Bear Grease - Ep. 300: Render - Alone Winner, Clay Hayes

Episode Date: February 26, 2025

On this episode of the Bear Grease Render, host Clay Newcomb along with Bear Newcomb and Josh “Landbridge” Spielmaker are joined by professional bowyer, hunter, and Alone season 8 winner Clay Hayes. Clay shares his experience surviving in the back country of British Columbia for 74 days and the highs and lows of what it took to be the last man standing in this very real challenge. He also covers some of the behind the scenes backstory that you wouldn't see in the show, talks about making bows, tanning animal hides, and joins the rest of the crew on a discussion of the Clovis people from last weeks Bear Grease Podcast - "The Mystery of Clovis." If you have comments on the show, send us a note to [e-mail] Connect with Clay and MeatEater Clay on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, and Youtube Clips MeatEater Podcast Network on YouTube Shop Bear Grease MerchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. First Lights fieldware collection is made for the work that happens long before opening day and continues when the season ends. Products built for early mornings, full days and real use. Hard wearing where they need to be versatile where it matters. No shortcuts. Just gear designed for the work that earns the season.

Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new field. Worldware Gear at firstlight.com. My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called the Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast. Presented by FHF Gear, American Made, Purpose Built, Hunting and Fishing Gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. All right, boys, we've got a lot of ground covered today.

And this is the main ground we have to cover is Clay Hayes is here with us. I'm a big deal. I'm here. Josh Clay Hayes is the man on the internet for bow building, quite a bit of bushcraft stuff, making Flint locks. You live in Idaho. and we're going to get into this, but like, this will be the conversation that we have that kind of like finalized the podcast, but Clay was the winner of a loan, the show alone. That's awesome.

In 20, 23? 22. 2020 is when it was when we were out there. Oh, really? Right in the middle of COVID, yeah. Has it been that long? Yeah. So 2020.

Hard to believe. Yeah. So that's like the. the meat on the bone. But before we get there, no, thanks for coming, man.

We've got a Josh Spillmaker with us. Here. Bear John Newcomb. Here. So there's two things I want to talk about. I want to talk about a recent social media posts that I made about what, water witching, using witching sticks.

Hey, witchcraft. I got some opinions on that. Great. Listen, I am going to just, I'm very humbly going to just give my full appeal for what it is, how I've used it, and what I have seen with my own eyes for decades. And if anybody has a problem with that, then I don't know what to tell them. But, so we're going to talk about that. I hope we're ready for this.

It's okay to disagree. We don't have to not be friends. That's right. That's right. I just don't know what to tell you. It's just like, okay, so we're going to talk about that. And then we're going to talk about the film that Bear and I were on. I've been under the microscope this week.

Really? From the water witching post. And then on the YouTube video, everybody was talking about how, like the climax, of the film is when this bear pops out. Right. And maybe that's what we should talk about right now. Maybe. There's like 300 comments on the most recent Montana Black Bear video.

And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it was such a great hunt. We, we ended up killing a big bear. But there's this moment when Bear John sees a bear and we both go up. The bear's coming around the road. Right. And we're trying to get bear. The shot, bear, pull your mic up. Nope, nope, nope.

Up like this. Like that. Yes. Clay, your deal's about to pop off. Oh, there you go. Rookies, rookies. And basically, the bear is like at 40 yards, and bear's using a 300 wind mag.

And I am pleading with him to shoot the bear after we wait to see that it's not a soud, doesn't have cubs. It could have been a soud. It didn't have cubs. And basically the bear turns, and as it's turning, I'm saying, shoot, shoot, shoot.

And when the bear fully turns and is running away, I'm still, it's like, I'm still in the momentum of a father just going, shoot, shoot, shoot. So I actually do say, shoot, 100% while the bear is like running down the road. And so like half of the comments are just like...

Learn some ethics, man. I used to respect Clay Newcomb. I'm serious, man. And then they're like, but Bear Nukem, what a pillar of a man, which is true. Unfriend. Well, it's true. I mean, Bear massively made the right decision and did the right thing, even with the pressure of a dad, Clay, you know how, would know how, you know the feeling.

You have kids. Yeah. And it's hard to, you know, get an accurate understanding of what was going on in that moment unless you're there. Right. Yeah. Yeah. What we could see and what the camera saw.

But anyway, Bear, what would you, what do you say about it all? Yeah. I mean, I feel like it was, I feel like I did have a shot, really. Like, I don't think the camera quite captured everything because at one point, the bear was sticking its head up. And I mean, I just had a perfect shot, just like right at the kind of upper part of its chest. And that was when I should have shot it. But there was just like brush in front of it.

Did you intentionally hesitate? Well, it was like a combination of a lot of factors, I think. I think it was like my first time to ever like be in front of the cameras, which was just like in the back of my mind. Right. There was brush in front of it, which was no big issue except like I really don't hunt with a gun all that much. Right. And I was just like, in my mind. mind that was just like you don't shoot through the brush right and then it was like we just like just

seen this bear and I was like there was like the smallest little thought in the back of my head like there's still a part of that hill slope you couldn't see that like yeah there could still be cubs or something which I mean there weren't like we kind of knew it but it was like in that like split second that was like part of the my thinking process and I think and then I pretty much just kind of like like froze like with all those like thoughts kind of like colliding I just like totally froze yeah and so you know that's why I didn't shoot it turning so I didn't have a shot but uh yeah you know like if I were to do it again I would probably just take that next shot but well I mean what you're supposed to do when you're in the heat of the moment and lots of stuff is coming in and there's any negative variable

Like, you're supposed to wait. So, I mean, like, you made 100%. When I was watching him, I had that same thought. I was like, Bear made the right move. Yeah. You could have, I mean, you could have made the other decision and probably got the bear, but, man, in those cases, better safe than sorry. Yeah.

Especially under the scrutiny of a camera. Yeah, that would have been bad to have, like, made a bad shot on it or something. Yeah. well it it was a in the moment it felt a lot more existential than it was i mean like we'd been it was the six day yeah i think that was the other part of it that the camera couldn't quite capture was like the desperation to kill a bear yeah yeah and i mean and it's not it's it's funny it's it's not that we were i mean it's just such a massive expedition to go up there like 30 hours with your mules like yeah ends up being a 10 day trip and you know i mean

you're going up there to kill a bear and uh and and and i felt like this was our one opportunity you know and uh and so anyway but bear was the hero though of the in in the comments i mean everybody was taking this thanks for salvaging the film fair it's a good job bear good job Anything else you want to say about that? Oh, oh, I know what. Tell about how we split up because you saw the bear from a long ways away. Yeah, basically we split up.

Like after that opportunity, we split up went in different ways. And I saw, like, the bear you ended up killing. I spotted it. Like, it was three quarters of a mile from where I was at. And so we, like, booked it. around the rim of this mountain to get over to it.

And it was about a mile and a half, like a horseshoe to where it was. And we kind of like came to where we last saw it and started like sneaking down the road, just thinking that any minute we were just going to like see it around the corner. I mean like literally the whole time once we got there, like I just knew we were just about to see it. My heart was pounding. And then the road forked and the bear like literally there was a fresh pile of scat

like right at the fork. that sounds like if there was a children's book about bear hunting that would be in it yeah yeah following bear scat oh no which way did he go and it you know so I started out going right and on the right fork it just like went over the top of those mountain and just turned into just like a whole another area like it just opened up into and it was snow there was snow on the ground up there and no no vegetation yeah but it well there wasn't snow on the ground but But there was no vegetation.

There was a bank of snow that's in the film. Oh, maybe there was. I don't remember. But I remember going up that right and getting up to the top of that. And it just like opened up into just like a ocean of just new territory that if he went down there, like he was just gone. And then I went to the left and it like immediately dead ended. And so I was like, well, maybe he went down on the lower road. Went down to the lower road, which was only like 100 yards from the other road that we were just on.

and didn't see him. So I was just like, whenever I was thinking about it, I was like, okay, the bear had to have just gone on that right fork and just disappeared into,

like the whole world. So when we met back up together, yeah, I was like, there's no way, we're going to kill that bear. He's gone. And they didn't get that part on camera,

but we met, and you were telling me I need to go back in there during prime time. So it's like, it's like two hours left of daylight, and he's seen this bear like an hour before.

and he was telling me he was going to go like a totally different direction and I was like yeah I was going to go try to find and I was like man you got to go back in where you saw that bear I mean that bear is in there and I'll let you finish the story yeah and so pretty much I was just certain that the bear was like gone lost to the wind and that I could maybe go get back on either that other bear right or find a new bear and so I went that way. And so what did I say, Josh? Go go.

Is he left on his own free will and by me begging him to go back in there? As I said, well, I'm going back in there. Yep. And then I went back in there and killed the bear, like right where he was. That bear had to have been just like bedded down. I mean. Yeah, he had to have been close because where you shot him, there's actually a clip in the film. If you pay attention to the film, I mean walking down this little drainage.

and it was exactly where you shot him. Well, what's funny about the film? And again, this is me saying I've been under the scrutiny of the world this week. I had a friend say he was watching the film with his family. And he said, me and Bear split up and Bear goes back the other way. And all of a sudden, the way they edited it, it's Bear walking. He's going to look for Bear. You know, like day six, getting dark.

I was not walking like that, though. And then it shifts to me. And it's just like, over the shoulder, there's a bear. And you just see a person's arm and camouflage in a gun and shoot the bear. You see the bear go down. And then the camera turns, and it's me, not bear. And he said his whole family went, what? and he said his little kids were like what

what happened to bear what that's bear's bear and they were they were upset with me for shooting bears bear's bear that's fun and then so but the but we didn't get on the film of like you know you know he me trying to get him to go back right but no so so I'm glad we got that taken care of yep and uh no

Okay, so here's the deal. The term water witching is probably not the best descriptor. I've heard it called dowsing, water witching, or divining rods. I was taught, now this is bizarre, but I was taught that divining rods and dowsing were actually like purposeful engagement with the spirit realm to get information about like what you were doing. And so my dad was always like... So the one word that didn't associate with that was witching? Exactly. But as a kid, I remember my dad being like, now dowsing and divining rods, now that's witchcraft.

