in the woods and they kind of

start walking towards it and there's this bright light shining and they start hollering at the light like hey who are you what's going on

I mean, this is way out where nobody should be. And he said the person wouldn't answer. And he said his brother was like, if you don't tell me who you are, I'm going to shoot your light. Like they were going to, like, shoot at the light, which is like not a great idea. It's a little risky. Right.

And I believe that's a manslaughter charge of the very minimum. I'd have to go back and listen to see if he actually shot the light. But it ended up being the reflection of the moon in a small pool of water that they didn't know was there. I remember him saying that. The spooks are out. So, okay, where are we at?

We've been weaving. We've got James Lawrence, Roy Clark. A camera. No, no, no, no. We hadn't told me on the Hall of Fame. You got a couple more. Warner Glen.

You haven't mentioned Holt. Holt Cawley. Ticumsa. Yeah. Ticumsa. Chonnie Leader, Tcumsa. Holt Collier, which was the Mississippi Bair Hunter killed 3,000 bears, guided Teddy Roosevelt.

People talk about that episode all the time. And one of my personal favorites, George McJunkin. And George McJunkin, who discovered this awesome site. Was George the last one? Or Holt was the last one? I think Tecumse was the last one. Ticumsa was the last one. So that was a year and a half ago.

So I'm just going to throw out a few names of people that have been on. We've had a Davey Crockett episode since then. That was going to be my nomination. We've had a Granny Henderson. We've had a Barry Tarleton over in East Tennessee, the moonshining constable that had the big line of plots. So are you making nominations? Well, once we get the regulars,

we're going to get Dad back up here, Gary Newcomb, and we have all the regulars here. I'm going to put it on the table for nominations. But you're kind of hinting right now, hinting at who you want us to do. Well, I don't know. No. I mean, so we really need to discuss it. We need to discuss it. Because we really need to discuss, like, what are the qualities of a Berger's Hall of favorite? Well, and does it have to be someone that we've taught there's been an episode on? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's got, I mean, that's, that, that is a qualification. You just have, like, a friend from high school that you'd like to nominate.

Joe Dalton, he was a good buddy, man. That guy can skin a squirrel. He sure liked the podcast. I think we should put him in the Hall of Fame. So that's big. So Bearers Hall fame coming up. This is serious. Okay. Oh, I was going to tell everybody, you remember Miles Malone from the Deer Stories episode? The branch full of acorns fell in front of his camera.

Oh, yeah. And he was checking his camera. Going out there to check his camera. Maltry sent him a camera in like a year's worth of. a year worth of cellular plant. So he wouldn't have to go out there. So he would have known that that buck was there before. Oh, that's good.

So Maltry listened to that and they were like, this guy. We got to help this guy out. So they sent him a camera, which I thought was cool. I thought it was very cool. Man, we are going to, let me introduce our guests. Oh, Ms. Newcomb. So great to have you. It's been a while since you've been here.

Yeah. Where have you been? He's been knitting his shawl. I just know y'all keep the AC on. Oh, we're trying to get it. Cool in here. It's good to see you. It's good to be here.

I want to talk to you about the Japanese study that I mentioned earlier. Brent Reeves, always great to have you. Yeah, buddy. Me and Brent spent a week down in Venice, Louisiana. I was a little jealous about that one. You should have been there. Bro, it was good. That was.

Did you any fly fishing right down there? No, not a lick. Redfish would be awesome. That's on my bucket lines Any way you want to catch those things It's fun Yeah It was fun

I did eat some of that fish Hey what I tell you what I'll Yeah I gave you some tuna I'll tell you what I'll learn down there Brent Tuna Do you like the tuna? I thought the tuna was good

Yeah I was wondering Because I know you're not a big fish eater I ate it Yeah I ate it I mean Listen this is after a week of being in Venice

I love it down there It's like a gritty Florida Like a Venice The Gritty Florida Yeah, but one thing I did learn is that you feel like the culture in the South is really hospitable and very nice and like, like gentlemanly. Are you sure you want to alienate an entire state?

Well, I'm not. I'm not. These people are the nicest people you've ever met in your life. But to the ear of a lot of this country, they would be rude. I'm not alienating them. I asked the question. Don't look at me, Phil. I don't know who you are.

No, no, no, no. Let me give you an example. We walked into a restaurant, and there's this lady there that we know. Oh. And we, I know that lady is pumped that we're down there. And she's like, our best friend. And we walk in the restaurant, and she immediately is like, now, y'all aren't going to just sit anywhere you want.

You are all going to have to sit together right here. But it wasn't rude. it was grandmotherly. Well, but I'm just saying. Get your elbows off the table before I knock them

before I break your arm. Right. And you know that she loved you but she probably would break your arm. I just felt like there was a trick. I think Juju would not break Clay's on it. I don't think she had threatened.

But yeah, the world would probably a little bit better. I think there's a trend. This is actually a compliment to them. It's not a dig even remotely. But there's a trend of being like very direct

and very antagonistic to people they like. I get that. I don't think it's antagonistic. I just giving you a hard time. This is the way it is. I get that. I work with playing. Y'all ain't going to sit anywhere.

That's what I was saying. Kind of like someone we know. Well, no, I love it down there. I love those people. Venice Marina. There should go. Cypress cold. Our real guest of the day is Kyle, man.

You are. Good to be back. You're up in. Northwest Missouri. You Kyle Kyle Carroll

he's a painter Yeah And a retired game warden And he painted this He painted this for me Retired State Trooper Well not retired But former state trooper

Yeah retired state trooper I retired as a trooper Most of the time Was a game warden most of that career But yeah Both is true So yeah Reforming

I'm reforming You know What are you painting these days Kyle? You know, actually the thing that's on the easel has been on there for a month because I've been doing other stuff is a bear sent me a little shot. Remember last fall when you were in that big rock house? Oh yeah, with the rock house? Yeah, I don't know what a fire under it? I was trying to put a couple of long hunters in that little rock house. It's not much to work with, but that's what's on there. So it's a picture that bear sent, or it was that background.

Yeah. Kyle also sent me a big buck. It was like an 11 point, Mr. October. Yeah. But that was incredible. That was like a very realistic painting of a big buck. You could tell it was in October, too, just by the way the landscape around it. That's the trade. Oh, yeah. You got me this arrow that we've been trying to get together on for it.

That's a squirrel cookoff. He said, I said, I'm in my truck. So I go a half mile back to his truck, and he's doing the clicker from there. They won't open. I'm like, forget it. I'm going on. So we finally got together on it. So is that a flintnep?

Yeah, this is... Bear made that arrow. It was just one that didn't really fly good. It looks good, but... It's for the studio. Yeah, it looks. That's legit. Bear, you're working on that bow back there?

Yeah, I'm working on an elm bow. I showed this last time, but I've made a little bit of progress since. But I'm doing a rounded belly on this one, so it'll be a little different than most of the bows I make. But I still hate working with Elm. The more I work with this one, the more I work with this one, the more I... I realize O'Sage is the best one. O'Sage is king. Yep.

