Bear Grease - Ep. 272: Render - Shoes vs. Boots, Moose Paddle, and Bear's Deer Camp

Episode Date: November 20, 2024

On this Bear Grease Render, Newcombs have the majority -- Clay, Misty, Gary, and Bear, as Josh "Landbridge" Spielmaker and special guest and friend Ben Lagrone round out the panel. Render Trivia turns into an in-depth conversation about the captivity and death of Osceola. Bear talks about his friends and family annual deer camp and the subsequent retrieval of the bear that was harvested, Misty points out Bear's new shiny shoes, and Clay shares about his special gift from Steve Rinella. If you have comments on the show, send us a note to [e-mail] Connect with Clay and MeatEater Clay on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, and Youtube Clips MeatEater Podcast Network on YouTube Shop Bear Grease MerchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. First Lights fieldware collection is made for the work that happens long before opening day and continues when the season ends. Products built for early mornings, full days in real use. Hard wearing where they need to be versatile where it matters. No shortcuts. Just gear designed for the work that earns the season.

Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new field. Worldware Gear at firstlight.com. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called the Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast. Presented by FHF Gear, American made, purpose-built, hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. I want to poll the group here about something. Should I tell the world that I'm writing a book

if it's a year to a year and a half out from being published? 100% yes. Yes, Josh? I can't think of a good reason why you wouldn't. Ben? Whatever the publisher say. Okay. Publish a bear, what do you think?

I would say go for it. Might as well kind of bring it. Gary? Yeah. Tell him. Yeah, I don't think it's better. Guess what? Your very own Clay Nookam is deep in the heart of process for writing a book.

What made me think of it was on the screen right there was like, you know, writing. And I was actually with Janus Putelles the other day, and he was just like, Clay, you got to tell the world. Because I've kind of not told the world, even though it is public knowledge. Because when you get a book contract with a publisher, what the publisher is. does is they send out a memo to the writing world, like the underworld that like normal people. The seedy underbelly of authors. Yeah, exactly. For real. So it wouldn't be something that just like I would be attuned to, but it's something that writers and publishers would see. And you do it to stake claim on some topic. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah. So the book, like, hey, I'm writing a cookbook.

The book, you know, at this time is titled American Bear. Oh. And that's known. That was known a year ago. And, but I haven't talked about it because in my mind, it's like, am I going to start telling about the research and what I'm doing? And Yonis Pettel us was like, Clay, if every single podcast you talked about really what you were learning for the next year, you would not even touch the surface of what's in the book.

and you would build people's excitement towards it. And so here we go. I'm writing a book. And I'm very excited about it. And really the book is about the American Black Bear and its trajectory in American history, which is an incredible arc that I've never really, I don't think anybody's ever put all the pieces together.

And it's going back all the way. to deep indigenous world views on bear and the first contact with bears that we have documented all the way into the market hunting of black bears, which is incredible with guys like Boone and Crockett and Gerstocker and Native Americans

who were massively involved in the market hunting of black bears coming all the way up to the modern times of the black bear thriving. Whatever is happening, ecologically on planet Earth today has been beneficial to the American black bear. There are eight species of bears

on planet Earth, and every one of them has some level of imperiled status. And the black bear, there are more American black bears, Earth's Americanaus. There are twice as many

as all the bear species of planets Earth combined. So if there are, you know, 25,000 polar bears and and 200,000 brown bears and, you know, all the other, there are eight species, one in South America, multiple in Europe. If you combine all of them,

there are twice as many black bears. And so in a time, and this is why you're going to buy the book, Dad, is in a time, you're going to buy, you're going to buy them for Christmas for bear, Ben, and Josh. When, in a time when,

all the media about planet earth is ecological doom, which, I mean, it's kind of true. I mean, with the expansion of civilization and they're being, you know, approaching eight billion people on planet Earth and the needs of all these people. There's all this like ecological doom. But something crazy has happened with the American black bear, and they're springing up in places they hadn't been in 150 years, and every researched population of bears is increasing or stable. and it's a fascinating story about America's bear, which is endemic to North America.

Well, I just thought it was amazing when you said there's eight species of bears. Like, of all the big game animals, of all the cats and everything, I don't know that there's any that have just that limited number of species in that category. Okay.

Again, I hope Janus is right about me talking about this because I can talk about it for forever. We'll quickly get to Osceola. This episode is about Osceola. But in the fossil record, there have been hundreds, hundreds of bears that have come and gone, that were gone, that we would have never even encountered.

I mean, like, the fossil record is full of bears. And if you were looking at time in like a, like, like geologic time, as opposed to time that really humans can comprehend and understand, bears are like on the decline. just there used to be a hundred species now there's eight and it in and that that's not fodder for like not managing them and hunting them it's actually more fodder for like we need we need we need we need to help them as much as we can and it for black bear that means you know regulated hunting in places but anyway it's just fascinating so mark your calendars one and a half years from today I mean and I'm a year into this I'm a year into it

it, but we're really turning up the dial. So, yeah. Save your pennies and nickels so you can buy. Save your pennies and nickels. It's going to be great. I'm going to wait for the audio book. It's going to be great. I'm going to read the audio book.

Sweet. I'm in. Yeah, yeah, it's going to be good. Dad, great to have you. Been a while since you've been up here. Good to see you. Yeah, yeah. It's good to be here.

I mean, I was, I felt like I had been five. It felt so good, really. I mean, you know, I'm retired. I'm free. You can't really lay a glove on me. The good thing about the renders, if you get fired, you'd never know. Yeah. Just kind of like, don't show back up.

No, man, we just, we just invite. Hey, don't worry about me. Just use me, just call me when you need me. Oh, what a good dad. We need you. We need you for Osceola. this is to me one of the most like when I rank in my mind the work done for a bear grease documentary style podcast it's not so much about like which one is my favorite or which

one but but I really kind of have a mechanism for just ranking the quality of them and it has to do with the guests it has to do with the story it has to do with intangible things that happen inside to interviews. It has to do with a lot of times just the cultural touch points that the story touches that we kind of go into. And then it goes back to really how well, like if someone listened to these three episodes and knew nothing of Osceola, like what would they learn? Would they really learn?

Because there's sometimes with historic characters that I feel like we kind of just did like an okay job. Maybe it was entertaining and fun. But, man, I felt like this one was like top shelf. And it was because of Dr. Patricia Whitman. Yeah, for sure. She was good, really good. Oh, I talked to her for four hours.

You know, and we're going to end up here in probably two total hours of what she said. And, I mean, just unbelievable. I said it over and over, but she has an unbelievable passion, ability to retain knowledge, and just a life, a career, like a 40-year span. She wrote this book right here when she was in college in the 1970s. No way. This was her thesis.

I did not realize that. Her thesis, yeah. It's like there was so much. Yeah, her dissertation was on Osceola. And so she wrote this book, and it was, it's like just stacked. I mean, it's like reading a medical manuscript, you know, just stacked with information. And then,

As if that wasn't good enough, she came back and wrote the revised edition, which she was adamant. Which looks quite a bit thicker. Oh, it's like she's added quite a bit to it. It's like a lot thicker. And when I went to see her dad, she was adamant that I read this one and not this one. Really? Because I had read this one. And she was like, oh, no, no, no, no.