But water witching is okay. Clay, have you ever done water witching? I don't recall if I've ever messed with them before, but I've seen folks do it. But they probably had no idea what they were doing either. I mean, with coat hangers. Okay. What implement do you use? Oh, coat hangers.

I've done it. Like, we had a friend who had a water leak at his house, and we could not find it. And my friend's expense, we know, he said, well, let's witch it. And I was like, what are you talking about? and he gets coat hangers. And we know the general location of where the water line is. And so we start crossing it. And I swear to you, where he divined it was exactly where the water leak was.

And I didn't believe it. So I tried it. And they move. They move. I can't, it's unexplainable. Is there any science? Listen, listen, okay, here's the deal. There are 300 comments on the post that I made.

I would say 80% of them are people with stories like that. That's just like, I don't understand it, but it works. And then there are multiple comments of guys that are, you know, come across as intelligent and informed and go, there's no academic research on this. This is a pseudoscience. It's not real. I'll tell you.

And so this goes back to the naming mechanism that Gary Newcomb was comfortable with was the reason that witching sticks were okay and had nothing to do with like the dark realm giving you information about the earth was because they work like gravity. I mean, like they just work. I could do it right now. And I could, I could, you take two, you take a metal coat hanger and straighten it out. take the last six inches and bend it into a 90. And you hold it and you walk loosely. You hold it real loosely. Very loosely.

And it will find all kind of stuff. The only way that I can describe it is that it finds anomalies in the ground. That's like that's not, nobody ever said that to me. That's just what it does. Like if you walk over your dog, it does like this. If I walk over. I've never wished for a dog. I walked over you, it would do that.

If you walk over a water line, a gas line, it'll do that. I've only ever done it for water, so I can't confirm. And the reason it works over a grave is because there's metal, there's a coffin, there's hollow space, there's something in the ground. I don't know why it works over a grave, but it does. Man, it's an action.

Oh, it's, yeah. I mean, it predates. It predates, it predates, it could have been doing that. It predates, Coat hangers, by the way. Pre-dates coat hangers. Whoa.

Well, so, but I would like to, I would like to, here's my thing about it, is that somebody told me, they said, it's subconscious and you're moving the rods without knowing it with your hands. I did it with my eyes closed. And every person that did that, I asked them, I said, have you ever done it before? because that is absolutely not. I completely reject that because you're not moving them with your hands. They are moving on their own. I had a guy say,

Clay, it's the same thing as a Ouija board, which I don't even say the name Ouija board. That's like stuff I don't want to mess with. Exactly. But as I understand a Ouija board, you actually consciously like engage with the spirit. or something. The only spirit realm I'm engaging with is God and Jesus.

That's all, that's all, that's all guys I'm talking to. Yep. And this guy was like, it's no different than a Ouija board. And I'm like, I reject that too because I, I don't think darkness cares about where my gas line is. It might. Or my dog.

And so all I'm saying humbly is I have, I do not understand. it, but I know that it works. And it's not an exact science. I mean, like, if you put me... I wonder if there's been any studies, don't. There have been. But this was the most interesting thing. If you would go back and read all those comments,

there's a lot of... This guy says, okay, his name's Brandon. He says, I just saw your witch-and-stick video. I'm in Southeast Texas and used to work in oil and gas. We use them to find lines as last resort when nothing else would work. From what I was told, the rods will close towards each other when there is a break in the Earth's natural magnetic field. I've used them a lot, and there's a company that actually makes them for line locating. It's a plastic handle with a collapsible rod that goes inside of it.

I've got one in my work truck, and I'll send you pictures of it. And he did. He sent me pictures of his commercial witchen sticks that his oil. oil and gas company provides for him. That's crazy. I mean, so again, when I made the video, I was like, I knew that it would stir up some. Yeah. I had a guy like private message me that was just like, Clay, I really respect you.

And as a friend, I want to just tell you. I basically, he was like, you're an idiot. He said, this is a pseudosite. Like, he couldn't believe that I, and I just wrote back and I said, hey, man, I hear you. I understand. I said, but it just works so dang good. And I just kind of fist bumped him, you know, just like, I don't know what to say.

It works. It does. Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls in building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts. Now, I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use. I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen. But when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for.

I have a great turkey hunting track record. If you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contests, right? That's who I listen to. I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps's cut, and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts. Check out Prime Cuts at Felps. Game Calls.com. I think you'll be glad you did,

and you'll find out that the Steve Rinella cut is an easy-to-use cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good turkey noises and getting action. I'm trying to find a video here. I saw a post probably on Instagram a little while back.

I think I've got it here. It's a YouTube clip of Oprah way back in the day, and she's holding this she's holding this string. She's got some sort of psychologist or something. She's holding this string. And dangling from the string is a little nut or something, a piece of metal.

And she's holding it as still as she can. It's still. And the guy tells her this, imagine this nut swinging in a circle. And it starts swinging in a circle. And she's holding it as still as she can. And so subconsciously, she's, introducing minute movements into this, which is causing this. And he can tell her, imagine it moving back and forth, and it does all of these things.

So you think it's a, you think it's pseudoscience? I mean. Well, I think finding water is pseudoscience. That's my other thing. So you think you think it's just an anomaly? I can't, I cannot go find water. Like there are lots of people in the Ozarks and all over the country that they would, especially back in the day, would hire a water, some of that would water which a well. Yeah.

So if you had a big piece of property, like where is there the shallowest water, you would go get this person and they would find you water. I don't call me when you need your well drilled. Call me when you need to find your water line. Got it. period. So, but tell me, what do you think, though? Like, what, what do you get from that? I mean, I don't have an experience with it, so I'm talking from just, you know, the

outside looking in. But it sure seems to me like the same things happening with what was happening with Oprah Winfrey when this thing was moving around. So she was, they, even though you, even though you say, you know, you can't, like, I am not moving these rods. Well, she wasn't moving that, that stretch. but she was. Interesting.

Well, when we get done with this, we should make some... We'll go do it. And I'll see if you can find my sewer line over there. All right. You can find septic tank, because he doesn't know where anything is. Make a believer out of me.

And just, we'll see. Do it. No, I... I don't want to argue with anybody. I just am like, this has worked for me. Yeah. So, now that we got that out of the way, that's a real relief.

So Clay has been here. What is this, Clay? That's a gator hide. That you tanned. Yeah. How did you tan that? Well, there's a little bit of a process to it. Like most hides, you've got to de-hair them.

If you're going to make leather, well, you've got to de-scale those. They have a- Oh, they do have an actual scale that comes along. It's not like a fish scale. It's like a, well, they are kind of like fish scales, I guess. But there's indefinitely an outer layer to those hides. Like a snake kind of has. Yeah, kind of like that.

But you would soak that hot. You flesh it first, and I flesh that with a pressure washer. Okay. That's the easiest way to do gator. Fleshed it and then soaked it in a five-gallon bucket with lime and just pulverized limestone. and that's an alkaline thing that makes the hide swell up and it loosens if you did if you did a piece if you did a deer hide it'd cause the hair to loosen you just wipe it off. Oh nice. And with that it causes the scales loosen.

You can just, again, just wipe them off. Now is that his belly right there? That's his belly, yep. And that's the way that, you know, most, unless you're going to do it for a mound or something, you do what they call, I think, hornback or something like that. You'd have those plates on the back. But if you're going to make leather, that's what you do. Did you harvest that gator? Yeah, those came from Louisiana.

We got those several years ago. I've got a friend down there. It's got some property down south of New Orleans. But then that's just done with nothing but oak bark. Take a bunch of oak bark. Yep. And steep it in hot water, and it draws those tannins out. Throw that thing right in there.

And the hide soaks up the tannins. and you have to go through several changes of water, you know, changes of that solution. But eventually it soaks up as much as it's going to soak up. You put fresh bark in it each time? Yeah. So the way I do it is I've got a keg, like a stainless steel keg, cut the top out of it, and it makes a big nice brew pot or, you know, fill it up with bark, fill it up with water and heat it up until it's simmering and then just cut the heat and just let it simmer.

or let it sit there and steep. You're basically making tea. And put that into a non-reactive container, either plastic or stainless or something like that, and soak your hide in it. And it takes for something that thick, it'll take, you know, a month, six weeks. But you're having to, like,

it'll soak up all the tannins and the color of the liquid changes. It'll be like a dark red tea color, like a nice, pretty color to start with. and then as that soaks it up, it just kind of turns like a pale, like a yellow color. And then toss that out, put more teat,

more liquid in there. So having that in there for six weeks doesn't break that leather down? No, the tannins are preservative. And that's one of the reasons. Like when they, that's why they started putting hops in beer,

is my understanding, is because tops are up, they have tannins in them. And that's that bitterness. And that's, it was a preservative back before, you know, when they're just putting in wooden kegs. Hmm.

Interesting. So is that tan as good as a commercial tan like you might get from a Texas dermatist? Yeah. Is it really? Yeah. So it'll last a lifetime. Yeah, you could take that hide right there, dig a hole in your yard and bury it, come back three years later, and it still be there. Hmm.

Really? Hmm. That is cool. That make a nice pair of boots. Have you ever backed a bow with gator skin? I haven't, but I've thought about it. I've thought about it. I've thought about, I think the sides of the tail, you know, if you're on a small gator,

like if he had a tail that was maybe two feet long or something like that, I think that'd be cool. Bear, show us your bow. So this is one I've been working on. I'm going to use it as a bow fishing bow, but it's been turning out pretty good so far. So I'll probably also use it as a hunting bow. But I've got sturgeon skins on the back of this one. That is cool, man. Yeah.

I got them from a guy in North Carolina who, I guess he lives next to like a sturgeon farm. These are like farm sturgeon, not like wild sturgeon. But yeah, it's pretty cool. Is that the finished? Is that the way it's going to be? I mean, that's finished. You put something on it. I've got to put something on it and then kind of just do some finish work.