Well, and of course we have Josh and bear with us. Thanks here. Hey, Misty. Okay, so did you hear my description of the, of the, tell us about the, so the first Osceola podcast was basically Osceola's childhood. And I talked about identity being really a powerful time for lifelong identity. between the ages of 9 and 13.

Describe that study better than I did. Well, yeah. So that study, and there have been some studies that don't completely align with this, but that study shows that the Japanese government, you know, Japan and California, there's a lot of people going back and forth, traveling back and forth between Japan and California and probably other parts of the U.S. on the West Coast. And I think it was a Japanese government that basically sponsored a study to, or wanted to understand how people maintain their sense of Japanese identity,

even if they travel, and whether or not they do. And that particular study that you quoted showed that the thing that determined whether they did wasn't anything that you did in childhood, but was the specific time period that they lived outside of Japan. So if they lived in Japan, you know, between the ages of zero and nine, but then moved to the U.S. And then even if they came back, like after the age of 14, if they lived in the U.S., generally during that period of 9 to 13, that time period was significant in determining whether or not they came back and said,

I'm an American or I'm a Japanese. So if they were in America during that time period, they thought they were considered themselves Americans. If they were there, if they were in the U.S. as little kids and then moved to Japan between the age of 19 to 13. they said I'm Japanese. If they lived in the U.S. I think I did a pretty good job of describing that.

Between 9 and 13. So, okay, so here's the question. Where were you, Kyle, when you were between the ages of 9 and 13? Running the hills of northwest Missouri. And then that produced kind of a lifelong identity. Yep. And there's studies at show, and I think this is kind of interesting in thinking about, like someone running around in the hills of northwest Missouri.

The study, that Japanese study, there's actually studies that show, well, that's not exactly the case. But what's going on between the ages of 9 and 13 is pretty important because that's, that is like a very well-documented. What do you mean what's going on? What's going on in the brain? There's a very well-documented process that happens. Josh, it was the fourth grade, 9-13.

They call it the brain. All four years. All four years. The fourth grade A, fourth grade B, four-th grade C, first grade. But you got it. I'm so sorry. I mean, I have something very intelligent to share here. Sorry.

And we're talking about Josh's repetition of the fourth grade. He's fictitious, right? I mean, you didn't even have it. Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls in building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts. Now, I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use. I'm not going to go, I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen.

But when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for. I have a great turkey hunting track record. if you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contests, right? That's who I listen to. I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps's cut, and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts.

Check out Prime Cuts at Phelpsgamecalls.com. I think you'll be glad you did, and you'll find out that the Steve Ronella cut is an easy-to-use cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good. turkey noises and getting action. They call it the great brain remodel. Like that's what they, or maybe they don't call it the great brain remodel.

I call it great. That's what we're calling it. They do call it brain remodeling. And it's basically, you know, when you're a little kid, you just absorb everything. Like you see little kids can just pick up languages when they go to other places, way easier than their parents can. And that's because your brain is just absorbing everything. Well, there's too much.

Like the brain can't handle for this whole entire life, absorbing everything. And so around that time period at the, at the start of puberty or right before kids start to basically... This show has kids listening to it. Let's try not to use words like the puberty. So they start to prune out some of those. The brain starts to prune. And basically what it uses, it really strengthens.

It's like kind of the use it or lose it time period. And of course, the brain can change all throughout life. So like if kids are like using their hands or if they're on a computer screen or if they're doing math. know a language when they're five, but then move away from a country. And when you're 23, you're like, you spoke that fluently when you were five. Well, their brain was like, yeah, we didn't really use that from the age of 9 to 25. So, you know, not important anymore. So it kind of prunes out what it doesn't use, but it really strengthens what it does use.

So that's what is going on in middle school. You know, for most Americans, they would be in middle school at that time, but that age range. And so it's not that you can't change after that, but it's just the brain. brain is kind of cleaning itself out and really honing in. It's kind of imprint. And what's going on in their life, too, not just the skills. Like when your guest talked about Bonnie and Clyde, you know, that outlaw part of it, I immediately had already thought about Jesse James and his nine to 13 year old growing up and his dad being hung in the barn and war and dying and all the stuff on the border.

And it's kind of a similar time period. and what then they're capable of, but then we somehow revere their stand against, you know, all that's tied up in that. So I thought of that, too, when you, the age thing. What are we doing between 9 and 13? Prison. We're wearing a pair overalls?

I was. 9 and 13, I was, man, living life, not wearing shoes and running amok. I mean, that was the most structured thing that I did. a little Brent Reeve bio piece here. Okay. I was born in 66. Okay, so nine would have been from 75 to 1979. Mm-hmm.

I was born in 1979. I was hit home runs, but. You could have been my father. You're still out. You were old enough to get his older brother. No, that's not true. You're grounded. Oh, man, I was hitting home runs at the Y, the league field.

Did y'all know that Brent played like one, season of college football? I did. I did not know that. I did not. Or at least that's what is undercover, his backstory. It was last year. It was Boise, Idaho.

It's cold. Henderson State University. Really? Did you know that's where Gary Newcomb went to college? I did. I saw a plaque. There's a rocket chair there, just like this one got Gary Newcomb's name on.

None of which is true. It's getting deep in here. A lot of lies being thrown around today. None of which is true. The college football is true, though. That formative time, especially when she's today, and when you've talked about that now, I think about, you know, I didn't have the, I had a wonderful childhood, but some children have issues. And I can remember during that time having issues growing up, behavioral issues where I was, well, I wouldn't mean I was mischievous. And that has, I'm still that, still the same way.

You know, it was, I wasn't trying to make anybody mad or hurt anybody, but I was playing, which, you know, I play, I'm 58 years old and I've interrupted you three times. It's true. It's true. Being a kid. That's right, Barry. Still misdievous. Being a kid, you know, so I see where that has a lot of correlation.

There's got to be a lot of validity to that. You know, I think about the even, we talk about like recruiting kids into the outdoors and when to start. And there's a lot of laws. Like in Arkansas, like, a kid can hunt when they're six years old, actually hunt. But in a lot of other states, they can't even hunt until they're like 12.

Yeah. Which is surprising to me. It was me too. Six in Missouri, too. I think I would, yeah, six. And that was just changed a few years ago. There was no law. And I think like two-year-olds started like checking in deer.

Oh, yeah. You would see the, you'd see deer. pictures of during youth weekend this three-year-old sitting up there. And dad's like, six-month-old can't hold its head up right and can't put some help manned Yeah, and you really can't go interrogate a three-year-old. Yeah, nice to hear, buddy. Well, okay, so talking about hunting. And so I would, I would have been nine to 13 between like 1988, 1998, 1992 or something, which was the, which was the beginning.

beginning of the American White Tail Industrial Complex. Just let that sink in for a minute. You just make that up? I've heard my friend Steve Ronella say that phrase before, but I think he's the one that made it up. But basically when White Tails became big business,

that's when it's not, the North America White Tale started in like the late 70s, but in the 90s is when it just like blew up. That's when, That's when videos VHS, that's when Will Primos, Nightingale,

the Drury's, Dan Fitzgerald, all the people started coming on the scene. That's when hunting TV started like blowing up more. And so in that period of time, I just became super infatuated with like watching all the stuff

and hunting, you know. And it just, it almost feels like Like it could never leave, you know, but interesting. Yeah, it is kind of interesting. If you look at all the guys like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, all the guys that got big in tech, they had access to computers when they were really young at their schools. And most schools didn't have them at that age.

