Bear Grease - Ep. 276: Render - Bear Dens, Grapevines, Selling Squirrel Dogs

Episode Date: December 4, 2024

Things are lively on this episode of the Bear Grease Render as host Clay Newcomb talks about finding a bear den and bringing home a 40’ surprise. Special guest, Terrell Spencer, talks about equipment redundancy as a point of consideration on whether to sell Tess, the squirrel dog. And, we speculate wildly about the mysteries surrounding the grave of Osceola as we wrap up this series on the Seminole war leader. If you have comments on the show, send us a note to [e-mail] Connect with Clay and MeatEater Clay on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, and Youtube Clips MeatEater Podcast Network on YouTube Shop Bear Grease MerchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. First Lights fieldware collection is made for the work that happens long before opening day and continues when the season ends. Products built for early mornings, full days and real use. Hard wearing where they need to be versatile where it matters. No shortcuts. Just gear designed for the work that earns the season.

Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new field. Worldware Gear at firstlight.com. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called the Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast. Presented by FHF Gear, American Made, Purpose Built, Hunting and Fishing Gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. I have three major things I'd like to do before we talk about Osceola.

There's the final Osceola render, which I really feel like we've done it, we've done four Osceola podcasts. And they've all been, to me, really interesting. And I think to other people too. Yeah. And as a matter of fact, we may just turn the whole bear grease into Osceola. I like it. Osceola grease. Well, I wouldn't say that.

Yeah, that's... No. We just turn it into like Osceola's... Osceola's life and legacy. You need to get like silver plating on everything. Yeah. Because he had silver... What are those called?

Gorgates. Gorgates, yeah. I didn't really even know what they were. So we're going to end up talking about Osceola, but I've got three, like, very important things to talk about. First, we'll start with a story. Then there's a sales question

that I'd like to present. to the team. Sure. And, but first, let me say, or I want to tell you a story, and I'm just dying to tell it. The Arkansas bear season last until November the 30th. On November the 29th, I had a, just like a hankering, an intuition, just like an unquenchable desire to go to a certain place. I just couldn't make it go away

like for a week and I just thought about it being the last two days of bear season and it was a place that I bear hunt but Dad have you had that happen to you before it happened I've had it happen I tell you and watching football on a Saturday interested in the games

and I just kept thinking I know those deer are in one particular place where I hunt and finally I just got up and went down there climbed in a tree killed a deer put it in their truck came home. Watch the football. Watch the rest.

It was a long way. So the football game for over. Yeah. Back in 30 minutes. I really, I think the older you get, the more you recognize what is maybe just like a fleeting idea versus something you really need to pay attention to. And, man, so I went down here. But specifically, it wasn't as much, it was as much the location as it was the way I was going to get in there, which will play. play into this story.

Josh. Have I introduced my guest? You haven't. No. Yeah. Misty Newcomb. So great to have you. Good to be here.

Yes. My beloved neighbor and friend and the best pastured poultry grower that I know. 100%. I cooked one of his turkeys for Thanksgiving. Me too. Phenna. Yes. Very good.

So Spence is here. Thank you. Who's been a featured guest on the Bear Gries podcast before? Yeah. On the soil podcast. I believe that all of us have minus one. Me and Spence are both environmental soil and science majors from the University of Arkansas. Yeah.

I call it an inch deep and a mile wide. Straight down to the regalith. Okay, one time Spence and Clay and our other neighbor were digging a big hole in our ground to, we were cooking a hog under the ground, and they were doing a hole in the ground. This is a funny story about y'all being in the same major. And not to lose the audience, but we're actually in the middle of the bear story. Go ahead. Okay.

Well, this is a good story just while we're introducing to people. We're roasting a pig. We're roasting a pig in the ground. And you two and our other neighbor were all digging this hole. And Spint said something to the effect of, man, those crop soil environmental water science degrees sure are coming in handy right now because y'all were digging in the soil. And our neighbor said, who was a classical letters major, whatever that means, classical. studies and he's like well turns out classical studies is also coming in it. That was funny.

Yeah, that was funny. It was good. It's good throwback. Introductions in the middle of the bear story. Josh Lambridge spillmaker, great to see you. Bear John Newcomb. Great to see you. Gary Believer Newcomb.

A legend. Great to see you. November 29th, Clay got a hankering. A hanker. Hankering to go. But it was a way to get into the spot. Usually I stay up high on the ridges to get in there. I wanted to stay low.

in the hollers. You know, I wanted to stay. It didn't make sense, but that's what I wanted to do. And when you go into places like that, you never know what you're going to get into. It could just be a terrible, like disastrous hike. I got to where I park at 4 p.m., which is late. It gets dark at like 5.30. And I just made up my mind that I was just going to, it didn't matter if it took me, you know,

until I had to walk in the dark to get back where I wanted to camp. I brought my camp and stuff, and basically was going to hunt the final day of the Arkansas bear season. And I'm side hill and low in this draw, and like 20 minutes before dark, I'm on a super steep part of the hill, and I see a huge pile of freshly excavated dirt, like so big that I immediately knew what did.

Backhoe. backhoe had been in there. Backhoe had been in there. They put in a water line to a subdivision. Nope. I knew it was a bear. And I saw... Like how big was this pile of a room?

It was like a truck hood and a half. Okay. And it was on a steep hillside. And it's bear season. It's illegal to kill a dinned bear. So I wasn't like going to walk up and shoot a bear if it was in there. But I really wanted to see if one was in there. and I and I

So anyway I walk down there And I mean it was a nerve-wracking moment Because it just kind of crept up there And had my coon light with me And I didn't initially pull it out But just peeked into that bear den Half expecting a bear to shoot out of there Or growl or something

I've been on a lot of bear den studies And I knew that you could actually walk up To a bear den and a bear Sometimes won't even do anything Sometimes they'll just stay in there to eyeball you. And anyway, I get up there and sure enough it's a bear den. It's a hole about, about as big as a 55-gallon drum, kind of an oval egg-shaped,

right in this little kind of... Did it widen out inside? Inside it widened out both directions about probably... I think a six-foot man could have laid down sideways in that hole. Oh, my gosh. Dang. You know, maybe it may... How far in did it go?

Probably like further than I could reach with my arm. Okay. But probably like three and a half feet, three feet. I mean, it was a big hole. That's impressive. Yeah. And there's no bear there. Well, I've got my camping stuff, you know, so I go up on the hill. You're just going to camp in there?