It feels like sandpaper when you run your hand down that way. Yeah, I need to. It is such a weird. Did you feel that? It's like a weird texture to it. it. It's like a cat's tongue. Yeah.

Why did you ever touch a cat's tongue? Well, you know, cat's tongue has barbs on it. No, I didn't know that, Josh. How many cats have you killed? Killed a ton of cats. Well, what? Mountain lion.

A mountain lion. Bobcats. Yeah, not house cats. Yeah, not house cats. Let's just clarify. And I didn't stick my finger in their mouth either. That's weirder in witching sticks. True.

That's a cool bow. I like it. So that's going to be your bow fishing bow. Yeah, but I'll probably also. The way I want to design, I've kind of got an idea in mind right now where I can just like basically bolt on like a bow fishing reel and then just take it off and it'll be a hunting bow. I have a video on my YouTube channel that shows you how to make a bow fishing reel

that fits on those bows really nicely. Really? Because man, I have a bean can and a hacksaw blade. I need to check that out. You can make one in 10 minutes. Really? And they worked really good. Huh.

There you go. Now, did you, you did not make a bow fishing rig on the alone show. You made a fishing reel. Yeah. Yeah. That was, but I'd made one, I'd made one of those, or made a couple of them actually before I went out there. That was part of my, I knew I was going to do that. Yeah.

That was pretty incredible. He made, do you remember that bear? Yeah. I don't really even remember what it was like, but you were able to take with you a spool of fishing line. Yeah. And then you carved a reel out of wood, like a functional fishing reel.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it was made, like it would cast like an open-faced spinning reel. So I had two pegs, one sticking straight out front and one sticking to the side. So that reel, I would stick it on there and I had eyelets made out of a snare wire and I could, I mean, it cast just like a spinning rod. Yeah. And I couldn't reel it like that. So I'd take it off and stick it on that peg on the side and then I could reel it.

So it was like a, they make one, there's a, there's an, there's a, I can't remember what they're called. But there's a, I think there's a reel that's out of Australia or New Zealand that flips like that. and I can't remember what they're called. Oh, like a commercial reel. Yeah, they're available. Clay, I haven't seen the season that you were on yet. How long did you stay out? Well, hold on.

Oh, whoa, whoa, sorry. I'm way down the road. This is like, we need to, we need, before we release that information, which the world knows already how long he stayed. But we're going to, that's like the meat on the bone. Okay. So that, the question was like, I'm sorry, Gosh. We have to redact it. We would like to redact that question. That's like, that's like

your, your kid reaching up and grabbing like the choice piece of meat and like trying to chomp into it before they even said the prayer. But who likes the, who doesn't like the choice meat? Yeah, you were after the choice meet. Yep. Clay. How long were you out there? No, no, no. Give it, give a spiel about just like what is alone. I mean, I think everybody would know, but maybe some people wouldn't. And it's like, yeah, I mean, and how did you get involved in it? So alone is a TV show that,

I think they're only like 13th season or something like that now. It's been going on for a pretty good while. And the premise is that there's 10 people and you get to choose 10 items from a list. You can't just bring whatever you want. There's a very specific list that you get to choose from. Very basic survival items. An axe, a saw, a pot, stuff like that.

Very basic stuff. A bow. A bow and arrow counts as one item. Yeah. If you want to take that. And they take these 10 people and they take them far out into the wilderness and drop them off alone in 10 different places. And basically it's the last person standing. wins. The last person out there wins.

It's, I mean, it's having gone through that, like, having gone through that and having been associated with other television shows in a variety of capacities, that's, like, people ask, and, you know, you always run into skepticism, like, ah, they're just, you know, whatever. It's legit. Like, when they drop you off, you're on your own. They do not, There's no catered meals. It's all self-filmed, right? It's all self-filmed. There's no camera guys out there with you.

You are literally alone to make a living with whatever 10 items you brought. They do come back and check on you. Make sure you're not dead or got your leg chewed off. And you have the ability, you have a satellite communicator. So if you ever want to leave, you just tell them, come and get me. I'm done. Right. And they'll come and get you.

And that's how that, that's how you end up with one person. Yeah. People tap out. Or they're removed because of either malnutrition or some health issue. And so you were on, it actually took place in 2020. And you were in British Columbia. Yeah. Was it like just like national forests or?

Crown land in Columbia? It's native ground. And that's usually, I think, what they do because they can, I don't know all the reasons, but I think they have some leeway with hunting and fishing regulations on those grounds. Okay. So are you bound by hunting and fishing regulations? Yes, unfortunately. So what were the parameters when you were there?

You could kill a deer. You could kill a black bear. No bears. No bears? I still don't understand that. You couldn't kill a black bear. You got one deer. One deer.

Yeah, you had permission to kill one deer. And you think, you know, I got comments like, oh, when, you know, you kill that deer, you're set. But I guarantee any one person in this room could eat an entire deer in three weeks. Done. All gone. If you're eating nothing but that deer. Yeah. And so, you know, that's not enough.

to sustain a grown man for months at a time. Yeah. And so even though I did end up killing a deer, but I had to ration it really sparsely. Like I was eating very, very little. I'd like to know how many calories I was eating each day, but it was not a lot. Yeah.

So you went into alone, I remember you were trying to gain weight. Mm-hmm. So what did you weigh going in? 180 pounds. Which was heavy for you. That's way heavy. You've probably never been that heavy.

I'd never been. I don't think I'd ever been over 165. So you packed on 20 pounds. Yeah. And just like just eating junk food. I'm putting words in your mouth. Is that what you did? No.

I mean, Liz did it all. I couldn't have done that without her. She was cooking. Like I was eating like a loaded baked potato every day and just eating so much that I was just constant. I was never not uncomfortably full, just like stuffed. I hated it.

But that's what I had to do. So how long did you do that? How long did it take you to gain that weight? Probably five months. I started. What's wild is that like 80% of men in this country would not have that problem at all. These two guys would bear and clay.

I could put on 20 pounds. Yeah. Pretty quick. Yeah. But I started, like, I started gaining weight. I knew it was going to be difficult. I started trying to gain weight before I ever even knew that I was going to be on the show. Really?

Yeah. Just when it was like a possibility. Yeah. From the first contact with the casting director, I was like, there's pretty good chance I'm going to be on this thing. So I started trying to gain weight, and it was not an easy thing to do. Is this something that you applied for? You can apply for it, but I was actually recommended by a former participant. And they contacted me.

But there's other folks like Jordan Jonas, he put in, he was the winner of season six, I think. he put in his application along with 40,000 other people or however many. I mean, that's a bunch of people that apply to be on that thing. Yeah. Yeah. So they kind of pick and choose probably who they think is going to be good at it, successful. I think they base their choices on a variety of criteria. One is one is that you could do it.

One is skill, one is who they think is going to be, who the audience is going to connect with. Okay. So there's more stuff than just, like, you know, how good you are in the woods. Yeah, yeah. So, okay, so you start gaining weight. At what point did you know you were going on the show, like a couple months before? I was kind of a funny thing. is I didn't know,

I didn't know for sure that I was going to go out until two days before I went out. Are you serious? Why? Yeah, because I was cast as an alternate. Really? Yeah. And so I went up there. The only reason I got on is because they cast someone from the U.K.

And this was right in the middle of COVID. And he couldn't come because they had all that, they had to travel, you know, shut down. Yeah. And that's the only reason I was able to get on the show. Really? So you were, you were an alternate. So two days before you're in Idaho. No, no, no.

I went to, so when they, when you, they only 10 people go out in the field, but they actually take 12 to location. And so because this was in the middle of COVID, we had a two-week quarantine and then a 10-day, 10 or 12-day orientation period at the, not at location, but need. nearer there. And that whole time, it was me and another, we knew one of us was going on, but they wouldn't never tell us who it was. And they were just waiting to see. So they had 12 people there in case like something happened of one of the 10.

Yes. But so you're up there thinking you're not even going to be on the show. You knew you were an alternate? I knew, yeah, I was, I knew it was an alternate because they told me that before, like, you know, I was talking to the casting director. and she's like, I can't remember exactly how it went, but she said, we've got all the 10 spots filled,

but would you accept being an alternate? And I was like, you know, I was kind of kicking the balls. Yeah, I had to, I saw them to think about that. And I took a day and thought about it. And I was like, you know, if there's an opportunity. The stakes were high. Yeah. Like if it worked out, it would be really significant.

Yeah. Yeah. And anyway, I ended up, I ended up accepting. I was like, well, I mean, we didn't know at this time, like, I didn't know if this guy, I didn't know you know that was going to be an issue, you know, that he wouldn't be able to come. So I'm thinking, you know, he's coming and I'm just going to be there. And, you know, I was like, well, at the very least, I'll get to meet some cool people and hang out. And you would have gone there and just gone home when they went out?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you're like on deck. Yeah. And then two days before they go, you're in the show. Yep. Wow.

On Blood Trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bed. And there was a full of blood. Oh, my God. He doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors,

where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, And the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there, but he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper. From cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwoods. Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest.

Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season 2 of Blood Trails premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, IHeart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. They take you out to this location. And how much do you think the location matters for success? I guess how much variation is there in locations? on a single show. I think there can be a lot.

I never saw anyone else's location, but just from looking at the footage and talking to people, I think there's a lot of variation. How big of a range was everybody in? We were on a lake, Chilko Lake, which is, I think, something like 50 miles. I could be mistaken about that. I think we were spread out for 50 miles along this lake.

So you're probably five to ten miles from someone else. Yeah. Yeah. And they have, you know, you're supposed to carry a tracker with you, a GPS tracker. And so if you, they have a boundary. And like when you're, when you're, they dropped us off on a boat. And when you're, when you're going up there, you know, getting dropped off, they say, you know, this ridge top. And, you know, they kind of point out the boundaries, but you can't really, unless you're in the air, which some of them are dropped off in the air.

You know, it's on other seasons. that they have a better, I would, I feel like anyway, they'd have a better idea where their boundaries are, which is handy because I didn't know exactly where my boundaries were until I hit them. And then they start beeping you, like, turn around, go back. And you're like, well, hell, I just spent the last five hours trying to get over here. And now you're, now I've got to go back. Really? Yeah. They only did that to me a couple of times, but there was one time.