And they were the ones that went on to be early developers. So it's kind of like you guys at that crucial period. But I think what's kind of cool about the human brain is that you actually can still learn stuff, even if you didn't get exposed to it that period. And thinking about Osceola, you know, he was really exposed to these stories when he was younger, younger than that time period. But it's not like everything when you're younger goes away.

It's just the things that are not reinforced during that age period to do. And so it's clear that he was a big key figure in his life, even still through that time that kind of allowed him to. Josh, let's do the trivia. Let's just jump right into trivia. Okay. So I am, I am, I have some, I have a few questions. Josh has a few questions, but I'm not going to participate. No, I want you to participate.

Okay, you want me to participate? Okay, well, here's how it's going to work. Is that even fair? It's kind of like having the teacher. Yeah, I don't think it's, I don't think it's fair. At least you participate. You should answer last. We're going to get some boards so we can write answers down because I don't like this.

Everybody just blurting things out. We need where everybody can write something down. So next. So what are the rules then? Very quickly. We don't need to belabor it. Okay. What I want is I want for everybody to answer and be honest.

Don't just say it because don't change your answer. Don't change your answer as if you wrote it down and we'll just keep track of who gets. So I'm asking for Brent mostly, but what if we don't have an answer? I'm just saying, you know, I'm not saying that. I always pick C. Okay, Josh, let's just move through them pretty quick. Let's not take a lot of time. Okay, number one.

When did the Seminole Wars start and end? Bear. Ended in 1763. Oh, gosh. That was the French and Indian War. I can't remember when it started. 18, 18. Okay.

Oh, no. Well, you didn't answer the whole question. When they start and end? Yeah. I think we got to raise our hand if we know the answer. Okay, I think there's a lot of people who don't. Raise your hand to say, I'm not running the numbers. Yeah.

Okay, Brent, what is it? 18, 17 and 1818. Well, I mean, that's when it started. That's when it started. When did it end? Oh, 1823. Nope. I don't know.

I just forget. It started in, there were a couple, basically between 18, 17 and 1819. It started, but it ended in 1858. How can it start in 1817, 18, 18, between 1828. Well, like, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, Like when it started is actually, you hear people say... According to the podcast, it started in 1817 and it ended in 1858. These are all derived from the podcast.

So we're going on what... Question number two, raise your hand if you know the answer. How much? Hold on. Let me... Let's talk about that for a second. Let's go do this pretty quick. It was already raised.

No, no, no, no. 41 year war. 41 years ago. I mean, how long has the... As the U.S. in Afghanistan? How long have you? I've been in life. 20.

20? Yep. I mean, so. World War I was four years. World War II was six. Vietnam was 12 or 10. Who knows? Depending on when you...

It ended in 72, and it's kind of conjecture on when it really started. See, that's just like the start. Yeah. But 41 years of war. I mean, that's like massive. That's a... Okay. All right.

Good job. Question number two. Raise your hand if you know the answer. How much were the seminal people paid for the 28 million acres annexed by the U.S.? Per acre? Nope, not per acre. That's all I got. That's what I got.

And that answer was less than, not a full. So be honest with your... Okay. I'm going to go $221,000. I'm a less than if you wouldn't accept the less than a less than an acre. Yeah. I think it was, 21,000 is what I'm thinking in my head.

I was thinking 218,000. The answer is, Baranukum, 221,000. So what was astonishing about that? And it's hard to, when you talk about money from that far back, it is hard. Obviously, it was going to be a lot less.

Yeah. But they paid like a 63rd of a cent per acre. which even back, which back then was not a lot of money. No. Here's a contrast. I got a podcast coming out Friday. I don't know when this one's coming out. But anyway, on the one that I'm talking about,

there's a guy that tried to barter a section of land for 14 deer dogs. And you figured that out today. It was over $200,000 for 14 dogs. Wow. And they gave those folks less than a. cent for an acre. Yeah, and then they reneged on that trip. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah. That was the astonishing part of that is that they made this treaty, which not all of the Muskogee creeks, I mean, like they didn't agree to it. There were just some people there. They're like, here, this is what we're going to do. And there were, as I understand it, some Muskogee creeks that did sign it, but that doesn't mean that all of them did. and they didn't have a centralized government.

You know, so the Americans just were coming from this, like, European mentality of centralized government. There's presidents and leaders that speak for the people. Right. But they did not, I mean, it's like, their way of governing was just so different. Right. And then so they agreed to it. And then, uh... But then it was revoked.

Yeah, yeah. And then like six years later, they're like, tell you what. Never mind. Forget that. Forget that fourth out, you know, four million acres, which was people. Peanuts even then, but a 4 million acre reservation that the Seminoles were supposed to stay on, they were like, hey, we're going to take that to you. We all go on to Oklahoma. Crazy.

Okay. Question number three. According to Dr. Wickman, approximately how many Seminoles were believed to be in Florida at the highest point in the early part of the worst? Raise your hand if you know the answer. Look at old Bear Newcomb over there. What is it? I'm going to say 5,000. 5,000.

Yeah. The answer is 5,000. Man, what were you doing between the ages of 9 and 13? I was mozying around. Moses. He was mozied. Okay, question number four. Who described Osceola as five foot eight inches high with a manly, frank, an open countenance?

Oh, the guy's name? Yeah, the guy's name. Oh, man. I may know his first name. I don't remember his full name. Okay, John Sprague. Okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I didn't know that.

You didn't even give us a chance. You didn't even give him a chance. Nobody had, nobody had it. Well, see, now, I'm gonna critique you like Renella does on his show. Like, like Renella does on his program that he's in charge of, that he's in charge of the ratings for it. And I'll spend it hard to you. And I'll spend it hard to you. So, he gets to talk about it.

See, that, that question. was such a tertiary question. Like, nobody cares what that guy's name was. That's okay. It's a test of knowledge. But trivia's got to have some tinge of, like, fun to it. Okay. That was not fun.

Who, what was the name of the Indian agent that Osceola assassinated? Raise your hand if you know. You should know that one. What? Oh, come on, guys. Wait. His name was mentioned at least six times. This is his first name.

Thomas. Yeah, wasn't that guy? You're in the family of names. Tom Woolly? Tom, dole. Tom, okay. You're a couple of vowels, right?

Yeah, you got it backwards. Okay, nobody has an answer. This name was Wiley Thompson. Not Tom Willie. Okay. Let's talk about, let's talk about, it's okay if we talk about it. Yeah, that was an interesting story. Here's the other, this is the little inside bear grease thing.