Don't you come to Florida without read the revised edition? Honey. Honey? You can almost hear you saying that. Oh, like she did. And it was like two days before I was supposed to go to Florida. So I don't tell her. I read most of it.

Well, that much. I thought it was funny in the interview you said, I read this today. And I thought, oh, man, you almost got yourself in trouble there. I was cramming. I was cramming. Because she was so sweet, though. I appreciated her directness at times just going like,

no, you don't understand. You know what made her to me so effective, and it's sort of a lesson in life. And you can't create it. I mean, it's got to be natural. But her little giggle, her little, I mean, it just took a Ph.D. Full of knowledge and put her kind of in the coffee shop, you know. Yeah. And it was just beautiful, really.

Yeah. And without the smiles and the giggles, you know, it would have been good, but not great like it ended up, I'd say. for sure. And her reprimands. I appreciated all the reprimands she gave claim. Her smiles, giggles, and reprimand. Yeah, she was like, put your coffee cup on the coaster. Yeah.

You know, she was very serious about that. I liked when she, when he mentioned about the slaves assimilating. And she was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I left some of that stuff in very much on

purpose. And I hope it doesn't embarrass her because I was actually doing it because I thought it was so cool and endearing. And it really showed who she was, you know. And then just I didn't know a lot about her. And the more I talked to her, the more I saw just, you know, I think I used in the podcast the term she was a real gangster. I mean, meaning she was just like legit. Like, she lived with the Seminoles. She, you know, when I brought up that Osceola had been taken to a broad, like a play in Charleston while he was in prison. Don't divulge too much of that.

We've got some good trivia this week. Oh, oh, oh. Well, she was like, you know what? He did. And I went to the New York Museum and copied the entire play, went back to Charleston, invited the Seminoles up, and we did a reading in the theater for them. The Flores sent carnations.

I mean, it was just like, wow, this woman's been there, you know. And I'm kind of just going on and on. But I like it with a story, I think that's what makes a good story too, is that the story, this was about Osceola, but it was kind of fun to get a little window into Dr. Wickman. So it was exciting. Yeah. So that was the first introduction.

Newcomb's here. Good to see a bear. Nice shoes. Thank you. I mean, I don't, I don't really approve of them. Like, why not? Well, I mean, you don't know my doctrine. They look really good. They look up in front of the screen so people can see that.

They look really good, really stylish. But as you know, I think a grown man ought to be wearing leather, leather boots of some kind, like 80% of his life. I'm sorry, it's not right, but it's not wrong. and my dad would have disagreed with me. Dad always thought I was kind of a dress like a hillbilly. Some of us are trying to look nice. Some of us are putting in some effort.

No, you look great, but I just don't want to, you know, I don't want to make you feel too great. It does break the cardinal rule that we've had in our family that no one is allowed to have white things here. Yeah, yeah, good. Good luck with that, buddy. On our dirt road, but they look good. He's becoming his own man. He is.

I love it. I love it. Yep, needs a haircut. Yeah, I'm proud of you, Bear. Ben LaGrone, good to have you back. Ben's been on here many times. Former history teacher doing all kind of stuff. I'm interested to hear your take on Osceola.

Did you know much about Osceola? Well, that has to do with being a history teacher. When you're a history teacher, you've got to know a little bit of a lot of things. Yeah. And that's why I enjoy listening to her because you always get a deeper approach. appreciation that every story has so many layers of complexity and I enjoy this to her. Yeah, cool. I also wear,

yeah, I just want to point out before we get due serious. I am a sneakers man, beer. Those are nice. Skinny guy's got to stick together and be, you know, Clay always says,

you just got, you just got moved out of a category. Are all the heavyweight people over here? I'll be honest, I can't wear big heavy boots all day. Like, I am so small. You're not strong enough.

I'm not strong enough. But here's what I do have is that I can always run really fast in these shoes. And I am a fast guy. That's until I take my boots off and then I'm like, Woo! It's true. Because, you know, it's like wearing weighted ankle weights, you know, and then when you take them off, you can run like that.

That's right. That's right. Ah, the conditioning. Good point. Well, no, that's good point. Maybe you'd be stronger if you want. And your shoes are bare grease color. I've noticed that for a long time.

They just picked up on that too. Yeah, yeah. Josh, good to see you. Thanks. Dr. Misty Newcomb, great to see you. Good to be here. Today is Misty and I's anniversary. How many years?

24 years. 24 years. We were married in the year of 2000. How would you say that in a more dramatic way? In the year of our Lord, 2000. Well, it would be like 20 odd or something. No, Misty and I have been, we got married in the kind of the, the prime of your life.

The prime of our lives, but the latter end of the white tail rut, which I remember I told Jeff Cunningham, who was one of my best friends' dads at the time, I told him that I was getting married on November 18th, and he was like, Clay, you're going to regret that. You should have.

He's like, I'm going to have to come in from Deer Camp to come to your wedding. Jeff Cunningham said that. And he did. And you have regretted. No, I haven't. You've not regretted getting married, but that the timing, we never celebrate our anniversary. On the day.

Or anywhere near it. We actually bump it up six months earlier or six months later, depending on how you... Well, hey, you know what? You could get divorced and redo it like in midsummer. Josh. That just is a slap in the face to what I was just about to say. Oh, never mind. Never mind.

I take it all about. Gary Newcomb taught me from the time I was two. I mean, like before I could say dad-da, he said, don't ever say the word divorce in this house. Did you not? I sure did. I mean, that's a little exaggerate. We don't use that word. We don't even say it, Josh.

Sorry, I said it. Wow. I take it all back. No, no. I was going to say, we, we, we, I really do. I mean, it's, it's a big deal to be married to somebody committed for decades. It's a big deal. So congratulations.

Way to go. Yeah. Something we honor. It is. I'm not right? For sure. Absolutely. Yep.

Yep. It's great. Speaking of, did y'all get the same ads that I got in the Bear Grease in this podcast? Where Clay said what he was thankful for? Yeah. I actually didn't know where it was going because he started off saying this is basically an ad for better help. And then he said, I'm thankful for Misty. I was like, shoot. She's my therapist.

Or she caused me to have therapy. That's where I was going. I'm thankful for Misty, but I have to talk about it a lot. Can we talk about the CD underbelly of podcast ads? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they send you these ads that you read, but then they say that they'll tell you things to, like, talk about. Right. Like they'll say, tell someone that.

And sometimes the connection's not always there for me. It's like a cold open. Like, tell about someone. your life, a relationship in your life that you're thankful for. And so it's like, okay. So I talked about Misty. And then it's like, if you want someone in your life to help you, you know, call betterhelp.com. Yeah, then you said, I'm thankful for myself. Oh, yeah. They, they, they, they, that, that, that was, part. Part of their deal, like this month was that, this idea that, you know, like, it's okay to, like, take care of yourself. It's like the month of gratitude, right?

Gratitude and self-care or something like that. Yeah, I'm not into that word self-care. It's a little self-aggrandizing. I don't know, like... A little selfie. Selfie, yeah, it's just kind of like trendy in the age to be like, you've got to take care of yourself. I mean, you do, but we don't have to talk about it.