So you were pushing the boundaries. Oh, yeah. So it wasn't that big of an area then? It was big, but I, I mean, I walk, and I wanted, like, you have to do well and to be able to exploit the resources. You've got to know what's on there. And the only reason, the only way to know, they don't show you a map. I mean, it's basically, you're going somewhere. You've never been before.

And on top of that, when we went in, there was a bunch of wildfires to the south of us and all that smoke was blowing up there. So the visibility was less than a mile. Like you couldn't see anything. Wow. And so you're basically going out there blindfolded and they're dropping you off, say, good luck. And so you think about, you know, being out on a drop hunt like that where you don't,

you don't get to pick your spot. You don't even get to look at any aerial photographs or anything before you go out there. You just like dropped off and then you have to figure it out. Yeah. Well, you know, you know, to figure out where the critters are, you got to walk the, you got to walk it. Yeah.

And there was one time where I could see from part of my area, I could see that there was up this slope that was like a little bench. And I was like, well, that looks like a place where critters would come across. Well, I got three quarters of the way there, and it was up some nasty hillside that was brushed in and just nasty walking. I got three quarters the way there, and they ding me. That turned around. And you take some back But there's a sweet little funnel up there

They probably got some elk coming through What about that? Didn't you see a mountain line? Yeah, it was I think it was the second or third day there Right at my camp I was just Sitting down

By a campfire And Just kind of mind of my own business And this red squirrel 10 yards behind me, shot up a tree, started barking. I was like,

oh, that's weird. And I turned around. There was a mountain line. And he wasn't, I mean, he was less than 10 yards from me, looking at me. Holy sense.

And I, he was kind of crouched down in the bush. And I had the camera there, and I got him on film and everything. The camera was rolling. But my bow was 20 yards away. Mm. At my,

where my, I had strung up a tarp for a temporary shelter. And I is one of those, you know, hindsight things. I, what I tried to do was I tried to just kind of ease back over there. Well, when I took a step away from him, he took, he turned tail and faded into the bushes. And I ran after him trying to get him to tree, but he was gone. And I, you know, in hindsight, what I should have done was right when I saw him, I should have just ran at him. And he probably would have popped up a tree.

And I probably could have got to my bow. Yeah. So you legally could have killed him. Yeah. Yeah. And when they told us that, it was like, what we were going to get to hunt was in negotiation for a long time. And we didn't get, I didn't know, we didn't know what we were getting until maybe a week before we went out. We didn't even know we were going to be able to have shoot a deer.

And so they're like, oh, by the way, you can kill a mountain line and maybe even a link soon. It was like, well, we're out. Great. Thanks. Good luck. Good luck. I've spent my life in the woods. I've never seen one.

Well, day two, I have one 10 yards behind me looking at me. Unbelievable. Yeah, that's what I thought. Yeah. Yeah, I remember that scene. And I remember you discussing with the camera. that you should have run at it. You know what I thought when you'd said that?

You know, you watch television and you see these survival people. And most, well, I don't, the world knew you were legit when you said I should have charged that mountain line and it would have treed. Like, you can be in bushcraft and, but only a hunter would know that that would

work. Because when he said that, I was like, boy, I bet he could have. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because they,

you can do that with a bear. I mean, if you see a bear, come up close on a black bear, don't do it to a gris. But run at them, man, their flight responses typically to go up a tree,

you know. But no, no, that was a, that was wild. You even got him on camera. That, that to me seems to be the challenge

with, with that whole scenario is, you're filming and like, just getting, something getting anything on film to show people without just telling them just like hey i just saw them out mine yeah but you that's one of the things that i mean that's one of the things that they really drilled into our heads before we went out is just let the camera roll it doesn't matter if anything if there's nothing going on leave the camera on let it roll because they've got like

stacks and i had yeah unbelievable amounts of batteries yeah that they they we had a big pelican case that was, I mean, it was big. It's probably, it's probably the biggest pelican case they make. It was like that big, that or that wide, and, you know, maybe two feet deep and like 14 inches deep. And that thing was just chock full. We had extra cameras, GoPro's, and just, you know, pounds and pounds of batteries and media cards. And so when they came out to do their med checks, they would swap out, they would get our old, our filled up media cards, give us fresh ones, and then swap out batteries. Interesting.

So you didn't have any way to charge anything? No, I didn't have any way to charge anything. We had a battery bank, but the only thing I ever used that for was maybe charging like the little satellite communications. communicator thing. Yeah. So you, how did you establish where your home base was?

Was it just right on the lake? It ended up being, I, I was, I think I was the last one to set up a permanent shelter. They had to, they had to, like,

it was probably time to set up a... They texted you that? No, when they came out to do their med check one time. Like how many days in? I don't know. It was probably 10 days in or something like that. And you were,

just kind of floating around with a tarp. Yeah. Why did they care? They needed, I think they needed to know where I was going to be so that they could get like a safety plan. Like if something happened, you know, if I, there was grizzlies everywhere. Like that's one of the highest grizzly densities, I think, in North America up there. Wow.

And so they, you know, they have a safety crew that's ready to respond in case somebody calls in and something's going on. So they're trying to get their plans together, like how they're going to respond to something. But I didn't set up a permanent shelter because I didn't want to just set it up where they dropped me off. I wanted to check out my area first.

I wanted to set it up in the best possible spot. And so I was just scouting, and it turned out that where they dropped me was the best spot that I failed. So I ended up setting it right there. Just right where they dropped. Pretty much, yeah. And that had to do with proximity to good hunting, proximity to water.

Yeah, water hunting, food resources, berry patches, you know, just a whole variety of things. But where they dropped me was I was kind of right at where a couple of different habitat types came together. So there was edge there, you know, good place to set snares. you know, I didn't want to have to, I didn't want to have to travel a long way to run a trap line. Yeah. Or to find, you know, I think that would probably be the, the, I hadn't really thought about that,

but if they dropped you off and you had this huge area, I mean, I assume your area was many square miles. I don't really know how big it was. It was several, it was several square miles. Yeah. Yeah, and so, you know, you can't, it's just like, where do you camp when you hunt? Like,

you're always, that would be a question you'd always answer because you don't want to be too far away from where you hunt, but you also don't want to be right in the middle of where the game is. You'll spook them. So like finding that balance. And usually in my life, I end up camping too far away from where I'm hunting.

And, you know, having to walk so far to get to the good hunting, you know. But, yeah, that would be interesting. What questions do you have? What time of year? Yeah, what time of year did you start? We started mid-September.

Okay. And then my season, I think, went through the end of November. So it was getting pretty chilly towards the end. So, okay, on the show, what's the longest anybody's ever stood out? They did a season, season seven, I think, where it was a 100-day challenge. So you had to make it to 100 days. I think you had to make it to 100 days to win the thing. But it was a million bucks, too.

Wow. I was wishing that they would have, I could have stayed out there a hundred days. Yeah. So 100 days is the longest anybody on a loan has ever stayed. Yeah. I think 87, I could be wrong on that. 80s, something like that. Yeah, with the.

And it's not, I guess it's not apples to apples. It's because every location is different. and I remember them saying that on your season, the hunting was very difficult. Like, you were the only one that killed a deer. Yeah, I mean, it was just a, it was a high elevation, really unproductive habitat. And I was there for two and a half months, and I saw two deer. Really? And you killed one of them.

And I killed one of them. That's unbelievable. Yeah. I mean I would find it using dowsing rods that don't dows that's right calls up the dark spirits we just want a witch

yeah yeah I wasn't going to tell anybody about that so well okay so you yeah you killed a deer man it was on the when we were following along I mean it's like

when he killed that deer I mean it was like awesome you know, because you're just like, oh my gosh, Clay just killed a deer. And, you know, and the way they build it up, you know, like everybody else is struggling. And, you know, this person's starving and has been eating mushrooms. It's been a couple of years since I've actually watched the deal. But we were watching it. And he kills a deer.

And you just almost can't believe it, you know. Yeah. Because I know how hard it is, number one, to kill a deer with a traditional bow out here over a pile of corn is hard. Right. Very hard. And then to do it off the ground, low density like that, I mean, it just was meant to be. It was, yeah.

I mean, that was, I'm not, I mean, I've killed a lot of animals with self-bows. Deer, bear, hogs, I mean, all sorts of elk, all sorts of stuff. and I have never had an emotional reaction to any animal like I had when I walked up on that deer and saw that deer laying in the grass. How far in was it before you killed it? Three weeks. Okay. Yeah. Which was probably perfect.

It was, yeah. Because if you killed it on the first day, you know, I mean, I don't, you know, but three weeks in, that's pretty good timing. It was good timing because, you know, the fishing really, I had caught a few fish to start with and had a very small surplus. Like I was really trying to stretch the food that I could get as far as I could stretch it. And so I would catch a fish, you know, and I might eat like, I'd catch, say, a 20-inch trout. I'd eat like one quarter or one fillet. you know, in a day. And that's all I would eat.

Maybe some mushrooms. And so you're talking, I don't know how many calories that would be, what, 300 calories, 400 calories, something like that. And so I'd caught a few fish and I'd smoked them and trying to, you know, just trying to preserve the meat. But I'd caught. So you were smoking them. Yep.

I'd caught all of those, all the fish that I caught, I caught within like a two or three day period. And then, which was like the first week. and so by the time I had killed that deer, I hadn't caught a fish for like 10, 12 days of fishing every single day for hours a day. And so you got this... What happened? Why couldn't you catch them?

I don't know. I think we got a little cold snap and they... I couldn't find them in the shallows anymore. I wasn't getting bites or anything. I just... They just weren't there. And so you got this little stash of

you know, food and you know that if you don't find more food, you're not going to be able to stay. I don't have enough body weight to stay out there, to just sit there and starve. And so it's very stressful. Like, I can see my time coming to an end because I cannot catch a fish.