Part of the quiz, too, is that it gives us entry points to talk about what was going on. So it's okay if we're having like meaningful conversation about the podcast. I thought that part was really interesting in the podcast because the fact that Wiley Thompson put Osceola in irons. It just unilaterally made a decision with no authority behind it to lock this guy up. I mean, I think Wiley Thompson would have had to have known enough about Osceola to know that this is. a bad idea. Like,

this is not going to turn out for me. Maybe it was just a plum arrogance. I think, ultimately led to his demise. I think Osceola was,

I mean, you saw it documented several times in there that he would, I mean, he would lie to an Indian agent. Right. I mean,

which I'm not really faulting him for because, I mean, these people were like trying to kill them and steal their land. So, but he would, he would say,

I mean, he was kind of a trick, he was, cunning. If you remember in the description, they, one of the guys said that, that Osceola was

When you talked about his mind, said his mind was active, not sharp. Not strong. Not strong. Active, not strong. And I think like if you would have described, I'm just reading in, like big time, reading in, but the impression that I get, like the research I've done in Osceola

is that, I mean, he was like a wily guy, like a tricky guy. like he'd look at you and say hey this is what we're going to do and then he'd slip around and you know yeah do something completely different now like a lot of the and and and that's not a I'm not saying that's a fault he was doing what he had to do to build this resistance at just what it's just what it took but anyway so I think maybe Wiley Thompson did not know who he was dealing with like he felt like he was dealing with just like it could be that this guy was, like Brent said, just you are going to kind of be the law west of the Paco's.

You know, you're going to have to be in charge, but he might have been one of those overbearing type. You know, this is, I'm in charge. I'll do whatever I want. And that's the wrong guy. That's the wrong kind of personality. Well, he was used to, also he was used to dealing folks that recognized his authority. Yeah. Those folks, that were like, exactly.

This dude, what's his name? We can't get his name right. No, Tom Wolley? Yeah. Yeah, treat people like you want to be treated because it might come back and bite you. Yeah, I don't know you well enough to miss you if you died, fellow. Exactly. Now you're going to tell me that I got to get into Calaboose.

Yeah. I got something for you. Can you imagine being an Indian agent? No. So their job was to befriend, just deal with, communicate with, live with some degree. Lytoo. Lie to. Yeah, I just.

And so, yeah, boy, that would have been an interesting job to be a U.S. Indian agent. A lot of those guys got killed, too. A lot of them got killed. It'd be interesting to know how many of them, the percentage of them, actually looked out, the situation being as it was, not that they manufactured, but how many of them actually worked in the best interest of the natives? I bet the percentage is low. Yeah.

Well, and I think it would be hard to quantify that too Because I mean, it's like Different scenarios might be Might be It would be very hard to quantify I know, I know It'd be very hard to quantify

Yeah, yeah, yeah All right, Josh Okay, question number six What was the name of the U.S. general Who captured Osceola under a flag of truce? Swartzcalf Oh, I forgot to raise my hand. Missy, you remember?

No. Oh, man. Now, this is, okay, I'm a little disappointed, guys. Okay. The answer is General Jessup. Oh, that's true. Now, okay, what was not in the podcast was that Jessup was one of the longest serving U.S. military generals of all time. He was in the U.S. military military for 52 years as a general.

Wow. He started in like 19 or 18 early in the Seminole Wars and like went like to the Civil War. Wow. Oh, dang. So he also did the same Jessup. Okay. Yeah. He did not win any friends for that either.

Well, you heard how they were like, they were ridiculing him. Yeah. 50 years later. Yeah. Because of the deception. Yeah. The flag of truce and all that. But, you know, I thought of listening to that on the way.

down. Remember when Boone goes out at Boonesboro and they're going to have the talk with the Indians and the Indians are like, okay, on three go and they try to grab him. So it's the same thing the other way, you know, it's, but we would look down on that as deception. They looked down on, and it was. It was dirty, dirty pool, but. Yeah. War is war, man. Yeah. That's what I thought too, kind of. War is war. If they had a chance to get Jessup, he's dumb enough to walk into it. Yeah. Well, you know, sure to thought about it.

You get these little, like, micro windows into that world that I think paint the picture of what it was like. The thing about it was that made it so tricky is that he had met with military, U.S. military generals, like bunches of times before. And, but, I mean, that had to go into the planning. I think, we can get him here. If we just get him here, we'll get him caught and we'll go on. I'm not agreeing with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I understand it's just.

That's war. Go ahead. Well, isn't a flag of truth, though, different? I mean, like, that's a big deal in war. It wouldn't have been. Had I been in Torabora Bora and Osama bin Laden walked out of a cave, waving a white flag. That had just been a place where we're going to orient our fire. Sometimes it's just what it is.

They talked about the honor of war about that time, and they told the story about Lafayette's dogs. Yeah. And if you remember the Patriot in the movie The Patriot, They use that story with those dogs and kind of the back and forth between. Oh, is that right? That's where that comes from. No, were you in that movie? It was in the movie, wasn't in the dog scene.

But yeah, that's where that comes from. Tell us that story of you being in the movie. Oh, well, that was 25 years ago. I know it was because. What movie? The Patriot. The Patriot. With Mel Gibson.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't like right with Mel Gibson. Are you Mel Gibson? No, he went riding by several times. But, no, it was, the way that happened was they were shooting this in the Carolinas because it was based on Francis Marion. And, I mean, there's a lot of connections.

That's another thing about this podcast that it's so many connections to other parts of history. That was cool. But yeah, that was, they needed reenactors. They could get extras to fill background, you know, for stuff. But they needed reenactors when they started shooting the big battle scenes and stuff that somebody that had pretty close. Yeah. So you had some of that. You were a reenactor?

Yeah. So a buddy of mine was there, and he said, contact some, I don't remember now. It was pre-cell phone, pre-computer, no digital stuff. But I sent him some stuff, and they said, yeah, come on out. So he had to go through a process. And then they had to outfit you in wardrobe. And so I wanted a ponytail, you know, and a cue. And they said, we got a lot of those guys.

So I get a Dutch boy. I don't know what that means. Well, it was just a Dutch boy wig that came. It kind of a goofy. I was blue in my eyes every day, all day. It was terrible. So you were an extra in the war scenes. Yeah, yeah.

So you were like shooting a musket and running around. I was supposed to be a guy stepping out front and they were going to zero in on us and actually shoot because I knew the armor on the set. And every time we started to do that, it rained and that never happened. But the stuff that I worked on, I'm just, you're like furniture kind of, your background, you know. But the scene where he comes back with the play. Can you see yourself in the movie? I'm like those little guys in What's the movie

They say You can see my hand if you look Yeah Yeah If you freeze frame it you can But you're not going to Yeah Yeah

I can show you You were there though Oh yeah yeah And it was What's cool is you get a You get a little bit of sense Certain times A little magic

When a certain kind of time of day And all that stuff is there That you can't You're not visualizing It's right there You know Misty you have to go So it's kind of cool

Miss Newcomb has to go. Thank you. Thank you for coming. Thank you. Thank you for supporting all of us while we said I are tall. Misty actually has a real job. She can't just sit around and podcast for a living. It's being a podcast or even a real job?

No, it's not. But Misty has a real job, so. Thanks, Misty. Good to see you, Missy. Bye. Bye. Okay. Anyway, that's how that happened. It was fun.