But thanks better help for advertising. Actually, I think it's a great service. I mean, I really do. My brothers are both. therapist or in the therapist adjacent world. And I think it's actually, I think it's actually a really good service that you could call somebody

and have kind of an unbiased opinion. Yep. So use clay at your chriott. Yeah, way to say that. They didn't, that was unscripted. Yeah, yeah, there you go. On blood trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over.

They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I've instantly thought. was a sleeping bag and there was a full of blood. Oh my God, he doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors, where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence.

Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper, from cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something.

I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, Iheart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. I got a funny story. You see this Moose Antler right here? There's a Moose Antler behind me. So I hunted the last couple of years with Steve Ronella in Alaska for moose. Actually, the day that we're recording this, so when it comes out, it'll be out.

There's the video on the Meteor YouTube channel of the Rough Cuts called Steve Rinella Rough Cuts of us, Moose hunting in Alaska two years ago. And when the plane flew over to come get us, or when he left, the pilot saw a moose paddle, and he would later try to describe to us when he came back, kind of where it was. He was like, it's like out there,

but it was like a quarter mile from the camp, and we went looking for it, couldn't find it. Long story short, when Steve went back to Alaska this year without me, they found the moose handler that was by camp. And he sent it to me, which I thought was really nice.

Yeah, he shipped it in like a giant box and sent me that moose out. How nice. Okay. They had killed a moose. and Brody Henderson and killed a moose. And so that antler had a big splotch of blood on it. And they didn't clean it when they sent it.

They just put it in a box and sent it. When it came to my house, we took it out of the box and put it on the fireplace. This is a complicated story. Okay, just hang with me. It's worth it. I think it's easier than you think. I think we're all trying to. The moose antler is on our wood stove.

Right. above the wood stove is the moose that I killed the year before, which is giant. Right. Hanging on the wall as a euro mount. Many times in our family, we've talked about what if that moose fell off the wall? And if you were sitting underneath that moose and it fell like seven feet and came down on you, it would likely... Kill you. It could kill you.

My daughter, River Newcomb, walks into our house. She walks out of her bedroom, which is upstairs. Okay, she walks out of her bedroom and looks down into our living room. And Clay and I are usually sitting in the living room every morning when she wakes up to go to work. We're having coffee. So that's what she was expecting to see was us sitting there. And she sees a moose antler laying underneath the big moose with blood on it. Oh, no.

And no one's home. She said that for like a very few real seconds, she was certain that one of those antlers had fallen off and killed. someone in our house. When you tell it, it made perfect sense. There was this huge blood. I mean, like, why would there be blood on this big moose antler? We don't have two moose antlers. Anyway, so River had a little traumatic moment.

And then she was like, looked at the moose on the wall. And she's like, well, it's still there. And there's that one. Anyway, it was funny. That is beautiful. That looks like a piece of canvas. If you could ever. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, that'd be cool. Find something to put on it. Man, that would really be something. It's something by itself. I could paint you something on there. Man, I think a moose antler is like one of the most spectacular. I mean, it's one of the most spectacular antlers, but they're just fascinating. Yeah, it's great.

They're just so big, you know. This little guy, I mean, he's beautiful. Yeah. Man, we've got, I just got so many stories to tell. I got to tell one just real quick about River. This is kind of a monologue today. I've been in the deer stand a lot. I've been.

Thank you for coming to many people. Thank you for coming. So Bear, we don't have to go into all the details just yet, but Bear had his annual deer camp. Right. Okay. And this story's going to quickly get back to River. Yeah, they had like 20 people at Bear's deer camp.

There were 30 total that like came. Are you serious? They were like almost always 20 at once. Like people would come and go. From all over the country. From all over the world. And from other countries, yeah. We had like three countries represented there.

Yeah. And most of these guys are new hunters. Some of them were veteran hunters. Yep. Mo Shepard showed up. Yep. I was there for a short time. Yeah.

Cook some meat for y'all. The young guys come. A lot of the younger young men around here like 11, 12, 13 years old come with their parents. Pretty cool. So you're going to be surprised at what part of this story that I'm interested in. They deer hunt and don't kill any deer, but they kill a bear. Our friend Levi Mashburn shoots a bear It was really incredible

Levi's been a killing machine this year Yeah he's had a great season We should have had him on the podcast Yeah he's put a lot of work in I mean the last couple years he hasn't He's hunted hard in the last two years Yeah And he hasn't had much luck

And he kills a bear And you might think that's what I would be interested in But it's actually not Sorry Levi What No Levi knows I'm really proud of him Very proud of him He did a just phenomenal job

River Newcomb went to bring food. Her and her friends cooked dinner for all the deer hunters. It actually went out in the mountains. And when they got there, Levi had killed a bear. And they were all going to go way back and it was a long hike. It was a tough pack out.

I mean, it wasn't like a, they were in the big mountains, man. And they went back there. And River wasn't planning to stay. She was planning to drop from off and grow. Yeah, River just like had just normal clothes on and had crocs, I think. I think she had ugs.

Ugs. That's why. Yeah. Ugs. Like slip on Ugs. Yeah. And Dad, they're going on this like significant hike. It was 0.66 miles from the road, but steep.

Really steep. Six miles? 0.6. Yeah, yeah. Oh, 0.0.6. In the world. So people out west, that doesn't sound impressive. No.

But it was a 45-minute hike in there probably. Yeah, just real steep. River takes off her. shoes and walks in there barefoot. You gotta be kidding. At night, in the woods. Like a Sasquatch. And the worst part about it was

it wasn't only steep, but it was thick. I mean, there was just brush and thorns. River, since River didn't wear shoes. She's feral. She's feral. She didn't wear shoes until she was like nine when we made her. Well, when she would go to school, I would walk in and I would just see River's shoes in the hallway

at school. And I would be like, why doesn't River have shoes on? And teachers would say, we've been telling her to get them on, she just takes them off in every class. And she could never find her shoes at school. People, indigenous people and people across the world that don't wear shoes, shoes tighten your feet up and make your toes stick together like this, like all of normal people's feet.

But if you don't wear shoes, your toes spread out. Like you could, you know, like poke the ground in between your toes. River has toes like you. Really? They've come together a little bit. In her older age, you know, when she has jobs. The other day, like in the last year, we were joking about when she was a little girl,

she didn't wear shoes. And I said, could you still run across the gravel? I mean, if I go out on the gravel, I mean, I'm like, yeah. And she was like, oh, yeah. She was like, oh, yeah, I could do it. And I was like, oh, no, you couldn't. Show me. She takes her shoes off and just sprints down the driveway.

Just full sprint. So, beast. Anyway. Congratulations, Levi. She kind of looks like a Native American, too. You ever notice that? She's got that dark hair. Well, you know, everybody in Arkansas believes that they're part Native American.