Yeah. You just set up shop. I go up on the hill and walk like a quarter mile away and spend the night. And again, it's, I feel like I'm not going to shoot a bear in the day. This bear's not den. He's still roaming around. He's just dug his den, but I knew that that bear was close. I really felt like that bear was within 300 yards of that den.

I came in there in the morning at daylight. The wind was blowing up the valley or up the hill all day. It was, I didn't really understand the thermals on it. I think it was just a prevailing wind, but it blew in my face all day, blowing my scent straight up the mountain. And I crept to within 45 yards of that den and just set, there. I sat there all day. I sat there from basically 7 a.m. until 406.

I decided, it gets dark at 530, and decided to walk out of there. Went over there and hung a camera, a moultry truck camera, just like that right there. And hung it up in a tree bear so that I knew, I almost brought a bear box. Most of my cameras this year have been slapped by bears, even in bear box. and they slide around. And so I've spent a ton of time going into real backwoods places, putting up cameras. And within both of them, within 24 hours,

a bear move the camera pointing in an irrelevant direction. So here I am, and I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to use this unbear boxed camera and not the bear not tear it up. And I shimmy up a little tree about four inches in diameter and hang this camera. It's on a steep slope. So the camera's like, eight or nine feet off the ground, but pointing right into the den. And 406, I head out of there and hunt my way back to the truck.

Before I get back to the truck, that camera has a picture of a bear coming in there. And he was a color phase bear. It was, and when he came in, he was trailing me like a hound. I mean, he was just tracing every step I made. I was really surprised he came in after what I smelled, you know. Oh, let's tell him what, Bear, I texted you that night. I had good sale coverage in there, and I texted you, and I said, Bear, I found a Bear den.

Yeah. You said. Well, I asked if you were going to sit there the next day, and you said you couldn't tell me because the bear might hear you. Yeah. And I was, you know, two hours away, and we were talking to the phone. So not only could the pair hear him that he can intercept text messages. Or share in McLeigh's location.

I first learned about this from the co-eukon people in Alaska, who they have very many bear hunting taboos, and one of them is to vocalize your plans about bear hunting because the bear will hear you. So if we were going bear hunting dad tomorrow, I would go, hey, dad, I'd say we ought to walk around, you know, Miller Mountain tomorrow and just see what we could find. Or if we knew right where a bear was, we wouldn't directly address that we were going bear hunting. It would be much more cryptic.

And I'm not saying I believe that, but you still don't tell you. But it's worth a shot. Why take the risk? I'm going to start when Coons are hauling my layers out, I'm going to start taking it. that tactic when I set those foot holes. Yeah. Just don't ask me. Don't ask, don't tell.

That's something different, but. Yeah. That's our bear hunting philosophy now. It's like, if you want to go, just come on. We just can't discuss it. I mean, I'm doing all this, a lot of research on bears, and I'm serious. I'm like, I'm like kind of paranoid about it. So, anyway, it was a really unique in, I've never found.

an active bear den, other than going on den studies with gaming fish where they have collared bears and they know where they're at. But it was really cool. But here's perhaps the most interesting part of the story, Ms. Newcomb, is I had to drive on a small road to get back into where I parked, an open road. And I came out of there in the dark. And I drove 35 miles on a major highway in Arkansas and pulled into a Harps grocery store to get some food before I drove on home. And I want to show you what was, well, when I get to, when I get to the grocery store, I have no less than a 40-foot vine hanging off the back of my truck. Dad, did we measure it?

We measured it. You measured it? Yeah, I want to show it to you. Are we talking grape, talking Greenbrier? What are we talking? Poison Ivy. Is this? Yeah.

Have we made sure, Gary, this is poison, not poison ivy? Hold that camera when he comes in. Oh, boy. Muscatad. He's about to destroy some stuff. Could be. Oh, my gosh. Fox Great.

Are you kidding me? Pawsing Great. Good night, son. Holy. That's a wild grate. Yeah. I got to Harps. Hold on.

Put your headphones on. So when I got to Harps. Harps Misty. That vine, which, you know, is as big as my thumb down on the end, it's 40 foot long. Drug. Yeah. That grapevine was hanging off of my truck. Was it stretched out or was it wound up?

Stretched out in a straight line hanging off of the back of my bumper. Clay, there's red paint all over the. And I was driving fast, and I passed multiple people on a, two-lane highway with that right there. So I don't really know what to make of it, but there's the squirrel dogs. You might be a redneck. You might be a redneck. If you have 40 foot a great line. Did you keep it? Did you pass people? Yeah, yeah, I passed people. No one, I got no, I mean, maybe nobody could. No one said anything to you? So you're probably whipping people. Yeah, like a jellyfish with the corolla stuck in it. Probably. That's a thing. I was on a

A work trip recently in the Pacific Northwest, and we got a rental car, and someone didn't latch the trunk very well when we put all of our bags in the trunk. As we pulled out, I went probably within about 10 feet of pulling out of the rental car place, onto the main, you know, the airport, main road. The trunk flies open. And we couldn't stop, so we waited like a quarter of a mile to stop because that was the first pull off. in that quarter of a mile, people were honking. We had very enthusiastic waving of the hands. I bet no less than six people made a scene about your doors open. As if we wouldn't have known that, I would have thought that somewhere.

I mean, it was dark, and I don't think you were going so fast people couldn't catch up with you to let you know. But you were probably doing damage to their cars. Yeah. Just could have been a fight or flight situation. Yeah, I would have honked. Yeah, if you get some like Instagram messages, of people like telling you, hey, you whip me. If somebody will send me a video of me driving down the road.

It could be Darren Bob on Channel 5 News. All right, I got to get this out of here. On Blood Trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bag. And there was a pool of blood. Oh, my God, he doesn't have a hit.

Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors, where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper, from cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwoods.

Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season two of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, Iheart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. So that was kind of the epilogue of the bear story.

The good news is I've got a camera on that bear den. I'm really interested to see what happens. So the bear that came in right after I was there, like within an hour. And I'm going to post those videos on my Instagram. He trailed me like a hound and then spooked. I mean, when he ran off, he was like, he was just spooked. The next day, 24 hours later, a different bear came into that bear den. Did it go in?

I couldn't tell. The, you know, in the video, no. But the bear would have been longer there. You know, the video didn't just capture the whole thing. But that bear smelled me 24 hours later, trailing me like a hound. It was just like super spooky. And when it left it like, you know, like a scalded dog, just kind of like, they are, I'm telling you, that's the reason I don't even text my bear hunting plans to be. I've got another story like that of this year

you know every time I put up a camera bears knocked it off I went into this saddle put up a camera walk through the saddle like eight hours later a bear comes through with his nose on the ground trail on my every step looks at the camera comes over

knocks it off really yeah they're they are that you're watching them? They are on to you. That's pretty crazy. You post this stuff on Instagram though, right? Like the Bear Dan and all that? Yeah.