All right, let's bring in our next guest. Tim. Go get Tim. Tim. Tim. You think you could get Tim to sit right there? Yeah. I mean, not for very long, but a couple seconds.

Yeah, okay. Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls in building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts. Now, I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use. I'm not going to go, I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen. But when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for. I have a great turkey hunting track record.

if you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contests, right? That's who I listen to. I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps's cut, and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts. Check out Prime Cuts at Phelpsgamecalls.com. I think you'll be glad you did,

and you'll find out that the Steve Ronella cut is an easy-to-use cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good. turkey noises and getting action. Okay, go ahead. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Kyle. No, that's fine. That's what it was, and it was a good time.

I had several buddies that were, that did the same thing. And so there was a core group that was with the film all the time, because they know they're going to be in this stuff, and they can't just have, they can't have a shot that you've got to go reshoot and have a different people. So what they did with us was they would, once they had you photographed and all your stuff, I had a rev war coat that came out of wardrobe.

Everything else was mine. And then the wig and I had a wound. I had a hand doing. So the day we're shooting the scene where he comes back to the Army and cheering and everything, they shoot it a few times. First time we were just, yeah, we're who's on and the horses flare off. So every time after that, what you see in the movie is all Panama, you know. Nobody making any known.

Yeah. Oh, y'all are really? No, we're not saying anything because the horse is close enough to the, to the collar. Really? Yeah. So then they finally get Gibson there. My mules would have been fine. They should have had you do it. Yeah. Had you come back to the army with the mule?

Bill Gibson riding the mule. Absolutely. But they stopped and they picked the section of us that was going to be right in the back of that. And they dusted us up and they fixed us all up. And they came and they were going to put a head wound on. They were going to take my hat, put this head wound on. They had this fake blood. And I thought, I don't want to lose my hat.

It's my hat. You know? So I said, how about a hand wound? so they fix my hand up. The guy next to me, they do a head wound, bloody him all up. He's in every shot. Always take the head wound, didn't you? Head wound is so much more flashy, that.

It's like the guy, the five, you know, the guy with the head, got the head, you know. So you were standing by the guy with the head wound. You see him. I'm right there somewhere. Your acne career would have been so much different. It's just taking the head wound. Just take the head wound. That would have been, but.

Oh, that's pretty cool. fun. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. All right, this is good, Josh. Okay. Last real question is a date question.

What year did Osseol and his family move to Florida? That was mentioned in there. I will give you a hint. It is very close to the start of the Seminole Wars. I have an answer. I'm going to wait to see what Brent says. Okay, Brent, what do you say? I'm going to say 18, 15.

16. 14. 1814 is correct It took a little trip Yeah I should have been able to remember I don't rhyme with Mississippi Okay

I have a I have a couple of questions Okay Man my questions are a little Kind of heavy hitting here But can you tell the short answer so far That we actually listen to it Yeah

Yeah thank you Thanks for listening Brent You're welcome Um Oh There was a there was a I don't even know how to pronounce it We're going to skip that one

What is one of the names of what the Seminoles called Florida? Not the actual Indian name, but what it meant. There were two names. I can get close, I think. Josh, what did they call Florida? Nose of the deer. Nose of the deer? I didn't remember that.

They called it like the, I can't remember. It was like the Kyle Hoyer or something. something. I know it's of the deer. It's close. Brent, do you remember? Something about water.

The pointed land. They called it the sharp and pointed land or the nose of the deer. Okay. I don't know. They knew the shape. That's what it got me. Yeah. Well,

when I said that to Dr. Wickman, I was like, wow, they knew the shape of Florida. And I realized kind of how dumb that is to think that they wouldn't have.

But you wouldn't have thought that they would have a sense of that big of geography. But, yeah, I mean, even on foot, like these people didn't have horses. Yeah. They were on foot and in canoes that much land. Yeah. They, they were all over it. But they know, made that rounded point.

But, yeah, I mean, they didn't see an aerial photo. They couldn't have ever seen. It had to be either from other people talking to them. Right. Yeah. Something, you know. Suscribe. The nose of the deer.

I thought that was pretty cool. It was cool. Yeah. I also thought it was interesting in the, in the, in the, the, the history of Florida section at the very beginning that Dr. Wickman gave, she said that Florida was so critical to America. I wouldn't have known, I wouldn't have thought about why it would have been critical.

I just thought, well, it's just attached, so we need it. But it had so much exposure. So much coastline. And when you think about in history, where did people from Europe usually end up landing?

On the East Coast. Florida. I mean, like, that's where a lot of people, came in, that's where Casa de Vaca, one of the first guys that came inland

in the southeastern United States, they landed in Florida. We were in Ponce de Leon lands. It was Florida, right? Yeah, yeah. Somewhere. And didn't Hernando de Soto and them start in Florida? Yeah.

I thought of it, Markenthal. Yeah. I think of him more in the middle part of the country, but I don't know. You're right. He made up with Mississippi. Yeah. But point being, it's a critical geographic point for the protection of America.

That's where we now have all these military bases and all this different stuff. So that's pretty interesting. I was going to ask you guys the type of polygamy when you marry two sisters. Here we go. She said the word, but I didn't look back. That's why the question has been, I've decided. What was it? Well, it's called S-O-S-O-S-A.

O-R-R-A-L polygamy. Sorial. It was hard. She pronounced it, and I couldn't quite... I thought she was saying serial polygamy. I'm like, how do you do that? That's when you keep having polygamy. There's a bunch of sisters.

Yeah. Yeah, that was interesting. The word for Carol. Okay, now here's one. What was the name of the first Indian graduate of West Point? He was a Muskogee Creek. Oh, shoot. I was going to put that in there.

his name was anybody know David Moniac oh I wouldn't have that I wouldn't that didn't come to me I actually looked them up I felt like that it was cool

that story set for me the time and I mentioned it on the podcast but you kind of get this feeling that like these people had never seen white people oh yeah you know

impression yeah you just think like but then here this guy is a graduate from West Point can you imagine Imagine what it had been for a Native American to go through West Point at that time. Well, it says volumes about that person that did it.

Yeah, absolutely. No kidding. I mean, the internal fortitude that that guy must have had was off the charts. I mean, the average Joe that goes through West Point goes through hellacious hazing and all that kind of stuff, let alone at that time in history for a native to go through there. No HR available. Yeah. And then he's the first guy killed in the battle that he's in.

It was interesting. Yeah, it was good that you reminded the listener, including myself, that these folks been interacting for 300 years before that. Because you did get the impression, it was like, oh, what is that? Yeah. Oh, it's a white guy. Yeah. That was not the case.

They'd been there for a long. One more bonus question. Oh, you got a bonus question. I got a bonus question. The winner takes all. What is the name? 27. Of Clay's aunt and uncle that live in sophisticated Pennsylvania.

Tom and Kate. Don't, you know. Bear? You should know this one. Bear and Karen. Yeah. And Uncle. Ben.

Uncle Tony. Tony. In sophisticated, sophisticated, cultured Pennsylvania. I love Pennsylvania. That's cool, boy. You don't get me in that dispute there because I love. love the folks in Pennsylvania, especially Bradford, Pennsylvania. Oh, Case Nives.