At this point, there's no snow cover, so I'm not snaring. I'm not catching any rabbits. I'm not, I, I, maybe shot a grouse or two by that time. Was that type of hunting not pretty productive? Like trying to shoot a red squirrel or grouse? Squirrels were off limits. Oh, no.

Because they're a fur bear in Canada. And they wouldn't, we couldn't take fur bears. Really? Yeah. So I could snare, I could hunt rabbits and snare rabbits, but I wasn't seeing any. I didn't start catching rabbits until we got some snow cover. But, you know, you think about it, you know, it was stressful for me because I knew that my time, like, I wasn't going to be able to stay there. And so when I did kill that deer and saw him laying there in the grass, it was like all of that pressure is just gone.

It's just like I've never experienced like a release, a pressure release like that. It's just like, p, like the weight of the world is just like off your shoulders. Yeah. Do you feel like that was the deciding factor of you being able to stay out longer than everybody else? 100%. Yeah, I wouldn't have been able. I wasn't catching enough fish and I wouldn't have been able to do it on rabbits and grouse. And I didn't have the body condition.

Because by the time I shot that deer three weeks in, I was already back. I had already lost a pound a day. Wow. I was already, I estimate anyway. They wouldn't never let us look at the scale, but just judging by how I looked and, you know, how my close fit. You felt like you felt normal. I was like I am not right now.

I'm probably 160 pounds right now. Yeah. And so, you know, I was going to be going into a deficit after that. And I continued to decline in my weight, like by a lot. but I eventually my body, my body weight and muscle mass, we reached an equilibrium with what I was able to bring in. And I stopped losing weight. I think I got down to 140 pounds.

Wow. So I looked like, you know, my abs, if I were to pinch my skin and the fat, that's what it looked like. There was zero fat. Like if you take your forearm and just pinch the skin on it. Like you're saying on your belly. Yeah. Like, if I did that, that's what it looked like. There's nothing there.

There was no fat at all. Wow. That is amazing. You know, what he, would him describing killing that deer and the sense of relief, I've thought about, I mean, this is kind of an artificial situation today in the modern world to send someone out and say, survive, kill something with primitive weapons or snares or whatever for your survival. And it's kind of cool because we can kind of artificially make this thing that because there's so much at stake, it's actually probably pretty similar to a real kind of like paleolithic existence. I mean, other than the saws and not some of the tools you had. But I just think about the people.

Their actual survival was their literal survival, not excitement because we killed a deer because we killed a deer because we're, we're hunting and we want to bring food home to our family so we don't have to eat, you know, beef, but like literally people that would kill a deer and that would make them survive through a travel or something, a journey. I mean, it happened, period, like people, you know. I wish that everyone could experience that, that gratefulness for, like, I mean, just I was overjoyed with, when I saw that deer, like, I mean, I was overcome with emotion.

Never, I've never experienced anything like that before or since. Yeah. Unbelievable. So you kill this deer on like the 21st day or so? Somewhere around there, yeah. And you have no sense of what anybody else is doing. You don't know anything. You don't know if nine, eight people have dropped off and you're going against one.

Did you have any sensation or any inkling? I mean, did you think you were going to win? Of course. Does everybody think they're going to win? That's an interesting question. And my opinion is that no, not everyone thinks they're going to win. And that's why people leave in the first week or first couple days. Yeah.

You know, I think that in order to push yourself through the discomfort and the not only the physical discomfort, discomfort, but the emotional anguish of being separated from your family with no contact at all, no word at all, in order to push yourself through those things, you have to believe that you're going to win. Because if you don't, there's not really worth it. Well, there's a thousand, there's a thousand, there's a thousand. there's a thousand and one excuses to leave. I mean, they are easy to find. Yeah.

Like, oh, my sight is terrible. You know, so-and-so's got, he must have a bear. Or somebody's killed a this or that. I mean, you can find reasons to leave. Finding reasons to stay is not as easy. Yeah. I think you have to. That would be just the ultimate conflict.

on a very micro scale, and I think everyone here could identify with this, imagine being on a deer stand at about 9.30 in the morning, and you go, man, I could sit here until noon. Or I could get down and go do some work. I could get down and have some breakfast. I could get home and go see my wife.

Or I could go. Yeah. I'm joking. But it's like the same. Like there's a thousand reasons to get out of the tree that are all like very valid but then you know you make the decision well I'm going to sit till noon no matter what it's nothing like that that was kind of a joke but the point is I understand what you mean like I watching you do do that and that was the first season of

alone that full season that I ever watched and you know I guess everyone does it but you put yourself in that situation and I mean I already thought that of 50 reasons why I should go home. Yeah. I mean, you know, in the way they edit the films and also just what actually happens is that you start to see these characters kind of erode. You know, they do one little thing

or they say one little thing, and you're like, they're going to, in two episodes, they're going to be gone. Yeah. You know, and I guess there's surprises of people but maybe something really fortunate happens when they start to go down. Yeah. We, one of your buddies that you know, and I know.

Yeah, Cubby, Cubby Hoover. Cubby? A arrow stuck in his leg. Yeah. I talked to him before he went out, actually. I think on the phone, just, he had, I don't remember what the conversation was, but he had some questions about he knew he was going on there. Yeah, yeah.

That was unfortunate. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. On Blood Trails, the stories don't end when the hunt is over. They just get darker. I've seen something in the road. I instantly thought it was a sleeping bed. And there was a full of blood.

Oh, my God, he doesn't have a hit. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors. Where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. Indications were he should be right there. But he wasn't. This season, we're going deeper. From cold case files to whispered suspicions, from remote mountains to frozen backwards.

Each story begins in the wilderness and ends in darkness. Because out here, there are no witnesses, no cameras, just fragments and the people left behind trying to piece them back together. He's not an honest person. He's incapable of being honest. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillard. Season 2 of Blood Trails

premieres April 16th. Follow now on Apple, IHeart, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Obviously, this show is made to be challenging and demanding. What would you say was the most difficult part of it? Was it the fine and food?

Was it the mental game? Was it? I think it's the mental, emotional game. There was I've talked about this before on other podcasts, and I wrote a book about the experience. It's in the book, but probably the most difficult, I had a time period when it was probably between day 50 and 60,

where I just got flat out depressed. And that's not, like I don't normally, I'm not prone to slipping into a depression, or anything like that. So it was kind of odd for me. But, you know, you got all of these things that are stacking up. You've been away from your family, not only for those 50 days, but for the two-week quarantine plus the 10- or 12-day orientation.

Yeah, that would add up. Yeah. I mean, it's a long time to have no word at all from your family. So you got that. You've got weather that's turning crappy. You got like decreasing daylight. You got weather that's coming in. And the shelter that I made was a dark green tarp.

And you have a snowstorm comes in that keeps you in your shelter for two or three days. You're starving, literally. And so you got all of these things coming together. And it just, I mean, I got depressed. And I caught myself one day. I was just complaining. And again, they drill into your head to film all the time, so the camera just rolling.

I'm sitting in my shelter one evening and just complaining about everything. Just this sucks and the weather and blah, blah, whatever. And the next morning I was laying there in my bunk in my bunk. And the thought occurred to me that my two boys are going to watch this on TV. They're going to watch me complaining about all these things that I have no control over. And that one thought switched my entire perspective on the whole thing. And I'm grateful that this is like day 60 or something. I'm grateful that I went through that period of depression because without that, without that

mental anguish. I never would have got to that point where I was able to look at it from a completely different perspective. And from that moment on, I did not suffer anymore. And it was only because nothing changed about my situation. I didn't have any more to eat. The weather was still crap. I was still living in a dark hole. But it was just the way that I was looking at it. Right. I was able to look at it through their eyes. Yeah. And that's something that has stuck with me. And that's one of those things that I wish that people just in general could get,

they could experience something like that. You know, just the way that you, the way that we view our lives is, you know, it's all just perspective. You know, we can choose to see it as everything's wrong or we can choose to see it as, you know, we're going to make do and we're going to figure it out. That's really powerful. Yeah, it is. Up until that point, how long had you ever spent on your own or away from your family?

It was pretty common for me to go out on hunts and be gone for, you know, two weeks. I think the longest that I'd ever been gone from them was probably three weeks. Okay. Something like that. Yeah. That's tough, man. It's funny that we're so frail when it comes to stuff like that. I mean, because you think about when it comes to actual survival,

like caloric intake and keeping warm and having shelter over your head, it's like separation from your family is not a factor that's going to kill you. Right. But it absolutely is a major factor. I mean, we just, we're just, we're not designed to be isolated. We really are. I mean, it's like these mules out here.

You pull one of those mules out and put it in the trailer, and the other mules are just running up and down the fence, wanting to go, you know, they call it Buddy Sour. And it's like they're just made to stand beside each other. I mean, they just, they don't even, Izzy doesn't even like those other mules. She kicks them, bites them every day. But she cannot stand to not be standing right beside them.

Just chemically, you know, biologically. But it's kind of the same way because, I mean, shoot, man, on the small hunts compared to that that I've been on, I have had little micro moments in the back country where I just would be like flooded with a sense of missing my family. It just almost overwhelming, for real. It's like really private moments of that even as a grown man, just like, you know, just like. Like, I used to get real homesick, we call it, when I was a little kid in grade school, like cry at school. Just like, you know, just typical stuff. Right.

I'm serious. I still have that sensation occasionally. And I kind of just have to calm myself down. I can't imagine being gone for how long? I have a question. How long were you out there? So we, from the time that they dropped me. off until they came and got me. It was 74 days. I was gone from home, the 74 plus the two-week

orientation, or the two-week quarantine, 10-day orientation, plus I was there on the backside for another probably 10 days. So however that. Oh, really? When it's like 120 days, almost four months. When they came to get you, you still were 10 days from being home. Yeah. Now, did your wife come and meet you? Was she able to do that? They would not let her come because they had the border shut down. She's the only one in all of the seasons that wasn't able to go out there. Oh, wow, because of COVID. Yep.