I don't know if that's a thing everywhere. One day we're going to do a Bear Grays podcast on it because there's actually a legitimate cultural thing about, and I don't quite have my fingers on it. But everybody, you can hardly talk to a person down here that doesn't claim to have Native American heritage. and I think most of the time it's not true. I mean, there's stories in our family of it. I mean, my whole life grew up hearing that, that my, well, my grandmother, Nanalee Millsap,

grew up in Oklahoma, which is, you know, Indian territory. Yeah. And that her grandmother was full-blood Cherokee. I mean, that's what I grew up hearing. Yeah. And, but now they have like, as I, I've gone back to try to, like, okay, is that really true? It's like, nobody can really prove it.

I talked to people nonstop. That last week I talked to a guy, and he was like, yep, my great-great-grandmother was this or that. And it's like, 23 and me. Interesting. 23 and me, we're in check. Can they tell for that? That doesn't work. Guess who's not putting their blood in that sample to be compared to?

Oh. You see what I'm saying? You need the sample. Because, I mean, just like we see with Osceola and we learn from Sterling Hard Joe, it's not exactly like the Native American people in this country have a lot of reason to trust the system. Yeah, understandably so. I mean, for real. Yeah. You know, no, that's a big topic.

I'm not ready to fully discuss it, but interesting. Interesting. So sorry, Levi, that your story was second and a one. only to River going in barefoot. I wish River was here in that whole tennis shoe boot debate because she would have brought a whole other level. She would have a whole other level. She would have sex. Yeah, no doubt.

To shoes. No doubt. I think we should probably start with trivia. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Did you know we were going to have trivia? I didn't. Oh, man.

I wish I would have studied the teachers about to get schooled. Look what we got here at this time. Oh, thanks. Oh, we've got whiteboards. I will play, but I won't count. Okay, sounds good. I think we'll see if you can stump me. Okay.

There we go. All right. Dad, do you feel like you academically listen to this podcast? I mean, I know just about everything. You know, I do appreciate that about you. When you listen, I can really tell you listen. Oh, I'm not too sure how much I retained. Okay.

What about you? How do you feel like you're going to? I would say decent. I listened to this and the ox cord of my truck just disappeared. So I had to listen to it on my phone while driving. Has yet been in your car? Really? Probably.

Because my oxford also dissipated. Okay. Are you guys ready for this? How many questions do we have? We have eight and a bonus, I think. Okay. Okay. And keep your score on the bottom of your board.

So how to give us the rule. How are we doing it? So everybody, I'm going to give you a question. Oh, we just write it down. And you'll write down the answer. Just like media trivia. Right. If you get a point, mark it down at the bottom of your board.

Okay. Okay. I'm going to put on my old manglasses here so I can see what I'm doing. Okay. Question number one. What is the name of the stockade where Osceola was originally held? Oh, wow. Ooh.

I thought we'd have A, B, C, or B. No, multiple choice, Gary. This is not the ACT. Anybody remember? It's not fun if the question's so hard, no one can answer. It's not hard. It was said at least three times. Yeah, I know you're right.

Because they took them, this is not giving anybody hint, because I actually don't remember. But when they captured him under a flag of truce, they took him to a town near St. Augustine. I will tell you, it starts with Fort. Yeah, yeah. And he was there for a while, and that's where the Indians escaped. Yep.

Potentially by... Gotcha. Kill it. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. Does anybody have an answer?

I have an answer. Okay. And a drawing. All right. Let's see your answers. Clay, what do you got? Fort Payne. Fort Payne.

Misty has Fort Charles Theatre Group. Charleston Theater Group. Ben. Blank. Bear. Fort Myers. That's a good guess, Bear. That's a good guess.

Gary, you got a guess. Clay is the closest. It's actually Fort Payton. Oh. Surprising. Fort Payton. Shucks. Okay.

Fort Payton. No right answers on that one. Okay. Question number two. And this one was mentioned several times, too, and I think everybody should pick up on this one. What was the name of the post-surgeon and local doctor that befriended Osceola and later took his head post-mortem? That will be living in your head ramp free. someone's head, it's always going to be post-mortem, right?

I've literally been thinking about the story all morning, and I can't recall his name. Oh. Way to Seamus at the beginning, Josh. You're all going to get this one. Well, I didn't want us to have this big discussion and answer all the questions in the discussion. Okay.

Everybody got an answer? Misty? You don't remember. All right, Clay. Dr. Frederick Wheat and Misty. Dr. Kiljoy. What do you got? Nothing, Bear?

Oh. Wheatley. Wheatley? Wheatley? Weiden. Weedon. I should have had Gary show up before I said it because did you remember that? Oh, yeah.

Okay. I'm really, I love you all. Everyone's here because I love you. I'm really disappointed. We don't know while I'm a former history. Hold on. There's a bonus question to this one. What was his wife's name?

Oh. That's a bonus question. Bonus. Uh-huh. There's no, there's no, he won't be disappointed. pointed with you if you don't know. I won't. Yeah, that's a tough one.

All right, let's see your answers. Misty, Jolene. I'm going to say Judith. Okay, Judith, question mark, Edith. Not Patricia. Her name was Mary. Mary, Mary. Classic.

Mary weed, Mary. So there was some, there was so much that you just couldn't tell in the story, but Mary Weeden was kin to the guy that Osceola assassinated. Oh, really? The Wiley? The Wiley Thompson.

Yep. Mary Whedon was kin to Wiley Thompson, and there was a conspiracy theory that the reason Whedon cut his head off was retribution to Mary's family. I think it's totally unfounded. Me and Dr. Wickman discussed it. Okay. Next question.

According to the story told by the Seminoles, the imprisoned Indians made medicine that turned them into what so they could escape through the prison walls. All right. I'm refusing to answer this question. Everybody got an answer? Misty, ants. Mice.

Bens, Ben, did you even listen? I was doing a lot of yard work, a lot of hard yard work. Okay. The correct answer is ants. The correct answer is not ants. What? They didn't turn into ants. It was water that came up.

You didn't listen. They saw the ants. Yeah, yeah. That's the reason that I refused to answer because they didn't turn into anything. They didn't turn into ants. That was misleading. It's the way you described it, though. I actually had to listen to it twice.

Okay. I listened to the podcast twice and I didn't catch it. Well, yeah, if you really listen, they didn't turn into ants. They became as small as ants. Oh, that's, that makes sense. Like, honey, I shrink the kids. Yeah. Okay.

Got it. Dang. I wonder if there's some copyright infringement there. Maybe. Okay. Well, that one doesn't count, apparently. All right. Can we use this as a springboard to talk about a few things?

Sure. I don't think will be a question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually really, I said it. I think, I hope it came across that. Like, I really like these stories of, like, supernatural activity. What did you think about my commentary? about supernatural stuff.

You remember I said basically that a lot of times you hear these stories and you're just like, oh, that's like just completely discounted folklore. And the reason I brought up the biblical prison break is because sometimes I think, I mean like in the cultural lexicon of a lot of people who would consider themselves Christians, like if you hear this story about someone turning to the size of an aunt, you're kind of just like chuckle.