What a coincidence. Yeah, they are made there. Yeah, man. I got a quick story about them. After you made that podcast about going there, I had this old pocket knife from my granddad's case knife, and you mentioned the number series on it. I think I sent you a note on that. I cannot find, I look at, and I can't find a number to correspond with their charts.

So I sent them an email. Somebody called me. Anyway, long story short, they said, If it looks like yours looks, it's pre-1940. Yeah. So I know his knife was pre-1940. Was this your grandfather? Yeah.

And this thing is, it is just, and he didn't do it on a grinder. He'd just sharpened it all the time. They'd go up to the hardware store and loaf. They'd call it loaf. They'd visit the old guys. Whittle, you know, so he'd have to sharpen it every day. Oh, nice. But I skinned a coon with it last year, the sharpest could be.

Oh, that's awesome. So anyway, those are good folks. Oh, they're one. Pennsylvania. No, it was just a cheap shot. I would have taken with anybody. I would have taken it with anybody. Okay.

What stood out, Brent? Like, what stood out to you? What did you learn on this podcast? I learned that, much like Daniel Boone, O'Sioli had two wives. Oh, no. You're always going to forget that, didn't you?

Maybe. Hey, you know what I had forgotten, too? What's that? is that, you know, I was like, Boone wouldn't have cheated on Rebecca. Well, there's lore also that Robert Morgan does not buy that Rebecca Boone had a child with Boone's younger brother, I believe it was Squire or Nathan. I can't remember. No, not Nathan was a son.

That's right. I believe the son. I believe a squire. And so, you know, there was a story of Boone coming back from a two-year hunting trip and his wife is Crale and a newborn. and son. That's lore. But Robert Morgan, the one who wrote the seminal book on Boone said that everybody had that. That was like a common fable during that time.

Because people, there was no communication and men were going on these long trips and it was just a very common fable that when you come home, your wife has a new child. And so he doesn't think it happened. But anyway, carry on. What stood out to me was when you hear the tale of settlers and Native Americans, you immediately think of Wyoming and Arizona, New Mexico, and Idaho. Right.

You never, me personally, never think about Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas, everything where it initially started. Yeah. You always think about West. but it was going on for a long time before we'd ever crossed the Mississippi River. So that stood out to me, and I'm going to kind of inspired me to do a little research of my own because it's tragic, beyond tragic, but very interesting in the history of our nation. That's a good point.

And you know why I think that is, is, you know, I almost put this in the podcast, because I talked about how having war on your own land is different than having war somewhere else. So America's had a lot of wars in other places in the last 100 years, but not here. Right. Do you know when the last battle was fought on American soil, like from a, like an actual military engagement battle? I think I do. What would it be? Was it a state then in Alaska?

Nope. Nope. I don't think so. That's what I was thinking of. Yeah. There was an engagement in Alaska. Lusian Islands. With Russia or something?

Japanese. Japanese troops. Really? Okay. Well, there's probably some caveats. What I learned was the Battle of Wounded Knee in 1890. Oh, is that right? With the Sioux Indians.

Yeah. I've been there. American government versus the Sioux in 1890. I mean, like, that really wasn't that long ago. But, well, okay, think about, you know, Oceola, spoiler alert. he's going to die in 1838 on the next episode. And he's dead. You know, 60 years later, 60 years later,

they're still fighting Native Americans trying to drive him out. So point being, the reason I think we remember the Indian Wars of the West is because they were later when there was photography. Yeah. And there was just much more documentation. Check this out. You said that was in 1890? Yeah.

I was born 70 years later. Really? My granddad was born nine years, eight years after that. So you were, you know, a 70-year-old man or an 80-year-old man when you were born would have been like, oh, yeah, I remember the Battle of Wounded Knee. For real. Could have talk to him. Yeah. Man, when you start thinking about history like that, it really, you realize how short life is.

That's right. Or how short history is. is. I mean, we think like the 1800s is so long ago, man. It was like yesterday. The last Civil War widow just died recently. Yeah. Oh, that's right.

She was real young when she was married. Yeah, but I mean, there's your. She was still receiving a pension. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. No, but that's a good point.

There was a lot of fighting going on over here. Yeah, it was duking it out everywhere. Yeah. Kyle, what's said that to you? Well, the idea of the podcast, or your question you asked a couple of times, is why do they revere Osceola at the time? Why did we still talk about him? And I think that, for me, what comes through there, there's a couple of things. And the deal about the treaty, whether he stabbed it or whether he waved his knife or whatever, he said to the last drop of blood, this is it right here.

Well, when you're that kind of a leader and you have the appearance that he had and they put that kind of effort into their performance, parents and Indians did that. I mean, especially the leader Indians, you know. I mean, they wanted to look like a strutton turkey or whatever in the sun. They wanted that red, you know, well, that to me is why I think one of the things that he was revered at the time, you always revere that kind of leader. And I thought to make it full circle, my wife is from Osceola County, Iowa. Is that right? Her dad fought in World War II. His unit, their crest, regimental crest was to the last man. And there it is.

The warrior hero. Yeah. The warrior hero. You know, it doesn't mean everything about the person was, you know, perfect or whatever. But when you have that kind of charisma and leadership and the ability to lead men or to take on all odds, it's always inspiring to the people, you know. So that's what is it for me. Yeah. What do you guys think about all this stuff?

obviously I find it interesting. The lore versus what people actually think happened. You got in trouble. Well, with the slavery. I want to talk about that. I think she was too hard on you, but go ahead. Well, I want to talk about that for sure. But like, you know, like talking about like, did he stab the treaty or not?

Yeah. Right. I mean, I think there's. there's probably a pretty good chance he did. But there's... How much poetic license, you know. I mean, he was there. Like, we know that.

He had a knife. They said, the guy said, he did have a knife that he waved around. I mean... And, there's a hole in the paper. If you had a magic eight ball. Let's say points. Well, I didn't have a real justification for why there's a hole. I actually went online and looked at the treaty.

You can just type it in. was it Payne's treaty? You can type it in and see this handwritten treaty. It's like nine pages long that some dude just wrote out, just put the date on. I mean, you know, whatever. I guess they're not going to print. They're not going to be like, print the treaty. Yeah.

I mean, so it had to been handwritten, obviously, but, but. You said the dude's famine shit was pretty tough. I mean, it just, like, you couldn't hardly even read it, you know? And it's like, it's like, given, it's like seeding, you know, all these millions of acres. I didn't see a hole in it. I thought I might see like a whole. Yeah, says I can't read this. It doesn't matter.

It's right. Just sign. No, but it's consequential because as somebody who's interested in history, if you read this book right here, which is a good book written by Tom Matt Hatch, this is my first book I read, you would 100% just think that it was just verified that he stabbed the treaty. Right. You would also think that it was 100% black and white. Osceola was anti-slavery

and was making political gestures about slavery to America with his actions. If you read this book, when you read Dr. Wickman's Osceola's legacy, revised edition, that thing is like a hunk of white oak. I mean, this is like dense. Tough plotting.