Wow. Yes, that's sucked, but got to talk to her via sat phone when they came and told me I was the last one. So they come and get you. Yeah. Yeah. It's a crazy. Have you ever watched the season of alone? I've watched, I've started several seasons and not gotten to the end.

And I'm not, I don't watch a lot of television, but the way they do it is pretty cool because they go do this random health check. And the audience doesn't know it either, correct? I think the audience does know that they're, so the audience is kind of in on it. Okay, okay. The scene is they just show up at Clay's camp to do a health check, just like they have every week probably for this whole time. And so they come up and they don't talk to them or any, you know,

they don't chit chat with them. They're just like, step on the scale. How do you feel? What have you eaten? They do all this stuff. And, you know, Clay's like 140 pounds and dirty and just like, you know, just kind of been out there for 74 days.

And then they're like, what did they say to you, actually? Because they said something like, well, you don't have to. I think you said like, I'm going to try to catch a rabbit tomorrow. Yeah, they asked. So one of the things that they do when they come out and do their health check is the field producer will do a short interview with you. Just to kind of. So they have an idea of what's been going on from that time to the previous,

when they came out there the previous time. It helps them to find footage to make, and do their heads and all that stuff. And so they asked, like, so how long do you think you can make it out here? And I was like, well, depends on how many rabbit and grouse I could catch. Because I was catching rabbits pretty much every day. And I was shooting and snaring grouse. I actually left there with two grouse tied to my backpack. If you look at it.

Are you serious? Yeah, if you look, if you watch that final scene where I'm walking to the helicopter, you can see them on my back on my back. Oh, you were living off the fat of the land. But I said, well, I mean, I still had a bunch of deer meat, and I was catching grouse and stuff. I was like, well, I know I can make it the 90 days because I had my deer meat rationed to 90 days.

And I, you know, I could have. Were you keeping track of days? I was not. I had no idea. It didn't matter to me. It didn't matter to me how many days I was going to be out there. So you didn't go out, did you go out with a goal? Like, I'm going to for sure make it the X number of days.

Yeah, my goal was to be the last one. I like it. It didn't matter to me how many days it went. I was either going to, you know, I went in there with the, I had made up my mind that I was not tapping out. They were going to have to pull me out. I just got lucky and killed. and didn't have to do that, or they didn't have to do that. But they said something along the lines, well, it's, well, turns out you're not going to have to do that because they said something along the lines of you're not, you're the last one or something like that.

And it didn't, if you watch the footage, you can see my face and I'm like, like, what are you even talking about? Yeah, yeah, I remember that. It took you a minute to understand what they were telling you. Yeah. Because their communication was not telling you. Like you would typically if, you know, so much of our communication is external. Like if I was telling you you won, it would be like, you won. And they were like, well, you won't have to stay here anymore because you're the last one.

And he was like, what? There's a good, there's a very good reason for that confusion. on my part, and it has to do with, there's a season, I think it was season six, where a fella is convinced that he's the last one. He's got it in his mind. Like, I am the last one. On this med check, they're coming.

My wife's going to come. She's going to sneak up behind me, and she's going to tell me I'm the last one, and I'm a one. Will they come out and do the med check, all that stuff, and then they leave? And he is not the last one. and it destroyed him.

And so in my mind, I had built like this mental block. Like there was, they were not coming to tell me anything. They were coming. Was it off schedule? No, because they weren't on a schedule.

Okay. I mean, they came out whenever they came out. I think the longest, and I, you know, I think the longest I ever went without seeing anybody is,

probably three weeks. And I might be off on that. Really? So that was three weeks. Yeah, they, there was sometimes, it was 10 days, sometimes it was a week, sometimes, you know, what. So it was random. It was random. They would just call us, I didn't know when they were coming. They would just, you know, text me on the thing and say, hey, you know, tomorrow at 11 o'clock or whatever, we're going to be, you need to be at your shelter. Yeah. Yeah. And so in my mind, like, there's no possibility that I'm leaving. Like, I'm here for the duration. And it was such a, like, I don't know what that is that you can do to yourself in your mind to make you believe something like that.

But I believed it. And so that's why that was, it was like, I didn't even under, I couldn't comprehend what they were saying. The momentum of your state of mind was rolling so hard towards, they're not coming to tell me I won. I mean, I'm staying here forever. Yeah. that when they said it, it's like it didn't compete. It did not even make sense what they were saying. And he said, and then the next thing he was saying was like,

I don't remember exactly what it was. But then it was like, oh, oh, I'm the last one. Holy crap. Yeah. And it was, again, one of those, like just one of the most emotional things that I've ever experienced in my life. How long had you been married at that point? Mm-hmm.

Liz, don't listen to this. It's hard to do back math. How long have you been married now? Probably 17, 15 years. Was your wife like all in from the very beginning? Yeah, she. With the marriage? No, she was for the first 10 years.

I mean with the loan, with a loan. Did she have any hesitation? You know, she didn't, if it had been up to her, she wouldn't have, I wouldn't have gone. You know, the last thing she wanted me to go to be gone for four months. And to starve to death. And to starve and all that stuff. But she was never, she knew that it was important to me.

And it was actually, I didn't realize how, I didn't realize how important her, supporting me. I didn't realize how important that was to her until I came out. and there was a development while I was out there. I had no idea what was going on. When you go out there, you have to sign a paper that says, if there's an emergency at home, that they either come and tell you or they don't. You can say that if someone contacts you and they're dying,

I do not want to be informed. And so I, of course, put on there, yeah, I mean, if my wife determines that it's an emergency, I want to know about it. Come and tell me. Yeah. Well, she had gone, she had a doctor's appointment. This was the day that I launched, day one. She goes to the doctor and get just like a routine scan. and they found a growth on one of her ovaries.

Oh, my. And she used to, she was an x-ray tech at this hospital. And so she knew everybody in the radiology department. And somehow she got her hands on the piece of paper from the person that read and interpreted the scan. And it said, this is likely ovarian cancer. Wow. I'm going to start crying. So she's standing there with basically a death sentence in her hand.

And she does not call. She deals with this on her own. And it's several days before she can go back in. And she was never supposed to get that paper. Right. You know, she was never supposed to see that paper without a doctor there to explain things to her. but she was able to get back in they did a biopsy they went in and removed that ovary so she had a pretty major surgery abdominal surgery yeah i never knew about it she never told me

wow because she didn't want to take that opportunity away from me you know had it had it been cancer, I don't know what she would have done. I don't know if she would have told me or not. I hope that she would have, but I don't know. Yeah. But she thought it was and that she made the decision to deal with it on her own. Yeah. Was, I mean, I just, that just, I didn't even know how to respond.

That's part of the story that you don't see on the show. Yeah. I didn't even know how to, I mean, she told me that when I came. a couple days after I came out and I was just like, you know. I can't imagine what it would have done to you had you been out there. Oh, yeah. I mean, if you decided to stay, it would have been, you would have just been a wreck. Yeah, I would have been.

Yeah. And then, or would you have just decided to go home, you know? Had I had she called and told me that, I would have gone home. Yeah. I mean, no question about it. Right. I wouldn't have hesitated. Yeah. But she, I mean, she knew that it was important to me, but I didn't know, you know, I didn't know that she put that much stock in it, you know.

Yeah, yeah. And she was that strong to handle that on her own. Let me ask you a question. And honest answers would be acceptable. That's quite a caveat. Let's go caveat. Not expected, but acceptable. Well, why did you do it?

And let me give you it multiple choice. My question is, why did you outlast everybody? Why? Like the internal motivation. And an acceptable answer would be the money was a major factor, what it would do for, I mean, Clay makes outdoor media. Right.

Like, there would be no mistaking that him winning alone would be, could be significant for just his career, which to me, career is connected to family and connected to taking care of your family. So it's not like career doesn't have to be just like personal ambition to like be something great. Right. You know, it's connected to success that go, you know, rolls over into your family. And I obviously don't think it's one. of those, or it could also be like this personal challenge or maybe just winning. I mean,

sometimes there's things that a person just feels like they need to win and like the money isn't that big a deal. Like, you know, like what if the pot had been like $500? You know, would Clay Hayes still have gone out there and won? So the question is on the table, many ways to answer. Is that a fair? Would you like to add to the question bear? I don't think so. I think you worried that pretty good. Okay. Josh? No. Lies and truth acceptable. Apparently. So for, I think everybody that goes out there has different reasons and different motivations. for for me the money was not I never thought about the money when I was out it was not a motivation for me and if there had been no money I still would have done what I did I still would have pushed myself to that I think that's all I think he's being honest now I like you were talking about with the exposure and the and the media and the career and all that stuff like I Like I knew that this was huge for me and what I do for a living.

Right. I didn't, I never thought about that when I was out there. It's not why I stayed out there. Okay. But before going out there, I had a plan. Like, I mean, I had a year from the time I came out, or from the time I went out there until it was, it went on History Channel. And during that year, man, I did a lot of.

stuff. So you had to keep it secret for a full year. Yeah. Golly. Wow. Yeah. I actually talked to Clay during that year. Okay.

And I knew he was on it, and I knew that he couldn't tell how it had gone down. Yeah. And he was like, total poker face. Let it go. Even though I had a sneaking suspicion that you won, not because anything you did, but just because I was like, Clay Hayes would win. Yeah. I'm being honest. I think I went home and told people.

I was like, I probably might. I don't know who I told, but I didn't like put it on the Instagram or something. Right. But I was like, I bet he won. But as far as like the real reason, the reason that I, one of the big, one of the big reasons I went out there is because it was a test of myself and what I, it was one of those things that I always. Just am I good enough? Am I good enough to do this? And it's like the ultimate test for that.

Because it is, it is real. Yeah. Like there's no, like I was talking about it. And this is what you do. It is, but it's like the ultimate challenge of being a human, you know, of what a human is. And so that was the big reason, like, that I, that I want. wanted to do it in the first place.