But I mean, like in the, in our stories, we got some wild stories too. Yeah. You know, and, and so anyway, I'm not saying that I believe that that happened, but basically, supernatural being things that would break the laws of physics that we know to be true. And, but the way that it is, the way that, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, seen as the spirit world would work is that your your belief in it would be the catalyst to like seeing it you know and and and basically the idea that that the the way that you think right now bear bear shoot those pretty shoes on no no the way that we think is not the way that most people

that ever lived on planet earth thought i mean like we are a product of a long time like the enlightenment and all this science and all this stuff, which is true. Like, I'm not saying that science isn't true. But I wish I could have kept it on there. But Patricia Wickman was actually, at one point, she was talking about Indian medicine, which was just like their, essentially their access to the spirit realm, which, again, I'm not saying I'm like, I'm not saying anything about that. But she said, as smart as she is, she said, for me to think that I understand all the mechanisms of how this universe operates is absurd. And that's kind of what I said.

Yeah. I think there's a lot of wisdom in that statement you just said. And I find it interesting right now. Like you could go watch a million documentaries on paranormal activity, UFOs, and all this stuff. that it's your skeptical brain, your Western educated skeptic brain wants to just poke holes in the whole thing. But when you think about just like the accumulating mass

of eyewitness accounts or some of these documentaries prove, you at least walk away, you're like, you know what? I don't really know what happened. So it would be very arrogant of me to say, oh, they're all just crazy and it's all of this massive conspiracy. And so that's my feedback on your statement there in the podcast. of like you pointed out, who are we to say over here, this is false, and I know that for sure,

and this over here that validates my beliefs is true. What is easy to me to assess me, look at the big picture of human history, is that there's obviously some way more complex things going on than we can assess by our own personal experience, because that's where humans get so messed up as they think, well, I've never seen that. So it's not true. it's like wow you've been on this planet for this much and you can make an assessment on all of the entire universe that's pretty bold yeah i liked what you said about how like a lot of times the super like if we would have had like you know people would have had no understanding of like science and the laws of physics like whenever they'd like pray for a rainstorm and a rainstorm would come like there was still science behind that like i forgot exactly how you worded it but like a lot of times like the natural functions of the earth can be, you know, like are... The supernatural can play out even in the midst of the...

In the context of the natural laws of physics. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because in kind of the point of that, well, finish your thought there. Well, yeah, and I mean, it's like even like a lot of the, like, stories in the Bible, like sometimes they'll, like, uncover things. Like, the one example I could think of was, like, in Sodom and Gomorra, you know, like, they uncovered, like, that city that had, like, the... Pillar salt.

Sulfur content. I think like meteorites. Yeah. Yeah. Or something. And it was like, if you'd have had no understanding of what a meteorite was,

you would have said, yeah, balls of fire are flying from the sky and destroying the city. Yeah. But it's like there was actually like a natural thing behind it. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's good.

Yeah. I think that, I think it's a real discount to humanity to not believe in the supernatural. And I think that that's probably why some of the imbalances that we're seeing on, on planet Earth. exist because we actually are we are supernatural beings and we should have sight for those things

and we're kind of denying this thing that makes us fundamentally different and I think you can say that and also be like a massive believer and proponent of science both of those things can fit into the same the same fat and what I was saying about that belief in

and when I say supernatural I'm not even talking about like turning yourself into the size of an ant, something that dramatic. Like that's, but, but you live a self-fulfilling prophecy. And so the question is, what is reality? So if I walk around and believe that the, that there is a spirit realm that's as real as the natural realm. And through my faith in God, I have access to that at some level, like at some level

for my life, which, you know, I could give examples of things that have happened to me. that that that that bias that I have to believe that because for whatever reason makes it actually real to me and if you don't like if if you're cut off to that then then you have full right to be like no supernatural's not real I mean because it's not to you right I mean it's like and you won't see it and you you won't see it yeah you're going to go through your whole life and never see it I mean that's the that's the triggering power of faith that we see in a Bible. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Yeah, it is. I mean, like, and that's where the spirit realm is accessed differently than the natural realm. And anyway, I think that's massively interesting and massively relevant. I mean, it's just like in our society today, we're enamored with the things we can touch, taste, see, smell, rationally think. And man, when I look back and of all the research that I've done in bare grease and interviewing all these people. I'm,

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I realize what has been lost inside of modern society, with all the knowledge that we have,

that's wonderful. Like, that we've lost part of our humanity. And I'm not talking about uki, gooky, spiritual stuff. Like,

I, I don't know. I think I'm, I think we're pretty normal people. And actually, to be normal is to have an understanding of the, you know, some grapple of the, of the spirit realm, you know?

Yeah. And so. Well, one, let me use the word truism that you see in all societies, all people, they all seek a superior being, everybody. I mean, I don't care you go to remote places years ago that they'd never even seen anybody. I mean, hey, they're doing something. You know, they're looking at the sun, you know, there. So it's pretty much innate within us to seek this out.

Yeah. Yeah. So, believe it or not, it's too consistent. Yeah. The Seminoos, I mean, they're, you know, they're seeking out a spiritual life. Yeah. I always say, just to wrap that thought, I've always say, science answers the how, spirituality answers the why.

They don't have to be inseparable. And so if you deny one of those, you basically have to say that there is no why. And that's a pretty sad place to live. Yeah. And you only have the how. And that's not really a basis for building your life in my opinion. Yep. Yep.

No, I love when little tangents kind of take you down a road you wouldn't think about it. So good question, Josh. Okay. Except for how they didn't turn into ants, clearly. Got it. I'm still giving myself one point for that. Yeah, I'm going to go half a point. I'm going to go to full.

I'm at still a Zeno. I'm in charge of this trivia. You get a point. For ants? Yes. Okay. Yeah. We get a point.

We knew what he was talking about. Question number four. On Blood Trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bag. And there was a pool of blood. Oh my God.

He doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast. born in the outdoors. Where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper, from cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments. and the people left behind trying to piece them back together.

He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, IHeart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Question number four. On January 1, 1838, the imprisoned Seminoles were moved from St. Augustine, Florida,

to Charleston, South Carolina to more sanitary conditions under the supervision of Captain Pitcairn Morrison. How many Seminels were there? And this was mentioned at least twice. So I'll give you a hint. It's more than 50 and less than 400. And rhymes with Foo hundred and 48. Forty blevin. Okay.

Does everybody have an answer? Spencer Newhart gives you like two minutes. I give you like 15 seconds. Yeah, yeah. And I'll give you a bonus point if you can name the name of the ship that they're on. Yeah. Now, I don't want our trivia to become just like factual trivia. I would like...

To make stuff up? Well. Santa Maria. They have like maybe throw in a few more questions that were more like, essays. Conceptual questions. That's what you look for as a history.

You look for the concepts. Exactly. Okay. Okay. I would do really well in the conceptual question. Go ahead. Go ahead.

So my answer, based off of Clay's hit, 24011. Okay, Ben. How do you have time to draw the pictures? I did. Honestly, I knew it was 200 something.

I did know that. Okay. 248. Oh, good. 238? and Clay with the correct answer, 237. Gary Newcomb gets half a point. I gave him with a full point.