You know, she kind of parses through all that stuff and it's like, and basically her point about stabbing the treaty is that the guy that the first time anybody ever wrote about stabbing the treaty was 14 years after the treaty was signed. Nobody came out of the meeting and was like, he stabbed. Can you believe that was awesome? 14 years later when they're analyzing it. And you know how they did, those writers back in those days, this was the primary way to communicate with the world. There was no television and internet.

and these guys took a lot of it. They were very poetic, very good writers. Took some liberty with stuff. So that's clue number one, is that 14 years later is the first time that it arises. But then what Dr. Wickman says is that the one eyewitness account of someone that was there,

that it was documented, made no mention of a treaty stab. So you see what I'm saying? Yeah. It's hard to know. But when you talk to Jake, Tiger and Sterling. It's pretty bold for me to say, like, I don't know if that happened.

Well, the witness, you know, he could have had a biased opinion about it. Like, I ain't going to make this guy look out. Oh, Selele, forget that guy. I ain't going to give him any kind of props or anything. He may just omitted it. I'm going to need you to take your knife out of the treaty. Yeah. You got to read that part.

Before I draw a picture of this, I need you to remove the knife. But my point is the cultural significance to them is so real. Sure. Like I actually wonder if Jake and Sterling are upset with me for like bringing it to attention that maybe it didn't happen. Well, which is the very same reason why the eyewitness, was the eyewitness white or was he a Native American? I'm sure it was a white guy. So, I mean, it would be important for him to be looking on the better side of that. Right.

might have one that said, yeah, the knife was sticking in it. I didn't see him do it, but, you know, it's just going to be hard to really pin down. My friend Brent Reeves says the best way to get conflicting stories is to get two eyewitnesses. That's right. Same thing. Yeah, that's right. One got to be saying, well, it was Tuesday. You're like, well, you kidding? It was 13 minutes ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's all different. Well, I hope it also came through that regardless of whether it happened or it didn't, it didn't matter. Right.

Like it branded the Seminoles with, with, with it, with the kind of this identity that they already had. Like, it fit the narrative that was true. Which may have been that writer's license to make the statement if it wasn't true.

Right. And I mean, and whether he did it or not, it's not like, well, Osceola was a coward because he didn't stab it. You see what I'm saying? Right.

It's like, it did, We all know he was brandish in the night. And nobody said put that up. Clap that guy in irons. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah.

The, now this is where I've yet to determine if I'm kind of like in trouble or not. Because, man, talking about this stuff is not. There's risk, cultural risk in today's world about talking about race and different things like this. and uh and facts well but that's just the thing dr wickman was adamant of what she told me and and i didn't play the whole even being fair to dr wickman too we talked about that for probably 30 minutes you guys probably heard six minutes that's what i thought i thought she's a little hard on you she's scolded you a little bit told you no no and then proceeded to tell you how they were acculturated okay i see what you're saying i mean but i think she wanted to make sure the

whole story was there not just some, you know, real sound bite. So you're saying, you're saying, I look out on your side. They were. Eventually, I mean, they were living, they said, you know, when the blacks came in, they, they didn't just readily accept them, but they knew they could produce food. And so they had a deal. And some of them, they talk about. Some of them would fight with them. Well, that's a cultured, right? Isn't that them? A hundred percent of it. Yeah. So I, I think you were right. It's just that you maybe didn't want you to go by it too fast. What she was trying to stamp out, which she did a good job of, which, I mean, according to her, and I trust what she says, was that it wasn't like a political statement about slavery. Right.

Because you go to the Wikipedia page today for Osceola, and it says Osceola was anti-slavery, and that's why people liked him, essentially. And she was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You know that you're going to put something on Wikipedia, right? Right. Yeah, that doesn't mean much. Exactly. I'm going to put a clay nukema in it in there. No.

He was also left-handed. Twirled the knife twice. Yeah, yeah. Well, so yeah, it kind of got to the same place. And I liked her. I don't mean, I'm not saying anything against her. I just thought, wait a minute. It's kind of semantical, really.

Yeah, yeah. But again, to her credit, I think it's easy to take a narrative Amigo Osceola was anti-slavery. They assimilated these formerly enslaved people into their tribes and just made them like Seminoles. And she's like, well, it's not really quite like that, even though that's kind of where it got to.

Yeah. It wasn't like they was like, oh, y'all come on down. Yeah, yeah. It didn't happen like that. You know, like you, and you think about disenfranchised people of that time, these two groups of people were at the bottom

of the tiered system in America. I mean, I don't think the Seminoles were like, they weren't viewing enslaved people as like a group of people that needed to be protected. Do you see what I'm saying? They were fighting for their lives. They had enough stuff to worry about.

Yeah, so it's not like they were like, you know what, we're going to be charitable. Well, again, again, we're looking at these things through our own cultural interpretation. You know, we've talked plenty about how we see things. You just mentioned about centralized government, and Indians didn't even have a concept of that. I mean, we don't know how they viewed slavery. We don't know how they would have viewed these people coming in. In their mind, they might have just been friend or foe.

You know what I mean? It's not about whether we should assimilate or stand up for your rights as a human. I don't know that that was a perspective of the natives of the Seminoles at that time. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, what also wasn't disputed was that they owned slaves. They owned African slaves. So it's documented that the Seminoleys owned African slaves.

I think that's pretty good, pretty good reason. Well, they purchased them. Didn't she say they purchased? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because when they were trying to move the tribe, and this is where I believe. that Dr. Wickman and all these other guys say it too but was when they were trying to move

them to Oklahoma, the United States government was buying their livestock, buying different stuff from them to try to compensate them for because they were going to have to leave all that stuff there and leave, which is just a wild thought. But there were, there was controversy over what to do with their slaves because they were like, well, we're not going to pay you for a slave that escaped from this guy up in Georgia, that enslaved person is going back to that guy. We're not paying you for something that basically was stolen, but they paid for him for somebody.

I don't know. That's wild. It's so wild. It's never just black and white, cut and dry. It's always the Zen diagram of some kind. You know, there's stuff in here and stuff over here and stuff. Which is kind of cool, which is why I appreciate you waiting in there. with these kind of stories because it's the Seminole's history, it's our history,

and it's all American history. We're all Americans. And the more we know how this all went, the better off we are, I think. Yeah. I don't think it's bad at all. Yeah, yeah. You take the arrows, but. Well, and the reason I said I don't know that I'm not in trouble yet is,

and I'm kind of, I don't really think, I don't really mean that. But there are, and this is what I just don't understand. Like, we didn't cover the whole topic. I mean, we talked about it for like eight minutes. Right. So that is not the final definitive story on, you know, African slaves and the Seminoles. But there are people that they called the Black Seminoles in Florida that, I mean, I don't know the whole, the complexity of the whole story, but it's very interesting. What, Bear, what stood out to you?

I told you I was going to. Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I thought was interesting was whenever. you were talking about, and Dr. Wickman was talking about the way that they viewed the land. Yeah. Like the part about the, you know, knows the deer. That was cool. Just because that's just not a way that I could ever, like I can't really imagine being able to think that way, to not have a perfect idea in your mind of right where you're at on a map.