I always wanted to do something like that. And it just turned out that alone was the opportunity to do it. The reason that I stayed was because I had made a promise to my family that, like my boys, when I left, you know, I was like, I need your help. I need you help your mom while I'm gone. I need y'all to try to behave and like don't make it harder on. And, you know, they did, they did amazing. And I wasn't, you know, I wasn't going to, I wasn't going to quit because I was uncomfortable or because I was hungry or because of any, you know, I can't think of anything short of a, you know, like a broken leg with a bone sticking out of my leg that would have made me hit that button.

I was just not, it was not an option for me. I never thought about the button. It was not on my mind because for me it wasn't an option. Like that bud didn't exist. That's a good answer. That's a good answer. And maybe not surprising, but it feels like it would be hard not to be motivated by the money. I mean, even if somebody wasn't...

I think a lot of people are, but for me, it wasn't a big deal. Not because, I mean, the money has helped us pay off our house. You know, we've started a couple of college funds for the kids, you know. We've invested a, I mean, it helped us be more secure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But had there been no money, I still would have done it because of the personal challenge and the benefits that came out of the thing. I mean, I came out of that.

I'm a different person than I was before I went out there. And that, to me, is more valuable than any prize money. I mean, we go through our lives and we take for granted so many things. and oftentimes those things that we take for granted are our family because especially I think about my wife's like we've been together since we were 17 years old and so we've just always she's always been there you know and when someone that is or someone or something is a constant in your life it's just like you know you kind of lose that perspective and being out there and having all of that stuff stripped away from you gives you a an opportunity to look back on your life. Like, that's a, that's a thing that people don't get today, really, is an opportunity that we're so busy. We're distracted every single day with, you know, trying to make a living with social media

or whatever, the little computers in our pockets. Like, we never have a chance to step away from our lives and look at our life. And, like, well, why do I do things the way that I'd do them? you know, why do I go to this job every day? Why do I, you know, why do I do anything? And that gave me the opportunity to do that. Because I was pulled out of my, like, my normal life. And that's a, that's a tremendously valuable thing.

It was to me anyway. Yeah. You know, it's such a rare, it really is rare. I mean, like the opportunity. And I, you know, I mean, any one of this could, make decisions that would lead us to go on a trip of isolation in the wilderness. I mean, there's nothing stopping you, Josh, from doing that. But there's a thousand things that are, really.

So, I mean, like the opportunity to get to do that, yeah, I guess that really is so rare. Because, yeah, you just wouldn't do it on your own. I mean, it's like there had, there would have to be a reason. a justification, you know, the show, the prize package, the, you know, there's all these things that, like, make it this, like, kind of once in a lifetime opportunity, you know? Yeah. I mean, do you want to go do it again? I mean, maybe not be on the show alone, but do you, is there something in you that's, like,

craving to go out there, or did it extinguish all that desire? Because you know you can do it. You did it. I don't have any desire to go out and starve again and go through all of that. But when I, in the days following me coming out of there, I thought to myself, I will never, ever do that again. It was a lot to endure. Yeah. You know, but time has a way of kind of, you remember the good that came out of it.

And you kind of forget some of the anguish and the suffering. It was like type 2.8 fun. Yeah. I think that's five fun. You know, people ask me that. Was it fun? I was like, no, it wasn't fun. I mean, it definitely had its moments.

Like, I had life. changing experiences out there and experiences that I never would have had before. I'm grateful for it. It was not fun, but I'm grateful that I did it and went through it. But if they offered me a chance to do it again, I would consider it. I don't know that I would.

I mean, I would probably, knowing myself, I probably would not be able to turn it down because it's a huge adventure. Well, isn't it, what's the catn't, what movie am I talking about? Hunger Games. Didn't in the Hunger Games, they bring all the champions back together?

Yeah, like an all-stars. Yeah, that's, I don't think that's ever going to happen. I mean, surely the alone people have thought of that, bring all the champions together and have like a huge prize pool. They've thought about it. I don't know that they've got the budget for it. And I don't know that people would even do it again. Yeah.

Yeah. Because, you know, you've got guys now that are doing really well, like on YouTube. And as ever, do most people that went alone go on to have a career that's attached to that? winning? No, not. I mean, some do, certainly. I was doing YouTube stuff before I ever got on the long. Right, 100%.

I started doing YouTube stuff full time in 2017. It wasn't on the show until 2020. It picked up a lot after it went on Netflix. But, like, Jordan is the only one out of the other winners. He's the only one that I really have spent time with and know. And he does some YouTube stuff, but it's not, I don't think anyway, I don't think it's a major part of what he does. He runs an outfitting business now out of, he outfits into Idaho from the Montana side, I think. But he does survival classes.

Like he'll bring people in and pack them into the wilderness and spend, you know, five or seven days or whatever back in there teaching them how to make friction fires and shoot, bows and arrows and pitch tents and do all that type of stuff. Yeah, yeah. I think that's his big, that's his big deal now. Yeah. Cool. Last spring, Clay Newcomb and I collaborated with Jason Phelps at Phelps game calls and building each of our own favorite turkey diaphragms called prime cuts.

Now, I'm going to tell you, I love mine because it's easy to use. I'm not going to go, I'm not going to win a turkey calling contest. It's just not going to happen. but when I run this call, I get the sounds that gobblers are looking for. I have a great turkey hunting track record. If you go listen to real turkeys out in the woods, they're not going to win calling contests, right?

That's who I listen to. I can make those sounds on my cut. I also hunt with Phelps's cut, and I hunt with Clay's cut because they're all three great cuts. Check out Prime Cuts at Phelpsgamecalls.com. I think you'll be glad you do. did and you'll find out that the Steve Ronella cut is an easy to use cut for beginning callers who just want to start making good turkey noises and getting action.

It's a great story. Yeah, it really is. Man, what's cool? And I would have been a skeptic of most, well, I had never seen, I had never watched alone when I learned that Clay was going to be on it in that lag year. and in that first conversation I feel like I asked you is it real?

Yeah, is it? Just because I didn't have a frame of reference for it and you were like, oh, it's very real. And I was like, oh,

cool. And then, you know, started watching it and maybe even watched another season before or something. But that's the coolest part of alone that makes it different than

at least anything I've seen is that. It's like, It's like people are, it's legit. So, wow, man, that's awesome. We didn't even get to talk about Clovis and Folsom today. And we don't have time to. We could talk about it. It remains a mystery.

It remains a mystery. No, I mean, we could talk about it for like five minutes here. No, typically on the render, we talk about the bear grease that just came out. And it really would have been fitting to have Clay here to talk about, Clovis. Yeah. I mean, we can talk about it a little bit, but I love these episodes about early human history and archaeology. Met and Aaron and Dr. David Meltzer are like heroes.

Yeah. They're great. Taylor Keane was great. I mean, like an all-star lineup on the podcast. And this is a Clovis point that Meton Aaron made for me. He is a, just like a very, very, very good maker of fulsome points.

Falsom or Clovis? Excuse me, Clovis points, Clovis points. Yeah. So is this, would this classify as a Clovis? That's a Clovis.

Yeah. And it's, it's just, it's just the halfting. You know, like the... The Clovis has the flutes that go all the way up.

The Folsom. The Folsom. Folsom. That's a Folsom. That's a Folsom. That's a fulsome. So, so this,

this is a, cast of a real fulsome point. Which the fulsome has the full slab off of it. And that's like the radical newer version of a Clovis. So that's a cast of one. That's a cast of a real clovis. Look how thin it is.

I know it's amazing. It's a real fulsome. Excuse me. And now this is a fulsome that was made for me by Tony Sauras. So, I mean, that's a real one. That is just like, that is a master at work right there. I mean, I wonder how many they totaled before they got that.

Well, I mean, the Folsom points, they say they had a 40 to like 50% failure rate. And that's probably someone that really knew what they were doing. Yeah. I mean, you got to. Sorry, go ahead. I was just going to comment that to get to this point of being able to make something like this, like this is years and years of busting rock. So how many crappy points did this guy make before he made started making this stuff?

Yeah. And they must have felt like that, like, that it was worth it. You know what I mean? Like, that must have been more effective? Or was it like, hey, this is my maker's stamp that I can do this, you know? But I look at something like this like this and I see. artwork. Like we like a beautiful hunting knife.

Does that make it cut any better than a one that's not beautiful? But that's so hard, especially the full, and now we're talking about Folsom. It's like so hard to make though. It just seems like if you were out on alone, you wouldn't be showing out. Maybe you would because you didn't have anything else to do. I mean, do you see what I'm saying?

You wouldn't be like trying to do something extra special just for the sake of it. I don't know, man. It's like, I think of cave paintings when I look at this. It's like, what's the function other than artistic expression? You know, it's like the guy that makes this takes pride and what he's able to create. You know, and it's a beautiful thing. And I think that has value. If we could just set with the maker of that, I think we would be,

We would be astonished no matter what. It's possible that we could be astonished at the flippancy with which he would hold this. Like he might just be like, yeah, full simple, like us holding like a fork. Yeah. Like that we pulled out of the drawer. You know what I mean? Or we might be astonished that when he held that, he said, son, this is the pinnacle.

This is our future. This is the pinnacle of human existence to make that point. And I mean, he might have had philosophy, you know. Can I see that clove us one? I think it's probably more on that spectrum. I mean, it's complete speculation, though, you know? I mean, we just don't know. Yeah.

But it's fascinating. Josh, what stood out to you? You weren't involved as much in the actual content of this one. I was there with David Meltzer. Oh, you were with David Meltzer. but man, met in Aaron, that guy is sharp, man. Oh, he's cool. Yeah, I really enjoyed listening to that.

I think just, up until this, it hadn't been something that I'd spent a lot of time thinking about. Yeah. And so to put it out there of, you know, when David Meltzer talked about the ice-free corridor, it was fascinating to me the advancements using DNA technology. Yeah, that was fascinating.

finding that there was no organic matter, so the ice-free corridor would not have been a route that early humans would have traveled. And I can't tell you how many times in the last week I've said the Laurentide Ice Shelf and the Cordillarian. I sound like I really know what I'm talking about. But just to think about early man coming across and going down, how they would have lived, what would have been their motivation, What would have been their deciding factors on doing things is just it was new and kind of exciting to think about. Oh, my gosh. And the technology of the time at how long that technology was effective to keep survival of humans. You know, it was pretty amazing stuff.