Because there was actually a little math in there because she said all 237 cinnamonals. And then the next one, I referenced Oceola and I said Osceola and the other 236. Okay, great. It's just one of the tricks of the podcast and trade. Okay, this one everybody should get because it was discussed. What was the name of the play?

that the prisoners were taken to see at the Dock Street Theater in Charleston. I feel like you're setting us up for failure when you say this one, everyone should. Little known fact, Christy and I went on our 25th anniversary last year. We went to Charleston, and we almost went to go see a play at the Dock Street Theater. No way. Did you really? Wow, and y'all have been married a year longer than us. Two.

We just celebrated our 26th anniversary. Oh, wow. Yeah. Great. How long have you been married, Dad? I don't remember It's more than 50 Yeah

Because we said 73 We were married 51 51 51 years 51 years Okay everybody got to answer

from the tape Riva Hamilton Hamilton Hamilton Okay I was close Those are blanks Because I didn't remember

Gary Nothing to do with a celestial being? Yeah. Okay. Okay.

This is a, this is a, a name one of the artists that painted Osceola's portraits just before his death. There were two of them that he mentioned.

And there were actually a lot more. Well, this is the, this happened three days before his death. We need to start. Hey,

this is a name that do you remember this name, Ben? I did. It rung a bell one of the two. Yeah, because this guy was really famous. This guy also painted Boone, right? No.

No. No. Well. Sure sounded like that in the podcast. One of them. You guys. No, I did equate this man painting Osceola to the young portrait painter. His name has escaped me, but it wasn't George Catlin.

But painted Boone. Well, Clay just gave one of the answers. Kyle Carroll Kyle Carroll Who made this Kyle is a modern artist in Game Warden He was our guest on our last render

Oh dad's just writing his in I can't spill Picasso Okay well we're on a roll here folks Okay I do have to talk about this I really You kind of get the sense

When you These painters I mean this was before photography Yeah. Like the only way that the American public would know what someone looked like if someone painted them. I mean, how cool would that be? How cool would the pace of life? It was just interesting. Yeah. And then these guys would also, I mean, they would sit for hours, days. You know, the Boone, the Boone portrait painter went to Boone's house. And I'll never, I'll never forget this. Like I almost cried when I read it on the podcast. When I, you know, back in those episodes, just because I don't know, it was just like a touching human moment. Right. Daniel Boone, this American archetype of identity, frontiersman. He was so unknown when he died.

He was aged 84 and had been, and was in Missouri. His neighbors didn't even know. His neighbor, this guy traveled down from 100 miles via horse, gets within a, like a mile of Boone's house. and he stops and asks a man, hey, do you know Daniel Boone? And the guy goes, no? And the man's wife overhears the conversation with this stranger.

And she goes, yeah, that's the old man that lives down by the river. You know? Yeah. And he goes, oh, yeah, that old white-haired guy. And then he goes down there and finds Boone roasting venison on a ramrod over a fire in his house.

84-year-old man, Daniel Boone, you know, captured by the Shannis. They call them Big Turtle, never had a shawnee wife. He loved one woman his whole life. Oh, Brent, we're here. Yeah, yeah. And then Boone dies. And that's the only actual portrait of Boone that we have. And then Osceola dies just days after they paint his portrait.

These were the first portraits that ever came out about Osceola because he was running from the law. I mean, he was like Osama bin Laden in a way. I mean, like, you know, just in the American consciousness, it would have been like essentially like a terrorist. But people wanted to know what he looked like. People, you know, I think that's fascinating. I appreciate you saying that because we're in our world of just photos everywhere. Yeah. Now we got AI can make images.

It's like we don't really appreciate how valuable that stuff is. That's why Dolly Madison, you know, ran into the White House to grab George Washington's portrait when the British attack in the War of 1812. That's a good history teacher. It's like, we got to save this thing. And yeah, we don't. And it was hard at trying to get students to appreciate old art because then it was like, who cares about this old guy? It's like, no, man, that was very significant. And then they would always write about them.

That was the point. This is more of a monologue today. They would write about him. A verbal description. Yeah, and I thought his description, it was a little, you know, he talked to me. It was interesting just the way he described Osceola's character. He said, you could search the world and never find a man like this. I think about those guys who sat in silence for days while they painted their,

I remember hearing about the impact that hairstylists have, like that. people just kind of talk incessantly, and it has to do with the proximity that someone is to your face and they're touching you and they're like right in your intimate space. And I would assume that that would be somewhat the similar. Yeah. It'd be like me and my barber, Drew. Shout out to Drew.

Shout out to Drew. So George Catlin was one of the artists. I'm coming to see you, buddy. Look at this. He's bringing Shep with him. I'm bringing Shep and I'm bringing Bear. I will not be it to be. He's got to run away.

So George Catlin was one of these artists. Burbin, Barbara and Bentonville, Arkansas. Do you remember the other one? Clay. The artist? It was George Catlin was one of them. Who was the other one? He was the guy that painted this one.

Yep. Curtis. Last name Curtis. Robert John Curtis. Yeah, yeah. Excellent. Okay. Do you, when I posted these pictures on my Instagram,

well it was a guy that listened to the podcast I think sometimes text cannot be translated sometimes in the spirit it was given but the guy was like oh man I can't believe that Osceola looked like that I was expecting a bad to the bone warrior and here this guy

is dressed up in a feminine face they all said that yeah and anyway the guy was like disappointed with the paintings and some other bear greasers came in and like kind of ridiculed the guy like, come on, dude, this is, and I even got on there and said, yeah, this wasn't a portrait of Osceola like in the, in the swamps. This would be, this would be equivalent to like a president wearing a tuxedo. Right. Being painted. Yeah. You know, like it wasn't like a rugged. And it's not the image of Osceola we want to see. I got what the guy was saying. Yeah, yeah. Like I wanted to see him out in the swamps and his war, war outfit, which may not have been much different than that. But anyway, the guy. Camo. Later would. come on when we all started kind of challenging him.

And he was like, man, he was a good guy. He was just kind of being funny. Okay, I've tried to steer away from doing too many dates, but there's an important date in this podcast. What was the date Osceola died? That's a good one. Got it. Okay, Misty?

January 6. January 6. We got a January 6th. We got a January 6th. Bear? January 6, 1838. January 6. You guys are totally influenced by modern American politics.

Well, you just said it. 1838. Gary got the year, right? That's pretty good, Dad. It was January the 30th. At 6. At 6 a.m. 6.m. 6.

20. 6.m.? 6.m. or was 620? 6.20. What was January 6th in the podcast? That's when they were transported to Charles. That's the only date that I heard in the whole podcast. Well, and that date is now part of.

American history January 6th, the insurgent. It'd be like you saying September 11th, you're going to remember that. Yeah. Okay, two more questions. We're winding down here. Wow, wow.

We're winding down here. To whom was the preserved head of Osceola reportedly given to by Wheaton's son-in-law, Dr. Daniel Whitehurst. The gentleman in New York. Famous family. Famous family. Dr. Wickman talked about his family.

Last name will work for me. We're going to start with Gary Newcomb this time. Gary? Good job. Bear, nothing. Ben? I do remember the Mots now that I, yeah, I didn't get it in the time. Rockefeller.