But you won't text it or tell anybody about it. Well, it's mainly hunting plans. And I'm not, I'm not, I'm no longer hunting that bear. I'm just saying there might be a little incregruity there. True. Well, I'm no longer hunting the bear. Okay, okay. You know, I mean, the season's over.

Okay. So I have before me, I've got a banker, I've got a young entrepreneur. I've got an old entrepreneur. Former. A failed entrepreneur. Former failed entrepreneur. We were thinking it we weren't going to say it.

I've got a successful entrepreneur. And another successful entrepreneur. Wow. I'm a pet owner. And a pet owner. I've got a question, need some serious input. So we have three feasts right now. and the best one, like, by far, is that...

Would the whole family agree that she's by far the best? Oh, it's squirrel hunting? Yeah. Well, we don't know yet because those ages... That's what I thought. Went with her and was, you know... Okay, this is good. Let's see neutral on the family front.

Well, I have strong opinions about the qualities of our children. Well, I mean, I think you would agree, Bear. At the moment, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like right now. But in the future? Yeah, yeah. We're not talking about potential.

Okay, okay. Yeah, we're talking about like today. Right. And anyway, Tess, beautiful dog. Brenda-backed, white-footed, flashy feist. She's five years old. And Bear is raising up right now, a young feist that's like eight and a half months old that's doing really good. And Tess is like, Tess, I would say this amongst the company of people that I'm around who Michael Lanier is.

is my Jedi master squirrel mentor. Right. And I mean, Michael Neer just knows what he's talking about, okay? I would say this to Michael. There's a fair chance Michael will hear this. When I take Tess hunting, and I'm not a squirrel dog expert, I'm not. But I've hunted with quite a few people. And I don't, Tess is rarely outdone by another dog.

Like when you hunt all day, when you're like, well, we, you know, everybody's, kind of keeping track. You're not vocalizing it, but you're kind of like in your head keeping track of we killed this many squirrels over that dog and this many over that dog. She's a finished good squirrel dog. I mean, you could turn her out today anywhere in the country where there's gray or fox squirrels and you're going to kill a bunch of squirrels. Pleasure to hunt. It's a lot of hype. Is this leading somewhere? I think we should sell her. Oh. because she's good.

Because we've got this young dog, Dad, that we're going to want to start hunting. And it's kind of counterproductive to hunt. It may not seem like it, but when you got your good dog and you got a young dog, that good dog can sometimes just smother out the young dog. It'd be better probably just to hunt this young dog. And I don't want Tess in the prime of her life to stay in that pin.

And I think somebody that was getting into squirrel hunting or just wanted another, I would say three years of really good hunting and really five years. I think she'll hunt until she's 10. No guarantees. This is a live animal, folks. But she's still worth something. No money back guarantee.

She's worth something right now. And anyway, should I sell her, dad? For $250, I'd sell her, yeah. $250? $250? We bought her for more than that. We paid more for that. I'm kidding.

If she's as good. You're saying, I mean, she's worth a lot of money. Yeah. Where are you thinking, price-wise? Well, minimum bid. Where would the minimum bid start? Oh, wow. We can't do this yet.

Can't, okay. Maybe later. We haven't even decided. I want you to understand the way that can't do them works here. She's right outside here so she could hear that. She could hear. Squirrel dogs can't hear when you talk about them, though. It's not like a bear, okay?

No, Coon dogs can because, you can. because you said you wouldn't say something in front of a Jedi. Oh, I wouldn't say that he wasn't good. To his face. Yeah, to his face. But Tess might hear us and you're talking about us on. But see, Tess might even do better with somebody else. I think we've established it's a complicated system.

Bear, do you think we should sell the dog? Me and you are joint owners in this dog, essentially. I'm a little undecided because she is a really good dog. But O'Sage is looking very promising. and it would be, you know, disappointing just for her to sit in the pen during her prime just because, you know, we're only hunting Osage. I'm undecided. I need to think on it. Okay.

A little more. Josh? Out of here. Sell her. Sell her. Yep. She's a tool. She's a tool.

She's a tool. She is not much of a pet. She's actually a terrible pet. She's so driven. These other dogs run loose and we treat them like pets. They come in our house. Hey, listen, we've had dogs. We've had dogs for years.

We've got two dogs right now that are, like, part of the family. We had a dog for 10 years before that, a German Shepherd, that we bought for a pet. But he was so driven just to chase and play fetch that he wasn't a fun, like. Yeah, Gus. He wasn't a good pet. He was a pet with. He was so driven. Yeah.

So, I mean, he would have been great as a shepherd. shepherd. You know, he, he knew his call. So, I mean, Tess knows what she's doing, but she's a tool. She's a hunting tool. Spence. I mean, redundancy. Well, this other one isn't a sure thing, right? It's true. True. So, I mean. Bird in the hand. It's just like having two bailers. One goes down. You got another one. You got another one. Back up bailer. Yeah, I wonder why you can't hunt. I mean, you could hunt two dogs together. Bird, bird dogs. Sure. I mean, you like two good bird dogs. out there. Yeah.

Oh, you absolutely could hunt both of them, but a squirrel hunting is kind of a limiting factor of how many trees you can go to in an afternoon, like bear hunted tests and Osage the other day. And I mean, we were always going to a tree, sometimes even two trees at the same time. And it would take us too long to get there and the squirrels would be in a hole or something. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just, I don't know, it's just better to hunt like one dog.

Yeah. Could you guys not split up and do that? double your squirrel efficiency? Well, sure. But that's why, you know, you're kind of there to have fun together. Misty. Well, so I have, I'm very involved

in squirrel dog. Yeah, I can tell. The squirrel dog system here at the Newcomb Farm, and we have three, and I have a ranking scale for them, but there's sociability, and then there's squirrel, you know, productivity. How good are you at

squirrel hunting? And I think that these are two scales that have an inverse relationship. So the better you are at squirrel hunting, the less social skills you are. So let's start with everyone's favorite squirrel dog, except for Clay's. Tim, Tim, the squirrel dog. That guy is practically human. You know, he, he, the kids, we had Tim, we got Tim and Tess in, right before, in 2019. And so when we were all quarantined together at the house in 2020, Tim, he wants to, he gets energized by anything that excites you.