I will never get tired ever when I see Folsom points and Clovis points of saying that those, people the only thing the only print that is left on the face of this earth that represents those people is these stone points I mean because everything else they interacted with was organic matter decayed their bones their flesh the Adelal spires their clothing their food they're like they didn't have plastic or metal or they didn't have anything The only thing that survived is that. And that's not entirely true because we do have in North America, and this will get into this more in a later episode.

But they have found a couple of human remains that they believe are from the Pleistocene. And one of them is that Anzic Child, which we just briefly talked about. The Anzic Child found in 1968, which was a toddler that was found while some dude was like digging a footing for his barn or something. in Montana and like digs up this human skull and they're like, holy smokes. And then they they realize it's old and an archaeologist or somebody comes and takes it. And then it's not until they can do DNA testing on it even in like the last 15 years that they DNA test the bone and it's still in good enough shape that they're able to determine what the mother eight, the mother of that child.

There's a whole academic paper. The mother of the Anzic child. Now, Meltzer tells me that the science is slightly is questionable. But I mean, it's like on like a major academic journal. Well, it's the one that it's so complicated. I hope y'all all were paying attention. It's the one that Matt and Aaron talked about how they used it as a political tool to talk about climate change. Right.

And to say that the humans were the ones that killed the mammoths out because they analyzed this child and were able to tell that the mother had a diet heavy, heavy in animal matter that essentially was equivalent to a scimitar cat, period. They weren't eating any potatoes. Exactly. Yeah. Or cane sugar. Or Coke zeros. That's right. but I bet those suckers could water witch

no doubt no I'll never get tired of just like when I look at that what I see is is mystery in a time period of human existence when it's like the mystery's been taken from us because of all that we know and all we have access to and the little computers in our pockets

and it's like we live in such a rare time I mean, like, these people would be looking at us going, holy cow, what, you know, we take it for granted where we live as just an anomaly in human existence. We have no idea what the results of this kind of life are, really. And I mean, it kind of even ties back into you with your alone stuff, like having this kind of artificial simulated, like existence in the wild for, this period of time that's like life changing to you. You come back into the real world and you're like, oh, I've seen the light. Like everybody needs to do this. I wish everybody could experience what I've experienced. I mean, it all kind of connects in a way, but fascinating. What stood out to you? You listened to the podcast, didn't you? I did. Would you have known about quite a bit of that stuff?

I mean, not the depth that you guys got into it. But, I mean, the thing that I kept thinking was what I was just talking about. Like, I think there's reason for making those points beyond just functionality. Right. I think there's an aesthetic and a craftsmanship angle there. I think it was a pinnacle of that cultures. I think the people that were making those could have been highly revered.

If you're able to produce a point like that, it would be like a fine rifle maker or something like somebody that's making something that's functional. And a pinnacle of the existence of their society. Yes. Like this wasn't a hobby that they were hunting.

This was the lifeway. Absolutely. Yeah. And so that, you know, I feel like there's a, there was a pride there in someone's craftsmanship and an artistic side of it. Yeah. And, you know, that when they could have, you know, there could have been people that that that's what they did. That's all they did was make, they were the artisans and that's what they did.

They made points. They were good at it. And so people would come and trade. They didn't have to go hunting. I mean, they were taken care of because they were good at making that type of stuff. Yeah. I don't think that, I don't think your average guy back in the day was able to create that. Even though they would have been sitting around and that would have been like a, it would have been equivalent to like being able to hook into the internet.

Yeah, watching TV. No, but it wasn't. It wasn't because look at, look at people today. look at guys today how many guys out of 100 guys how many guys could

go out there and cut down a tree and make a bench but right I see what you're saying but they don't have to they couldn't do it if they had to even if they were trained they don't have the they don't have it's not critical to their survival

is what you're saying no you're saying they don't even have They haven't had the aptitude. Yes. Okay. Exactly. Gotcha. I mean.

I see you said. There would be a gradient of just raw natural ability to do something like that physical and that tactical. Yeah. Tactile. Some people, some guys just don't have the mechanical ability to build things or to make things. And some people do. That's an artist. The guy that made that point, he is an artist.

and that that's only a certain number of the population. It's interesting hearing you say that because yesterday we had a brief conversation. I told Clay, like, we're totally breaking the rules by talking about this before the podcast. But Clay makes bows, and he has a style of self-bow that he would recognize just out of a lineup. Like, that's a bobe. And you're saying that, like, when you see a fulsome point, you see craftsmanship, specific craftsmanship and pride. and that originated probably

with just one guy that started doing it and started catching on and he was teaching people and it just kind of dispersed from there. Yeah. I feel like I could see that. Oh, go ahead, Barry.

I feel like I could see that. Like, it's easy to kind of just like look at the stone points and just kind of like generalize like all these ancient people just by like, you know, they all can make stone points

of that quality just because that's all we see. but that's kind of just like a generalization. Yeah. Like there would be some people who would be like a lot more skilled at it. Because like, you know, like you look at those points up there and some of those are like janky. You could make points better than some of those. Yeah.

And makes you wonder, was it a kid? Was it? Right. Or someone learning. But like to give me it to that point. When they made that, they were just like, dude, you need to haul firewood. Okay. It's interesting to me to think.

think about a stone point like that that's really beautiful. And then you see stone points from an era of a thousand years ago and how the technology changed, but I don't know that it was more effective. Like what caused it, what caused that to die out? That's great. A great question because it did. It's like they quit fluting points altogether after base at 10,000 years ago. Is that stone point more effective than that stone point?

point. I think that any, and I'm not, I'm not a historian. I could be way off base here, but it seems to me that you see art emerge in a culture when you have a state, we have a certain amount of stability, right? And so that makes me think that that's a, that's a high level. That's like the highest level of stone point that we've ever seen in this country and maybe in the world. I don't know. Yeah. But I think that that has to emerge out of a fairly stable. A stable culture. A culture, yeah. You have to, you know, you can't be, you can't be worried about whether or not you're going to be able to be able to find enough food tomorrow to support your family and put enough time into developing the skill to make that. Right. You have to have the time to do that.

that's that's not somebody that's living day to day or day by day. Yeah. That's a good point. It really is. Interesting. It's fascinating stuff. This is also, I think when you see the, you know, there's charts. Met and Aaron had some of these charts that like showed the technology shifts from year to year.

And I mean, like, so where's that Clovis point? I mean, essentially this Clovis point, this is a. would be older than a fulsome point. But what makes it Clovis of Clovis is that the haft, there's a small flute like right there. You can just barely feel it. Yep. And they make that by making a little, a little shelf.

Like there'll be a little nipple right there that they chip out, make a little, and then they hit that little platform, and it flakes off. well, this turned into this. So it's like a kid, his dad taught him how to do this. And he was like, he may have done it by accident the first time. But he was like, man, if you build that platform just a little bit bigger and hit it just a little bit harder, it'll flake the whole side off.

And it flakes off. And then they start making these for a thousand years. A dad taught his son. Yeah, literally. It has to be the product of knowledge, past, from regeneration generation. You don't come up with that. That's not like there's a thing called convergent evolution. Like, in two places, the same thing happens.

I think that's what it's called. Like, that doesn't happen because of that. A fulsome point happens because... Started one place. People taught... And then all of a sudden it just completely disappears. Well, you've got to ask yourself, like, if that, if my theory... is correct and that that developed out of a stable um you know food base or whatever what that was able

that was uh enabled these guys to put that amount of time in it like did something change and now it's like we can't we can't afford to sit around and paint on the cave walls like we got to get out there and you know we got to put meat on the pole yeah yeah and and and you know a normal stone point that doesn't have that level of detail in it is going to kill a buffalo just as dead as that one, you know, that I broke half of them trying to make these beautiful flutes in. Yeah. Well, and you also wonder how much human nature was involved in this technology because I purposefully did stuff different than Gary Newcomb did.

Bear Newcomb purposefully does stuff a little different than me, just in different areas. Just like, a bear nukem may have woke up one day after his oppressive father who tried to get into shoot bears and stuff in the rear. Maybe one day a bearer newcomer wakes up and goes, I ain't fluting any more points. I mean, you know?

This is dumb. Maybe it's what they made them do when they were grounded. Maybe they were grounded, like, go flute points. I'm not doing it anymore. When I leave, I'm never fluting another point. I mean, that happened. I know it did. I mean, like, people just going, man, you don't have to flute.

I mean, they're like secretly talking around their little kid fire. It's like, you don't have to flute them to kill stuff. I killed an art vark yesterday with just a regular point. And grandpa's like, what did you say? Any animal you kill better be killed with a fluted point. I guarantee you that they were people just like us. You know, that's, I somewhere heard the analogy that, you know, these Paleolithic people and these ancient people, if they had been born today, they could have learned to fly an airplane. They could have learned multiple languages.

I mean, they were just like us. Right. And so they had, they had social structure. They loved each other. They grieved when people died. They got mad at people. They got embit, you know, I mean, it's like, so this is all these, like the same dynamics that you have with your boys. Some Paleolithic guy had with his, like, I can't believe that kid, you know, did this or did that.

It's just fascinating. But, well, I guess we did have time to have this conversation. I guess we did. I guess we make the rules around here. Maybe the longest render we've ever done. For real. It's because we had such an interesting guest, but we also had an interesting topic podcast.

And I really had to get the water witch and stuff, you know, out on the table, out to the people. Yeah. You know? Clear the air a little bit. Clear the air a little bit. Yeah. Well, thanks, Clay. It was great, man.

I'm happy to be here. Yeah, man. Yeah, yeah. Well, keep the wild place is wild because that's where the bears live. First Lights fieldwear collection is made for the work that happens long before opening day and continues when the season ends. Products built for early mornings, full days in real use. Hard wearing where they need to be versatile where it matters. No shortcuts.

Just gear designed for the work that earns the season. Built to perform, built to last. Check out. First Light's new fieldwear gear at firstlight.com. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.