Mott. The correct answer is Gary Newcomb and Clay Nukk. Were they part of the applesauce? This is my dream that everybody that listens to this podcast, every bear greasier out there, when they walk through the grocery store and they see Mott applesauce. Yes.

That they'll tell their kids that guy probably in their family, someone knows where Osceola's head is because he had it. It could be in the applesau. Could be. I mean, I would be really proud if I overheard that conversation in that store. A little kid in a buggy. and a dad or mom going, those guys right there have Osceola's head.

Am I right? That would be great. I don't know if that's something you should say to your little kid. Why? I'll just be honest. They should use that in their advertising campaign. Mom Applesauce. Keepers of the head of Osceola.

I don't know. I don't think the Seminoles would be happy with that. I don't think that'd go over well. Okay. Last question. This is an easy one, folks. mentioned on two separate podcasts. Who wrote

the hit song Seminole Wind? Blow, Seminole Wind. Sure they were all going to get this. Don't show everybody yet. Come on, man. Not everybody's answered. Okay, Misty.

Your forest is growing. John Anderson. Are you going to running a tree? Thanks, Misty. John Anderson. The Beatles. The correct answer is John Anderson. John Anderson.

So who had the most? I had two. I had two. One point five for me. I felt like Rockefeller should have probably got a little further. We've got a tie here. I had two and a half, I think.

Gary Newcomb's. Oh, man. The declared me a half a point on. That's the best I've ever done. The patriarch of the Newcomb family, winner. Let's give Gary Newcomb a hand. I don't think, Clay, you should take it

personal that we don't remember the details. It's not really the... I wouldn't remember details unless I wrote something down. That's the only way I'd remember a date. You need to start taking notes. Yeah. No, no, it was tough. Okay, we're...

Wrong meaning. We're going to close down with just... Not closed down, but I want to go around. What was the most impacting part of this day? What surprised you the most? Would you have known that... No. Anything about Osceola?

Very little, except Osceola, Arkansas. Yeah, there's a town. Yeah. No, I've thought about this quite a bit, so my answer will be very astute. The fact that just 2,000 of them, the whole American government, the power of the whole military, couldn't whip these folks. Yeah. I mean, they're still here in her last comment. Yeah.

Yeah. That didn't impact what I was thinking. My thinking was really there was 5,000. It ended up being about 2,000, wasn't there? Yeah. And that number even dwindled down to 500. Yeah. And they just couldn't get them out of the swamps.

It kind of reminds me of some wars America has been in. You know, it's hard to beat a guy when he's in his own turf. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, that's kind of pretty. wild to me. It is. It really, that's a good, that's a good comment. Good comment.

Bear, what stood out to you? I think cutting off the head in the name of science. Yeah. Was pretty grimy. Like, putting it in a jar, putting it out in his little store there, I don't know, that part

just didn't really make a ton of of sense to me. Well, I'm glad you brought that up because I want to talk about it. Was he a villain? Or was he a man of science? Because did you not hear the context that I built around? Yeah, I heard it. That thing by Theta Purdue, the modern paper that was like,

hey, this was the time period when all of a sudden, for the first time in history, the world was interested in the material culture of ancient civilizations. And what you didn't see, I just read a paragraph out of that thing, was that there was a big movement going on with the Indian Removal Act of 1830 that everybody thought that Native Americans were going to be completely wiped out from the earth, like gone, like never. And so they were trying to, like some people were thinking, man, we got to preserve this.

You know, we got to somehow hold on to this as part of history because that was when a bunch of stuff in Egypt and all these things started popping up and we never had interest in that stuff before. Okay, here's what I think. I think that maybe, like, to an extent, it was kind of justifiable in the name of science to cut off his head.

But I think a lot of times, like in the same way that, like, you know, some, like snake guys might be a little bit, goofy, like they're really good with snakes, but they're kind of like, you know, parts of, you know, some can be a little bit crazy. Just say what you're thinking. I don't know what you're thinking. I think some of them could be a little bit crazy.

I think this guy might have been a really good scientist, chopped off the head, did some good science, but was also just a little bit off. A little bit crazy. I got you. I got you. I agree. Putting it out on display in a grocery store or whatever it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's, that was, I'm going to jump off of bear. I'm going to kind of cut in line because sure. This is the part that I did, I disagree with the context around it. I think that it just speaks to their total disconcern with the Native American to just come and it, it, it was, I,

it made me so sad. I mean, that that's the, just how they, how little they thought of them that they're, burial rituals in there, that they would just, you give that to them. I mean, if you had respect for Osceola, you give that to his people. You let them follow their rituals and mourn and grieve appropriately. And now, I'm not, believe me, I'm on Osceola and the Seminole's side 100%. That's why I told this story. But they were prisoners of war. Yeah.

I mean, what did they do when they killed Osama bin Laden? He dumped his body in the ocean. Did they not? I don't know, did they? I think they did. Because they didn't want, they didn't want it to be honored in that culture. If they buried him somewhere,

it would become a martyr. It's not. You've kind of set it up where we can't disagree with you or else we're completely unpatriotic. No, no, no, no, because I'm on your side. I'm on your side. But I think, I just, they had enough respect for this man to want his head.

So, I mean, and to be intrigued with it. Who did? Whedon had enough respect for him that he wanted his head. And the people... I have a different opinion. Okay. But I don't know that it's... I don't know that you can classify as hero or villain.

I think he was an opportunist. Yeah. I think, I mean, by the things that he took off of his body, you know, he kept those gorgets, he kept the other things. And then he kept his head because he was an opportunity. It was, it was, I mean, and maybe this makes him a villain. That's what I think. He was, he was an opportunist and he saw it was a, it was a novelty to him.

Sure, sure. I think opportunist is a really nice way of saying a greedy, a greedy jerk. And I think that's what he was. I think that's what he was. And to the point of, yeah, it's just vile. Yeah, I couldn't, you could tell when I was talking to Dr. Wickman, I was shocked that she didn't just immediately go, he's a villain. And I appreciated her trying to show me the other side of the story that maybe he wasn't.

Because it just kind of, that's the thing about history is that you can just label somebody just like, bam, just like villain. And, you know, maybe he wasn't because, I mean, that was 200 years ago. 200 years ago, just it doesn't make it right, but society was way different. And I think it's hard to get around the fact that these were at the, this time as prisoners, powerless people without any rights, and he knew he could take advantage of it and get away with it. Like, what if it had been a U.S. president? Would he have been able to cut off the head and keep it and nobody cared?

No. I mean, during that time, the Native Americans were absolutely marginalized. I mean, this is like 150 years before the civil rights movement. But Osceola was famous by them. He was keeping the head of someone famous. It wasn't an Indian. It was a famous leader. Yeah.

Native American leader. So I think he was, I think he was looking for an opera. I mean, it was an opportunity. I mean, I can just picture this guy, you know, at some point being like, hey, you want to see the head off the old. I know. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

I hate it. Yeah. I mean, he put it in his grocery store. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's, that's just what they did. What, I mean, that I think, I think during that time. And now, I think it's also of note. that during that time was, was with a, well, especially when the civil war came,

it's like medical science really went through like the roof because they were, they had bodies to study and dissect and do a bunch of weird stuff that we don't want to talk about. But that's actually we ride on the shoulders of that knowledge today, you know. I mean, it's like, it's like we don't know, nobody I know wants to be a mortician. I'm sure there's some morticians out there, listen to Bear Greas. Thank you for what you do. Yeah, but it's like somebody's got to do that. And somebody had to understand the anatomy of the human body.