So we taught Tim to play to the harmonica. And when he sings, it's not like he barks. It's like he sings. He's on pitch. I mean, it's beautiful. Melody. Yeah. You can sing better than me.

It's almost as if this was what he was born to do. When you get the harmonica out, he gets excited, and he gets his heart and soul in it. I mean, he doesn't even pretend like this is not the most important thing. That assumes that a dog has a soul. Okay. So moving right along. Tim, Bear taught Tim to respond to a toaster oven. When in 2020, when we were all home, Bear decided he saw how easily trained.

Is this like the pop-up or the ones that you put it in? No, it makes a ping. You know what it goes off? So Bear realized that Tim just was interested in doing whatever we wanted to do. And so Bear said, hey, y'all, whenever I'm going to start toasting these waffles. And whenever I toast them, everyone, when it pops up, everyone make a big deal. Let's see if we can get Tim to do that. This was a bright spot during the pandemic.

It was. This is what we did. and we were all a quart tea together. And so Tim would see us react and he would just bark and he would get excited and he'd go sit there. And we'd all celebrate him and talk about what a good dog he was. The other day, I put a piece of toast in the Toaster River and I'm home by myself and I'm working downstairs. And it goes off and I don't think anything about it except that Tim is upstairs. And when he hears that Toaster oven go off, four years later, he freaks out and just comes running down the stairs, howling and barking and goes right to the closet where we keep it.

I mean, just went nuts on it. So Tim... So should we sell Tess? Tim cannot be given away. Tess is... She is a good dog. She really is a good dog. And she's not obnoxious.

Like, she'll stop barking when you ask her to. When Clay says, hush. She'll stop. She's really obedient. Hush! That's probably gives Tess like... That's too confusing for her. She's a good dog, but she just doesn't...

You know, she comes in the house and she wants in your trash. She, you, you bring a cat home and she trees it, you know, like she just, she is interested. Yeah, she's a machine. She's, she's not a, she's not a friend. I think Osage is right in between the two. She's, she has actually got the best, she's not as easily trained as Tim. I tried to get her to sing to harmonica. So should we sell Tess?

I don't like this question. I don't want to, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't. That was a long, that was a long monologue to like take some neutral position. Well, I mean, Tess is, she's a good girl. Well, you know, like, in she's a real. She got your broilers. She got your meat birds. She got your layers.

And then people try to always sell you on these dual purpose, and it never works out. So like hearing now that you got kind of a dual purpose, and they're pretty and they're nice and they're fun. But what's going to put squirrels in the pots? I'd lean hard now. On keeping her. I'm keeping her. Yeah. Keeping her.

Wow. Wow. You know. The last man just went up. A double-minded squirrel dog is unstable and all that is. Fortunately, Tim is super single-minded. He's not good at squirrel hunting. Well, I'm considering selling the dog.

That's all. So appreciate it. So our opinion meant nothing. Well, no, no, it did. It did. I mean, I'm just, I'm thinking about it. Do we have a price now? Well, I want to bring in some inside family business that I probably shouldn't air on the podcast.

I think this tendency, when you have something really good, that you know is super valuable to want to sell it. I think it has intergenerational of... That's happened zero times in my life. All right.

No, Tess is worth... Right now, she's worth something. And soon she won't be. I mean, like, people probably aren't going to pay much for a seven-year-old dog that just doesn't have a lot of hunting time left. But, so, you know, she's kind of at the... She's definitely older.

I mean, like, if you were, if you were wanting to buy a dog, you'd be hoping to buy a two, three-year-old dog. So she's five, and that's the thing. So when you get your tax return? She's depreciated. Yep, yeah. Great. Dad, you just bought a Bronco. I did. 20, 24. 2024. Tell us about it. Well, it's just, But, you know, it's a multi-purpose rig. Carrey's golf clubs run out of it. Did you have one of the old Broncos? No, I always had a Jeep.

I ran with, we were jeeping guys. And if you came and tried to ride with us and you didn't have a Jeep, we would just kind of giggle under our breath. Except when a Bronco pulled up. Now, they could run with the Jeep. But if you had, I'm not going to mention the brands, but. When you came with something other than a Jeep, a Ford Taurus. Yeah.

You know, you just really good off-road rigs. People you see them all the time, but they just wouldn't run the way we were running. But the Bronco is good, and this is the city boy rig. You know, I got my golf clubs in there. And I'm not going to take it off road. It's got a plastic bumper and a plastic front. But if you just cruise roads and climb hill, I mean, you know, it's pretty capable, man. And it's locked front and back.

Yeah. It's got all the off-road stuff on it. It's got what's called the Sasquash package. Oh. So it, you know, it sets up high 35-inch tires. It's got 35-inch tires right now. Right at 35. Has it got what I call a vine catcher bumper?

Like white lightning does? No. No, it passes vines. We'll have to get you one of those. Yeah. Can it make it up my driveway? I doubt it. That's pretty cool.

Yeah, that's pretty cool. Josh, let's do our Osceola quiz. Okay. Let's, Gary, can you grab those? We got our marker boards here. Okay. I'm going to pass them out. I think we all know who's probably going to win this one.

Everybody, everybody study up? Is it Clay? Everybody get their note cards. I don't need one. We got to set it. All right. So this is our fourth episode on Osceola, and the title was exhuming Osceola's grave.

And just a little backstory on the sequence. So the first episode was about Osceola's childhood, which was really interesting and talked a lot about the Seminoles. The second episode was the war years of Osceola's life when he fought in the Seminole Wars. Fascinating. The third episode was Osceola's death, which was fascinating.

Fourth episode, the epilogue, as Dr. Wickman called it, is the exhuming of Osceola's grave. So I don't think there's anywhere on the internet that you could go to learn more about Osceola in four hours. Negative. No way. Nothing. No way. Zero.

The lady you had on there was like... She's incredible. She's incredible. She is. You talked to her this week. I talked to her this week. I called her. She hadn't heard any of the episodes. She didn't know, you know, she wasn't up on podcast, you know, she's like, well, how? Where do you watch it? You know, stuff. Right. And,

and she, she was like, you know, after you left the other day, I thought of so many things that we missed, you know, that we could have talked about. That you didn't cover in the five hours you were right. Yeah, yeah. Oh, and I was, yeah, I was, it was one of the longest and best interviews I've ever done on Bear Grease with someone just passionate and knowledge. I just went on and on about how good she was. So, yeah, let's, we're going to do a quiz. Here we go. So write down your answer, Spence. Okay, so we're going to start here. We've got one, two, three, four, seven questions. Whoa. Okay. Yep. And some of them are, are not just based on fact. They're conceptual questions. So prepare some. Essay. It's more like essay. Short answer. Short answer. Short answer. Short

answer. Okay, this first one, according to seminal tradition, warriors buried facing east, because when the sun comes up, what does he use to transition to walk into the afterlife? Wow. Good question, Josh. Anybody remember that one? It was in the very opening section Dr. Wickman talked about. Looks like some people may not have been listening. Yeah. Shoot. Okay, everybody have their answers.