Yeah. But just to kind of have like a general understanding of it. But then also the way that they kind of viewed like land ownership. like, you know, they kind of viewed the land as like something they occupy and more of like a privilege or something to take care of. Yeah. Which is just like so far outside of my realm of thought, just, you know, like when I think a land, I think who owns it, you know, like it's not a, it's not a, there's no question of, you know, it's like every piece of land right now that I could go to, someone owns. Yeah. So that was just kind of like whenever I tried to think about that and actually think about the way that,

they would have thought about land. It was actually like kind of, it was difficult to actually wrap my mind around. It was the way, it was the way, you know, I grew up in southeast Arkansas. I was a big timber company owns

acres and acres and acres that's now leased in sectioned off. When I was a kid, when I was your age, was not, there was no leasing. You just went hunting wherever you wanted to. And that's, I get a glimpse of how they were looking at the world.

Because people had kind of territories. Yeah, but you didn't, but everything was, you couldn't get any, there was no recourse, there was no backlash if you went somewhere because it was open to everybody. Yeah. But it was private land probably on by the timber company.

It's much like going into a WMA right now. You know, some guy climbs a tree right beside you, you can't say nothing about it. Yeah. But it was along what you're talking about there and talking about the cypress tree, being the first thing they described. You remember that part? Yeah. When she was taking those pictures.

down there and they immediately recognized that saffetree. I thought that's where he was going with that. That is so, it was really cool. The picture I got in my head when you're talking about them figuring that out is a couple of Indians on the ground

drawing it out, I guess. The shape of Florida. That's how I figure they maybe got it in their hands or then somebody said the nose of the deer. It was like a deer. Yeah, or whatever. Yeah, but it also made sense like how whenever the Europeans came over,

they kind of had this mindset of the land just as some sort of, you know, they kind of had like a utilitarian mindset on just like, you know, because it wasn't a place that they would have lived and grown up in, like, whereas the Seminoles, they would have lived, grown up there for generation after generation after generation. So it would have kind of been like this land that was, it wasn't theirs, but it was like, you know, it was just like their home. Whereas like the Europeans come in and it's land they've never seen before. and so immediately it's just kind of like the, you know, the utilitarian. Commodity.

Yeah, the mindset of like, you know, dividing it up, who owns it. And it was just a different way to think about it. And really, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, like, if you think about it, you know, we're just, you know, what gives us the right to just, like, claim a piece of land. What's Doug Durence? It's just ours right now. Yeah, yeah, he has a cute little phrase about it's just our turn or something.

Yeah, our turn. Yeah. Yeah, and Leopold said something like that too, but stewardship of it for now or something, you know. But it's kind of, we looked at it as unoccupied. That's the problem. It's wild open country. Yeah.

Yeah. Wow. You know, when you think about, I've said this before, I said it back in the Boone series, but if you, if, it's pretty agreed upon that human civilization started somewhere in the Middle Eastern area. I mean, anthropologists agree with that. The Bible agrees with that. Like, human civilization kind of started like in that part of the world.

The peopling of America, the best understanding that we have today is that humans came into North America from the West, you know, from the Bering Land Bridge and the Kelp Highway. Now they're quite certain that it wasn't actually across the Bering Land Bridge, but came down the kelp Highway via water down the. down the western coast and came into Washington and the Alaskan Lucian Islands or the Alexander Archipelago Islands. Point being, Native Americans came from, if humans kind of like started in the Middle East, some people went into Asia, some people went into Europe. and thousands and thousands and thousands of years later, they went opposite ways on the globe. And then they met again for the first time.

In Florida. I mean, yeah? Tallahassee. I mean, so these humans that were the same species that have been separated for time that we can't really understand. Right. But they were both humans. and they had these different ideas of what it meant to be human. And that would be a great example.

Land. Like somehow the Europeans, you know, probably because of civilization or because of just technology and there was more agriculture. They were building cities. They were. You think they were like higher population densities? Yeah, yeah. For sure.

Higher population densities. And then and so they were like, hey, we got to figure out. who owns this land. We're going to draw lines on a map. We're going to make a map. We're going to have lines and people are going to be able to buy, you know, they formulated this complex system of land ownership and this ideology about land and how humans interacted with it. And then, you know, these people that were here in North America, you know, especially early on, it would have been this vast, unpeopled continent. And they developed doctrines and ways they thought about anyway. And then all of a sudden they collided, you know.

It's interesting. That's very simplified, but it's interesting. Get out of my yard like, they don't eat your yard. What's our yard? Yeah. It's nobody's yard. Josh, we'll end with... I thought that was really interesting, but one of the things that I always appreciate is getting

to hear straight from Seminals. You know what I mean? When we have a topic to speak to someone who's indigenous and, you know, I appreciated what Jake Tiger had to share about, about Osceola not being a chief. I think that's a common, common thing that we think about that if they're a leader, they're a chief.

What did you think about by Joe Rogan analogy? I thought it was effective. I thought it was a good, good analogy. But, you know, just thinking about, about who Osceola was to be able to draw in and to fill people with, with vision of what,

what they're going to do, that's what made him a leader, not because he had a title or a birthright, but really because of who he was and his ability to fight and his ability to draw people in. I thought that was really interesting what Jake Tiger had to share about that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're trying to get Sterling Hard Joe to come on the next render that we do. So Sterling, he's a busy guy and he's got a lot going on in his life, but he's probably going to be here with us, which would be really cool. I would have had all those guys on every render if they could have come. Oh, yeah.

You know, it's just hard to get people here. But the next episode, I'm really excited about it because it's just, if you think this is interesting, I think this next one is even going to be more interesting in a way. Osseo is going to die. Oh. And he dies. in an American prison in South Carolina and

the whole podcast is about his death and about Dr. Patricia Wickman who spent a good portion of her career searching for Osceola's head. Bum bum bum.

I mean like it's pretty fascinating. Pretty fascinating. Fired up. I'm listening. I just can't wait. Absolutely. It's going to be a good one.

Yeah. Yeah. It's been good so far. Well, thanks, guys. Anything else, Josh, that we're supposed to talk about? I don't think so. Just be on the lookout for that Bear Grease Hall of Fame. Oh, Bear Greas Hall of Fame.

It's going to be so good. Yep. I'm going to Kansas, like, right now. Two. Like, when y'all, I mean, I probably won't even say bye to y'all. You're going to climb out the window? Yeah, I'm probably going to climb out the window. So we're recording this on October 30th.

Tomorrow is Halloween, and there's a big front coming tonight. And I'm going to Kansas bohunting. I got a Kansas boy, that reminds me, I better bring my dead gum Kansas tag. I was going to run off and leave that. Daniel Boone had two wives. Keep the wild places wild because that's where the bears live. and Boone only had one wife. Devil.

He quartered her at the cherry tree when they were 14, man. Come on. He would have never cheated on her. Whatever. Cut that off. First Lights fieldwear collection is made for the work that happens long before opening day and continues when the season ends. Products built for early mornings, full days in real use.

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