Right. It's not a justification for taking the head of Osceola. But it just kind of puts it in the context. I think it was nefarious. I absolutely do. I think here's many of things I want to say. This is actually my takeaway. It was this story.

If you're going to villainize, villainize something. It shouldn't be the person. It should be the culture and the mentality that he grew up in, which like you're saying, absolutely viewed Native Americans, other ethnicities as lesser human.

And there's plenty of documentation for that. And there was even like a scientific theory behind that. But I like that you're bringing in the context because it was kind of a golden age for science. And we really don't appreciate how much has happened in the past couple hundred years with that. Even simple things about people being organ donors. Yeah.

Well, you know, in the Middle Ages, that would not be allowed. Like, the Europe was so far behind medically because of this dogma around corpses and organs, stuff like that. And so to bring back that science discussion from earlier, scientists have had to pioneer and suffer a lot in the name of getting to find out things that we now benefit from. Yeah. And that's something just to consider is like, yeah, they had some jacked up stuff, the mentalities, but these guys viewed themselves as like the cutting edge pioneers. And when there's a lot of progress, there's some messed up stuff that happens in the process. But I do think, and this is, I'm not a specialist in this area, I think if you would have had

a hundred guys in a room just like him in the same profession, I think there probably would have been equal a number of guys that wouldn't have been opportunistic and thought, well, let's maybe think about this just for a moment because it is pretty, pretty extreme in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way to say. You know, what was interesting to me, I was surprised to hear Dr. Wickman say that she believed the head was still around.

And then when she began to describe to me her search for Osceola's head and basically opened up the door of like, oh, if you understand medical, the medical systems and the museum systems and the archives that some of these places have, you understand how you could lose a head in a jar and how it would be very probable that that head is somewhere right now and maybe it's unlabeled or maybe it's, you know, all the different scenarios. And I was fast, I had no idea that she had searched for Osceola's head as extensively as she had. and she's fully convinced that it's somewhere. And Jake Tiger, as I understood it,

and I just took a clip of what he said, which what he said was actually longer. But, I mean, he actually believes it's in California at that bohemian club. Yep. I mean, that's what somebody in his family had told him, you know, that it's there. But.

I think it's one of those things that could have easily gotten lost on the archives. Yeah. I think it could be sitting on a shelf in a museum somewhere and people just wouldn't know it. Yeah. Or accidentally gotten thrown away. Yeah. I think that's just as probable. Or I thought it was pretty a valid point that what if you're Duke University and you know you have it.

And you know that if you come out with it in 2024 that you are going to be. just lambasted by the world. How did you get this? Why have you not told us until now? And it's like, this will never be known that we had this, you know, something like that. It's Dr. Weeden all over again. Yeah.

So if you have any knowledge of the whereabouts of this artifact. Call the Seminoles of Florida. Yep. And the music to unsolved mystery. That's like the scariest song in my entire childhood memory. Well, yeah. So, Josh, what was your favorite part? I thought it was fascinating just the story of how they treated those Indians in Charleston.

I mean, taking them into a play? I mean, that's crazy. Yeah, it's hard to fathom it. It's weird to me. It's always fascinating to me the dichotomy of how people, treat some of these prisoners and that that they're respected and and while at the same time they're their they're criminals I was I recently talked with a I was talking with a with a judge and he was talking about he used a term and I can't remember the exact term but

basically were you were you in court I'm not allowed to say But he talked about people who were good people who committed crimes. And then you had people who were clearly just bad people who committed crimes. And how the jury would often treat these criminals had they done, you know what I mean, maybe done the same thing, but been lenient with one and hard on the other. I see. And I think about, you know, this guy who really, I mean, he really just wanted to protect his land and his people. It wasn't like he was a terrorist and going and committing acts in New York City. Exactly.

But he was wanting to, and people could sympathize with that. And so I think that that produced this, this, you know, definitely, you know, being in a prison in, in Florida with lice and measles and all this stuff. And then being moved to better conditions in Charleston and then, you know, being taken to plays in town. and it's just, it's interesting to me to see that dichotomy of how, how he was treated, and then, you know, just dying from an infection. Yeah. You know? Who's to say, who's to say had he lived, what would have happened to him?

Yeah. You know, who knows? I think guys like that would have a hard time living after defeat. Yeah. Yeah. He probably would have slipped into oblivion somewhere. Yeah. Like Daniel Boone.

You know what? Dan O'Boon was famous at one time. But I think a guy like Osceola, and this is why we're still talking about him, is he was so, he so didn't have a plan B. Right. That I think if they had took him to Florida or if they had taken him to Oklahoma, I mean, I don't, just something would have happened. Like what?

I mean, he just would have died there because he. Oh, yeah. It would have. It would have taken the life out of him. Well, I'm saying he would have. or you think there would have been an uprising. Yeah. I just think that just was like where he was at.

But, Misty, what was your favorite part? Well, I thought, so sorry. You thought we already talked about that. I didn't, I wasn't planning to say anything else. Sometimes I have to prepare. No, okay, that's fine. I thought, I did, I'll just say,

I did think that what Patricia did with the play was pretty incredible, that she went and wrote it all down. and then had them come and read it. I was just like, this woman's pretty hardcore. I wish I wish we could have Patricia Whitney on the render.

It would be off the chain. I actually got to talk to her on the phone a little bit and she is everything that you hear on the podcast. She would have definitely won trivia. Yeah, she would have definitely schooled us at trivia. Wow.

Yeah. Well, hey, this has been great. This has been really great. And the good news, is that there's a whole other like full throttle Osceola episode that and I already already foreshadowed

there's no shadow a full sunned what it's going to talk about because in 1967 they exhumed Osceola's headless body maybe da da da maybe his head was there

say no more say no more we don't want a full son everybody. Well, I mean, too late. You got a podcast. No, no, no. I'm just building

anticipation for it. I couldn't include it. Like, it was just too much to put in this episode, but like there's a whole other thing that happened that the plot just keeps getting thicker. In like 1967,

since, you know, since you were alive, they went and dug up his grave. The year after I got out of high school. is that right I'll be dying were you there

well no okay I'm just yeah hey in closing I killed this buck the other day true I would have brought

I've had it it's been a while since I've had a decent year bow hunting uh killed that buck and then I killed another one about

let me guess 138 58s close yep pumped about that. Good buck. Congratulations. Yeah. That's great, bud.

Well, thanks guys. Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls in building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts. Now, I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use. I'm not going to go, I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen.

But when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for. I have a great turkey hunting track record. If you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contests, right? That's who I listen to. I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps' cut,

and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts. Check out prime cuts at Phelpsgamecalls.com. I think you'll be glad you did, and you'll find out that the Steve Rinella cut is an easy-to-use cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good turkey noises and getting action. This is an I-Heart podcast, guaranteed human.