Now, I'm playing, but I don't really count. I can't win. We're going to start with Bear. Bear, what's your answer? Okay, if I had to guess, it'd be the ocean. Okay. Gary, what's yours? A Bronco.

Misty. His right leg. And Spence. I got nothing. Okay. Turkey tracks. What did you got to? The correct answer is the milky way.

The milky way. I can't believe it. Just as the sun's coming up. See, you threw me off with the sun thing. Just as the sun's coming up, you can see the Milky Way. And that's what he uses to transition. I was looking at the Joker the other. Dang.

Okay, here's another question that was used. Hopefully somebody can get this one. It was mentioned in there. This is brutal. When the soldiers were taking Osceola to bury him, what was the name of the type of coffin that Osceola was buried in. I remember that.

Come on, guys. I'll give you a hint. The first word of the coffin relates to a part of your body. I think I know this one. I got it. You got it? At least I got part of it. Okay.

Everybody got their answer? Bear? A head coffin. A head coffin. A head coffin. He wouldn't have been married in that. No, for sure. Gary.

Toe. Co. Coffin. Okay. To coffin. Misty? A Bronco. Tow pincher. To pencher.

To pencher. The correct answer is toe pincher. All right. You got one point. One. Mr. Spencer has one. Gary, you get 0.5 for that one. Point five.

How about we do 0.4? Okay. Third question. What year was Osceola's grave exhumed? That was mentioned many times. So everybody should get this one. Over and over. We get within the decade?

Nope. I would like the decade. Exact year. I didn't put an actual date on there just a year. I don't think you mentioned the actual date. No, we didn't say the actual date. Okay. Bear?

I should quit going first. I'd say 1973. Gary, 67. Okay. Misty? 63. 65. Ninety-seven is the answer with Gary.

Dad, you know. Dad, boy. What were you doing in 1967? I was just, digging up grades. First year in college. First year at college? Really?

I graduated 66, yeah. When were you in the Army? 69. 68, I think. So you went to college for a year. One year, I graduated 66. College one year, and we go, we're going to flunk out.

let's go to the army and fight for our country. That's what we did. Now, me and my buddy. Realistically, though, the Vietnam War was boiling. Yeah. And you knew that you were going to be drafted. Tell me that story. Well, actually, the real story is my dad looked at me one day and he said,

I don't think you're going to make it in college, boy. Really? Yeah. And I go, I think you're probably right, Daddy. I think I'll join the Army. Was he mad at you? No, no, he was real nice. So I got my buddy Jimmy Sears.

And I go, Jimmy, it's time we make a move, brother. And he went with me. And we stayed together for three years. And then about a month after we went in, eight of our other buddies, could have been six, but I think eight of them all decided, hey, that's a pretty good idea. So out of Hot Springs, you know, there's like 10 guys that volunteered to go to Vietnam. Yeah. Well, we didn't volunteer to go to Vietnam. Well, you joined the Army.

We went to Europe. Well, no. Oh, you wanted to go to Europe. We went to Europe. You know, we signed up an extra year to get schooling that we wanted, and we said, we'd like to be postal clerks. Seemed pretty safe. Yep.

Yeah. And anyway. But you were in Vietnam. Yeah. So I go to Europe as a postal clerk. Actually, I wanted in finance, but they made me go to postal. Yeah. So I'm in Europe for 15 months.

We're traveling. You know, we're seeing Europe, man. This is like a party deal going on. And all of a sudden we get this little letter that says, come on, boys. We're going to the other side of the world. To Vietnam. So how long were you in Vietnam?

A year. A year in Vietnam. Wow. Okay. I did a year in Iraq. My story is almost the same. Dropped out of college, playing a punk band, September 11th, joined the Army. You're in Iraq.

Wow. I graduated U of A when I got back. Nice. It is a lot like that. And then here you are today. And being a banker and a farmer is pretty much the same thing. I'm excited about the future looking at Gary now. I would like to hear Gary Newcomb's punk record, punk album.

Yeah. All right. Question four. Okay. Okay. What was the name of the man who vandalized the grave of Osceola in 1966? Last name, I will take last name as a correct answer. Because his family name was shame.

Oh, I remember. I remember. Oh, dang it. I was going to make a joke. Okay. We're going to start with the doctor, Misty Newcomb. I may not have gotten to that point of the podcast. Clay did talk about this an awful lot before.

And bad guy. Bad guy. Okay, bad guy. Mr. Spencer. Shriver. Oh. Okay. Okay.

Schneider. Schneider. I knew a Schneider. She is. She did. She made. Gary wrote. I remembered it, but I couldn't.

Boyan. Otis Shriver was his name. Otis Shriver. Could I get like point two for that one? Point two. Do I get anything? No. No, because he's, well, he's already going to. He got an S-H.

And if they get that I would like to get it for 60s. Next question. It's another name. The next question is another name. Let me stop for a minute, though. Otis Shriver was the reason that Osceola's grave was exigent. Right. Yes.

Because he claimed to have stolen his bones. He claimed to stole his bones and actually went to Fort Maltry, broke in there and dug down into the grave. And Misty was telling me she brought up the comedy skit about the people digging holes. Was it Nate Bargetse? Yeah. Who's like, you know, you always hear about people murdering people and digging like shallow graves. He was talking about how hard landscaping.

was his wife wanted him to plant some and he was like you know people murder someone and you hear him getting caught because they didn't bury it deep enough it's literally the most important hole you ever dig in your entire life and you're like now we're just going to call it quits basically it's like digging holes is really hard yeah and uh and and so oder striver goes to the grave and like digs like a foot down and it's like ah i think i'll just say that i got the bones and he actually took animal bones back. Oh, he did take bones. This wasn't on the podcast.

What animal? He just had some animal bones that he, you know, like, were like, this is Osceola's bones. As one does. And buried them and like went on with the whole schick. And so the National Park archaeologists were like, wait a minute, did he really? And they go to the grave and it's like, well, somebody dug. But if there's just a hole, you can't tell if they dug six inches. or if they dug the whole way down.

And so the archaeologist, which I thought it was kind of funny too, archaeologists always want to dig. Yes. Which I don't blame him. It's their job. And he was like, well, we might as well assume the whole grave and make casting of his bones and, you know, just do the whole thing. And so this guy in 1967 does it.

And guess who knew the guy? Like with friends with the lady. Careful now. Careful now. We're leading into other questions. Okay, well, we know Patricia Wickman's name. She knew the guy. She knew him.

It's pretty interesting. I'd like to point out how good the army is at digging holes. They put that casket down deep because that's about the only thing we do well. Digging? Yeah. And I didn't get a bunch of mail in Iraq, so I don't even postal clerk and ain't something either. But digging holes, we can do it. It's the second time in this recording that your hole digging has been.

That's true. It's been brought up. So you must be very good at that. Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls and building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts. Now, I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use. I'm not going to go, I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen.

But when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for. I have a great turkey hunting track record. If you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contests, right? That's who I listen to. I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps's cut, and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts.

Check out prime cuts at Phelpsgamecalls.com. I think you'll be glad you did, and you'll find out that the Steve Ronella cut is an easy-to-use cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good turn. turkey noises and getting action. Okay. Next question on, you know, going on what Clay just said.

What was the name of the National Park official who led the exhumation of Osceola's grave? One point for first name, which was mentioned several times. Now, Clay didn't get to finish a story. Second point, two points, if you can name the full name. And Dr. Wickman mentions his name. I call him so-and-so because I knew him. man she'd be good at this okay mr spencer we'll start i got nothing okay nothing i'm a too misty johnny nature john is correct one point for misty yes at that yeah what gary we

we we start with a w wrong wrong wrong she just said it starts it started bronco bronco bear writes bronco his correct name was john griffin griffin i was i was trying to triangles too. Who am I thinking of? You know when you don't give up on the play? That's what Misty Newcomb just proved right now. Okay. And for our last question, this one's a little more conceptual.

I'll be the decider. I'll be the decider. I want questions that people have to give like a speech. It's like an interpreter. And we guess. This is the one. This is the one. Okay.

A, it's actually a two-partor. Wait, the questions can't start with multiple choices. It's a two-parter. What university uses tradition? seminal image likeness to represent them. Everyone should get this one around. Okay. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Okay. Misty. Florida. Florida State. We'll take it. Okay. Spencer.

A team, even Arkansas could beat. FSU. Florida State. Florida State. Point of order, Florida is not correct. University of Florida, those, them's the gators, not the sims. That's right. Okay.

You didn't earn that, John. I got, I got, I got my point. Okay. You can't take that. The university uses Semis seminal images and likenesses to represent them. Why is this significant? Well...

Write it down. I feel like the question may be a little too broad. No, it's not too broad. There were a couple of real specific things that were mentioned by Mr. DeMayo why that was significant. Okay. Can you repeat the question? Yes. the University, the Florida State University uses images and likenesses to represent them.

Why is this significant? Okay, Gary Newcomb. It was sanctioned by the Indians themselves. They had an image that they didn't like. The Indians didn't like it. So they changed it. And they approved it. And they said, okay.

One point for Gary Newcomb, Misty. Well, I was going to say it's controversial, but it's not. in this case. It's a controversial thing to do in modern times. I mean, just like in the last like two years, five years. That's why Josh didn't ask the question. My follow-up was going to be in 2024. Why is it significant? What does your board say? Common controversy. And a teddy bear. Okay. I'll think about this one. Yes, decision-making rights, accurate, garb. I'll accept that because the tribe approached FSU. That's correct. they have input slash agency.

It was a partnership with FSU there? I don't have a specific answer. What's that? How is that not the answer? No, I'm saying that's, okay, because they're like one of the few. Okay. And Clay, what did you write? Accurate clothing, partners, not mascots.

That was the other highlight. Yeah, yeah. These are not, these are not mascots. It's the only team I believe that I know of that doesn't have an official mascot. What about the Utah Uts? Isn't that a, isn't that who Utah is? what is a you know that i'm probably in the wrong room to be a american tribe okay well hey when i

i had it had been a while since i had thought much about fsu um they're not trying to throw shade on them um they're like two and ten this year or something well no but when i when i pulled up and saw the war chant in that stadium with uh you know 80,

thousand people. So you saw that, that recording? Was that you? Did you make that recording? No. Oh, okay. No, no, no. No, I just got it off the internet. Okay. But, but, uh, but it was, it's pretty powerful, especially knowing that there actually is a little bit of, there's some meat on that bone that they partnered with the tribe. And so, you know, an actual seminal is the one who rides out. Yeah. On this Appalusa horse with a flaming spear. Well, they do their war chant. And it's pretty cool. Yeah. I mean, really, it was. It's pretty cool.

You think about like the struggle to like to not be forgotten by modern society for like native peoples. And that's a whole like it's ingenious. You know, like, because I mean it's on display your your traditions or accurate. Yeah. I think it's, I think it's awesome. Yeah. And I do think that there probably are some. I don't know that everybody likes it.

Right. I think Chandler DeMaio, who is the one who we spoke with, and he was a young guy, and I have heard not from him, not from anybody that unofficially, but some of the older generations sometimes don't like it. That's what I heard. And I mean, you know, just... I appreciate it his opinion. I mean, he literally was like giving his opinion. He's like, I actually think I appreciate the way it's represented. You know, I think if you're going to have it involving the tribe and showing a level of respect, not just exploitation, is valuable.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, Christy and I were talking this morning. She's like, what's the takeaway from the series? And I think one of the biggest takeaways is just to bring awareness to the struggles and the fight and the, the, the, the. the things that have happened over the years. I think when that history gets lost, that's when cycles are repeated.

And so I think this has been a great, a great series to just bring awareness. I knew the name Osceola. I didn't know anything about Osceola. And I think it's important to know. Yeah. You know, I think you learn, I learn a lot about American history inside of these things.

Just if you, if you listen to all the historical, Bear Greece episodes like it's not like a class on American history but you know you learn about Andrew Jackson you learn about the Indian Removal Act you learn about the kind of the context

of society and what was going on just by kind of hyper focusing on one little section and if you do that 10 times you kind of you start to build a bigger story of kind of how things happened because that's the way it's happened for me

because I mean I'm not a historian I'm really not. But, and so I'm, I'm learning all this as we go, you know. But I tell you, what I took away from Osceola is actually how little we knew about him as a person. We actually didn't know. He only lived 34 years. And there were only like two years of his life that he was in the spotlight. You know, we talked and kind of, to me, that was one of the most interesting things.

about him was that he had this like global fame yeah at a time when the world was kind of looking on to America in the frontier and Native Americans and he was for for like two years before he died he had this global fame which I mean he was in prison wasn't he well he was in prison for the last three months of those two years okay you know and so he would have had very little probably understanding of his own his own recognition Right. And that also probably wouldn't have been something that he would have been that concerned about. Like, we did talk about how, you know, he was known to kind of have an ego. Like, that was something that, a theme that you see, that, you know, he was just, he had some interest in being known for something.

But that was, like, not his goal, you know. But you don't, you don't really ever see, you don't ever, there's no transcripts of big speeches. that he did. There's so much was lost. But anyway, what stood out to you, Spence? Anything, anything from the whole series? Yeah, the whole series, it's just you had a quote at the, I think it was the last one where you, you know, you said with Solomon that there's nothing new under the sun.

And you talked about like the abortion thing with the woman there. And even just like listening to it, you see stuff like, even now, like we're talking. talking about not to be political, but the military deport, you know, potentially rounding up a large section of the population. And that's what I thought about. I thought about, and I'm not passing judgment either way, but, you know, it's like every couple hundred years, it just seems like with the Japanese, with the Native Americans. And then, you know, even just stuff with, like, in the, what, 1830 old AJ was like, all the treaties are, we're not doing them anymore. Yeah. And like as a veteran who got kind of knocked around in Iraq, like there's a lot of scuttlebutt about, you know, canceling a lot of the VA stuff. And, you know, people are like, oh, the government would never do that. And then I'm listening to this series. And it's like, like that, I'm stepping my fingers. But it's like, and it's just gone. And so I don't know. I just, you know, that's a story of those that don't know the past are destined to repeat it. And I think there's just a lot of value when you take these dives.

like with Osceola, with Tacoma, with Daniel Boone, or David Crockett, maybe you did them both. You know, like, I just, I think we learn a lot about ourselves and our culture, in our society, and I just think it's incredibly valuable. Yeah. You know, I think governments are inherently interested in their best interests. Yeah, that's essentially boils down every. decision good and bad that's been made by governments is that they're they're working in their own self-interest which is it's supposed to be in the interest of the people but then it's like well can't be an interest of all people it's got to be interest of maybe the majority of people

but i mean i don't know it's just like injustice and even like that interplay like you talked about what you're talking about earlier about giving these little peaks and how people were like the culture was pro-Oceola you know like yeah people saw him as a hero yeah you know at the same time they were looking to to stop what he did and um i don't know so even that like interplay between culture and government it's it doesn't necessarily always line up in our society you know yeah and that's interesting there's yeah you could have podcasts upon podcasts like you said earlier about about this man and it's legit you know yeah oceola bear what's something it out to you. Just like whole

takeaway. The whole series. Yeah, I think the kind of what both of you guys have said, but just it kind of opened my eyes to a lot of history that I would have never known. It also... They didn't teach you that in school. They didn't, boy. Well, but you heard some like you said, some like familiar names

that you would have learned, you know, Andrew Jackson and... You would have learned in his school. But it was kind of interesting to see that side of it. Also, It kind of, at least for me, removed a lot of pre-conceived kind of stereotypes of like Native Americans and stuff. Like it just kind of tore down a lot of things that you, that are just kind of like almost built into the, I don't know, the way that, the cultural way that we would see Native Americans just like in like movies and stuff. You kind of have this image.

But this definitely like tore it down and kind of put them. on a more, you know, realistic level. Yeah. And then overall, I thought the story was like a very, it was a, it was a bare grease story, you know, like there were, there were so many different aspects to it. And like you said at the beginning of the most recent podcast, sometimes the reality is, you know,

I can't remember exactly what he said, but it's better than the myth. Yeah. And it was like, you use bear grease, lie soap to wash that off. Right. But, like, it was wild. Like, even in this last episode, like, Osiola's been dead for, like, how many years? Like, 100 years, and there's still stuff going on, and there's still twists and turns in the story. Yeah.

So, yeah, it was overall a great series. We, to ask a specific question about the child in the grave with Osceola. What did you think about that, Dad? I couldn't even relate to it. I mean, it's where this kid come from. Yeah. Maybe I thought, well, maybe I missed something, you know, did I say something I didn't hear? I don't know.

I just was like. What about the first reader? I'm sitting in the back of the class thinking about what I'm going to do at recess, you know? And then all of a sudden there's a kid down there. All of a sudden there's a test. And I'm going, I don't know. I mean, that's the way it hit anybody that learns the story. It's like they're digging down.

to check out Osceola, to confirm that he was in fact headless. You know, it wouldn't have been too surprising for them to get down there and learn that his head was there and that the whole head thing was just a myth. Because before there was, you know, I mean, the world before video documentation,

audio documentation, typewriters, you know, the ability to really document stuff. I mean, the world was just full of, you didn't know if something, something was true or not. Yeah. And so, you know, but when they got down there, they actually confirmed that he did not have a head.

And then, you know, and the way his body was pushed up way to the front of the grave that he had been dropped in there. And then, but I guess the way, we have, I guess we really have most of the information that there is. But with the way the information was presented, Josh, what do you think? You heard me say that I didn't. It was the only time, and it's not like I'm disagreeing with Dr. Wickman, but she was very convinced knowing, and I mean, golly, she's got more right to have an opinion than I do. But just in general, I didn't feel like it was really fair to just be like a, you know, a mother killed her child and buried it. It's just like, wait a minute, we just don't have enough data to say that.

I mean, maybe the child got sick. Maybe it was a great coincidence if there is such a thing. And the child died of pneumonia within hours of Osceola. I don't know. What do you think? Gosh, I don't know. I mean, that's a tough one because there doesn't seem a logical reason for any of it. Right.

You know what I mean? So it's like there's so many wild cards at play there that you just, it's hard to even. I mean, it would be speculation. You know, any possible scenario would be speculation. I just thought of something. Why couldn't they do DNA announce? They could, but they'd have to exhum him again. They couldn't in the 60s.

Unless they had DNA from when they exempt him. Because I had the same thought. I was like, why don't they just do DNA? But they wouldn't have known to do DNA testing at that point in 1967. Do you think that maybe we know more than everyone else? It's like a cold case mystery. I mean, this could be your next. branch of the bearerese podcast

We're going back down Unsolved mysteries Podcast edition What do you think? I know the answer It was a graveyard You know we've got a graveyard I live in a subdivision

We got a graveyard That when y'all were little kids We walked over and had the limbs of a tree Or you know pulled together And then out in the woods I think I took you to another grave I'm just out hunting

I'm looking here at the cemetery Well you know Those two Stones gets moved. You know, they buried him, and there was a little girl next to him, and they didn't know what until 1967. I just discovered it, and I hate to bring this topic back up for a third time. We're going to talk about the vine again? Nope, for a third time in this podcast.

Digging a hole is hard. If you've already got a hole. Good point. Yeah. If you've already got a hole, might as well utilize it. Yeah, if the dirt was loose. That's probably true. It's a lot easier to do.

Well, I think what you're saying, Dad, makes a lot of sense. sense and it's going to go to this. It's like, what if it was complete coincidence that they just dug a straight wall grave that just happened to be right next to where they buried a little kid? I think, though, why, to me, I think you can miss something if you don't consider the fact that a new mother's situation is so terrible that she saw it as a kindness. sure because like when it talked about Osceola and I'm probably saying that wrong but you look at that Clay's got a picture there and it's this real proud man he was covered in lice because like of the way

he was confined I mean this is you know like when you when you talked about just culturally like they talked about the tree on this piece of property and all that and now he's confined in a cell like where he can't he can't experience like his whole life and for that woman their whole society their whole everything, even more so than us. Like, and the best case journey is that those, that child would have went on something that riding our own neck of the woods is called the Trail of Tears. Yeah. Like, I mean, there was, they were facing horrific.

And, and I don't know, I think it takes some of the sting out that, that maybe needs to be there to consider why that, and other reasons why that could, could have been the grave. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's perfectly plausible that it was a seminal child that could have been, you know, infanticide. Because you said other societies. I know Greek and Romans did that. Oh, I think it's fairly common that in hunter-gatherer, ancient hunter-gatherer societies that, you know, infanticide was common.

So it's like, it would be in the playbook, you know. But so I'm not discounting that. A bit of a downer. I'm not discounting it even a little bit. But I also think, I hadn't thought of that, Dad. Maybe it's just, maybe they just dug a hole and it just happened to be right beside a little infant. And would you have put a big old headstone

and done a big old thing for an infant? Maybe not. I mean, maybe it just would have been like, man, the child, you know, maybe it was dead when it was born. And they had to bury it. And it was unmarked. marked. Maybe it's not connected to Osceola at all.

At all. I think a lot more important issue is that his head was in a jar in the picture window of a store. Yeah. I mean, can you imagine that? Was it ever reburied, like in return? No. Well, I mean, that was the whole. We don't know where it's at.

You know, that was still missing. That was a big part of episode three is that it's still gone. It's, and Dr. Patricia Wickman. thinks it's still out there. I mean, what kind of society would want to look at a head in front of Dillers' department store? That's what I'm saying. Hey, the 1800s, the 1800s were wild.

Yeah. Pretty wild. And they would look at us and say the exact same thing. They would look at some of the brutality of some of the stuff going on today and be like, golly. I bet the dealers had a lot of buckskin stuff in the store back then. Yeah, Dealerge. Yeah.

Probably did. Down a little rock. It's going to start it. Well, Misty, do you have any thoughts on the child? No, I'll just say for the whole series, and kind of to Spence's point as well, and the whole series,

I think it was when we were, I'm 90% sure when we interviewed Chief Ben Barnes for the to come to interview. He said, don't talk about us unless you talk with us. That was a quote that their tribe had and that they didn't want everyone else to tell their story. They wanted to be included in telling their story. And I think every time you do one of these series,

it does go to show, like, when we interpret history, we are interpreting it through a very narrow lens of the time on earth that we were born, where we were raised, the cultural norms of our time. And you really, you can't do that. You've got to, and I think it... And expect any level of accuracy. Yeah, and it illuminated, yeah, a whole different way of thinking about things, looking at situations.

And I think on both ends, both sides of this thing, it, it, it, there would be just like, why would you have a head in a store? That's not something that I would have, that to me that that person is brutal and they are terrible. And anyone that would do that. But the assumption would be if you put it in the store, it's because that's a, not a crazy thing to do. at that time. That's not quite as insane as it seems to us now. But I think it also does, you interpret the seminal people and their story differently. And I think, again, Patricia Wickman, best interview you've ever done. And she, by living among them and, I mean, she really, I felt like Gayt did justice to their story and to their perspective. And I think it

added value to all of our, all of our lens. One of the things I liked about her, too, is that she probably knew the history better than any one individual in the tribe. But at the same time, she never tried to assimilate into them. Like, she always knew, like, this is their history, not my history, and just held it very honorably. And that was one of the things that I really liked about the way that she communicated about the Seminoles, is that she was, she was telling her story, but it's not like she had weaseled her way into the tribe, and she was... You know, it was real clear to me that the thing she was probably most proud of in her career, at least, was that she lived on that reservation with those people.

Like, she really loved those people, you know. That was very clear. I liked her because she was, like, protective of the truth. Yes. You know, like, no matter which way it cut. Yeah. She's just like, no, this is this is how they would have been thinking then. Yeah.

And sometimes it surprised you either way. You know, and it just, I really appreciated just her, her tenacity for veracity. Ooh. Tenacity for veracity. That's a slogan. Wow, wow, wow. Put that on a Tirtie shirt here. Tenacity, bear grease, tenacity for veracity.

Well, hey, it's been, it's been a great conversation. Thanks for, thanks for coming up. Dad and Misty and Spence and everybody. Anything we're supposed to talk about, Josh? I don't think so. I think we covered it. We covered it all. Yep.

Well, I'm always a little bit sad when we move on from a character. Yep. Something that happens pretty often is that people hear the episodes and start doing research or they know something and they contact me. And they're like, hey, man, you got to do this. You got to come talk to this guy. And it's always kind of sad because it's like, for doing what we do, you kind of have to, like, move on.

Right. Like, I'm already researching stuff that's going to come out. And I don't want to say I'm done with these guys because I feel like they kind of stay with me. Right. But anyway, Osceola. Heck of a guy. We salute you.

Toast Osceola. Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls in building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called Prime Cuts. Now, I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use. I'm not going to go, I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen. But when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for. I have a great turkey hunting track record.

If you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contest. right? That's who I listen to. I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps' cut and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts. Check out Prime Cuts at Phelpsgamecalls.com.

I think you'll be glad you did and you'll find out that the Steve Rinella cut is an easy-to-use cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good turkey noises and getting action. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.